This weeks podcast is glorious leadership stories from 3 glorious women who are members of the expedition. You will want to listen to this episode twice, I have no doubt. Because there are so many AH Hah’s about leadership.  DR Rhouba Mhaissen on “they started calling me a leader so I realised I would have to behave like one”, Erica Su on “have the courage to self define your story and not worry about people thinking you are self limiting. It’s your story no one else’s “ and Folawe Omikunle talking about her head teacher who showed her what “leading with love” meant so that she has done it ever since.

Julia Middleton 0:25

Welcome, welcome. And welcome. It's three days to go till the expedition starts, that first meeting of the 24 women who are on the expedition to find the approach to leadership that resonates with women, so that more women say, if that's leadership, I'm in. Three days to go. And with three days to go, it feels like a time to sort of sit back and to simply enjoy the moment. And of course, it's the 10th podcast that I've done. Your messages of good luck for the expedition have been coming in, and I love you for every single one of them. Thank you so very, very much. I'll only read one from Paola. 'Julia, do you realise just how important the expedition is?' says Paola. And the answer is yes, we do, more every day. But we're staying chilled, at least for now. So this podcast, this tenth podcast, is simply, it's three women who are on the expedition, talking about the leadership learning journey. And the aha, the moments of when they went, aha, aha, I've learned something now. There are moments of aha that they'll share with us. The first will be Rouba, a Syrian. The second will be Erica, who is Chinese. And the third will be Folawe who is Nigerian. The truth is that this this episode is almost certain to give you indigestion. I give you a health warning. It is a very, very rich episode. I will make no attempt to summarise what Rouba, Erica and Folawe say, because somehow I feel wrong. There's too much that's too rich, and they make their points too beautifully. So if you think you have set aside just over half an hour to listen to this episode, I think you'd better double it. I suspect you will be listening to it again.

Julia Middleton 2:27

So first, Rouba, whose childhood gave her the foundations to become a leader, but Rouba didn't really know she was a leader till everyone started calling her a leader. And at that point, I think she realised that she actually had to become a leader. But let me let me leave it to Rouba to talk this one through.

Julia Middleton 2:52

Rouba, am I right that your journey has had some quite momentous moments as a leader?

Rouba 2:58

I think my journey as a leader had some momentous moments, yes. The first, I think, turning point in my life was the fact that I'm a mistake child. I'm fourth of four children and my parents had decided to get only three kids. And I was born after the civil war at a time where my siblings were already older, and I was the youngest child. So I was always given a lot of love, a lot of attention, a lot of belief in me that I could do things and be something when I grew up. And I think this is something that lacks a lot in our societies and communities, that girls are brought up to fulfil a certain role in society, and they are not encouraged to fulfil another. So I think in my opinion, upbringing is one of the major elements in my story. But that made me when I faced a situation where I had to be a leader, I already had that background where I carried so much love and people believing in me and that I could do something. I think one of the major turning points, though of my leadership journey, is when I moved outside the region for my studies. And this is because it was at that point that the Syrian revolution had started. It was at that point where I was 22. And I heard about the first 40 Syrian families that moved to Lebanon and became refugees. And I just knew in my heart that I had to do something about this.

Rouba 4:26

And I did and I took the car and I started Sawa as a form of a small initiative. But never did it occurr to me that this is going to be the starting point of my leadership journey. But I remember I then was going back to London to continue my studies and I was invited to the parliament to speak about Syria and I had never done public speaking before. And I had never done anything like that. And I was so scared and afraid about going into Parliament as a 22 year old to talk about politics and to talk about, you know, human rights and refugees. And it was that leap of faith that I had to take because at that moment, I realised a lot of men and women in my country are dying. And the least I could do was to step up and talk about what they were facing. So I think for me, it was, it wasn't even a choice, it was a responsibility that I had to be in that role, because so many people were doing bigger sacrifices. But what helped me also was that I was outside my context. And I wasn't in a place where, the place that I grew up, it wasn't in the place where women were expected to act or be a certain way, or maybe women of that country were, but since I was outside of that context, I was operating outside of the norms, the paradigms, the structures that were designed for any leader or any person in that context. I could just be whoever I wanted to be. And I could reinvent and think about my identity differently. And I could reflect daily on what I was going through and reinvent who Rouba was as a person, as a human, as a leader, as you know, as a public speaker, as someone who is trying to do something bigger than herself.

Rouba 6:07

So I think the ability and the space to reflect on my journey and change it and change who I was, was definitely one of the biggest silver linings of my leadership journey. But despite all of that, and despite that Sawa, became an organisation. And Sawa almost became even a movement of educating people about refugees and reinventing what ownership and agency means for people. It was also a journey for me to discover myself as a leader, because I didn't know I was a leader until much later, when people started calling me a leader in my own, in my own, you know, a context in my own area of work. And I think this is something that has to do with our womanhood very much, that we are scared to recognise ourselves and hold ourselves to our true value in the environment where we are working. So you can call it impostor syndrome, you can call it just, you know...

Julia Middleton 7:09

You can call it something much nicer than that. You could call it not imposter syndrome, but you could call it humility, and you could say...

Rouba 7:17

Being humble.

Julia Middleton 7:18

Yeah, you weren't throwing your weight around. And and, and in fact, if you had been throwing your weight around, no one would have followed you.

Rouba 7:25

Exactly, probably. And I think a lot of people were coming to me for advice, and even in my own team, and I was always thinking, who am I to give them this advice, you know, like, who am I to tell them if what they're doing is right or wrong, or if you know, how it could be done differently. And then I remember one of my big aha moments during my leadership journey was when one of the first people in my team left the team. She had to travel to Germany. And we had this sort of like, I don't want to call it exit interview, but it was more like an open hearted chat about what was the key moments in her journey with us as an organisation, as a team and as a community. And she told me, 'Rouba, I expected much more guidance and mentorship from you'. And she was a very strong woman, and she had a very strong personality, and I always kind of, you know, it, almost it was not a rivalry. But I always thought like, we were on the same, you know, at par with each other in the team, although I was her manager. And it was at that point that I realised that, okay, this, the way I look at myself is not the same as the way people look at me. And maybe it's about time that I step up into the shoes of how, you know, of where it's about time I start acting in accordance to where people really see me, which is in a leadership position. And I think that was a very eye opener for me.

Julia Middleton 8:50

Did that make you more lonely?

Rouba 8:52

It definitely made me more lonely to realise I was a leader because, you know, you aren't told what you do right as a leader. You're never told what you do right. And people start putting you on a pedestal somehow. Even your close friends, even your family, your team, your community. And definitely, it's a lonely journey, but it's a very rewarding journey at the same time. Butyou have to start, accept, first accept that you are in that journey. And I think that's a big moment for women. The moment when they accept that, yes, they are a leader. And when you accept that you start, you know, developing and learning, you start realising what you don't want to be as a leader, what are the traits that you don't want to be when you start creating, you know, creating a culture around you and and you realise that, that culture, it's much harder to be inclusive, to be empathetic, to be... you're going to pay a much bigger price, but this is the kind of leadership you want. And this is the kind of path you want. And you realise also that people look up to you for strength. And, you know, I, as we always say, you know, you can't, you can't show your weak part parts always. Yes, it's very important to be vulnerable sometimes and to show that you're human, but a lot of times people are looking towards you for strength, to give them that vision. People are looking at you to, you know, to make them believe in themselves that they are capable. And you realise that one word from you has a lot of power on the people who are around you. And it's at this point that, you know, it's scary, somehow not only lonely, it's scary, because you start realising that you do have power on people around you.

Have you had moments when you've been really very frightened?

You know, I have I questioned myself a lot. And we work in a context where we are working in a warzone, we are working in a war context, and some of the decisions you make will impact people's lives, people's futures, people's families. And sometimes we'll also change the course of history for the country you're working on. I'm not saying one decision from me would change how things happen in Syria, but it's the addition of all of these small decisions by people like me, who will definitely impact the future of our country in our region. And I think when you realise that power that you have, it's very frightening, because that increases the responsibility. And you realise that people are looking at you for answers. And sometimes you don't have these answers. And you have to come up with these answers along the way. So I think these are the moments where you feel a bit scared or frightened about your leadership position or your leadership journey.

Thank you, Rouba. It was an honour to hear your story, to hear the aha moments during that journey of leadership.

Erica's story comes next. And it's a very different story, and very much illustrates just the diversity of women who are on the expedition. Erica is a very senior woman in a global financial services firm, and she's based out of Beijing. She talked to me a lot about just how important it is that it is your story, your story, and no one else's, just how important it is that it's your decisions that define your story. And that when you make those decisions, that you should do so without fearing that the people around you are thinking you're self limiting, but more that you are absolutely clear that you are self defining. It's a very, very interesting story, and illustrates how hard it is in huge organisations to keep hold of your story, your self defining story.

Erica, why did you use that expression, 'it's my story, nobody else's, this is my story'.

Because you use your own, you're going to drive your own journey and not of somebody else, somebody else can't help you. And so you cannot live in somebody else kind of profile... expression about yourself, because you are the one who writing this journey, not somebody else. When people say oh, you have been nominated, or you being put up for this position as a big promotion, you will feel honoured of course, but on the same time, you also feel tremendous pressure to really have to say yes, because otherwise you say okay, what if I say no, if I'm not quite sure what what I'm supposed to do is the message I'm sending to the people, my sponsor, right? Am I letting them down? I send a message that I'm not ambitious enough. Not aggressive at all. I just want an easy life. So this kind of messaging your concern to worry about because of that. That's one part. Secondly is you don't want to use your say or to let them down by sometimes. So you have the pressure you may not really thinking clearly,

There's a real danger, I suppose of, you know, people wanting you to do it so much. And you and you just sort of falling into it because you don't want to disappoint anybody.

Yeah, that's definitely because you'll find yourself either not ready or not happy or not capable.

You gave me a fabulous list of the questions you ask yourself when someone suggests a new role to you. Let me go through them if I may, because I'd love to. So your first one you said me is that you ask yourself can I do it. And that is because you think competence comes first?

Yeah, I think, yeah, competency come first. And also, you have to have a realistic assessment about your capability and also the job requirements. You won't be 100% match, of course, but it should be reasonably reconciled.

And then you you said, your second question is, do I want the responsibility. What's behind that one?

Because in I think the in most of the world, sometimes if you're getting hired into the position, the same position for men and a woman take probably people will, using more scrutiny to evaluating your performance versus your male peer, just because of just naturally probably, sometimes you have to be the is the natural community buyers. So you just need to be prepared to getting in front of that kind of scrutiny. And also keep people how people look at that. And also, because responsibility, you're taking, encoding some tough decisions to you're forced to make. You're not that kind of person, you that were comfortable making those really tough decisions, then and also thinking about you're responsible for how many people's career future, I mean, success of the business, accountability and also direction of the organisation. Then I think then that's where you come to the question, say, Do I really want that, and sometimes you feel, or maybe I'm better off to do step down a little bit, and not step down, to step one step back a little bit and do something more comfortable or not stretch so much. That that's kind of the thinking too I had.

And I suppose that comes to the point of, 'it's my story, not yours', is, you know, I might want that responsibility, but I might not want it now. And this is my story, not yours.

Yeah, that's true. And I think one, that's definitely the case. And also sometimes, you also need to draw a line. It's not just trying to say not to be able to step out of your comfort zone, you have to be able to have the courage to step out your comfort zone to stretch, but how much you want to stretch yourself is really a personal judgement. If you find yourself in my situation if I'm stretched too much, then I feel like even though people say you should go for that I will say wait a second, I want to step back. I don't want to go for that because I feel the stretch is too much, not only for me personally career wise, work wise also talking about the family and other things you want to you want to thinking along, they are going through the same the journey with you together.

I suppose that leads into the the third thing you say is 'Am I okay with the sacrifices?' That makes sense doesn't it? To to actually analyse and not to pretend that there aren't sacrifices.

That's true, definitely you have to analyse and thinking about the sacrifice, you're going to do because remember, I mean you potentially one thing you probably easily double your travel time. Travel time is out of town time. So when you'll be able to do that, your significant others willing to accommodating that is are you open to thinking about maybe missing your the kids' events, etc, all these things and on different stage of your your career and your family life, your personal life, you have to evaluate. It's something of a sacrifice, but I will get back later or something if you miss it sacrifice you will never get it back. This is all something people think in different different way to different situation and scenario and and events. So that's how they think that they're making decisions,

Which leads to your fourth, which was, I thought, a really interesting one is, what will I miss?

That's true. I think one of things you moving that is you still have a passion of your current things, or you feel fully passionate about things you are able to take the new things you're going to pick up. I think that's really also a very important element for me to judge every single move of my career. I'm really excited about one of them do even though a lot of uncertainty, things I don't know and but I still feel very excited and passionate and then you should go for that. But then you feel feel very passionately about things I'm doing right now and then but then if I go into the next one, I feel the energy and it also does harm you're required to do the things right now could be a It further maybe diluted where you have to move on something like you mentioned early, some students don't feel very, very enjoyable or politics and managing people conflict, etc. Then you think about okay, is that really worth it? Do I have to prove my value by just being a one by rec hire? Oh, I just stay current situation which I feel more comfortable, more more happy, more enjoyable, and the more sense of achievement.

IT becomes history. And then and the then your next question you ask yourself is 'Do I have the power base to support me in this new role?'

That's actually very important, particularly, because we are running a paper business. So you have to have the people who support you to get things done, you may not have everybody as your subordinates to be your troops and to execute everything, everything, every single thing you ask them to do. You will be able to have your decent size, have a power base to to get to carry out a new initiative to show a results and to show outcome of an initiative. So that's very critical.

And then your last one is, 'Will I accept the trade offs on my health?'

health wise, if you get into your limit to stretch too much, then you have this mental and your physical body will react to that pressure. And that stretch, that pressure will be the one that you don't want to go that far. I mean, that's that's really what I mean.

And you use a wonderful expression, which is, which which interests me a lot as well. It's, it's not about being... these questions are not about being self limiting. They're about being self defining. And I suppose what, the outside world sees them as self limiting, and almost goads you into doing what you shouldn't do, because you don't want to appear to be self limiting. And what you're saying is no, you've got to define yourself.

Yeah, that is absolutely true. And also is takes more courage to do to do self defining than worry about people thinking you are self limiting, taking more, much more courage to say no, if not suppose to say yes.

The courage to say no and self define? Yes.

Our last leadership story comes from Folawe. I interviewed Folawe. But as you'll see, she rapidly started interviewing me. A few years ago, I met Folawe, and she sang me a song called 'No man is an island'.

Folawe, the first time we met you sang that song, why?

I remember that when we met and I remember like singing that song to you. It was very organic, you know, where that song came from. And that was a song that I learned from the school that I attended, part of my primary education in Benin, and where the, you know, the school owner, who was also the head of school, Mrs Edna, an African American who was married to a Togolese, you know, who set up this international schools both in Togo and Benin Republic. And this school had, you know, such a diverse group of Africans, you know, who were who were attending the school. And I remember, you know, this song, where, you know, she just was saying, No man is an island, but I think the song also just reflected the essence of the school, you know, where, you know, when I think about who I become today, the values that I, you know, that I've continued to shape my life, you know, I think a lot of it, you know, emerged from that school, and it was just how she saw potential in every child, like, you know, you know, children could be naughty, and we could be all kinds of words of negative adjectives, but this woman would see value in like, the, you know, the child who was least expected to have any potential in like, the most disruptive child in that school, and she would see some type of talent, you know, and like, I would see how, because she would see that and because she was, you know, like, so into it, like everybody was sort of, like rally round, even the most problematic child and what have you. And you know, I think that that was one of the things that you know, and that school had and I and also I saw that even with all the different teachers, right, you know, who were in that school, and you know, when I was sharing the song with you, I just felt like in that moment, like I remember the song because she taught us that song. And you know, No man is an island. No man stands alone. Each man's joy is joy to me. Each man's grief is my own. We need one another. So I must defend each man as my brother, each man as my friend.

And so when I think about it, you know, like the teachers, you know, the staff who worked at the school, you know, the parents of the children, the school, like literally everybody sort of like played a role in just like lifting one another up and just supporting each other, you know, and we went to that school, you know, post the, during the regime of the military regime in Nigeria, you know, and it was a time where, you know, growing up as a child, I don't even think that I recognise the support that I needed to be able to live a full life, you know, the support from just emotional support, moral support, like literally having to uproot my life, you know, leave my, my existing friends, you know, in the school that I was attending back in Nigeria, and then coming into this community that was just so full of love and support. And that just felt like, you know, family away from my usual home.

and I remember, I will never forget you singing it to me, I remember holding my, my camera up so that I can capture it. And whenever I'm miserable, I play that back to myself. And whenever I want to tease you, I play it to other people.

I know, I'm glad, I'm glad that you captured that moment.

And what does leading with love mean?

I say that leading with love Julia is, you know, I think it's really just around, being almost like being kind, you know, to, to everyone around you. Like, I think that, you know, in this whole thing of just like relationships and meeting people and working with people, I think it's important to acknowledge that, you know, everyone is, you know, has some battle and something that they're dealing with, like, everyone is trying to be better, everyone is trying to give of themselves. And it's almost like just having that kindness within you to sort of like, you know, operate and work from a place of knowing that, you know, everyone has some type of battle that they're dealing with, everyone is dealing with something that you're not aware of. And so have that in the back of your mind, as you're engaging with people. Be kind to people, respect them, and don't be judgmental. And I think when I say lead with love, or when I say that I learned leading with love, you know, from Mrs Tunu, you know, that was how I saw her operate with people, from the cleaners, you know, to the security at the school to the teachers to the students themselves, right? It wasn't just, you know, from a place of this child just wants to be disruptive, you know, just because, you know, they're always like, a deeper, you know, Have you had breakfast, you know, you know, how did you wake up today, like, there was always that just, you know, intention to, to know how or to know why certain things were happening. And so when I take that back, you know, into just my own life I need to have that has shaped how I engage with people, it's really just around, you know, before you engage, like, just know that the reason why someone is perhaps acting a certain way could be because of deeper issues that they might be dealing with, and that you have no idea of, you know, so just be kinder in your engagement and your relations with people.

That's a challenge for me, I'm going to be leading the expedition. And in my usual fashion, I'll be so determined to get there and to determine to understand everything and, and the ability to take everybody and recognise there are other things going on in their lives. Sometimes I get quite driven and forget all of that. So it's, it's not the easiest thing to do, is it?

Absolutely, absolutely. Julia, it is not the easiest thing to do.

So if that's one thing that you learned from your head teacher, give me one other thing you've learned, another great aha moment about leadership for you.

I came into leadership without intention, like thinking that I was going to become a leader, but then I almost found myself in a space where I had to lead. And being an introvert who, you know, just always wanted to be by herself and not, you know, really have people who wouldn't, you know, who would be upset with me or who didn't quite like me, I always found I ran away from difficult conversations. I, you know, I would rather just like, you know, make sure that everyone was fine and happy. And I think one leadership moment, you know, had to be a quote that I saw and I'm not sure you know, who came up with that quote, but it said if you want to be liked, you know, you can sell sell ice creams and you know and not be a leader and I think that for me, that moment just made me realise, like, you know that being a leader doesn't mean that everybody will love you. And being a leader doesn't mean that everybody will be happy with the decisions, you know, that you have to make. But you know, you have to make the decisions in the best interests of the cause, you know, that you're you're working towards, or that you're fighting for, you know, but you cannot make a decision based on the fact that you want people to like you, or you want people to, you know, not get angry or not get upset with you. And I think for me, it was one of the most game changing periods of my life, like just seeing that quote, and just having it at the back of my mind, as I went on with, with my leadership journey, I really, I don't know if that's something that you have, you know, also had to grapple with,

you know, my father used to say to me, never become a leader, if you want a round of applause, because you'll never, you'll never get one, you'll never get a round of applause, and you'll just be waiting forever. Just just become a leader, because there's a thing that has to be achieved. And that's important.

I'm taking that one, and I'm taking notes, I'm putting it down right now. Never become a leader, if you want a round of applause. Wow but that is tough Julia, you know, because you sort of also want to be acknowledged, like you also want to, you know, you want someone to give you a pat on the back and say, you know, you're doing something good. And so how do you keep going, you know, without expecting, or, you know, hoping like, how do you do that, Julia? You've been in this, you know, longer than I've been.

Well, you see, I've got almost the opposite problem, is that if people did give me a round of applause, I'd be embarrassed about it. Not that anybody ever has, but they wouldn't. And, and, and also, I think you and I have this in common. I think I'm so impatient about what I want to do next, that I never slow down for long enough, that even if there was a round of applause going on, I didn't think I'd hear it. Because I'd be charging on to the next thing.

I could, I totally, totally resonate with that, Julia. And but I think I heard something, you know, a while just around this, because, you know, I definitely think that I'm the same way. But I heard something recently, where it just seemed like, you have to stop, you know, like, almost slow down, you know, in leadership because of this sort of like impatience, and just this sense of urgency around the cause that we're fighting for. And it's like, well, you need to take breaks, and you need to slow down, and you need to pause, you know, just to sort of take in the good that you're already doing, or the impact or the results of what you've already been able to accomplish. And just so that you're, you then like, you know, recharged from that and you push on from that, you know, so I don't know how that sort of like contradicts with, you know, just like, you know, going and not really slowing down to take in, you know, the good or the result of what one is saying. I'm hoping that, gosh, we can explore all of this, like, you know, during the expedition.

we will. I think now you're going to see why I am, three days before the first meeting, quite so chilled. How could I possibly not be chilled with people like Rouba, Erica and Folawe in the team. But I was right, wasn't I? You're gonna have to replay this episode. And make sure that you've got a pen and paper to hand because I think there's so much you want to write down quickly because there's so much learning, there's so many great tips, so much wonderful aha's.

So I think I'll leave you with another song, written specifically, and written and performed specifically for the expedition by Uma. Enjoy it. I'll catch up with you next week and tell you how it went.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. Your voice and perspectives are crucial to the success of the expedition and we would love you to become a partner to women emerging. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the Women Emerging group on LinkedIn.