Shownotes
How do women’s sports make (lots and lots of) money — without losing their fans or...selling out? Or, screw it, should the make as much money as they can?
This week, Kelly and Sara dig into the money talk — from WNBA labor negotiations and shifting fan dynamics to what happens when women’s sports finally start cashing big checks. How much do female athletes *deserve* to be paid? And can they make more and more money without alienating their fans? How?
But first — what we loved in women’s sports this week:
- The New York City Marathon: Hellen Obiri smashed the course record in 2:19:55 and a record 59,226 runners crossed the line, making it the biggest marathon in history. Are we in a running boom, or a chasing bucket lists boom?
- And, India wins their first-ever Cricket World Cup! At home. Against undefeated Australia. After an ugly start to the tournament and a wave of online misogyny. This comeback win was massive, a long time coming, and will change the game forever.
And the epic record-breaking $13.8 million prize purse brings us to this week’s big question: How much do women deserve to be paid?
Sara starts by breaking down the WNBA’s ongoing contract negotiations — with players pushing for a guaranteed share of league revenue instead of just a higher salary cap. And then we dive into the weeds of women's sports finances: Right now, fans often identify more with players than teams — but will that stay true as female athletes earn more and more? At what point does a (historically) socially conscious fan base turn against a (fundamentally) capitalist enterprise? If a large portion of your fandom doesn't believe billionaires should exist, then is it even possible to create billionaire athletes and league owners off those fans? Can that new model be built?
Send us your answers in a voice memo to [email protected]
And we close with our Feisty Picks of the Week.
Time Stamps
0:02 - The record-breaking New York Marathon
8:35 - Make it a movie: India wins their first-ever Cricket World Cup
14:45 - How much should women get paid?
26:00 - Balancing making bank and doing good
35:38 - Sponsors and women's sports fans
46:55 - Our predictions for the future of that women's sports growth curve
47:40 - Feisty Picks of the Week
Subscribe to The Feist, our Free Weekly Newsletter covering Women's Sports: https://feisty.co/feistnews/
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Transcripts
Feisties.
Speaker A:This is your favorite and feistiest women's sports show.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:What's happening in your favorite sports is happening.
Speaker A:I'm Kelly o'.
Speaker A:Meara.
Speaker B:And I'm Sarah Gross.
Speaker B:And this week, how do women's sports make money without making so much money that their fans don't like them anymore?
Speaker B:I mean, is it even possible?
Speaker B:And Kelly, by the end of this show, no Kay answered, done, episode over.
Speaker B:But like, okay, one of my goals for this episode, Kelly, is that I want every listener to fully understand, like the WNBA collective bargaining agreement situation that's going on, what's at stake for the players, what's at stake for the league and the future of women's sports broadly.
Speaker A:Oh, do you just understand that by the end of the season?
Speaker A:I just want you to understand that promise.
Speaker B:That's yes, I'm happy to make it right here, right now.
Speaker A:All right, so all of that coming up today.
Speaker A:But first, what we loved in sports this week.
Speaker A:I'm going to go with the New York marathon to start.
Speaker A:I know last week I was joking.
Speaker A:Can marathons get bigger and bigger forever and ever?
Speaker A:And I guess the answer is at least for one more year, cuz this was 59,226 finishers.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:That's insane.
Speaker B:It's impossible to get your brain around.
Speaker B:You know, just like that number of people on the start line.
Speaker A:I was like, that is more people than live in my town.
Speaker A:I think my town is like 57,000 people.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I never thought of it that way.
Speaker A:I still have this question of is it a running boom or is it a like bucket list events boom or is it no boom at all and just a coincidence.
Speaker B:Discuss, discuss.
Speaker A:No, I started to cough and I went to get some water.
Speaker A:You were just like waiting for the answer to that.
Speaker B:I was like, is it, what is it?
Speaker B:Well, first of all, before we discuss, I do think that Helen Oberi.
Speaker B:Did I say that right?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B: Won in two: Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And the first three women were all under the old course record.
Speaker A:Um, she was the first woman ever under 2:20 in New York.
Speaker A:Cause New York's not, if you've run it, it's not super fast.
Speaker A:This is not like a Berlin or a Chicago, which is where you go to kind of like run fast.
Speaker A:Fast times.
Speaker A:Um, it's a little hilly, can be hot.
Speaker A:It has 59,000 other people to deal with.
Speaker B:Um, well, and yeah, back to your original question.
Speaker B:I do think like we've even noticed it with feisty is like people are more interested in.
Speaker B:In life, real events, things happening.
Speaker B:Like, people are, like, attending things out in the world more than ever.
Speaker B:Like, back to.
Speaker B:I think probably bigger than this is just a guess, but bigger than, like, pre Covid numbers.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So it doesn't surprise me that an event like the New York Marathon is getting so many people.
Speaker A:Well, there was also this thing happening coming out of the pandemic that was like bucket list vacations, right?
Speaker A:Like, kind of like people wanted to do the things that were on their list that before they would never able.
Speaker A:Like, whatever that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Go to Antarctica.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a big bucket list.
Speaker A:But, you know, like, smaller bucket list would be like, go to Venice, do the New York marathon.
Speaker A:Like, things that are.
Speaker A:That you've been wanting.
Speaker A:So my.
Speaker A:So the question I have is sort of like, is this a trend that then, like, we're going to get out of the bucket list?
Speaker A:Because, like, we all know the economy is collapsing.
Speaker A:We were just talking about this.
Speaker A:So, like, is everyone kind of like, oh, my God, I gotta do the things before I can't do the things anymore, and this is gonna dry up in a little while.
Speaker B:I don't think so.
Speaker B:I think that's you.
Speaker A:No, no, no, no, no, it is not.
Speaker A:Because we were just talking about women's participation triathlon going down because the economy is bad.
Speaker B:Yes, but.
Speaker B:Okay, yes, the part I was.
Speaker B:I agree with that, and we are gonna talk about that later.
Speaker B:The thing that I.
Speaker B:The thing that I was disagreeing on is that, like, I don't think people, like, necessarily preempt that stuff very much.
Speaker B:Like, maybe some people, but I don't think people are like, oh, I'm gonna go out and do this now before the sky falls.
Speaker A:In all fairness, I think your news is different than our news.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:That's actually true.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker B:Our news headlines, right?
Speaker A:Our news headlines are like, yeah, maybe I should buy all my Christmas presents right now before.
Speaker A:And I just, like, drop some baby donations off at, like, the bank.
Speaker A:And they're desperate, right?
Speaker A:Like, it's definitely, like, it's shifting.
Speaker A:So my point anyway is, though, is this a bucket list boom where people want to, like, they do want to get out, do real things, touch grass, be.
Speaker A:Or is this a running boom?
Speaker A:Because everyone keeps calling it a running boom.
Speaker A:That's like, run clubs are booming.
Speaker A:Running's booming.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:A friend was just at the Chicago Marathon a couple weeks ago, and he said, like, he's been to the Chicago Marathon seven or eight years in a row.
Speaker A:And he was at this.
Speaker A:And he goes to the same spots every year.
Speaker A:And he was like, this year in this spot where normally there's no one.
Speaker A:It was like packed.
Speaker A:So there is more people.
Speaker A:So you're like, what?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I think we have a clue in the fact that more women than ever went under, went sub three.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Well, that's also an interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's not just people coming out bucket list.
Speaker B:I want to run a marathon.
Speaker B:That it's also people, you know, creating those goals, which sub 3 is a big goal in the marathon running world.
Speaker B:Right, like creating those goals and going after them.
Speaker A:Right, yeah.
Speaker A:So if you look at the graph, fast women is one who's put together this, like these numbers for the last 15 years or so, 20 years.
Speaker A:You can kind of see that in the last two years, the number of women who run under, run under three hours, run sub three has skyrocketed and now there's a couple.
Speaker A:Obviously there's like super shoes.
Speaker A:And New York changed its qualifying a few years ago where, like, fastest times do get you in, like, they get you a guaranteed spot.
Speaker A:So that probably changed who is in it.
Speaker A:But also you have women coming off the massive change in Olympic marathon qualifying in the US where you had huge numbers of women then trying to aim for the 245 or 242 standard.
Speaker A:Um, so I think it really shifted, like sub elite marathoning for women in the US like, like whatever that word would be, where you, you take it seriously, but you are not a professional runner is like much more of a real thing now.
Speaker A:Um, I think it's really.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like.
Speaker B:And it's not a surprise that women's running is still developing at this point.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:When you.
Speaker B: t Olympic women's marathon in: Speaker B:So it's not that that surprising here that like 60, 50, 60 years later, we're still developing.
Speaker A:I have a cough.
Speaker A:I feel like I need to tell you this.
Speaker A:And just for our listeners, developing a lingering cough from getting sick, which has happened post Kona, because we were in Kona and then also having a bruised rib from crashing.
Speaker A:That is a one plus one equals three situation.
Speaker B:That is a terrible demo.
Speaker A:It's been really.
Speaker A:It's been not awesome.
Speaker B:So I feel your pain.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:Neither is getting better as quickly as it should because they just go in circles.
Speaker A:So anyway, that is my personal problem.
Speaker A:But the New York Marathon, it was I think a fast day, record breaking because you had the top three women were all under the old course record and you had in fourth place, which is my personal pick, Fiona o'.
Speaker B:Keefe.
Speaker A:She had like the ninth fastest time ever on the course and the fastest ever American time.
Speaker A:And she won the Olympic trials last year and kind of like first like surprise, first marathon, but then she had to drop out of the Olympics and she did get some shit for it because she was like, apparently like she knew she was injured and she dropped out.
Speaker A:Less than 5k in.
Speaker A:But I feel like that's her spot to do with what she wants, right?
Speaker B:Like, yeah, totally.
Speaker B:I was actually just reflecting this morning when I was running on a time when I had been injured for six weeks leading into a world championship where I was trying to qualify for a national team and I actually.
Speaker B:Well, I actually was able to finish the race and I didn't get the result I wanted, but I still qualified for the team.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So I, I just feel like something, things can happen, you know, sometimes despite an injury.
Speaker B:Like you don't really know what's going to happen till you go out there and start running.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:I have run through injury.
Speaker A:I've raced through injuries too.
Speaker A:Totally works well advised.
Speaker A:Super, super recommend to other people.
Speaker B:Great idea, Great idea.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So point is, she got a lot of shit for not dropping out and giving her a spot.
Speaker A:But I thought that was kind of.
Speaker A:I mean, she's a professional runner.
Speaker A:She earned the spot.
Speaker A:She probably got bonuses for like.
Speaker A:You can't tell her that.
Speaker B:Totally.
Speaker B:People do that all the time.
Speaker B:People come in injured, you don't know.
Speaker B:Sometimes they end up dropping out and sometimes they end up finishing and, and getting a result they want or somewhere in between.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:But so she has not run again since then because it was like a pretty bad like femoral stress vector or something.
Speaker A:So this was her first marathon back and she was like right in the mix.
Speaker A:So kudos.
Speaker A:So kudos to her.
Speaker A:And also I was like, oh, I think, I think it was not a slow day.
Speaker A:I think it wasn't like that day when I ran it and we were like sharing ice out on the coast.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, you told your ice sharing story last week.
Speaker B:Anyone who wants to know the ice sharing story, listen.
Speaker B:Go listen to last week's episode.
Speaker B:But Kelly, the thing that had me all emotional this week was of course the Cricket World cup, which like, talk about like the women's sports movement.
Speaker B:This has Happened to me a lot in the last year.
Speaker B:Where I go from, like, very close to zero education or interest or knowledge of any kind in a sport to, like.
Speaker B:I wouldn't say I'm super educated on cricket now, to be clear, but like, to, like, very excited and overwhelmed with emotion by what's happening and how things are changing.
Speaker B:And for the Indian team who, you know who took the World Cup.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have to say, I.
Speaker A:When I heard, like, we going into last week, we knew it was going to be Australia vs India in the semis and South Africa vs England in the other semi.
Speaker A:And Australia and England have won every single Women's World cup since there's been a Women's World Cup, Australia or England.
Speaker A:So I was like, well, good for India.
Speaker A:They made it to the semis.
Speaker A:That's like.
Speaker A:But they're not going to beat Australia.
Speaker A:Like, everyone's like, they're not going to beat Australia.
Speaker A:And it was so come from behind.
Speaker A:Like, as other people pointed out, like, you could not write a movie script like this.
Speaker A:Australia, the way cricket works is one team bats and they get as many runs as they can.
Speaker A:And before you get like the 10 outs and then the.
Speaker A:That's like your target, they take a break.
Speaker A:Then the other team goes.
Speaker A:And you either hit that target or you don't.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, you either.
Speaker B:Like, you either beat it and you win.
Speaker A:Beat it.
Speaker A:You win or you don't.
Speaker A:And Australia bad went first and they batted like a record number of like 320 is how these.
Speaker A:I mean, that's how these.
Speaker A:But there was like a record number for a World cup.
Speaker A:So I was like, well, it's.
Speaker A:It's like done, right?
Speaker B:Like, everybody would have thought it was done.
Speaker A:Everybody would have thought it was done.
Speaker A:And then, yeah, it was just like.
Speaker B:They were the favorites.
Speaker A:They were the favorites.
Speaker A:They haven't, like, they're the undefeated.
Speaker A:They're the.
Speaker A:Not just the.
Speaker A:Not just the defending champs, but undefeated for, like, multiple years here, right?
Speaker A:And then India, they had this player, Jemima.
Speaker A:Jemima, who, you know, wasn't even named for the team last time, and she comes up third in the battle and she bats like 127, runs herself and, like, rallies them.
Speaker A:And then they make it to the final, and it was just.
Speaker A:I mean, that's just like, you can't.
Speaker A:Like, that's just insane, right?
Speaker A:And of course, because they had had some rough games in pool play, they'd lost a few, and it's not like it's a very cricket mad country, but then you got but it is ranked quite low in the world in terms of, like, gender parity and gender equality.
Speaker A:And, like, there's a whole bunch of stats that we can share about.
Speaker A:Like, the women are paid much less.
Speaker A:The gender gap is very real.
Speaker A:Like, girls tend to, like, have less opportunities, all this stuff.
Speaker A:So they were getting just like all these guys just on them being like, you don't deserve this money, like, because there was a.
Speaker A:You don't deserve to be on.
Speaker A:This isn't cricket.
Speaker B:Well, and what I thought was the most infuriating for me was like, actually the racism that was like intersected with the sexism.
Speaker B:So it was like, you know, you saw these comments.
Speaker B:Indian women belong in the kitchen, right?
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:You know, like, that's just.
Speaker B:That just took it to another level where I was like, oh, my God, I just want to punch something.
Speaker A:So they had to, like, I don't want to say overcome all that because obviously, like, all of these women have, have had to overcome all these things throughout their entire, like, playing careers.
Speaker A:But that is the stage in which, you know, you had this massive crowd at the final.
Speaker A:They beat South Africa.
Speaker A:It's like everyone's going crazy.
Speaker A:I mean, it was just.
Speaker A:It was nuts, basically.
Speaker A:It was very, very nuts.
Speaker B:Yeah, it seemed very emotional from the, the clips that I saw.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so you had record attendance.
Speaker A:There's like 35, 000, I think fans at the final, something like.
Speaker A:I'm sure they'll come out with the exact numbers and record viewers across like all the digital platforms.
Speaker A:You also had 13 point, the 13.8 million which the winner gets 4ish million, the winning team.
Speaker A:So all of these players now, like, I mean, it gets divided up.
Speaker A: ly been, it's only been since: Speaker A:Were on a professional, like a team, national salary contract.
Speaker A:They didn't have to have other jobs.
Speaker A:It's only been like so long that there's been a Premier League in India where like, they have contracts and they can play.
Speaker A:So this is, it's not just like groundbreaking.
Speaker A:It's like going to change the sport.
Speaker B:This is going to transform cricket in women's cricket in India, like, it to a level that we can't, you know, that us having lived in North America Post Title 9, can't possibly imagine, I don't think like in.
Speaker B:Because we haven't seen that in our lifetime, like the, that amount of money, 13.88 million going into that, going into.
Speaker B:Well, I guess it goes across the teams, but it goes whatever million was the, was the winning prize money going into women's cricket in India.
Speaker B:And then like you also have that effect of like how success begets success.
Speaker B:Like we've all seen that where like in certain countries when you have, you know, if you have a high profile Olympic champion and something, you know, all of the kids, then the next generation all want to do that sport.
Speaker B:And so we're just gonna see piles and piles of like Indian girls wanting to play cricket, which is just incredible.
Speaker A:And they're.
Speaker A:And they were obviously like trailblazers, pioneers before them or you know, like India made the final in World cup like back in 17 or 05.
Speaker A: years and retired in: Speaker A:You know, it's a lot of these girls, like she set the stage for them.
Speaker A:And so it's just, it's like, it's pretty, it was pretty amazing.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's really special.
Speaker B:And the reaction, like if anyone hasn't seen it, go check out our reel on Social, like where the, on feisty underscore media where you see the celebration.
Speaker B:That was a celebration.
Speaker B:Like, I mean every team celebrates when they win a world level event, but this was the next level celebration.
Speaker B:You could see it.
Speaker A:I will say though, it also highlights our, a lot of, our kind of underlying question, whatever the, the question of the day, Sarah, the.
Speaker A:How much money should female athletes make?
Speaker B:Chris?
Speaker A:I will tell you, I had some.
Speaker A:So the Premier League in India, some of the elite players now are making the women a couple hundred thousand dollars on a contract.
Speaker A:And even people who are women, women cricket fans and cricket fans are like, that seems like a lot of money.
Speaker A:Like, I don't know, like, how are they, how are they ma?
Speaker A:How are they like earning that much money for the team?
Speaker A:You know, how did they make that much money back?
Speaker A:Part of me is like, I don't.
Speaker A:I mean India is a giant market.
Speaker A:Think about how many girls you can sell shit to off that league.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:My point is there's still this underlying like, I don't know, that seems like.
Speaker B:A lot of money that happens.
Speaker B:I mean, doesn't that happen in any situation when change happens quickly?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Or when people are suddenly paid a lot more money than even the supporters of being paid more money all along?
Speaker A:Like, sure, sure.
Speaker B:Oh, are we sure.
Speaker B:We want that much money.
Speaker B:We want that much more money.
Speaker B:It's, it's a funny, it's a thing about human nature, right?
Speaker B:Like do want that much change.
Speaker B:It's like the little like conservative voice in all of us.
Speaker B:Like how quickly do we want change?
Speaker A:I mean obviously like we hear it a lot in some of our social.
Speaker A:They're like, well, I'm all for equality women but let's not go crazy, right?
Speaker A:And you're like, okay, yeah.
Speaker A:So it was interesting because the other thing is like obviously like we're saying like this is going to be a pivotal like changing moment.
Speaker A:This amount of money, this amount of success, these examples, this TV deals like for a 1.2 billion person population, like that is going to be massive.
Speaker A:But it also came on the backs of you know, a development pipeline.
Speaker A:Invest, like making that women's pro league in India, giving like the national team salaries.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like it took that to get us there.
Speaker A:So when we, if we're going to like extrapolate and draw parallels, right?
Speaker A:It's like you cannot have one of the best teams you can.
Speaker A:You don't just like randomly accidentally win a World cup without some of that.
Speaker B:Investment that's already in place.
Speaker A:It's already in place.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, but yeah, to your.
Speaker A:We were going to talk about the wnba.
Speaker A:I was actually wnbpa, but that's the players.
Speaker B:Wnba, Players Association.
Speaker B:But contrastly the acronyms even for me were have been confusing.
Speaker B:Trying to read up on this because I'm like, can't we just call the Players association the Players association and not just add a P to an existing acronym?
Speaker B:Because then my brain, like my book makes my brain function weird.
Speaker A:But one of the things that like the Players association has.
Speaker A:Yeah, now you got me confused.
Speaker A:But one of the, one of the issues at, at like at the crust of this whole debate over contract, it's kind of like they're, they're like, well, we should be paid more.
Speaker A:And everyone's like, yeah, yeah, you'll be.
Speaker A:I'm all for equality girls, but like let's not go crazy.
Speaker A:And a thing I did appreciate about cricket was they didn't say like, oh, we have to go in increments to up the price first.
Speaker A:They were like, no, like let's just make it equal to the men's now.
Speaker B:Like a hundred percent.
Speaker B:Yes and yes.
Speaker B:And of all places to have that happening in a World cup in India is amazing.
Speaker A:And that took a four, it was like a four time increase of what it was last time.
Speaker A:And so so we're kind of at that point with WNBA now, right, where everyone agrees that they should be paid more.
Speaker A:The league agrees they should be paid more.
Speaker A:The players think like every.
Speaker A:And what is the debate is kind of.
Speaker A:And we, we're gonna like, get into some of the details, but what the debate is is both, like, how much more they should be paid and like, what that looks like, right?
Speaker B:Like how much are they and by what mechanism?
Speaker B:Right, yeah, so I think.
Speaker B:So I was trying to whittle this down into.
Speaker B:Because I've been.
Speaker B:I have actually been struggling even having read all about this, about the WNBA collective bargaining agreement, like, what are the issues?
Speaker B:How and how do I simplify this into something that like, I can repeat to someone when they ask me, right.
Speaker A:So you got it down.
Speaker A:Do it.
Speaker B:And this is what I got.
Speaker B:You can tell me.
Speaker B:You can be like, no, Sarah, this would be better, a better explanation.
Speaker B:But okay.
Speaker B:The main issue is about the revenue sharing, right?
Speaker B:And the percentage of the revenue that goes to the players so that their, their pay will continue to grow with the league.
Speaker B:So like you said, like, everyone agrees that they should be paid more.
Speaker B:It's just like, by how, by what mechanism?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So already the league has come to the table with a massive jump in the maximum.
Speaker B:We talked about this before a couple weeks ago in the maximum and minimum salaries.
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B:They've already offered the minimum salaries going up from 66k to 300 and the maximum going from 250 to 850, which are huge jumps.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:So on the surface, if you just heard that, you might be like, okay, we're talking about like a 4x5x like jump to your.
Speaker B:Imagine to your salary.
Speaker B:That's huge in any industry.
Speaker B:Like, why not.
Speaker B:Why not just say yes to that?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:And league maintains that it needs to keep like, so the league.
Speaker B:But basically what the players want.
Speaker B:Sorry, what the players want is the same as what the NBA has for the most part, is that like the.
Speaker B:That they want 50% of the revenue, ish, a bigger percentage of the revenue to go directly to paying them so that they are scaled into the growth.
Speaker A:So what you're saying is like the league is saying, we're gonna pay you four times more.
Speaker A:And then you're like, well, why wouldn't anyone say yes to that?
Speaker A:And the players are saying they don't want to say yes to that because they're betting on themselves.
Speaker A:They want.
Speaker A:They fundamentally first priority is revenue sharing.
Speaker A:They want a share of revenue because they fundamentally believe that it will be even More than that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, they believe because of the projections of the last few, like, based on the last few years and the growth, that.
Speaker A:That if they agree to a salary cap of 800,000 through the next six years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That that's actually going to lowball.
Speaker A:Like, that's actually going to be low.
Speaker B:Right, right, yes, exactly.
Speaker B:And they can have us.
Speaker B:They're going to have salary caps, minimums and maximums, as well as a percentage.
Speaker B:As well as hopefully a percentage share of the revenue.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So they want revenue sharing.
Speaker A:That is the fundamental disagreement.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And so then when you're like, okay, you have this huge, massive, growing thing, the players are clearly very, very important to that growth.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's growing hugely.
Speaker B:Why would the league then not just agree to share the revenue, to share a percentage of, you know, some negotiated percentage of this massively growing revenue.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I like how a second ago we were like, why wouldn't the players just agree to up their salary?
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker A:Why wouldn't the league just agree to share?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:I'm trying to play both sides because I think previously, prior to this, I think I have fully understood where the players stood and have not and have struggled to be To.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To understand where the league stands in this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that's why I've had to, like, break this down even for myself, you know, so the league.
Speaker B:This is the crux of it.
Speaker B:I think here.
Speaker B:The league maintains that it needs to keep some portion of the revenue for the owners and investors and to ensure continued growth, like, to attract new owners and investors.
Speaker A:Point, Sarah.
Speaker A:The players aren't taking 100% of the revenue.
Speaker B:Oh, no, I'm not making.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:To be clear, I'm on the player side.
Speaker B:I'm just like.
Speaker B:I'm just trying to, like, understand.
Speaker B:I'm just giving, like, a try of just.
Speaker B:What is it?
Speaker A:I mean, with the.
Speaker B:Honestly trying to understand the league, I.
Speaker A:Think the league's argument is one, it is structured differently than the NBA.
Speaker A:So saying that, like, well, the NBA, the players get 9 or 10% of revenue, like, that doesn't work the exact same because the WNBA ownership is structured slightly differently.
Speaker A:So, so like the owner.
Speaker A:So like the owners, there isn't as much revenue.
Speaker A:Like, that's the league's argument.
Speaker A:I still like the league's argument is there isn't as much revenue to go around for everybody.
Speaker A:So if we want people to keep investing in the league, which is obviously what we want and we want, and they also want to expand to even more teams, then we're not going to get that kind of investment if we start cutting off and limiting their potential profits.
Speaker B:So, yeah, another key point here that I didn't read anywhere.
Speaker B:So now I'm just, like, connecting dots.
Speaker B:Okay, Is that, like, because you have these valuations of teams that have gone up, like, some of them, like, tenfold, you know, over.
Speaker B:The valuations have gone way, way up.
Speaker B:So in order to attract, like, new investors and new owners.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You need to attract different people.
Speaker B:You need.
Speaker B:You need more billionaires to support the growth of.
Speaker A:That's really what a lot of people say about the world right now.
Speaker A:We just need more billionaires.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker B:I hear that all the time.
Speaker A:All the time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You need more people who can afford to invest in a team or the league or whatever to be attracted to.
Speaker B:And so in order to do that, you need to say to them, okay, look, this is like, you obviously have to open your books, show them your numbers, and show them that their investment is going to be good.
Speaker B:And so I think that that desire to.
Speaker B:And they're saying this outright, so I didn't just figure this out.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, they're saying that desire to find new investors and ownership and actually continue to grow.
Speaker B:The league is now at odds with the players wanting to be paid.
Speaker B:What is.
Speaker B:What seems fair, I think, to a lot of.
Speaker A:I don't know that it's a percentage of that.
Speaker A:I think it is only at odds with, like, if we accept all the current premises.
Speaker A:You see what I'm saying?
Speaker A:Like, you know, like.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:If we accept the status quo, then it might be at odds because we've told investors, like, oh, yeah, we got a great deal for you.
Speaker A:We have.
Speaker A:This league is making huge.
Speaker A:We don't even have to pay the labor.
Speaker A:It's fantastic.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, then, sure, like, your new deal for your next investors is not going to be as good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, so that I think is like the, the exist.
Speaker A:If, if we accept the existing constraints, then sure, like, those two issues are at odds.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And this is exactly it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And then I think it, like, this kind of feeds into, like, what we wanted to talk about, which is, like, what is the model that we want to have for sports in these leagues as they grow.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B:Essentially right now you have, like, the fans are backing the players.
Speaker B:Like, and the fans are the ones who, like, buy the tickets, buy the merch, watch the games, like, buy the products of the sponsors.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so, like, obviously that has a huge influence on, like, who has power in this situation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But you also need.
Speaker B:You also need, like, your owners and investors and like, and how you make those two things work together for the future of women's sports, I think is important here in this negotiation.
Speaker B:But also this is not going to be the last time, like, this same conversation is going to happen.
Speaker B:Like, as some of these new leagues grow as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Arguably it's just happening in WNBA right now because they hit such a growth point so.
Speaker A:Well, not so quickly because they've been on for 20 years, but in such a short period of time, they grew so quickly that all of these issues are kind of like coming to a head.
Speaker A:Whereas I think sometimes you might have them spread out a little bit.
Speaker A:But one of the things like, to like, you kind of hinted at there is that there's all these studies that show female sports fans, but specifically WNBA fans, are slightly different than NBA or male sports fans.
Speaker A:Like, they follow players.
Speaker A:They are fans of players specifically next of like, it's the team.
Speaker B:Well, they're fans of the.
Speaker A:Identify players.
Speaker B:Yeah, depends on the players.
Speaker B:But also like, they're fans of women's sports.
Speaker B:They're fans of the league.
Speaker B:Like, they're not necessarily as identifying with the teams themselves as men's sports.
Speaker A:That is like, generally true in this, like, in these stats, right.
Speaker A:Where it's like no team in the WNBA has more followers than their most followed player on like, social media.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So like, so that if you kind of inherently are coming at it from one, you follow the players, you're on the side of the players, you followed them to this team that you're a fan of them of, then you're going to be with them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think the other thing that a lot of women's sports and arguably WNBA is struggling is not the right word, but like, they don't know quite what to do with is like, like you're saying a lot of fans come with this.
Speaker A:They are fans of women's sports.
Speaker A:They are fans of like, social justice issues.
Speaker A:They want their teams and their players to stand for something and represent something.
Speaker A:And so then that is fundamentally like, you're going to be at odds with the money.
Speaker A:You're going to be like, against the establishment.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're like, I am here for my player.
Speaker A:I'm gonna back my player.
Speaker A:And I don't want these corporate bigwigs to be taking her money.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:You're seeing it play out in this specific negotiation because the fans are with the players.
Speaker A:Like, the fans.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Are completely with the players.
Speaker A:They're like, booing the commissioner.
Speaker B:Yes, they're very, very much with the players.
Speaker B:And it's going to be interesting to see, like, what happens into the future when the.
Speaker B:When she, like, the players become the owners.
Speaker B:Like, what happens when.
Speaker B:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Like, what happens when we move to that, like, next level of, like, we become the man, essentially.
Speaker A:Well, I think one of the things that was super interesting about the WNBA negotiations specifically is like, okay, so Nafisia Kalier is the head of the players association, and she also founded the 3 on 3 unrivaled league.
Speaker A:And so one of the things she said in her, like, scorched earth interview at the end of the season was, like, they made this seem so complicated.
Speaker A:And then we went and did it, and it turns out you can give players ownership.
Speaker A:You can build, like, a player first league from the ground up.
Speaker A:Actually, like, we know you can because we have this model that we just built.
Speaker A:But I don't know that that's, like, super, like.
Speaker A:I think she's a very, very smart person.
Speaker A:I don't think that's, like, super easy to do.
Speaker A:I think they built unrivaled, like, very consciously to do that, to, like, get owner, like, buy in from all the players.
Speaker A:But, yeah, the.
Speaker A:In a very classic strike sense, the league has lost the fans.
Speaker B:They are 100.
Speaker A:They have lost this public battle, and.
Speaker B:That'S a big deal.
Speaker B:Like, if it goes to that.
Speaker B:Like, if it goes to strike, where the players essentially don't play, the fans are on their side, and it's going to be really hard to shake that.
Speaker A:Interestingly, though, okay, so to your point, right, that they identify with the players, they identify with women's sports.
Speaker A:The other big thing this past weekend was the World Series.
Speaker A:Men's sports.
Speaker A:We're gonna talk about men's sports just.
Speaker A:Just so we can talk about men's.
Speaker B:Sports for a comparison.
Speaker A:For a comparison, yeah.
Speaker B:Purposes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So the men's World Series was this past weekend, and I assume all of Canada watched, is my understanding.
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:Like, I think, you know, like, Maya, who I think sent a voice memo last week on our team.
Speaker B:She did on her personal, social, like, just like an explainer about the rules of baseball, because so many friends asked her about it.
Speaker B:And I have to tell you, like, I had that same experience of, like, people not understanding, like, the basic rules of baseball.
Speaker B:Because in Canada, like, they've.
Speaker B:They're just literally watching it for the first time.
Speaker B:They're like, what's going on?
Speaker B:So, yes, like, I think there Was a general national watching happening.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So here's my question.
Speaker A:So the whole country is behind the Blue Jays, who have one Canadian player on their team.
Speaker A:And I'm going to guess you watched it and you cannot name a player on the Blue Jays.
Speaker B:No, I mean, I could have last week, but that's in my brain out, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's like the opposite here, Right.
Speaker A:It's the opposite example where like, you've created a franchise that people buy into the franchise.
Speaker A:The, like, the, the cogs are somewhat interchangeable, which sounds terrible, but like, they are.
Speaker A:Obviously people love certain players.
Speaker A:Obviously Otani was like, massive in this World Series, Whatever.
Speaker A:But you know what I'm saying, like, you identify first and foremost with the team.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And you feel like that represents your, you, your, your area, your, like, who you are.
Speaker A:Like, we rooted against LA just because we root against la.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, even though I don't care, you know, and if those players, when those players go up, think about the last time we had a men's sports contract negotiation.
Speaker A:It is almost always viewed as these players are overpaid, they get played to just play sports.
Speaker A:Why are they bitching?
Speaker A:They're already making so much, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think you don't have the fans with them.
Speaker B:You don't have the fans with them.
Speaker B:I think in essence we are in a moment where, like we've said many times, we don't have to build the women's sports infrastructure in the same way that we built the men's.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, like, I think that this is a time when, and I don't know, I'm not inside the negotiations, so whatever, like, I have no recourse or say on any of this, but like, that, that I think it is possible to continue to think about how we're taking social responsibility and within how they construct that deal.
Speaker B:Like, and I don't really know, like, I don't actually really know without knowing the numbers what that looks like.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I think that the idea that the idea that we're right now, the idea that the players get, you know, gets scaled in makes a lot of sense to the socially conscious fans.
Speaker B:And I understand why.
Speaker B:And it makes sense to me, right.
Speaker B:That we're not as concerned about the rich ownership team group or at least.
Speaker A:Okay, you have, you have, you have built a sport on a fan base that is.
Speaker A:Does not care about the rich ownership fan.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah, they do not.
Speaker A:Like, they, like you could have built a sport on a different fan base, but that's not what you did, right.
Speaker A:Like, you build a sport on a fan base that is like, the rich ownership does not care if they will make slightly less money.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And doesn't want to be them.
Speaker A:I think that's the other thing.
Speaker A:A lot of male sports fans idealize the rich ownership and the rich players in the sense that they, like, want to be like that.
Speaker A:I don't think women's sports fans have that same.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, so how do we build in a level of, like, social responsibility here that could make it, like, because we have men's sports as an example that went before us to see what happened.
Speaker B:So, like, we know what happened in the NBA when the players get 50% of the revenue.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And we know that it leads to things like you just said, like, people being like, oh, they're paid with too much.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:All they do is play whatever sport.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So except for Steph Curry, because Steph Curry is universally beloved.
Speaker B:So fair.
Speaker B:But, like, can we build something into the agreements?
Speaker B:Like, can we build things into the salary caps or can we build things into money that's being put back into the community?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I honestly think.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:I'm going to.
Speaker A:Ready.
Speaker A:Here's Kelly's hot take.
Speaker A:I hate the word ready.
Speaker A:I don't think it's possible.
Speaker A:I think this becomes the whole, like, can you have good billionaires?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And it's one of that, like, fundamental.
Speaker A:That's like the.
Speaker A:That's one of the existential questions of, like, our current political climate and times is like, is there such a thing as someone who you can be, like, a good billionaire?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Can you make enough money and still be, like, a good person?
Speaker A:And it becomes like this.
Speaker A:And this is like kind of the crisis of the time.
Speaker A:Like, of.
Speaker A:And more and more people, like, the reason the fans are with the WNBA players is because they feel like WNBA players are being taken advantage of, are not making enough.
Speaker A:If they keep making more and more and more and more and they're making 5 million a year or whatever.
Speaker A:The fundamental answer to a lot of those fans is going to be like, there are people starving.
Speaker A:We don't need you to make 5 million.
Speaker A:We need child care.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, we don't need, like, that extra couple million.
Speaker A:We need, like, community food drives in our neighborhood.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Like, so I think that they're like, you fundamentally get to a point where you lose the.
Speaker A:Like, your fan base does not believe that there can be good billionaires, for lack of a better term.
Speaker A:And so there will be a point where, in their head, the players are the Same as ownership.
Speaker A:They're all rich people.
Speaker A:Does.
Speaker A:Do rich people really need to be richer?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so I think what I'm asking is, can we build something into the infrastructure of how.
Speaker B:Now I say agree on it.
Speaker B:Now you're saying.
Speaker A:No, I'm saying it's fundamental.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker A:I'm saying that I think it is fundamental.
Speaker A:I think it is like, inherent in the tension that when you.
Speaker A:It's like the.
Speaker A:It is the.
Speaker A:When something gets too popular, it's not cool anymore.
Speaker A:Quandary.
Speaker A:It is the crisis.
Speaker B:Like, I agree with you to an extent.
Speaker B:Like, I agree with you in terms of like, we're naming the crisis correctly, Right.
Speaker B:I do think that there's like a sliding scale of goodness for billionaires, right?
Speaker B:Like, so I do think that you can have, you know, you could have billionaires who are.
Speaker B:It has to be.
Speaker B:It has to be like, you could have billionaires that are doing more good than harm, and you can have billionaires that are doing more harm than good.
Speaker B:So how can we build into the system a way for like, the league, the players, the teams to be committing now before.
Speaker B:Before the riches fall from the sky, like, committing now to some kind of social impact that they want to have and build it into how the entire.
Speaker A:I mean, I think there have been agreements that have tried to reflect this, right?
Speaker A:Like the US Soccer, when they reached that settlement, the equal pay settlement, they built into that.
Speaker A:Like, some of that money was set for like, development.
Speaker A:Some of it was set for childcare.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I think wn the Players Association, WNBA has tried to build in like, certain notions of, like, we will do these things around our stadiums.
Speaker A:We will.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So I think that's what I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah, that.
Speaker A:So you can.
Speaker A:And they have tried.
Speaker A:My point is kind of a fund like a how the, how the.
Speaker A:How your fans view you.
Speaker A:And right now they are on your side, but at some point you're just another rich spoiled person.
Speaker A:And like, yeah, it's fun to go to a game but that you lo.
Speaker A:Like, you will lose the fans then, right?
Speaker A:Like, and, and, and women's sports fans are not a chill bunch.
Speaker A:This is, this is, this is true.
Speaker A:You know, I am right.
Speaker A:They are not a chill bunch.
Speaker A:And so they, like men's sports fans, have been taught for a long, long time that like, well, of course every male player should be out there trying to get as much as he can get.
Speaker A:We get like, while the getting is good.
Speaker A:Like, that is your goal in life.
Speaker A:I think the women's sports fans have not Been taught that for.
Speaker A:Probably for better.
Speaker A:They have been taught, like, you should do what you can to make the world a better place.
Speaker A:And so at some point, it cracks for them.
Speaker A:Like, that's what I think.
Speaker A:And, like, because you can already see this tension in.
Speaker A:I told you, like, my mom, like, didn't want to buy WNBA stuff because she didn't want to support the league.
Speaker A:And you can see it in, like, the nwsl.
Speaker A:Like, they're really struggling with some of this tension, even though they are.
Speaker A:They're.
Speaker A:They're more profitable than people give them credit for.
Speaker A:But they're obviously smaller than wnba, but they are the next league that's going to have this problem.
Speaker A:And they've been signing some deals, some sponsor deals that a lot of their fans then are not on board with.
Speaker A:And they're not even, like, super.
Speaker A:They're not.
Speaker A:They're not signing, like, what you or I would think of as terrible deals.
Speaker A:They're just like.
Speaker A:Like, they signed a deal with Alex Cooper, right.
Speaker A:For her, like, weird hydration product.
Speaker A:I don't understand, like, why everyone has a hydration product side point.
Speaker B:But, like, the fan base makes you look younger, Kelly.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Whatever.
Speaker A:What's that?
Speaker A:The Ballerina Farm has a hydration product now.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway.
Speaker A:Yeah, so they signed a deal with her and a lot of people weren't fans because she came from Barstool.
Speaker A:And Barstool is like a.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so, like, they're like, you.
Speaker A:You alienate.
Speaker A:And as you sign these more and more deals and you, like.
Speaker A:And they're going to be more.
Speaker A:And that's going to happen more and more.
Speaker A:And I think, like, the pwhl, like, I am not deep in hockey culture, but when Maya comes on to give us a PWHL preview, we can talk about this.
Speaker A:My understanding is they're also grappling with some, like, culture toxicity type issues.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm glad that you brought up the sponsorship thing, because I think this is a big one in this.
Speaker B:In this kind of realm.
Speaker B:Like, who you like, who the sponsorships are.
Speaker B:When there's been, like, traditionally been these, like, smaller companies that sponsor the team, suddenly you have big corporate and you have big money coming in and you see returns.
Speaker B:And, like, you still look like.
Speaker B:I was looking up the other day, like, the biggest.
Speaker B:Like, what Basically, essentially, like, what are women buying right now?
Speaker B:Is essentially the question I was trying.
Speaker B:And the number one is still, like, skin care, which is fine.
Speaker B:Nothing wrong with skincare, but I feel.
Speaker A:Like Take it to a weird level now.
Speaker B:Like skin.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The fact that that's the number one thing, it.
Speaker B:It's just kind of like, okay, we're still, you know, we're still kind of like, bogged down by beauty standards, this whole culture.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:And are we bringing that into.
Speaker B:Are we bringing that into women's sports?
Speaker B:Well, yes.
Speaker B:Like, I wouldn't fight, like, Sephora is the title sponsor of Toronto Tempo.
Speaker B:Am I going to make an argument about makeup?
Speaker B:Like, no.
Speaker B:Like, makeup's a product that, like, a lot of women.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think it's fundamentally powerful.
Speaker A:I am not going to fight that fight.
Speaker A:And, like, I think that sponsorship is fine.
Speaker A:And I'm not gon, like, not follow the Tempo because they have a Sephora do.
Speaker A:I think it's fundamentally weird and that we've, like, swallowed the fcking Kool Aid.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we have people, our audience.
Speaker A:I'm sure there are people here who are, like, deeply care about what they eat and what they put in their body and what they put on their body, and they want to be, like, very, very healthy.
Speaker A:And yet they probably wear large amounts of chemicals on their face over their entire lifetime because they have been told that that is normal.
Speaker A:And I'm not saying, like, I'm not like, we have people like it.
Speaker A:Like, I'm just saying that is true.
Speaker A:That is a paradox that, like, women have been sold.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we've even.
Speaker A:I think it's on a. Yeah.
Speaker B:On a much less grand scale.
Speaker B:Like, even here at Feisty, like, we grapple with that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:Like when we're, like, we get approached by the most commonest supplement partners.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then we have to, like, look into it and decide whether.
Speaker B:And like, I cannot tell you, especially, like, at certain times when we have, like, cash flow pinches, like, how hard it is to say no to a company who's willing to pay you money when you're, like, when you need that money.
Speaker B:But you're like, I'm sorry, your product doesn't pass our, like, our test of being a quality supplement.
Speaker A:And so that there are.
Speaker A:If we did, if we, if we as Feisty took those sponsorships because they were going to pay us some crazy amount of money, and we were like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna hawk this super sketchy supplement, we would lose fans.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There are many people in our audience who would say, like, that is.
Speaker A:That's not who you guys are now.
Speaker A:I'm just drawing a parallel.
Speaker A:And people.
Speaker A:Yeah, we've.
Speaker B:We've had that before people have said that just about even us having supplement partners broadly, but we just instead go with like vetting supplement partners.
Speaker B:You have to draw a line.
Speaker B:There it is.
Speaker B:But not everyone agrees with a line.
Speaker B:So I, I already have these conversations.
Speaker A:So that line is.
Speaker A:So my point is like, we understand it on our level, then you multiply that by a thousand or whatever and.
Speaker A:And my mom is going to be like, why the fuck is Sephora sponsoring a basketball team?
Speaker A:I think that's bullshit because that's my mom, right?
Speaker A:Other people, the line might be like, what was the douching product that was like sponsoring the liberty that like, was like, I again, like, right.
Speaker A:And I again, like, there are people like, that's fine.
Speaker A:But this was one where like, there really is no health benefit.
Speaker A:It's a lot about like, it might be doing more harm than good anyway.
Speaker A:Definitely might be doing more harm than good.
Speaker A:So then there's people for whom that's going to be the line where you're like, well, now you've lost me.
Speaker A:You're not who I thought you were.
Speaker A:When all of this is like a made up.
Speaker A:Who they think you are is a made up thing anyway, I guess is sort of where I'm going, is my point.
Speaker A:Like, your image as a sports team is a made up thing that you are selling.
Speaker A:You are selling it on the basis of branding and marketing and who you hire and what ads you put out and who your sponsors are.
Speaker A:And so at some point you're going to get to these lines where that's going to be the question.
Speaker B:And I still think that, okay, while obviously you're not going to please everyone and you're going to have more and more of these problems, I still think it's like very much a gray scale or like a sliding scale.
Speaker B:So I think it's still possible to try to try.
Speaker B:I think it's worthy of trying of like setting standards of social responsibility.
Speaker B:Just like on a tiny level.
Speaker B:We did it at Feisty.
Speaker B:Like we said, we said no to like a very big supplement brand that was like going, you know, that's on every.
Speaker A:That's on like on many other podcasts.
Speaker B:Podcast, yeah.
Speaker B:And I took it to two people who I knew could like review the science on the product and they looked at it and they're like, this is not what it says it is.
Speaker B:It's not worth the money.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:And I said no.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so like, there's still a way to try to maintain some kind of like social responsibility there and still try to grow the company.
Speaker B:Because I do.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:Part of what I.
Speaker B:Part of my reason for doing that is that I'm like, okay, I need.
Speaker B:We need our people to still trust us.
Speaker B:And that trust is important.
Speaker B:So I think the wnba, the teams, the leagues, the nwsl, like, I think that they can do that in some way in understanding that it's always going to be gray and you're not going.
Speaker A:To please everyone, I think who they currently have in the room, the current women's sports fans or current WNBA fans.
Speaker A:That line, like, you can't.
Speaker A:Like, you will.
Speaker A:You cannot become a company of a certain size and keep that.
Speaker A:You will have to get other different fans.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:Like, you see where I'm going?
Speaker A:Like, I'm making a hand gesture.
Speaker A:I'm saying, like, this is your circle that you currently have.
Speaker A:This circles line is really low.
Speaker A:This circle believes there is no such thing as good billionaires.
Speaker A:You are going to lose a good amount of that circle as you grow partially.
Speaker A:They're going to get priced out.
Speaker A:They're going to, like, opt out.
Speaker A:They're going to move on.
Speaker A:Like, they're going to pick some other thing that's like, well, now I like this other athlete who's up and coming and needs.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you are going to need to make that circle a different circle.
Speaker A:Like a big.
Speaker A:Like, you're going to need to get that more general, broad, like, you fanned.
Speaker A:Casual fan.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And I think that's.
Speaker A:If you can't get the casual fan who isn't invested in your social responsibility, just wants you to win the goddamn game, then.
Speaker A:Then you have a problem.
Speaker A:Like, then it.
Speaker A:You're not.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:And like, right now they're just making the circle that cares about the social, like, bigger.
Speaker A:And they need to.
Speaker A:They need.
Speaker A:They also need a different circle.
Speaker A:Sarah.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:The fandom does need to grow and diversify.
Speaker B:That is actually true.
Speaker B:And that's just.
Speaker B:That's part of what the growth is going to look like.
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker A:They're like, at some point they're going to have to like, like, switch.
Speaker A:You know, they're going to be like, okay, you guys out.
Speaker B:These other people, you guys are out now.
Speaker B:We're only selling makeup and beauty products and sell it.
Speaker A:Like, I think it's really the.
Speaker A:What's the whole.
Speaker A:It's like, it's, it's.
Speaker A:You have to have the casual fan.
Speaker A:If you really want to become a mega league, you have to have the casual fan, which we'll see.
Speaker A:Ah.
Speaker A:But right now, the WNBA still makes small enough amounts of.
Speaker A:Players make small enough amounts of money that everyone is on their side.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Ultimately, they will make so much money, we will not be on their side anymore.
Speaker A:But it probably is, like, 10 years away.
Speaker B:Well, I might be.
Speaker B:Kelly won't be.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I'm just saying, same thing's happening in college sports right now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We were all on the side of college athletes and then.
Speaker A:And I still am because I think, burn the whole system down, whatever you.
Speaker A:You know, I. I am like, it.
Speaker A:They should get paid.
Speaker A:But there's a lot of people who now it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker A:I'm all for equality girls, but that's the equivalent of what we're seeing happen now.
Speaker A:They were like.
Speaker A:I was all for, like, sure, players should be paid, but this is crease.
Speaker A:So you're seeing the same thing happen in college, and it's like gutting college fandom.
Speaker A:So I'm not, like, making this up.
Speaker A:Like, you will.
Speaker A:Like, it is what happens, but.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And it is gutting college fandom.
Speaker B:Like, the numbers are down.
Speaker A:Well, college football is massively up.
Speaker A:A part of that is not.
Speaker A:Massively up isn't the right word.
Speaker A:Part of that is because every TV network needs, like, something to fill their time, and you have the whole, like, TV kind of collapsing, too.
Speaker A:And, like, college football is very, very cheap.
Speaker A:So, like, literally, it's like some state you've never.
Speaker A:Some, you know, South Dakota Western State University versus Northern Alaska, like, on tv.
Speaker A:And I'm like, what the hell?
Speaker A:And there's no one in the stands.
Speaker A:So it's a very.
Speaker A:It's very weird right now, if that makes sense.
Speaker A:Where there are huge amounts of money, but it's gutting, like, the local fandom, but you're selling anyway.
Speaker A:That's probably.
Speaker A:We can.
Speaker A:We can talk about the college landscape in America.
Speaker B:Another day.
Speaker B:Another day.
Speaker B:Okay, so our original question was, how do women's sports make money and stay true to their fan base?
Speaker A:No, I think my original question was, can they make enough money without pissing off their fans?
Speaker A:And my answer is no.
Speaker B:Okay, so I'm in the middle.
Speaker B:I would like to.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:But just to.
Speaker B:Yeah, to move.
Speaker B:To move along.
Speaker B:I would put this out to our audience.
Speaker B:Does anyone have any thoughts?
Speaker B:We love getting voice memos from you.
Speaker B:So if you're listening to Kelly and I debate this and you're like, hey, hey, ladies.
Speaker B:You're not thinking of this, this, and this, then you are the person we want to hear From.
Speaker B:So send us a voice memo.
Speaker B:The link will be in the.
Speaker B:In the show notes of how to do that.
Speaker A:I would like to hear a one sentence answer to can they keep making more and more money without making so much money they piss off their fans?
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker A:I think I would like.
Speaker A:I would like.
Speaker B:Send us your thesis statement.
Speaker A:Your thesis statement.
Speaker A:All right, we did our highlights.
Speaker A:What we loved this past week.
Speaker A:We dove deep into our topic for the week.
Speaker A:Now, Sarah, I want your feisty pick of the week.
Speaker A:I think I'm.
Speaker A:I'm actually gonna go first.
Speaker A:I like how I said that and then I decided I'm gonna go first.
Speaker B:Go for it.
Speaker A:All right, so this week is 70.3 World Championships, which for people who don't know is the half ironman world championships, which I actually think is like the most fun distance.
Speaker A:It's the best.
Speaker A:It's in Marbella.
Speaker A:There's like 6, 000 people competing and I want to give.
Speaker A:This isn't exactly a pick, but I am giving a pick, a shout out to our intern who is qaing this right now.
Speaker A:Lydia Russell.
Speaker A:She is my pick for a hot top 10.
Speaker A:I've been telling everyone she could pop off watch out for her.
Speaker B:And yeah, Lydia has been sort of.
Speaker B:She's had a couple breakthrough performances in the last year.
Speaker B:We're so excited for her.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I'm excited to see her race too.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:My pick is Sierra Kerr and she is the 18 year old who was the first woman to do a backflip on a surfboard.
Speaker B:And she's the world junior.
Speaker B:The world junior champion of something.
Speaker B:But I, I, until I saw this did not realize that a backflip on a surfboard was a thing.
Speaker B:And she is the first woman to do it.
Speaker B:It's quite impressive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, those.
Speaker A:Send us your picks of the week too.
Speaker A:If you liked what you heard, give us a review or rating.
Speaker A:If you didn't like it, give us five stars.
Speaker A:Anyway, share with your friends.
Speaker A:You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify or watch it on YouTube and you'll get the full effect.
Speaker A:And we will be back next week.
Speaker A:Sa.
