We know things need to change in our church, but where do we start?

In this episode of the Pivot Podcast, host Dwight Zscheile addresses the common struggle church leaders face in navigating change with guest Dr. Ramon Pastrano, a specialist in transformational leadership. Together they explore the challenges of making changes in churches, highlighting pitfalls and proposing a better approach, emphasizing the significance of the design thinking process.

SHOW NOTES:

Faith+Lead Academy Course with Dr. Ramon Pastrano around Human Centered Design: https://faithlead.org/course-lp/spirit-led-solutions-through-human-centered-design/.

Dwight Zscheile: One of the most frequent statements we hear from church leaders today is we know things need to change in our church, but we don't know how to do that well. Many people don't want change, even if they can see that it's necessary. How might we lead change in ways that are spirit led, inclusive, faithful, and effective? If you've been asking yourself those questions lately, then you are in the right place today. Because in this episode, we will dive into the challenge of leading change in the church with practical steps. Hello everyone, I'm Dwight Zscheile. Welcome to the Pivot podcast. This is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. We're really excited to have Doctor Ramon Pastrano with us today. Ramon is the founder and board member of Twin Cities based Impact Lives Incorporated and founder of Third Sphere, LLC, a center for transforming leadership in cultural competence, social innovation and entrepreneurship. Ramon has a rich professional background in ministry, the military, medical device industry, and international development, and he has particular expertise in human centered design. Ramon is the lead instructor for our Faith Lead Academy course on that topic. Ramon, welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Ramon Pastrano: Thank you, Dwight.

Dwight Zscheile: So let's jump in and discuss some of the reasons why change can be really hard, especially in churches. Why is that?

Ramon Pastrano: Wow. That's a that's a great question. What I have experienced, you know, some of the work that I've been doing is that change is often challenging for several reasons, and most of them are rooted in the complexities of human behavior, social structures and psychological factors. Some of those, you know, some of those elements are like, uh, ingrained beliefs and habits that individuals may be carrying. And some are really hard to change. Some of them are resistant to the unknown. You know, oftentimes people are uncomfortable with, because they are uncertain about, uh, t the next step, what the next phase is going to look like, look like they might be resistant to stepping out of their comfort zone and embracing something that may seem unfamiliar, and it can be perceived as a risky or threatening to them. The other reason is usually fear of loss. Individuals may fear losing elements of their own identity, their status, their security, especially if it is, associated with an uncertain future. So the fear of loss can really create resistance to change. The other reason is what I call social dynamic and peer pressure. And this had to do with social norms and peer pressure within a particular culture. That can strongly influence, you know, the individuals or the congregation behavior. The fear of being ostracized or facing social disapproval can also make individuals hesitant to embrace change. The other one is one that I, uh, experienced quite a bit is when people experience a cognitive dissonance or a disorienting dilemma. And that happens when conflicting beliefs or behaviors come into play, so that discomfort can create resistance to change as people seek to maintain, an internal, you know, consistency within them. And as you know, with the bombardment that we're receiving of, information coming from multiple channels and coming so fast, people are struggling with discerning, you know, what is truth from fact? What is report versus what is opinion and all of that, you know, contribute to this resistance to change, especially in this moment right now. And then the last one, that I usually see is this lack of understanding and awareness of why the change is needed. Sometimes individuals may not be fully aware of the need for change, and effective communication and education are also an essential component, you know, to overcoming this barrier. But the most important, I think, you know, element to remember is that the way that we understand the world, the way that we understand, you know, change those mental models that we carry, not only provide us with a way to reinterpret, you know, life as we experience it, but also provide a cognitive foundation, validation and psychological and emotional security. When that is threatened, people will resist change.

Dwight Zscheile: Wow. So there's a lot there to unpack. Let's think about it from the leadership perspective for a moment and dig in a bit more. So what are some common pitfalls, pitfalls that church leaders will make and congregations can actually make as well, when they're trying to lead a change process?

Ramon Pastrano: Yeah. So one of the biggest, pitfalls, Dwight, is that I see often is the, you know, the idea that although we have language, we don't have shared meaning. And to assume that everyone is interpreting what is being communicated to them in the same manner can really lead to a lot of confusion. So language, yes, we do have it, but we don't have shared meaning. People are reinterpreting things very differently and we need to account for that. So for example, is a change that we're looking for or is it transformation. So I like to make that distinction right at the beginning because change is doing things differently. While transformation is a new way of being. And uh, the key is to have a common set of definitions or approaches and a simple checklist that everyone can be familiar with. Another common pitfall is thinking that transformational change is a process. It's a process, but not an event. Right? So people think that, transformation is an event, but it's actually a process. Transformation goes through many different stages, and those stages really build on each other. And the other thing to remember is that it is affected by both internal and external forces that need to be identified and takes, and that takes time. So church leaders may feel pressure to accelerate the process of change or transformation. And they may skip some of these stages. But in reality, there's no shortcuts that I know that actually really work. So, when I, when I, you know, have this conversation with leaders, one of the first things that I ask them to do, or to remind them that, this begins with an intentional process of self-awareness and a clear understanding of why things that need to be, uh, why things need to be changed.

Dwight Zscheile: So that brings to mind a couple of thoughts. One is just the leader's own presence and identity and ability to self-reflect in this process. And then also for the community, a sense of what are the realities that are actually facing us, right? Um, and say a little more about about those two elements.

Ramon Pastrano: Yes. Uh, self-awareness as, you know, as, as a leader, we all have blind spots, and the blind spots really have to do with the way that we process information, the way that we interact with each other, the way the places from where we make decisions. And oftentimes we are not aware of what our unconscious brain is doing when we're actually interacting with these issues and understanding, having a process to, um, to really reflect on what is informing our thinking and why our thinking is informed that way, can really help us understand the way that our leadership shows, uh, shows up in this kind of situation. And then communication, clear communication, you know, really helping understand and articulate why what we are, what we have in place right now is not working and why there is better than here than then what is that gap? We need to identify what that gap is and how we can close that gap. People are always yearning to know, how are we going to get there? And not only how are we going to get there, but can you take me there? Whatever there is, whatever is that place that we are, envisioning to be.

Dwight Zscheile: Wonderful, well, so let's explore the design thinking process specifically a bit, and how it might be different than how many churches tend to approach change.

Ramon Pastrano: Yes. I have used this process with many, you know, churches, the educational institutions, non-profit organizations and even, you know, businesses. And the process is the same is just need to the context need to be understood in which is being applied. So human centered design is a great approach to problem solving. And that creating innovative way to, prioritize understanding and addressing, you know needs. And what I really appreciate about this, Dwight, is, is that it's centered on the user or the people that are having, you know, or having, you know, the problem or trying to, you know, to solve the problem. It is user focused, uh, design and seeks to create solutions that are intuitive, effective. And it's a very enjoyable process when done correctly.

Dwight Zscheile: So what are the stages of the design thinking process? And for maybe for listeners who or viewers who have not experienced that before, like what's what does it actually look like?

Ramon Pastrano: Yeah, it's a very simple, you know, simple process. At its core human centered design recognizes the designing that designing for people's needs involve empathizing with their experience, motivations, and challenges and involving them in the process. The process that we have designed here at Luther Seminary started just a little bit earlier. You know, it began with a journey of self-awareness first. And one of those tools that we have integrated into this process is not only system thinking, but it's also understanding a process for understanding and reflecting about what is the problem that we want to solve. So we use something called the press model. PRESS. The first P is about problem awareness. Do I understand the problem that I'm trying to solve? And where this problem is coming from? This is to avoid designing solutions for things that are not the real problem. So this is where you see churches or, you know, faith institutions, addressing, supposedly addressing a problem but not understanding the root cause of the problems. And then other problems emerge, you know, instead of the desired solution. So this is to avoid putting Band-Aids or to address, you know, the symptoms rather than the root cause of the problem. The second R is root cause. Root cause analysis is understanding again, where did this problem come from? The E is about empathy. Do I care enough about the problem and the people that is harming or that is, you know, bothering? And the first S is a strategy. Do I have a strategy to correct the problem, and the last one is probably one of the most important one. S, the last S is about sacrifice. Am I willing to do whatever it takes to solve this problem? So these are things that I think are really important, you know, for leaders to consider before even beginning the human centered design process. And then, when it comes to that, you know, the human centered design process is very simple. Uh, we follow the design thinking model, you know, of empathy ideation, you know, and, you know, all the way to iteration and prototyping, etc. but without a clear understanding of what is the problem that we're trying to solve, what is holding those, problems in place? You know, the you know, it can be hit or miss for some.

Dwight Zscheile: Wonderful. So let's unpack those steps a little bit more. And I love that the first, early in that stage of design thinking there is there's empathy. There is compassion, which.

Ramon Pastrano: Yes.

Dwight Zscheile: Which is so important. Right. There's a real heart for the people facing the challenge. And it's not in a it's not kind of out of a posture of judgment initially, or, hey, why can't these people get on board? But it's really more let's, let's listen deeply, uh, with heart to what their actual experience is.

Ramon Pastrano: Absolutely, absolutely. So it's a it's a compassionate and empathetic way of listening to people and trying to understand, people from their perspective and many other, you know, perspective as well. So the process, begins with, an introduction, a simple introduction to design thinking. First thing we want to do is to make sure that everybody is on the same page. We want to speak the same language. We want to understand that, uh, that this is a human centered approach to problem solving. So the first step is empathy. And empathy is about the importance of you know, empathizing with the users, with the stakeholders, understanding what is going on, what is it, what is that experience that they're having? Uh, the second step is defining what is the problem, what is the challenge that we are trying to, you know, to solve and, trying to get to or formulate a clear and focused, problem statement just to make sure that we're not missing the ball, that we are really addressing the issues that we are trying to address. The next step is what we call ideation. This is probably one of the most fun, you know, steps. This is where we just, go through a process of generating a lot of ideas and encouraging people to be non-judgmental in this process, meaning, you know, listen to all those ideas, whether they might work or not and, just make it a very collaborative ideation process. Uh, and then after the ideation is pretty much selecting those, you know, best ideas and begin the prototyping. And prototyping is also another fun stage where people begin to visualize the, their idea. And, uh, this can take several steps, you know, within the prototyping steps, because you have to iterate, you have to iterate, you have to change, you have to, you know, get, some input. You have to seek, you know, other perspectives. And, until you feel comfortable with a, with a solution or a product that you think is addressing, you know, the need that you have. And then testing, testing is going to be important. So this is where you take your, your, your product to gather feedback and insights, you know, to inform perhaps further interaction interactions or just, you know, moving forward with the next steps. So this is a great tool to really help leaders, create more collaboration, more teamwork, uh, be more inclusive of ideas. And, really, you know, lean on the congregations and, you know, the staff to, get them involved in this, designing the solutions to whatever changes or problem that they're trying to solve.

Dwight Zscheile: So let's think about this specifically in a ministry context, because you know, I can imagine a common pattern in many churches and say their challenge is something like, you know, we want to maybe reach some young families in our neighborhood, and often churches will their first impulse will be to go straight to the ideation phase of, well, what's what are some ideas of some ways we can, you know, reach some young families in our neighborhood and then maybe sort of build something even quite expensive initially, um, as a program offering or a new ministry, or even hire a staff person to, to do something for those young families without actually having done the first steps of really deep, empathetic listening to those very people. So, so say, say more about kind of how this can play out in a church context and maybe some examples that come to your mind.

Ramon Pastrano: Yeah, there are some ways out there, some better than others. And one of the strategies that I have seen, you know, work the best is when there is a clear vision and a clear purpose. And when they those visions and purpose can be clearly articulated, it does help members see the positive impact on the mission and the ministry. The other aspects are inclusive the inclusive decision making involving all key stakeholders and decision making in the process. And then of course, educating and training. You know, individuals, you know, people congregations about the change that is going to be you know, happen so that there are not misconceptions. And then, uh, uh, understanding that this changes are going to happen in increments, that they happen gradually rather than all at once. In the process of, you know, making those, you know, changes and experiencing that transformation, there has to be celebration, you know, those success. And the last one that I will say is pastoral leadership, that plays a really crucial role in guiding the congregation through the change, through the change. So one example I experienced recently was my own personal, you know, church, Mill City is moving to adopt another church, Elim Church in Minneapolis. There was a lot of meetings. The congregation was involved. The leadership of both congregations were involved during the process is took, you know, uh, a good amount of time. There was a discerning process. There was a lot of conversation, a lot of meetings, a lot of information. The communication was always clear. Expectations were managed. Decisions were made based on a lot of the stakeholders input. And there was constant, you know, training that was aligned with the vision and helping this, you know, change take place. So that's one example of, you know, how I've seen this cultural changes happen in churches. Along the process. Along, that process, there was a lot of human centered design also utilized to help us, uh, inform our, uh, our way forward.

Dwight Zscheile: So let's think theologically for a minute about this kind of approach to leading change. Um, you know, for people who would say, oh, this is just another technique from the business world. Um, how would you respond and how do you think about how God can work in this kind of process or the theological dimensions of it?

Ramon Pastrano: We all operate from different, you know, from different, you know, from different places. And this is why illuminating those blind paths, blind spots is so important for me as I teach and as I work with church leaders. What I tried to help them understand what is informed, what is informing this process for me, and what is informing this process for me is that God is the creator of everything in this world that is visible and invisible. I believe that, you know, all things were created by him for him. And in him all things hold together. So that foundation, that belief, helps you understand that, you know that there is only one world. There's not such a thing, in my opinion, as a secular world and a spirit world, but it's the one world created by God and therefore, right? So everything all of these, things that, you know, that we can come up with all these ideas, our ideas that can be used, you know, to support our ministry, our work, and they're transferable. So one of the biggest "Aha moments" that I had, before I became a follower of Christ, before my own personal conversion was that I used to work in the military. I used to work in the medical field and the things that I learned there, all those leadership concepts as I, you know, began my journey in seminary, I realized that a lot of the leadership concepts and a lot of things that I learned, you know, in my previous life were actually rooted in, theological, you know, it has a theological foundation. So I realized at that moment that, wow, okay, some of these things are actually, you know, in here in this book, you know, called the Bible. And that to me, you know, helped me change my mental models and my mindset when it comes to making judgment or decisions about, well, this is not, you know, this might not work or here or there because it's coming from a different perspective.

Dwight Zscheile: As I listened to you describe that design thinking process, you know, one of the things that comes to my mind is how God in Christ meets us compassionately, where we are and speaks our language, right? This is the kind of deep logic of the incarnation. And, I think for many churches today that are disconnected from their neighbors, that kind of move towards simple practices of listening compassionately. And so, for instance, to go back to this, you know, made up example of reaching young families, right? So, so if the church's impulse is we need to offer a service or worship service for young families or maybe some kind of particular program. But actually, if we take this journey and find some of those young families in the neighborhood to actually listen to compassionately, we may discover that they're looking for something very different, that the actual definition of the real felt need that they have. Right. The struggle that they have, the yearning that they have might be quite different than what we imagined at the outset. And then the design thinking process invites us creatively to imagine how we can respond to that. But then rather than build something really expensive and elaborate, it's a prototype. And so I wanted to share a little bit more about what a prototype in ministry might look like.

Ramon Pastrano: So when it comes to prototyping again, it's the first thing that we need to learn is, uh, iterative process always changing with always adding. And it's okay, you know, to make mistakes, this is not the time to look, you know, for, you know, perfection. This is where the people that are designed designing begin to create tangible representation of, you know, the solution to the potential, you know, to the problem that they are addressing. And this is also another stage, you know, another thing to remember about prototyping is that this also allows, you know, the people that are designing the solution to explore, to test, to refine ideas, to bridge gaps, to conceptualize even all their ideas and implement and even pivot, maybe even recognizing that this, we're not in the right path. And we need to change that. So, it's a constant feedback loop, you know, of iterating, designing and making sure that we, that we have the right product and it doesn't the investment of time and finances is very minimal.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, so that's powerful. I hear you describing a process, an adventuresome process, if you will, of learning, of trying things out in relationship with the people who are facing the challenge, whether those be neighbors outside the church or even people within our congregations where we're trying to come up with new ways of being church faithfully in today's world. And, you know, it reminds me of those wonderful stories in Scripture of God's people really being led by the Holy Spirit on these kind of circuitous journeys where it's not quite clear where they're going to land when they start out. And like a lot of the book of Acts, is basically that kind of narrative. And then you're open in that process for being redirected through the experience. And I just that sounds so much more fun than sitting in a committee meeting, you know, trying to kind of do all this, think your way through it all on your own without actually, you know, trying things in relationship with the people facing the challenge. Sounds like a lot more fun, don't you think?

Ramon Pastrano: Yes, yes, it's a lot of fun. You see people creating either physical or digital or any type, you know, of structures or I mean, it's just so much fun when people are able to grab whatever they're inclined to grab and just build it right there on the spot. So it's a lot of fun. It's very collaborative it's, you know, it's very inclusive. And, you can see that, once people start building those prototypes, they smile, they laugh, you know, but it's always fun.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. So, you know, I think that energy is really important to name because I think a lot of churches right now are struggling with feeling like the energy is drained out of some of the things that they have been doing in some of the old approaches that are no longer, you know, feeling like they're connecting. And so this kind of way of working differently and prayerfully, sounds like it would, it is a very kind of energizing process and tapping really into the creativity energy of the Holy Spirit along the way. So you are the lead instructor for our Faith Lead Academy on demand course called "Spirit Led Solutions through Human Centered Design," which is linked in our show notes for today. Can you share just a few words about that course and how it might be helpful to people in ministry?

Ramon Pastrano: Yes. So this is an abbreviated and simple design thinking, you know, course. And it covers the fundamental concepts and stages of the design thinking, you know, process. So introduction to design thinking. Then we get into also understanding system thinking and system behavior. Empathy, the empathy stage. How to conduct those interviews, defining the problem that we're trying to solve. People then will have the opportunity to know how to ideate and how to facilitate those ideations processes and prototyping and then testing. And of course, the, you know, just really focusing again, back in the collaborative work and the team work and of course, then implementing some of those strategies and the other things do that this course will offer too is, some really good reflection and resources, you know, things that, you know, churches and church leaders and, lay leaders can really take with them as they continue, you know, because problems are not going to go away. So as they continue to address problems in the future.

Dwight Zscheile: Thank you so much. Well Ramon, thank you for joining us today on the Pivot podcast. And thank you all for tuning in. We'll see you next week for another episode.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faith org.