Episode Summary: This episode started as an exploration on the dichotomy between celebrity activism and personal lifestyle choices, particularly focusing on key influencers’ environmental efforts versus their use of private jets.  

It debates whether such actions make celebrities hypocrites or if their broader impact justifies these choices. The discussion also touches on the effectiveness of carbon offsets and alternatives to flying, highlighting the complexities and personal decisions involved in addressing climate change. 

The conversation then extends to systemic issues like transportation infrastructure and personal habits, emphasizing collective action over individual perfection.

Article in the New York Times After Refusing to Fly, Climate Researcher Loses His Job

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You can find out more in the Carbon Almanac page 164 and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 246

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson, Tonya Downing and Kristina Horning.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Tonya is from Durham in North Carolina, she is involved in Personality-driven digital marketing for small businesses in the US.  

Kristina has a background in architecture and engineering. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

I'm from Prague.

3

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

4

Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

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Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

6

Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

7

Welcome to Carbon Sessions.

8

A podcast with Carbon Conversations

for every day with everyone

9

from everywhere in the world.

10

In our conversations, we share ideas,

perspectives, questions, and things we

11

can actually do to make a difference.

12

So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions because it's not too late.

13

Hi, I'm Christina.

14

Hi, I'm Jen.

15

Hi, I'm Tanya.

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Hi, I'm Leakey.

17

I would like to discuss a very interesting

topic, and this is something that is

18

very dear to my mind because I'm a

very, very big fan of Leonardo DiCaprio,

19

even since he was on the Titanic.

20

I mean, I was young, but yeah,

so I've been a very, very

21

big fan of his ever since.

22

And the past few years, he is

very well known for being a

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very active climate activist.

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He has a couple of NGOs, I think, and

he raised a lot of money, and he does

25

films and documentary on climate change

and environmental issues in general.

26

But he has been called out as a

hypocrite sometimes because he

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sometimes flies on private jets.

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And I think it's, I don't

know, is he a hypocrite?

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I don't know.

30

I don't know what to think about it.

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And so that's why today we're going to

talk about Private Jet, Lang Private Jet.

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I've been a fan of his since he was in

What's Eating Gilbert Grape when he was

33

a teenager, which is an amazing show.

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And then I just watched Killers of

the Flower Moon, uh, two nights ago.

35

What a show fan as well.

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And yeah, I wonder about that, you know,

sometimes I wonder if it's safety, if

37

it's efficiency, if it's anonymity.

38

If it's just easier than getting

stopped 5, 000 times by adoring fans.

39

I wonder if there are balances in

the lives of some of these people

40

who are climate conscious to offset.

41

Um, so I have lots of wonderings,

no answers, lots of wondering.

42

Yeah.

43

So I, I think about this too, Nikki.

44

I think it's a really nuanced conversation

because their safety is maybe in play.

45

And.

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Does it even make sense

for them to fly commercial?

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Uh, you know, we see people on

flights bullying flight attendants.

48

They're the people that are

supposed to be on the plane.

49

Imagine if a celebrity was on your

plane whose political standings

50

you didn't agree with or something.

51

, not necessarily us that we would

point, but just, you know, you

52

could see that somebody that

may be a fear in their mind.

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I don't know.

54

Why do we care that some

celebrities fly on private jet?

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Why do we even care about that?

56

There's even, I think it's a student or

something, who has um, who has a website

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or a Twitter thread where he tracks the

cerebral palsy's private jet journeys.

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So why do people care so much about

cerebral palsy's flying on private jets?

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I think that they're just, they're in

the public eye, you know, they've got

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a massive boweling, they've got fans,

they've got platforms, social media

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platforms, so they're just very visible.

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, so we kind of look to them, especially

when they're some of the top polluters in

63

the world, just with their private jets.

64

So I think, yeah, \ there's a

lot of pressure because of that.

65

And people care what

they eat for breakfast.

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So that's true.

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I think also it's the climate change

is such a large issue and picking up

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one simple thing that is trackable.

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And that can be shown very easily

through numbers, how much pollution,

70

what will happen if we stop that.

71

That for people, that's kind of an in

a way crutch, it's like, okay, at least

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I can do something with this big issue.

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And, uh, might be misguided, but, uh,

might be there, okay, at least something.

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At least give out their information.

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So I think it's also a

little bit of the panic.

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What can I do?

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How can I change this?

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But also I think that celebrities have

such a big, immense power of influence

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on people's decision and action

that somehow it's their duty to be.

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You know, to behave and be, be the

right guy and play the right role.

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And so I guess that we expect celebrities

to be perfect in every single way, right?

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But it's hard.

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So this way they're not perfect.

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That way it's like, Oh, they're humans.

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They do something that is not okay.

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And some of them are vegetarian or

vegan and have made other choices.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And, you know, a lot of them

will buy carbon offsets.

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I know that Taylor Swift does, she buys

double the carbon offsets, but that's also

90

a very complicated topic, you know, on

if they actually are helping the earth.

91

You know, there's, there's different

levels of quality in carbon offsets.

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I read that she could have bought

a single carbon offset for 1.

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50, and so that's likely very

low quality carbon offset.

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So it would kind of be on her to look

at the projects they're doing and

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find high quality project to support.

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Did you explain that with one

tweet, she managed to get 50

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million people registered to vote?

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Yes.

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I think it was during a recent election,

presidential election in the US, and

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she sent out one Instagram post simply

asking people to register to vote.

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And she got 50 million young people

registered, which is huge because there's

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a big worry about them not registering

to vote, the younger generation.

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Maybe also there's, uh, looking at

other artists, how they deal with the

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issues of their travels and concerts.

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And we don't talk much about people

who are trying to manage, uh, all,

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everything that comes to mind.

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With the concert and travel and people

buying tickets and people's behavior

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during the concert and after concert.

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So, like, I think YouTube

does, makes an effort.

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I think there was

Coldplay, uh, in the tour.

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I think it was last year or

two years ago in the tour.

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They have, like, a whole website for,

to, you know, to mitigate the impact of,

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of the carbon footprint of the concert.

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And they have some very funky things like,

you know, um, I think there was a dance

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floor and on the dance floor, the energy

produced by people dancing on dance floor,

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it goes back to the, you know, to the

light and it's, I mean, , it's not a lot

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of energy, I assume, because it's, uh, I

think there's a lot of losses along the

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way and, um, and I think that this kind

of concert requires a lot of energy, a lot

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of lights, but you know, it's a good sign.

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And I think they try to do a lot of things

like, you know, work with a sustainable or

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certified, uh, suppliers wherever they go.

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And they have, um, I think they also

try to have minimal things that they

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have to move from one site to another.

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And I assume that they

don't fly private jet.

125

I assume that they buy commercial flights.

126

I'm not sure about that, , um, There

are some artists that are doing

127

things in the right direction as well.

128

There's a whole movement called the

No Fly Movement also, where people,

129

artists of all kinds and regular

people are taking alternative methods

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of getting from place to place.

131

It's a lot slower, but I

know, you know, Greta Thunberg

132

hasn't flown since about 2015.

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I mean, she's a climate activist, but

there are others that have joined that.

134

Yeah, I think actually Seth has really

tried to limit his flying, his air travel.

135

But yeah, I think with celebrities,

well, with Coldplay, Leaky,

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you're talking about Coldplay.

137

I think it's, there's just a lot

of shame around what, you know,

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the carbon emissions that we

all produce and what we can do.

139

And so I think it's just good that

Coldplay is showing that they, that

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they care, they understand that

this is an issue and they're trying.

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Um, I think, you know, that, that's great.

142

That's all I'm asking.

143

There's also alternative

ways of producing a concert.

144

I don't know if I mentioned, but

last year I went to an ABBA concert.

145

And, uh, and they were

not performing on stage.

146

They were kind of holograms.

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They don't call it holograms

because, um, they call it,

148

uh, avatar instead of avatar.

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They call it, and so they say it's not

holograms, but to me it's holograms.

150

But it, it was really, really

wonderful because it's like

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they're really performing.

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So just think of this, this kind of

concert in various parts of the world.

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And when it becomes mainstream,

you don't need to move the big

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infrastructure from one side to another.

155

You know, you just move

the digital part of it.

156

Uh, I think this is the

future, could be the future.

157

Yeah, it's hard sometimes, I mean,

it's hard to get from one place

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to the next without getting on

an airplane, unless you have many

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weeks to take the time to get there.

160

Did you read this article, it was on the

New York Times last year, I think, end

161

of last year or sometime, um, in, no, um,

sometime in September, I think, last year.

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about a researcher, a climate

researcher, who is working in Germany.

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He's a researcher for a university

in Germany and he's doing some

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research and has to do some

field work in Papua New Guinea.

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So it's really, really far, somewhere

in between Indonesia and Australia.

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And because he's a climate researcher.

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So he tried not to fly because obviously

it's very difficult for him to fly.

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It's not good for climate change to fly.

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So on the leg from Germany to

Papua New Guinea, he decided

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not to fly as much as possible.

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So he, cars and trains, and I think at

the very end he had to fly twice and

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the whole journey took him 35 days.

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So, , he did everything he could not

to fly, and so it took him 35 days.

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So he did his field work, his research,

and on his way back, he wanted to do the

175

same, but his university said, Oh, you

have to be at work by, I can't remember

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exactly, like in a week or something like

that, but because he doesn't want to fly.

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So there's no way he could

reconcile, you know, what he

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really believed in with his work.

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And so the university fired him, and he

said, No, I won't fly because it's um, I

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will be a hypocrite if I keep on flying.

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And the university, it's, it's completely

insane because there's nothing I

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cannot do during my journey back to

Germany, uh, on the boat or whatever.

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I still can't do my research.

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It's not a good reason for firing me.

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So, I don't know what you think

about it, because this actually,

186

this article was sent to me by

one of my colleagues for work.

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We do need to fly sometimes, and this

specific colleague needs to fly a lot.

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So he asked me, what

do you think about it?

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So my question to you is,

what do you think about it?

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, that's a very tricky one.

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One of the arguments I've heard

is that the plane is going there

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anyway, and it shouldn't go empty.

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It should go as full as possible.

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I mean, that's an argument I've heard.

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I don't know if that's an excuse.

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If people weren't booking the flights,

would they cancel the flights?

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That'd be great.

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Or what's their threshold?

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It goes by weight as well.

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So is that true that the more

people sitting on a plane, the more

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efficient it is, or is it not true?

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I don't know the mechanics of it.

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I think also would be questioned when he

took all these cars and trains, whatever

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he was Doing, unless he was biking,

what is the print all together in those

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35 days compared to the one flight?

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I thought that would be

interesting comparison.

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My guess is that it

will be lower than five.

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Yeah.

209

I don't know because it's so many days.

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I think somebody was looking into

that, not only the footprint of much

211

longer journey, but also Looking at

the keeping the old car versus buying

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new car, what's the footprint in that?

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Is it going to balance?

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It's not a simple question to answer.

215

A couple of weeks ago, I

attended a three day conference.

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It was all day Friday, all day

Saturday, and half of Sunday.

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And it was a conference that used to

be in person, and it used to be one

218

where people flew from all over the

country, well, all over countries to

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join because there were people from

Australia and from India and from U.

220

S.

221

and Canada.

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Um, it's an international

storytelling conference.

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Since COVID, they've done

everything virtually, and you

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don't have to go anywhere.

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And there were probably at least

a hundred people on this platform.

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And it was, you know, a lot of time and

a lot of effort saved and a lot of carbon

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by everybody coming onto this platform

and doing the conference virtually.

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And I wonder how many Organizations have

found that they get more people able to

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join when they don't have to put out all

the time and the effort and the money to

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travel, something I was thinking about.

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Yeah, I think that they need to rethink

their business model, how they work.

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And actually, yes, maybe they could get

two different kind of participations

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or two different conferences.

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Yeah, because in some, in some instances

or in some ways, I'm, I'm very much like,

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And in real, real life type of person.

236

I'd much rather be face to face with

people, you know, snail mail versus

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email, you know, I prefer snail mail.

238

Yeah, there's the question of

like, quality of life too, um,

239

with everything becoming virtual.

240

I just think it's so complicated.

241

And it's so emotional.

242

I think there's just this tendency

to want to game or like, try to

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reduce it to numbers and like,

Well, if you've done this, but you

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haven't done this, I don't know.

245

I think it's such a systems problem

that it's, it's hard for the

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individual to really impact much.

247

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you

because, um, the world or people

248

expect us to be perfect in every

single way and everything we do.

249

And as you said, it's not very fair

to judge people based on one single

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action or something as you do.

251

Because the system is not designed

for, you know, um, earlier, Christina

252

was talking about, what about if we

have, a flight that emit less carbon?

253

The system doesn't want

that at the moment.

254

Um, I was just listening to the

financial results of one, the big

255

competitor of Boeing, , which is

European, it's called EADS, and

256

so they have sold a lot of planes.

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Those old planes, they are not into

new planes because you know, it

258

costs them a lot of money and they

don't want to invest in new planes.

259

So sometimes we do have to fly.

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I mean, yeah, my family is scattered

all around and I have to fly for work

261

because if I don't do that, I will limit

my chances, my ability, my network.

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And also.

263

It's like, you know, I'm not

doing a service to me and I'm not

264

doing service for the work I'm

doing because I will be limited.

265

My circle of influence, you

know, my, my network, you know,

266

the people I meet, I talk to.

267

And so yes, it's not great, but

sometimes you have no choice, I think.

268

Yeah, I think it comes to looking

at are we doing the extremes, no

269

flying or flying whenever I feel

like, and maybe coming in the middle.

270

And go, okay, how can I plan

my year or my connection?

271

Are there any ways not flying

and doing meeting on internet?

272

Or is it really important for me to

fly and meet people in person instead

273

of going, okay, I'm not flying.

274

That's it.

275

Or it's too complicated.

276

I don't want to think about it.

277

I'll fly when I need to and forget.

278

Me planning ahead or something.

279

So I think coming in this kind of middle,

I said, like shopping, when people

280

want to save money shopping, they wait

for some sales or for a certain time

281

of the year when they buy big items.

282

I think we can do the same

thing with flying and manage.

283

It takes a little bit longer, a

little bit focus, but, uh, at least

284

we can move towards something.

285

That's a really great point

and a great distinction.

286

I think just to bring it back to

the celebrities, their air travel,

287

I was reading that one person took

a jet 37 minutes, which emitted

288

like three tons of CO2, which is an

insane amount, like the amount that

289

one person may emit in this year.

290

Supposed to, supposed to emit in the year.

291

Yeah.

292

But I mean, I think that kind of thing,

it's like, what are you doing that?

293

I think you're right.

294

Kind of planning your year.

295

So that limited as much as

possible limit trips like that.

296

I know everybody's busy and

it's, it's difficult and hard

297

to coordinate everything.

298

Gosh, guys, I moved 13 times last

year between four countries in Europe.

299

And we did it all my train.

300

Yeah.

301

It was, I mean.

302

It was horrible.

303

It was, it was the process of us becoming

Italian residents, but I feel much

304

better about that, especially because

Now trains are something that we can

305

do all the time and we've gotten rid

of our two cars and we've gotten rid

306

of like, you know, a lot of stuff.

307

So, yeah, just kind of weighing,

um, and being thoughtful and

308

considerate about all this stuff.

309

And also I just want to note that the

trains in Europe are electric trains.

310

They're not using fossil fuels.

311

Are they?

312

All?

313

I think most of them.

314

I know at least in Czech, all the

train tracks have wires above.

315

So, I'm assuming everybody

is running on electricity.

316

So maybe not, I don't know if they're

all, but I know there's a lot of them.

317

Yeah.

318

I mean, the, the train system is quite

efficient in Europe, but it's still

319

faster and cheaper sometimes to fly.

320

That's the truth.

321

So maybe in these areas where we don't

have to take ships or sailboats, uh,

322

maybe, uh, Making the trains accessible

and making it so they're building

323

tracks where you don't need to use

fossil fuels, where it's all electric.

324

I feel like infrastructure

is there already.

325

And it's not that much

harder to put a few holes up.

326

I think that that would be nice.

327

Yeah, that would be nice, but I

don't think it's that easy, really.

328

Last summer, I bought a book, um,

well, I don't have it here, but it's,

329

um, it's a Lonely Planet special

edition for slow travel in Europe.

330

And so we looked at it and

we decided to go to Latvia.

331

And so according to the book,

the public transportation

332

system is very, very efficient.

333

And so I wanted to go there by

boat and then train, but it was too

334

difficult, so I had to take a plane.

335

But I decided that once we're

there, we're going to be car free.

336

And, um, I talked to some, to some

people there that I know that I work

337

with, and I say, I told them about my plan

of not driving, just, relying on public

338

transportation to go around the country.

339

And all of them told me that, huh, you

all have , very interesting ideas, but

340

think of Latvia, who's been part of

USSR, under invested in infrastructure.

341

Think of all that, you know, think

of, don't make your life to harm.

342

Uh, it just, it's not that easy,

even though Latvia has been part

343

of the EU for some time now, but

it's not that easy to put rails or

344

to build railroads and all that.

345

It's just.

346

It doesn't happen overnight,

it takes time, so.

347

Gosh, yeah, and in the U.

348

S., I mean, everything's so spread out.

349

Yeah.

350

There's no, like, real urban centers.

351

And I think that, you know, there's this

immediacy of being able to drive your car.

352

You can go, you know, you forgot

something at the grocery, you can go

353

pick it up in 10 minutes in your car.

354

That's something, like, a growing pain

that we're feeling, is that sometimes when

355

you don't have something here, it takes

a lot of effort to go out and get it.

356

Um, it's not immediate, it's

not convenient, so it's, it does

357

just take a lot more planning.

358

, But yeah, like, New York City has a

great subway system, Chicago's is okay.

359

I lived in Chicago for a long time,

so, I mean, their subway system's

360

not, not the greatest, but um,

at least, you know, it's there.

361

There were times when, uh, stores

were closed on Sundays, and I wonder

362

that having access to everything.

363

It, for us, is unusual to wait

for something or plan ahead.

364

Yeah.

365

Uh, the rule about that

366

It was called the Lord's Day Act, and it

367

ignoring it anyway, long before that.

368

But that was when it wasn't

allowed to be open on a Sunday.

369

So interesting.

370

And now it's just a regular

day of the week almost.

371

I think banks still sometimes aren't

open, but there are very few things

372

that are not open on a Sunday anymore.

373

But going back to our flying or not

flying, one thing I never do is that

374

I don't tell people around me that

they are not doing the right thing.

375

. I don't want to make them feel ashamed

of not doing the right thing because

376

sometimes it's not their fault because

we're not in their shoes and so

377

we don't know their circumstances.

378

Yeah, I mean, you don't

want to discourage people.

379

It's like, we're all kind

of just doing our best.

380

I mean, some people aren't and they're

just completely okay in their ignorance.

381

Um, ignorance is bliss.

382

But I mean, when people are making an

effort or they are aware of climate

383

issues, you don't want to discourage that.

384

And I sometimes wonder too if there

are ways that big organizations that

385

send their employees all over the

place can rethink that a little bit.

386

Are there ways that you don't

have to fly so much for business?

387

Are there different systems that

could come into place that would

388

allow for people to travel less?

389

Even a little bit less would

make a difference, right?

390

I mean, yes, uh, I think with COVID,

the lockdowns, it has helped a

391

little bit because now we used to

riffing twice, a little bit more, not

392

twice, a little bit more, uh, before

we take a plane for work at this.

393

I agree with the missing people.

394

I mean, being a person.

395

It really is different, but at what cost?

396

Especially with all our families

spread out everywhere now.

397

You know, it used to be that

everybody stayed in one town.

398

And you had your grandma and your sisters

and everything right there with you.

399

But now, you know, My sister's at

the ER, my Nana's in Tennessee, uh,

400

Josh is in Colorado, my husband.

401

It's just, it's kind of like hard

to know, you know, how to see

402

people and to make it happen.

403

I've also changed with globalization.

404

So what should we invite them to do?

405

I think I'm gonna try to plan

even more ahead and adjust and

406

maybe communicate more to ask

people what their longer plan is.

407

Um, connect with them in a ways.

408

For instance, I have to

travel to Europe from U.

409

S.

410

and so I set it up that I can

see my family on the way there

411

instead of flying straight there

and then back and back and forth.

412

So maybe think in bigger time chunks.

413

What about you guys?

414

Yeah, I continue to think about do

I have to go there in person or can

415

I do the virtual option if it's a

conference or something that, while it

416

would be nice to be there in person,

do I need to be there in person?

417

Sometimes the answer might be yes,

but lots of times it's probably not

418

imperative that I'm physically there.

419

I kind of think the same way.

420

, for work, because sometimes it's not

absolutely necessary to be somewhere for

421

work, and for my personal travel, for

leisure, holidays, or seeing family, I

422

am willing, and actually I'm doing it,

exploring alternative ways of traveling,

423

which doesn't require flying, and it's.

424

Very fun.

425

And, uh, yeah, it just, it, it

requires a lot of planning, really.

426

, I'm already planning my, my summer

holiday because I'm planning not to fly

427

and do everything by train and boat.

428

But the capacity, the capacity

of this kind of means of

429

transportation is very, very limited.

430

So you really have to plan in advance.

431

For me, we moved to a location

where we could walk everywhere.

432

I, very infrequently take the train.

433

Um, there's a tram system

that runs here in Milan.

434

We just do a lot of walking.

435

And I mean, I know that that's

not possible for everybody, but I

436

think running ahead and making sure

that, you know, when you're at the

437

grocery, you're thinking long term.

438

So that you don't have to

order those groceries in a

439

couple of days or run back out.

440

Where we're moving to, we're

going to be close to a train.

441

It's called the West Coast Express.

442

It only goes into town once a day and

comes back out the other way once a day.

443

It's not the SkyTrain or the subway

like that we have in the city.

444

But it's there, and I think if you get on

it at the right time, it can take you to

445

the SkyTrain or the electric train system.

446

But it will be a lot closer, because

where I live now, you have to have a car.

447

There's not an easy way to get anywhere.

448

So we're moving closer into

where there will be some options.

449

And one of the hopes is that when

one of our cars dies, our hope is

450

that we can get an electric bike.

451

For errands and things like that because

it's a smaller town and it'll be, I

452

think it'll be easier to get around

and find what we need without having

453

to get into a car every single time.

454

That's interesting what you said

because I just realized when I talk

455

to people, a lot of them , when they

are moving, , before it was job.

456

Close to the family, uh, community.

457

But now people are starting to talk

about exactly what she said about

458

the travel, about ability to walk to

grocery store and to be in places.

459

Where they don't have to leave

all the time to live well.

460

I cannot even imagine living in

places like that because I've

461

always lived in big cities.

462

So I cannot imagine a life where I have

to take a car for whatever I need to

463

do and like when you say that there's a

train that goes once a day To the city

464

center and did you see my face when you

say that if you can get to the SkyTrain?

465

Then you can go all over

the place every few minutes.

466

It's a normal subway system.

467

Well, it's elevated rapid transit So it's

on a platform above and then sometimes

468

it goes underground But most of the

time it's above and you can get to the

469

airport You can get all over the place

But the other one is an actual train

470

like a train track an actual real train

That goes, uh, downtown and it's quite

471

good because it goes from quite far

away from Vancouver and takes people

472

all the way into the city and it only

stops about four times or five times.

473

But once a day.

474

So you, you really need to

plan your day very, very well.

475

Well it's for, for people who

are working downtown, who like

476

commuting to work kind of thing.

477

I know, it's kind of old,

it's not as fancy as Europe,

478

but Oh, I didn't say that!

479

No.

480

No.

481

I often envy the transit systems there

and how everybody can just walk places.

482

In big cities, because if you go

to like small villages in, in lots

483

of parts of Europe, it's the same.

484

They don't even have trains

or public transportation, so.

485

Right.

486

Right.

487

I just realized that, uh, when you

guys talk about transportation.

488

In Europe, it takes about 10 minutes,

5 minutes to go to a grocery store.

489

And if I, I'm in Montana right now,

and if I have to go get groceries,

490

I would have to walk 4 hours and 10

minutes to get the grocery, which

491

would be about an hour on a bicycle.

492

I realize, yeah, it's, uh, the

world's for different, different

493

experiences, different needs.

494

Yeah, but in Europe, you live in the city.

495

Yeah.

496

Yeah.

497

Yeah.

498

I think it's a matter of the size

of, um, I mean, it's, it's a,

499

whether it's a density, is it a

city or not in a city, obviously in

500

Montana, you don't live in the city.

501

So it's a different lifestyle.

502

Yeah.

503

We started with planes.

504

We started with private jets and then we

talk about planes and now we're talking

505

about commuting, like daily commute.

506

Walking for hours.

507

On the other side.

508

Yeah, but it's good to talk

about those things sometimes.

509

Thank you for this conversation.

510

Thank you guys.

511

Thanks everyone and thanks

for coming to join us, Tanya.

512

Yeah, and oh my gosh,

thank you guys so much.

513

Bye.

514

Bye guys.

515

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