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Depolarizing America with John Wood Jr.
Episode 5 • 2nd April 2022 • Tending The Fire: A Journeymen Podcast • Realignment Media
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John Wood Jr. is a national leader for Braver Angels, a former nominee for congress, former Vice-Chairman of the Republican Party of Los Angeles County, musical artist and a noted writer and speaker on subjects including racial and political reconciliation. Twitter @JohnRWoodJr

@JohnRWoodJr on X

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Transcripts

John Wood Jr:

And so I think that ultimately being able to successfully

John Wood Jr:

empathize with somebody and develop a connection across some line

John Wood Jr:

of cultural difference, it has to be in part consequence of a shift

John Wood Jr:

internally, a shift within a person's, you know, own way of thinking.

John Wood Jr:

Now that's not to say you might not be thrown into a conversation across

John Wood Jr:

some, across some difference wherein you see something in the other

John Wood Jr:

person that you relate to, and it doesn't spark a difference in you.

John Wood Jr:

It's not to say that you have to achieve some level of enlightenment

John Wood Jr:

necessarily before you go into some of these cross-cutting conversations.

John Wood Jr:

But it is to say that what we seek to do is to build out sort of a larger kind of

John Wood Jr:

shift in our, you know, in the spirit of our conception of what it means to be a

John Wood Jr:

citizen in American democracy, if you will

Brant Evans:

hey guys.

Brant Evans:

And welcome to the show.

Brant Evans:

Today we have John Wood Jr.

Brant Evans:

Come into us.

Brant Evans:

He's the brand ambassador for Braver angels, which is an

Brant Evans:

organization that is dedicated to the depolarization of the American public.

Brant Evans:

And the sense of creating more of a sense of the American family

Brant Evans:

is I believe how he put it.

Brant Evans:

Jordan Bowman is also on he is one of the directors with a journeymen

Brant Evans:

triangle, which is an organization dedicated to group mentoring and rites

Brant Evans:

of passages work with boys 12 to 17.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

Hope you guys enjoy.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah, so we are a brave Rangels contemplating some initiatives

John Wood Jr:

that really involves sort of direct engagement with the most polarized

John Wood Jr:

groups in American politics which, you know, specifically means sort of

John Wood Jr:

mainstream of the Trump supporters.

John Wood Jr:

Conservative spirit of America and on the one hand in social justice oriented

John Wood Jr:

communities of color, on the other hand, and in the course of having these internal

John Wood Jr:

conversations about sort of the pretext for which we pursue this, the convening,

John Wood Jr:

these two groups together, possibly in strategic collaboration, over material

John Wood Jr:

issues, such as let's say, you know voter suppression slash voter integrity and

John Wood Jr:

other things, you know, we've thought a lot about, you know, questions that

John Wood Jr:

will come up over, you know, are the concerns that different groups have in

John Wood Jr:

their own eyes, at least about certain issues, sort of, sort of asymmetrical.

John Wood Jr:

What does questions of representation look like when you start pulling

John Wood Jr:

folks from these different groups in order to get them to share a space?

John Wood Jr:

How do we see to it that the braver angels.

John Wood Jr:

You know, ethos is asserting itself in a context where these other

John Wood Jr:

groups are bringing very different kind of, you know sort of social

John Wood Jr:

norms to a political dialogue.

John Wood Jr:

Particularly when it's not just about building empathy across divisions,

John Wood Jr:

but about potentially finding common ground on policy, let's say

John Wood Jr:

so we're, we're contemplating kind of moving more deliberately into

John Wood Jr:

that arena, you know at least more directly than we have up until now.

John Wood Jr:

And so let's just bring within all sorts of considerations and so forth.

Brant Evans:

Feeling grateful to have y'all on John grateful to yeah,

Brant Evans:

I mean, so fortunate to be able to plug in and have those conversations..

Brant Evans:

And so, John, I think just to throw it out there, you know, we mentioned this

Brant Evans:

before, but one of the things that, that we do with the mentoring group

Brant Evans:

mentoring is rites of passage work and this idea of really Joseph Campbell's

Brant Evans:

idea of the initiation and the hero's journey, and like crossing the threshold

Brant Evans:

into healthy masculinity for our boys and a community minded adulthood.

Brant Evans:

One of the things that we've done in the COVID era is do

Brant Evans:

outdoor, fully outdoor wilderness.

Brant Evans:

So of experiences for the boys where they're alone for 48 hours.

Brant Evans:

And we put a lot of intention into that container.

Brant Evans:

Now I was commenting with Jordan that it's, it's interesting cause

Brant Evans:

you know the Braver Angels piece is bringing people together, right?

Brant Evans:

To have the conversations and there's something intensely social about that.

Brant Evans:

And then the work that we've recently done is as Jordan would

Brant Evans:

say, it's, you know, within.

Brant Evans:

And so they're in a sense alone, even though there's the connection

Brant Evans:

in lots and lots of support and lots of ceremony that goes into it.

Brant Evans:

But it's, you know, it reminds me of a time in my life where I

Brant Evans:

remember, I remember I did a group relations conference, which is

Brant Evans:

like experiential group psychology experience, intensely social.

Brant Evans:

And then or like two weeks before that I had done a meditation retreat

Brant Evans:

where I'm just like completely by myself and just the, the

Brant Evans:

different facets of what I consider ingredients of important development.

Brant Evans:

But that kinda, that kinda difference was sticking with me

Brant Evans:

as we were prepping for this one.

John Wood Jr:

Well, do you want me to respond to this idea of a distinction

John Wood Jr:

being drawn between, gathering work focused in, on kind of internal reflection

John Wood Jr:

versus socializing people together in a way to where the focus is on getting

John Wood Jr:

to know about somebody else's kind of, you know, internal reality a little bit.

Brant Evans:

It sounds like you got something.

Brant Evans:

So yeah, it was hear

John Wood Jr:

it it's not pulling a question out

John Wood Jr:

of out of your analogy there.

John Wood Jr:

But yeah, it's a, it's an interesting distinction to be drawn.

John Wood Jr:

And of course I'm not deeply familiar with the process that you're

John Wood Jr:

describing, although I'm interested in it, particularly in understanding,

John Wood Jr:

you know, sort of how it is that interacts with the natural landscape

John Wood Jr:

with wilderness landscape that I think you're sort of mentoring young people

John Wood Jr:

to be able to, to, to function in.

John Wood Jr:

One thing I would say is that I do think that in braver angels where.

John Wood Jr:

When you zoom out a little bit and look at the full spectrum of our offerings, we

John Wood Jr:

do have something called a depolarizing polarizing within workshop, right?

John Wood Jr:

So for folks listening who are not familiar too much with the

John Wood Jr:

methodology of brave Rangers, we have a whole lot of different

John Wood Jr:

workshops as well as other forums.

John Wood Jr:

And we've got a lot of output that we, that we you know get out there

John Wood Jr:

that is aimed at convening people that dialogue across differences.

John Wood Jr:

But we do have some work that is about getting folks to look internally

John Wood Jr:

at their own attitudes to assess sort of what is polarized within

John Wood Jr:

you within your own psychology.

John Wood Jr:

When you think about folks on the other side of a particular, you know, identity

John Wood Jr:

or cultural divide, you know, what are the sort of, you know, what's the.

John Wood Jr:

Mental imagery or assessment that kind of instinctively surfaces.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, we've got in this particular workshop exercises aimed

John Wood Jr:

at getting people to be sort of aware of what that reflexive kind of

John Wood Jr:

illustration is of the other side.

John Wood Jr:

And to refine that through a process of self-reflection and becoming

John Wood Jr:

educated about some of the deeper sorts of representations of just

John Wood Jr:

what a conservative actually is, or just what a liberal actually is.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, coupled with some internal exercises that kind of

John Wood Jr:

focus in on, you know, how can I, you know, how can I hold this thought

John Wood Jr:

kind of in motion a little bit.

John Wood Jr:

And so I think that ultimately being able to successfully empathize with somebody

John Wood Jr:

and develop a connection across some line of cultural difference, it has to be in.

John Wood Jr:

part Consequence of a shift internally, a shift within a person's,

John Wood Jr:

you know, own way of thinking.

John Wood Jr:

Now that's not to say you might not be thrown into a conversation across

John Wood Jr:

some, across some difference wherein you see something in the other

John Wood Jr:

person that you relate to, and it doesn't spark a difference in you.

John Wood Jr:

It's not to say that you have to achieve some level of enlightenment

John Wood Jr:

necessarily before you go into some of these cross-cutting conversations.

John Wood Jr:

But it is to say that what we seek to do is to build out sort of a

John Wood Jr:

larger kind of shift in our, you know, in the spirit of our conception

John Wood Jr:

of what it means to be a citizen in American democracy, if you will.

John Wood Jr:

And part of what we want to sort of instantiating to that conception

John Wood Jr:

is an idea that Goodwill should be sort of the starting posture.

John Wood Jr:

With which we regard everybody in, you know, in, in the American family,

John Wood Jr:

let's say and that in, so doing this frees us up psychologically to be

John Wood Jr:

able to more effectively communicate across differences and to signal to

John Wood Jr:

people, the fact that disagreement does not make us enemies to each other.

John Wood Jr:

You know, at least not in my mind as an individual, therefore giving you

John Wood Jr:

permission to reciprocate some, some charity of understanding in return.

John Wood Jr:

So I would say that, you know, I think that there's not necessarily an

John Wood Jr:

ultimate separation to be made between the needs on the one hand focus

John Wood Jr:

inward and sort of, you know come to a deeper understanding of how one's

John Wood Jr:

internal universe operates and a more constructive kind of social dynamic.

John Wood Jr:

But I think it probably is also fair to say that we can look at these on a

John Wood Jr:

process level as occupying distinct the perhaps connectable sorts of, you know,

John Wood Jr:

sorts of lanes of, of of investigation and imagination you might say.

John Wood Jr:

So that was brought to my mind, as I heard you sort of point to the possibility

John Wood Jr:

of a contrast between those focuses.

Brant Evans:

Yeah, yeah.

Brant Evans:

Right on.

Jordan Bowman:

I've been to one of the depolarizing within workshops.

Jordan Bowman:

I thought it was, I thought it was really cool.

Jordan Bowman:

And I did that self analization.

Jordan Bowman:

I think it's definitely a commonality between what I Braver Angels.

Jordan Bowman:

And journeyman's that there's some level of self understanding that you

Jordan Bowman:

need in order to bridge bridge divides.

Jordan Bowman:

One of the, one of the things that comes up for me is I heard you mentioned

Jordan Bowman:

that like what bravery angels does is kind of like marriage counseling or

Jordan Bowman:

like you use the technology of marriage counseling in a purchasing divide context.

Jordan Bowman:

And in working with youth, there's a lot of kind of ego construction, right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like they're learning who they are, they're learning what their identity is.

Jordan Bowman:

And so like, I'm curious like, well, how would something like that apply if

Jordan Bowman:

you've never even had a girlfriend yet., like , you know, how's the marriage

Jordan Bowman:

counseling techniques going to land.

Jordan Bowman:

And again, like, I know we're kind of just exploring this.

Jordan Bowman:

I don't, I don't expect you to be an expert on this piece, but I'm curious

Jordan Bowman:

if you have any, any thoughts around how to appeal to the youth with

Jordan Bowman:

some of this kind of concepts and processes that you guys are using.

John Wood Jr:

Sure.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

Well, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

I mean, you know, you put your finger on it.

John Wood Jr:

I think that the, when you look at when you look at our polarization, It is a,

John Wood Jr:

it, it is a tension, a combustible tension that exists between different groups,

John Wood Jr:

not just on the basis of intellectual differences of opinion on policy, but

John Wood Jr:

on a much more deeper and more sensitive levels of friction being perceived

John Wood Jr:

between us on the level of identity.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

And what we take to constitute identity, whether it is, you know, an ethnic or

John Wood Jr:

religious markers or political markers, such as your party affiliation, or

John Wood Jr:

your stated ideological orientation, whether we think of these things

John Wood Jr:

explicitly or merely implicitly as, as identity with respect to ourselves, it

John Wood Jr:

is generally the case that our politics have been subject to sort of a.

John Wood Jr:

Phenomenon and, you know, an old familiar one in human civilizations where, and

John Wood Jr:

just showing up in a certain uniform or seeming to wear a certain uniform

John Wood Jr:

triggers a cascade of the assumptions that may not allow for the intervention

John Wood Jr:

of reason or empathy in delicate, you know social and political interactions,

John Wood Jr:

but with younger people and you know, I think this is more true that the

John Wood Jr:

younger you go they're still in the process of forming their identity.

John Wood Jr:

And therefore perhaps still in the process of solidifying their prejudices.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

Which is, you know, the which I guess is the good news, really.

John Wood Jr:

And this is why, you know, folks, we all have an interest in being,

John Wood Jr:

you know, hopefully a constructive influence on, on the young, on the

John Wood Jr:

youth, the kiddos, God, I'm old.

John Wood Jr:

You know, I don't feel like until I start trying to think in terms of how I talk in

John Wood Jr:

a way that makes it seem like, you know, we might make young people interested,

John Wood Jr:

but this is why it matters, right?

John Wood Jr:

Because it is humanity in development and the potential for them to be

John Wood Jr:

better than us is still there.

John Wood Jr:

So, you know, that's why, what you guys do is so important.

John Wood Jr:

But how to connect it to what we do, you know I think that Brant you

John Wood Jr:

are well-equipped for what you do because you have an appreciation of

John Wood Jr:

the importance of story and miss.

John Wood Jr:

As really being sort of the doorways towards a, maybe a holistic kind of, you

John Wood Jr:

know, communication of a value system and a way of being in the world to

John Wood Jr:

folks who end to younger people in particular, who are not necessarily

John Wood Jr:

going to have, you know, the resources of deep political study or experience with,

John Wood Jr:

you know our larger kind of societal histories and, and storylines and so

John Wood Jr:

forth, you're able to get at something much more elemental through story.

John Wood Jr:

I do remember relatively recently actually just.

John Wood Jr:

On the cusp of the election, the presidential election last year

John Wood Jr:

giving a series of speeches to a private academy in Connecticut.

John Wood Jr:

That was K through 12.

John Wood Jr:

And so I gave three speeches.

John Wood Jr:

One was to the elementary school cohort.

John Wood Jr:

The other was to the middle school cohort.

John Wood Jr:

And then the last was to high schoolers and and some faculty.

John Wood Jr:

And so that did give me the opportunity to think very deliberately in terms of like,

John Wood Jr:

what is the develop developmental kind of added up sort of art to the message of

John Wood Jr:

rave Rangels in my own articulation of it.

John Wood Jr:

And how does that need to render itself in speaking to these different audiences?

John Wood Jr:

And I think all three of those speeches went really, really well.

John Wood Jr:

I, in a way I, I was most pleased with the first one with the youngest.

John Wood Jr:

Because it forced me to just think in strictly kind of

John Wood Jr:

elemental in architectural terms.

John Wood Jr:

And as I was searching my memory a little bit, but I started off,

John Wood Jr:

I actually Brandt, I think he would have been proud of me, man.

John Wood Jr:

I started off you know, with something was Spiderman reference,

John Wood Jr:

you know, and I found an excuse to work in the whole with great power

John Wood Jr:

comes, great responsibility angle.

John Wood Jr:

And I think where I kind of began with that was to let you know, let these

John Wood Jr:

kids know that, you know, you're not thinking in these terms yet, but each

John Wood Jr:

of you is a citizen of the United States of America, which is, you know,

John Wood Jr:

for a long time been, you would say the most powerful and country in

John Wood Jr:

the world and the country, which is meant to set the standard in terms of

John Wood Jr:

freedom and equality for the world.

John Wood Jr:

And not to say that we do so perfectly or don't, but within that country, you,

John Wood Jr:

as citizens, as members of your community and as you know, kids are going to

John Wood Jr:

become adults with voices and minds that can shape the things around them, have

John Wood Jr:

great power and influence, you know?

John Wood Jr:

And so you'll be, you will become the heroes in your own story, but what

John Wood Jr:

gives us the power to ultimately, you know, move that story towards the good.

John Wood Jr:

And so then I shifted into you know, a story that I know well, which is

John Wood Jr:

the Lord of the rings story, you know?

John Wood Jr:

And I started to, I think I talked a fair amount about Frodo

John Wood Jr:

and the ring and what made fro.

John Wood Jr:

Able to, you know ultimately though he was not large though.

John Wood Jr:

He was not strong though.

John Wood Jr:

He didn't even really have a, a strong understanding of the history of the

John Wood Jr:

world that he was operating and he wasn't Gandalf, he wasn't Aragorn, he

John Wood Jr:

didn't know the history of Ghandour or, you know, SA siren or, you know, all of

John Wood Jr:

these other things, but Frodo was able to bear a tremendous burden, a tremendous

John Wood Jr:

responsibility because he of his nature had an ability to see the best in people

John Wood Jr:

to not hold on to bitter grievances.

John Wood Jr:

And therefore he was able to hold the ring and the ring itself, being this

John Wood Jr:

powerful sort of vehicle for exploiting the inner, the inner sorts of, you know,

John Wood Jr:

demons that we have within ourselves tended to be very corrupting of much

John Wood Jr:

more powerful and more educated.

John Wood Jr:

People warriors and wizards of life, but Frodo, you know, I had this powerful

John Wood Jr:

potential because he had not really been corrupted by, by those, by those

John Wood Jr:

temptations and those, those streams of, of, of bitterness, those streams

John Wood Jr:

of, of hatred and fear and grievance.

John Wood Jr:

And what have you I made the point to, to these kids that, you know,

John Wood Jr:

right now you kids are all Frodo and that means that you have the potential

John Wood Jr:

to kind of save us from ourselves.

John Wood Jr:

The rest of us have all drunk in sort of these partisan and polarizing

John Wood Jr:

narratives, you know, in some of your parents are Republican.

John Wood Jr:

Some of your parents are Democrats, you know you know someone's your

John Wood Jr:

PA your parents may be maybe both.

John Wood Jr:

You may have one in each and each side.

John Wood Jr:

I said, the thing that I want to, that you may not yet be fully aware of, but that

John Wood Jr:

you will come to notice is as you grow, or maybe you haven't noticed it and given the

John Wood Jr:

backdrop of the Trump election it's the fact that right now all our entire country

John Wood Jr:

is listening to one story or another.

John Wood Jr:

That basically is making the point that your mother or your father are the enemy

John Wood Jr:

are in some sense, a bad, bad person, or somebody who should not be trusted.

John Wood Jr:

This is the story that the country is telling right now about your

John Wood Jr:

parents in one way or the other.

John Wood Jr:

But you being your parents, children know that your parents love, you know, that

John Wood Jr:

your parents have goodness within them.

John Wood Jr:

And that there's, there's ever so much to be, to be loved and respected

John Wood Jr:

and admired about your mom and dad.

John Wood Jr:

I said, there's a difference between the story that the country is

John Wood Jr:

telling itself about your parents and what you know, to be true.

John Wood Jr:

And so in coming to, you know, appreciate that, you know, I, I think

John Wood Jr:

I tried to communicate the idea that, you know, there's sort of a journey.

John Wood Jr:

In front of all of us, but certainly in front of these young people wherein they

John Wood Jr:

will have to come to understand what the legit, what the sort of legitimate

John Wood Jr:

reason is for the differences that caused us to distrust each other in American

John Wood Jr:

life are while at the same time, never letting go of what they know already,

John Wood Jr:

which is that at the end of the day, you know these pictures that we're

John Wood Jr:

painting, you know, of their parents is not the true image of who, of who they

John Wood Jr:

are, even if the stories exist for a reason in our national consciousness.

John Wood Jr:

So, you know, I'm my memory of what I said to these kids was imperfect, but

John Wood Jr:

it did seem to be impactful to be able to communicate these things in terms

John Wood Jr:

of, you know, in terms of Marvel and middle, middle earth and so forth.

John Wood Jr:

And really these are modern applications of essentially sort of mythological

John Wood Jr:

sorts of narrative structures.

John Wood Jr:

I think you'd probably agree Brant or at least that there's a deep connection.

John Wood Jr:

So, you know I think that it becomes important for us to know.

John Wood Jr:

And I wouldn't pretend to brave Rangels is quite gotten there yet,

John Wood Jr:

but the more we think in terms of reaching young folks, I really, this

John Wood Jr:

is powerful for, for adults as well.

John Wood Jr:

You know, it's worth considering how it is.

John Wood Jr:

We can more effectively apply story and archetype, myth, popular cultures, so on

John Wood Jr:

and so forth to how we communicate the imperative for this sort of transcendence.

John Wood Jr:

And, and Chloe Valdary is someone who I think does this very well

John Wood Jr:

"Theory of Enchantment" and her approach to diversity, equity,

John Wood Jr:

inclusion, work et cetera.

John Wood Jr:

So yeah, so those are some opening thoughts, and that is an example

John Wood Jr:

of how I've tried to communicate effectively with kids of a certain age.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

I, I appreciate the optimism and, and hope in that piece too.

Brant Evans:

It's kind of a hard act to follow, but one of the big pieces that I struggled

Brant Evans:

to place right now are some, we have some understanding about how the adolescent

Brant Evans:

brain develops and how it works, and there's less of a capacity for them

Brant Evans:

to tap into the prefrontal cortex.

Brant Evans:

You know, the thinking that, that part of the brain that you guys really do that

Brant Evans:

work of, of speaking to, like, if you're, depolarizing, you're taking that minute,

Brant Evans:

you're tapping into the thinking part like learning how to take that pause.

Brant Evans:

That's really hard for adolescents.

Brant Evans:

It was for me.

Brant Evans:

And the science says that too, right.

Brant Evans:

And at the same time, they are being bombarded with political information

Brant Evans:

and propaganda on both sides and through channels that, I mean really

Brant Evans:

hard for me to even imagine, you know, I'm, I'm not that older, that

Brant Evans:

far away from being a teenager.

Brant Evans:

There's no comparison.

Brant Evans:

You know, I don't have, I don't have one of the, I didn't have one of these in

Brant Evans:

my pocket that was just blasting me with news sources and narratives constantly.

Brant Evans:

So we talk about stories and I guess that what I'd offer is that

Brant Evans:

it works, it works both ways.

Brant Evans:

I think that younger, younger minds can, can really soak in those stories

Brant Evans:

at a deep level, without necessarily knowing that that's happening.

Brant Evans:

And my concern is that, you know, are we, are we, are we being good stewards?

Brant Evans:

Are we being good storytellers to the younger generation?

Brant Evans:

I know that we have some people who pay a lot of attention to that

Brant Evans:

and are really pushing for that.

Brant Evans:

I like to think we, we formed a really powerful story around

Brant Evans:

like the work that our guys did just recently on that weekend.

Brant Evans:

And, you know, I'm definitely concerned on a more cultural level that You know

Brant Evans:

that we are not being good storytellers, that we are, we're telling stories that

Brant Evans:

it will take us apart that we'll explore it, you know, like the algorithms versus

Brant Evans:

an adolescent mind that kind of like orientation seems troubling, I'll say.

John Wood Jr:

Hmm, right.

John Wood Jr:

Well, yeah, it definitely is.

John Wood Jr:

We're just releasing a actually today.

John Wood Jr:

We just released a podcast with Tristan Harris.

John Wood Jr:

So our second conversation, but yeah, but this has come out on

John Wood Jr:

the braver angels podcast today.

John Wood Jr:

And you know, what Justin talks about is how it is that the design of social

John Wood Jr:

media, the major social media platforms and you know, other algorithmically

John Wood Jr:

driven platforms and distribute content, facilitate communication.

John Wood Jr:

Is meant to sort of overwhelm human sense-making abilities you know,

John Wood Jr:

as a, as a means of keeping your attention focused in, on the on your,

John Wood Jr:

on your social media feed, right.

John Wood Jr:

Because your attention is monetized, of course.

John Wood Jr:

And, and so, you know, with, with adults we are overwhelmed by a system

John Wood Jr:

that on the basis of our, you know, sort of essential kind of, of demographic

John Wood Jr:

information and just a little bit of input in terms of what we've voluntarily

John Wood Jr:

start off, clicking on and so forth.

John Wood Jr:

No, because the the, the platform.

John Wood Jr:

Have essentially, you know, unlimited data showing how it is that folks of a certain

John Wood Jr:

demographic with a certain sort of content preference will themselves be inclined

John Wood Jr:

to consume more and more information and stimulus that is sort of trotted out in

John Wood Jr:

the vein of what they can anticipate.

John Wood Jr:

One's preferences to be.

John Wood Jr:

You are overloaded with recommendations and posts and you know, that speak to

John Wood Jr:

your to what you want to see, but to the wants that arise potentially from

John Wood Jr:

parts of you that are undisciplined and easy to exploit from your, from

John Wood Jr:

your fears every bit, as much as your, your wants and desires and

John Wood Jr:

prejudices and so on and so forth.

John Wood Jr:

We as adults are overwhelmed by all of this, and it's warping our

John Wood Jr:

ability to communicate with each other and to reason with each other

John Wood Jr:

and to make sense of the world.

John Wood Jr:

And of course, with young people and adolescents in particular on social

John Wood Jr:

media there is this terrible sort of intersection with on the one hand,

John Wood Jr:

you know, a young person being in a formative stage in their life where

John Wood Jr:

they're trying to come to grips with their identity and everybody is insecure

John Wood Jr:

and trying to understand who they are and they're being presented with the

John Wood Jr:

face of reality, let's say on Instagram and in certainly the more visual social

John Wood Jr:

media sites wherein everybody is sort of motivated to present the most idyllic

John Wood Jr:

possible representation of their reality.

John Wood Jr:

You know in a way that one doesn't really reflect people's reality.

John Wood Jr:

Makes other people feel like they're missing out on all the happiness

John Wood Jr:

of life and that leads directly to depression and even suicide,

John Wood Jr:

particularly among young girls from, from what I understand, teenage girls.

Brant Evans:

Yeah, Jonathon Haight he hits on that.

Brant Evans:

I think pretty friendly around like the effect with adolescent

Brant Evans:

girls being, yeah, just real quick.

Brant Evans:

I want to throw out this thought this, we were talking about the archetypes and

Brant Evans:

this popped into my head, as you were speaking, it seems like we are, we've

Brant Evans:

designed AI and the algorithms to invoke the addict archetype in ourselves because

Brant Evans:

that it's easy to make money off of that.

Brant Evans:

Right?

Brant Evans:

Like if, if you know, if we're, if we're invoking the healthy king archetype

Brant Evans:

and young men, for example, that's a little harder to profit off of, right?

Brant Evans:

Because there's an independence in a autonomy and and a

Brant Evans:

generosity that comes with that.

Brant Evans:

It's a lot harder to predict.

Brant Evans:

It's a lot harder to just make a quick dollar off of.

Brant Evans:

And so we've.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

Again, if a lot of it is AI, right?

Brant Evans:

So there's not like that conscious intention there, but what do we see?

Brant Evans:

We see material that's designed to like, suck us into these dark fantasies, to

Brant Evans:

where we're just doing the scrolling on Twitter on Instagram or whatever it is.

Brant Evans:

I love that.

Brant Evans:

And yeah.

Brant Evans:

And we're predictable, you know, the addict is predictable.

John Wood Jr:

And I think that it is possible as we consider how it is that

John Wood Jr:

what we know with respect to how we may developmentally progress towards

John Wood Jr:

being more empathetic and loving human beings and how that can translate into

John Wood Jr:

social strategies that allow us to build stronger communities and even you know,

John Wood Jr:

more deeply rooted democratic processes.

John Wood Jr:

I think it's possible to wed those insights to some objective in the digital

John Wood Jr:

and social media and technological space that says, okay, how can we take

John Wood Jr:

those insights and feed them into some architectural representation of, you

John Wood Jr:

know, what the hero is, what the good king or queen is and represent that, you

John Wood Jr:

know, somatically or somehow, or other narrative fashion in a way that allows

John Wood Jr:

social media and digital interaction to play out as something of a video

John Wood Jr:

game that cultivates, you know, those aspects of, of character, you know,

Brant Evans:

can I, can I stop you for one second?

Brant Evans:

So.

Brant Evans:

I'm realizing, I guess, more and more that, you know, the story,

Brant Evans:

getting the stories, right.

Brant Evans:

Telling the right stories and ask, and then also like fostering

Brant Evans:

a curiosity about the stories.

Brant Evans:

That's I would argue that that's a part of this and part of the picture of what's

Brant Evans:

needed for, for youth specifically.

Brant Evans:

There's another piece though, where that's not enough and there needs to

Brant Evans:

be an anchor to reality because, you know, we can have like people on the far

Brant Evans:

right way out there who love the Lord of the rings and people on the far left,

Brant Evans:

who love the Lord of the rings, right.

Brant Evans:

Who are in, and they are convinced that they're living the hero's journey

Brant Evans:

of that story and that archetype.

Brant Evans:

And that's why, right.

Brant Evans:

So there's a piece of it.

Brant Evans:

And I think this again, connects to the Braver Angels thing.

Brant Evans:

I don't have a way to cleverly correlate this specifically with

Brant Evans:

like teenagers necessarily, but that seems very true to me, right.

Brant Evans:

That we can't just, it's not just like, here are the stories.

Brant Evans:

It's how do we interpret them and how do we anchor them?

Brant Evans:

Right.

Brant Evans:

Because that's the, those are the most powerful moments for me is, is when

Brant Evans:

you have that, the whatever feedback from your environment or a mentor

Brant Evans:

or somebody you trust, who's giving you the clue that maybe you're not

Brant Evans:

like acting out that character's arc and the way that you think you are.

Brant Evans:

Right?

Jordan Bowman:

Well, I'm going to, yeah.

Jordan Bowman:

Can I jump in there?

Jordan Bowman:

Because when John, when you were talking about Lord of the Rings,

Jordan Bowman:

I started to get this picture.

Jordan Bowman:

You, you mentioned kind of the stories that were being told, the narratives

Jordan Bowman:

that are coming down are putting the older people who have formed

Jordan Bowman:

identities and foreign prejudices into right, Rohan, Gondor or Elves.

Jordan Bowman:

Right.

Jordan Bowman:

And there they're solidified in news.

Jordan Bowman:

And what came to mind for me?

Jordan Bowman:

Well, what about like the Aragon's and what about the Gandalf's

Jordan Bowman:

and even Theoden who, who had that council and said, well, no,

Jordan Bowman:

we're not going to support Gondor.

Jordan Bowman:

And then, and then he had this moment of like transcendence,

Jordan Bowman:

where it was like, wait a minute, there's there's a higher order.

Jordan Bowman:

There's like a, there's something else at stake here.

Jordan Bowman:

There's this archetypical battle of good and evil that I'm going to transcend my

Jordan Bowman:

tribal story to belong to and same thing with, and he's like, you know, Aragon.

Jordan Bowman:

I love Lord of the Rings?

Jordan Bowman:

Don't know where the rings.

Jordan Bowman:

I'm sorry if you're listening to this podcast,

Brant Evans:

just assume they know it, man.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

Trigger warning upfront or disclaimer, but I want to watch

John Wood Jr:

the Lord of the Rings first,

Brant Evans:

but so here's, here's the thought.

Brant Evans:

So again, this is like a lot, a lot of my work is thinking

Brant Evans:

about roles and organizations.

Brant Evans:

And I, I think I can honestly say there've been times in my life where

Brant Evans:

I've been fricking Wormtongue like I've been in that like bitter and like

Brant Evans:

whispering into like somebody's ear.

Brant Evans:

But if you asked me, you know, I think I'm, Aragorn, I'm like

Brant Evans:

fighting the good fight, right?

Brant Evans:

Like I'm, I'm the good guy here.

Brant Evans:

Obviously like we, we, this isn't an original thought in that sense, but you

Brant Evans:

know, I wonder like this isn't a message.

Brant Evans:

I hear a lot, but I really do think there's something around

Brant Evans:

like, how do we anchor the story?

Brant Evans:

How do we.

Brant Evans:

How do we draw out perspective around like how we're acting out the archetypes?

Brant Evans:

That's an important piece that, you know, I don't think we get a lot of,

Brant Evans:

it's like, here's the Game of Thrones.

Brant Evans:

Here's the story.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

John Wood Jr:

So, I mean, one person who does provide an immense amount of

John Wood Jr:

insight into that process, or these versions of that process is Jordan

John Wood Jr:

Peterson will be well familiar with.

John Wood Jr:

And that really is what Jordan does.

John Wood Jr:

I mean, I think that you're right Brandt that, that you don't see a lot of that

John Wood Jr:

out there, but that's kind of the main thing Jordan does in, in, in my mind,

John Wood Jr:

you know, he establishes the archetypes very significance in terms of what

John Wood Jr:

they suggest about the human spirit individually and collectively, and also

John Wood Jr:

how it evolves and progresses over time.

John Wood Jr:

But then he weds that to practical insights about, you know, how

John Wood Jr:

you do manifest those calls.

John Wood Jr:

In your day-to-day life, you know, cleaning room, sit up straight, you know,

John Wood Jr:

all of that, you know, I think he manages to, you know, tie that to, you know how

John Wood Jr:

it, you know how it is that you actually slay a fricking dragon so forth, you

John Wood Jr:

know, at least at least metaphorically.

John Wood Jr:

So you're, you're right, man.

John Wood Jr:

There's, that is the case.

John Wood Jr:

And I understand why you say that in the context of recognizing the fact

John Wood Jr:

that, you know, we can all be aware of these stories and still be wildly at

John Wood Jr:

odds with each other, because we are perhaps interpreting the implications

John Wood Jr:

of these stories differently.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, I mean, how many, you know, the Bible, whatever anybody's

John Wood Jr:

particular religious beliefs are about it is, you know, clearly even if

John Wood Jr:

it is not just this, it is clearly a, a compendium of archetypes and

John Wood Jr:

narratives, you know, how many wars have been fought within Christianity?

John Wood Jr:

Over differing interpretations of the same stories.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

And yet I think that particularly in the modern age, we have this sense

John Wood Jr:

that if, if all folks who called themselves Christian were actually like,

John Wood Jr:

Jesus, you wouldn't have any of that.

John Wood Jr:

You know, which I also believe is true, but to be like Christ, to be like,

John Wood Jr:

Jesus it seems like you have to know more than just, you know, he, he he was

John Wood Jr:

born, you know, he preached a message.

John Wood Jr:

He got crucified died, came back to life.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, in the midst of all that said, Hey, everybody better believe in me.

John Wood Jr:

You know, there actually has to be sort of a deep understanding of, you

John Wood Jr:

know, what is the spiritual, internal, spiritual reality of somebody who, who

John Wood Jr:

literally loves not just their neighbors, but loves their enemies, you know?

John Wood Jr:

What does that look and feel like from the inside out and how does you know, and

John Wood Jr:

how does that then manifest in conduct?

John Wood Jr:

It's one thing to watch, watch the movie, you know, Lord of the rings

John Wood Jr:

or whatever, and to have fun with the fight scenes and all that.

John Wood Jr:

It's another thing of course, to deeply contemplate what these things reflect

John Wood Jr:

about, you know, the the reality of human nature and the spiritual struggles

John Wood Jr:

with which we are all engaged.

John Wood Jr:

And so reflection on the stories has got to be more important even than

John Wood Jr:

the stories themselves, in some sense, because there's a harvesting that has

John Wood Jr:

to take, take place, you know, if your characters compelling and heroic to you

Brant Evans:

Getting the good side of John Wood here.

Brant Evans:

This is awesome.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

John Wood Jr:

All sorts of usual stuff for me.

John Wood Jr:

This is great.

John Wood Jr:

Jordan Peterson has said this directly, and I remember him saying this about

John Wood Jr:

the book Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, which is a very, I don't know if you

John Wood Jr:

guys have read it, but obviously, you know, it has so much to do with

John Wood Jr:

informed you know, libertarian and anarchism, even perhaps thinking and

John Wood Jr:

you serve an important philosophical texts, but it's also a story.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

And I read it and you know, I, it certainly influenced my perspectives

John Wood Jr:

on things, but Peterson named something about that book that I felt loud reading

John Wood Jr:

it, but never consciously articulated to myself until he had said it.

John Wood Jr:

And when you read that book, what Atlas Shrugged is in essence about, is a

John Wood Jr:

status society, United States of America, some version of it, she wrote, I think

John Wood Jr:

back in the fifties, if I remember.

John Wood Jr:

That had been, you know, a state of society utterly taken over by bureaucrats

John Wood Jr:

and so forth, who basically sort of viciously vindtivctely viciously and

John Wood Jr:

vindictively scapegoated, the most productive people in society, right?

John Wood Jr:

Jordan Peterson and talking about Atlas Shrugged made the point that,

John Wood Jr:

you know, it's a very interesting book.

John Wood Jr:

But it fails to be, it fails to be great literature.

John Wood Jr:

You can't have great literature without the conflict, primarily being internal.

John Wood Jr:

There's like no internal conflict in Atlas, shrugged.

John Wood Jr:

You know, all the characters are sure of themselves from start to finish and

John Wood Jr:

as such, you know, it's missing you know, something deep and it actually,

John Wood Jr:

this, this takes me to something else.

Brant Evans:

Real quick, I do want to say another one that a story that had had it,

Brant Evans:

it had it at the beginning and then as tailed off, and I believe you're a fan of.

Brant Evans:

You know what I mean?

Brant Evans:

You know, I'm going to say John.

Brant Evans:

I think I do.

Brant Evans:

I think I do Dragon Ball Z

Brant Evans:

oh,

John Wood Jr:

I thought you were going to say game of Thrones, but

John Wood Jr:

I agree with you on that front too.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

John Wood Jr:

A dragon ball Z.

John Wood Jr:

I love dragon.

John Wood Jr:

I love dragon ball Z right up until the end of I, although I think that

John Wood Jr:

the best of dragon ball Z was up until freezer, but I, but I still dug it all

John Wood Jr:

the way up to the end of into cell.

Brant Evans:

But, but I, in my mind, that's a, that's a, a story that

Brant Evans:

lost the architectural mandate.

Brant Evans:

They would have their compelling archetype story and then it crumbled.

Brant Evans:

They lost it.

Brant Evans:

It slipped through,

Brant Evans:

. Jordan Bowman: But what we're basically

Brant Evans:

their, their stories of those years and map those to the hero's journey

Brant Evans:

and then map that to their life.

Brant Evans:

And so I'm looking forward to your series with braver angels doing

Brant Evans:

that same thing across the country.

John Wood Jr:

You guys are, do you guys give me ideas, man, you may be laughing,

John Wood Jr:

but you know, it might have to bring you guys in to help us out with yeah.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

I think there's a, a huge potential for something like that.

Brant Evans:

The teenage level, because we're already bombarding them with political messaging.

Brant Evans:

So yeah, no, I mean, to me do the best ideas come out when I'm laughing.

Brant Evans:

So, you know, but, okay.

Brant Evans:

I want to know this.

Brant Evans:

This is interesting for our, our little process in this podcast.

Brant Evans:

We, we brought out this idea of talking to.

Brant Evans:

about young men or adolescents, young men and young women, and you know,

Brant Evans:

where do we, where do we go with it?

Brant Evans:

We like went to our stories and like, it had like a, to me it had like a childlike

Brant Evans:

feel to it, which is pretty cool.

Brant Evans:

I don't know.

Brant Evans:

I think there's something about doing that work in and contemplating that,

Brant Evans:

that like brings out and like gets at least me back in touch with some of

Brant Evans:

those pieces that are I definitely don't want to lose touch with Jordan.

Brant Evans:

I mentioned on the weekend when we were doing hosting the solos, I was

Brant Evans:

like just running up the Hills, which reminded me of when I was a little

Brant Evans:

boy, she's still like, run like crazy.

Brant Evans:

And yeah, there's something about like touching on it and discussing it.

Brant Evans:

Th that like brings it back up.

Brant Evans:

That's my, that's my theory at least.

Brant Evans:

Oh, sorry.

John Wood Jr:

So you mean just referring back to one's own

John Wood Jr:

childhood stories as a way of.

John Wood Jr:

Connecting and, and sort of illustrating your own, your

John Wood Jr:

own journeys or, I mean, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

What was it

Brant Evans:

like listening to you get excited about the stories,

Brant Evans:

you know, there's like a youthful, like adolescent energy there.

Brant Evans:

That's awesome.

Jordan Bowman:

Well and the D and for me, mine was Lord of the Rings, right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like growing up, like, and I was so into it.

Jordan Bowman:

So when you were bringing that up, I was like running with this metaphor and

Jordan Bowman:

like, understanding like these elements of on a societal and cultural level.

Jordan Bowman:

Right.

Jordan Bowman:

If we are, if we are an adolescents as a society in some ways, right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like in which ways are we coddling Americans and saying, oh, no, like, go

Jordan Bowman:

with your mother, ride that horse right.

Jordan Bowman:

In the Rohan scene where the two kids go up the hill and

Jordan Bowman:

they hide in the helm steep.

Jordan Bowman:

Right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like, how are we treating people like that versus inviting them to the council

Jordan Bowman:

where they're making the decision, like invite Gondor to help them fight

Jordan Bowman:

or whatever, you know what I mean?

Jordan Bowman:

Like those kinds of things, they make it click for me.

Jordan Bowman:

And I think that's going to be true with, with youth.

Jordan Bowman:

I just, I need to catch up on my Dragon Ball Z again to deliver

Jordan Bowman:

this content later this summer.

Brant Evans:

You know, I really enjoyed this conversation.

Brant Evans:

I love the work you do.

Brant Evans:

Yeah, you're, you're a rock star out there, man.

Brant Evans:

So keep it up..

Brant Evans:

I wonder what, what ways we could engage teens.

Brant Evans:

I think that's a big part of the conversation and maybe a

Brant Evans:

way that braver angels could even like expand its impact, so

John Wood Jr:

yeah, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

100%.

John Wood Jr:

Hey, this has been a lot of fun guys and you did give me an opportunity to range

John Wood Jr:

out of it, but I'd usually get to do, but it's all, it really is all important stuff

John Wood Jr:

because we tend to compartmentalize the social questions, but really all of it

John Wood Jr:

is about the whole of our culture really.

John Wood Jr:

And there's so many resources there to be drawn upon that we don't initially

John Wood Jr:

think about when we think in terms of how to impact these problems.

John Wood Jr:

Right?

John Wood Jr:

So, yeah, conversations like these matter.

John Wood Jr:

So I'm glad we got to have one.

Brant Evans:

Well, I'm checking out grateful.

Brant Evans:

John really awesome to have this conversation.

John Wood Jr:

Checking out grateful.

Jordan Bowman:

Yeah.

Jordan Bowman:

I'm checking out with a lot of, a lot of Dragon Ball Z that I need to watch.

John Wood Jr:

We're really here to do.

Brant Evans:

It's awesome, man.

Brant Evans:

Boom.

Brant Evans:

Last word, John.

Brant Evans:

Thank care.

Brant Evans:

Be safe, man.

Brant Evans:

Be well.

Brant Evans:

All

John Wood Jr:

right, you too.

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