Brian and Josie Parker of @believeinwonder_pub speak with Emily about creating and publishing books where all kids—particularly BIPOC kids—can see themselves as heroes and adventurers. We also talk about the difficult feelings and frustrating conversations that they've had in the wake of George Floyd's murder, the difference between brands that pay lip service and ones that take action when it comes to BLM, and when asking Black people questions about racism and social justice is (and isn't!!!) a good move.

Our website: hybridpubscout.com/43-Brian-Josie-Parker-Books-Black-POC-kids

Facebook: www.facebook.com/hybridpubscout/

Twitter: twitter.com/hybridpubscout

Instagram: www.instagram.com/hybridpubscoutpod/

Our newsletter: eepurl.com/gfajR9

But when you're making the stuff and you put it out in

front of people, sometimes there's this kind of resistance.

They're like, I'm this doesn't look like it's for me, yeah.

And so it's a especially, people have to put their money where

into it, or they have to take a space where they could put

something that's more profitable there they will choose profit

over over inclusivity or diversity every time you

foreign Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout

podcast with me. Emily einlander, we're mapping the

frontier between traditional and indie publishing. Today I'm

joined by Brian and Josie Parker of believe in wonder publishing.

Believe in wonder is a youth focused publishing entity based

in Portland, Oregon. They publish internally developed

works like the wondrous science you can rely on platypie and

Crow in the hollow, but also actively search out new and

amazing works to bring to the public eye. Their focus is to

promote imagination, inspiration and positive thinking in kids

and adults alike, in a time where social pressures and

injustices threaten to take away our ability to dream of a better

future, they hope to promote endeavors and education that

uplifts and inspires, as well as provides creative outlets for

the young and young at heart, they have an emphasis on

bringing these opportunities to underrepresented communities and

their allies, but hope their work and message is embraced by

many. We also spoke with Brian back in episode 11, and he

joined us, along with Greg girding of University of hell as

part of our business of being an author series in conjunction

with Jan's Beaverton bookstore, Josie joined Brian today to

speak about the challenges they've experienced as black

creators and publishers of children's books. They also

share how they balance the resistance they've gotten in the

industry and other general tolls on their mental and emotional

health, with their mission to inspire young readers,

particularly those who have had fewer opportunities to see

themselves as heroes in the books they read, they are also

joined today, Occasionally by their chief inspiration,

officers Victor and Kamari Parker, so let me just start

here. I remember something that we may have talked about in our

first time we talked for the show you, saying something about

how it's harder, or maybe this was on Facebook, how it's harder

to get a job in a publishing house for someone who is older

and has a family because you, you actually, like, need money

and benefits and can't be as, yeah, yeah. So was that, was

that sort of, this the spur for you starting your own, your own

company, or was that the plan all along? Like, how did, I

guess, how did, like, the resistance in the publishing

industry to to needs of yours.

Well, it's, it's kind of, it was, it's, like a lot of

things. It's, it's, it was spurred on by multiple stimulus

but one, one thing was, yeah, is that getting a job in the

publishing industry as a as a older professional, as somebody

that had been, you know, that had moved from one part, one

aspect of making art and working in design and trying to move

into this industry that wanted to kind of Start you all from

the ground up again, that was that was tough. And as somebody

who had tried to publish books in the past, you know, we went

the traditional route. We went to the all of the book events.

We went to all of the the writers conferences. We showed

our stuff to editors. We showed our stuff to other artists,

other other writers, and there was this weird resistance that

was just like, Oh, these books are great. I'm not exactly sure

how we would market them. And I was like, Okay, if you know, you

hear it from one person and you're just like, oh, well,

maybe this particular publishing company is going in a different

direction, you know, maybe they're focusing on different

demographic. But then you hear it a couple of times, and then

you start to think to yourself, you know, maybe it's not. The

quality of the work. Maybe it's just that there's not a

publishing house out there where the kind of work that we make

really can flourish, you know, and then you start to as a

creative, you start to ask yourself all kinds of stupid

questions, like, you know, well, maybe, maybe I'm making the

wrong kind of stories, maybe, maybe I got the wrong kind of

characters, you know, maybe I'm not looking at what's popular

right now, and then you start making creative decisions based

on what you think other people are going to like. And that's

the, I think that's the weird thing you, the weird line you

you stand on as a as a creative and a person that's trying to

sell your stuff is that you want to find a market for it, but you

don't want to, like, you know, change your voice so much to so

that you can fit in. And then, and then, at one point, I had

somebody just kind of say it outright, you know, to me, they

were like, look, I love these books, these, these, I mean,

this is really good stuff. And they're like, a lot of

publishers have a hard time publishing, you know, characters

of color, because they don't think that that community is

really interested in these

kinds of stories. And then, um, general population won't pick up

a book of a person, yeah, with a person of color on it. And, I

mean, I was like, Are you, yeah.

I mean, what I kind of, I kind of appreciate, I kind of

appreciate the person said it to me, and they said it to me

without malice. Then they said it was like, straight. It was

just like, This is the reality of it. You know, this is, this

is what you have to

deal with. And I have to hear it again, because I was like, I

have to pick up a book about, you know, a person that's not

my, my my background, or anything like that. That's like

a thing that's every day. Yeah? So, how is it that the opposite

isn't

true? Yeah? And it's weird for a reader, you know? Because I,

yeah, I grew up reading all kinds of stuff. Yeah, you know,

I just got a copy the other day of scary stories to tell in the

dark. Yeah? Well, it's the collected version of all three

books. And I love that stuff. I used to read, daddy used to

read. I read Agatha Christie when I was, like, in second

grade, you know, and there were no POC characters in there. So,

I mean, the idea of picking up a book that has that, that deals

with the culture or or main characters that aren't like you.

That's just seems like it's just part of the reading experience.

It's like this, but, but when you're making the stuff and you

put it out in front of people, sometimes there's this kind of

resistance. They're like, I'm this doesn't look like it's for

me.

Yeah. And so it's especially people have to put their money

where into it, or they have to take a space where they could

put something that's more profitable. There they will

choose profit over over inclusivity or diversity every

time.

Yeah. And then, when we put out our first book, our first, our

first graphic novel, um, you can rely on platypine, because Josie

was like, Brian, stop talking about making stuff, and then

actually just make

something. Yeah, and then, and it was like, what? 90%

yes, it's both. I mean, one of the reasons why the main

character, I think, at that time, I think we, we came up

with him, is like, I want to, first off, I wanted to make him

a platypus. But then at the same time, I made his, like, best

friend, a POC character. And I was like, let's see what people

will say if we make something and we just write the story that

we want to tell, and we took it to a comic book, not comic book

convention. It was there's actually a anime con in

Anchorage, Alaska. And people were so cool. People were so

awesome. They came and they they engaged with us. They talked

about the stories. They were so encouraging. They were so happy

with the with the work that we had done. And I more than, more

often than not, there were people that were just like, oh

my gosh, I've never seen a story like this. Yeah. So that was one

of the main things. It's like, after that, we were like, well,

if we can't find anybody that wants to publish our work, even

though it's good, if we can't get the support that we need to

publish it, if we if even though it's good, then we just need to

do this on our own and and even though we knew a good bit of

stuff about printing and design and layout and how to get in

touch with editors and all this stuff. Up, I still felt like I

didn't know enough. So that's when I went back. I was like,

I'm gonna get a master's degree in this and I'm not gonna I'm

not gonna lie. It was a really great experience. And I love

being at Portland State, but it's so weird how many times I

was being taught something that I already knew, and I was just

like, and Brian would come home and he'd be like, I don't know

this class. I think if I could probably teach this class, why

are you telling

me? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh, man, I there's one class I've

just rocked the socks off of is designing book covers and book

layout and stuff and but then again, a lot of the people that

were in the program were English majors, and they were, they had,

you had a background in writing, and I had an actual background

in design and, and, thank you. Worked at a printer and did all

that stuff so but I'm glad that I did, because when I came out

of it, then I was like, well, at least we know now that we're

standing on a firm ground of this is what we know.

And then Brian was like, I'm a master. Just call me Master for

the rest of the year. And you're like,

you wish you could get, like, a badge. After you get your

degree, you just walk around be like you can. I'm introduce

myself as master Ryan.

Just get one of the get one of those stoles

or whatever, yeah. So you

wear it all the time. The like, the backwards scarf,

backwards scarf, um, yeah. So if I recall

one of my issues when I was going to school for this was

that mostly it was just the traditional path being taught.

Yeah. Do you feel like you got resources you needed to get

started doing things on your own? Or do you feel like that

just wasn't something that people expected anyone

I got the feeling that people were trying to be

progressive in the way that they were thinking, and not only in

how to navigate the industry and how to find new markets and

stuff, but yeah, I mean, a lot of it was, this is how it's been

done. So, you know, you need to learn how it's been done before

you can go out there and break the mold and do something

different.

Then also, you know, there was the change in how people were

getting their content. So there was more of web based things.

There were there was more of non traditional trajectory of how

people did their publishing and got their stuff out there. So,

you know, that wasn't, I'm not sure if that was hit on in those

classes, but we were researching, and we were saying,

hey, you know we can do, we can put our books on Amazon, and we

can put our books on on the on the web and then still make a

pretty decent amount of money, yeah?

But yeah. I mean, every everything that we it ends up

the way that we do. It just kind of flies in the face of, yeah,

everything how it's supposed to be done. Because we teach, we

offer, we offer, you know, interviews like we'll talk to

people about processes and diversity and you know, we kind

of fit a niche that people didn't even know that they

wanted, you know? So when they see our website. They say, Oh,

you guys can go into the classrooms, or you guys have

done this thing or this thing, yeah. And they're like, Wow, we

might need this service from you guys

well, and, and the way that we make books too, I mean, we,

we're not sourcing out what, what it looks like the key

demographics are looking for. Or, you know, what are trends in

the, you know, in the YA or, you know, middle reader or picture

book genres and stuff. We just write stories that we that we

love, you know, that we want to see this. Yeah, it's like, why I

want, I've always wanted to see this story. And where's that

quote from? Is it Tony Morrison? Or is it Yes, Toni Morrison, or

she's like, if you don't see a book out there, then you're

meant to write it. You're supposed to go and make it and

that you want to read, or,

yeah, exactly, you know, I mean, I'm paraphrasing,

but yeah, that's kind of the thrust of it and, and it's the

thing about it too, is that it's, I feel that especially

science fiction and fantasy and and books that you read in.

Youth. I mean, these things are aspirational, you know, yeah,

when you're reading these stories, they they unlock a part

of your brain that says, I can do these things. I can be these

things. And I think that that's probably a big it's a disconnect

between people that are putting the books out there and the

audiences, is that they think to themselves, is that people want

to see stuff that they're familiar with, but also people

want to see stuff that allows them to be something more than

what they are, too. So when a young person of color or a LGBTQ

youth or something is picking up a book and they don't see

themselves represented as as a hero, as a as a king, as a

queen, as a powerful wizard, as a as someone that can travel

between universes and stuff. I mean, when they don't see

themselves in those roles and stuff, then they don't get that

opportunity to unlock that potential in their brain, you

know, to dream bigger than who they actually are. Also, if

there's a young person that's reading it and does and they're

the villain, yeah, all the time. Then you start to internalize

that. You start to internalize that these are the roles that

are available to me. You know, I am this guy, I am that girl, I I

feel this niche also, too. I think that, you know, when a

young person doesn't see other people represented in those in

those roles, yeah, and then they, they start to internalize

it, too,

and that can solidify that, you know, the only people that are

important to me are the people that are in my immediate circle,

that look like me, yeah, that act like me, that don't oppose

any views that I have, Yeah, you know.

And unfortunate it is because, I mean, there's, there's this

really weird tradition, too, of even when a writer does write a

strong, you know, female character, a strong POC

character, a strong LGBTQ character, or something, then

it's the, it's the Lean of people who try, are trying to

market it to as many people as possible to to water that down

in like the cover, or the way that it's marketed, or, you

know, which, which, which places that they're putting the book,

because they want to make sure that they're not scaring anybody

off. But I don't know, it just seems like it's so much more

powerful when it's when it's just presented to you. And I

feel that right now it starts becoming better. And I'm seeing

it in animation too, which is another was just like a you

know, kind of offshoot of YA books and those kinds of stories

where it's put in there, and it's just part of the story.

It's not a preachy thing. It's not this kind of overt we're

trying to make a stance thing. It's just this who the character

is, and it becomes, it's normalizing. It's it really does

kind of infuse into your your subconscious, without you even

working really hard for it. And I feel like that's like the best

part about stories is that you learn the stuff through being

entertained. You know? You learn the stuff without actually

having to be preached at. Which is, which is awesome, you know,

yeah. And

did you want me to take him? Okay, so, yeah, I mean, we've

been thinking about the stuff a lot lately, especially with

everything that's going on. And, you know, the shift in culture

right now these kind of, this unexpected vulnerability that

everybody's feeling, you know, and I really do feel like a lot

of these, these big changes and stuff that are happening is,

kind of is coming from that, is that people feel vulnerable,

they feel raw, they feel a little scared. And then when

stuff is happening in your periphery, and you don't feel

like you have very much license to do anything about it, those

those emotions really do kind of, you know, churn up to the

surface and right, and it's good thing, it's a good thing that

it's happening. But, you know, it's hard right now to find a

way to take the feelings and find a way to focus them in a

positive way, because.

Yeah, and the and the two of you have been out

in the community for years, and Portland is an extremely white

place, as you know, I mean, and I feel like this is a meta

comment right now that I feel like a lot of people are turning

to you, like, well, you've always been the diversity

person. Like, tell me what you think so.

Well, it's, it's weird. And Josie told me this before.

Do you want me to say it? Okay, it is

interesting, because this started, maybe, what, two years

ago, where people were like, Hey, you're already doing

diversity. Can you come talk to our people and tell them what

you think about diversity? And I was like. I was like, Brian, you

go ahead and do that, because I know myself. And yeah, I'm not

really the person to talk to you and be on in the spotlight and

have people ask me questions, because, to me, I grew up in the

South, so it's like, how, how am I supposed to explain to you

your view of me or people like me? So I let Brian do it,

because he's kind of a little bit more soft and gentler.

I am. I'm very non threatening.

Yes, I would be threatening. People would be like, You are

not invited back again.

I think we kind of need that right now,

though, only if you want to offer it, though

it's a discussion we have a lot of because we do have

very different backgrounds. Because, you know, I grew up in

Alaska, and Jesse grew up down south, and I grew up around I

was the only black person in my town. So a lot of our job was

explaining to people what

blackness is, and where we were. You were like, higher class,

like higher middle class. We were like, poor to low, like,

really low middle class. So we were out of the projects, barely

out of the projects, but we were in a neighborhood where we were

the only black family there, and then all the people there didn't

want our family there, so projects is right down the

street, and the projects were right down the street. They were

like, how about you just go back to the projects? And we're like,

we didn't ever come from that project.

So yeah, I think we Yeah, okay, we've both been kind of bucking

stereotypes, yeah, our whole lives, and it's, I mean, it's a

it's an unspoken thing, but I mean, there are stereotypes in

every community, and I think right now, a lot of people focus

a lot, too on on the stereotypes that are being forced onto

people of color, but the part that they don't talk about, and

it's almost more insidious to me, is the stereotypes that have

been so baked into our culture that that black people Sometimes

enforce those stereotypes on each other, which is, it's a

it's insidious. It's the way that it's the way that culture

has kind of crafted this narrative of who we are, and

then some of it, it's just, it stains things, you know, it

stains, it stains our own perception, sometimes of

ourselves, and we have to the big part of Black Lives Matters

is not only that, we're trying to tell people that are that are

our lives matter, but we're trying to reinforce it to

ourselves.

Because, like, I hear what you're saying, and here's what I

say to that is that when you have been like the Kimberly lady

said, when you have been, you know, first of all, enslaved for

so many years, and then you were supposed to be free, but then

you weren't really free, because you couldn't, you couldn't buy

land where you wanted to buy land, and you couldn't do this.

So you were placed in these, in these spots where you were

going. You were heavily policed. You were seeing yourself go to

jail, and you were seeing your brothers and your sisters, you

know, not being able to accomplish things. Those are

reinforcing your own, those stereotypes, and you're saying,

Oh, well, I can't make it out of the ghetto. I can't do these

things so and you, you're seeing your family, you know, these

cycles of things just continually happening, from

grandparents to parents to yourself, yeah? So when you have

that, then, then, of course, that's going to be a self

fulfilling, yeah. Yeah.

I mean and, and. We talk about this kind of unspoken biases

that that not only law enforcement, for dang sure,

have, but this, these biases that exist just everywhere, and

people don't even know that they have these biases. You know,

they're just so part of the way that they think.

And like a doctor, you tell you show some children, no matter

what race the children are, you know, show some children, you

know, black person in us, in whatever situation, and a white

person in a situation. And then they'll say, show me the doctor.

And they're going to go to the white person,

yeah, because in their mind, they think that this is more

than likely, that's who that's going to be.

And when you say, like, well, then show me who is this person.

What would this person be doing? And then you would get, if you

talk to normal children, you'll say that. You'll say, Oh, this

isn't true, but if you actually do that experiment, yeah, it's

kind of sad, well.

And the sad thing is, is that they start off without any

biases, yeah, but when you're when you read stories to them,

and they watch TV, and then the biases start to you start to

interpret them, because you're just trying to figure out how to

navigate the world. So, and that's ends up being what we do

when we make these books, is like, you know, what's the,

what's the, what's the best way to break some money out of that?

Yeah, that, yeah, that that loop is to be like, well, let's show

them representations of other people, of people being amazing

in other ways.

And that's really foster kid too, because I said another one

is that foster kids are mostly, you know, low income people,

African American people of color are filling those spots up. And

so that's another place where you can, we have the opportunity

to say, hey, you know, just because you're in foster care

doesn't mean that that this is a bad thing. This isn't uh,

but you're a bad person. Yeah, because everybody's family deals

with with problems and issues. So, yeah, so, I mean, a lot of

it ends up being about, you know, I like to call it mental

flexibility, the idea that you can that your mind can expand

enough that you can hold more than one idea of something in

it, you know. And people right now have seemed like there's a

lot of mental rigidity, you know, they don't want to flex

their ability to, you know, hold concepts like, well, maybe I

grew up thinking that this kind of person acts this kind of way.

But all the people that I've met, none of them fall into

that, that particular category. So maybe that that idea came

from a place of, you know, of ignorance. So, but they can,

they can, can they process that and not make it out like the

person that's telling it to them is saying, Hey, you're a bad

person, you know, I keep running into that every time we're on on

the internet. It's like, you know, I was like, Okay, we're

trying to explain to somebody, What does white privilege mean?

What does white fragility mean? And then they're like, no, no, I

don't want to listen, I'm

a black friend. I have a black friend. I'm like, you know,

you're actually showing me that you are. Yeah, this

is the best one. This is the best one. Um, well, it's not the

best one, but it's my favorite. It's the I don't see color. I

live in a world where there is for you. Must be amazing. Yeah.

I mean your world where it's like everybody is equal and

everything's just, you know, above board and stuff, that's

awesome. My situation is not that. So maybe you're living in

a space of privilege, because you can look past all of those

things. And then I said, the one person, they just kind of just

looked at me for a second,

because sometimes you can see that you broke something, yeah,

and then they don't want, either they like they don't want to

deal with it, or they don't want you to have the satisfaction of

seeing that they that they realize it now

kind of defense this mental rigidity. It's like when you

tell somebody a new idea, and instead of their brain expanding

to encompass that new idea, it cracks because it's just too

stuck in that one way of thinking. And. I'm like, you

have to give some elasticity to your to your ways of thinking.

Hello, I think it's one thing about being a foster parent that

you that's kind of becomes your superpower, is that you, um, you

literally cannot. You cannot lean on expectation at all. You

know that there's any ideas you had about what your your your

family or your children were going to look like, what their

their thought patterns were going to be, what their

experiences were going to be. All of that shatter, shattered,

bro, bro. But every time it does, if you your your

understanding, grows a little bit, and it heals back, and it

makes it bigger. And sometimes it's hard to talk to people

about these things because they don't have that. It's there.

They haven't had their Yeah, yeah.

So usually we sit here and we try to talk to them about

especially in the community that we're in, it's a

intergenerational community. And so they're like, Oh, well, when

my children little, they didn't scream like that. And they're

like, well, your children weren't exposed to things in

utero. Were they? No, they weren't.

And it's, it's really hard, especially when you're talking

to, like, elder Americans, you know, people of a different

generation. Because I think as you get older, you're that

rigidity gets even, even worse. You know, there's like, this is

the way things are. This is how they this is what they were like

when it was good. And all this new stuff that you add on to

life is just making it worse. And it's really hard to I mean,

I look at some of those, those Trump rallies and stuff. And I

notice a lot of older people in there, and I'm like, I get that,

I get that there.

It kind of plays into the thing you were

saying about, like, being able to fit more stuff into a vessel

that's already been Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's it's scary. I mean, I think about

that as I'm getting older too. I There's sometimes I see like a

new cartoon, and I'm like, Oh my God,

they are so weird. None of these jokes make any sense to me.

And when I feel that, that sense of rigidity and my way of

thinking I'm like, Okay, well, maybe I should sit down and

watch it with them and see why they enjoy it so much. And, you

know, a lot of times it ends up it's just because everything's

constantly moving that it's the most entertaining thing in the

world for them. So, so, you know, I don't know it's, it's

hard to argue with, it's hard to talk to people sometimes about

the stuff online, because, because of the things that we

do, the work that we do, we try to project a sense of

positivity, yeah, a sense of kind of,

try doing it now though, try being positive. Now, it's hard.

Oh, my god. It's so hard. And

I try not to say anything, or I, I hate that when you have like,

because I only, I only deal in Facebook, because I can't do it

too many social media outlets, it just, it's too much for me.

But, um, like, so I have a page, and I'm like, if, if I'm writing

something on my page, I don't want your opinion, especially if

you're going to try to argue my feelings and my thoughts, right?

So, so I see Brian struggling with this a lot, and I'm like,

just delete it, you know, like you don't have to, you know, you

don't have to. They have their own page where they can put

their their thoughts on and, you know, and they you could choose

not to look at their page. But it's funny when they try to to

put whatever on your thought, and I'm like, Um, no, no,

thank you both, both of our opinions can exist at the same

space. You know, having to destroy minds to make more space

for yours and show

me why I'm wrong for thinking whatever I'm thinking.

But yeah, it's been hard because I always feel an over an over

sense of responsibility to explain to people what's going

on, at least from my perspective, because it seems

like they don't get it. And I'm like, Well, wait, maybe let me

craft this so that you can better understand it. And

there's been a lot of, like, really long conversations. With

people online, trying to explain these things to them, and it's

tiring, because I can't be positive about it all the time I

and I don't want to water down the moment, because that anger

that like for real anger, that legit, righteous anger that

people are feeling right now when they're at the marches,

when they're at the protest, when it turns into a riot, that

kind of thing, even though I know that all the rioting isn't

the protesters, you know, but there is this kind of overt

sense of anger that's just floating around. And I don't

want to water that down, because, like, you know, if we

use the analogy from before, if you need to break rigid minds so

that they can understand it, there's, there's kind of no

better way to do it than to do it with, you know, some hot,

righteous anger. I mean, that's, that's gonna break a rigid mind

quick. But, um, yeah, I don't know we I think at some point,

you know, after all the all the breaking is done, there has to

be, like, some, there has to be some, like, bringing it back

together

too, yeah. But to me, I feel like, you know, if, um, if you

are ready to understand and learn something, then you take

that upon yourself. You don't ask someone else to learn it for

you. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, so like, if, if you're

asking me, how, how do I deal with being a black person? Then

you're not ready to learn because you, there's plenty of

resources out there for you to understand. Mm, hmm, are you

know, what we've been through? There's plenty of there's a

library, there's the internet. I mean, really, why do you need my

opinion right now, especially in the in the heat of the moment?

Yeah, that you're not going to get the answer that you want

from me,

that we had this really great interaction with a person who is

a kind and loving and very open person that we walk away, but we

literally we posted something about, if you're unfamiliar with

the concepts of of of white fragility and and, and, yeah,

white privilege, Then here are a bunch of, like, really good book

resources. Yeah, there were links. And she was like, Oh,

wow, I'd really like learn more about this. Can I borrow your

copies? And I'm like, you just kind of sit there

for myself to read these things.

Like, obviously, I have copies of these books, because

it has a lot to do with my personal journey before, but no

copies of them and but it was really cool because a friend of

a really good friend of ours as well, kind of chimed in, and

she's like, I have copies of them. Yeah, I think that we

should educate ourselves on these things. And she was, she

was also a person of, well, she's, she's a Caucasian person.

So she was just like, hey, well, you and me talk about this, and

we'll leave them to their devices. But, but, yeah, yeah.

So. So I know a lot of people, obviously, from

what you just said, are having confusion about this, especially

people who consider themselves progressive or liberal, like, at

what point is it okay to ask questions and it doesn't put too

much of a burden on you?

Well, I would say, I would say, after you've done

some research yourself, and you have a point of view and you

have some understanding, then you can say, well, I've read

this thing, and I would like some clarity, or, you know,

something like that, because then that way it's not we're

doing all of the educating for you. You've done some research,

you've done some work yourself.

Well, yeah, because it really makes it drives home the point

that that it's important to them to understand if they've done

some leg work themselves. And that's the thing, is that these,

these, these are important conversations. They're

uncomfortable conversations, but they're important ones. We just

don't want it to feel like that when you come into the

conversation, you're sitting back and like, Okay,

tell me everything. Teach me. Yeah, tell me what's up.

It puts all the burden on the on the person that's being kind of,

you know, underrepresented already, the person that's kind

of dealing with the trauma, having a person that's gone

through trauma explain their trauma to you, yeah, and it's

because we get a whole bunch of, how are you feeling? Like, what

do you think about the things going on today, or whatever, the

riots and all this stuff? And we're like, yeah, it's just a

real world. Yeah, I think the best, the best thing that I've

seen was right, right after the marches started. It was no, it

was no, it was actually it was even earlier than that. It was

right after the video of George Floyd came out. And there was

all this hurt, and there was all this like, real, real trauma

floating around, and we were feeling it here. We woke up that

morning, we saw it on the on our Facebook post. Justin couldn't

watch it, but I watched it. And the rest of the day, I was just,

I was in a hole, you know, and I was just because you yourself

that things are moving forward, and that you're moving to a

point where you're going to be perceived and and appreciated

for who you are outside of these these stereotypes. But then you

see that the stuff is actually happening. And the thing that

gave me hope was that I looked online and LeVar Burton, yeah,

had posted, and he was like, Don't fuck with me today. Oh, my

God. It's like one of the most giving, one of the most

generous, one of the most kindest and eloquent men that

have ever graced this world. You know, was just like, I'm in it

right now. Don't talk to me. You know,

he's really good, and

he's very telling. You know, when it's like, Mr.

Rogers, drink putting up a finger and be like, get the fuck

out my face. Right now, if that happened to you, you would know

I am in the wrong. I am doing something bad. If Mr. Rogers

can't deal

with my face right now. I also like that there were some things

that I saw, like the the lady in the park, where it said, if you

are more concerned about the dog, the the buildings and the

stuff, then you're you need to rethink some things, because

human life should mean more to you than the dog, the buildings

and the stuff,

yeah, this is the Central Park, yeah, right

after Yeah, nerd watching,

yeah, because those were, like, the two things that

happened.

I mean, because it happened, like in this within like days of

each other,

yeah. And, I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, all this

stuff is, I mean, it's been ongoing for decades, you know,

yeah. So it's not like, it's it's new that these actions are

happening. It's just that it got caught on video. And then also,

on top of that, we're all stuck at home. Everybody's stuck at

home. It's like, you're, you're being, you're being sat down and

forced to deal with something that you don't want to deal

with. And it's probably, it's probably good for everybody,

that is happening that way, because we literally have to

stare this thing in the face and be like, Yeah, well, we can't

push past it. We can't ignore it anymore. And so it's tough. It's

tough for people that rely on that sense of goodwill and joy

to do what they do, because it makes it in short supply. And I

know that for us, it's been that way too. So making, making work

has been problematic when you're dealing with a lot of angry

feelings, but you have to, you have to find a way to channel it

too. Because I think if, if anything that black culture has

taught the world is that how you can make beautiful art even when

your soul is suffering, the soul suffering actually feeds the

work of I mean, just think about any, any, any form of of

creativity that that African American people have committed

to in this in this country, it's it's fueled by hope, joy,

tragedy, and these kind of like deep seated feelings of pain,

but finding a way to kind of add something to it that's going to

make it something beautiful. So we're trying to, they're trying

to dig deep and and connect with that part of our culture and who

we are, and find a way to to make it so that it's something

that can help other people to better understand

what's going on right now, you know? And it's weird because I'm

we were sitting there writing,

we're writing the epic of Nicholas the baker, which is

about Santa Claus, you know. But I'm sitting there and reading it

now. I'm like, in the last two chapters of of the. Second

draft, and there's a lot of stuff about what's going on

right now in the world that has found its way into the story,

which is strange, but it actually, I think, made it

better, because there's an idea of being isolated because you're

you're different, and the preconceived ideas people have

about you because of who you are and where you came from that

don't necessarily mesh with who you see yourself as, right? And

I mean, these are big themes. These are themes that a lot of

people can appreciate and understand, and it finds its way

into the story. You're not even trying to put it in there.

You're not trying to be, you're not trying to be preachy or, you

know, or overt about it. But it finds its way into the work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just organically comes

out.

Yeah, yeah.

So, um, how do you find, like, we talked a

little bit about, wait, no, hold up. I'm switching gears. Okay.

What's it been like to see all of these, like brands and

publishing companies and everyone kind of putting up

Black Lives Matter and the black squares and all that kind of

stuff. And, I mean, and this week, it's kind of petered out a

little bit like, yeah, how? What are your thoughts on that kind

of, let

me, let me tell you about my experience. I am a

NASCAR girl. My dad, yeah, my dad from very young. We would

watch NASCAR. My dad grew up same way with his father. And so

the events of NASCAR, I don't know if you know anything about

it, yeah, so when they came back, they came back, and I

guess the the main guy at NASCAR kind of took the stance of, you

know, they they said Black Lives Matter. And then they kind of

like stopped one of their races, and, um, they paused for George

Floyd. They then the next race or something, said, No

Confederate flags. And, bubba wallace is the only only one

professional driver. Now there's pit crew members and stuff like

that that are people of color that are are behind the scenes

or whatever, but he's front line. He's the only one that's

front line. And, like, a couple years ago, Danica Patrick was

the first woman, um, so that that's huge in and of itself.

But um, the, I guess this last over this last weekend, there

was a noose found in his garage, and how NASCAR and everybody

involved kind of stood with him. You know how they empowered him

in this whole movement, movement of forward movement. It was

actual, literal, because you could see them moving his car

forward on pit road before the thing all everybody, even

Richard Petty, came out to stand next to him and with him and

beside him. And you know that to me, because I grew up in the

South. I grew up in Mississippi, and I already knew that, you

know, I would never go to a NASCAR race because there was

too much questionable people and things. So, um, seeing that made

me respect NASCAR way more than I had ever, you know, yeah, and

thought about it, but yeah, so that that is a major thing. And

I, and I'm, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking all of the comments

that I've seen on some of those posts about that and the flag,

or whatever else NASCAR has done that America has not, is, is not

ready, but NASCAR kind of pushing them to do this and and

kind of change their position on things is what is what's needed,

because, you know, it forces you kind of to think about your your

point of view, and see, well, why did this brand that I love

so much change? Yeah, you know. And so, yeah.

And, I mean, that's a perfect example, too. It's like, you

know, it's one thing to make a declaration that black lives

matter, and we're going to push for, you know, diversity,

inclusion and equity, but when you get pushed back from the

people. How you react, and how you react, that's, that's when

the literally, when the rubber hits the road. It's like, yes.

So when these companies put up these big, you know, these big,

fancy declarations, I'm like, I hope they

hold to it, yeah, I want to see that there's more inclusion and

more people of color being invited or being associated with

your with your brand, I want to see people of color in your

commercials. I want people see people of color in the higher

levels of your company, if you believe that statement, you

know. And so what NASCAR did was they actually acted out on, on

that, on that claim. And, you know, I was, I was blown away. I

didn't post about it at all, because I know how people are

hurting, like they're like, like, raw, yeah, and so I'm not

gonna say anything about it, but I'm, watching, and it's, it's

amazing to see the number of people and and, you know, see

where they fall on this, on this thing,

yeah, See that initial statement, and then go,

Okay, right?

I like this thing that I saw on one of the social

medias. It's like we are not we're no longer accepting words

or apologies. We are only accepting change behaviors.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what, that's what you hope that

it ends up being. I mean, literally, you know, it's, it's,

it's, it's one of those things where it's, if people, if people

don't embrace this moment. You know, there's a lot of times

when something uncomfortable happens and you have to kind of

suffer through it at that moment. You know, you can't put

it off until later, because the desire and the and the fire to

actually learn from it, that's where that's that's the moment,

that's the pivotal point. So I really hope that people embrace

it, because this is, this is going to be huge for a lot of

people, not just for African American people, you know. And I

think that sometimes people take that out of take it out of

context, the whole black lives matter. Thing is that the whole

time that any movement within the African American community

towards equity has happened, it always seems like it's like,

he's like, Oh, me, me, me, me, me, us, us. And it's like, no,

no. It's like, if, if, right now, in in the hierarchy of of

society, if we're at the bottom rung, you know, the moment we we

gain some level of equity, everybody is lifted up, you

know, yeah, you know, a rising tide lifts, all ships, that kind

of thing. So it's like, I want equity for for indigenous

people. I want equity for LGBTQ communities. I want equity for

Asian American populations and Pacific Islanders and any any

group that feels humans. Humans, yeah, humans, yeah. You know, I

won't hashtag all lives matter, but you know that statement is

is redundant. It's like human beings matter. Of course.

They base like, if you having a hard time with Black Lives

Matter, and you want to say all lives matter, just think of the

community, and you're living in a community. And of course,

there's all houses, but there's the only one that's on fire.

There's the one that we were trying to pay attention to all

the other houses, but we wanted to call the one that is on fire,

and take care of that one.

Take care of that one. The entire

neighborhood is.

I saw another one that might not be a one for one

example, but it was like, you know, if, if somebody says, Save

the whales, and if somebody replies, all fish. I was like,

that's a really good example, and it made me laugh.

Yeah, I think I saw that on a comic, yeah,

yeah. I mean, I find examples by that silly, like all cancer

matters Exactly.

It's like, who would say breast cancer is the only

cancer saying, let's raise money for it right now. How about

that? But I don't know. I think that all of this stuff right

now, the thing that it's that's got me the hardest is that it

really does. Bring to light the lack the lack of empathy and

some of the lack of of understanding and mental

flexibility that people have. And I'm like, where is that

coming from?

But not only that, for me, because, um, our sons are

adopted so and their doctor out of foster care, and so I've made

it my job to make sure that they feel like it's a part of life to

have counseling, and they're part of a counseling program.

And but the problem is, is that we we're seeking like we're

looking for stuff, and there's not a there's not qualified

people, or people that can service the African American

community, like if you would, if we have looked and we've done

lots of researches. But the the reason why I'm saying it was

because I we were a part of a group, yeah, therapy group,

yeah, and, and it was, it was like work. It was work for us

to, like, we couldn't even get to the therapy part, yeah,

because they didn't understand our our, well, it's our

background enough to be able to kind of give us

Yeah, or you're not starting on on a no level plane, no

understanding. So when you're you're sitting there trying to

be like, well, this is what I'm going through. And these are the

feelings that I'm having. They're like, it's really bad.

When you're sitting you're talking to a trained

professional, a trained therapist, and they're like, I

can't even begin to imagine you're going through right now.

I'm like, Are you

the right thing to say? I

saw a black woman on Twitter say that, I

think it was like the day after they burned out the third

precinct in Minneapolis, like, can I ask you some questions

about what I should say to my, like, other black patient? It's

just like, I'm never going back to this therapist.

These are the things that I'm talking about. We I

went to three different people, and I've had three very real

similar situations. And I'm like, I understand that there's

not a book about, you know, treating the black patient, but

can we get like, just a little bit of life, just try.

I feel like right now, just with everything that's going on in

the world, that there needs to be a quantum leap forward in the

amount of money being put towards mental health and social

services and social services.

But it doesn't matter if we get the if we get the mental health

and people are not qualified to treat us like we've been through

so much trauma that you would think just a trauma specialist

would help, but I'm not even quite sure

that was what I was like if like, you know what reparations

I want, I want. I want to, like, a super awesome, trained

therapist that I could talk to forever, like it's like forever,

like she's, like, on speed dial, then we could be like, Hey, I'm

dealing with some stuff right now.

Somebody just called the police on me and say anything, yeah,

let me tell you how I was really feeling.

Oh, we have the other day we had a police person show up here at

our door. Yeah, it wasn't for us. It was for somebody,

somebody in Elson community, but they were asking. Was really

nice guy. Really nice guy asked us questions and was very, you

know, kind of about his delivery of the questions and stuff. But

there was this really. It was standing in my doorway, like,

Hey, how are you doing?

Victor goes, Hi policeman, and

stood in front of him, and he's like, he's like, Wow, you're a

real policeman. Can I see your bad

I was so scared that there was gonna be the conversation that

didn't happen. But, yeah, it was, it was intense. It was

very, kind of

scary. I would like to talking about you. So, yeah, that's

another thing. Is that, you know, you got all these kiddos

that are going through hearing this stuff on the periphery from

their parents and on the news and stuff. And yeah, that's

another thing. Is that we're trying to find ways to explain

it

to and he said, What is your code today? Your blue. Yeah. So

he says he's not black, he's blue or green, and today he's

blue, yeah,

all right. And tomorrow I gotta be

clean, yeah.

So maybe someday we'll live in a post color world where all of us

can be green or purple or orange, kind of like Doug funny.

I would like us to be like that, but you know, right now we're

dealing with that issue of of how some people aren't treated

kindly because of the way that they

look. I teach is missing too.

Yeah, congratulations. Did you what

happened after that?

Well, it was when it was almost out, my mom pulled it

on. Well, she helps you.

Pull it, yeah, put it in jar, yeah. How much money did the two

fairy give you? Three?

$3 yeah. I had a quarter when I was

well, you gotta count for inflation,

50 cent piece.

Well, I mean that I have a zillion more things I would love

to talk about, but it sounds like you have cartoons and jolly

ranchers to get to.

Yeah, I made promises that I have to fulfill.

Communication right now is, is important and difficult, and

yeah, um, but that's kind of what, what we deal with on a day

to day basis, is, how do you make the words say what you're

really thinking,

and that scare people away or stop progress, yeah,

and not lose sight of your your hopeful,

imaginative mission of believe in wonder.

Exactly. How do you take those feelings and make it

something make it something positive

you can find believe in

wonder@believeinwonder.weebly.com and you can find us on Facebook

at hybrid pub Scout, on Twitter at hybrid pub scout and

Instagram, hybrid pubscout pod. Please visit our website,

hybridpubscout.com and while you're there, click join our

troop to get our new guide, the HPS guide to picking your

publishing path. It's totally free, and thanks for giving a

rip about books you

I think.