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Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program.

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latest partner series Beyond the Program.

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and unexpected twist as our alumni

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pair up with their chosen guest.

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Each guest host is a trailblazing

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Think data, product management,

and engineering, all with a keen

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focus on startups and career growth.

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Look out for these bonus episodes

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bridging the gaps between our

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Enjoy.

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Jazmin Furtado: Hello everyone,

and welcome to Frontiers:

15

Exploring the World of Data.

16

Frontiers dives into how people

are using their data science minds

17

to shape organizations and change

the landscape outside of big tech.

18

In each episode, we explore the far

reaching corners of the world of data.

19

My name is Jazmin, and I'm

your host for this series.

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I myself am passionate about

empowering people to make data

21

driven decisions, and I'm always

amazed at how others do it every day.

22

Today, we are exploring the

glaciers of gaming, how data

23

informs and shapes our modern play.

24

It's a world I've always been

curious about, really excited

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to have our guest here.

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Our guest here today, Tuck Ngun,

Principal Insights Analyst at

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Riot Games for League of Legends.

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Before Riot, Tuck held senior

data scientist roles at Oracle and

29

Sense360 after getting his doctorate

from UCLA in human genetics,

30

so he wasn't always in gaming.

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But since he's been at Riot for the last,

you know, five years or so, it seems that

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once he's gotten the gaming bug, he hasn't

looked back, and so we're gonna dive into

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all those details of that in this episode.

34

Um, so, so glad to have

you here today, Tuck.

35

Really excited for our conversation.

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Tuck Ngun: Well, thank

you so much for having me.

37

I'm very excited, too.

38

Jazmin Furtado: So, getting

to our icebreaker today.

39

So, the question is, in relation to

gaming, if you could be a player in a

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game, what player would you be and why?

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So it's just like very vague, so

for me, uh, my player, I don't have

42

too much gaming experience, I will

have to admit, so, uh, my game that

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I grew up playing in like middle

school and high school was Halo.

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I love Halo, uh, just not, it was before

it got into like the real online playing

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mode where you play against other players.

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It was very much just like

campaign mode, or just like me

47

and my brother kind of playing the

story, and I really enjoyed that.

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I'd really just, and on easy, I'll have

to caveat, it had to be on easy mode as

49

well for me to get the full enjoyment.

50

When it got too hard, I'd get really,

uh, Uh, I wouldn't, I'm not that

51

great, so when it got too hard,

it wasn't as enjoyable anymore.

52

So I really like playing Master Chief in

Halo, so I think I'd probably play that.

53

It just seems like, you know, the

player's invincible, I kinda do whatever.

54

Uh, I really love it,

the um, the, the sword.

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It's really cool, cause it

like, lights up, it's all

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glowy, and it's super powerful.

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And I think What differentiates it

from other games is the fact that it's,

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like, there's a lot of space, uh, like,

in the game, and I really, I'm like a

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Star Trek nerd, I really enjoy space,

so I think the setting really kind of

60

drew me in, so I really like that game.

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So that's who I would play if I was in

any game, but Tuck, you have a lot of

62

experience, um, in gaming, so curious

what your, what your player would be.

63

Tuck Ngun: Um, so this, I, I will

have to, this is actually one of

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the, of the questions that you

sent over that I looked, looked at.

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This is one of the hardest

ones, because it's like, oh

66

no, I have to pick my favorite.

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So, so, okay, I'm going to cheat a little

bit and actually have two answers to this.

68

So the first one is kind of much more

developed, it's um, and it's maybe

69

a little bit of a deeper cut, but

it's Ashe from Final Fantasy XII.

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So she's a, basically she's just

an all around badass, right?

71

And so it's much, much more like

an aspirational thing for me.

72

You know, you mentioned, uh, the

setting of Halo and the setting

73

of Final Fantasy XII is definitely

some, a place I would love to be.

74

Um, but Ashe specifically, she's,

like I mentioned, she's uh,

75

sort of like a deposed princess.

76

Everyone thinks she's dead.

77

And she's managed to maintain that for

years, while organizing an underground

78

rebellion, and basically, you know,

overthrowing the evil empire, all

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of that, without blowing her cover.

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So, you know, so far, so fine, so standard

for Final Fantasy, but I think what really

81

sets her apart from a lot of the other,

you know, Uh, protagonist of the series

82

is that she just does it all in stride.

83

She's like, okay, I have to do this thing.

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I'll just go and do it.

85

She's like very, no nonsense.

86

There's no like agonizing

over, am I good enough?

87

Am I, you know, this or that?

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Or she just does it and

it's like really refreshing.

89

So like, I really aspire to

like that sort of level of.

90

I guess you could say competence?

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Confidence?

92

Whichever you choose.

93

Um, and then the second

one is much shorter.

94

And I promise this is not like me

trying to, I guess, promote the game.

95

Because this is not like our newest

character or anything, but Hui from

96

League of Legends, he's a, uh, artist

who has like magical powers and he

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can paint, you know, visions with

his, uh, with his magical brush.

98

Anyway, that, that is totally

like my vibe and something I

99

would love to be able to do.

100

Jazmin Furtado: You gave the characters

so much justice, and here I am, I'm like,

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I just like the fact that it's a sword,

and you like, went into like, their

102

backstory and their character traits,

like, I mean, you obviously, you know,

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you're in the right place, uh, the fact

that there's just so much, I think, like,

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nuance and so much backstory to these

games, uh, that I think the people that

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are in the world can really appreciate.

106

Would you be able to take us into, you

know, how you got into Your current

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role and I talked about what you know

what you're doing at right a little

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bit more and then yeah, tell us a

list of the high level your journey of

109

how you got to there and you know how

it's different from what you've done

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before and kind of what made you stay.

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Tuck Ngun: Yeah, yeah,

would love to do that.

112

Um, so I guess in terms of what

what I do, I'll start with that.

113

Uh, so the scope of my role is.

114

I would say I guess pretty large.

115

So essentially I am able to work

across the league game ecosystem.

116

Um, and I'm starting to also

push into like other parts of it.

117

Um, as you know, um, you know, we,

um, You know, part of the things that

118

Riot is doing is, uh, you know, we

have that, we have a TV show, Arcane.

119

Um, and so, you know, we're, in the

background, we're always, like, looking

120

into new opportunities and stuff, and

I'm very lucky to have had a chance to,

121

you know, work a little bit on those.

122

But my main focus is, is on the game.

123

And, uh, typically, the way it works

at, at Riot, or on League anyway, is

124

that analysts will tend to specialize

in, like, different domains.

125

So, sometimes it might be gameplay.

126

Or monetization.

127

And I'm fortunate enough, I guess,

to be able to essentially, like,

128

pick what I want to, to work on.

129

I mean, it's like a, it's kind of

a really, it's a privilege that

130

I, you know, don't take lightly.

131

I get to kind of go after what are

sort of the most important questions.

132

And so I've been able to work on

things like, oh, you know, um,

133

how do we maintain, how do we grow

our player base, uh, for League.

134

How does a player's interaction with the

game, with Leap, sort of change over time?

135

Because we're very lucky

to have very loyal players.

136

Um, and so, you know, we really want to,

and I think part of that loyalty comes

137

from, you know, just how much we really

value the player experience and try to

138

optimize for that as much as possible.

139

Um, I've also worked in

the monetization space.

140

So, um, I, you know, work on

things like, okay, here's some new

141

content, uh, you know, what's the

best way to distribute it, that,

142

that sort of, that sort of thing.

143

Um, okay.

144

And then in terms of kind of the

background of how I got into this role,

145

um, as, as some of, I guess the listeners

might have realized just based on, you

146

know, I guess my slightly psychotic.

147

Description of why I

picked those characters.

148

I've just been playing

video games my entire life.

149

One of my earliest memories is

actually playing Dig Dug with my mom.

150

Um, at our first like home computer.

151

Anyway, so it's always been a You know,

always been part of my life, um, but for

152

whatever reason, it wasn't until there,

you know, the last five years or so, or

153

five years ago that it kind of occurred

to me of like, oh, I could actually have

154

a career, uh, in data in gaming, right?

155

I mean, it seems so obvious in

retrospect, but for some reason, it

156

just was one of those things that

seemed a little bit impenetrable to me.

157

But I was fortunate enough again

to, to, to know someone who was

158

working at Riot at the time.

159

You know, she said, uh, she brought this

current role, um, to, to my attention.

160

She was like, I think

you'd really like it here.

161

Um, I, I do, I have.

162

And, and so it's, it's just been really

a wonderful experience, you know.

163

And I really, actually truly

enjoyed playing the game as well.

164

So it's like, you know, kind of

win win, uh, in, in that way.

165

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, when I think of,

you know, data and gaming, it seems

166

like something that, uh, it makes sense,

but in terms of actually, like, putting

167

people's faces to, you know, the these

roles, it's like, you don't necessarily.

168

It's more of what goes on

in the background, right?

169

When you think of games, you think of,

like, the players and you think of, you

170

know, they take up, like, the spotlight,

but in terms of, like, all the stuff

171

that goes under, uh, goes under the

hood to, like, improve that experience.

172

I think a lot of, uh, people don't

think of that as, like, oh, there are

173

specific roles that are, you know,

people look to fill to help from, like,

174

a data, um, insights, you know, analysis

perspective, uh, to, to improve the game.

175

And it's, like, something

that's constantly changing.

176

When can you turn?

177

Yeah.

178

Yeah.

179

Tuck Ngun: No, I was just gonna say

it's I think part of it is just how

180

rapidly The industry has matured, right?

181

I mean it used to be I think, you

know people would think of gaming

182

as as like Yeah, I guess like maybe

my parents generation right the idea

183

that someone could have a career in

gaming and that could be something

184

that's They do for for life, right?

185

It was would be kind of ludicrous, right?

186

Um, and so I think because of that,

you know, it's just it wasn't something

187

that that was and coming from Malaysia,

especially where there really wasn't much

188

of a gaming scene until mobile phones,

you know, smartphones really took off.

189

About 10 years ago, right?

190

Again, it was just not maybe part of

the, the, the, the atmosphere part

191

of the Zeitgeist yet at the time.

192

Jazmin Furtado: And you're

saying that it's been growing.

193

I mean, you've been there

for a few years now.

194

Have you seen, like, you're the team

dynamics change in terms of the skills

195

and the people that are like involved

on on projects or the types of projects?

196

Like, how have you seen the

data analytics kind of focus?

197

change from like a people or

like a project perspective

198

since like you've joined?

199

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, no, there's definitely

been, you know, a lot of changes, a lot

200

of development at Riot specifically.

201

Um, but I think, yeah, also

as you're alluding to, right,

202

more generally, uh, in games.

203

So I'll just start, I guess, by talking

about how, you know, my experience so far.

204

Um, so Riot's grown quite a

bit over, over my time here.

205

And along with that growth, you know, in

all of our departments, uh, our Insights

206

organization has also grown and Insights

is where data analysts at Riot, uh, you

207

know, that sort of are like our home

base, if you will, our home department.

208

Um, and so the way it works, uh,

here is that each game typically

209

has like a dedicated Insights team.

210

Some analysts and then also

some researchers, you know, who,

211

who, who are able to, you know,

talk to our players directly.

212

So the exact breakdown kind of

depends on the game, uh, depends on

213

the game's needs, that sort of thing.

214

And the size of the team also

changes depending again on the game.

215

But generally speaking, we're, it's

like five to 15 people per, per game.

216

Um, and then we also have some central

resources that, that we can tap into.

217

I think the other thing that, that's

changed, uh, over, you know, that

218

I've noticed, And that's changed in

my time here is that it's not just

219

the growth in the number of people.

220

I would say it's also the skill sets

and the way, you know, in general, we

221

think about data and how to use it.

222

It's definitely kind of gotten

more sophisticated over time.

223

So part of this is just people

like myself, maybe who have been

224

around for a couple of years.

225

So we've had the time

to develop those skills.

226

Um, to, to learn more, um, but I

think it's also part of it is we

227

are more conscious about and maybe

more knowledgeable about, like,

228

who we want to bring in, right?

229

So, it's like, we're starting to

recognize that, okay, yes, data

230

analysts, you know, we're quite, a lot

of us are actually quite versatile,

231

but at the same time, you know, um,

there's also like a little bit of

232

specialization that can, that can go on.

233

And, you know, if you have a

specific need, right, like, If

234

you can get someone who has a lot

of experience doing that thing,

235

it's really beneficial.

236

And then if you need them to be more of

a generous later, they can kind of learn.

237

The other stuff, get

better at it over time.

238

Right.

239

But yeah, having having someone

who spikes in particular areas,

240

particularly when you have a need for it.

241

I think that that that awareness

has definitely grown a lot.

242

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, you're you're

saying that there were, you know, there's

243

a lot of different things that you can.

244

Provide insight into, you know, a lot

of, uh, ways that you can, like, a lot

245

of, a lot of different data points.

246

I guess you can analyze and there's

different areas that you could affect.

247

There's like a business aspect

and also like the actual game.

248

I want to I'm actually curious

from, like, looking at, you know,

249

improving the gaming experience.

250

Do you have, like, any, like, uh, you

know, stories or any sort of, like,

251

projects you've worked on or anything

that really stands out to you as,

252

you know, really, you know, The most

prominent things that you've enjoyed,

253

um, working on since you've been in

like the gaming industry, like certain

254

questions or insights that you're

able to derive or certain questions

255

you're trying to get after just

curious if anything stands out to you.

256

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, I, I would say, yes, no.

257

So, so I alluded or I just

mentioned earlier that 1 of the.

258

Things I, I've been, I've worked on

and it's kind of an ongoing thing.

259

So it's never really done actually is.

260

Kind of understanding.

261

You know how our players evolve as they,

you know, continue engaging with our

262

game continue interacting with it It's

it's quite I you know, I like i'm gonna

263

sound like a broken record here But like

I said, I feel very privileged right that

264

we have such loyal players and it's just

really interesting to You know see how

265

again how how they how to It's almost

like how the, how the game fits into

266

their lives, like, it changes over time,

right, from, and you can kind of imagine

267

this, you know, in, in many scenarios,

right, of like, you know, if you get into

268

a new hobby, you know, you, uh, you know,

you, you sort of engage with it one way,

269

but then over time, right, it changes.

270

And so, for us, we feel like League,

because League has been around for so

271

long, you know, we are able to, like,

kind of envision our relationship with the

272

player in that way of, like, this is not

just, you know, like, a one time thing,

273

or something that you're just going to

engage in, engage with for a few weeks,

274

and then move on to something else, right?

275

Like, we are very much, I guess,

focused on the long term, Um, which, I

276

am in very much in favor of, but also

because of that, it actually makes a

277

lot of things not as straightforward,

you know, and I'll give like maybe a

278

little bit more of a concrete example.

279

So like, um, You know, in addition to,

like I said, working on understanding

280

how a player sort of interaction

evolves, like one, one, and one other

281

way in which I think this focus on

the long term manifest is like how we

282

think about creating cosmetic content

for the characters in our game.

283

So basically, one of the things that

League is known for is we sell, you

284

know, you can buy skins for the different

characters in the game, essentially

285

like alternate versions of them.

286

And, you know, if we were focused on the

short term, I think it would be very easy.

287

Actually, that process would be much

easier because we could just focus

288

purely on revenue maximization.

289

It would be very easy.

290

It's just like, okay, here's

the most popular character.

291

They're getting a skin, you

know, every six months, right?

292

Like, and, and, you know, it

doesn't matter if we kind of like

293

churn through or burn through like

this, the creative space, if you

294

will, for that character, right?

295

Because we're just

focused on the short term.

296

We just want to maximize revenue.

297

But because we want to cultivate that

long, sort of long lasting relationship,

298

you know, we're trying to think in

terms of like years and in some cases

299

decades, that's much harder, but

at least in terms of years, right?

300

So we're much more conscious about,

okay, we just released a, you know, we

301

just released a new skin, a new piece

of content for, for this character.

302

So therefore, you know,

let's wait a bit, right?

303

So that we don't burn

out our players so that.

304

You know, we don't go, you know,

like, just burn through, again,

305

all of the options that, that,

that we know of right now, right?

306

To give ourselves time to, you

know, develop new things, to really

307

be thoughtful and considerate

about how we go about, you know,

308

running the game essentially.

309

So that permeates, like, everything we do.

310

Which, like I said, I'm very

much in favor of, but it can make

311

things a little bit complicated.

312

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, I, there's

so many things you said there in

313

terms of like, you know, you want

to, and it's, it's a partnership,

314

you know, you and the, the players.

315

I mean, it, you, you don't

want to take their loyalty.

316

You never want to take that for granted.

317

And so you, you're You have to be

very thoughtful about the things

318

that you introduce into the game.

319

You can't just like throw a bunch of

experiments out there and just expect

320

that your, your customer or your player

is just gonna be like, okay, that's fine.

321

Because, you know, you have a

brand, you have a story, like,

322

each of those characters, people

are very invested in them.

323

And that's really like this.

324

The whole game is centered

around these characters.

325

So

326

when you're trying to make these

decisions, though, in terms of, like,

327

what to improve, what things to introduce,

how do you go about making that decision?

328

Like, what it, when, you know, when,

when people, people probably have a lot

329

of ideas about what they want to do to

enhance the game, but how do you decide

330

what actually gets put in front of, you

know, in front of the players or not?

331

Tuck Ngun: Oh, that's a very,

very interesting question.

332

Um, and, and I think in the context of.

333

Well, any, any creative industry, right?

334

It, uh, like it's, it's kind of

interesting to think about, um, as

335

someone who's kind of more on the data

side, right, to think about how those

336

two spheres interact, because I think

it's really easy to see them as being

337

in conflict with each other, right?

338

Because gaming, for instance,

right, is, is definitely a creative

339

industry person foremost, right?

340

Um, like, uh, we, you know, it's all

about kind of, I think trying to, Like,

341

everyone in the gaming industry, right,

is trying to create something that's new,

342

something that's never been seen before.

343

And, and, and, it's, you know,

but, and so the creative side

344

is definitely really important.

345

But, you know, especially when you're

talking about, okay, the scale of a

346

game like League of Legends, or like

a Fortnite, or, you know, things at

347

that level, right, where you have a

global audience, You, you have literally

348

millions of players that, that you're

trying to, that you, that you're

349

trying to like serve the creativity.

350

I think that creative drive is an

important part of the equation,

351

but I think it can't be the only

thing in that equation, right?

352

Similarly, if you just took the data

side and you said, okay, we're just

353

going to, you know, we're completely like

base all of our decisions off of that.

354

I think that's also a failing, right?

355

And so I think one thing I've seen at

Riot, um, and even at the best game

356

companies is that there tends to be a

very kind of healthy sort of like back

357

and forth, you know, I, I, the word

that comes to mind is tension, but I

358

don't mean that in a bad way, right?

359

I just think there's a healthy dialogue, a

healthy conversation between the two sides

360

where, you know, it's, we, we, we try to

come together and, and, and, And try not

361

to, I guess, impose our will or act like

we're the ultimate source of truth, right?

362

So to go back to the, you know, to

give a more concrete example, going

363

back to like, um, that, that whole

question about skins of like, okay.

364

Which character should maybe get like

a sci fi themed one or a fantasy,

365

more fantasy themed one or more

of a realistic, you know, themed

366

sort of alternate version, right?

367

And a lot of those cases,

right, we do rely heavily on.

368

You know, our designers are

artists to, to, to have that sort

369

of creative vision to say like,

okay, I think this is why it works.

370

Right.

371

And then we, uh, on the data

side, you know, we try to.

372

Back it up with with with like

our, you know, by analyzing player

373

behavior, you know, we also Uh, like

I mentioned we have researchers.

374

So so we often also directly just talk

to players You know, we do concept

375

testing all of that sort of stuff so

that you know We we have a fuller picture

376

if you will behind any decision That

we make and again that extends also

377

to a lot of gameplay decisions, right?

378

We A lot of it is driven, I would say,

primarily by, by our designers, by

379

our producers, but you know, we, we

don't just go like on instinct, right?

380

We try to, I guess, like, sort of

balance it as much as possible.

381

Jazmin Furtado: How do you get, you know,

the, how do you get feedback on that?

382

I'm sure it depends on, you know, the

project and what you're introducing,

383

but can you give an example of how

you know that you've done a good job?

384

Because, you know, to what

you're saying before, there's.

385

Maximize revenue and then you could

just, you know, in the short term, but

386

when you're thinking about a longterm

approach that you said, you know, your,

387

your team's taking and riot takes just

generally to, um, this game, it's not

388

always, you know, success is not always

just what you see in the short term.

389

And so how do you know that

you're on the right track?

390

Like, how do you, like what feedback

levers do you leverage in order to

391

know if you, if you're on the right,

yeah, if you're on the right track.

392

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, no, as I sort of alluded

to earlier, that is kind of one of the

393

complications, right, of sort of this

longer term view, which is, it's, it's,

394

you know, it's a little bit at odds,

I think, with kind of how just modern

395

business operates in general, right,

where there's more of a, as like focus

396

on the immediate, on the shorter term.

397

And so for us, the way we try to balance

it is we, we do have, you know, metrics

398

or we do look at different measures.

399

In the short term, right?

400

To, to, to say like, okay, was this a

new, uh, you know, new game play change

401

or this new piece of cosmetic content?

402

Was this a success, you know,

in this first, let's say, week,

403

two weeks, first month, right?

404

Kind of that shorter term, just,

just so we can get a signal.

405

But then oftentimes, we'll also try

to, you know, adopt, like, Go, go.

406

We, we do a lot of like, try, try and get

like a longer term view of things of like,

407

okay, six months ago we, we did this.

408

Right?

409

Do we see any like signals,

whether it's, uh, in terms of

410

the, the player behavior, right?

411

Which is kind of maybe more,

more my domain or when we like

412

in terms of sentiment, right?

413

When we talk directly to players,

whether it's in focus groups or

414

surveys, that, that sort of thing.

415

Like do we see.

416

Any evidence that maybe this is, you

know, kind of performance as expected,

417

good, bad, that kind of thing.

418

So we're constantly trying to,

you know, kind of, again, get a

419

more like balanced view of things,

right, a more holistic view.

420

But it can be challenging, because

especially with the longer term

421

stuff, you know, this is a, so League

is like, is a live game, right?

422

It's a live service game, which

means it gets updates every day.

423

Basically every two weeks, at least.

424

And so there's things

changing all the time.

425

So if you're like, well, we had

this thing six months ago, let's

426

try and see if it has any effect.

427

You know, it does get kind of complicated,

but, you know, we try to do our best.

428

Jazmin Furtado: So usually, you know,

your focus area is on player behavior.

429

How do you quantify Player behavior.

430

Is it just like how much time they're

spending in the, you know, how much time

431

they're spending playing, how much time

they're spending like actively playing?

432

I don't know if that's, you know,

a thing, but, um, is it like

433

the, I mean, the number of times

that they're changing characters?

434

Like what, how do you quantify behavior?

435

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, it's well, so we try

to, well, as you just, as you just,

436

you know, described, there's a lot

of different axes, a lot of different

437

vectors that, that we consider.

438

And, you know, it just, which ones we look

at, right, really depends on the question,

439

the use case, the project at hand.

440

We, you know, as a, uh, we, we do have,

like, new characters every so often, and

441

so, like, one thing we are interested

in is trying to see, like, okay,

442

when we do introduce a new character,

right, how do our players, uh, react?

443

You know, are there things

that, that, that we can improve?

444

learn from, you know, are we able to

like change preferences almost, or are

445

people kind of like they found their

favorite and they stick with it forever.

446

And you know, maybe they'll try

out this, this, this new, this new

447

character, but you know, eventually

they'll, they'll go back right

448

to, to the, to the old favorite.

449

And so, so we, you know, so

we, we try to understand things

450

like that, you know, for sure.

451

We look at, as, as you mentioned,

like how, how often someone

452

is playing, how many hours.

453

Because that is actually one of the,

uh, signals, actually one of the most

454

important signals we think for, was

this change a good one or not, right?

455

Um, because the, the, with the obvious

idea being, okay, if this wasn't

456

something that our players liked, you

know, they would stop engaging with

457

our game as much or, or completely.

458

Um, so, so it is a tricky thing.

459

And then, as I mentioned, you know, a

lot of times we are also interested not

460

just in, It's sort of quantifying, per

se, but like, uh, kind of understanding,

461

right, their, their, their evolution and

kind of how they, they view the game.

462

And that, that is actually a, it's a very

challenging area, but it's also really,

463

I think, rewarding because, uh, It just

kind of gives you like, you know, we,

464

we, everyone has like assumptions right

around like, oh, here's how, um, someone

465

will, will, will think of the game or

how this game fits into their lives,

466

you know, if they've been playing for

two years or three years or four years.

467

And then, as we kind of dig into it,

a lot of the times we find things

468

that challenge those assumptions.

469

And then that feeds back directly into

like, okay, where, you know, where

470

do we want to take the game next?

471

What do we think is a good change?

472

You know, what, what, what do we

think this is telling us about

473

what our players needs are?

474

Right?

475

And I'd say that's very rewarding

because like, ultimately that's what

476

we are here to do, I would say, right?

477

We want to kind of meet

those needs as best we can.

478

Jazmin Furtado: Because I'm, uh, You know,

thinking about it from like an analytics

479

point of view, when you're thinking

about like the, the, the questions that

480

you're trying to answer, you know, some

of these things I could see as like,

481

okay, it's a basic, it's, it's looking

at, you know, statistics, looking at,

482

you know, the before and after, do we

see like maybe a significantly, you know,

483

a significant change or statistically

significant difference between the two.

484

When we think of analytics generally

though, it could be, I guess

485

that the term can be very broad.

486

You know, you can leverage, you know,

machine learning techniques and to

487

like, if you want to do like sentiment

analysis, like, do you, do you kind of.

488

How, like pick from the whole gamut

of methodologies when it comes to

489

like answering some of these questions

you have about, you know, what, what

490

steps to next take with the game.

491

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, yeah.

492

We, we do, we try to keep

as open to mind as possible.

493

Right.

494

And, and you know, it's, it, it

really what the, I guess the sort

495

of the best technique or the best

methodology really depends on.

496

The question you're trying to answer and

kind of the context around it, right?

497

So, um, to give you like an extreme

example, you know, if, if, if there

498

was, uh, like an emergent thing, right.

499

Or where, where we needed to, like,

get an answer to, to something really

500

quickly, like within a few days, right.

501

Probably spinning up like a

whole ML model from scratch.

502

Not, not the best idea, right.

503

Just because of how much time.

504

You know, that takes right, um,

even if that might be sort of the

505

technically the best way to do it.

506

Right?

507

So it's kind of all about balancing like,

um, what, what, what the needs are and

508

then sort of having in your back pocket,

like, knowledge of like, what, you know,

509

what, what, what are the best techniques?

510

What's the best approach to deploy here?

511

Um, and I think I kind of want to kind of

add a little bit of an addendum to that,

512

which is not to say that as an analyst.

513

You know, you have to know every

single thing out there, right?

514

Um, but it's more about getting I

guess familiarity with at least a wide

515

enough range of different Techniques

different methodologies so that when

516

you do get a question, you know when

you get a problem to work on You know,

517

you're able to and based on a context

you're able to kind of select the

518

best thing Uh, for, for that project.

519

Right?

520

Um, like another example might be if

you need the output from, uh, some

521

modeling to be interpretable, right?

522

To be like understandable so

that you can take action on it.

523

Uh, again, something that's quite

sophisticated, like something like

524

setting up a neural network, right?

525

Might, might be technically

the best way to do it.

526

But oftentimes that comes at the

expense of that interpretability part,

527

right, of that ability to like kind

of take action on what you find or

528

understand why something is happening.

529

And so you might go with actually

a simpler model, um, and there's

530

nothing wrong with that because You

know, it's all about what is the

531

best thing for for this purpose.

532

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, I like that

interoperability part because I think when

533

you're dealing with, you know, trying to

incorporate or introduce like new things

534

to such like a wide reaching population,

you really want to make sure that.

535

You, you know, you take the whole team

to make a decision on something, so you

536

wanna make sure you can like, explain it.

537

Well, you can like, you know, justify

the, the proposal based off of something

538

that they could understand as well.

539

So I can see that, you know, simpler can

be better in a lot of these cases to get

540

your message across and to get buy-in.

541

Uh, and then also to be able to like

show over time that it's, you know.

542

It's doing what it's supposed to be doing,

or like, you know, it's still you can

543

still apply the same methodology over

time, and it's not going to be too broken.

544

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, exactly.

545

Exactly.

546

Jazmin Furtado: So I wanted to close out

this main part by just asking, you know,

547

you've been in this industry for a few

years now, as you look kind of towards.

548

The future.

549

Are you seeing, like, from your

vantage point, you know, some emerging

550

trends or emerging, like, areas that,

you know, are growing, um, when it

551

comes to, like, data and gaming?

552

Tuck Ngun: Uh, yeah, for, for sure.

553

So I think, you know, so just generally

speaking, data is, you know, really,

554

A big part of really important part

of the gaming industry, and I think

555

it's just going to grow from here on.

556

And so there's sort of like to serve

overlapping trends, but they're

557

still kind of a little bit distinct.

558

Um, so, so the 1st 1 is that, um.

559

The, the main way, actually, or

increasingly, uh, common way,

560

uh, that people sort of, like,

purchase games now is online, right?

561

So, like, you, I don't know if

you're, like, familiar with Steam,

562

uh, Epic Games has their own

platform, for instance, right?

563

There was a whole series

of court cases about that.

564

Anyway, um, so, so, so,

so that's one part of it.

565

And then I think as a result of

that, right, uh, and especially as,

566

like, consoles, for instance, have

also gained, um, the ability to,

567

you know, connect to the internet.

568

Like, that online, a lot of games

that, that in the past might not

569

have had an online component, right,

increasingly, um, kind of have it now,

570

right, whether or not it's sort of

like part of the core, uh, gameplay.

571

So, like, one good example of this, I

would say is, The Dark Souls series,

572

which is, I won't go into what it

is, but essentially, the, the core

573

of the game, you know, you could,

you could play it, like, completely

574

offline, but there's a comp, uh, sort

of an optional online part to it,

575

um, that does enrich the experience.

576

And that, again, that's just

becoming more and more common.

577

Uh, among games, right?

578

So, so like, I'm, I'm pretty, you know,

I don't work for Bandai Namco, which

579

publishes that, that series, I can't say

for sure, but, uh, you know, I'm, I'm

580

pretty sure there's, you know, they're,

they're, you know, trying to get as

581

rich of a data set as they can, right?

582

From, from those games, from the, from

when players choose to engage with

583

the online portions of those games.

584

Um, so that's trend number one.

585

Um, and then the second one I would say

is kind of a more of a focus, more of

586

a move of a lot of publishers towards

prioritizing live services games.

587

So that's games like League, uh, Fortnite,

uh, Guild Wars 2, where essentially it's

588

supposed to be alive, if you will, right.

589

Have a lot of support, have

consistent, frequent updates.

590

Uh, for, for years on end, um, and now

that I've had firsthand experience working

591

in that, in this, you know, in that, in

that sort of gaming sphere, um, it's,

592

it's actually, it's really tricky, right?

593

It's, uh, God, what's that saying?

594

You know, um, the, the trick is not to

get there, it's maintaining it, right?

595

Or it's like, you know, sort of

staying at, at, at your position.

596

And I think that's, that's, you

know, one of the reasons why data

597

is just becoming so important.

598

Because maintaining sort of, um, you

know, if you are success, lucky enough

599

to have like a successful live service

game, like kind of maintaining that.

600

Um, it's really difficult, you know,

it's, I would say it's practically

601

impossible without kind of good data.

602

Um, and even with good data,

like I said, it's, it can be

603

quite challenging, but it's fine.

604

Jazmin Furtado: So you're seeing

yourself, you know, and at least another

605

5 years, you know, it's been good so far.

606

So there's no reason for

you to look elsewhere.

607

It seems like the future is bright.

608

Tuck Ngun: Um, I think so.

609

I mean, I, yeah, I mean, despite, you

know, I guess the, you know, of course,

610

you know, it would be remiss of me not

to, um, I guess, acknowledge, right,

611

that the gaming industry has had, um, a

whole bunch of layoffs, you know, this

612

year, especially, including Riot, right?

613

I, I think it over, you know, a part

of that, I think, is, uh, You know,

614

maybe sort of, like, correcting

for, for, like, Covid, right?

615

Um, I, I think it was hard to understand

exactly how to respond to, to that boom.

616

Um, uh, uh, so that's part of it.

617

But, but yeah, overall, I do think,

um, it is, it is quite, quite a, you

618

know, bright future for the industry.

619

I do think it will, You know, this,

I think this is a little bit of a

620

bump, but in a few years time, you

know, we'll, we'll be back on track.

621

Jazmin Furtado: Online gaming is like, you

know, just becoming ever so popular and

622

just everyone's becoming more and more,

you know, everyone's getting online more.

623

Everyone's like, more, more connected

without comes more data than with

624

that because more opportunity.

625

So, um, thanks for thanks for bringing

it, giving us some insight into that.

626

Uh, we usually, so we usually end

our episodes with this round of fact

627

or fiction, so we're going to like

rapid fire through these questions.

628

Um, so I found these about games

just in general, and I want,

629

so you're not supposed to know

the answer to these, hopefully.

630

Um, alright, so number one.

631

South Korea has the highest

penetration of online gaming, with 96.

632

4 percent of internet users

playing games across all devices.

633

Tuck Ngun: That one, I'm, well,

I, I don't know if the number is

634

completely correct, but I would say

generally, you know, the sort of

635

the, yes, I would say that's a fact.

636

Jazmin Furtado: So that is false.

637

So Indonesia has the highest

penetration of online gaming with 96.

638

5 percent of internet users playing games.

639

And then Philippines a second and

then Turkey is third and then South

640

Korea wasn't even on like that list.

641

Tuck Ngun: Oh, interesting.

642

Well, I guess.

643

Yeah.

644

Actually, I think one of the

things is, yeah, like you, you,

645

you mentioned earlier, right?

646

Mobile has really changed actually a lot.

647

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah.

648

Across like, yeah, across all devices.

649

So I was just really, I was

like, Oh, that's surprising.

650

I was expecting it to be like Japan

or China or something like that.

651

But no, yeah.

652

Second one.

653

Uno is the most popular

card game in the world.

654

Tuck Ngun: I'm going to say

655

false.

656

Jazmin Furtado: That is correct.

657

That is false.

658

So poker is the most popular

card game in the world.

659

Blackjack is close.

660

It's the most popular casino

card game in the world.

661

And then, you know, solitaire and

rummy are also like very popular.

662

Uno was not on that list, but

I think a lot of people think

663

of it as like really popular.

664

But worldwide, it's, you got

to go back to the classics.

665

All right.

666

Yeah.

667

Makes sense.

668

Third one.

669

You're, you're one for two.

670

So third one.

671

About 50 percent of video game

players in the world are female.

672

Tuck Ngun: Oh, this is a good one.

673

Um, I think if yes, I would say it,

it's probably quite close to that.

674

If you, especially when

you consider mobile gaming.

675

Jazmin Furtado: Yes, that is true.

676

Yeah.

677

And you also consider like

puzzle games or like action

678

adventure games, like all that.

679

So I didn't think about it.

680

I was like, Oh, when I think of video

games, I think of, you know, the ones

681

that you see that are most popular.

682

You know?

683

Like, Yeah.

684

You know, League of Legends, World of

Warcraft, I just think of, like, all those

685

ones and a lot of the players I see on the

stage are all, like, men, um, but yeah,

686

so I guess when you look at it from, like,

a wide lens, I was surprised about that.

687

All right, so you got two.

688

All right, the fourth one.

689

The longest board game in the

world is estimated to take

690

1, 500 hours to complete.

691

Tuck Ngun: Oh, jeez, I feel

like I should know this one.

692

Um, 1, 500, I'm gonna say

693

How do you even put in 1, 500 hours?

694

Jazmin Furtado: So this is true.

695

So yeah, so the game is called the

campaign for North Africa, which I'd

696

never heard of before, but apparently

when they look at like how long it

697

takes to complete the full board game

is it's estimated to take 1, 500 hours.

698

So.

699

If you, like, worked on it, basically,

like, three hours a month, or three

700

hours, like, twice a month, or something

like that, like, it would take, like,

701

20 years to complete it, basically.

702

Like, it's ridiculous.

703

It's, I don't, I don't know.

704

Whoever has, if anyone has that game,

like, I, that's, that's a marathon.

705

Yeah,

706

Tuck Ngun: I'll have to look it up.

707

Jazmin Furtado: Okay, the last one.

708

The Jenga Tower, are you, you're

familiar with Jenga, correct?

709

Yeah.

710

So the Jenga tower is 18 layers tall.

711

So just like, just normally each

layer consists of three blocks.

712

Now the tallest Jenga tower ever built,

like in a game was 40 layers tall.

713

Tuck Ngun: Uh, let me think, is that even,

714

Jazmin Furtado: I know you got

to think, is it possible, right?

715

I'm just

716

Tuck Ngun: trying to

like math it out, right.

717

I've like, there, there are enough,

sorry, 18 times three, right.

718

There are just enough pieces

that if you did it like one.

719

You know, sort of like one block per

layer, you could probably get there.

720

Would it, would you actually

be able to do that in reality?

721

Um, seeing, well, I guess if you're

really skilled, I'm going to say

722

true, because people can sometimes

do really surprising things.

723

Jazmin Furtado: Yes, that's true.

724

That's correct.

725

It is true.

726

So I think like 40, there was one

place I found that was like 44 and

727

some of one place that was like 40.

728

So I'm just going to like, you know,

that's, that's really impressive.

729

I don't know how people do that,

but yeah, it's like, I guess if it's

730

just like one block, it'd be like

54, you know, 54 layers, but you

731

know, how often, how can you do that?

732

So, yeah, so it's, um, Yeah, so

yeah, so we got three out of five.

733

Oh, so that's a great.

734

Yeah, that's a great score.

735

That's a great score.

736

I think that's like, these are all

just like, you know, blind stuff.

737

And I just think it's really interesting

to learn about some stuff because I'm

738

like, I didn't know this stuff about.

739

Games just generally.

740

So the more, you know,

741

Tuck Ngun: yeah, I know for sure.

742

I mean, I learned two things today

743

Jazmin Furtado: and I'm sure

everyone listening learned

744

a lot more, including me.

745

So I think as long as it's beneficial

on both sides, I'm glad to hear that.

746

Well, it's been a pleasure to chat

with you today and even just scratch

747

the surface of data and gaming.

748

I feel like there was just so much

more we could have talked about.

749

I'm so much more I was interested in.

750

So I probably will like follow up on.

751

Another like coffee chat

just to casually about this.

752

Um, and also I need to be able

to visit you sometime at the,

753

at riot, just to check it out.

754

Tuck Ngun: Yeah.

755

Yeah.

756

No, you're, you're always welcome.

757

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah.

758

You're like, just, just talking about

even that, that one use case, like, you

759

know, but with the skins, it's just, just

really highlights all the like intention

760

and work that goes behind just making a

seamless and enjoyable user experience.

761

And so for those listening, whenever you

pick up a game, just think of all this,

762

all of the, you know, intention that

goes behind every part of that game.

763

Um, I really come to appreciate that

a lot more, so thanks for taking

764

the time to be with us and just

like letting us, you know, peek

765

into that window into your world.

766

Tuck Ngun: Yeah, no, thank you so much for

having me this this was a blast really was

767

Jazmin Furtado: and today

was actually bittersweet.

768

This actually rounds out

our frontiers mini series.

769

Um, it's been such a delight to hold

host the series on The Pair Program.

770

And it definitely wouldn't

have been possible without

771

the support encouragement.

772

Of Tim, Tim Winkler and the Hatch IT team.

773

Thank you for your sponsorship and

for allowing for both myself and then

774

all everyone listening to continue

exploring new frontiers and to learn

775

from amazing people such as Tuck.

776

And, um, and last, certainly never least

to those who have tuned in, whether you're

777

a new traveler with us, you know, on this

last episode or more experienced Explorer

778

who's been with us since the beginning,

you have my sincerest gratitude.

779

We've, we've never, we're never

done exploring just generally.

780

Everyone always has something

to learn from others.

781

So I hope you're able to take, you

know, your nuggets of knowledge and get,

782

gain new information from this series.

783

I knew it was a value add to your life.

784

And so from one data enthusiast to

another, thank you and take care.

785

Tim Winkler: Calling all

startup technologists.

786

Have you ever dreamed of hosting your own

podcast, but don't know where to start?

787

Well, here's your chance to shine.

788

We're thrilled to introduce Beyond the

Program, our exclusive mini series,

789

and we want you to be a part of it.

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