In this thought-provoking episode of Carbon Sessions, we have the privilege of hosting Nathan Havey, filmmaker and passionate advocate for sustainable business practices.

Nathan takes us behind the scenes of his visionary documentary "Beyond Zero," which chronicles Interface's revolutionary journey towards sustainability under the visionary leadership of Ray Anderson.

This wide-ranging conversation delves deep into the transformative power of storytelling in the business world, exploring how narrative can inspire change in ways that facts and figures alone cannot.

Nathan shares his unique insights on the challenges and triumphs of creating and distributing documentaries that showcase positive business stories, offering a fresh perspective on how we view corporate sustainability efforts.

The discussion expands beyond filmmaking to explore the evolving concept of stakeholder capitalism, with Nathan breaking down its five key elements and how they can reshape our approach to business.

From learning from nature's regenerative designs to addressing systemic discrimination, this episode offers a comprehensive look at how companies can drive positive change while maintaining profitability.

Whether you're a seasoned business leader, a sustainability professional, or simply someone interested in how companies can make a meaningful difference in the world, this episode provides valuable insights, practical advice, and inspiring examples of how businesses can lead the charge towards a more sustainable and equitable future.

Join us for a conversation that challenges conventional thinking and offers a roadmap for positive change in the corporate world.

To find out more about Beyond Zero, visit https://beyondzerofilm.com/

To request Beyond Zero on Netflix, ask https://help.netflix.com/en/titlerequest

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang and Brian Tormey.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert, and podcaster from Paris, France.  

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US.  

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For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org 

Want to join in the conversation? 

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives. 

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up! 

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater. 

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

I'm from Prague.

3

Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada.

4

Hi, I'm Oladunji and I'm from Nigeria.

5

Hello, I'm Liki and I live in Paris.

6

Hi, I'm Brian and I'm from New York.

7

Welcome

8

to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

Carbon Conversations for every day, with

9

everyone, from everywhere in the world.

10

In our conversations, we share

ideas, questions, and answers.

11

Perspectives, questions, and things we

can actually do to make a difference.

12

So don't be shy and join our carbon

sessions because it's not too late.

13

Hi, I'm Leakey.

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And hi, I'm Brian and very excited to

be here today with, uh, Nathan Havey,

15

uh, an extraordinary filmmaker who

really creates some impressive products

16

and films that, uh, Um, so Nathan,

we're really excited to have you here

17

and join us on the podcast today.

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Thank you for joining us.

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It's my pleasure.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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Well, I, you know, I've got

a million and one questions.

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I'll start with, I think that for both

myself, leaky and some of the other

23

carbon almanac and carbon collective

podcasters, you know, we, we really

24

got our first introduction to you,

uh, around the film beyond zero.

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Uh, you're really powerful story about

interface and sort of it's the Ray

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Anderson story and on all that stuff.

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Um, why don't you tell us a

little bit about how you first

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came into and found that story?

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I know there's a cool little story in of

how the story got found and then let's

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dive a little bit more into, into sort

of like your entire filmmaking process.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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So the, the, the first time that I

encountered the interface story, I was

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actually reading Ray Anderson's book,

Confessions of a Radical Industrialist.

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I had been a staffer in the U S Congress.

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Um, I'd always wanted to be somebody that

kind of used my working life to create

37

the world that we all believe is possible.

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Um, and I thought that, you

know, the policy process was

39

probably the best way to do that.

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Um, but getting into Washington and

seeing the way that things actually

41

work, I Pretty disillusioned pretty fast.

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And I didn't really know what else to do,

but I knew that that wasn't it for me.

43

Um, and I, right around when I was

leaving, um, I picked up that book and

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I'm in it, you see Ray Anderson, largely

quoting Paul Hawken, talking about

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how there's different kind of dominant

institutions in the world throughout

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human history, you know, at one point

it was religion and the church at one

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point it was state power, but today it

really is business, it's capitalism.

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It organizes the effort of humanity.

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I, it really, uh, makes

the world go around.

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And so if we want to respond to

the great challenges that face us

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right now, um, changing the way

that business works is probably the

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most effective lever that there is.

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And that just really resonated for me.

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It opened up a totally new

way of, of seeing the world.

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And then the interface case is, is a

fantastic example of what one company

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can do that can really revolutionize

a whole industry and beyond.

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And so I, I loved it and then kind

of started to move into business

58

consulting, just try to understand

how it is that companies can make the

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transformation from a run of the mill

for profit competitive enterprise

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to something that's truly visionary.

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Um, and I had, uh, gosh, seven

years later, um, I was running a

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storytelling program and, uh, uh, we

were going to do a show in Atlanta

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and I told my team, I really want

to get somebody from interface.

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And, uh, we ended up having

Erin Mizan, who at the time was

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their head of sustainability,

uh, come and tell her story.

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And, um, and you actually can see a

piece of that evening in the film.

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And so, as she told everything that

Enterprise had been up to since

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after Ray's death, you know, he

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2010, I think, and he died in 2011.

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And so, this is, you know, seven

years later, and they continued

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to just do these amazing things.

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unbelievably world changing things

and I didn't know anything about it.

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And so as Aaron told me all of this,

uh, and then I met some of the other

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interface team that said all the

stuff that wasn't in Ray's book.

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Um, I just sort of saw this hero's

journey, kind of a narrative take shape.

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And I had never made a movie before, but

my father owned a documentary film company

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and I approached him and said, you know,

do you think we could take a shot at this?

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And he said, if you can, Do the deal,

you know, raise the money and get the

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permissions and all that kind of stuff

and maybe we can, um, and so it just

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kind of was one of these ideas that,

that possessed me a little, um, and,

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uh, just kept waiting for the thing

that would say, no, you, this is a

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hurdle that you can't climb over.

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And so the, the film got done and, you

know, now it's in 13 languages and it's

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being used in hundreds of business schools

around the world and it's on airplanes,

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ironically, um, and all kinds of stuff.

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It's been, it's been a hell of a journey.

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It's cool.

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That's, um, uh, so amazing and

we're so glad that there wasn't

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anything that stopped you,

anything that you let stop you.

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I'm sure there were things that

were challenging and hard to

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get past, but you got past them,

so we're very happy about that.

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Um, maybe that's actually an interesting

moment to just, uh, I've got a whole

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other line of questions, but like

double clicking to that for a second,

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what were some of those challenges

that you bumped into any stories

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around some of those things that you

might share with our audience and

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sort of the perseverance through it?

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Yeah, I mean, the first thing was just,

you know, what the pitch is to, so the,

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the, the only way that we knew we could do

the doc is that I knew that interface had

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been filming for a long time, uh, they,

they'd filmed all of their big stuff.

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And so I knew that they had

a huge corporate archive.

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And so when I went to them to

say, I want to try to make a

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new documentary film about the

interface story, um, the pitch was.

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I don't want to dime.

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Um, it needs to be independently funded.

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All I need is unfettered access to your

archive and it has to be independent.

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And you know, at that time,

I'd never made a movie.

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Um, I was largely still, I

am a total no name director.

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Um, and so it was sort of like, well, I

mean, what's the worst that could happen.

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And it was Aaron Meezan, uh, who

shepherded us through that process.

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And it's actually funny because

it was about last year, Aaron

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has since left to take a major

role in sustainability at JLL.

112

And, uh, the chief counsel at interface

wrote me and said, we're having a hard

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time finding the copy of the deal that you

signed, gave you access to our archive.

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I said, well, cause there isn't

one, uh, Aaron and I just had a

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handshake and they're like, you what?

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Um, and so, uh, we.

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You know, have now, uh, solidified all

that and made it, made it all good,

118

but it's like right there, uh, you

know, the sort of courage of Aaron

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Meezan to take a chance because we

had, we had, you know, known each other

120

for a couple of years at that point.

121

There was a high degree of trust about the

intentions and what was going to happen.

122

Um, and so it was, uh, it

was this sort of lucked out.

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Because I think if lawyers had

gotten involved at that early

124

stage, it never would have happened.

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Obviously, that's one of them.

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That was kind of just a fun serendipity.

127

And the other was just raising

the, raising the funds.

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And so I, I had a couple of consulting

relationships, uh, where, you know, CEOs

129

that had some means and they were willing

to give some seed funding to help us get

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the, you know, the beginning of it done.

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And the first scene that we were able to

cut was that, um, you know, towards the

132

beginning of the film, there's, you know,

133

which is the day that Ray Anderson came

in and he gave that unbelievable speech,

134

challenging their eco task force, uh, to

actually create a regenerative company.

135

Um, it's a super, super cool

scene, but that's all we have.

136

Um, and so I later was able

to attend a big, um, it's the

137

conscious capitalism CEO summit.

138

And, uh, uh, I was hoping to sort

of meet people there that could

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help to, to fund the rest of the

projects, but I hadn't had any luck.

140

And, uh, an advisor of mine, um, uh,

her name is Laura Hall and she's a

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big leader, uh, in San Diego trying

to transform business like this.

142

She and I were at dinner and she said,

Nathan, why are you being so like shy?

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Just go up to the conference

organizer, tell her you have a very

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powerful bit of film and ask if

they'll put it on the main stage.

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And I never thought about

doing anything as bold as that.

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Um, but I was like, I mean,

what do I have to lose?

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And so I went up and showed up and

it's later, there was a hole in the

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program and they said, get up there.

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Uh, and so I was able to do a one

minute intro and we played the clip.

150

And in the audience was somebody

who had been totally inspired by Ray

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Anderson a decade before had transformed

his business to be one of the major

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leaders in FSC certified lumber.

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That's a bill Hayward from Hayward lumber.

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And he asked me to have coffee

with him the next morning.

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And he said, how much do

you need to finish it?

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I told him the number and he

said, I think I can do that.

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Wow, that's, I mean, I love all the

moments of sort of serendipity happening

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there and like things coming together,

uh, and, and maybe, maybe the, the

159

outcome would have been different,

but, but similar even through a

160

different pathway, but this pathway

sounds pretty, pretty interesting.

161

Excited.

162

I'm glad.

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I'm glad that Laurie nudged you and

you're bold and made the move and.

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You know, and it's it's great.

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I started my career in the timber

industry and the lumber industry

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I worked in a lumber mill for

years and and it's really cool.

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I didn't know that tidbit about this

film There was actually like a lumber

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company that helped create some funding

to get you going, you know, like

169

so that's actually Personally cool.

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That's wonderful.

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Yeah.

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Um Well, you know, I want to ask this,

we've got so many different topics we

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want to dive into today with you on the

topic of the film, uh, of specifically

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beyond zero, the way it's set up

and, and, you know, I'll share this.

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Um, like I've used it with my

employees as a film where I'll watch

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together and then talk about both.

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How do we set big goals and

move towards big goals together,

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irrespective of environmentalism, right?

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Just like the topic of

moving towards big goals.

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And then additionally, or maybe in a

primary fan fashion, um, how do we make

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our company Following these particular

footsteps of becoming, you know,

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regenerative and, and stuff in, in sort

of our own business and things that

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we're in and, and our, the challenge for

the business I'm in, in a daily fashion

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is far less of a challenge to make

that conversion than interface, right?

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Than, than the, the nature of carpet and

glues and delivered product and that,

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you know, polyester, all this, all this

stuff that they overcame is far bigger.

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And the business I'm in.

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And so that itself is

almost an inspiring thing.

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You know, it's like, well, if they can

do it, we ought to be able to do this.

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Right.

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Totally.

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Right.

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So I'm so I think one of the things that

if we're talking up here to our audience

194

and thinking a little bit about sort of

this intentionalness within businesses and

195

using businesses as that modern religion,

as you sort of said, to like drive change

196

forward, how do our audience members

that are either Or leaders or owners or

197

operators or, you know, how do they engage

with beyond zero give a little bit of the

198

mechanicals and logistics here because I

think it's it's useful to the audience to

199

understand this, like, how do they go use

this inspirational film to help people?

200

bring about change in the broader

world through the company they're

201

at or they have connectivity

to or are they're leading?

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Totally.

203

And there's, um, uh, the, the answer

to that question, uh, tactically,

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uh, depends on where they are.

205

Um, what we've been really fortunate

to attract about a dozen, um, kind of

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geographical distribution partners.

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Um, and so in, uh, in Europe, uh,

there's a, a different group that's

208

leading the charge there, uh, Australia,

Hong Kong, and mainland China.

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Thailand, Korea.

210

Um, so it, it, it, um, uh, if

they go to beyond zero film.

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com, uh, they'll sort of

find the local, uh, person.

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And then each of those folks has

a slightly different approach,

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uh, for basically how you get

some of the design principles.

214

In the interface journey, uh, teased

out so that companies can really take

215

a look at, um, you know, some of,

some of the really important things,

216

as you said, um, you know, interface

is an environmental story, but the

217

principles in it, uh, can actually be

used to, to chase any, uh, you know,

218

we, we use the phrase worthy purpose.

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Something that is big and bold

and important in the world.

220

Um, and certainly there's plenty

to do on the environmental front,

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but there's a lot to do on, on sort

of social, uh, factors as well.

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Um, and, and major technical

challenges and other things.

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So, um, the, the, the basic way

though, is that if, if a company

224

wants to use the film, it's, it's

a fantastic tool to expand the.

225

I guess the scope of what people

are willing to talk about when you

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look at what is our big vision?

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What is our big, bold thing that

this company is going to be for?

228

Um, is most people have been trained in

sort of the, the business understanding

229

that you never want to set a goal

that you don't know you can hit.

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Right.

231

Cause it would be embarrassing if

you fell short and, um, the interface

232

case is exactly the opposite.

233

Uh, it is that when you, when you, when

you set a goal that, you know, you cannot

234

hit that, you know, you don't even,

you don't even know how to get there.

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That's the thing that

actually inspires people.

236

That's the thing that drives dramatic

innovation, uh, that, that has people

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really plug in and, and want to come

in and do it and, and, There's, this is

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different than like a, a ridiculous growth

target or, you know, being the market

239

leader when you're not even, you know,

when you, when you, when you, when you

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don't have any, it's different than that.

241

It's, it really is based on again,

this worthy problem, you know, there's,

242

there's something in the world that

really needs doing and darn it.

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We're going to see that it

happens, not quote, do our part.

244

But we're actually going to own that.

245

We're going to make this new

way of doing things possible.

246

And, and that kind of, um, vision,

uh, that kind of, uh, you know,

247

throw your hat over the wall so

that you have to climb that wall

248

and see what's on the other side.

249

That's the magic in this.

250

Uh, but it's not a initiative.

251

Uh, it's not a side project.

252

It's not a, you know, something

that you can partner with a

253

nonprofit and throw some money at.

254

Um, the real magic here is that

this is the thing that becomes

255

what your company is for.

256

Um, and when, when a company can really

do that, uh, it, it, it unlocks this,

257

um, potential, uh, that, that is really,

really good for business actually.

258

Um, and so there's no trade off here.

259

Uh, and it's, it's a really,

it's a really cool framework.

260

And so when companies are using the

film, they then can get into some of

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these conversations about, um, What they

could do, uh, that would be as big and

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as bold and as frankly advantageous.

263

Uh, and so, um, you can either sort of do

a screening within the company and, and,

264

um, try to get that conversation going.

265

Um, or you can work with, you

know, a number of different,

266

uh, facilitators or consultants.

267

There is a workshop now, um, that's

called solving the impossible, uh,

268

that companies can go through to try

to really gin up a lot of these things

269

and lay out the basics of what the, the

elements of a major plan would need to be.

270

Uh, we believe that If the film is

really inspiring, uh, and people

271

absolutely love it, but nothing

changes, uh, then it wasn't worth it.

272

That's just entertainment.

273

Uh, and so we really are committed that,

that we want to try to see what needs to

274

go with the film, uh, to really have it

make a, uh, a demonstrable impact on the,

275

the way that business works in the world.

276

Yeah, no, that's great.

277

And I think one of the things

I loved about it, right.

278

So like, you know, living and working in

sort of a corporate and business world

279

for my professional career, it was the

allowance to like, also focus on a goal

280

that wasn't, Um, not only did you not

know if you could achieve it and whatever,

281

and it was impactful and meaningful,

but it was also like very longitudinal,

282

like very like the, we can't even begin

to think that this will happen near

283

term, like we all can acknowledge that.

284

And so we're going to embark on

something that we know will take

285

us not, not months, not quarters,

not years, but decades, right.

286

To like, get there and, and be.

287

Committed to the consistency

that that requires, right?

288

Cause then that, if you, if you allow

yourself into that kind of category,

289

you, you take off the nearness of

the goals as a filter, the things you

290

can go try to accomplish and achieve

all of a sudden, like there's new

291

things that show up and are available

to you in what your goals can be.

292

Exactly.

293

Um, and I think there's, um, you know,

to use Ray Anderson's language on

294

this, Uh, you know, he talked about.

295

Compliance is not a vision, and I think

there's a lot of companies, especially

296

as I think this is actually a good thing,

you know, as the Europeans are really

297

leading and trying to figure out the

right metrics, the right standards, all of

298

that is great, and companies really risk

being in the game of trying to comply.

299

With the ever increasing bar on the

regulatory environment here versus, as you

300

said, setting the like, boy, it, you know,

in a, in a, what, if we had 30 years or

301

20, you know, and, and we really wanted to

achieve something that just is impossible.

302

today.

303

What would that thing be?

304

And I think it's really

important to have that vision.

305

But interestingly, the other thing

that's on the cutting room floor,

306

uh, from the interface story is,

um, Connie Hensler is one of the

307

great, uh, characters in the film.

308

And she's, you know, one of the technical

minds that really helped them to, to

309

unlock a few of their major innovations.

310

But she told me that at one point, um,

interface had set a target, uh, you know,

311

this, this mission zero concept, um, and

that came from the marketing department.

312

Yeah.

313

Um, and as an engineer and a scientist,

uh, she really took issue with zero.

314

Uh, it's a physical impossibility.

315

There is no zero.

316

Like there, it just,

it's not gonna happen.

317

Um, and so she really got

hung up on it for a long time.

318

And, and, uh, you know, from a, from

a, a dreaming and a vision statement.

319

I mean, yeah, what you want to, let's

save half the whales, you know, it's,

320

it doesn't have the same rate, you

know, but, but, uh, but there is both

321

the need for that big hairy long term

vision, you know, the summiting of Mount

322

sustainability and interfaces parlance.

323

Um, but then there's also the sort

of operational practicalities of it.

324

And the way that it finally clicked

for Connie was that her boss

325

said, Connie, I agree with you,

but right now let's focus on 50%.

326

Right.

327

What would it take to

cut our impact in half?

328

And how fast could we do it?

329

And that for her brain went, Oh, well,

that, yeah, we could, that we could do.

330

We'd have to bop, bop, bop,

And then that drove thing.

331

And so there is like this, there's

the far term, the super long term

332

thing and the practical milestones.

333

What do we need to do this year?

334

You know, that, that's the other piece of

it that I think a lot of people miss when

335

they set these big crazy things that it

really does need to get baked into the,

336

the quarter by quarter planning, right?

337

Doing the incentive structures, uh, for

executives and for factory floor people.

338

And, you know, there's a lot of sort of

practical change management stuff in this

339

also, uh, that is critically important.

340

But when you have that practical

change management stuff animated

341

by the big impossible thing, I

think that's where the magic is.

342

I think that the film interface is very

inspiring, at least it inspired me a

343

lot because, um, I, I shouldn't admit

that I'm a little bit, I was actually,

344

I was a little bit skeptical about big

companies being able to transform from

345

within, and, um, and I think, um, and I

think it's because I'm a little bit biased

346

because I've worked in various small

companies in the battery industry, but,

347

um, but I think interface when this, when

Ray Anderson involved the whole company

348

into his journey, he was a leader in

the, in the U S in the corporate market.

349

Right.

350

Yeah, so I'm, I'm curious, what

is, according to you, what are the

351

challenges that stop other companies, a

lot of companies, of course, and other

352

companies in the same industry and

in other industries to embark and to

353

start this journey of transformation?

354

I think that, um, so just one, one

nuanced point is that, uh, my, my

355

understanding of the carbon mark, or

excuse me, the carpet market, uh, in,

356

in, uh, in the U S and globally is that,

uh, there's, there's a lot of bigger

357

companies that do a lot of things.

358

Uh, in interior finishings

and all kinds of stuff.

359

And then, uh, carpet is a division or

flooring is a division of what they do.

360

So there are much larger companies

than Interface that are out there.

361

They may even have more market

share in flooring specifically.

362

Uh, but Interface is just flooring.

363

Um, and so that was kind of the,

the, uh, the innovation for them.

364

Um, And so as a, like a just

flooring company, uh, yeah,

365

they, they had been fortune 500.

366

Um, and so they were a major player, if

not the market leader, uh, for, for most

367

of their history and they still are.

368

Um, but to your question about, uh,

you know, for, for a lot of companies,

369

what is the thing that stops them?

370

Um, I think that there's a

really important distinction

371

between, um, companies that

are publicly traded and not.

372

So, um, interface, uh, is, was

publicly traded and Ray Anderson had

373

a controlling stake in the shares.

374

And so he did not actually have

a, a, a real risk of an investor

375

revolt that would oust him.

376

Uh, if you look at Danone, um, there, uh,

was trying to be a Ray Anderson kind of a

377

character, uh, but, uh, did not, uh, did

not get it right with making sure that the

378

investors were lockstep behind the vision

and they did indeed it oust him, uh,

379

for trying to do some of the stuff that

would have been like Danone's version of

380

the same kind of transformational stuff.

381

Another great case is Paul Pullman

at Unilever, uh, where, um, one of

382

the things that he did the day he was

hired, literally the day he was hired,

383

he told Wall Street that Unilever would

no longer be doing quarterly reporting.

384

And, uh, he knew that that was, that

was essential to buy him time to be

385

able to make some of the longer term

important investments, uh, that, you

386

know, I think that in many ways, Unilever

is a great leader on this stuff now.

387

Are they, uh, unimpeachable?

388

No, nobody is perfect.

389

But, uh, they've really done a

ton and that's largely because,

390

uh, Paul Pullman was able to get

them out of the quarterly earnings

391

game as a publicly traded company.

392

And the reason he did it on his first

day, he jokes, is that he, he knew that

393

they couldn't fire him on his first day

394

and the rest is kind of history for that.

395

So.

396

Uh, those anecdotes are that

for publicly traded companies,

397

there are tremendous hurdles.

398

A lot of the investments that

you make, a lot of the strategies

399

that you would undertake, they

pay off in years, not quarters.

400

Um, and so if you have investors that are

really holding your feet in the fire on

401

your quarterly performance, there are, um,

additional complexities, not impossible.

402

about the first third of the

sustainability journey for most

403

companies is actually waste elimination.

404

And so it is directly in line

with increasing profits and with

405

creating a sounder business.

406

And so that's not a, um, that's

not, it's not a nonstarter.

407

It's just that, uh, the margin for

error in a publicly traded company,

408

especially one that is subject to

quarterly earnings is Uh, much, much

409

smaller than it is for other companies.

410

And so that's a thing, but even for

the companies that are not publicly

411

traded, uh, for private companies,

um, you still have the same thing.

412

Um, it's, it's this matter of getting

everybody really, truly, honestly on

413

board with this is what we are for,

uh, because so much of the, I guess the

414

water in which business people swim,

um, has, you know, for the last, uh,

415

50 years, especially been very much

in the, you know, profit maximization

416

is the purpose for business period.

417

Right.

418

And there is a way that, that, you

know, uh, aligning business with the

419

life support systems of earth, uh, and

with, you know, the, the things that

420

we need to preserve a, a, a robust

and just society, uh, those things are

421

good for profit over the long term.

422

But, uh, there are virtually no business

leaders that have had formal training

423

that have great understanding of the

way that you lead companies that way.

424

And so for anybody that's going to try it,

um, there is so much swimming upstream.

425

Even with your own executive teams,

uh, to try to get people aligned

426

with the dynamics of the way that an

interface like story can manifest.

427

Uh, so it is just a constant

educational challenge, and Ray

428

Anderson lucked into doing it right.

429

Because he had largely stepped out as the

functional CEO when this journey began

430

for him, uh, there was a, a successor era

parent that was there helping to run the

431

company and do all the business stuff.

432

And so it really freight freed Ray up to

be the sort of scholar philosopher, CEO

433

with a lot of time to really read and

then translate and then present again and

434

again, and again, and again, the work.

435

The imperative for why interface had

to do this, and it really became, uh,

436

it became the culture, uh, and, and,

and with, with any less investment than

437

that, I don't think it would have worked.

438

And interestingly, um, this again is

on the cutting room floor, but the

439

person that was the heir apparent

that was hired in to run all things

440

interface, um, he went along with it.

441

But in 1999, uh, he did something

that's under an NDA, uh, so

442

I can't go into it too much.

443

Uh, but he did something that showed

that, uh, he actually was still

444

playing the game of maximizing exit

instead of achieving the mission.

445

And, uh, uh, he, uh, Ray and he had a,

a, a, a really intense, uh, conversation.

446

And, uh, 48 hours later he was gone.

447

And, uh, uh, they had to figure

out, that's what sort of started

448

the search for the new CEO.

449

Wow.

450

And that's where Dan s comes

in a couple years later.

451

Um, and so even there, even there,

the amount of investment it takes to

452

make sure that your executive team

gets and is able to embody, uh, this

453

higher purpose, this other thing

that your company is trying to do.

454

Um, it, it is, it is, it is the most

frequent thing that people get wrong.

455

You know, it's interesting

inside the company I'm part of.

456

Uh, I sold my company into

what is a fortune 500 company.

457

So I'm now part of this very, you know,

a similar kind of large thing with, which

458

has all these, you know, maybe these

dynamics that you're referring to Nathan.

459

And one of the reasons why I love the

parent company I work with is that we've

460

got an internal motto, which is we take

care of our people, meaning sort of

461

our staff and employees and coworkers.

462

Our people take care of our customers.

463

Our customers take care

of our profits, right?

464

And sort of this, like we started

to think and hearing you tell this

465

story, like, and thinking about the

water, we're all swimming in, in the

466

business world, all that kind of stuff.

467

I, I almost like envisioned this three

part thing, which I think is its own

468

version of revolutionary in many other

businesses where we just focus on the

469

profits right first, and then maybe

we take care of the customers and then

470

maybe a company takes care of its people.

471

Right.

472

But I love how our company has that

inverted, but now maybe there's like a

473

fourth version, a fourth layer to this.

474

It's like we take care of our planet,

our planet takes care of our people, our

475

people take care of our customers, our

customers take care of our profits, right?

476

Like, like I'm envisioning this like

fourth layer getting added into this, like

477

staging in this, like, anyway, No, no, no.

478

I just want to double click on that.

479

Is that the, the, um, there are.

480

I mean, scores of right approaches

for how companies can get this.

481

It's, it's not a one size

fits all thing at all.

482

Uh, and so what you just articulated,

I think is, is absolutely the kind of

483

thing that people are experimenting

with and needing to play with.

484

And, you know, we've, we've had

200 some years to get financial

485

capitalism as dialed in as it is.

486

Um, and we're only 30 maybe years

into how we get ecological capitalism

487

dialed into the same degree.

488

And the thing is, they're not

mutually exclusive at all.

489

In fact, they really go well together.

490

And the companies that try

to lead this, uh, I think are

491

the ones that win the future.

492

Uh, but, um, it's, it's

a lot of invention.

493

It's a lot of figuring it out right now.

494

And, and, and we're, we're, it's way

easier than it was when interface did it.

495

Uh, but, but there's still, there's

still a great need for companies to

496

get in the game, uh, and, and figure

out how to do this in their industries.

497

Yeah, very much so.

498

I would like to switch gear a little

bit to, um, the, to the concept

499

of stakeholder capitalism because,

um, where I am in Europe, we have

500

a lot of discussions at they're

happening, those discussions happening

501

at the EU level about capitalism.

502

Maybe, you know.

503

Um, capitalism is the source of all evil.

504

Maybe we should switch another model.

505

And, um, and that's, you know, um,

that's, that's, I don't know how is

506

the discussion is in, uh, in the US.

507

I believe it's not as, um, as strong

as it, it is in, in, um, in Europe.

508

Um, yeah, tell us a little bit

about, or what's the concept

509

of stakeholder capitalism is.

510

Sure.

511

Yeah.

512

Um, uh, I think, So this, this goes by

many names, um, and, and, uh, a lot of

513

people get hung up on the nomenclature.

514

Uh, and so, um, in the U.

515

S.

516

in particular, um, there's a lot of,

um, uh, I guess politicization of

517

some of these terms, uh, and people

get hooked on, um, their version

518

or their conception of what it is.

519

Um, and, and in my opinion, throw

the baby out with the bathwater.

520

Um, and so, um, ESG in particular,

uh, is, is, is something that is a

521

very hot button political, uh, uh,

language now in the United States.

522

Um, and so you see all these reports

saying that ESG was a fad and it's over.

523

Um, and my.

524

You know, that is actually the language

of ESG is over because it's distracting.

525

Um, and, uh, the intentions

behind it are, are still there.

526

And so what are those intentions?

527

Um, the way that I, and this is if

I may, I'll share something that

528

is literally a work in progress

in the last couple of weeks here.

529

Uh, but we're trying to find

the right articulation for it.

530

And so, um, I've been working with

a team of folks for years to try to,

531

to Figure out what the language is.

532

And so whether we call it stakeholder

capitalism or regenerative capitalism

533

or conscious capitalism, or, you

know, not capitalism, but still

534

business, you know, I don't care.

535

I don't care.

536

Uh, you know, B labs, benefit

corporations, all of that, all of

537

that are variations on a theme.

538

They're all valuable.

539

Uh, uh, but what is it?

540

Uh, and I don't know that there's

great agreement on that yet.

541

Um, I think that, uh, the way that we're

trying to talk about it is that, um,

542

Well, here's the way we're doing it.

543

Is, uh, we call it the story of business.

544

And, uh, the story of business

is in its third pivotal act.

545

And we don't know how it's going to go.

546

The first act, uh, showed sort of the

very beginnings of, of capitalism, of,

547

uh, people understanding how you raise

capital, uh, and deploy revenue models

548

to be able to solve important challenges.

549

Uh, you know, the very first instances

of a corporation were things like

550

building a bridge over a river, um, to,

you know, make it easier for people to

551

get from one side of town to another.

552

Um, so, you know, we had that.

553

Uh, you know, five, 600 years ago.

554

Um, and so that was act one and

we figured out, well, shit, this

555

is a great way to organize effort.

556

You know, this is, this, this works.

557

Uh, and then in act two, uh, the

industrial revolution supercharges

558

those things, uh, to frankly create,

uh, a population explosion in the world.

559

Uh, and even with the population

explosion, we had a higher

560

average quality of life, uh, than

humanity had ever seen before.

561

You know, and you know, the, the, you

know, poverty is going down in, in ways.

562

And, you know, you could, you could

definitely nitpick on a lot of that

563

kind of stuff, but, but, but on balance,

life expectancy explodes and there's

564

massive progress, massive prosperity.

565

Um, and, uh, there were harms.

566

That started to become apparent and,

and at first, uh, they were easy enough

567

to paper over because of some of those

great gains and all that kind of stuff,

568

but, but they accrue and they accrue

and, uh, uh, enter sort of the third act,

569

uh, where, uh, you have, you know, this

runaway growth and prosperity and all

570

that kind of stuff, but the harms now

are actually growing faster, uh, than,

571

uh, Uh, the prosperity and the growth.

572

And so the third act, uh, will tell

us, um, that fortunately, uh, about

573

30 years ago, uh, maybe 40, uh, there

were some people who saw this and they

574

started to try to figure out how it is

that business can, um, Incorporate the

575

harms or or the way we actually are

languaging it is that there are five

576

core harms that were created that that

we really need to address and there is a

577

way to flip each of those harms into An

actual benefit that is both beneficial

578

for society and is actually beneficial

for the financial performance of a

579

company So we know how to do it But, uh,

the number of folks that have actually

580

truly retooled and, and, and respond

to their companies to take advantage of

581

those opportunities and mitigate those

harms, uh, is, is nowhere near where

582

we would need to be for it to happen.

583

And so we are in a race right now

in the third act to find out whether

584

business will use its great talents

and strengths to rise to meet the

585

future as it rises up to meet us,

or if the comfort of the status quo.

586

Will be too lulling for us and

we'll miss our chance to do so.

587

And so, uh, how that story ends up

playing out, uh, depends on, uh,

588

frankly, your listeners and what they

choose to do with this kind of stuff.

589

Right.

590

Um, and so anyway, so

that's, that's the narrative.

591

And then, uh, very briefly, uh, the five.

592

harms to opportunities are, um,

we've built in a way, the first one

593

is we've built in a way, uh, that,

that is not biomimetic in nature.

594

Uh, we have, we have sort of

tried to control and dominate

595

net nature and natural systems

and processes to our detriment.

596

Um, but in those natural systems and

processes, is the design solutions.

597

There's the stuff that would actually have

everything we do work so, so much better.

598

And, you know, in Beyond Zero, we see

a couple of great examples of this.

599

But it's from harming nature to learning

from nature as guide to help you to

600

design the future of regenerative health.

601

Kind of capitalism.

602

Um, and when companies get this

right, they supercharge innovation.

603

They figure out how to do

things amazingly efficiently.

604

Um, and then as the market increasingly

demands those kinds of solutions,

605

they're the ones that will be there.

606

So to, uh, to your point, Brian, about

sort of taking care of people, um, the,

607

the workplace, uh, was set up in a way

that is actually really bad for people.

608

psychologically, emotionally,

it's not, it's not good.

609

Um, and so there's tremendous harm,

uh, that happens when people live, you

610

know, 40 hours a week in a relatively

rigid, hierarchical, top down kind of

611

a workplace, um, that has all kinds

of ripple effects in our communities.

612

Um, but, um, You can flip that and you

can actually figure out how workplace

613

culture can, by its very design, help

people to become the best, truest,

614

greatest versions of themselves.

615

And when you do that, the thing

that you pointed to happens.

616

You take care of your people, People will

then take care of customers, or if it's

617

not so much a customer facing business,

they'll take care of the innovation,

618

they'll take care of the revenues,

they'll take care of, right, and we're

619

seeing this, um, KKR, uh, actually, the,

the giant Wall Street investment firm,

620

um, is going Is is in the process of

converting its entire portfolio to an

621

employee ownership model, uh, with the

cultural transformations that come with

622

that because they're starting to see that

when, when, when the goal of the company

623

is actually raising up and building

people, uh, the company outperforms.

624

And so even from a hard nosed venture

capitalist, you know, uh, perspective,

625

this is, this is a way that you

flip the harm to become a benefit.

626

Closely related, but, but distinct.

627

The third one is, uh, the sort of notion

that you minimize costs and funnel

628

all profits to the ownership class of

the company, um, is self defeating.

629

It creates tremendous poverty.

630

It creates, you know, we've

seen this again and again.

631

Um, and so if you actually

pay attention to making sure

632

that your entire supply chain.

633

Has enough, uh, that they can, you know,

not just survive, but they can get ahead,

634

uh, and, and make sure that they share

fairly in the creation of value all the

635

way down to the raw materials producers.

636

Um, the Mars corporation has actually

shown this empirically that that

637

actually creates greater and more

stable financial returns over time.

638

And there's a number of companies

that are really trying to

639

figure out how to do that.

640

So that's three.

641

Four is that largely because of, um,

Uh, I will use, uh, maybe insensitive

642

language on this, but, uh, racist

legacies of colonialism and our

643

histories all around the world.

644

Uh, there are still these legacy ways that

we are taught to see the world, um, that

645

create these systems of discrimination

in which we are all complicit.

646

And if we are proactive in figuring

out how we can break down those

647

systems of discrimination, there are

phenomenal opportunities that exist

648

for companies that can pull that off.

649

But in being complicit, unconsciously

often, uh, you, you propagate

650

the harm, but boy, if you can

figure it out, it's different.

651

And so another example here is there's

a, um, in the United States, uh, you

652

know, we, uh, we have, uh, a huge,

Uh, prison population and people

653

that are formerly incarcerated.

654

I think it's, it's worse than

anywhere else in the world.

655

And, and, you know, practically

speaking, you know, you do

656

the crime, you do your time.

657

And after that, we're supposed to be

good, but we're not because if you

658

have a felony on your resume, uh,

you are basically consigned to be a

659

permanent underclass in this country.

660

Uh, and the, the, the people that the,

the, the wasted Talent, the wasted

661

innovation, the kind of people that

could become the great new inventors

662

and innovators and managers and

all that kind of stuff that we just

663

write off in a paper cut in our H.

664

R.

665

Systems.

666

That's the kind of thing

we're talking about.

667

It's just not smart.

668

And the early adopter companies

that are figuring this out.

669

They're finding these talent pools

that there's no competition for And

670

there, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a,

it's a phenomenal advantage right now.

671

Right?

672

So that's, that's four.

673

And then five is, um, there is this notion

of, um, maximizing your own advantage and

674

minimizing your own risk in transacting.

675

And this is largely driven

by, uh, business law.

676

Uh, but it's something that just, it's

the, what you're supposed to do, right?

677

Uh, but the thing is when you

actually get lawyers involved,

678

it often destroys relationships.

679

Uh, and relationship is the thing that

actually makes the world go round.

680

And so if you can, so figuratively

speaking, if you've got people on the

681

opposite side of a table, each seeking

to maximize their own advantage, that

682

system produces far, far poorer results

than the one where you can actually sit

683

next to each other on the same side of the

table, both look at what it is that you're

684

trying to achieve, and figure out how you

can add the most value for each other.

685

Um, uh, that that's a little bit,

um, poetic, but the implications of

686

the way that a company structures

everything it does throughout

687

its supply chain, its employees,

everything it does, it's a state shift.

688

And so those are the five sort of

business as usual harms that if

689

we flip that around, then I think

that's actually how you would create

690

a regenerative form of capitalism.

691

And I know this was a very long

answer to the question about, um, you

692

know, what stakeholder capitalism is.

693

And I guess I would offer as

definition those five elements

694

for I don't care what we call it.

695

Those are the things that actually

make tremendous business sense that

696

also help to flip the harms that we

have caused unintentionally often,

697

uh, and actually create the kind of

capitalism that we would need to build

698

the world that we know is possible.

699

Oh my goodness, Nathan.

700

Uh, boy, I'm going to be chewing on that.

701

That's like such a nutrient rich.

702

caloric feast of knowledge that like

I don't need to eat anything in my

703

brain for the next week and I'm good.

704

Like maybe the next month I just like just

those five nuggets you fed me for a week.

705

I'm glad it resonates.

706

You know, we've been working on various

articulations of that for five years

707

to try to figure out the right way

to put it and try to get it clean.

708

And it's still way too long

and way too complicated.

709

But we are continuing to we're

continuing to try to figure it out.

710

Yeah, no, that's, um, you know, I,

I, I love, sometimes we need right

711

for, for consuming of complex ideas.

712

We need them broken into consumable

pieces with little anecdotal

713

pieces and, and things behind them.

714

And it's hard to take so many things

that there's so many new things with so

715

many nuances and put them into a couple

buckets because nothing fits perfectly

716

squarely inside any one bucket, but.

717

But I, I, I think you've done

a beautiful job with that.

718

So very good work after

five years of effort.

719

Me and, and a lot of, a lot of other

people, a lot of sparring partners

720

and folks trying to figure it out.

721

It's a group effort.

722

I think if, if our listeners want to

have, um, stories about what the, the

723

five, the five principles that you

just mentioned, they should go and

724

listen to the, your podcast series.

725

Oh, that is called.

726

10 things you should know

about stakeholder capitalism.

727

It's beautifully produced.

728

The stories are really compelling.

729

And you really, it's um, you

know, it's when you talk about,

730

um, the, um, racism and legacy.

731

I, you know, there's one episode on

that topic, uh, when you talk about,

732

you know, uh, the legal part of it,

there's one, uh, there's one episode,

733

one story, because it's beautifully

told, stories are beautifully told.

734

And so I really, really encourage

our listeners and, and Brian, if

735

you haven't listened to this podcast

series, you should really go.

736

And then that will be a very, very long

explanation or illustration of the five

737

principles that you've just mentioned.

738

Am I right?

739

That's right.

740

It's based around those.

741

Um, I think that we've sharpened the

edges a little bit on exactly what

742

they are and why they're good for

business and sort of this notion of the

743

harm that happens in normal business.

744

Um, we, we don't have, anyway.

745

As you say, uh, it, it, it was, it was an

earlier attempt at all this kind of stuff.

746

And it is, it is, um, uh, for,

for listeners that are looking

747

for actual business cases of, of

what this looks like in practice.

748

Um, we, we, we tried to serve those

up as best we could in that series.

749

And it's, it's, it's pretty fun, but

yeah, the, the 10 things you should

750

know about stakeholder capitalism.

751

Yeah.

752

Because I was, I was listening to

this episodes when I was running

753

and, Oh, wow, they can do now.

754

There are people doing this and

yes, yeah, that's a great idea.

755

And I think that's, it's a

very great companion while

756

you're running or whatever.

757

That's great.

758

Uh, I have not found this podcast series

yet, but I am excited to go listen to it.

759

You love it.

760

I'm, I'm definitely gonna love it.

761

And, you know, I want to go back to

something you said there, sort of in

762

the beginning where you were sort of

talking about this, this, um, third stage

763

or third, um, act of, of capitalism.

764

Right.

765

And I'm in the midst of, um, rereading

Thomas Friedman's Hot, Flat and

766

Crowded, a very interesting book

from, uh, it was right before the

767

financial crash here in the US.

768

So, um, Uh, six, 15, 16 years

old, something like that.

769

Um, crazy stuff.

770

It was that long ago.

771

And it's, it's interesting to get in

there and be looking at where Right.

772

So out of that 30 to 40 years, this is a

book on these topics from like 15 years

773

ago, like, and, and looking through how

they're talking about maybe the same

774

topics and how do we change business and

things 15 years ago and, and what needs

775

to happen, all this kind of stuff and

see what has changed and sort of like

776

be comparing that with the experience I

have today versus what hasn't changed.

777

You know, and things, um, I want to go

maybe in sort of, you know, your, your,

778

your experience in storytelling and

in sort of, you know, pulling together

779

these complicated nuanced topics, you

know, you, you and, and, uh, have done

780

many other beyond, in addition to beyond

zero, I almost said beyond, beyond zero,

781

um, you've, you've created all these

other sort of interesting, compelling

782

stories, You know, and I think you really

get comfortable getting into the weeds

783

and finding, The arc of the story in

a way that for the user, and I'll say

784

this, I was, I was watching beyond zero.

785

You mentioned earlier that

it was on planes and I was

786

flying on a plane and I saw it.

787

I said, Oh, of course

I'm watching this, right?

788

And the person next to me at a couple

of times, I'm like sobbing, uh,

789

on the plane while watching this.

790

And the person next to me checked in

with me to see if I was okay, if I

791

was emotionally like, are you okay?

792

Like what's going on?

793

You're watching.

794

I don't know what you're watching.

795

I think it's about carpet.

796

Uh, why, why are you crying about carpet?

797

Like tears are pouring off your face.

798

What's going on?

799

Like, are you okay?

800

And, um, but so you tell these like

stories that like, I mean, really can

801

pull at the heartstrings in a, in a way.

802

And they're not necessarily

about things that are the classic

803

tear jerker kind of things.

804

And so I want to ask you like any, you

know, commentary or tips and advice as

805

we, many of us who are listening to this

podcast and sort of involved in this

806

carbon collective side of things and

the carbon almanac, or like we, we have.

807

Want to go use storytelling power

to go help influence other people

808

to Think about and perceive and

consider things differently and maybe

809

choose an act differently Any tips

and advice and guidance and wisdom

810

to share with us and our listeners.

811

Yeah, um So I guess

there's two things on that.

812

Um, and and the first one is, uh, I guess

just a belief um personal belief, um, I It

813

Well, I'll share an anecdote.

814

Um, I was a theater major

in my undergraduate.

815

Uh, and so I've always, I've

always been interested in stories.

816

Um, I'll admit that in the beginning

it was cause it was fun to have

817

an audience of people applaud you.

818

Uh, so it's good.

819

It's good for the ego, you know?

820

Uh, but, but I had to take it

when I was in college, uh, where

821

we, we got to stage a play.

822

Um, It's called the Laramie Project, and

it is a documentary play where a team

823

from New York went to Laramie in the

aftermath of Matthew Shepard's murder.

824

And you remember, he's a gay kid

that got abducted by some people at

825

a bar, and they tied him to a fence,

and he was there and ended up dying.

826

It was a major kind of national flashpoint

story, um, in, in the gay rights movement.

827

And so this team from New York comes

and they interview people in the town

828

about their various perspectives on this.

829

And then they wrote that into a play and

it, it, it, it had been off Broadway.

830

Um, but I went to school in Greeley,

Colorado, which is, um, a couple hours

831

south of where, uh, This happened

in Laramie, Wyoming, and, uh, we

832

decided to stage that play in Greeley.

833

Um, uh, and it was, it was at the

time, it's the closest the play

834

had ever been staged to Laramie.

835

And, and Greeley, uh, just to say, uh,

you know, the, the, uh, was represented

836

by Congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave at

the time, and she won on the platform

837

of banning gay marriage in the U.

838

S.

839

Constitution.

840

And so that's the kind of place that

Greeley is and, uh, so we, we staged

841

the play, uh, you know, we've seasoned

ticket holders, uh, that are, you

842

know, generally, um, older folks.

843

Um, so I will sort of let you infer

what that looks like, uh, in a, in

844

a big theater, uh, with a play as

avant garde as, uh, uh, as the Laramie

845

Project is, and, uh, there's a guy,

um, I think his name is John Bromley,

846

who was, uh, he was, he was the sort

of the biggest patron of the theater.

847

He was a, uh, a guy that, uh, um, was

a columnist in the, in the local paper.

848

And he would always give a review

of the, of the plays, but he's also

849

a staunch, you know, Republican.

850

Uh, and, uh, um, I remember reading the

column that he wrote after that play was

851

Um, and, uh, he, uh, said something like

he was there to, um, Sort of grudgingly

852

see the show had really questioned the

wisdom of putting a play like this on But

853

he found that by the end of that by the

end of the show his opinion on the whole

854

topic had been changed Dramatically Wow,

and he was a smart guy He was a guy that

855

had read all the literature on both sides

had read the arguments for and against all

856

that kind of stuff But it was a narrative

Um, and the, the human experience of

857

sitting through a narrative, being able

to see the, uh, the motivations, the

858

experience, all that, of, of different

folks, um, that, that is the, that was

859

for him, the access to behavior change.

860

Um, and, uh, I think I learned something

there is that there, there is something

861

that is baked into our evolutionary

DNA, uh, that, that has always been so.

862

all the way from telling stories around

a campfire that that there is something

863

about humanity that is hardwired to learn

through narrative and to access parts of

864

ourselves through narrative that are just

not possible, uh, through logical argument

865

or through presenting data and facts

and evidence and even business cases.

866

Um, and so there's just something

there that I think matters.

867

And so for me, um, you know, I'm a

little bit of a one trick pony, uh,

868

that, that, you know, If that's so and

I believe it is, um, and if business,

869

uh, needs to transform for us to be

able to, you know, realize the world

870

that we wish is possible, well then

shit, uh, there's only one thing to do.

871

Um, and it's to find these stories.

872

And so the second point and the advice

is, um, that I think there's only

873

one story that matters right now.

874

Um, there's a bold thing to say,

but it's the only story that

875

I'm interested in doing now.

876

And it's a story that goes

like this, um, business person.

877

or person, uh, realizes their

complicity in something that

878

they cannot abide, right?

879

So Ray Anderson wakes up to, uh, the

decline of all life support systems

880

on earth, recognizes that the amazing

company that was his vision in life's

881

work is absolutely complicit in all

of the reasons that that is happening.

882

And they decide That they can't

go on unless they tackle it.

883

Uh, they begin not knowing

at all how to proceed.

884

There is no roadmap.

885

There is no possibility.

886

There's, it is literally impossible

and they decide to take it on anyway.

887

And they go through all kinds of shit.

888

That lots of obstacles, lots of missteps,

they, they continue to find a way and

889

maybe they see it in their lifetime, but

maybe they don't and that doesn't matter.

890

They're going to try to make it possible

to get out of complicity with the

891

problem, not just for themselves or their

company, but to make it possible for us.

892

To get out of complicity with the problem

to actually solve the problem, right?

893

And, and I would assert that

business is, uh, the best, uh, most

894

powerful way to do that right now.

895

And so for me, um, that's the story that

I want to find and I want to tell, um, in

896

all the industries, in all the problems.

897

Um, and I think it is the thing that

business leaders right now need to

898

look at, find the thing that bugs

them the most, find the thing Of which

899

they're already complicit that they're

like, I just can't abide that anymore.

900

And I'm going to go get

serious about solving it.

901

And I'm going to bring my company's

resources to bear to do it.

902

That is the story.

903

Uh, that is, I think the pathway, uh, for

us all to, um, transform the harms into

904

benefits and get where we need to get.

905

Um, and so, uh, for anybody else that's

interested in telling stories out there,

906

my advice would be, that's the story

and go tell that or live it, create it.

907

In your own company.

908

Great answer.

909

And I, I personally also very much

ascribed to that idea that there's

910

just, I think we need absolutely to

pay attention to facts and science and

911

research and the details and not allow

them to be distorted or to be maligned.

912

Like that is extremely important.

913

But when it comes to helping them.

914

You checked all the facts you agree

with all the science like it points

915

in one direction and then you want

to help convey it fully agree as well

916

that the narrative version of it just

helps people access and understand what

917

you're telling them in a way that helps

them feel differently about the world

918

and see the world through a different

lens that you've helped paint for them.

919

And I, I, you know, my experience

has been, um, you know, there's

920

some folks that want to talk

about the interface case.

921

Uh, And they think they know it.

922

Um, and so they don't feel,

they don't watch beyond zero.

923

Uh, they just want to

kind of talk about it.

924

And, and those conversations

are, um, they suck.

925

But, uh, you know, once somebody

has kind of experienced the story.

926

Uh, and this is true for lots of other

things, not just Beyond Zero, uh, but

927

you know, it's like, probably not the

same thing as if you, you know, you're

928

connecting with somebody over the new

thing that you just binged and you're

929

like, Oh my God, can you believe, you

know, people that might understand

930

it, they might know what it's about,

but if they haven't seen it, they

931

haven't had the experience of, you

know, of, of experiencing the story.

932

It's a totally different thing.

933

Uh, and so, so yeah, I mean, I,

I think that there, there just

934

is something, um, that provides.

935

a different kind of access.

936

Um, yeah, when you've had

the shared experience.

937

And so again, you know, the CEO seeing it,

uh, and then trying to go and do something

938

is, is, is better than nothing for sure.

939

But I think that the sort of, um, uh,

humble, um, let's watch this together

940

and then let's get into a conversation

together about what this means, what it

941

means for us, uh, what, You know, what

you think your path might need to be, uh,

942

you know, what is the thing that is that

complicity that you can't abide anymore?

943

Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's a

really good place for people to look.

944

And so Nathan, I want to take that and

actually go back to a question I asked

945

earlier where I, you know, I asked about

how do people access this video and use it

946

and watch it in their company, that stuff.

947

And the, the reason I asked

that and, and the logistics

948

around it for our listeners was.

949

It was what you just said, it was

having experienced watching this

950

movie with co workers and then talking

about it, engaging with it and letting

951

the, the powerful narrative that is

Beyond Zero engage them in a way that

952

I couldn't present the same thing

the way how beautifully you did.

953

But then I get the.

954

Benefit of getting to engage with them

and discuss things after they've done

955

that we were just we had a sort of a,

an in office staff lunch earlier this

956

week and I was chatting with a few team

members who I hadn't yet bumped into and

957

sat down and broken bread with about.

958

When they watched it a few months ago

and, and even still two months later, it's

959

like their reactions are strong, right?

960

Like there's still, it's still resonating

with full, you know, full vibrancy.

961

Um, so great.

962

Um, so I hope our listeners

go engage in this.

963

Process because it is, there is

that power of that narrative that

964

then, then you can build off of.

965

Totally.

966

Well, and, and if I may, let me just say,

uh, you know, uh, in April, uh, we, we

967

had a total coup and it went up on, uh,

Delta, United, Emirates, KLM, and JetBlue.

968

Um, and, uh, now we're here on

August 2nd, uh, and, uh, it's

969

now off of Delta, uh, cause they

only had it for a couple months.

970

Um, I'm not totally clear on the

status of others, and we've also

971

been reaching out to other airlines

to try to make that happen, uh, but

972

that's the only place it's available.

973

You know, we're happy to

book corporate screenings.

974

That is the revenue model for us,

uh, you know, it helps to fund the

975

ongoing work in Beyond Zero and start

to capitalize some of the other.

976

Films, the other stories that are

out there that we've been working on.

977

Um, but we haven't been able to

find a home for this movie yet on

978

any mainstream streaming platform.

979

Um, and not for lack of effort.

980

Yeah.

981

Um, and so it's, it's this, this

interesting thing where what I've

982

been told from, from sort of the, the.

983

I'll say Hollywood film set, um, is

that it's a really weird movie because

984

it's a positive story about one company

and what, what that is in the film

985

world is called a commercial, right?

986

Yeah, sure.

987

And so we're like, I get

some really good movie.

988

Can we, I don't think we can

put this on our platforms.

989

And so it's like this, this, this notion

in popular, um, Derek Uhhuh, business is

990

not the hero of business, is the villain.

991

Uhhuh, right?

992

And so like, it's this miscast thing.

993

Uh, and so it is this thing that

we're, we're sort of, this is

994

part of the swimming upstream

in the cultural narrative.

995

Is there, there is this

different approach to it all.

996

Uh, but right now it's, it's a very,

very narrow slice of innovators that,

997

that can even hear this conversation.

998

Everybody needs to put this

into wait, nonprofit, right.

999

Or a corporate philanthropy, right.

00:59:20,910 --> 00:59:21,390

Or.

00:59:21,835 --> 00:59:25,695

There just isn't a conversation for what

it is that we're trying to talk about.

00:59:25,695 --> 00:59:30,965

And so the amount of repetition and

education and, and, and having people

00:59:31,025 --> 00:59:35,755

sort of see what I guess some of these

innovators are starting to see about this

00:59:35,764 --> 00:59:37,524

method of change making in the world.

00:59:37,815 --> 00:59:39,099

Um, it, it's, it's.

00:59:40,090 --> 00:59:42,200

We're not even close

to where we need to be.

00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:43,710

And I would love it.

00:59:43,820 --> 00:59:47,470

I would love it if this thing were

on Netflix or on Amazon or, you

00:59:47,470 --> 00:59:52,219

know, we, if it had its own category

of kinds of films like this, that

00:59:52,220 --> 00:59:53,390

it's the own category, right?

00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:56,640

Inspirational business,

business change stories, right?

00:59:56,955 --> 01:00:00,195

We've had to resign to

we're defining a niche here.

01:00:00,265 --> 01:00:00,655

Yeah.

01:00:00,725 --> 01:00:04,375

Um, and so, okay, so we'll just,

you know, we built this distribution

01:00:04,385 --> 01:00:07,874

thing sort of by accident because

we didn't know what we didn't know.

01:00:08,175 --> 01:00:10,774

Um, and now, you know, yeah, there

are more movies coming down the pike

01:00:10,775 --> 01:00:13,204

and there's more stories that are

out there, but you know, the other

01:00:13,204 --> 01:00:17,585

thing that listeners could do if they

were, um, is, uh, you know, there

01:00:17,585 --> 01:00:22,855

are request buttons on a lot of the

major, uh, The major content platforms.

01:00:23,085 --> 01:00:27,305

And so if you have seen it, or if you'd

like to see it, uh, you know, tell

01:00:27,445 --> 01:00:30,754

Netflix that you'd really love for beyond

zero to get added to their library.

01:00:30,755 --> 01:00:34,925

And we think that if enough of those

requests come in, um, it may well,

01:00:35,025 --> 01:00:38,054

uh, it may well give us access and,

and, uh, it would, it would be just a

01:00:38,054 --> 01:00:39,235

phenomenal thing to be able to do it.

01:00:39,564 --> 01:00:43,455

And I think that like, you know, why don't

we just put it on YouTube for five bucks?

01:00:43,895 --> 01:00:44,385

We might.

01:00:44,845 --> 01:00:48,575

We might at some point, uh, but, um,

there is something with sort of reaching,

01:00:48,625 --> 01:00:52,424

uh, business executives, uh, where if

they feel like there's something that's

01:00:52,425 --> 01:00:56,684

sort of special and exclusive just for

them, uh, they pay more attention to

01:00:56,684 --> 01:01:00,275

it than if it's, you know, some run

of the mill thing that's out there.

01:01:00,275 --> 01:01:03,624

And so, you know, one of the cool

opportunities that that strategy has

01:01:03,635 --> 01:01:07,865

yielded and it's yielded many, uh, but

at New York climate week this year, um,

01:01:07,925 --> 01:01:11,445

uh, we have, uh, I don't know if I can

actually say this publicly, I'll just say

01:01:11,445 --> 01:01:14,625

that, um, there is a very, um, private.

01:01:14,970 --> 01:01:20,120

Screening with a very important business

organization globally, uh, that has,

01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:25,820

uh, made it available for, um, some of

their, um, uh, very large executives,

01:01:26,170 --> 01:01:28,290

uh, that are going to get to be there.

01:01:28,310 --> 01:01:32,010

So they're at the UN doing that, doing

climate week, um, and then they will,

01:01:32,010 --> 01:01:35,550

uh, they will take a break, um, and

they will together in a screening

01:01:35,550 --> 01:01:37,450

room, uh, experience beyond zero.

01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:42,295

And I don't think that, that, happens,

uh, if we hadn't done the strategy

01:01:42,295 --> 01:01:43,925

we've done and I might be wrong.

01:01:44,315 --> 01:01:48,085

Um, so we're kind of making it up as

we go along, but, but, you know, uh,

01:01:48,215 --> 01:01:52,815

it has not been easy, uh, to get beyond

zero where it has gotten, uh, but I

01:01:52,815 --> 01:01:54,775

do believe and sort of trust that.

01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:59,090

know, the journey is the

value in this whole thing.

01:01:59,450 --> 01:02:02,950

Um, and you know, that's how, that's

how we met, uh, was, uh, was doing,

01:02:03,350 --> 01:02:05,730

was, was doing a screening like

this where you just sort of see the

01:02:05,730 --> 01:02:07,310

opportunities as they come and take them.

01:02:07,690 --> 01:02:09,989

Um, and, uh, it is very much not.

01:02:10,615 --> 01:02:13,215

The way things are usually done.

01:02:13,545 --> 01:02:14,725

And I think that's part of the magic.

01:02:14,795 --> 01:02:20,345

I think that is well in, in the effort

to help create optionality for you, maybe

01:02:20,345 --> 01:02:24,145

you choose to stay with the discovered

methodology of distribution you've done,

01:02:24,415 --> 01:02:28,304

because maybe there's magic in the new

version, but to help create optionality,

01:02:28,304 --> 01:02:32,825

I think we'll, I just found the link for,

you know, requesting on Netflix and we can

01:02:32,835 --> 01:02:35,995

go find the prime and the other versions

of this and drop them in our show notes.

01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:41,090

So listeners can go put in the request

for beyond zero on those platforms.

01:02:41,170 --> 01:02:45,430

Um, and then, and then you get the choice

of whether you want to do that or not.

01:02:45,499 --> 01:02:49,380

But, but, uh, but we can help

try to create some optionality.

01:02:49,970 --> 01:02:50,380

Totally.

01:02:50,399 --> 01:02:56,787

And I guess that, um, the 30th

anniversary of that speech, right.

01:02:56,787 --> 01:02:59,700

01:02:59,740 --> 01:03:03,560

That's the end of this month,

30 years since Ray Anderson laid

01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:04,870

down the gauntlet for interface.

01:03:05,170 --> 01:03:10,255

And, um, Uh, at the end of his life,

he was really, really disappointed

01:03:10,315 --> 01:03:12,885

with the amount of progress that

had been made around the world.

01:03:13,375 --> 01:03:15,415

Um, and I think, frankly,

he still would be.

01:03:15,875 --> 01:03:18,354

Um, but, uh, it's a curve.

01:03:18,395 --> 01:03:19,405

I don't think it's linear.

01:03:19,605 --> 01:03:21,314

Um, I think that it's accelerating.

01:03:21,485 --> 01:03:23,324

Um, is it accelerating fast enough?

01:03:23,325 --> 01:03:23,994

I don't know.

01:03:24,354 --> 01:03:26,644

Uh, but I definitely feel some

time pressure on this too.

01:03:26,644 --> 01:03:30,945

And so, um, you know, it, it is not, it

is not going to be long, uh, before we

01:03:30,945 --> 01:03:35,490

need to, uh, Remove all the barriers,

uh, and let, let beyond zero out.

01:03:35,710 --> 01:03:37,790

Um, cause we've been

able to recoup our costs.

01:03:38,170 --> 01:03:41,360

Uh, we've been able to get some investment

dollars to create a curriculum around it.

01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,880

Uh, you know, to, to really develop

some of this stuff that we think can

01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:45,600

have it help make its full impact.

01:03:45,940 --> 01:03:51,849

Um, but I, I, I lose a little sleep

frankly about, um, do I need to just.

01:03:52,250 --> 01:03:52,820

Let it go.

01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:57,170

But if we had like a Netflix or a or a

Amazon or something that we'd let it go

01:03:57,170 --> 01:03:59,340

with some profile That would make it.

01:03:59,830 --> 01:04:00,160

Yeah.

01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,040

Yeah, that makes sense.

01:04:02,288 --> 01:04:05,530

Yeah, I I'm reading this book right now

I know I'm looking at all these stats

01:04:05,530 --> 01:04:10,399

2008 and Projections and I'm like, oh

01:04:12,110 --> 01:04:16,700

We missed it like it's like problematic

where we are versus where we thought

01:04:16,700 --> 01:04:21,590

we would be, you know, yeah, it's an

interesting process to go through that

01:04:21,590 --> 01:04:23,580

kind of reflective thing 15 years later.

01:04:24,249 --> 01:04:27,660

Um, you know, this has

been amazing so much.

01:04:27,975 --> 01:04:29,195

Wonderful stuff here.

01:04:29,195 --> 01:04:33,435

I, I might turn it back to David,

like any other you've shared so much

01:04:33,435 --> 01:04:37,385

wisdom, but any other, like just words

of wisdom or guidance or thoughtfulness

01:04:37,385 --> 01:04:38,865

for, for our listeners here.

01:04:39,244 --> 01:04:46,854

I think the, the last thing, um, might be

that, um, we don't know what we're doing.

01:04:47,175 --> 01:04:48,225

And that can't stop us.

01:04:49,475 --> 01:04:53,075

Uh, and so whether you're a CEO or

you're a change leader trying to make

01:04:53,075 --> 01:04:57,855

it happen in your company, um, doing

something is better than nothing.

01:04:57,904 --> 01:05:01,685

Um, and, and so it's just a matter of,

uh, we're not going to get it right

01:05:01,685 --> 01:05:05,734

out the gate, uh, but, uh, you can get

it better, but you can only do that

01:05:05,734 --> 01:05:09,835

if you start and so, uh, for those

that are out there, keep doing it.

01:05:09,975 --> 01:05:13,795

Uh, and if you, uh, think you

want to start something, um, get

01:05:13,795 --> 01:05:15,115

into good trouble and get going.

01:05:15,154 --> 01:05:15,175

Yeah.

01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:19,740

I'm going to add, I'm going to append

a little piece onto that, which is,

01:05:19,740 --> 01:05:24,270

so as someone who, you know, oversees

and manages employees and groups and

01:05:24,310 --> 01:05:28,740

operations and things, one of the other

really influential things, it's much like

01:05:28,740 --> 01:05:32,639

this requesting a film from Netflix thing

that we just talked about a second ago.

01:05:32,639 --> 01:05:36,630

Like if you are not one of those leaders

overseeing a whole bunch of people or

01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:40,540

a CEO of a company or whatever, you're

not that, but you're anywhere else in

01:05:40,540 --> 01:05:42,300

the ecosystem and the organization.

01:05:42,790 --> 01:05:47,710

Go ask for this, go push for this, go

advocate for this, because maybe there's

01:05:47,730 --> 01:05:51,560

leaders who are sitting there who would

willingly and lovingly and wantingly

01:05:51,590 --> 01:05:54,659

do this, or maybe they need a good

narrative to help push them over the

01:05:54,660 --> 01:05:56,529

edge or help them come to the conclusion.

01:05:57,490 --> 01:06:03,400

But you helping bring it up and surface

it and have value in it, right, is itself

01:06:04,029 --> 01:06:08,560

part of that process of how they start to

get closer to that comfort of making that

01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,220

action or making the decision differently.

01:06:10,220 --> 01:06:12,430

It's, it's leadership from every level.

01:06:13,740 --> 01:06:14,220

Yes.

01:06:14,330 --> 01:06:15,990

And it takes leadership from every level.

01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,850

You know, what, one of the great

misunderstandings of interface is that

01:06:18,850 --> 01:06:20,470

it's, it's the Ray Anderson story.

01:06:20,510 --> 01:06:20,770

Yeah.

01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:21,480

It is not.

01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:21,790

It's not.

01:06:21,870 --> 01:06:22,630

Ray Anderson story.

01:06:22,810 --> 01:06:23,179

It is.

01:06:23,190 --> 01:06:25,589

It is a thousand people within interface.

01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:30,469

All, you know, the, one of the quotes

was, um, you know, a thousand small

01:06:30,469 --> 01:06:33,660

steps, uh, creates the, the big leaps.

01:06:33,660 --> 01:06:33,860

Yeah.

01:06:34,130 --> 01:06:36,300

Um, and that's the only thing

that creates the big leaps.

01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,990

And so the small step that you can

see to take is the one to take.

01:06:40,610 --> 01:06:41,610

Yeah, completely.

01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:41,910

Yeah.

01:06:42,090 --> 01:06:44,980

This lunch we were having earlier

this week, we were talking about

01:06:44,980 --> 01:06:47,770

this, that exactly that it's

not the Ray Anderson story.

01:06:47,820 --> 01:06:50,760

It's actually the story of all

these employees of interface.

01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:54,209

And some of the best innovations came

from people at all these other levels

01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:57,670

that were not in the C suite, not in

the leadership, not even in management.

01:06:57,709 --> 01:06:57,969

Totally.

01:06:58,570 --> 01:07:03,200

And, and as we were at lunch talking about

some of our company's best innovations

01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,790

and moves and progress things, I was

recounting who helped spark those ideas.

01:07:07,830 --> 01:07:09,590

And none of they weren't my leaders.

01:07:09,590 --> 01:07:10,538

They weren't me, right?

01:07:10,559 --> 01:07:12,520

It was coming from all of

our other team members.

01:07:13,859 --> 01:07:16,050

Because that really is where the

brilliance option comes from.

01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:21,490

So, uh, Nathan, again, thank you so

much for this time for your dedication

01:07:21,500 --> 01:07:26,169

to not only, you know, we talked a

lot about beyond zero, but to, you

01:07:26,169 --> 01:07:27,690

know, making films that matter, right?

01:07:27,690 --> 01:07:31,529

Like to your tagline and in the

larger AV pro sort of ecosystem

01:07:31,529 --> 01:07:35,100

and like doing things that like

succeed in making an impact.

01:07:35,100 --> 01:07:38,400

So thank you for your dedication and

effort and all the fronts and sharing

01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,120

some of that time and wisdom with us.

01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:41,480

My absolute pleasure.

01:07:41,490 --> 01:07:43,700

Thank you so much for the,

for the platform and, uh,

01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:44,529

and for the conversation.

01:07:45,225 --> 01:07:45,595

Thank you.

01:07:45,925 --> 01:07:46,095

Yeah.

01:07:46,095 --> 01:07:46,934

Bye.

01:07:47,615 --> 01:07:47,825

Thank you.

01:07:49,595 --> 01:07:53,225

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