In a world where people are increasingly conscientious of the environment, it is important to be aware of the impact your product has. 

In this week’s podcast, Austin Simms joins Matt to help us explore the different ways our products can reduce our environmental impact and make an effort to become more sustainable.

ABOUT AUSTIN

Austin is the co-founder of Dayrize.

After 20+ years spent working in senior positions at major corporations like Nike, Philips and Brooks Running, Austin had a desire to use his skills to address climate change. With a strong commercial background, he believed that putting the power in consumers hands was important to make real change. He recognized that the first thing that consumers needed to make positive change was access to information to make better decisions, which is why he started Dayrize to make impact assessment transparent for business and consumers.  

Enjoying listening to our conversation about the environmental impact of your products :-)

For complete show notes, transcript and links to our guest, check out our website: www.ecommerce-podcast.com.

Welcome to the eCommerce podcast with

me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

Now, the eCommerce podcast is all about helping you to deliver eCommerce wow.

And to help us do just that today I am gonna be talking with Austin Simms

from Dayrize why it's time you knew the environ environmental im of your product.

But before I jump into this fantastic conversation with Austin, let

me suggest a few other eCommerce podcast episodes to listen to that.

I think you're gonna enjoy, uh, try listening to Will Laurenson's episode

where we talked about what we asked, is customer value optimization, the real

silver bullet of eCommerce, and also check out my fantastic conversation with Rishi.

Rawat, uh, on how to optimize conversion rates using bio psychology.

Just head over to eCommercepodcast.net.

You can get those episodes for free.

There's a search feature on there and you can find them.

No problem.

Now this episode is brought to you by the eCommerce cohort, which helps you to

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So without further ado, here is my fantastic conversation with the

brilliant and inspiring Austin Simms.

So welcome to the eCommerce podcast with, uh, me Matt Edmundson.

I am with Austin, who is the co-founder of Dayize Now after 20 years spent

working and senior positions at major corporations like Nike.

Phillips and Brooks running.

They all seem to be centered around athletics a little bit.

Uh, Austin has, uh, had a desire to use his skills to address this

huge issue of climate change.

Now with a strong commercial background, he believed that

putting the power in the consumer's hands was important to make real.

And I wanna know why, and we're gonna get into all of that.

Uh, astin recognize that the first thing that consumers needed to

make positive change was access to information to make better decisions,

which is why he co-founded day rise to make, uh, impact assessment

transparent for business and consumers.

Yes, we are gonna get into all of that, uh, as we ask the question and

talk about all stuff to do with, uh, uh, environmental impact eCommerce.

Your products, the whole nine yards.

So Austin, welcome to the show.

Great to have you.

Thank you for joining me.

Thanks, Matt.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, no worries.

Now you, uh, are, uh, as we were talking before we hit the record, but, and you're

an, you're an Aussie living in Amsterdam.

How did that happen?

Uh, yeah, I think the, my career got me here.

I was actually in your intro, you talked about sports being a bit of a theme.

I worked at Nike for, for quite a long time.

I guess it was sort of my, my learning patch, but most of what I know, uh,

and I started out in Australia and then I got transferred to, to Amsterdam,

uh, back in 2007 with my wife.

And I think we, we got stuck here to be honest, I think.

Um, so my wife's Australian as well.

But I think the lifestyle in Europe, um, is just something

that we, we really enjoyed.

So we've got a family now and we are pretty rooted here.

So Australia's still home.

Um, it still feels like home when they go back there, but I think

we're pretty, we're pretty well ensconced in European lifestyle.

That's really, cause your parents are English, right?

So you kind of, they go to Australia and you've come back to Europe.

You've not quite made it all the way back to England yet.

Yeah,

it's quite funny actually.

See my, we did immigrate when I was young, so I was one year old when I went to

to Australia, so I was born in England.

Not that I tell many people that, um, cause I'm fully Australian.

Uh, but yeah, we did make it back to Europe, but my wife actually

has Croatian background as well.

So both of us have sort of a European event and I think growing up, um, In

Australia, like the Europe was always this magical place, and the fact that we

live in Europe after 15 years and can be in Spain or Italy or London in a couple

of hours is still, the novelty hasn't worn off, so we still really enjoy that.

That's fas.

Now, do you But do you actually do that though?

Because I mean, I've lived in England a long time and I've

traveled most of the world.

I've seen a lot of it, and it's a beautiful place, but rarely, and people

say to me all the time, Well, it's great, you know where you live because you can

jump on a plane, you can be in Paris, you can be in Barcelone, you can be,

And I kind of sit there and go, Yeah, but I, I, I rarely actually do that.

I dunno why, but I rarely just go, wow, beg, I'm just gonna go

to Barcelona for the weekend.

I would say we do certainly not as much as we used to pre-kids.

Um, but I think it's, that's always the case, isn't it, that you never sort

of, uh, appreciate your own backyard.

And so when people tell you that they've been to Australia, to me, most people

that have been to Australia have seen far more of Australia than I have because

I've never been to Air Rock, I've never been to Broom, I've never been to Darwin.

And obviously, but when you travel there, you, you, you feel compelled

to actually go and visit these things.

So I think it's just the.

We, if you come from somewhere, you probably don't appreciate it as much,

but we, we, we are pretty good at it.

As I said, the novelty hasn't worn off, so we generally get somewhere

once a month to, to see something new.

Yeah, no, that's fascinating.

So how did you, um, how did you sort of head down this road then,

uh, of the environmental cause?

Because, um, and, and maybe this is just something that I have a misinterpretation

on, which I'm, I'm totally.

Aware of, um, I would not have associated brands like Nike with big on being

big on, uh, environmental change or, uh, sustainability side of things.

So how did you, how did you sort of enter that route?

I think it's probably more, more life stage for me.

So, uh, I was actually away on holiday with, with my co-founder.

Um, and how it actually started was our, we both had kids about the same

age and our kids were playing in the, in the swimming pool and they were

playing on this flotation device.

I think it was a unicorn.

Um, but this big device, and obviously they were having fun with it, and

we got into a big debate about.

Whether that was sustainable or not.

Like with this, this bit of plastic that we just bought, it's

probably gonna be used for a week.

Um, there was a great sense of enjoyment our kids were having, but

you know, is it really something that we can consider, consider sustainable?

And what are all the different inputs and anomalies that you need to include in

that to assess something as sustainable?

And after two days of debating, I think what we realized was that we didn't know.

We had no idea and we were just debating our separate points of view.

And so that, that really triggered something in us,

um, to explore that further.

So that, that started a pretty long journey that got us to where we are

today, sort of almost four years later.

But I think for me personally, it was more.

I'd worked in big corporate jobs for quite a while, um, and I was

looking for the next challenge.

My, my kids are young, um, so they, they've got two Greta Thunbergs

at home that constantly remind me what a crappy job we're doing

in terms of saving the planet.

So it was more, it was more just a can, can I use the, the knowledge

that I've had, the connections that I have, and the skillsets that I have

to actually turn that to, to something that's doing good for the planet.

Now we, now, I'm not an activist, um, so I'm learning a lot at the

same time, and I've learned a lot over the last three years.

But we've surrounded ourselves as really intelligent people

that understand this space.

Um, so that's really helped on my journey.

So it's more about a life stage.

I mean, we are not a charity, we're a for profit business.

Like we really think that.

Business has a really big role to play.

And then if you can actually make be more sustainable commercially and

a commercially incentive both for us and the businesses that we work

for, that's really gonna accelerate.

Yeah.

No,

it's, it's interesting you say that actually, you know about not

being an activist, but being a business and we can do something.

I, I, I dunno if you come across the Alderman report, which has come out

recently, um, the Alderman Trust report, which has quite an interesting piece

of research, which has been done.

Um, and in that they interviewed.

I, I wanna say around 40,000 people across the globe.

There's a lot of people, there's more people than I would talk

to, I have to be honest with you.

Um, and they, they surveyed a, she load of people from all

kinds of different nations.

And what was interesting was, um, one in two people that they surveyed

believed that businesses are not doing enough to address climate change

and income, equal income inequality.

Um, and only 40% of the people thought that the, um, Uh, information that

businesses put out about these topics was actually trustworthy, which I thought was

interesting given our conversation today.

But three out of four people expect CEOs to shape and lead conversation on

climate change and wage inequality, right?

Some two key big issues that keep coming up.

Um, and so I, I find this fascinating that here you are, right as.

Lifestyle change.

It, it's interesting.

It all starts off by looking at a unicorn.

I'm sure there's all kind of jokes that we could, , we could make

about how many unicorns have started something quite, quite interesting.

Um, but it, it is interesting to me that here you are using your, um,

Position in business to shape and drive something like climate change.

Um, and this is actually now what the world is expecting more and more.

And I, or at least it is from this report.

I, I dunno if this is your, your findings

as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think, uh, I think we're all just more aware generally, but certainly

as the, you know, younger generations grow up, And become, you know, bigger

parts of our society and have bigger spending power that just accelerates it.

And, and I think they're right.

I think business does have a leadership role to play in terms

of addressing climate change.

It, it needs to, and, and believe me, that every, every CEO of a

big company has sustainability in their top three priorities.

They know that they need to change.

Now, the issue that they've got is how, how do they do it?

Cause it's, it's, it's not easy and, and it's nuanced to do that.

So, um, we're certainly seeing the, the lead from consumers, uh, really driving

pressure on business, but also investors.

I mean, you see a lot of.

Investment companies now, even the big ones, um, make sure that

the reporting of their companies aren't just financial reporting,

but it's impact reporting as well.

So businesses getting pressure from consumers.

Um, it's also getting pressure from shareholders and

investors and from employees.

Like even, you know, as these younger generation hits the workforce,

they wanna make sure that they're aligning themselves with companies

that have shared values with them.

Um, and a lot of that has to do with fairness and sustainability.

And, and we.

We define sustainability broadly.

It's not just about the environment, it's the social sustainability.

So you talk about a fair wage, that's really important for us

as well, and we measure that.

So definitely there's a, there's a, there's a growing trend

of consumers wanting that and driving that pressure on business.

Um, governments slow to catch up and, and government is designed to act slowly.

The whole mechanism of government, whether it's a country or whether

it's the eu, they're designed to make slow decisions because they

have far reaching consequences.

But the go government's catching up and the EU released their latest.

Directive early this year that starts to provide that framework for companies that

they need to report, um, aggressively and openly about their sustainability.

So it's coming, but at the moment it is consumer led.

Um, and I think they're right.

I think that businesses aren't doing enough.

Um, but they're trying.

And I would say that there's, there's definite intent.

There's real intent, and we, we speak to.

Big businesses, large and small.

So we've got over 500 businesses that we work with.

We work with some of the biggest brands in the world and small

companies that make 10, 10 products.

Um mm-hmm . And I would say that there's definite intent to get better.

Just the big guys have a longer journey to get there.

And you would be amazed when the uniqueness of our technology is that we

can measure impact at a product level.

So for every individual consumer product, we can isolate what that impact

is, and brands just don't know their.

Um, yeah, in terms of what the actual impact is.

So there's a real role for us to play and, and other companies like us to bring

that level of transparency to the brands.

Cause it's only once the brands have that level of transparency that they can

bring that forward to consumers as well.

So, um, I, uh, sort of full disclosure, obviously I run

my own businesses and I sit here and I have conversations with my kids

about, you know, sustainability and climate change and, um, fast fashion

and I mean, all the, you know, all the words come out and some of them I

understand and some of them I don't.

And I'm trying to, I'm trying to play catch up a little bit, but, um, You

talk about, um, there is a real desire.

I, I think, and I agree that there, there is a real desire

amongs people to do things better and write for climate change.

Um, the, the, the, the key thing you said was how do we do that, right?

So, um, here I am running say, a medium size eCommerce business or you know,

people are listening to the show, they're running small business mom and pop

businesses and all that sort of stuff.

I think, is this something that actually they can get involved with?

Or is it, do we have to sort of put everything in the hands of the

larger corporations like the Nikes and the Phillips and the Brooks

running and all that sort of stuff?

Or is, I guess, how do we, how do we, as the smaller guys get

involved is probably what I'm

asking.

I really think, um, sustainability in six plus

years will be a hygiene factor.

I think everything will be regulated and standardized and it'll be hard

to use it as a differentiator.

I really think for small and medium sized business, there's a real

opportunity at the moment to use it as a differentiator, particularly against the

big guys because you can change faster.

Yeah.

Um, and, and adapt.

And I think those brands and companies that can make that change now and

really put it at the center of what they do are, are gonna set themselves

up for long term success as a brand.

So I think there's absolutely opportunity.

What, what we've done, what we've very been very conscious of as

we've thought about our business model is, Um, how do we make

sustainability accessible for everyone?

Yeah, That's from a consumer level and from a business level as well.

So we all, we talk all about democratizing sustainability and making it very

accessible because really at the moment, the standard way to actually understand

the impact of a consumer product, it's called a life cycle assessment.

And what you do with that is you actually map the actual input of all the

different, uh, materials and ingredients of your products, the manufacturing

process, and you actually map it precisely Now, it takes about three

or four months to do for one single product and toss you about $20,000.

So that only enables the big brands to do that, so that that's when it is

only in the hands of the big brands.

What we've done, and it took us two and a half years to develop

this, we've developed a technology that can rapidly approximate that.

So we, if you give us enough data sources about where your product is

made, uh, what are the materials that go into it, what's the weight of those

materials, you know, where it gets sold.

We can actually accurately approximate a life cycle assessment

that can fill in those plans.

And so now we take that what is a three month process and we

make it, you know, 30 minutes.

We take it from 20,000 pounds to $60 per product, or 60 pounds per products.

And now of a sudden everyone can get access to the same level of information.

And the reason why the big brands are working for us is because.

I don't wanna spend $30,000 per product either.

They wanna get a rapid approximation Yeah.

Which we can provide them.

Um, so at at 60 pounds of product that scales for them because they've

got tens of thousands of products.

And for the small brands that have, uh, that have 5, 10, 15 products,

it also becomes affordable for them.

So we, we are really big on making sure that this isn't just for the big guys,

that whether it's a smaller e-commerce platform that works with brands and

they can work with their brands to get the score or the brands the.

This level of transparency and, and, and we're all about transparency again,

the, we talk about the consumer demand.

Well, consumers just want these transparency.

I just wanna know, it's, it's crazy that it's 2022 and when we

go shopping for anything, we still dunno the impact of the products.

Yeah.

We still can't compare it.

I mean, we've had nutritional labeling on the back of product for 20 plus

years, and we're all more conscious of sustainability to varying degrees.

But it's important to some degree to all, if not most of us.

Um, and yet we really don't have the, the transparency to make better

informed decisions and it's coming.

And now we've got a tool that can actually accelerate that, um, for both

small, medium, and large businesses.

Well, I want to talk to you about your tool actually in a, in a will get that

in a minute, But I just wanna pick up on this point of transparency and, and

actually this idea of differentiation.

Uh, so the small, uh, mom and.

eCommerce store, the medium eCommerce store.

Actually, you can still use this as a real differentiator, but that has to be

more than just saying we're sustainable.

Right?

Uh, and we are, we are big fans of, and I see this a lot on websites,

you know, one tree planted for every order and all this sort of stuff.

And I think, um, how do you stop it being gimmicky and how do you start it

being genuine Do, you know, what I mean, rather than just putting some kind of.

Picture of a windmill and you know, we're, we're environmentally sustainable,

sensible people, um, to actually being something that is genuine.

Um, unbelievable.

Because this was one of the things that came out in that report.

People write this stuff on the website, but most people don't believe it.

And so how do we, how do we create that, that genuine sort of information?

How do we, how do, how do we help our customers sort of see that we

actually, we really are genuine?

Yeah,

I think, um, it's just, it's around action, isn't it?

So transparency's a big word for us.

So we, we, we, we are independent from the brands.

So in terms of credibility, um, we, we do an independent verification of the brands.

So it's not the actual brands rating themselves.

I think that's the issue with a lot of sustainability claims.

They're self clients.

So it's either the company saying that we're sustainable, um, or, or, or the.

So positioned as sustainable, We actually independently verify that.

So we have no, there's no upside to us in terms of how sustainable that product is.

So it's independently verified.

Um, the, the rigor that we go through is, is, is, is quite, um, Is is

quite deep and we'll talk about the technology in, in a bit, I'm sure.

But, um, rather than just saying you're sustainable, you need to prove it.

And if you've got a, a website that actually enables consumers

for the first time to really understand the impact between two

products that they're comparing and compare that on sustainability.

Now they may choose the product that's not as sustainable as the other one

cuz there's lots of different factors that come into any purchase decision.

You know, you know the color, the size, the access, whatever it is.

I think consumers just want that level of transparency, and I think

we have a tool that makes that fast and easy to access for companies.

And when you can actually integrate that into your website, you're

not saying you're sustainable.

What you are doing is you're providing consumers the chance to

make informed decisions about the sustainability of products that you

have on your website, and then by definition you become sustainable.

So you don't need to say that you're sustainable, but if you

are all of a sudden introducing.

A tool that easily enables consumers to compare the products that you have,

that really starts to position yourself as quite credible in that space.

Okay,

so listen, uh, we are gonna get into this a whole bunch more.

Don't go anywhere as we just take a moment here from this week's show

sponsors and I'll be back with Austin.

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Uh, so Austin.

Uh, transparency, uh, is a word that you've mentioned.

Um, uh, a fair bit.

And again, I, I just wanna dig into this because what I don't want, I don't want

transparency just to be one of those core company values that people have.

And it doesn't really mean anything.

Do, you know what I mean?

It's one of those sort of buzz business words.

Now, I worked for several years on the board of a PLC here in the uk.

That was a fair trade organiz.

And transparency was one of those big key things.

It's like, how can, how can we trace this product all the way back to its,

uh, you know, its birth and all the different people that have handled it

along the way, and how were they paid and how was it made, and what were the

ingredients used and so on and so forth.

And the more transparent that we could make that cycle.

The, the more we recorded that information, the easier it was to

say, yes, this is a fair traded product because, um, as you know,

fair trade stamped on a product doesn't always mean fair trade.

There's degrees of fairness, shall we say.

Uh, there are some which sort of get through by the skin of their

teeth, and there are some which are sort of, you know, full on fair

trade, but it's the same mark, right?

And there was no differentiator in that sort of level of transparent.

It's the wrong phrase.

There was no differentiator, you were fair trade or you weren't.

And it would, it became very digital.

Uh, whereas my experience here is actually, it's quite analog.

And I'm gonna assume that for most of us, uh, running sort of websites,

we're gonna be analog, aren't we?

We're gonna be somewhere of a, on a sort of a, a scale, uh, of

environmental, Is that a word?

I dunno.

Uh, but Do, you know what I mean?

It's that kind of thing.

So how do we.

Um, what sort of things can we do to, um, as well as obviously using your

system, getting our products rated, but what are some of the other things

that we should think about that, that get us further on that scale?

Not just because we've got a mock, but because actually it's

good for humanity to do so.

Yeah.

Um, I think that's a really good point about eco labels and, um, I

think eco labels serves a real purpose.

A couple of years ago, but now with over 500 eco labels

on the market, it starts to.

Add to the confusion rather than provide clarity.

And, and the issue with eco labels, aside from the fact that there's too many is

exactly what you said, they're binary.

You either are or you aren't.

You are either fair trade or you are not.

And as you say, within that fair trade, there's a scale.

So just to touch on the diff, what's different about our product

quickly is we, we provide that.

So we actually score the products out of a.

So you're not okay that day wise, or you're not, You actually, um,

you know, over five dimensions of sustainability, which are really rigorous.

We rate you on each of those five and you get a score out of a hundred for

each of those five, and then you get an overall score out of a hundred.

So what that does is remove that issue that you talked about there, which is.

Um, you know, that degrees of which you are fair trade.

And do you just getting, or do you not get in?

Well, you can compare products, one's in 81 and one to 62, or one's in 85 and a 78.

Yeah.

Like you can actually now being that level of granularity to really understand it.

And then you can go into as much detail as you want.

And that's the, that's the thing with this that we've found is.

I think everyone's, again, interested in sustainably to some level.

Um, how, how much you are into that, uh, I think is, is dependent on the individual.

But we have a tool that enables you just at a top line to compare

scores and be happy with that score.

Or you can really dive into the detail, understand, well,

why did it get that score?

How did it get that score?

What's that score made up of?

So it depends on the level of granularity that you want, but I think that's a.

Unlock for consumers when we talked about transparency is it's not just a fair

trade logo, it's a actually a really rigorous number that they get that they

can actually compare products with and start to make these better decisions

makes 'em better.

So what are these sort of five dimensions then that you score products on?

Yeah, so, so

the, um, so we're a B2B company, so we work directly with brands.

Um, we do that either directly with the brands themselves or, or via, uh,

retailers and eCommerce platforms.

So we work with a number of small and and large retailers that.

Um, connect us with the brands.

We need the information from the brands to score the products.

So we, we work with the brands.

Um, there's a certain amount of information that we need to get and

we've got a, a, a tool that does that.

And then, and then our technology works in two ways.

The first way is, I touched on it a moment ago, is no brand has.

All the information we capture, we capture about 120 different data

points about about particular product.

So it's all done at a product level.

So for each individual product, you have to fill out a survey, um, no brand.

And we work with some of the biggest brands in the world.

I won't call them out on this podcast.

Um, and small brands, no, no brand has all the information and you'll be

surprised how much limited information, some brands have big brands that you

would expect to know more, and they can be quite discomforting sometimes.

So the first way that our technology works is, okay, you're missing this information.

Um, but we know, cuz you've given us this information, we can pretty

accurately approximate what this is.

Um, so we've got 31 different databases that we call, we call upon.

We've got machine learning that then goes, okay, based on the information

that you're missing, but the information that we have, what's the

right data set for us to call upon?

So the first thing we do is actually fill in all the blanks.

So they give us a complete picture of the products.

Um, so that's the first way it works.

The second way it works is then we pass that information through our five

dimensions of sustainability, and then out of that you get a really detailed

report, um, across those five dimensions about what you're doing well and what

you're not doing well and your impact.

And then there's a consumer, a more simplified version of that report

that's a, that's a consumer widget that then goes onto your website.

We're actually working with some retailers now to put that report in store via QR

codes, but there's a simplified version that codes to consumers, um, and, and the

five dimensions that we measure across.

Is are really important to us cuz it's, it's, it's important that you get a really

holistic view of the product because we talk a lot about carbon and net zero and

that's great that we talk about that.

But carbon's only one measure of sustainability and that's what makes it

so complex is it's, it's multifaceted.

So the five dimensions where you look at are climate

impact, which is carbon, right?

So we look at how much carbon do you, does this product use to source the materials

to manufacture it and to distribute it to the end consumer to be able to give you

a really accurate view of that product.

We look at the ecosystem.

So how does it affect the wildlife around it?

How does it affect the biodiversity?

How much water does it use to actually create this product, which

is, you know, super important.

Um, and then we look at the secularity of the product.

So from the input of the materials to make the product.

So how much of those are reused and recycle, but also at the end of life or

the product, how much of it can be reused?

Um, so you get a real sense of how, how sick it is in

contributing to the circular.

They're the environmental factors that we look at, and

we set it at the, at the front.

We also look at the social factors as well.

So fair pay.

So we look at the livelihoods and the wellbeing, that act of the people

that actually create the product.

So how are people treated through the workforce?

Is, is it fair pay, is their general equality, is their worker protection, Um,

to make sure that the people, uh, who are making the product are also protected.

And the last thing we look at is, is the purpose of the product.

Because you can make a, a really sustainable product, but if it's got

a low purpose, it's still using up a lot of the Earth's resources in a way

that could probably better deployed.

So we look at, you know, is it, is it really something that's, you

know, purposeful for human needs?

And for that we use an extended version of as lows hierarchy of needs.

So we, we assess each of those, you know, they're all score out of a hundred.

They all contribute 20% to an overall score.

Um, and what that does again is two things.

You get really detailed reports that, that, you know, brand manufacturers

can use to actually assess their product to make better products.

But there's a really engaging consumer output piece that then for the first

time, enable consumers to understand that impact and make quick comparisons

between products to make better decisions.

Wow.

So that's quite, When you say, how did you come up with those

sort of five things then?

Cause that is quite thorough.

It is quite holistic.

It's not focusing in on one thing.

Has this sort of been a process of trial and error for you guys?

Yeah, we,

we, um, So I think I said at the outset, I'm

not a sustainability expert.

Um, my, my, one of my co-founders was, and we found others.

Uh, we, we ended up with four co-founders and two, two of

them are sustainability experts.

Um, and then we got 20 of the world's, or certainly Europe's best sustainability

experts at college to actually build it.

So they worked on it for two and a half years, um, to develop it.

And, but we also have a really rigorous.

Um, testing programs.

So we actually send out the methodology to leading academics, um, and

NGOs and get them to critique it.

So there's certain NGOs that are experts in circularity, so we got them to input

into it, some expert on greenhouse gases.

So it was a really robust process that took us two and a half years to

develop and we continue to refine it.

So each year we update it, um, because sustainability science

doesn't stand still, it continually.

But there's, you know, we, we recently got audited by sgs, which is the

sort of global standard for auditing.

And they verified that we're the fastest, most holistic and accurate way

to measure impact at a product level.

So that's a good place for us to be.

Um, but we wanna continue to get better.

Um, so we constantly relooking at the methodology, taking feedback from

partners and also NGOs and lending academics to make sure that it's,

you know, it's as rigorous as it can.

Wow.

I mean, how you've done it, but I've no idea.

I, I take my hat off to you for actually doing it because I, I

personally wouldn't know where to start with something like that.

Uh, and, and here you are, you've got a sort of full on blown product, um, that

took two and a half years to get together.

And I noticed actually, um, you put on LinkedIn earlier that

tonight you are headed to the.

B c C awards, which I, this is something that I didn't even know existed,

was it's the Netherlands British Chamber of Commerce, uh, which has

been around apparently since 1891.

Uh, and the awards in Amsterdam where you guys have been nominated

for 2022 Technological Innovation Award alongside companies.

Uh, van, uh, the bike, uh, the Co cola company, the Heinen Company,

Teco, uh, Teco, Tesco, Unilever.

I mean, there are some big names that you've been named amongst

to get this sort of tech award.

Um, and I'm assuming this is related to this algorithm, machine learning,

whatever it is you've got working across these sort of five areas.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so, so that's, that's a nice feather in our cap, to be honest,

to be sort of mentioned in the same award ceremony as, as, as those guys.

Uh, but what, what we've built is really hard.

Like it's not easy.

It's a really difficult piece of technology.

I honestly, um, we thought it would take us six months to build.

That's what we told our investors.

Um, and it's just so complex, um, that it just got bigger and bigger

on us and we decided to go all in rather than take shortcuts.

So, and I think that gets recognized, um, by the, by the size of the

brands that we're working with.

And we're working with a lot of those brands that you mentioned in

terms of scoring those, scoring their products, um, but also at innovation.

We were in London at the Retail Technology show, uh, maybe four weeks ago, and we

won best innovation at the whole show.

So, We're seeing that level of recognition, not just from the partners

that we work with, but also sort of industry, and that's, that's great.

That's great for the team to see that because, You know, we were,

we're a purpose driven company even though we're, we are for profit, you

know, we, we do believe that we have a role to help us all make better

decisions, both business and consumers.

So for us to be at this award ceremony with these guys is, is, uh, yeah,

it's a bit of a thrill to be honest.

So, I'm wearing black tie tonight.

I think it's been a while since I've been invited to, I might have to, to to get

my wedding suite from about 20 years ago.

Just

breathe in when you were just breathe.

That's what I have to do.

There it is.

Um, uh, you are quoted as saying, um, Climate Doomism is an easy out

and leads to climate in action.

What is climate Doomism and why is it an easy way out?

And you, this is something you put on LinkedIn with an article from the bbc.

Uh, just refresh you where you actually said this.

Yeah, this is a big one for me, um, because.

I think sustainability is, is an overused and misused term.

I think, um, it's sort of become a lot, it's become quite opaque in terms of

what something is that is sustainable.

Mm-hmm.

. And I think the, the context around sustainability is so negative, uh,

and so makes us so guilt led in terms of making us all feel guilty about

what we're doing or what we are not.

Um, and guilt is in a positive emotion.

It doesn't lead to positive consumer action.

And so what we are trying to do is, is lean into solutions rather

than talking about the problem.

We all know the problem.

Um, and, and aside from a few of us, I think we all can accept that climate

change is real and it's not coming.

It's here now.

And, and we all have a role to do as much as we point the finger at business.

Um, we all have a role to do and we, we're a solutions based

business, so we deliberately.

Don't point the finger at organizations that are not doing well.

What, what our job is to do is to partner with them and, and help them get better.

So whether it's, you know, not, not pointing the finger at business as being

a solution or for consumers, giving them an easy step to become more sustainable,

um, that's what we're all about.

How do we find a path for both consumers and business?

Because we do expect.

Consumers and business to get better.

But unless we give them the tools, and again, it comes back

to that word, transparency.

Unless we can help businesses really understand the impact of their products,

it's hard for us to expect them to change.

And same for consumers.

We constantly, You know, even in the report that you mentioned previously,

consumers wanna make better decisions, but how can you, I mean, how do

you possibly make a good decision about what product to buy if you

don't have the right information?

So, um, what we're trying to do is, is just rather than talk about

sustainability and talk about the issues, shift the conversation to what

can we actually do and be much more about solutions for both consumers and.

That's really good because like you say, it's easy.

The whole doomism thing is very much, I can't do anything problem so big.

Makes nos.

How is your, um, I'm, I'm curious to know, um, how, since doing all of

this right, and, and getting much more involved, cuz you, you, it sounds like

you started out like someone like me, you had an interest in it, but you weren't

an activist and you weren't an expert.

How has your own personal consumer behavior changed in

the last few years as day rises?

Risen, I suppose, I mean, as it, as it's sort of, as it's growing, you've, you've

understood these things more and more.

What are some of the big changes you have been noticing in your own buying behavior?

Um, uh, certainly makes you more conscious.

Um, I think the hardest thing that I find to give up is travel.

We talked about that already.

Um, so my, my, my footprint is pretty big, um, or bigger than I, than I'd like it

to be in full transparency when it comes to travel, but that's a, that's something

that, that I'm really passionate about.

I think my, um, I think your shopping habits change in

terms of how much you order.

Just knowing that, you know, when you, when you, when you

know that a pair of genes.

Takes 20,000 liters to make.

You can't unknow it once you know it, it's, it's, it's really difficult.

So, fa fashion is a big one.

Um, which, which we know it's, it's a hot button and it's an easy one to point the

finger at, but, um, I think I've probably.

Gone back by third in terms of the amount of clothes that I buy.

Just, just knowing what the impact is.

Um, and again, not a judgment call on the industry or people that buy fashion.

It's just a reality that it's a really proportionate to how much people actually

spend on fashion and the impact of it.

It's, it's a real, it's a real hot button.

Um, and then the same for food, to be honest, I, I, uh, I probably

changed my diet a bit too, so I, I've cut down a lot on, on meat,

um, in terms of my consumption.

Um, and again, once, once, you know, the sort of overall impact of it.

So, and again, I, I, I'm not one to preach because I think we all have our own path.

Um, again, what our company's all about is just giving you the tools so we won't

tell you what to buy and not what to buy.

We, we'll just tell you what the impact of the products are.

Yeah.

And then you can make your own decision.

But the good thing, good thing is once you, once you know, you can't

unknow and not in a bad way, it just, it just, you know, it slips into your

consciousness and, and then you will naturally start to make better decisions.

Yeah, no, it's fascinating.

I, one of the companies that, um, I'm, I have the privilege of being involved

with is, uh, a supplement company.

And, uh, specifically aimed at the vegan and vegetarian market.

And so I've come to, uh, understand the market much better in recent years.

And it's interesting how 20 years ago when you look at why people became vegans,

it was because what, We just don't like the whole quality to animal things.

That's why we, we, we don't do the, you know, we have vegans and vegetarians.

It's all because of the animals.

What has changed it seems to me over the last 20 years is actually, that's

really important still as an issue for a lot of people, but there are bigger

issues now in people's minds and it is tied in with actually, uh, Personally

being more healthy, but also, um, the health of the planet and so make,

and it's interesting hearing you talk about eating less meat as a deliberate

choice to create a healthier planet.

And this is what we're seeing more and more now that actually sustaina

sustainable issues like the health of the planet are driving individual

consumer behavior in ways that we, we just didn't predict five or 10 years ago.

Right.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And I, I think that's a good example too, like, It goes back to that

sort of climate doomsday or it's all nothing like no one expects everyone

to go vegetarian overnight or become vegan, and that's not what it's about.

It's about.

Just making more informed choices.

And then you may continue to eat meat as much as you, as much as you

are at the moment, once you know the impact of it, or you may not.

But I think it's about making those simple choices to do a little bit

better each, each time you do something.

And that's, we talk a lot about people becoming paralyzed.

Um, because, you know, as soon as you talk about people becoming vegan, people

go, Oh, that's, that's not for me.

I couldn't do it.

Yeah.

And, and that may be true, but maybe you don't need to

become vegan, but maybe it's.

Three days a week that you don't eat meat and you start to

make those different choices.

So, but you're right.

But I think veganism is a good one because as you say, it was mostly about

animal cruelty sort of five years ago.

I think more, I think if you did a poll, this is me sort of guessing, I think a

lot more people this day would say they've done it because of the environmental

concerns.

Well, it's now the second biggest reason that people become, There you go, vegans.

Um, an animal cor is third, uh, in the research that we've got.

Um, and there may be some research that contradicts me.

I can only go on what I like.

Yeah, sure.

But that sounds about right, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does.

And I, I'd like, I have to be honest with you, it's um, it's a

really interesting one, isn't it?

And the different types of food that we eat and the different clothes

that we wear, we're starting to become much more aware that actually

all of a sudden this has an impact.

A cheap t-shirt in the store here.

Something's not right.

Further down the supply chain for to, for that to happen.

And we're starting to wake up to that fact and ask questions.

Go, Hang on a minute, How is this so cheap?

Uh, and, and, and what does that actually mean in reality?

Um, I'm not necessarily saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's time that

we ask those kind of questions.

Um, and I think bringing this back to eCommerce, As business owners, we need to

understand that this actually is driving consumer behavior more and more and more

and more, um, from we did, I mean, can I tell you about a really big cockup that

we did maybe illustrate this process?

Um, so we introduced onto our website on the supplement website

a feature called Subscribe and Save because we wanted to reward our most.

Loyal customers, the customers that keep coming back and the subscription

model is a great business model and was like, what we didn't do when we

launched this business model, um, was make it easy for the consumer

to choose how much they wanted to be shipped on the subscriber save.

It was almost like it was prescriptive.

It's like, no, this is what you can have and you can have it every 60

days, like an Olympic kind of a thing.

And the amount of customers that got in touch with us and said, Hang on a minute.

I, I wanna ship less, not more.

Right.

I, I, I like being able to save money.

I, I don't mind subscribing.

I just don't want it every month.

I want every, I want six months worth of stuff every six months.

Right.

And so this was a major piece of learning for us.

You know, we should have thought this through a whole lot better than we did.

And it was thanks to our consumers getting in touch with us, our customers going,

Hang on, you know, we are not satisfied.

There was almost like a little bit of a revolt going on, Uh, uh, because, because

we'd made it more difficult to be, um, sustainable from their point of view.

And so I think as eCommerce entrepreneurs, we have to be

aware of these issues, don't we?

We have to be aware for our own businesses that people do care and

we therefore need to care as well and make it easy for people to make solid.

Informed choices, uh, and make it easy for people to feel like

they're doing a good thing.

Yeah, and what I would say is consumers are forgiving.

They're not expecting us all to be perfect.

Um, they don't expect us to go from zero to a hundred much as much as

our own behavior won't get there.

But what they want is, And I think your, your example then illustrates this.

They want choice, they want transparency.

So they don't necessarily expect all your products or your products on

your eCommerce platform to be perfect.

But if you give them the tools that they can actually understand

it, they feel empowered, they feel like you're adding value for them.

So I wouldn't say this is, this is not just for sustainable

websites, this is for any website that sells products and just just.

Dimension that you can provide value to your customers.

You know, if you are the only one, I mean, if your website sells something that a lot

of other websites do, but you're the only one that's actually giving the consumer

the information about the sustainability, that's a real point of difference for you.

That you can actually talk to consumers, and we know consumers value

it, and we know also it's only one dimension that they're looking at.

They're looking at a whole host of things, but it's a real value add that can help

you differentiate yourself to your.

Yeah.

No, that's brilliant.

Listen, Austin, it's been great having you on the show.

You have done something, which I have to be honest with you, I remember sitting

in the boardroom five years ago on the PLC saying, We need a fair trade index.

We need to be able to score everybody's product, not just ours,

but everybody's Mars, everybody.

I wanted like to give them a fair trade number so we understood

what it actually meant rather than just a fair trade symbol.

I wanted a number and we.

We just, we couldn't figure out how to make it work.

But you have done that, and that's remarkable.

And so, uh, thank you for doing that.

I'm, I'm stoked, man.

And it's great to have you on here and tell the good folks listening to their

eCommerce podcast all about day rise.

So how do they, how do they find out more?

How do they reach out to you?

How do they connect with you?

Yeah,

thanks Matt.

So, uh, we, we've got our website, which is day rise.io

and that's day Rise with a z.

Um, or, or feel free to contact me directly@austindayrise.com.

That's awesome.

And we will of course put, uh, Austin's website, links and emails

and LinkedIn profile in the show note.

She can reach out to him and connect, uh, with him.

But, um, I'm sure he'd love to hear from you, uh, and give you some wonderful help

and advice, uh, on how to get started.

But, um, Austin, thank you so much for joining us.

Man's been a real pleasure,

Matt.

Thank you.

Really enjoy.

. Matt Edmundson: So there you have it.

What a fantastic conversation.

Huge.

Thanks again to Austin for joining me.

Very inspirational.

Uh, v.

Very doable.

Right?

So thanks again, Austin.

Brilliant.

And also, let me give a big shout out to today's show

sponsor the eCommerce cohorts.

Do head over to eCommerce cohort.com for more information about this new

type of mastermind for eCommerce that you can and should join now.

Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast from because,

well, you know the answer.

We've got some great conversations lined up and I don't want you to.

Any of them, and just in case no one has told you today, let

me be the first person to do it.

You my friend.

Oh, awesome.

Utterly, utterly awesome.

The eCommerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.

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The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole,

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Produced and Magicifiedight and all that kind of good stuff by Josh

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Must be real.

Uh, that's it for me.

Thanks for joining me.

Have a fantastic week.

See you next time.