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213 - The Relubrication Episode
Episode 213 • 10th January 2022 • Meta-Cast • Bob Galen & Josh Anderson
00:00:00 00:35:51

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Yep. You read that correctly.

Old engines get rusty and often need some fresh oil. How can you oil your agile engine? We cover a handful of scenarios and ideas to fix each of them. Has your team seized up and needs to be fixed? Let's discuss!

Key Links From This Episode:

Look beyond the team first - https://rgalen.com/agile-training-news/2021/12/16/underperforming-development-team

Re-energize (ReLube) your team as a PO - https://rgalen.com/agile-training-news/2016/5/22/a-dozen-ways-a-product-owner-can-re-energize-their-team

The Agile Disciples meeting - https://www.eventbrite.com/e/avoiding-agile-mediocrity-aka-becoming-a-badass-agile-coach-tickets-239737379957

Keep The Conversation Going:

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Transcripts

Bob:

Ah, I just, I'm always happy to see you, man.

Bob:

That's what it is.

Bob:

It's just joy.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Join the Vive.

Bob:

What the hell?

Bob:

I don't know the joy of living John.

Josh:

Bob.

Josh:

Have you re lubricated your vocal chords?

Bob:

I just did Josh.

Bob:

No.

Josh:

So for those of you that maybe didn't know as we go to

Josh:

start every episode Bob's joking and his normal boisterous self.

Josh:

He's all over the place.

Josh:

Then he gets this, like all of a sudden let's go, let's go.

Josh:

Let's go.

Josh:

And then he takes a drink of something.

Josh:

So we can't actually go

Bob:

immediately, but I'm losing my voice.

Bob:

I'm getting ready.

Bob:

Okay.

Josh:

I got you.

Josh:

So the reason why that's important is because today is

Josh:

the re lubrication episode.

Josh:

Ooh, what the

Bob:

hell?

Bob:

Ooh.

Bob:

Jiffy lube.

Bob:

Yeah, baby.

Bob:

Yes.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

So can you explain, because

Bob:

this was your idea.

Bob:

No.

Bob:

We talked about in the last Medi-Cal Josh, it was our, we

Bob:

co-created this idea, you know,

Josh:

the re lubrication concept was, it

Bob:

did not come from you.

Bob:

I know for sure about,

Josh:

so can you explain

Bob:

the Genesis of that?

Bob:

So the Genesis was, you know, we were talking about teams that have

Bob:

lost their mojo or lost their energy.

Bob:

And I think I brought up something about like relieving themselves or

Bob:

reenergizing themselves, or how do you, how do you reduce the friction?

Bob:

What is.

Bob:

And there's a lot of there's a lot of it could be organizational friction,

Bob:

it could be management, friction.

Bob:

It could be it could be team turnover.

Bob:

It could be it could be distributed like virtual teams could be part of

Bob:

the losing their mojo, et cetera.

Bob:

So I met a casters that I think is the essence of this, is this episode is how

Bob:

do you, how do you, re-engage your teams?

Bob:

What are some ideas around re you know, sort of minimizing the.

Bob:

How do you like that?

Bob:

Yeah, that's fine.

Bob:

Like friction minimalization.

Bob:

Well, but say that five times, John, not even gonna try.

Bob:

Remember, there was an episode a few times back where you repeated something

Bob:

that you would use in my face and you did

Josh:

it well, it's because you

Bob:

challenged me.

Bob:

You had to step up and you, and, and there was like a fourth time and

Bob:

then you had to go for a five, right?

Bob:

You said, say it five times.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

And you

Josh:

did.

Josh:

So I, as you were talking through that, I kind of pictured an engine that had seized

Josh:

up or maybe a gotten rusty and that's a cool, and the reason it became that

Josh:

way was because it stopped getting used.

Josh:

So that doesn't mean you're not doing agile, but maybe you're not doing

Josh:

the core of agile, which is always trying to improve with every sprint.

Josh:

Like maybe you've gotten stale there and that part of the engine has

Josh:

seized up because you haven't as aggressively lubricated that part

Josh:

of your process, where we're always looking for ways to get better.

Josh:

It's like, Hey, we're good at.

Josh:

And you just kind of settle in and I've seen a lot of teams.

Josh:

Heck I've been a part of teams that have done that, where we just kind

Josh:

of hit our stride, but in hitting our stride, we kind of lose who we are

Josh:

a little bit and just kind of like

Bob:

coast.

Bob:

I think complacency is one of those things.

Bob:

And, and what I want to say is there's, there's a natural, I wouldn't say.

Bob:

And we've talked about this.

Bob:

So I think in the Medicare space for that, that when you're doing

Bob:

continuous improvement, it's hard.

Bob:

So it's okay to peek out and take a break.

Bob:

I think like there's an S curve, right?

Bob:

You like, we start and then we accelerate with continuous improvement, but then,

Bob:

you know, if that goes on for you.

Bob:

The team may just get tired with continuous improvement.

Bob:

So allow, allow that yourselves, all the team to do that.

Bob:

So we're not talking about that.

Bob:

That to me is not, there's a normalcy to it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's a normalcy to people blowing leaves outside of my window.

Bob:

Right, right, right.

Bob:

As we start to record as we start to record.

Bob:

So, but it's, it's, it's the abnormal part of that.

Bob:

It's the complacency part of that.

Bob:

Like it goes on for too long.

Bob:

If I got flat, that flat period goes on for too long.

Bob:

I've seen teams that never really achieved the acceleration as well.

Bob:

They, they do a little bit, but they really never sort of get

Bob:

that acceleration, retrospective.

Bob:

I would, I would throw on the table that the retro might be a peak part

Bob:

of that or a central that's a huge

Josh:

indicator.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Of what your engines do.

Josh:

It.

Josh:

You know, because to Bob's point, you can't have the pedal to the metal 24 7,

Josh:

and not expect the engine to blow up.

Josh:

So you have to give it a break, but also if you leave it idle for

Josh:

too long, Something's going to happen because it's idle and it's

Josh:

not doing what it needs to do.

Josh:

So that's where those peaks and valleys can and should happen because that's

Josh:

what we all need to be able to accelerate because acceleration is really a thing.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

But yeah, so it's, it's, that's always an indicator.

Josh:

Like that's one of the things that when I'm coaching, that's one of the

Josh:

most interesting ceremonies or events or whatever the proper term is now.

Josh:

That I want to see you.

Josh:

I want to see that dialogue.

Josh:

I want to see how thoughtful and truly retrospective that team is because that

Josh:

gives you a window into the likelihood of them not needing extra lubrication.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I think one thing.

Bob:

Sort of one, one way to look for it.

Bob:

I look, I think of Energizer bunnies.

Bob:

So that's a, that's a us thing where there's this battery commercial

Bob:

where there's Energizer batteries and one way to break out of it.

Bob:

I don't think teams teams can break out of it, but I think you need like a spark.

Bob:

Right now I typically will like a coach or a scrum master could be a spark.

Bob:

A leader might be a spark or an individual team member might be a spark.

Bob:

So I rarely see like the entire team one day is they're complacent.

Bob:

And then suddenly everyone gets energized at the same time.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And they start accelerating.

Bob:

It normally takes like an event or an internal sort of person.

Bob:

To recognize it.

Bob:

And he would stand up in a retrospective and call the team out or challenge

Bob:

themselves or, or do something.

Bob:

How would you buy that as a way to break out, to break out of the complacency?

Bob:

Yes.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That's one of the things we've talked about a bajillion and that's

Josh:

a technical term, but Gillian times here, someone has to have the courage

Josh:

to say, folks, this is not good enough.

Josh:

We are better than this.

Josh:

Let's snap out of it and get back to who we are.

Josh:

And usually.

Josh:

That's easier to see from the outside.

Josh:

So that's where, to your point, the coach wouldn't, you know,

Bob:

I would buy that actually that's a, that's a twist on it.

Bob:

So it needs a spark plug and an outside spark plug is usually.

Bob:

You know, w not better, but, but there, it's more visible to the

Bob:

outside than it is inside out.

Bob:

It's outside in.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's all

Josh:

forest for the trees thing.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

You're so deep in it that it's hard for you to be able to take that

Josh:

step back and say, wait a minute, what are we doing this season?

Josh:

This isn't us.

Bob:

I do think there's like a principle thing.

Bob:

I want to bounce this off of you and see, it's not a principle thing, but I talked

Bob:

to leaders, I do leadership training and I talk about the responsibility

Bob:

that leaders have to bring it every day.

Bob:

That doesn't mean they can't have a bad day, right?

Bob:

Like they can have a bad day.

Bob:

They can have something happening in their lives where they need to handle it.

Bob:

But in general, over a year, over the course of a year, leaving.

Bob:

Almost independent of what's going on in their life.

Bob:

They have, they have a responsibility to bring it.

Bob:

I wonder if some of that can, and if you don't like get out of a leadership

Bob:

business, I'm wondering if there's something similar in teams and energizing

Bob:

teams where you have to remind the team of like the responsibility you

Bob:

have as a team member to bring it.

Bob:

What do you think is, is it, is it inherently the same

Bob:

or is that just for leaders?

Josh:

I think.

Josh:

We always talk about as a leader, you have to model the behavior you're

Josh:

looking to see from within your team.

Josh:

So as a, as an external leader, as not a member of the team,

Josh:

you absolutely have to do that.

Josh:

I think really, truly high, efficient, high output teams have someone inside

Josh:

of the team that operates that same way.

Josh:

I don't believe it's fair to expect everybody to have that because

Josh:

there's just different personalities.

Bob:

Let me challenge you.

Bob:

I want to bring football into it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So you, you were playing, you were practicing right at Cincinnati

Bob:

and you came onto the field.

Bob:

you know, I'm okay to do.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And you joined your type, the tight ends and you joined the offensive

Bob:

line and you were going through practices and, and you were, you were

Bob:

just meeting, you were barely there.

Bob:

You were, you were, is that okay?

Bob:

Was it okay or did you have to, is that.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

If you want to play, you have to operate at that 24 7.

Josh:

You got

Bob:

to bring it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And it's, and it's from the inside out is what I'm saying.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You know?

Bob:

No one's going to coax you, right.

Bob:

I mean, they're you're know your coach might

Josh:

yell at you.

Josh:

Well, no, the coach will put

Bob:

somebody else in.

Bob:

Yeah, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You've talked about that in the piece.

Bob:

It's pretty vicious, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

100%.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I mean, performance.

Bob:

It's not vicious.

Bob:

It's performance.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Performance counts.

Bob:

I can see where the Energizer bunnies work, but I almost, what

Bob:

I'm saying, what I'm thinking is high-performance agile teams or teams

Bob:

that are relieving people in the morning when they get up, need to look

Bob:

themselves in the mirror and different personality types, different cultures.

Bob:

I get the yes.

Bob:

Yes, but, but w however, get yourself up and enter the arena.

Bob:

We'll get you enter the arena with the right mindset.

Bob:

I wonder if that's a part of it.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

I, I,

Josh:

I would like to retract my statement.

Josh:

I, I do agree with you that for 18 to be that team we all aspire to

Josh:

have, or be a part of everyone has to have that, that view to your

Josh:

point, there are going to be days.

Josh:

What it's not a good day for you and

Bob:

that's, and that's, I'm not looking for a hundred, you embrace

Bob:

that, but I'm talking about the average, like over the course of a month,

Bob:

you had 29 bad ones in one bedroom.

Bob:

That's probably not a good enough.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And

Josh:

going back to the personality types, the personality type doesn't matter me.

Josh:

I'm just like retracting everything.

Josh:

I said the personality type doesn't matter.

Josh:

When you're modeling the right behavior, right?

Josh:

Whether you're outspoken, you're introvert, this is the, this

Josh:

is the bomb noise episode.

Josh:

We're going to, we're going to rename it.

Bob:

This is the noisy episode, medic casters.

Bob:

But, but I think I like the content so far, so hopefully you can overlook

Josh:

all the next week and let the dogs in and let them

Josh:

or not around the dogs out.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

So it's it's dang it.

Josh:

I just really put my foot in my mouth like five minutes ago.

Bob:

No, I don't think you really, but,

Josh:

well, I think I did cause I'm like, I I'm truly doing a 180 on that.

Josh:

I wonder why it was going that direct.

Josh:

But yeah, that, that, that modeling.

Bob:

And it's be yourself.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like an introvert, a quiet introvert newbie.

Bob:

I don't know what bring, it means.

Bob:

Figure it out.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But, but maybe that means you listen, maybe that means you

Bob:

grab someone and pair with them.

Bob:

Maybe they, I don't really care, but you're not disengaged.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

So what, doesn't it look like?

Bob:

You're not disengaged.

Bob:

You're not blaming.

Bob:

You're not lackadaisical.

Bob:

You're not waiting for someone who would fight.

Bob:

To do work.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You're you're like leaning in to whatever degree that's comfortable for you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And your team will be most successful if they can do that themselves.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

There's times when maybe an outside coach, they're going to notice it sooner

Josh:

or something like that, but ultimately.

Josh:

For those truly self-sustaining self-driven teams that has to happen.

Bob:

I just ran a class, I'm running a class, a leadership class.

Bob:

So I ran a cow class for a client and for leaders at the client and they had

Bob:

this epiphany of can we, they liked it.

Bob:

They liked the dynamics and they said, can we run the teams through

Bob:

it through a one day version of.

Bob:

And, and I, I was trying to figure out what that is.

Bob:

And part of it is communication.

Bob:

So part of it is radical.

Bob:

Candor is part of it to help the teams figure out how to

Bob:

communicate more effectively.

Bob:

And I was, I was really concerned because there's like five classes.

Bob:

And so we're running it through like 90 people.

Bob:

And, you know, there's a few leaders in the class, but it's like

Bob:

mostly individual contributors.

Bob:

And I was wondering.

Bob:

Like would it resonate?

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Cause it's a leadership class.

Bob:

I mean, the content is now.

Bob:

I, you know, I started off each class saying we're all leaders, you know,

Bob:

you've heard me talk about that pitch.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Ad nauseum.

Bob:

And I mean, it, it's not a pitch.

Bob:

We're all, we're all leaders, people are paying attention to you all the time.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You're leading when you're not leading.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

They're watching you, your behavior, your attitude, and the I've run one class.

Bob:

And I have two more coming up.

Bob:

This.

Bob:

And so the first class, it resonated, it resonated better with the

Bob:

teams than it did with leaders.

Bob:

Usually they really got the fact that they were all leaders.

Bob:

They really like what we're talking about here.

Bob:

Like showing up, like it matters how you show up.

Bob:

You could see people thinking, we were talking about being

Bob:

more reflective taking.

Bob:

Inside out leadership, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You know, being conscious about how you show up being a conscious

Bob:

about walking your talk, et cetera.

Bob:

And I, I could see it, you know, I thought it wouldn't land at all and it really

Bob:

landed for folks now they weren't, they weren't thinking about the leadership

Bob:

stories they were thinking about how do I become a better team member.

Bob:

Right, exactly.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

How do I.

Bob:

From myself from the position I have.

Bob:

And I thought it was the coolest thing.

Bob:

I hope, I hope that wasn't Napoli.

Bob:

I hope, I hope it resonates with you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I don't think

Josh:

it would be because that's probably an eyeopening thought of how

Josh:

I, as a team member should operate as

Bob:

opposed to, you could see the aha in everyone's eyes

Bob:

because it was moving from.

Bob:

I I contribute to, I also influenced.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it was very cool to see folks.

Josh:

That's what so many people want, but yet, so many organizations

Josh:

don't allow or empower that.

Josh:

So it's not, unfortunately it's not the first reflexive approach that people take.

Josh:

There've been so many times where I've even like just asked people what they

Josh:

thought or what they thought we should do.

Josh:

And like, w w why are you asking me?

Josh:

You're the director.

Josh:

I'm like, okay.

Josh:

So what, like, but you're part of the team.

Josh:

You're the one building it.

Josh:

What do you think?

Josh:

And they're like, no one's ever asked me that like, well, that's a

Josh:

problem, but we're changing that.

Bob:

It's so I think that's part of the Rilutek maybe mindset is what we're,

Bob:

what we're circling around is changing your personal mindset a little bit.

Bob:

And how you show up what other lube efforts I'm going to S what else?

Bob:

So we talked about spark plugs.

Bob:

We've talked about mindset.

Bob:

I think a

Josh:

common thing that can do that you can do, but some people go

Josh:

overboard with this is just change up the ceremonies a little bit.

Josh:

Don't allow them to be the same thing.

Josh:

For five years, I have been with teams where we've been doing things

Josh:

for three years and it just, and we were good and everybody was happy.

Josh:

The product was healthy.

Josh:

People enjoyed, like, it was a great place to work, but still

Josh:

like three years of doing the same thing, we're like, all right.

Josh:

Let's, let's just change how we do this to give the brain a little bit of a

Josh:

challenge and have it think differently about that moment that they've done.

Josh:

900 times or something.

Bob:

So experiment more if I could capture it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Maybe like experiment with ceremonies in advance experiment with everything maybe.

Bob:

Yeah,

Josh:

don't go overboard.

Josh:

I have seen places where a scrum master does a different retro style.

Josh:

Every

Bob:

retro we've talked about that in the

Josh:

gas.

Josh:

And so then the first 15 minutes of.

Josh:

Hour or whatever you have planned the team's trying to figure out, okay, how

Josh:

the hell do I say what's not working?

Josh:

You know, so don't, don't, don't go crazy with it, but you

Josh:

need to do that every once in a

Bob:

while.

Bob:

What would be, it would give people some experimentation ideas.

Bob:

Why don't we drop some specifics?

Bob:

I would say pairing opportunities.

Bob:

So really look for, can you create T-shaped people and pair in different ways

Bob:

than you normally have in all directions?

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Like testers into not just functional pairs, but cross-functional

Bob:

pairs and things like that.

Bob:

And, and don't do it.

Bob:

Don't do it, you know, holistically or religiously, but do it opportunistically.

Bob:

What else?

Bob:

What would be so pairing would be a good one.

Bob:

Having people do work that they're uncomfortable with.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

Without a doubt.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It's like take, take risks.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Cause people get into their comfort zone yeah.

Bob:

From a work perspective.

Bob:

So, so sort of mix it up, have, have a newbie, take a hard thing.

Bob:

This is a silly example.

Bob:

And having, having an experienced person take a trivial thing or

Bob:

something do do like by rote, right?

Bob:

Like I love it.

Bob:

I love it.

Bob:

When everyone on the team runs manual test cases.

Bob:

What's your mind numbing, right?

Bob:

Like manual running manual test cases.

Bob:

And they still exist in the world is, is not intellectually pleasing.

Bob:

It's mind numbing.

Bob:

So, but everyone says, well, the testers that's the testers job.

Bob:

Why doesn't everyone take some mind numbing work and it

Bob:

might make you more sensitive.

Bob:

It might.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You might have, you might actually be inspired to reduce

Bob:

the mind-numbing work in some way.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That's the thing that I do because.

Josh:

I believe it's healthy for people's careers to expand the top of their tea and

Josh:

give them a little bit more experience and things that they aren't comfortable with.

Josh:

Now that doesn't mean so database expert I might not jump them all

Josh:

the way into like react native, but still I'd push them more towards the.

Josh:

Again, I think it does two things.

Josh:

It helps them learn and grow, helps them become more marketable in the future.

Josh:

But, but also it, it does give them empathy for their teammates

Josh:

that are working with there.

Josh:

And like that's a problem is I don't even like to say, well, it's

Josh:

your piece and your piece and your piece to me, it's everybody's piece.

Josh:

And I drive that across the team by making sure it's not always

Josh:

the same person that works on.

Josh:

The database, but when something's really hard, you're going to go

Josh:

to the database expert because it's like, let's get this right.

Josh:

But we can't, we don't want the silos.

Josh:

So that's a, that's a thing that you have to push.

Josh:

So definitely look around your team and see if you fall into that

Josh:

rut of everybody's doing the same.

Josh:

every sprint

Bob:

everyone should, everyone could do.

Bob:

As you know, everyone could do a spike.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Everyone could do a little bit of research, sometimes spikes land on just

Bob:

one or two people or more senior folks.

Bob:

Another experiment everyone is, is like, have, have multiple

Bob:

people play the scrum master role.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

If it's okay with, I think it makes, and again, it goes back to

Bob:

what Josh was saying with empathy.

Bob:

We lose.

Bob:

I think you're a great team.

Bob:

If you do a stint as a scrum master, you become a much better team member.

Bob:

You might even be able to twist it and say, become a little

Bob:

bit of a mini product owner.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like, like if there's an opportunity to do a presentation to an executive

Bob:

with the product owner, like see the kind of craft that they have to put

Bob:

up with builds your empathy, builds your muscle building, you know?

Bob:

Oh, the market is different than I thought it was.

Josh:

Yeah, teams, they're terrible at sprint planning.

Josh:

I, I rotate it across each, each member of the team to make

Josh:

them run that sprint planning.

Josh:

And then they see how painful it is when nobody's paying attention.

Josh:

No, one's investing all of that

Bob:

stuff.

Bob:

That's what, even the predictability, like I'm getting excited about this story.

Bob:

But having someone report out, like talk to a manager or talk to everyone, well,

Bob:

it's no estimates, you know, agile, we can't forecast stuff, get used to it.

Bob:

Well, someone on that team is talking to someone who doesn't buy that crap.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Usually it's an executive or something saying, yeah.

Bob:

Oh, I really appreciate that idea.

Bob:

But guess what?

Bob:

I have to talk to a board and I have to talk to customers and

Bob:

we have to forecast something.

Bob:

So understanding, I think building systems.

Bob:

Empathy is the more you can do that makes you a better team.

Bob:

Member, keeps things fresh, keeps your experiments.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

One of the terms that I use for the types of teammates that I try to hire and or

Josh:

shape is commercially minded so that they really understand how the business works.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

One of the things that I am pretty passionate about going forward from here.

Josh:

Is finding ways for.

Josh:

The teams to be customers of their product.

Josh:

I think some of the best companies, some of the best products on ban are,

Josh:

are built by people that are customer.

Josh:

So think of Spotify, right?

Josh:

I am sure many people are on that team because they're passionate about music

Josh:

and passionate about their music and passionate about finding the next music.

Josh:

you think about GitHub, things like that, where again, every person is

Josh:

a consumer of that, and then you.

Josh:

You understand what it's like when something's busted as opposed to,

Josh:

well, yeah, like, you know, I'm sure it's hard for that end user somewhere

Josh:

in Southwest Texas that, you know, they can just, there's a workaround.

Josh:

They'll be

Bob:

fine.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I think, I mean, it, it's going back to this empathy thing we're talking about.

Bob:

I don't know if you could get frozen.

Bob:

You know, we're talking about re lubing.

Bob:

It's, it's harder to get frozen if you have that customer,

Bob:

that client mindset, right?

Bob:

It's like I'm serving them, right.

Bob:

I have a bug or they need a new design or et cetera.

Bob:

It's hard to be complacent with that.

Bob:

I mean, you can have those bad days.

Bob:

That's not what we're talking about, but if you have your eye on the, on

Bob:

the prize and if you're passionate about something, man, that's gonna,

Bob:

that's going to juice you up every day.

Bob:

That's going to get you excited every day.

Bob:

Did we cover it?

Bob:

I'm trying to think of what else?

Bob:

The cover to re-energize.

Bob:

So we said retros, I think we talked

Josh:

about a lot of symptoms I'd like to try and give some more actionable yeah.

Josh:

Things people can do.

Josh:

So we talked about pairing, rotating roles within the team.

Josh:

Not just like scrum master, but who's working on front end backend stuff.

Josh:

So mix that up working.

Josh:

Upstream with executives and customers and understanding the business of

Josh:

the business, potentially being a customer of your own product.

Josh:

I I'd

Bob:

say the product owner.

Bob:

One thing we didn't talk about is we talked about the team's responsibility

Bob:

to understand the outside.

Bob:

I think that the business has an, a responsibility of the product

Bob:

owner to explain the why and the intentionality to the team as well.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So it's not just the team searching for it, like, like

Bob:

get the CEO to come in and okay.

Bob:

Talk about the compelling, why are we doing this?

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

What's the, what's the problem we're trying to solve.

Bob:

And then continually iterate that.

Bob:

So I think product I'm picking on, not on picking on, I think it's a responsibility,

Bob:

there's a responsibility of the product owner of that team to not yell at the

Bob:

team or, you know, sort of pick on the team, but to energize the team.

Bob:

I w I wrote a blog post a while back.

Bob:

I think it was like 12 ways.

Bob:

A product owner can rip the soul out of a team or 12 ways.

Bob:

I think it was, I think it was actually re-energized, I'll send that to you

Bob:

to put on this, this Medi-Cal the product owner can, depending on how

Bob:

they show up to the team, they can generate a lot of energy to the team.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minute,

Bob:

hold it.

Bob:

I need to take a drink, Josh.

Bob:

You can't do that.

Bob:

Hey everyone.

Bob:

So I'll jump in.

Bob:

There's there's a group, it's a new group and, they're called agile disciples.

Bob:

I think it's, it's a bunch of ScrumMasters and coaches not solely from Texas through.

Bob:

folks from Africa and Nigeria, I think there are a few, but a lot of

Bob:

the folks live in Texas and they're, they're trying to spin up a group.

Bob:

We talked about in the Medi-Cal, they're trying to spin up a group to give back

Bob:

to the community, so to learn, to become coaches themselves, but also to give back.

Bob:

So they're trying to do both sides of that and, I've, I've been trying to help

Bob:

them and they have a talk coming up.

Bob:

oh, I forget what day, but we'll get it in the link and I'm going to do a

Bob:

kickoff talking about coaching for them.

Bob:

So they invited me to say, can you do like an inaugural thing to get some energy?

Bob:

They're trying to create a group with some like a meetup

Bob:

group or something like that.

Bob:

They still don't have a website they're still forming.

Bob:

but that's what I'm involved with that and excited medic casters, someone

Bob:

don't get put off by the name disciples.

Bob:

So.

Bob:

So someone negatively commented on LinkedIn about it in his obnoxious

Bob:

name will remain nameless, but, you know, it's, it is a triggering term.

Bob:

Don't let it trigger.

Bob:

They're not religious and they're not, they might be religious.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But they're not, they're not, there's no intention.

Bob:

There's no intent to tie religion to agile in any way.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's a term that really resonated with them.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

So we're in the.

Josh:

Re lubrication episode.

Josh:

I think it's worth everybody hitting the pause button and looking at themselves

Josh:

and saying, do I need to read lubricate?

Josh:

My diversity and inclusion efforts have things gotten a little stale.

Josh:

I am one of those people, right?

Josh:

So that's, that's, I'm going to ask everybody to do that same thing

Josh:

and think about what can I do?

Josh:

We have great models like Bob gates.

Josh:

That's

Bob:

going to cry.

Bob:

No, I mean, your pivot, you just pivoted.

Bob:

I mean, I'm, I'm giving you a look and you're like, you know me?

Bob:

He's like, what is he thinking?

Bob:

No, Josh, you, you rock what?

Bob:

A role model you are and try it and try it.

Bob:

Oh, that's, I'm just like, I'm almost emotional.

Bob:

That's no, you pivoted and you're right.

Bob:

I think the Relu that episode, it applies perfectly to this stuff.

Bob:

Man.

Bob:

All right, nicely done.

Bob:

Back to the episode, back to the episode.

Josh:

The first thing I would do after listening to this episode is if

Josh:

I'm a team member, do I know the Y.

Josh:

Behind what we're building.

Josh:

So the feature we're working on right now, yes.

Josh:

You know, it's a new button on a screen that does a thing, but do you know how

Josh:

that makes your customer's life better?

Josh:

Do you understand the difference that that's going to make for them

Josh:

on a daily, weekly, monthly basis?

Josh:

if it, if you're not a member of the team, ask your team that, and if

Josh:

they don't know it, it's not there.

Josh:

It's yours.

Josh:

It's your job as the leader, the product owner, the whatever, it's your job to

Josh:

ensure that you connect that with them.

Josh:

So don't get mad if they don't know what to get mad at yourself, because

Josh:

you've, you missed the mark there.

Josh:

Now that doesn't mean the game's over, but you need to really

Josh:

push in and work harder at that.

Josh:

And that to me is step one, because that does invigorate people, that empathy that

Josh:

people have will ensure a better product.

Josh:

Oh, pops, furiously scribbling notes.

Bob:

No, no, no.

Bob:

I mean, so another actual thing idea I had is maybe in the

Bob:

retro is around the record.

Bob:

Do a, a quick poll.

Bob:

You could keep it confidential.

Bob:

If you wanted to buy like an NPS, like ask everyone, what is our, on a scale

Bob:

of one to 10, what is our, what is our passion or what is our bringing it

Bob:

proposition and just make it transparent.

Bob:

And then the next question would be depending on where

Bob:

the value is, what can we do?

Bob:

What can so focus the retro, not on other stuff, focus the

Bob:

retro on relieving the team.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And what's.

Bob:

What's our Luma Lubin nation metric right now.

Bob:

Where do we want to loop unify ourselves in the future?

Bob:

What has happened?

Josh:

It's just going to help.

Josh:

We go from leaf blowers outside to, Lubin.

Josh:

Very.

Josh:

Residential phone ringing

Josh:

like a classic.

Josh:

It plugs into the wall phone to Bob making up words.

Josh:

I don't know what's happening.

Josh:

Sorry,

Bob:

Bob.

Bob:

I know, I know.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

I quit real quickly, judge.

Bob:

I have a telecom client.

Bob:

And we were having a zoom and that phone rang, they abused the

Bob:

crap out of me for that phone.

Bob:

And I deserved it actually.

Bob:

So the producers

Josh:

of the service that, that uses were

Bob:

laughing at you?

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So the, the other thing that.

Bob:

The other, the other thing I was saying that's related to this is Roman Pichler.

Bob:

Who's written a book about product ownership and he wrote a blog.

Bob:

I think I responded to it.

Bob:

So I'll send you some links to post.

Bob:

And he, he wrote a blog post that was he was picking on a team's performance.

Bob:

So a frozen team, a non lubed team.

Bob:

And he was talking about how to, how to attack the team, not attack, but

Bob:

how do you like addressing the team?

Bob:

And my response to him was I liked his article, but I was like, you

Bob:

know, it's not all about the team.

Bob:

So the morale of the team is related to the environment more than it is.

Bob:

So my response to him don't attack the team.

Bob:

The first thing is, is there anything in the organization that's minimizing

Bob:

the energy of the team then?

Bob:

Is there anything in the team's organization then, then look at

Bob:

management, organizational management.

Bob:

The teams managers then look at the team.

Bob:

So instead of starting with the team and I, and, and medic casters, don't I want

Bob:

the team should take ownership of this.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

But I think in parallel, it's look at your organizational ecosystem and check.

Bob:

Are there things in our, in our sort of atmosphere that are causing us to freeze

Bob:

and try to eradicate those as well?

Bob:

What do you, what do you think about that?

Bob:

So it's, it's that directional view.

Bob:

I

Josh:

agree.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

That's that's a, that's a leader.

Josh:

And going back to sports, you never, never is probably incorrect.

Josh:

You very rarely see a coach and a press conference.

Josh:

Not say it's his fault.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

As a

Josh:

leader, it's your fault.

Josh:

Whether you're a leader within the team, whether you're a leader of the teams,

Josh:

whether you're a leader of the company, everybody has to think about it like that.

Josh:

And.

Josh:

One of the things that you can do is this read lubrication

Josh:

because it's just like your car, it needs the regular maintenance.

Josh:

You can't let it go stay like this for a long time.

Josh:

So you have to keep these efforts focused because what you'll end up

Josh:

with is a car that's broken down

Bob:

the new dorm, right.

Bob:

It becomes the new norm and you don't even know.

Bob:

That the car is broken or, you know, I remember I had these old, you

Bob:

know, six cylinders and sometimes like a cylinder would freeze.

Bob:

Like I had a six cylinder engine and we, but when I took the mechanic, he's

Bob:

like, you're only running on like four cylinders of the 600 and like this one's

Bob:

broken totally or frozen, et cetera.

Bob:

So, but you don't, you know, that it's spitting, you know, that it's not

Bob:

there, but you sort of get used to.

Bob:

And yeah, I agree with that.

Bob:

That's the complacency.

Bob:

You, you, I think the energy medic casters is not so much how you

Bob:

accelerate, but that you recognize that you're not where you need to be,

Bob:

and you're doing something about it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

There's a, there's a million things you can do.

Josh:

And I think you're gonna have a hard time being wrong when you're

Josh:

trying to keep the lubrication going.

Josh:

The fact that you, and talk about it, say why we're doing this.

Josh:

So put it out front, that'll connect with people.

Josh:

And then they'll again, you're modeling the beach.

Josh:

Yep.

Bob:

One final re lube thing is do, I would say do it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So I think when we're unloaded and we're frozen, We're not just complacent,

Bob:

but we'll, we'll whack out a story.

Bob:

We'll ignore a definite we'll we'll ignore an acceptance criteria.

Bob:

We'll do shabby.

Bob:

We lose, I, my observation is teams lose their pride in craftsmanship as they

Bob:

lose their energy and their passion.

Bob:

And, and, and so that's another thing of ratchet up the crap.

Bob:

Like rat ratchet up the unit testing, ratchet up, you know, we talked about

Bob:

pairing like technical practices.

Bob:

What, what, what do you, what do you think I'm, I'm, I'm really

Bob:

thinking like the making sure do.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You know, don't, don't just throw things out the door do last, but

Bob:

what you do is excellent work.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

I was raised on and live by the, do it, right.

Josh:

Do it late.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Like if you just do it right the first time.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It's a lot easier, you know?

Josh:

So that, that, that was a thing that was drilled into my head

Josh:

and that I use with my kids.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

Like we, like, we talk about, well, Let's do it right.

Josh:

Do it light and let's just knock them out and do it.

Josh:

I

Bob:

would like to add that to that, you know, that net promoter score

Bob:

thing, I was suggesting, maybe that's a value on a scale of one to 10.

Bob:

How, how often are we doing it?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Like, like, are we proud?

Bob:

And are we proud and doing it right.

Bob:

And where are we agreed just to make that transparent.

Bob:

Did we nailed it?

Bob:

How do we do on this one?

Bob:

What do you think.

Josh:

I feel good about it.

Josh:

I mean, aside from the sound effects that were added at the Galen residents,

Josh:

I think those are not sound effects, machines that we've added into the

Bob:

podcast, that there was I've met a kisser.

Bob:

So there was a, a leaf blower outside and he, he or she was breaking relentless.

Bob:

You heard that Bob

Josh:

unknowingly behind the wall behind the blinds, gave them the.

Josh:

Because they were loud.

Josh:

Well,

Bob:

it wasn't, no, I didn't mind it petite.

Bob:

They didn't give up.

Bob:

No, they had that finger on

Josh:

the trigger.

Josh:

It intensified.

Josh:

Yeah,

Bob:

they were.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So from beautiful, downtown and loud, Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob Galen.

Bob:

I'm Josh Anderson shake and take care of y'all

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