In this powerful and deeply personal episode, we sit down with Chicago-based memoirist and men’s mental health advocate Paul Drugan, author of Forgiving Dr. Jekyll: From Hyde to Healing. Through raw storytelling and thoughtful insight, Paul explores childhood trauma, addiction, recovery, and the transformative power of forgiveness.

Raised in a silent, controlled Irish Catholic family rooted in stoicism, Paul endured physical and emotional abuse from his father — a respected physician and community leader — as he struggled with his developing sexual identity. The shame, silence, and anger followed him into adulthood, shaping years of addiction, lost love, and internal conflict.

But Paul’s story is not one of victimhood. It’s one of reclamation.

In this conversation, we unpack what forgiveness really means — especially in the context of men’s mental health. Paul challenges the common belief that forgiveness equals excusing harm or letting someone “off the hook.” Instead, he reframes forgiveness as an act of radical self-liberation — taking the hook out of yourself so the past no longer dictates your identity or future.

We explore:

• What forgiveness truly means for men navigating trauma and silence

• How forgiveness can coexist with accountability

• Why forgiveness may be the ultimate act of self-love

Paul reminds us that healing isn’t a single breakthrough moment — it’s a daily practice of awareness, acceptance, and action. And no matter how deep the wound or how early the damage, your dignity and worth were never destroyed. They are still there, waiting to be reclaimed.

This episode is for anyone who has carried shame in silence, struggled with identity, or wondered whether true freedom from the past is possible.

🔗 Connect with Paul Drugan:

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Website: https://www.pauldrugan.com

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Well, hello everybody and welcome back to another episode.

Today we have with us Paul Drugan.

He is a Chicago based memorist and men's mental health advocate.

His book, Forgiving Dr. Jekyll from High Do Healing Healing explores childhood trauma, addiction and recovery.

Reframing forgiveness as an act of radical self liberation.

Through storytelling and insight, he offers a blueprint for healing, resilience and reclaiming one's life.

Welcome, Paul.

Thank you, Tammy.

Thanks for having me.

I appreciate it.

Oh, yeah.

This is a conversation I really like to have, especially when you're dealing with addiction and recovery, because I don't know how many of the 12 step programs you've been through, but I know that there's always that step four that's always about forgiveness.

Right.

And so many people get stuck there.

And I just can't wait to have this conversation because I love that this is literally your message, your focus is on that radical self liberation and not forgive and forget per se.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, it's, it's challenging the standard.

And I was, I was in AA for about six or seven years.

Okay.

And, and I, I, I found the same thing as, you know, step forward, such a hurdle for people, even people who had come back, you know, who had been through it and then maybe relapse and come back.

It was always a stumbling block for, for people and because it's such a hard thing to think of and the old definitions really lend themselves to it being very difficult, you know, And I, I mean, the reason why I started looking at, at it this way before I wrote my book, you know, my dad and I had a very physical and emotional relationship in terms, and, you know, physical, I don't mean sexual, but it was, he, you know, he was very violent towards me.

And, and you know, his emotional abuse was really intense as well.

But then he died.

He died when he was 52.

He was, he died of hepatitis.

And, and that was about this time where I was realizing that I was brought up in a dysfunctional household because I was in college and I went to other people's houses and hung out with their families, you know, and I was like, this is not, you know, either this is not normal or my upbringing wasn't normal.

And I, you know, I came to the conclusion that mine was pretty dysfunctional, you know, and I was very angry.

This is before all the addiction stuff happened.

But, but then he was dead.

And so at the, you know, he died at the, at the same time that I started becoming very, very angry about how things went when I was a Child inform, formative years.

So age 13 to, you know, until I went to college, pretty much.

Right.

And you don't.

And like you said, you don't know if it's what you grow up thinking.

It's your normal.

That's normal to you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know if you, you know, if you.

Like you said, you experienced all these other people's houses.

I had very few places that I went as a child, for one, because my dad was afraid to be left alone with my mother.

So I was kind of like his.

I don't want to say babysitter, but he.

They were both alcoholics, but he was afraid to go to sleep with nobody else in the house because he was afraid that she would actually hurt him.

And I didn't spend the night at friends's house, and if I did, it was my one good friend.

We were good friends because we could.

Our parents partied together.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you know, that was my.

That's all I saw.

Yeah.

And, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's by design.

You know, I. I think that we grew up in the suburbs in Boston, and, you know, we were.

It was a very tight community in that, you know, we pretty much a lot of Irish Catholics in our neighborhood, and.

And, you know, but we grew up in silence.

You know, the kids.

I have two brothers and a sister.

And the house was very, very silent and quiet.

And because it was so controlled and ordered, you know, that was by design.

Right.

And that was the other thing that, you know, there was so much life and in other people's homes and things that I visited later on that it was, you know, it was so contrasted, you know, the way I was brought up.

It does a number on you.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

So talk about.

Let's just talk about your version of forgiveness.

I have a feeling we're going to have very same versions, only because I remember when people were talking to me about that Hawaiian Pono ono pono.

I can't even say it.

Like, I can't say the word.

But, yeah, I was like, no, no, like, there, you know, like, I don't know.

To me, it had a totally different meaning.

So talk about what you feel that forgiveness is.

So I think, you know, what I just.

What I just said is, you know, one of the problems with standard forgiveness narratives is that what do you do?

You know, you.

You ask yourself these questions.

What do you do if the person isn't around anymore?

Like, what if the.

The person that abused you or the people, you know, they died?

What if they're not receptive to your, you know, to your reaching out to them.

Is it talking, you know, talking about it and settling a score or, you know, kind of calming things down?

What if they're not receptive to that?

You know, so where does that leave you in terms of.

If you, if you know the old definition, if you choose to forgive, then you're the one that's.

That's, you know, given the energy to the other person.

Right.

To the person that abused you or the, you know, and, and it didn't make any sense to me.

And, you know, in.

In.

In, you know, in aa, too, when I got to that point, it was all the same stuff.

Like, people didn't understand that it wasn't about, you know, the.

The abuser put the hook in you.

That's.

That's how I like to say it.

And that hook stays with you until you do something about it.

You can't do anything about it if the person is not around anymore or refuses to, you know, come, you know, come to a kind of a reproach moment with you or, you know, there's so.

And it's always about the other person.

So, you know, to be really proactive about your own, you know, your own development is to remove the hook by yourself.

You know, just take it out and, you know, kind of knock that bridge down to the past.

So there.

There's a lot of, you know, to me, there's a lot of living in the present moment.

Like, Eckhart Tolle talks so much about the present moment and, and not that the past doesn't mean anything or that it hasn't influenced you.

It's just that you refuse to let it control your life, you know?

Absolutely.

And I think that's the key right there.

And I think that's the whole key with forgiveness is.

Yeah, as long as.

As long as you're holding on to all of the emotional charge that that has, you can't live a happy life.

You're letting.

And I say, you know, it's like people say to me, well, did you ever forgive your mother?

I'm like, I let go of anything that, you know, it's.

I let go of that anger and that hatred and that, you know, that guilt of.

She's your mom.

You should, you know, be blank.

She's your, you know, I. I don't know how many thousands of times I heard it.

You can't think that she's your mom.

You can't do that.

She's your mom.

And.

Or, you know, you have to forgive her.

Like, even when I was older and I was.

I mean, my mom actually passed when.

When I was 17.

Oh, wow.

And she.

She passed at 42 with cirrhosis of the liver.

Yeah.

And.

But it wasn't a year before she was passed that she was pimping me out to her drug dealers.

So people are like, you can't still, you can't be mad at her.

She's your mom.

I'm like, what are you talking about?

Like, that's insane.

Right?

It's like this magic word that erases everything that, you know.

And the people that.

That's leveled by people who probably haven't been through, you know, an abusive situation or traumatic situation, like you have, you know, that's what I mean by like the standard definition of forgiveness.

Everybody just thinks the same thing.

You know, that's just the way it should be.

And, and you know, to reframe it the way that I'm trying to do it help.

I know that it helped me out a lot, you know, and it was.

And you said a really, you know, great word, which is let go.

And that means that letting.

Letting go is taking the hook out of yourself.

That.

That means that you have done that.

Right.

And so that doesn't affect you from.

From really from then on.

And that's the most freeing thing that you can do.

It's, you know, that's.

And it is radical self liberation is because you.

If you're able to.

To do that, it's not an influence on you anymore.

And you can develop yourself, you know, progress yourself.

And, you know, that's.

That's so, you know, that's so valuable.

I mean, that's the goal.

Really.

Absolutely.

And you know, the other thing too, about forgiveness is that you don't, you know, under the old way of forgiving, you don't really let it go, you know, you.

Because that.

That kind of.

I don't want to get too woo.

But that.

That, you know, energy still exists between you and that.

That person that did these horrible things to you.

And, you know, it.

It's really.

It's bad energy and it's still there.

And, and no matter what.

And you can always relapse.

You know, I mean, it's kind of like an addiction you could relapse and hate that for.

Wake up one day and say, you know, I'm not forgiving you anymore.

Right.

So I take it back and.

And, you know, you just land back to where you started again.

Well, and it's interesting, you know, it's Funny that you mentioned the fact of the.

What do you do when that person is no longer there?

I mean, I look at the people that abused me or, or did me wrong, and first of all, half of them didn't even care.

I mean, they didn't care.

They weren't looking for forgiveness.

So, like, my thinking was, why should I spend so much time and energy making this person feel okay about it when they could care less?

Like, they don't.

They're not asking forgiveness.

I'm.

I remember talking to one person and I said, when's the last time somebody that abused you came and said, will you.

Will you forgive me?

Very seldom.

I mean, sometimes it happens.

A lot of times with a parent, you know, on their deathbed will be like, let's.

Can you forgive me?

Well, that's.

Again, that's about them.

That's wanting, right, Those superficial words so that they think they have a place in heaven, literally.

That's.

Yeah.

You know, that's.

That is like, that hits home.

My.

My dad, when he was.

He was a doctor and he never drank it.

I don't think he drank a day in his life.

And, you know, he had no substance abuse problems, but when he was in medical school, he pricked his finger with a tainted needle and it was hepatitis.

And back then, this was in the 80s, they didn't really have, you know, they.

That type of hepatitis just kind of eats slowly eats away at your liver and.

Right.

So they went in to do a gallbladder operation.

His liver was gone pretty much, and they didn't have a transplant, you know, things back then.

So he just.

He passed away.

But on the day that he died, we were all at the hospital and, you know, his mom was.

My grandmother was alive and his sister, my mom and our whole family and a couple of friends were all at the hospital.

And he called me.

He.

He told the nurse that he.

He wanted to see me.

So I went in to his room and he was a very handsome guy.

You know, he was very distinguished looking and.

And he didn't look like he was dying at all, you know, but he knew he was and we knew he was.

The doctor told us that.

So he had this.

And then he got this panic look in his eye and.

And said, I love you.

And it's the first time he ever said that to me.

I never heard those words come from his mouth.

And he said, come over here and kiss me and please tell me that you love me.

And that was that.

That was for him because he knew he was dying and he wanted to, you know, he wanted to get out of that foxhole and go to heaven.

Right?

You know, that wasn't for me because I did, you know, I, I, you know, I kissed him on his cheek again.

The first time that I ever had any physical contact with him other than, you know, a shove or a slap or, you know, that, that type of thing.

And then it was over.

You know, for him, it was over.

It was like, okay, now go get your mother.

You know, it was pretty obvious to me what that was all about.

Right?

And that you, so you're right.

You're right.

It's always, always, always about, you know, I love the story about Nelson Mandela.

When he, he got out of jail and became president, he ran into one of his old cellmates and they, you know, they, they talked a little bit.

And so Mandela says to him, have you forgiven our jailers?

And the other guy says, I will never do that.

How could you say, how could you even say that?

I'll never do that?

And so Mandela says, oh, so you're still in prison then.

You know, that's a perfect, Mm, you know, perfect way to look at it.

I think.

I love that story.

Right?

So let me ask you this, because talking about the whole forgiveness thing, and, and I tell my clients the same thing when they're like, I can't, I can't.

I can't forgive them for what they did.

I'm like, we're not condoning, we're not letting it off the hook.

We're, we're literally letting go.

I'm like, so that's, that's what I work with my clients.

Like, let's re.

Redefine forgiveness.

What does it mean?

And how do you kind of equate that with the forgiveness for yourself?

Is that something you had to deal with?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was ashamed of myself, you know, and I lived with shame because I was taught how to do that.

You know, I was taught shame, to me means that you're bad.

Right?

And so my, you know, my whole life I felt that way about myself that, you know, I, I, and I got into all the classic things like self sabotage addictions, failed relationships.

All of those things were in my, in my, you know, wheelhouse.

And I became very good at them because that's the life, that's the kind of space that I knew and that I believed in.

And so, you know, when I, when I kind of went through my forgiveness, I had to say to myself that I was worthy of, you know, reclaiming and, you know, reclaiming My life.

If I hadn't done that, then I wouldn't have gotten into that exercise at all because I didn't feel like I was worth it.

So that took a lot of work for me.

It was very, very hard for me to.

To get rid of the shame that I carried.

And, you know, it's.

I haven't really thought too deeply about this, but.

But, you know, they're.

They.

They're both intertwined, shame and forgiveness, you know, but definitely one of the things when you can.

When you can liberate yourself from the past, that shame goes away.

You know, I don't.

I don't.

I haven't really thought too much on how that, you know, how that happens.

But.

But it does because, you know, I think you.

You think to yourself, you think that you're worthy, you know, that.

That these things that were.

Were done to you were placed there by somebody else.

And I keep going back to that, you know.

Right.

These things were not me.

I didn't sit down and tell myself that I was, you know, I was a horrible person or that I was, you know, to be blamed for everything that went wrong.

And, you know, I didn't do that.

That wasn't me.

You know, we're all born perfect, you know, and.

And everything that happens after that forms us into what we become.

And, you know, and so it's just.

It's so important to get to that point.

And that's kind of when, you know that.

That you.

To me, I knew that I. I had, you know, I had forgiven.

I had forgiven himself and me, because I, you know, there was such a.

That relationship was so strong, you know, in a bad way.

But we had.

Even after he died, you know, I just sunk into this, you know, into all my addictions and everything.

It was for, you know, for a lot of different reasons.

That's where I went.

And, you know, I always had a great job.

I always, you know, I. I.

My schooling, I got my master's degree and went through that.

I was in a great relationship and that I loved, you know, I loved being in.

And all those things I just.

I threw out the window.

I.

You know, when I would start getting successful, yeah, I'd throw it away.

I do something, sabotage it, because I never thought that I was good enough to complete it, you know, So I was.

I was like a bag of incomplete things.

That's literally such a common pattern, too, is just be.

And that's at the core of everything I do.

Every single person I work with.

The core of it is because of something that happened in their life, they don't feel good enough.

And when you don't feel good enough, worthy enough to do whatever you, you're shameful about every single thing you do and everything.

Because even if you know it's good, you're like, I'm still not good enough.

Like it's not, you know, I'm not good enough.

Not.

It's not good enough, but I'm not good enough to, to be worthy of this.

So you work well.

First of all, let's talk about your book because I absolutely love that title, Forgiving Dr. Jekyll from Hide.

Yeah, thank you.

I love that.

What talk about that a little bit.

Tell us about it.

So he.

So I always, I always knew that the forgiveness part of it would.

Was the central theme, right.

And the reason why I use Dr. Jekyll is because we, you know, he was a very.

He was.

So generations of my family came from the same, you know, a half a mile away from where I grew up.

Right.

And, and we.

The.

His.

My family was very well known.

He was, he was just the epitome of kind of a 50s or 60s professional.

Right.

He had a, he was the town dentist like my grandfather was.

He took over his practice when he, when he, when my grandfather died and everybody in town knew him.

He was a member of the Rotary Club.

The, he was on the board of education, you know, all these.

He was a professional level golfer.

Just everything, you know, on the outside was we lived in a beautiful house and belonged to the country club.

You know, always well dressed and well behaved and everything on the outside was just, you know, this little fairy tale.

And when he, But I still had, you know, again, I didn't know what other people had gone through.

I knew what I went was going through.

And his wake in his funeral when he died, it was such a telling thing for me because people.

He died in July and It was like 100 degrees outside and people were stood in a.

Three blocks long to get into the funeral home.

You know, that's how many people knew him.

And all these stories were like, who the hell are these?

Are they talking about?

Like I didn't know this guy who they, you know what they were saying.

I thought it was somebody else, but he was so his, his Persona on the outside and he, you know, was so, just so different from what I had.

Had experienced and, and I was proud at the, I, you know, admit I was proud at the moment because, you know, you feel special that, you know, all these people thought so highly of your, of your dad.

But then when you put it in context later, when all the dust settles, you get very angry.

Yeah, you know, I did.

Anyway, you felt like they got the best of him.

You didn't.

Yeah.

Oh, that's a really good way to put it.

They did.

You know, he was funny.

He was, you know, he was so kind.

I, I don't think I've ever heard people say they wanted to go to the dentist, but that's how, that's how he was.

They wanted, you know, he took care of a lot of kids.

Pediatric dentistry.

And the parents were all we loved, you know, our kids loved going to him because he was so nice and, you know, and everything.

So that's, you know, it was kind of a no brainer to me that, that it was, there was such a dichotomy between his private life and his public life.

And you hear that a lot with people.

Right.

I mean, it's not, wasn't only him.

There are lots of people like that.

But in my, the con, in my context, I, I, you know, I knew what that was like and so, you know, and I, the things that he did, you know, to me were just so violent and, and I was the only one in the family that experienced that.

He was kind of very stern with my brothers and my sister was the princess, so she always got the, you know, really best of him and, but, but he was always, you know, very strict with us and a disciplinary and everything, but he never, he never touched my brothers.

It was always, it was me.

Were you the oldest?

I was the oldest boy, yeah.

Okay.

To the point where when I was writing this, I called my, my brothers and I was like, did he ever hit you?

You know, because we never really talked about it that much and, and they both said no.

He never laid a hand on either one of us.

You know, he yelled at us and, but, you know, and a lot of this stuff took place in, in private too.

It was just the two of us.

But a lot of it did take place with my family around as well.

Right, right.

So.

You know, that's, that's how I came, you know, that's, that's where the name came from.

And I, I just, you know, I mean, it's so telling to me that people, I hope people pick up on the fact that that's kind of what it's about.

It's like this mystery of, you know, I mean, I don't get into why he was like that, obviously.

I just get it.

I just get into how that affected me exactly.

You know, how it brought me to the point where I needed to be at the.

You know.

Yeah.

It's funny how people live these lives.

And it's funny that you mentioned kind of my.

My mom's family was, I think, from Lithuania or she was from somewhere, but the same thing.

It was, like, very well to do.

My grandfather drove a Rolls Royce, and he was a child psychiatrist.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And my mother actually.

Drug addict, alcoholic, her whole life was a child psychiatrist.

Yeah.

So I kind of joke.

I'm like, yeah, I got manipulated by the best of the best.

Like, not only did she know children's brains, so she knew how to mess with them and manipulate them, but it was the same thing.

And it wasn't until I remember I was living in.

My dad had sent me to live with my mother right before she died, and she was just brutal.

And I remember my grandfather was sending her $10,000 a month.

Oh, my God.

And I was like.

I remember calling him up, going, you know, you're killing her, right?

Because she's snorting it up her nose.

She's.

She's not feeding her daughter.

Like, I was going to the grocery store and stealing food because there was no food in the house.

And I remember him.

And I get.

You know, after I got thinking about it, and that's really what helped me with a lot of the letting go, Honestly, I finally really understood him.

So I understood how she became the way she was.

And it was like anything she did, all of a sudden I was like, that wasn't her.

She didn't.

You know, when she was 13 and she was bulimic or anorexic or something, he sent her to boarding school for four years.

Like, you know what I mean?

So it's like, that helped me a lot.

And sometimes just, you know, I try to tell people, especially when the people are still living or.

And it doesn't even have to be the person that's abusing you, but anybody in life, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Because people don't wake up and go, I want to hate the world.

I want to abuse the people that I should be loving.

They don't do that, you know, so it's like, if we can start flipping and getting that more empathetic kind of like, what are they going through today versus.

And how did they get there versus the actual acts?

Because I know that's so much of the forgiveness of yourself is when you, you or drinking or drugging or whatever you're doing to numb that pain.

And then you have to add on all the guilt of all the people that you hurt while you were drinking and drunking.

You know, it's like it's a vicious cycle.

So, yeah, it is.

I, you know, there's a lot to be said too, and I experience this in my family and, and I, I always say that going through what I went through was a great gift for me because I learned compassion and I learned empathy and I learned self love.

All these things that were, you know, always out of reach for myself.

But one of the things is that, you know, in my family it was a legacy thing and because my grandpa, who I loved very much, he was the nicest guy guy again, who really knew what he was like.

But my family has a, apparently were great actors, but he was the kindest guy and he was always very nice to us and, But I guess he was a monster too.

And his father probably, you know, I don't want to, you know, just kind of generalize it by saying Irish families were like that, but, you know, a lot were.

And so that abuse was a, was a legacy that because of what my brothers experienced on their own and what they saw happening to me when they had families of their own, they said to themselves, I'm not going to raise my kids like I was raised.

And so they broke the legacy, which is, which is a blessing.

You know, I mean, I wake up all the time and I just thank God that that happened.

My nephews and my nieces are all wonderful, well rounded, confident, successful kids, you know, because of the way that they were brought up.

Right.

And you know, and I always say.

That it takes one person just saying what was done to me wasn't right.

So how am I going to make better, how am I going to become a better person instead of staying a victim and just carrying on and being that same person to the next generation?

Yeah, it's very powerful.

You know, it's, and it's, it's, it's a good, like I said, it's just if you, if, you know, you get to the point where you can really count your blessings, which I think when you learn to forgive and heal is much easier to do.

You know, you can look at, you know, not that you live in the past, but you can look at your past and, and I do this, you know, I have a long way to go, believe me, to, you know, there are Lots of things that I want to change in myself.

But I got to that.

That hump where I knew I knew how to do it.

And I, you know, I mean, I think when you.

When you healer and when you learn to forgive yourself, you become so much more aware of yourself and how you act towards things.

And one of, you know, so one of the things that I had was I had this rage in me, and I was very easy to, you know, I had to keep myself in check because I would.

I would just be enraged at things, and I didn't even know it.

You know, I mean, I just.

I.

It was just something that happened to me when I started healing.

I could.

I kind of looked inward and thought to myself, when I got in these situations where I would normally just kind of, you know, lose my temper, I would say to my.

I would stop and I'd say to myself, your body is experiencing anger.

And.

And this is why it's not, you know, I mean, a response is not warranted or, you know, there's.

There's.

This is, you know, and you became very.

I became very aware of my surroundings and the circumstances that I was in.

And so I was able to just, you know, calm down and.

Yep, that was a big thing.

You know, I love somewhere you wrote.

I don't remember the exact quote, but.

And it was something you wrote in either an application to me or something, but it was like, aha.

Isn't one moment.

It's the process of awareness, Something in action.

Yeah, yeah.

Acceptance and action.

And I.

That hit me so hard.

Like, I was like, oh, my God.

Because I was on the way to a speech one day and I was giving a speech.

I was ready to go speaking in front of, like, 400 women.

And on the way to the speech, I heard a podcast, and the lady said, oh, awareness, That's.

That's the key.

Once you become aware, you literally.

The rest will fall into place.

And in my mind, I was like, no, no, that's the first step.

Like, you have to be aware.

You have to accept that if you don't change and if you don't take action, nothing will ever change.

And so my whole speech, even though I had spent months preparing this other speech, I got up on stage in front of this 400 women and talked about awareness, acceptance, and action.

And I. Wow, that's when you.

It was funny.

And my friend said to me, I said, how'd I do?

And she's like, well, you freaking nailed it.

But you didn't say anything.

You planned on saying And I was like, oh, whoops.

That's a, That's a gift.

If you can change midstream like that and go in another direction, you know.

You were inspired.

You know, it was so funny.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm really bad.

I don't write speeches.

I don't.

That's why I don't write speeches because it's like whatever.

I get downloads like in the moment and I don't know what I'm going to say.

But when I read those words that you said like there I was like, damn.

And then I think you.

I had it somewhere.

I was on my computer somewhere.

But I don't remember what you said.

And it was like.

It was like the perfect line of healing isn't the aha moment.

And then the awareness, acceptance and action and then the.

I don't remember what else you said.

Like replaced with understanding and something.

I don't remember exactly what you said, but it was so perfect.

I was like, oh God, I got to use that as a line somewhere.

I'll have to quote you on it now.

That's.

It's okay.

You can.

That's all right.

Claim it if you want.

I.

It was.

Yeah, I was.

I mean the, the.

The.

The real.

It.

It.

It's so, you know, nobody.

The thing.

The problem I have with all this stuff going on now and I'm glad it's happening, you know, because I think that everything that's going on in the world there, you know, the pendulum is swinging back to become, you know, to self awareness and, and compassion and empathy.

I really feel that.

But, but you know, in that way there are all these hacks, you know, it's like a health hack or you know, psych.

Psych psychology hack or something that you can do right away to make, you know, make things all all right.

And, but that's just not.

I mean it's.

Forgiveness is a messy thing and healing is a very messy and long term thing.

Yeah.

And.

But that's why it gets so.

It's so important once you get to that point, you have put the work in, you know, and, and you.

And that.

That pays off in spades.

Yep.

It really.

100.

100.

And you're right.

It's not mess.

I mean it isn't clean.

But it's so necessary for your peace of mind and your just your mental aware, you know, just your, your peace really.

You know, you want I tell people if you're sitting there and when people say things, you get a gut punch or you, Your shoulders are up.

You know, we walk around like this, we're tense, we're angry, we're ready to fight, literally.

Because we are not at peace with ourselves and the stuff that happened.

And you're right, it's not an easy process, but you forgiving is a huge part of it.

And I'm so glad you came on to talk about that.

So glad.

Thank you, Tammy.

I really enjoyed it.

I, you know, I mean, like I said, you're.

These things are so good for me because they, you know, you can synthesize your thought and make sense to you, to yourself really.

You know, and so I really appreciate you having me on.

It's one.

Yeah, no problem.

And every time you tell your story, you heal a little bit more because I'm a big, I'm a big.

I work a lot with the nervous system and I'm like, get it out of your body.

Get it out of your body.

Like, go, go.

Good for you.

You're doing a great service.

You know, I love it.

So if people want to find out more about you, work with you, talk to you, how do they reach you?

So My website is pauldrugin.com and my book's coming out.

April 15th is launch date.

Oh, yay.

Yeah.

And just sign up for.

I, I have a blog on my website that talks a lot about, you know, I don't want to pin myself into men's mental health, but that's my lived experience.

Right.

So I don't, I.

That's how I know to, you know, how I dealt with things and what I think or that is going on with God, men these days.

But it's really for every.

We're.

Forgiveness is not gender based.

No.

Right.

No.

But yeah, I have, I have a blog that I would love people to read and they're contact, you know, just contact me through my website pretty much.

I'm on Facebook and Instagram too and those links are on my website.

And so I, you know, I hope to be doing this a lot more in the future.

I, you know, I would.

I, I really want to.

I feel so strongly about it because I know what a difference it made in my life and you know, I just want to really share that with others.

You know, that's really, that's really my goal is to be of service as long as I can.

I'm getting older.

I'm not, I'm not as a number.

Just a number.

That's so true.

Okay, so I pulled up.

Thank you so much.

Again.

I pulled, I found up.

Found your quote and this is what you said.

Steal this.

Healing isn't an aha moment or a clean ending.

It's a practice of awareness, acceptance, and action.

Where shame is replaced with understanding and silence with voice.

And the hope is this, no matter how early the wound or how deep the damage, your dignity and worth were never destroyed.

They're still there, waiting to be reclaimed.

Mic drop, bam.

Thank you, Paul.

You're welcome.

You go and use that as much as you can.

I mean, I will quote you on that because that's my message.

Like, it doesn't, you know, your past.

I always say my past might have designed me, but it not.

Did not define me.

Like, it might have made me put all the parts together and made what you're looking at, but only I can decide what I want to do with that information going forward.

Yeah, that is, that's.

That is a major truth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you again, but I'm going to.

Well, I don't know.

Usually I asked the listener or the guest to leave the listeners with one more piece of advice or something, but that quote, I feel like just summed it up.

Unless you have something big picture that you want to add.

I, you know, the one thing that I, I, I've been on a couple of podcasts before, and the one thing I always close with is, you know, for people who are listening who are going through this, that they're not alone, you know, that, that they're, they're.

First of all, you have yourself, and that's the most important person.

Right?

But there are others out there.

Whether you're going through an addiction or, you know, an abuse issue or PTSD or whatever, you're not alone.

There are people.

And if you want to look at it spiritually, you know, you're.

There's a divine presence within all of us that means that you are, you know, you're with someone or something.

And.

That, that that thing is watching over you all the time.

You know, I don't.

Don't want to get too religious, but.

No, that's fine, but.

Amen.

I, I say it all the time.

You know, between, between my God and myself, I got everything I need.

I just gotta figure out pieces together.

You know, That's a great way to put it.

So.

And that God could be whatever you, Whatever you think your God is, that's fine.

That's whatever you want.

Whatever you want that to be.

Yeah, we've any.

I feel like anybody that has ultimately gotten to the part where.

Point where you're at, where you're speaking.

And you're and you're sharing your story, and you feel that liberation at some point has had to accept the fact that it's bigger than ourselves.

Yep.

Absolutely.

You know.

Yeah.

So.

Well, thank you again so much for coming on, Paul.

I really appreciate it.

Thanks, Tammy.

Thanks, George.

Thanks for everything that you do.

This is so valuable to people.

Well, I love it.

And for everybody else out there listening, you heard it doesn't matter if you're 25 or 105, you have the the peace and the serenity inside of you is out there for the taking.

You just have to know that you're not alone.

Find the resources, love on the people, and for sure, love on yourselves.

So you all have a blessed week, and we will see you back.