Luke was out doing ~boss-coded things~ so co-host Erin interviewed fellow RANGE reporter Aaron Hedge on his newest big story: “A burning question for police: Does ‘deescalation’ mean ‘up to lethal force’?

If you’re not a big fan of reading 4k word stories, but you want to know about how Spokane’s police force — the third deadliest per capita in the nation — thinks about use-of-force and deescalation techniques, listen now!

Hi folks.

2

It's Aaron.

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This week I was joined on the radio

show by the other Aaron on staff,

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but recently put out a big story on

deescalation and what exactly that

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word means to the Spokane police force.

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I have been really

struggling to write an intro.

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So I think I'm going to

keep it short and simple.

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Listen to the podcast.

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And if you're not much of the

listener, what are you doing here?

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Reid has a story.

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Hi folks, you're listening

to KYRS MedicaLake Spokane.

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This is Free Range, a co

production of KYRS and Range Media.

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I'm Erin, and this week I'm flying

solo as a host while Luke does

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important boss coded things.

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But I'm joined by my fellow reporter

and fellow Erin, Aaron Hedge, to talk

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about his most recent story on police

violence in Spokane and how that

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could be impacted by ideas around what

exactly constitutes de escalation.

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Hedge, how are you doing this week?

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I'm doing pretty good.

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I'm glad to have the story out.

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It was a, it was a, it was an

odyssey, but I'm glad to be here.

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Alright, so a quick

note for our listeners.

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As reporters, we are juggling

so much information from so

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many sources all the time.

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And when we publish our final

written product, we fact check

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everything, and our editors do too.

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Talking off the cuff like this

about a story is a little scary for

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a reporter, because it could be It

comes with less of a safety net.

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We might get a tiny thing wrong

here and there that we otherwise

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would have been able to run past an

editor or compare against our notes.

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We are going to obviously do

our best to get every single

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detail perfect, but we might not.

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And when you get off the road or

away from your radio or whatever,

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you can read our full story at kyrs.

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org slash show slash free dash range.

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If you wanna get the full picture.

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Alright, so, on Tuesday, Hedge, I saw you

frantically run into the office, drop your

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backpack off, and head out to somewhere.

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What were you up to?

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So on Tuesday, about midday, I was

I was headed to a regular protest

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that is organized by Debbie Novak,

who is the mother of David Novak, who

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was killed by Spokane police in 2019

on January 7th, which was Tuesday.

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This is the sixth

anniversary of his death.

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It's the 72nd protest

that Debbie has organized.

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Oh, so when you say regular, are

you talking every week since it's

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every month on the 7th of the month.

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And it's to commemorate the day that he

was, that he, um, it's less to commemorate

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it than it is to try to bring him justice.

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And a monthly reminder that this

is a huge problem in Spokane.

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Okay, so there's this protest

every month at the what?

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The Spokane County Courthouse, right

outside of it on Broadway there.

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Okay and Debbie's trying to, remind

people about what happened to her son

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to seek accountability and justice

from the Spokane police, and I think

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one thing you told me that I thought

was particularly interesting, Debbie's

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monthly The 7th of the month protest

is not the only monthly police

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accountability protest there is, right?

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No, I believe since she started people

have been joining her for these protests.

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I think every person that I saw

out there on Tuesday had either

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had a friend or a family member,

some loved one, who was you know.

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Who is killed by police

brutality here in Spokane.

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Each case is different but they

have a lot of common threads.

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And recently in the last couple

of years, I think a couple of more

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families have started hosting regular

monthly protests that are very similar.

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The family of Bjorn Manycolors

his mother, Cynthia, holds a.

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Holds a very similar protest on

the 4th of every month from 5 to

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or from 4 to 5 in the afternoon.

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And then, the family of Don Hegel

who was killed by the Spokane County

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Sheriff's deputies holds A very similar

protest on the 29th of each month.

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That's the day of the month both of those

both of those family members were killed.

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And so it seems to be a growing thing.

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And what's really striking to me

about that is it's just a really

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accessible way of understanding

the scope of this problem.

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When you go out there and it's not a

huge crowd, but it's a lot of people.

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It's, it's probably between a dozen

and two dozen people who all had a

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family member or a friend or a loved

one who, who was killed by police and

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I think that's significant because

it suggests that this is a common

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problem that is across Spokane.

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Was this the first one of these

protests that you'd been to?

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Yes.

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And how did it feel to attend it?

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What were you thinking as a reporter?

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Well, so, so I go there and, I,

and I don't know all the stories.

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I, this is my first police accountability

story that I've ever written about.

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So I've never written about this

before and I go there with very little

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context and I see people who I don't

know and I approach them And it's a

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humbling experience to approach these

people and say, just like understanding

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as you walk up to them that they've

had this awful tragedy and that's

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why they're there in their life.

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And they're, it's not it's a, there's a

somber nature to the event just because

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of the topic matter, but they're the

protesters are there in good spirits.

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They were all, they were smiling,

they were laughing together.

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But I have to approach them and

acknowledge that, a member of their

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family has died many reporters have to do.

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And they're always willing to

just, lay everything they know

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out on, on the table for me.

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So I walk up to them and I say, My

name's Aaron, I'm I'm a reporter, and

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I'm hoping that I can talk to you about

your loved one who died and how you feel,

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and then you have to get into the nitty

gritty of the details, cause a lot of

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this deals with police policy, and you

have to ask them questions about that.

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Not everybody's focused on that.

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Some of them are very focused

on that, but not everybody is.

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Yeah.

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It's just it's one of the more real

raw experiences in reporting and it

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was clarifying Just about the scope

of this issue that I've never really

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engaged with before, so it was humbling.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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Okay, so actually, let's back up.

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What exactly is this story that

you went to this protest for?

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Was it just a generic story about

police violence, or was there

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some sort of specific question

you were trying to answer?

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So it's been in the news recently that the

Spokane Police Department, it consistently

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ranks among the top ten deadly police

departments in the entire United States.

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We're currently ranked as number

three by the police accountability

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organization mapping police violence.

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And that's something that's, it's pretty

widely reported, most of the papers have

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reported on it, we've reported on that.

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This is like a per capita number, right?

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Per capita, thank you, yeah.

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So, but the Underneath that, a lot of

the advocates that I've talked to and

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some of the actual government watchdogs

that I've talked to feel that part of

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the reason that Spokane police are so

violent is a school of thought among some

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police, and I don't know how many police

feel this way that up to lethal force

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constitutes a form of de escalation.

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De escalation is just basically,

it's a police practice where

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they're trying to Lower the

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Just lower, lower the danger in a

potentially dangerous situation or tense

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situation that they're responding to.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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I, not to interject, it's a funny

story during a very serious topic,

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but I did a ride along with the

police I guess it would have been last

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year now, but like late last year.

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year and I went out with their behavioral

health unit which sort of is supposed

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to go out and de escalate situations

with people who might be experiencing

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mental health crises or people who might

be like frequent flyers of the system,

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build a relationship with folks, be able

to speak their language and be somebody

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that they can trust because a lot of

times, folks living on the streets or

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folks undergoing a mental health crisis

see somebody in uniform and have an

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instant gut reaction to that and the

very first ride along, or very first case

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I went out on with the police officer

I was shadowing was a man undergoing a

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psychotic break, and he had been stalking

a bikini, or just a regular barista.

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He'd been stalking a barista.

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Sorry, I've been doing too

much bikini barista reporting.

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And following him.

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made some vague threats they tried

to go and talk to him because he

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had a diagnosed health condition.

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He'd had interactions with the

police before they knew what

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was going on with this guy.

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He was off his meds and this was a

pattern for him when he got off his

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meds, they'd gone to take him in and

he had waved a weed whacker at them.

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So instead of having a confrontation

or A situation that might turn violent.

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At that point they had backed away

and left and the officer that I was

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shadowing had reached back out to this

guy over text and started like a kind

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of, a conversation with him and the

man was like, I I'm really interested

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in being in the special forces.

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I want to do special

investigations for you guys.

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And so in order to have a conversation.

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A conversation with this man,

and what ended up happening

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was an involuntary commitment.

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But in order to get him into a safe space

where there was no weapons involved,

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where there was less possibility of

escalation, the officer I was shadowing

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invited him out to a neutral location

where they could go through his resume

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and talk about how he might end up.

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in special investigations on the force

just to get him to a neutral location

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where he didn't have a weapon, didn't

have a weed whacker, didn't, wasn't on

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his own turf where police might not know

what's going on or what he has access to.

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And then they were able to safely take

in this guy who was, like, I think a

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veteran with MMA fighting experience.

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So even without a weapon, they were a

little worried it might turn violent.

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They were able to bring him

in without any use of force.

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He wasn't happy about it.

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It did turn into an involuntary

commitment, but like the whole sort

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of rigamarole and like the fake setup

or whatever was what the officer

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I was shadowing considered to be

an effort of de escalation because

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it meant that there was going to

be no, no use of force whatsoever.

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That is an excellent

example of de escalation.

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That's exactly.

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And that tactic of trying to appeal

to somebody's interests and being

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invested in their situation is a

central factor in de escalation.

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If you read any of the literature about

it, it will say you want to have empathy

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and understand the person's situation and,

this guy wanted a, he wanted a job the

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officer who responded recognized that and

said, okay let's talk about what you want.

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And that's precisely what deescalation is.

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Whereas, I mean, I think we're, I

think I, a lot of people in my world

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at least are very familiar with these

really gruesome videos of police

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shootings that get released often.

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Months, often years after a killing

and what in those videos are often

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police rushing into situations

that they don't fully understand.

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They might have a little bit of

information from a house call or

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something like that, but it's not, it's

never confirmed until they get onto

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the site and they open, often they open

fire or they use up to deadly force.

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Without even trying to understand

what's going on with the person.

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And this is the thing that happened with

a man whose family was protesting on,

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on, on Tuesday named Robert Bradley.

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Police had gotten a call that

he was carrying around an AR 15

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rifle from his neighbor who had

some sort of conflict with Robert.

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And the police showed up to his place,

and what he was doing was he was unloading

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his van from a camping trip and bringing

things from his van into his house.

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And some of those things were guns.

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And the police, you can see

it on the body cam video, the

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police approach the situation.

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They I think they enter the scene

and within Within five seconds, they

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identify themselves as police, and

within two seconds from them identifying

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themselves, they've fatally shot Robert

Bradley, who later died in the hospital.

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The city of Spokane.

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This week, settled with,

settled a wrongful death

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lawsuit with Bradley's fiance.

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His family still has another his kids, I

think, still have another ongoing suit.

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That's right.

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So, these things have a tale on them, but

in the moment, it's, It's, you're gonna

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do, you're gonna do one of two things.

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You're gonna try to, and it's, I mean,

there's a spectrum between these two

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things, but you're gonna try to figure

out what's going on with the person

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and try to like, figure out a peaceful

solution to it, and that is de escalation.

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Or you're gonna go in, the way the

Spokane police officers did with Robert

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Bradley and that's a terrible outcome.

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And I think most people would prefer.

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And I haven't talked to anybody

who doesn't prefer this the former.

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Yeah, and you use that

phrase, up to lethal force.

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I, the, that qualifier of up

to seems like it's doing a lot

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of work, cause I can't tell.

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If that means everything before lethal

force can be considered de escalation.

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I know one of the examples from your

story was, oh, if somebody's waving a

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knife around, and threatening someone

with a knife, and you shoot them with

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a beanbag round, and that causes them

to drop the knife, then that has de

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escalated the situation, because it didn't

turn more violent than it needed to.

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Or does up to include fatally

shooting somebody could be

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considered an act of de escalation?

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Yeah, it's a really good question, and

I think that is, that, that question,

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that I'm not clear on an answer is

part of the problem, because Everybody

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has, there's a spectrum of definitions

of what constitutes de escalation.

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And the person you just

quoted is the president of the

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police guild, David Duncan.

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And, I see the logic in that, I do.

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But I do, it exists in a space that

is very in the middle of a, a, a.

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this idea that up to lethal force

constitutes de escalation, and the

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opposite view, which is that force

is never de escalation, which is

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something that the recently hired

police chief of of SPD said to me.

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He said, force is the

antithesis of de escalation.

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And so there's a broad, there's a broad

range of Of under, of understanding.

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And so, so that phrase, up to I

think most of the advocates that

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I've spoken to interpret that

as including killing somebody.

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And I don't know if everybody

would agree with that.

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So it's a little, it's a

little muddy right now.

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But I'm going to keep reporting and see

if I can clarify some of those things.

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Okay, so, we've got the central conflict

here, but I'm unsure, this is a really

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interesting philosophical debate about

what de escalation is, and you've given

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me the emotional stakes here of, there's

these families, and they have these

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monthly protests to mourn their loved

ones that were lost to police violence.

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Why a story now?

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So last month, the police ombuds which

is an office, it's an oversight office

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that is basically a civilian Check on

police and it's it's gotten a little bit

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more power in recent years and it's been

issuing these reports that and some of

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its reports, it gives reports to a body

called the the ombuds commission and

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that commission can make recommendations,

but it doesn't have a lot of power.

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But the ombudsman Bart Logue

issued a report in December.

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That examined a case where a police,

a Spokane police officer had exerted

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force on a person who was actually

a victim of a reported assault.

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And this person got injured, and it went

through a review process, and it ended

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up in the Purview of a body called the

Use of Force Review Board, which normal

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citizens don't really have a good eye on.

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It's not explicitly secret.

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I was able to get some information

about who is on this board and

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how it works, and there's actually

a public document that describes

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how it works and how it's formed.

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But in, in that Use of Force Review Board

meeting where they reviewed this case,

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Some of the officers, well, I'm

just going to quote from the report.

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The report reads and they're,

they don't the ombuds report of

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what happened at the meeting.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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I mean, they reviewed the case

too, but it partly reports on

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what happened at the meeting.

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And it says at the review board,

a question was asked if there was

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any other steps the officer could

have taken prior to using force.

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One member stated that we

could have used lethal force.

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And then there's an ellipsis.

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And then it says, And for those

of you who don't do journalism, an

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ellipsis means that we're omitting

a chunk of text that maybe is not

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directly relevant to the quote.

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So sometimes somebody will write

something and then they'll go off

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track and then they'll come back to

the point that they're trying to make.

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So we just omitted something for

space here, is what that means.

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Thanks for clarifying.

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I often get lost in the jargon.

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Then it goes on to say, one

member even stated, up to lethal

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force can be de escalation.

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When the ombudsman Bartlow explained

that to the commission, you could

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feel people get very uncomfortable.

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And a lot of the commissioners

felt that sentiment is incorrect

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and that any kind of force does

not constitute de escalation.

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And so that's the timeliness, right?

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This report was issued there's a report

that's going to be issued this coming

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month, on it's going to be discussed at

the January 21st meeting of the Ombudsman

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Commission, the Ombuds Commission,

and it's going to contain some similar

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information about a different case.

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And so I'm really Kind of sitting on

pins and needles to read that report.

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Hedge, you talked to a lot of people

for this story, and you started touching

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on this right before our sponsor break.

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I was really interested in your

conversation with Police Chief

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Kevin Hall, who was just recently

hired over the summer to replace the

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former Police Chief Craig Meidel.

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This is like a little city government

jargon for you, but essentially,

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when a mayor changeover happens,

a lot of the positions within the

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city are appointed by the mayor.

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And so, if a mayor doesn't want to,

like a new mayor comes in, She might not

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want to keep some of these leadership

positions that are filled by the mayor.

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Craig Meidel didn't give her the option.

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He resigned.

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So she was left with a vacancy, and

after an extensive community engagement

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process, they ended up with Chief Hall.

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So, And again, like I said, Hedge, you

started to touch on this, but I see

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a lot of presentations from this man.

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And actually just this week, I saw

some numbers that I think ended

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up in your story, which showed a

pretty sharp drop off in use of

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force incidents from SPD post 2019.

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And Hall did something that I think a

lot of police chiefs are unwilling to do.

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He credited state legislation and police

reforms with reducing SPD's use of force.

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Can you tell me more about Hall's stance

on this philosophical debate over de

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escalation and it's meaning and where

this new police chief stands so that

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we might know what folks in Spokane

can expect out of the next three years?

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Yeah, it's a really good question because

there's there's a little bit of, I don't

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want to say like a mythology, but there's

people talk about Chief Hall a lot and

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people have, there's a lot of folks who

have a lot of hope in him because, he's,

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they see him as somebody who really

wants to reduce police violence, and

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yeah, I think that, That expression,

that, that attribution of that drop in

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use of force at SPD to state regulation,

which most police departments aren't

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too stoked about really backs that up.

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Chief Hall told me that he has been, he

spent the first several months of his

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tenure just figuring out the department

and like just understanding the culture.

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But I do perceive him that same way.

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He did say to me, he said He said

that de escalation is never force.

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He called it the antithesis of force.

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And he defined, I asked him

what de escalation means to him.

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And to be clear, he did say that sometimes

force is necessary in situations, but

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it never constitutes de escalation.

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He told me that de escalation means,

quote, slowing things down, providing

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distance if possible, gaining cover, and

then using your critical decision making

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skills to determine a path forward,

if possible, without using force.

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And that's similar to that experience

with the ride along that you did.

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Trying to figure out Everything

that you can do in a situation

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before you try to use force.

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That it's a last resort.

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So there's, There's a lot of

Hope built around Chief Hall.

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I did talk to Jim Leidy, who's a, He

was at the protest on Tuesday and he

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I talked to him about this and asked

him if he had hope and he said there's,

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there's potential for some good things.

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He, he did seize on this most recent

police killing out, I believe as it

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was in the Hilliard neighborhood.

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And I'm not sure if that made it

into my story, but a man was killed

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by police in an apartment building.

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And he, Jim believes that the

police chief has the authority to

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release the names of the officers.

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And he has, Chief Hall has not

done that, and he, Jim takes that

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as, a signal that, maybe it's not

gonna move as fast as people want

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it to toward police accountability.

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But Chief Hall also did tell me

that he is very interested in the

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idea of reforming these use of force

boards that my story focused on.

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Because currently who sits

on these these review boards?

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What are the, what do

they currently look like?

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So the chairperson, according to the

policy, the chairperson of the Of

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the use of force review board is the

department's training director and

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that is a man named Lieutenant Kurt.

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Oh, his last name is

escaping me right now.

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I'll have to like back

up and figure that out.

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Kurt Reese.

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Thank you.

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Lieutenant Kurt Reese.

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I appreciate that.

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And Lieutenant Kurt Reese and I tried

to get in touch with him through the

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PIO, but I, so I haven't spoken to him

because they didn't get back to me.

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But, um, he's charged with choosing

the members of the Use of Force Board.

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The deputy of ombuds Luvy Mae Omana

told me that, there's not really like

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a methodology for picking people who

want to be on the use of force board.

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Often it relies on when they need certain

types of expertise, they'll go find

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somebody who has expertise in a certain

area and bring them onto the board.

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Um, I do have names of some of the members

in including the training director,

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but some of the lower level members,

we don't really know who they are.

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They're not open to the public.

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You would have to have

some special access.

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Ombuds Logue told me that if I wanted

to go sit in those meetings, it's

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a possibility, but I'd have to, I'd

have to Really make some people like

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me to get that to happen, which is

a project I'm seriously considering.

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You're on your make everybody

love hedge campaign.

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I'm a charming guy, but the argument from

folks like Lady is that this is just a

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shadowy board, a shadowy oversight board,

which We know there's officers on it.

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We don't know who they are.

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We don't know what they're saying.

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We don't know how

they're making decisions.

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It just feels very murky and like it's not

out in the open or not transparent enough.

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Is that lady's argument?

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You really have to drag

information out of that board.

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You have to work really

hard, including the officers.

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The O.

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P.

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O.

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commission, like they, they feel like

they don't have a good window into

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what happens on the, on that board.

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And it's entirely made up of police

officers, with the exception of Of

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the ombuds representative Luvy May and

the note taker and the note taker is

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an employee of the police department.

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Luvy May told me that there should

be a diversity of perspectives

402

on these boards because it's a

policy reform oriented board.

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It's not about.

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They don't do work that's trying to punish

officers for doing something wrong, like

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circumventing department policy they're

trying to figure out if the policy is

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bad and if the policy should be reformed.

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And so, the people if there's Her

argument was that if it's entirely

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staffed by police officers who tend to

look at incidents of police violence

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through the lens of, did it follow the

policy, then you're gonna get people

410

who kinda just write off incidents.

411

Whereas if you have somebody with

and she has a JD from Gonzaga, but

412

if you have somebody with kind of a,

an outside perspective on the board,

413

they'll be thinking, More along

the lines of is this policy good?

414

Do we want this stuff to keep happening?

415

Right rather than did this technically

follow the policy and that was the

416

crux of The reforms that Chief Hall was

talking to me about he didn't really

417

address The transparency issues, but

he talked about possibly like Looking

418

at remaking the makeup of these boards

and to be clear Chief Hall doesn't

419

really have a lot of power there.

420

That Is that, would this be the union?

421

Would this be the police guilds?

422

That's right, and the police

union is extremely powerful.

423

The president, David Duncan, told me

that he is open to reforms, but he's

424

not aware of any specific proposals.

425

And I think it's really early in the

process, so, any reforms are probably,

426

I would assume that they're years out.

427

But yeah, that's that's the crux of

Chief Hall's comments on board reform

428

which I think people would support.

429

And a lot of the advocates I

talked to probably also feel

430

that it wouldn't go far enough.

431

So.

432

Okay.

433

So on one hand we have Hall,

who seems to agree with these

434

police accountability advocates.

435

Maybe not going quite as far as they would

like him to, but in general agreement

436

that maybe some changes need to be

made or we need to reevaluate why this

437

violence keeps happening and also that.

438

Force itself is not de escalation.

439

But some of the other key players, and

I think we touched on this with the

440

conversation about the police guild,

but one of the other key players in

441

your story was David Duncan, who, is

he still a police detective or is his

442

sole job president of the police guild?

443

He is currently an active

detective with the department.

444

He does police work.

445

Okay, so where did Duncan stand on this?

446

So, we talked earlier about this

kind of this spectrum with two ends.

447

One end being that force is

never a form of de escalation.

448

And then the other end being, up to lethal

force can be a form of de escalation.

449

And Detective Duncan told me that, I'll

just read his quote he said deescalation

450

can include all kinds of different things.

451

It's just what is our

definition going to be?

452

If somebody's armed with a knife, and

this is the example that you were talking

453

about, if somebody's armed with a knife

and we shoot them with a bean bag round

454

and they drop the knife, have we stopped

them from harming themselves or others?

455

Yeah, is that de escalation?

456

Well, I shot him with a beanbag round.

457

That sounds pretty harmful, but we've

stopped this incident from getting worse.

458

And his, that comment was couched in

kind of this broader narrative about

459

everybody having a different definition

of what constitutes de escalation.

460

Police think it's one thing, and that's

at odds with with the broader public.

461

And I you know, I can see where, how that

logic would build for police officers.

462

Right.

463

I know one of the things we talked about

was like, if there is An active shooter,

464

if somebody is like, if there's a mass

shooting happening, if somebody has a gun

465

and they are shooting, then yes, there is

a use of force there that is necessary.

466

But I think one of the things that

you said to me that stuck with me

467

is that there's a difference between

use of force being necessary and

468

justified, and between use of force

being a de escalation technique.

469

That's right.

470

So, The, I think the, I think

probably and the Ombudsman, Bart

471

Logue, is very much in the camp of de

escalation is the antithesis of force.

472

Same as Hall.

473

And his office was created through

a vote by 70 percent of Spokaneites.

474

So I think that most of the

public probably is on the the

475

antithesis end of the argument.

476

Yeah, before this, Luke was giving

us, Luke couldn't make it, but

477

he still has lots of opinions.

478

And he was talking about how it's really

hard to get 70 percent of anybody to

479

agree to the most basic statements.

480

You could say, people are good, maybe.

481

And 70 percent of Spokane would probably

not agree with that but 70%, which

482

is a super majority, decided that

they wanted police accountability.

483

They wanted this ombud's office.

484

They wanted Bart Loge, somebody looking

over what the police are doing and

485

making decisions about whether or not,

and I mean, I guess what I'm confused

486

about is like how much power and

oversight Loge actually gets because

487

it seems as you've been talking to me

and describing the story, there's just

488

so many like Places where there's red

tape or still a lack of transparency,

489

despite the will of the voters.

490

And I guess I'm curious we've heard

Logue's stance, we know how he feels,

491

but what power does he actually

have to implement this oversight

492

or these changes that might, make

our use of force incidents go down?

493

Well, I don't think he has any

power to actually make any changes.

494

He's a reporter.

495

He gathers information

and He's just like us.

496

He gets it out there in the best

way that he can to the public,

497

which is normally through the O.

498

P.

499

O.

500

Commission which he presents reports to.

501

And he makes he, he doesn't just report.

502

He does make recommendations.

503

And one of the recommendations From

this out of this report was better

504

training for officers to understand

de escalation techniques so that and

505

he's, I think he hopes that, that

training will neutralize the view that

506

de escalation, or that use of force

can constitute a form of de escalation.

507

So doing, like setting a firm

definition for what exactly

508

de escalation is and isn't?

509

Is that what he's hoping to do?

510

And specifically his definition

that force is not de escalation.

511

Right.

512

Okay.

513

Okay.

514

So that would make it so that regardless

of what these folks in this review

515

board think, whether it's up to lethal

force, like all of that would just go

516

away if his definition is accepted.

517

Right.

518

But that recommendation, which

was approved by the commission

519

unanimously, along with all of

his other recommendations and

520

there were multiple cases in this

report, this isn't the sole case He

521

Sorry, I know you got thrown

because your phone started ringing.

522

Is that one of your

sources about this story?

523

Probably, I don't know, it's fine.

524

So, so what happens after the commission

approves the changes is that, that

525

approval is then sent to the police

chief and the police chief, Chief

526

Hall, gets to decide whether the

department adopts that recommendation.

527

And there's not a formal process for that.

528

Like they don't have to enshrine

it in a policy document.

529

They don't have to, they

just have to implement it in.

530

And they don't even have to implement it.

531

They just have to decide whether or

not they are going to implement it.

532

That's right.

533

And then there's the last step in

that is the ombuds can go and like

534

audit the department and try to

determine whether that recommendation

535

has actually been adopted.

536

So is there a push right now?

537

Like it seems to me in my limited

time covering this that you've got a

538

pretty progressive mayor, you've got

a pretty progressive police chief,

539

And, honestly I haven't heard many

complaints about Dave Duncan, too,

540

as the head of the police union.

541

And, so, it seems to me if these

decisions go through the police chief

542

is there hope or a push for these police

accountability advocates to capitalize

543

on this alignment of stars, or?

544

Well, and There's a lot happening at

the state level, there's, it's a really

545

dynamic situation right now, which is

I think one of the reasons I felt this

546

story was important to report right now,

and we can talk about those state, that

547

state level stuff later in the show,

but Yeah, there, there's, there is hope

548

and Bart feels that the that the Ombuds

office, during his nine years in the

549

position has made a lot of progress toward

being able to tell the public things.

550

He's still really restricted.

551

He, he cannot mention any officer's name.

552

Any police guild member's

name in any report.

553

He can't do that in writing.

554

He has a little bit more

leeway when he's just talking.

555

So, in, in meetings he could possibly

Identify a police guild member, but

556

he's very careful about that because

the guild contract, if there's

557

any ambiguous language, and there

is ambiguous language it can be

558

interpreted one way or the other, and

if the police guild has a problem with

559

something that he's doing that they

feel has violated the guild contract

560

his section in the guild contract.

561

Then they can take it before an

independent arbitrator, basically a court,

562

and the court would decide yes or no,

this is what this language means, they

563

interpret it and then they can decide

whether BART has violated the contract.

564

And if they do that, they can then

take the next step to conclude that,

565

Bart is not operating in good faith

under the contract and they can just

566

get rid of him who would make up this

court I'm not entirely clear on that.

567

He called it.

568

He called it arbitration And there

was a qualifier for the arbitration.

569

Sorry.

570

I'm not like Sorry, I didn't

mean to push you into the weeds.

571

And this is also a thing I should know

is when is this contract, this Police

572

Guild contract, up for renegotiation?

573

As a City Hall reporter, I really should

have that date just burned into my brain.

574

I don't.

575

Do you know it?

576

This, the current contract covers

577

up in the next couple of years.

578

Okay.

579

And Alright, switching tack a little

bit, but not that much one of the

580

sources you talked to, Lady, recently

testified at a Spokane City Council

581

meeting, which is where I spend all of my

Monday nights, and he brought up a point

582

that I actually found kind of bonkers.

583

One of the arguments in support

of police, justifying their recent

584

shootings, weaponized contracts to

give Families settlements have to be

585

approved by city council, which means

that they have to take public commentary.

586

So I have to listen to a lot of

people talking about whether it

587

is or is not okay for somebody

to have gotten shot by police.

588

And one of the arguments I keep hearing is

that, well, It was a justified shooting,

589

so why are we paying out their family?

590

And whether a shooting is

considered justified or not is

591

decided by the county prosecutor.

592

In these recent wave of settlements,

the county prosecutor had found that the

593

shootings were justified, but Lady brought

up something that I didn't know, which

594

was that spoken county prosecutor Larry

Haskell, who has his own slew of drama

595

and scandals, has actually never found

a single police shooting unjustified?

596

Um, which is crazy to me.

597

And he rules on the SPD and the sheriffs.

598

Is that right?

599

The Spokane County sheriffs?

600

That's right.

601

And so, from those two departments, he has

never found a single shooting unjustified.

602

This is, this gets the heart

of some of the stuff that's

603

happening at the state level.

604

Debbie Novak does not feel the

settlement, the four million dollar

605

settlement that Spokane paid out to

606

Was justice for David.

607

She's, I think she's she's still working.

608

But she, uh, she's like, Writing

on that money a little bit,

609

I think, to do her advocacy.

610

Right, I, sorry, I want to add in one note

here from your story that I think is so

611

important for people who are listening.

612

Debbie Novak used to work

as a police dispatcher.

613

She used to patrol with SPD.

614

And her son was shot and

killed by the police.

615

And now she's become a

police reform advocate.

616

So I think a lot of times people have

a picture in their head of what a

617

police reform advocate looks like.

618

Whether that's good or bad.

619

Novak's life was changed by this,

and this is how she ends up here.

620

That's right, and I think that's one

of the really compelling turns in that

621

story that isn't, hasn't been explored.

622

And I've spoken at length with Debbie

about her her experience as a dispatcher.

623

And she, and it was a long time ago, it

was in the 90s, but but yeah, this was

624

not her first contact with Spokane police.

625

And she's she was troubled by a lot

of what she saw on those patrols, and

626

hopefully I can get, dive into the

details of that in a future story.

627

But she, so she is advocating her bit, her

kind of That the policy that she's hoping

628

will be implemented at the state level

would be legislation that would create

629

an office of an independent prosecutor.

630

So in 2020, here's a little

to set the table a little bit.

631

In 2021, the state created an office

of independent investigations and it's.

632

still in a like very like small

fledgling state, but it's it started

633

doing some of its investigations

into deadly force cases.

634

It's it actually announced its

first investigation and it's

635

possibly going to look into

David Novak's case in the future.

636

But this office can take uses

some cases where police killed

637

somebody and investigate it.

638

And what they do is they take the

results of that investigation and

639

that establishing that record is

a very good public service, but as

640

that office is currently structured,

they would send their recommendations

641

about whether the officer should be

prosecuted back to the local prosecutor.

642

So we would end if David Novak's

case, which Larry pointed out, Larry

643

Haskell said was justified, was

investigated by the OII, it would

644

go back to Larry Haskell again.

645

Who is again, never found

a single case unjustified.

646

So, this Office of an Independent

Prosecutor, and there is draft legislation

647

for this, and I don't, I'm not totally

sure if it's gonna be up for a vote this

648

coming session, but the coming legislative

session in Olympia, but If that's, if

649

that is created, then the OII would send

its reports to the Office of Independent

650

Prosecutions, which would be a state level

office, completely independent of So like

651

a state prosecutor would then rule on this

case instead of a local prosecutor, where

652

there may or may not be corruption issues.

653

Well, local prosecutors community

with their local police, and that's

654

perceived as a really cozy relationship.

655

And I think that there's a perception that

a lot of the, Larry Haskell's I guess his

656

allegiances are with the local police and

the Office of Independent Prosecutors,

657

a state level office, would not have at

least that perceived conflict of interest.

658

Right.

659

Okay.

660

So we're coming up close

to the end of our hour.

661

I was curious if there, was there

anything else I didn't ask you

662

about the reporting process that was

particularly interesting or challenging?

663

You mentioned this was your first time

reporting on police and I guess I was

664

curious if there was any insights.

665

I think that it's, it's really, it was

really striking to me, most people,

666

most of the advocates that I spoke with,

and just like normal people who had

667

lost loved ones to local police, they,

they understand that police violence

668

is troubling and bad in the worst way,

worse than anybody who hasn't been

669

through that situation understands it.

670

A lot of them weren't aware.

671

That there was a use

of force review board.

672

A lot of them don't have a really good

handle on just, because they're normal

673

working people who are busy and they

have lives and they have families that

674

and they don't have time to dive into

the details of all this stuff like

675

reporters do or people who've maybe

have gotten a settlement might do.

676

And so I think that the situation

that I got to know a little bit is

677

much more complicated than most people

understand and it deals with, and

678

that's why Debbie advocates for state

level reform is because she thinks

679

that, we need set systemic solutions

to these problems that crop up in

680

individual communities, but are.

681

Recognizable across Patterns.

682

Yeah, exactly.

683

Yeah.

684

Does that make sense?

685

It does.

686

I think, one of the things I was really

proud of you for with this story was

687

how much you centered the folks who

are really impacted by this and how

688

much you got at the emotional core of

what's going on with the people who've

689

been impacted by what can and sometimes

turns into a philosophical tug of

690

war, but at its heart it's something

that impacts real people and I wanted

691

to end this segment by reading the

quote you ended your story with from

692

Debbie Novak, she said, It's police.

693

Everything's about the police.

694

When is it our turn?

695

When is it going to be about the people?

696

When are they going to hear our

voices and not just the police?

697

And I think that's what sticks

with me from your story.

698

I think that's what the story is.

699

Yeah.

700

Alright folks, this has been

an episode of Free Range.

701

That is our time for the week.

702

Luke's not here to read his half of the

pre recorded whatever, so, or pre written

703

whatever, so I'm gonna do it myself.

704

Do you have questions

about local government?

705

Are you wondering who to complain to

about an issue in your neighborhood?

706

Wondering which agency

governs certain things?

707

Wondering why something is happening,

or how much it costs you, the taxpayer?

708

Email us at freerange at kyrs.

709

org with your questions, and we'll

try and answer them next week.