This week on Peripheral Thinking, I speak to George Thompson, film maker, teacher and wise Daoist explorer.

Daoism was born in a time of war: in China’s Warring States period. What role for this ancient philosophy today? Is it a fast track to passively doing nothing or super power lending you strength, resilience and wise perspective?

I know where my toast is buttered. Why not have a listen and let me know yours.

Links

• Journey to the East – George’s film
• The Patterning Instinct: A Cultural History of Humanity's Search for Meaning, by Jeremy Lent
• The Tao of Pooh, by Benjamin Hoff
• George’s YouTube channel
• The Wwayfinders community
• Join George’s Daoism course

Welcome to peripheral thinking a series of conversations with

entrepreneurs, advisors, activists, and academics, intending to inspire

you and maybe challenge you with ideas from the margins, the periphery.

Why?

Because that's where the ideas which will shape tomorrow are hiding

today on those margins, the per.

Uh, this week I spoke to George Thompson.

George is a filmmaker and Explorer of the Dow or the TA,

depending on the pronunciation.

Um, after a personal crisis of his own, he set off to become kinder to himself

through a series of unexpected events.

He found himself at a small Tai Chi school in the mountains of China there, he found

tower and through practicing its healing arts, his mental health transformed.

George creates short films on his YouTube channel, which is well, well worth

checking out and hosts a really great, um, online community called wayfinders.global.

Um, check out both of those things.

Uh, really excited to have George join us today to talk about

daoism I'd first encountered Dow.

Or about 30 years ago, reading a great book, the do of poo, uh, and was pointed

back to it via my conversation with Jeremy LMP, which is also worth checking out.

Jeremy pointed me towards George and George.

I'm sort of hugely excited is here with us today.

George, thank you for joining me on Peripheral Thinking.

Thank you, Ben.

Pleasure to be here.

So, uh, we were just having a little bit of a chat before recording and we,

uh, I found you, uh, via Jeremy Lynch.

Jeremy has also been on the podcast and Jeremy has spoken a fair bit

about daoism in, in his books.

And so essentially what really keen to talk to you about today is daoism.

Uh, Jeremy suggested you would be the person to speak to, to, uh, to

kind of shed some light and insight on this kind of age, old topic.

Well they are kind words and yeah, Jeremy Len is a great inspiration

for me, part of this movement of people synthesizing wisdom from the

east to this ancient wisdom emerging from nature, and then also, yeah.

Science of the west and, and everything that we've achieved

in, in Western civilization.

So yeah, I hope I can offer my 2 cents on daoism.

I'm I'm a young person still working out life and working out daoism,

but it's transformed how I talk to myself and how I understand the world.

So, yeah, it's, uh, been a very nourishing journey.

Fantastic.

Well, I look forward to getting into all of that, but I wouldn't say

that the first place I, I wanted to start when I asked Jeremy, he said,

oh, you should check out George.

And he pointed me to your YouTube channel and we'll include all of

that, those links and whatnot later.

Uh, and, uh, and a documentary that you'd made, which I think is called

journey to the east is that right?

Correct.

And so you traveled to China.

This is both a kind of literal and metaphorical journey to the east.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So I I'll actually start my journey back for the first time that went

to China, cuz I've been twice now been blessed to I've gone twice.

The first time I'd finished education, formal education.

Got confused and anxious about what I was supposed to be doing in the big, bad,

real world and descended into anxiety and confusion where I'd be bedridden and

just didn't know how to talk to myself.

A new character began to emerge in my consciousness, which I called the

underminer and little evil wizard.

That was the voice that brought me down and gave me pain.

So yeah, stuck in my head, unable to really handle myself, and I thought

perhaps some Kung Fu would be good for me.

I'd watch some months doing back flips and chopping karate

blocks and doing stuff like that.

And I thought maybe that would make me stronger.

And maybe that would be good for me.

So yeah, with a very kind of vague and naive intention to go learn, maybe

some meditation and some martial arts, I went off to China and yeah, through

a series of unexpected events, tried to get into some monasteries failed,

tried to get taken to a Kung Fu school, and I was taken to a Tai Chi.

I thought Tai Chi was generally slow, serious and boring, but I

tried it and fell in love with it.

And the place that I studied is called the Wudang mountains, which is this

incredible collection of temples and monasteries and Kung Fu schools and

Tai Chi schools and the philosophy and religion of the Wudang mountains

is daoism, this beautiful philosophy from two and a half thousand years ago.

And I was reading the Tao Te Ching, which is the sort of Bible of daoism

and, and this ancient book, only a few each chapter's only a few lines long.

I'd read it, and just my head space would be transformed.

I'm like, wow.

The things that I struggle with, the ancient Chinese also thought about,

and here's a very simple way of understanding myself that's much more

inspiring and much more grounded.

So that was coming up to five years ago now.

And so I've been on a journey ever since, uh, of getting deeper into

daoism, sharing what I learn on YouTube with my YouTube channel.

And then I went back to China after living in modernity, a normal life in Britain,

I went back and that was the Journey to the East film, which was, yeah, the medium

through which I'm trying to communicate these downest ideas is through film.

And so that was my first kind of semi feature length.

That was a 50 minute documentary explaining Daoism, told through my

story of returning and to see if Daoism could offer as anything to

help us understand what's happening in the world and the way forward.

So I guess maybe the meaty thing to get our heads around to help.

What, what is daoism?

Is it, how, how do we, what is it?

Yeah.

And, and this word, the Dow it's also pronounced Taoism or Tao.

And so that can be quite confusing cuz you're thinking daoism, Taoism

is that two different things.

Well, first of all, there's different spellings for the same thing, which is

daoism the philosophy and religion in the Wudang, in China, so there's actually two

different words in Chinese to refer to.

One the philosophy and two, the religion.

So Dow di is the philosophy and Dowdy is the religion.

So.

Daoist philosophy is what I've been exploring.

And daoist, daoism emerged from a time in China called the waring

states period, which was an incredibly tumultuous time where waring Kings

for bloody battles to become emperor.

And this chaos demanded new ideas to return, to help return

the land, to order and to peace.

And so daoism and the Tao Te Ching, this foundational text of

daoism emerged from this time.

But we can't really say that it emerged from one person.

Although the supposed author of this book is called LA because actually

it's the accumulated spiritual wisdom of generations of thinkers in China.

We have, for example, ying yang, clay pots, the spiral, that date back.

Something like 2000, 3000, 4,000, uh, BC.

So it's almost that the, this wisdom predates civilization.

So it emerged from the hunter gatherer tribes and from the sages and the

charms that were the spiritual leaders of those communities.

And this wisdom was passed down the generations orally and then

condensed and coalesced into what we have today, the Tao Te Ching.

And so Dao is a philosophy.

It can be a religion, but really, I like to think about it as a way of life.

It is the Tao Te Ching is a series of, of observations of nature.

And they're given to you as offerings.

Like here's some observations about how the world works.

We're not trying to convince you to join our team and to plant your flag

on the dowers and, uh, yeah, mound.

Instead here's some observations and do what you will with them.

And so really the responsibility is given to us to understand and rediscover these

principles that have been true through time, because there are observations of

nature rather than cultural constructs or things that come and go with the trends.

And so that is why this little book from two and a half thousand

years ago could help me a British man living in the 21st century.

Thousands of years and tens of thousands of kilometers away from

where these ideas originated.

And so, yeah, that is the, the timeless power of doist wisdom.

And so it sounds like, so it, it spins around, uh, sort of pardon the.

It's kinda spins around some, some core principles.

Is that right?

Yes.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So the word, the Dao of Daoism refers to the world, everything within it, but also

the principles that underlie everything that happens in the universe, the laws of

nature, the mysterious intelligence that.

Makes our consciousness, the miracle that we are here and aware

and with an embodied experience.

So the Dao refers to everything in the universe, but also this

mysterious patterning intelligence.

And so nature works through patterns through oscillations, through movement.

You have the sun, you have yeah, the seasons everything's in oscillation.

And so nature's moving and if we understand these movements, And work

with them, then we can work in keeping with the Dao, in keeping with nature,

rather than fighting the world or not understanding it and therefore

finding it difficult to live life.

And so the promise of understanding the Dao is when we understand these

principles of the movements of nature, that we can understand ourselves so

that we become friends with ourselves.

We understand other people so that our relationships have less conflict,

and we understand nature, and we realize that we are one meaningful

inseparable part of this unfolding miracle of intelligence in the universe.

So, um, when you were talking at the beginning about, you know, sort of

the, the kind of bedridden confusion of kind of, you know, how do I live?

How do I function and the sort of depression, I guess that goes, what,

what is it in reading and understanding that bigger movement of things helped

you out of the bed, speaking, literally.

Yeah.

Literally yes.

So for me, this little voice appeared in my head and like

became a much stronger character.

Of course.

Like we all, most people have an inner critic and you know, I still get anxious.

I still get confused.

I still get down, but I have more space within me.

And so the, the kind of simple path to spiritual realization

for the Daoists is meditation.

Creating the space within so that you can see these thoughts

arise in our consciousness.

We can't control what thoughts come into our heads, but we can

control what we do with them.

And so really liberating concepts that comes from the Dao is the

mystery and the complexity of the Dao.

And so I used to confine myself.

A couple of sentences.

Hi, I'm George.

I'm mentally weak, which is why I get anxious, and I'm sad and

I'm trying to improve myself.

I need to do better.

So the full wiggly incredible miracle that this embodied human experiences

that has the name of George.

All of that complexity I managed to contain in just a couple of sentences.

And that couple of sentences gave me pain.

Chapter one of the Tao Te Ching is super inspiring.

So the very opening lines of, of Daoism in the Tao Te Ching is the Doo that

can be named is not the eternal Dao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The Dao is both named and nameless.

Named it is the mother of myriad things.

Nameless.

It is the origin of all with desires.

We can see the manifestations of the world, but only desireless

can we see the mystery.

And to see the mystery is the doorway to all understanding.

So yeah, the Dao that can be named is not the eternal Dao.

The George that can be defined is not the eternal George, anyone that claims, okay,

this is how the world works, we got our little red book and if we just do this,

then we'll live in utopia, you know that they have to be wrong because the Dao, the

world, the universe is far too magnificent and complex to be captured in words.

And that's true of all of us, that these little stories that we tell

of ourselves cannot capture the full wonder and mystery of who we are.

So thoughts can be real in the sense that they are experienced in, and they have

feelings associated with them, but they cannot be true, because they're always

rising in our consciousness based on limited information, our limited sensors.

And so meditation gives us the freedom to see these thoughts come up and it's

okay to have the underminer, it's okay to have these critical thoughts, but

not to necessarily allow them to latch onto the story of who we feel we are.

We can allow them to come up and go, and we find freedom through that.

cuz when I hear the opening lines there, it was really kind

of helpful that you put the, the kind of the, the George on it too.

Because I think when I hear those, I hear the paradox and the

paradox feels sort of enchanting and alluring, but also confusing.

And it's like, I dunno whether to get in, I dunno whether to sort of

ignore this, you know, is part of the attraction somehow the paradox, the

mysticism, the unknowingness of the words?

Yeah.

Dan, Dan Millman's got a great thing on this.

He says, life is paradox, change and humor.

So, yeah.

If you can hold onto those three constants, then you

you're gonna be living.

Okay.

Because yeah, the Western mind, and I guess the human mind craves

certainty, cuz uncertainty implies that perhaps our survival is at risk.

We want to control the world.

We want control everything that we feel safe.

However, we're in a big wiggly, infinite mystery.

And so it cannot be controlled and it cannot be contained.

And yes, it's like.

Technological innovation.

So we are solving problems, we're making the world better, but like Whack-a-Mole,

you whack one problem down and then the other one pops up and we're finding it's

increasing in energy as we are becoming more powerful through our technology.

And so, yeah, paradox and mystery is a fundamental part of existence.

And so, you know, the daoists thought it was that important that they

started their foundational text, their Bible with we don't know.

Their opening lines.

The Dao that can be talked about is not the eternal Dao.

That's in a book called the Tao Te Ching, which is the classic

book of the Dao and its power.

So that humility is super inspiring.

And I think that's what attracts a lot of people.

But it's also, yeah, it's sometimes one does crave the clarity and something

that the Daoists want to temper is against is having the this, this

certain knowledge like we, yeah, as I said earlier, we crave, like if

someone just give me a five point plan to live an easy life, I'll take it.

But when we, when we follow those plans, we externalize our power.

And so actually it, it can never be the, the full answer.

And so part of Daoist practice is sitting in the mystery.

And those chapters, they can actually just be read as a mantra.

They don't have to be necessarily understood with the intellect.

But what, what you can find with practice, the more you read them, the more it

becomes embedded, internalized, and then these chapters begin to pop up in

your awareness when you might need them.

And so actually that paradoxical, less concrete way of communicating

information can actually be more powerful because it, it, it speaks

to a deeper part of our consci.

You mentioned that you mentioned humility, so, uh, what would

be the other, um, sort of core underpinning values, which, uh, yeah.

Which, which underpin Daoism?

Yeah, so humility and mystery being one, I'd say the second

one, which is kind of, yeah.

Classically associated with the, uh, with the, the dos is the yin yang.

And so this is a, such a simple diagram, predates daoism, but

the daoists really talk about it.

Is this is a graphical representation for change and for, for movement.

So you have everyone, hopefully can picture the yin yang.

You have the yin part and the yang part, they're kind of two fishes

into, into weaving, dancing together.

And there's those little, little dots.

So the dots represent that there's always a bit of yin in yang and

a little bit of yang in yin.

So, often we can fall into binary thinking, black and white either I am

messed up or either I am Jesus and you know, everyone should celebrate me.

You know, we, we fall into these easy categories where we want to

yeah, contain the world into binary categories, but yeah, life is

paradoxical, life is mysterious.

And we find that even when we're really sure about, so.

the next day we find it's completely switched.

So for example, you have a conflict in the workplace with a friend, uh, yeah, with a

colleague and you think they're out to get you they're undermining you in meetings.

And so that is perhaps the yang judgment that, that pops into our

heads is that Janice is out to get me.

She's trying to undermine me on purpose.

But if we know that there's always I and yang going on in any situation, we know

that Janice is much more complex than just that judgment that arises in our heads.

So a really actionable question to ask from the yin yang

is where's the hidden yin?

Where is this other factor that I haven't accounted for?

And when we ask that question with Janice, we may realize that she

doesn't actually understand what we do.

And so she thinks that my job is in conflict with hers, but actually it's not.

So the yin strategy would be to go meet her for a coffee, explain what you.

and then you have a new working relationship, no conflict required.

So change is a natural part of, of life and there's complexity.

And so the yin yang is a really helpful symbol to help us

hold onto both of these ideas.

Is that when we find ourselves being judgemental, we can bring the yin

yang to mind, remind ourselves that there's always more to the story.

And if we are clinging on to stasis.

I just want everything to stay the same, although that we may crave that, that

actually changes the only constant.

And so the yin yang can help us flow with that rather than trying to clinging onto

something that exists only in our heads.

Yeah.

It's I, you forget, it's obviously the, the Y the yin yang symbol

is, you know, like these things.

And obviously we live at a time where symbols are massively appropriated

all over, but I mean, that is such a.

Iconic sign.

Isn't it?

So say, so that's not, uh, not, uh, originally a daoist symbol, but is a

symbol the daoists sort of, um, took on.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So, and the same spiral is, is the designer is nature, not, not a person.

So the actual original yin yangs were it's gonna a swirling log.

I can never say that word log logra mythic, whatever that word is.

Um, yeah, a spiral where the, this, like you see it in hurricanes

and galaxies spiral seashells.

Why nature light spirals is a mystery.

We don't know like how is it that something as huge as a galaxy with

hundreds of billions of stars, not made of matter, but instead gravity bringing

matter into a self organizing pattern that exists over a distance of billions

of light years, how is, How is, that same pattern then also found in shells and

hurricanes and the crowns of our heads?

So that spiral.

The Daoists, they studied nature, and so they saw that spirals is one of

the fundamental patterns of nature.

And so the kelts had something similar to the yin yang, the Mayans did as well.

But certainly this, the yin yang that most of us think about is later.

So it's around 1,400 ad.

I'd need to fact check myself on that, but that kind of going from the full

spiral that you'd see in a hurricane to the two fishes of yin yang with

the dots came later, but the same fundamental concept still applies.

So when people talk about yin yang, Is is the point that

it's just about the contrast?

The, the thing that comes to my mind is, you know, that phrase,

well, when you zig, I zag?

Is the, is the point that it's just about contrast, or there are

some characteristics are yin and some characteristics are yang?

So when you were talking about, oh, you know, there's too much judgment

need to look for the, the yin unit.

And so is it that there are some characteristics and qualities which

are more one and more the other, or is it just about the difference?

Mm.

Yeah.

So traditional Chinese medicine spent thousands of years categorizing

everything into yin and yang.

And so that's not necessarily strictly the pure daoist philosophy, but yang

is the white and yin is the black.

So if you think about fang, think about your white Fang and then, you

know, that yang is the white part.

So yang is, is so some pairings we've got the sun in the moon.

So sun being yang, moon being yin.

You've got yeah, light and darkness, yang and yin.

You've got life and death, yang and yin.

And so a general principles that yang is the more active,

uh, component of, of a duality.

And then yin is the more passive.

So for example, with those judgements, the yang is the ha here's a thought in,

in my head, Janice is out to get me.

So, because that's the obvious thing that would be categorized as yang.

The yin is that hidden darkness.

Because we have limited cognition, we focus on a limited amount of

information to, to make any decision, which is totally necessary in order to

function in an infinitely complex world.

But we can often only focus on what's happening in the foreground

and not look to the background.

We get caught in the yang and we forget that there's always

some, some yin going on.

A good example is the earth itself or, or, people's pride.

So, you know, you have the Donald Trumps of the world who

are very proud of their success.

I'm a great businessman.

Can't do a Trump, uh, impression.

And, but, so what, but what's the background that makes Trump's

success, quotation marks, possible?

So he at any moment in time is physically held up by the earth.

So that's the, the stage upon which, and from which all life comes to be.

And so.

Without the actual earth holding us up, nor the trees to give us air to

breathe, nor for the fungi to create nutrients for the trees and the

connections go on into infinity because everything's in relationship and nature

that you cannot have that foreground, that yang without the yin, without

the background, without the hidden.

And so that's coming back to humility, another, another powerful

learning from the yin yang is that, how can we be proud of our success?

How can we even be claiming anything about our bodies?

They are gifts given to us by the mysterious intelligence of the universe.

We didn't ask for them.

And yet here we are.

And for Trump to be, you know, to make any of his money, he depended on

tens of thousands of peoples to, to work in his systems, as well as all

the natural systems to provide air for his customers and, and trees for

his bank notes to be printed upon.

Uh, one, one thing I'm I'm really curious about.

So, um, We talk about, uh, talk about the mystery.

Obviously you talk about, um, Daoists sort of looking at understanding,

learning from systems and rhythms and processes of nature to help us

understand our, our place, which I guess partly is about understanding our

lesser place, rather than the kind of ego inflated place that is obviously

easy to kind of easy to occupy.

Um, in, in the studying of that, in the studying of, of nature and the

studying of the systems, you know, what role, what place does daoism have

in amongst the crises of our time?

So there's wars going on that we know, of course there's environmental sort

of collapse or whatever word you choose to, you know, to, to describe it.

Ecological collapse.

Huge political social upheaval.

With all of this swirling around and happening around what,

what role for daoism in, in this, in this time and spice?

Yeah, it's such an important question.

And before we were, before we started the session we were discussing

and talking about how there's this democratized bottom up movement.

so so many different approaches are gonna be needed because they use language that

resonate with different groups of people.

And so you have your network, Ben, and you, you know, have impact and you're

raising the consciousness of the people that you work with, and you may not

necessarily use daoism and so coming back to the yin yang, which is such

an important concept, which helps us hold complexity, which stops us falling

into binary categories, cuz it could be that, you know, and I can be a bit

evangelical about daoism cuz I'm so passionate about it, but I could be

teen daoism and saying like, right.

So let, if we just all become dowers then they'll, you know, the,

our world crises will be stopped.

But there needs to be a diversity of, of, of approaches.

What I would say that daoism can provide and why I am so passionate about it

is because it gives a, a, a grounded, scientifically compatible understanding

of who we really are deep down.

And these are really simple principles that we, we come from a

mysterious intelligence and there is no superior people and even

humanity isn't a superior species.

The same sort of genetics and intelligence flows through all the plants and animals.

So that's principle one.

So that's what the Daoists is called the Dao.

Principle two is that everything's interconnected.

So we have a perspective now that the daoists didn't, we are in the

last 70 years, the first generation to see that we are living on a

sphere, a planet in endless space, and yeah, we are sharing this planet.

And so we we're on spaceship earth and so very much interconnected.

And so what the daoists saw through their own experience, the interconnection of

nature in the forest Is is very much true.

And so two simple principles there, but actually when we really feel

these principles is that we can deeply connect with a sense of spirituality

that is compatible with science.

Because.

I truly believe that so many of our crises come from disconnection and you know, I'm

not the only person who's believing that.

For example, like we could own our economic systems are based on

the assumption that nature is a resource to extract and exploit.

And we could only think that if we believe that we are somehow separate

from nature or superior to it, rather than the reality that we are

nature and we are connected to it.

And so that exploitation of nature is destroying ourselves as we're

finding with our increasing crises.

And we could only continue these systems that are destroying ourselves

if we are spiritually disconnected, believing that we are somehow,

yeah, just in some area fairy land where what we do to nature doesn't

actually affect, uh, how we survive.

And the same thing is true with war and conflict is that governments and,

and people in power and tyrannical authoritarian leaders can say those people

over there, they are the backwards people.

They are stealing your jobs, or they are at putting your family at risk.

And so they create this separation between the bad people over

there and as the goodies.

But again, if you take that holistic daoist, but universal

perspective that we come out the same intelligence, we're not that different.

Even if we speak, think, and look differently, then that gives

us a ground for, for connection and for working together.

And so there will be lots of different approaches needed, but at its core,

I think that we, yeah, we've been on this journey for the last 500

years of kind of being in the west.

I'm talking about of, and Jeremy Lent beautifully talks about this in the

Patterning Instinct of breaking out of Christian dogma, which held a lot of

opinions that are pretty challenging.

And so we went to full atheistic science, but actually we lost the awe and wonder,

and the gratitude and the meaning of this shared unfolding miracle that life is.

And so I believe part of our journey of healing is that spiritual reconnection.

Is that, can we find connection?

then having the dogma of, of religion.

And I, I, I truly do believe that is possible.

Yeah, that's really beautiful.

I think, yeah, just sort of talking to that point there of connecting

to the wonder, the wonder of kind of the flourishing life all around us.

One of the, one of the criticisms that I read of, of daoism and I think it's likely

it's, it's rooted in a misunderstanding and I'd be really keen to get you,

is that somehow daoism is passive.

Uh, and so the, the, this thing, like in the time of war, in the time of

collapse, that somehow I'm not acting.

Daoists are not acting.

That there is a passivity to it.

Yeah.

One of the big concepts in Daoism is woo way, and people

may have heard about it and.

The Tao of Pooh, a book that I know you've read Ben and, and

many people come to Daoism through that book, which is amazing.

The author says the Pooh way, Winnie the Pooh is embodies lots of daoist

properties and characteristics, the kind of effortlessness and

the carefree, joyful living.

And so woo way, Pooh way, woo way translates in Chinese as

non-action, literally woo is non and then way is action.

And so, woo way is a big concept in daoism, referring to really the aspiration

of your practice as a daoist cultivators that maybe one day, if you practice

enough, then you can become woo way, and become effortless and do non action.

So some people may criticize that and think, well, so what the aspiration

is just to do nothing then, and just sit around and just, you.

Eat honey all day.

And, uh, yeah, just laugh and sing and dance, smoke flags

and yeah, there's stuff to do.

There's, you know, people starving and there's, you know,

jobs that need to be done.

So is daoism a purely passive philosophy?

Well, you've just gotta look to the masters on the Wudang mountains, where

I studied, where you have Kung Fu masters and Tai Chi masters who dedicate

lifetimes, uh, into proper hard practice.

So they have their routines and they cultivate and they meditate.

And so they seemingly do stuff, they have action and, and they get things done.

And, and so then it seems that daoism isn't in conflict with action.

So how do we, how do we reconcile these two concepts of actually,

the daoists being able to achieve lots of things and work hard, but

then also this concept of woo way?

And so, woo way for me is offering is another way of being is that it's

not in conflict with doing and doing stuff when it needs to be done.

But sometimes we forget that not doing is also available to us.

So for example, in the west, sleep is simply a waste of time.

Often, you know, you have people in corporate London who are working a

hundred hour weeks and the sleep is, yeah, just something that they get through.

And so they sleep four or five hours a night.

But then we find with neuroscience and one's own felt experience is

that one, you get dementia and two, your energy depletes, you gain weight

and you know, all the kind of the problems associated with not sleeping.

So suddenly that non-action that not doing, isn't nothing it's not, not

valuable, but it's something in itself.

Another example is that, uh, when we are having a big kind of life, life

situation, like a job interview or a date, and we may put loads of pressure

on us, on ourselves to be successful.

and then we get in our own ways because we stress ourselves out.

In a date, you start trying to memorize all the right words, to

be a funny, impressive person.

And then you get your tongue tied and, and you, you, you lose it.

And so then you just sit twiddling your thumbs, cuz you've forgotten all the,

the nice one liners that you're prepared.

Another option is available to you, which is to just have the conversation

like you normally would with anyone else, which is just to stay present.

Like, you and I, we are just listening to each other and thoughts may pop

into our heads when you say something and then, and then we just say it.

So it doesn't need to be pressured to, to be anyone else,

except from who you are now.

You can not do anything and allow that subconscious intelligence to serve

you and to allow you to be effecti.

So there's some personal examples, so let's bring it to the collective now.

And so I think there is some, some warranted criticism of daoism

which is that it can be passive on a, on, on the collective level.

We've talked about the mystery and is kind of like politics is compromised

and systems are really complicated and sometimes you just gotta make a

decision, even if it's not the best.

And we live in these incredibly complex civilizations.

Traditionally daoism in China was seen as this sort of spiritual recharge

philosophy for the leaders that would then use Confucian values in

order to know what to do in society.

So, however, I see daoism as this sort of macro understanding within

which you can have civilization.

So if the basis of, of your understanding o of what life is about and what

society is about and what government is.

Is that?

Yeah, we're all part of this unfolding miracle government should be there

to protect life, not just human life, but to, to help life flourish.

Uh, and that is a democratic process.

In the same way that we see nature.

There isn't a tyrant in the sky allocating how many birds are gonna

be put in Madagascar and then how tall the trees are gonna grow in Kansas.

No, everything just happens by itself.

The, the Dao works from the bottom up.

So in the same way that, Can we all be part of, and the reason that

we are here as individuals is to help life flourish, to help our

communities, to help our families.

And so that being a bottom up process, but also voting to create the systems

that then also support our flourishing.

So, so there are some ideas that, that where daoism can really help

us make decisions collectively.

And one final point.

War.

So the Buddhist, and I know that you've been exploring Buddhism are often

pacifists, which I, I think nonviolence is something that we have to get to as

a species, because we're too powerful.

Now our weapons are too powerful.

However, the daoists aren't pacifists because they lived in this

really tumultuous time, the waring states period, where you have more

rewarding bands coming every so often to try and destroy your city.

And so if you didn't defend yourself, then you would just be killed.

And however LA talks about in the Dowing is that a good warrior, a good

fighter should never be proud of their weapons should never be proud of death.

And so it is this reluctant defense.

And so, so easy in, in a warmongery society that we see, you know, coming

out of many countries in the planet is that wars, the kind of the first

option, the saber rattling, but for the Dous it's the last resort.

And so when we see, as we are finding now, that those in power are allowing our

world to be destroyed and are creating a world that cannot support humanity and

is destroying all the non-human species.

And so it's gonna take a lot of energy to, to defend life and to, yeah.

Maybe war metaphors aren't constructive, but still feeling a strong sense of,

of energy to protect and celebrate nature, and, and this not being

in conflict with DARS principles

The thing that's coming up and I appreciate, like you're saying, maybe

the kind of war language isn't helpful, but it feels like we live in a time

in need of fight, you know, and I know from, uh, watching some of your

things, you know, that we, it takes something like Extinction Rebellion.

So there is extinction rebellion happening, you know, events

happening in, in London this week.

So there, there isn't an incompatibility in your mind between this kind of

daoist sort of investment and interest in all life flourishing and the need

also to step up and be active, to be an activist, and to fight for those things

to try and bring that change about?

Yeah, because if you see any, any animal is that one, the,

the, the core characteristic of life is that it wants more life.

And so a mother, a mother polar bear defends its cubs from predators.

A mother bird will defend its nest from predators.

And we are destroying our only home.

It's as simple as that.

And so those in power, and it's complicated, it's really

complicated and it's not easy.

So it's not that we need to demonize those, those in power necessarily.

But those in power that are saying let's do something about climate breakdown and

then not doing it are being are complicit in the destruction of our only home.

The only place that we know is the source of life in the whole of the universe.

And so when we actually connect with that hurt and injustice and that anger that

naturally arises from this, this fear and this damage that's happening, then yeah.

Action is the natural consequence.

And coming back to that, the, the kind of the ego that we discussed earlier is

that, you know, how can we be proud of our, our individual success when actually

we are inseparable and dependent upon things that are outside of ourselves?

Is that when we realize that who we really are is not just George contained within a

bag of skin, but actually I'm all of this because I wouldn't be here without it.

Then my circle, circle of compassion extends to all of life ex and so the

harm to fire away people in sweat shops or to the other miracles, o of nature,

the other species that share this planet with us when they get killed, killed that

is a harm to myself because I am them.

I am all of it.

And so again, this natural desire to protect oneself can arise from

realizing who we are deep down.

I think one of the things I'd always, um, could always felt like the, one

of the big sort of challenges is helping people really understand.

Our interconnectivity.

And I think maybe when I think about it, it must be because trying to really

understand it myself, you know, this idea that actually really, if we could

understand, you know, what you do affects me and what I do affects you and on

and on and on and on and on, that we, we start to, you know, that that kind

of opens our eyes much more to, or, or kind of opens up potential for a

compassionate connection with each other.

And, but it feels we are so isolated.

We're so separate.

And so subjected to messages, which just reinforce these ideas from, you know,

from the earliest schooling of here in here in the west, you know, through to

how we live and function in the world.

It, it feels like that is such a huge task to help people really

understand the interconnection of

Yeah.

Yeah.

for sure.

It's such a crucial point and it makes me think of science.

So, you know, we are talking over the internet, the, the

photos of light bouncing off me.

Communicated to the Canberra, translated into binary code sent to you at

the speed of light represented to you, and then your feed back to me.

And so we can have a conversation in real time, let alone the thousands of people,

you know, however many people watch this.

So we are so powerful with our technology and our science.

And yet we are very disconnected from it.

And so, you know, science tells us in school.

So here's the planet earth.

We live on a planet floating in infinite space.

And we're all on this thing together.

And there's this thing called evolution where the intelligence

of the universe over billions of years has come from single cell

organisms to the miracle that is you.

Isn't that incredible everything's connect.

We're all part of one family.

The trees, you know, all the air that you breathe, 99% of it was made by plants.

And so you are perpetually being supported by the plants that renew

all the air for you to breathe.

Isn't that wonderful.

So then, you know, you learn that at school and then you leave school and you

never think about that again, because it doesn't enter into your consciousness

because you know, other, you know, life comes up, job comes up, and celebrity

culture or whatever our hobbies are.

And you know, that's fine, but also it means that we don't

keep that connection alive.

So I think this is the kind of the key thing that science misses by itself is

that it's too intellectual, it's cerebral.

And it's also quite an isolated understanding.

Something that religion does really well is that every week people go to

church or the synagogue or the mosque and come together in silence without

their smartphones, in, in, in a sense of reverence shared together in community for

the higher power and, and well, a power.

And we may see their metaphors and their stories as challenging, but I,

I really see that basic concept of, of sharing our spirituality together

and keeping these insights alive because it is hard to stay connected.

It is hard to keep in our, our consciousness that we are interconnected.

And so, I really see that there is a role for us to, to keep that alive and

that then being the ground, the grounding from which we make our decisions.

And I do believe that that could have big system change implications.

So a lot of these ideas that you we've been talking about here, these things,

so kind of seeing, and understanding and feeling how, you know, in the

challenge and complexity of my life today, the stress, the worry that I

have, whether it's, you know, a sort of, you know, micro, personal thing,

Whether it's a sort of a macro external thing that, that dowers has a role

of showing me a route out of that.

If I am sort of intrigued by that, I am curious about that, what, what is,

what does practice look like for, for the daoist and what your, I guess what

you, you just started to talk there.

This, how you, how do, how, what does practice look like?

Yeah.

So there's two types of learning.

We can talk about two types of learning, one being the outside in,

and then the second being inside out.

So outside in is you listen to podcasts.

You go to courses, you read books.

Somebody else's ideas you bring from the outside in.

However, the Dows also offers inside out.

Practices where we can take these ideas and then rediscover them for, for

ourselves through our own experience.

And, and, and so when it's inside out, it's much more powerful.

So it's not just an intellectual cerebral thing.

It's not just stuck in here, but instead it's an embodied thing.

And, and so the body can hold mystery because the body is part of this

natural mystery, whereas the brain wants to compartmentalize, everything.

So talked about meditation being one of the key paths to spiritual

realization for the daoists.

And this meditation for the daoists takes many different forms.

So people would've heard of probably Tai Chi and chigong.

So these are moving meditations where you are present, moving the body and that can

be an amazing grounding where often we can be so stuck in our heads and in the west.

We're so disembodied that the body is just seen as a vehicle to move the

brain between meetings rather than something that's valuable in itself.

Something that can be a teacher.

When we do Tai Chi, when we do chigong, we ground ourselves, we, we work on our

balance, we stand strong and grounded and rooted like a tree, and then we

breathe and we move with the breath.

And when we're present like that and, you know, takes time and takes practice,

we get glimpses of clarity and insight.

And for me, it's been being someone who can very easily be stuck in my head

too much, and then just think that I need to work everything outta my head

and say, ruminate ruminate, loop loop loop loop, get myself really confused

is that when I come into the body, I move with the body, I slow down.

I am very grateful for this practice that can help ground me.

And so, yeah, daoism offers us not only ideas and philosophy, but practices

because they look at ourselves holistically, mind, body, and spirit.

The mind and our intellectual understanding is not set from,

from the body, and the body is not separate from the mind.

We know that yeah, ideas can then affect our emotions and

words can affect our emotions.

And also what we eat can affect how we think.

And so there's this reciprocal relationship between the mind and the

body, because we are one whole organism.

There isn't a separation.

So these practices are super important.

And starting with a breath, I'd say is, is the kind of the key,

the key starting point is the breath or Chi the Chi of chigang.

When we are present with a breath, it is this anchor that

can help us stay grounded.

And so the simplest meditation practice that I do throughout the day every day

is that when I notice myself caught in loops that aren't serving me, that are

giving me pain, I take a single breath and I come back to the present moment.

Sometimes I go back to that breath, go back to that, that loop, thought spiral.

Often it's just that single breath can create that perspective.

So I can say, okay, I'm doing this.

Okay, let, let me reground.

And so yeah, the breath being the gateway into self-understanding

and self-compassion.

And so, uh, connecting that to what you were talking about before.

Um, or just, just a moment ago where we're talking about reverence, this sort

of connecting to a reverence or giving time for reverence, and that potentially

being a, a pathway, a gateway into a very, very profound systemic change.

For you, the, the, the first step on that journey, uh, is this, you know, might

be a practice of breath, for example.

Yeah, for sure.

And yeah, for anyone listening in the podcast, you can imagine

my movements, but one of, one of a great move from Chung Lee.

, who's an incredible tidy teacher who hopefully, if I, if I'm blessed, I

will learn with him in the next couple of years, one of his great moves

is opening the doorway to mystery.

So we yeah, have our feet together.

We cross our arms and then we open up and step back as we open up.

And we sink with a breath.

So we breathe out as we open up.

And this is a metaphor, an embodied metaphor for opening up to the mystery.

And when we are present and we begin to be present with our arms moving and our

breath and the for wonder of, yeah, no matter our fitness, stiffness or head

space, no matter any judgment that may come into our heads, when we are present

with this movement, we can find glimpses of reverence for, for nature and for

who we are, because we are this embodied manifestation of the intelligence of the

universe, the Dao, God Aoife Brahman.

However you want to talk about it when we are.

Moving the body.

We can actually connect with that and it doesn't need to just

be an intellectual experience.

So a lot of what you do is about teaching through video.

Is that right?

So where, where, where would people find more of

Yeah.

So I I'd gratefully welcome you to my YouTube channel.

If you type in George Thompson on YouTube, you'll find it.

There's lots of videos that I've been making over the last five years also

got an amazing free online community called Wayfinders, where we have now

a thousand people from all around the world who, yeah, are sharing

each other's spiritual journeys.

And so it's our own social network.

And I host weekly chigong and meditation practices on that every

Wednesday at 7:00 PM, UK time.

And that's completely free.

And yeah, I've also recently completed a daoism course, which is, has 10 hours of

pre-recorded content if you want to get even deeper with me, you'll find some.

For that as well.

Fantastic.

And I just did a, uh, course with you as well, which was absolutely fantastic.

And, and really, um, what you were talking about there, this, this

connecting to a movement practice, cause a lot of my own practice.

So I have a regular meditation practice, which is very it's sitting, I'm sitting

seated, uh, and I've really enjoyed a, adding the movement to the morning,

adding some movement to the evening as well as punctuating time during the day.

But yeah, so I've really felt the benefit of movement actually.

So thank you for

Mm.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm very glad you, you have felt the benefit and they

all offer different things.

So in the meditation group that I host on Wednesdays, we do a seated practice.

And then we do a moving practice because they teach us different things.

You get a clarity and stillness with the, with the seated practice.

And then the movement is yeah, expressing yourself with, with your body.

And so to the point earlier, there's, there's so many different practices

and movements that can help you.

And so yeah, taking what serves you and, and what helps you on your journey.

Brilliant, George.

Thank you very much for your time.

Ben.

It's amazing what you're doing really grateful.

We are part of this movement and it can feel hopeless at times, but yeah, we gotta

hold onto hope as a state of mind, rather than a state of the world, where we work

for things that are good in themselves, rather than the likelihood of success.

So more power to you and thank you for everything that you do.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with George Thompson, all the information

about George's online work, his YouTube channel, his online community

wayfinders.global, check out all the information in the, in the show notes.

Uh, and if you like the conversation you like what we're doing, check out, you can

check out all the others, go to the, go to my website, search up budhaontheboard.com

and you'll find the information links to Peripheral Thinking there, and of

course all your usual podcast providers.

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Uh, the sharing, you taking the time to point others to it.

So I'm kind of hugely appreciative of you giving us your time to

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Hugely appreciative of your effort in helping us spread the word.

Uh, until next time.