Episode Summary

Join Harry Duran, host of Vertical Farming Podcast, as he welcomes to the show, Chief Executive Officer and co-founder of LettUs Grow, Charlie Guy. LettUs Grow brings affordable food growing to the modern city through their patent-pending aeroponics technology. With a background in renewable energy consultancy and engineering design, Charlie is a proponent of tech for good and is passionate about all manners of sustainability. In this episode, Harry and Charlie discuss the work Charlie is doing at LettUs Grow to connect greenhouses with vertical farms. They talk about some of the benefits of aeroponics and technological advances that have been made in recent years. Finally, Charlie speaks to the connection between our food systems and our energy grids and shares what he’s most excited about for the future of LettUs Grow and the overall AgTech industry.

Episode Sponsor

CULTIVATD

Key Takeaways

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• 02:37 – Harry welcomes to the show Charlie Guy, CEO and co-founder of LettUs Grow, who talks about the personal and professional impact of Covid-19 and what inspired him to get involved in vertical farming
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• 
  
• 09:49 – How Charlie shares the origin story of LettUs Grow and their current offerings
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• 13:03 – Charlie expounds on their Drop & Grow platform and opportunities for growth
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• 
  
• 19:50 – Charlie talks about the work he’s doing to connect greenhouses with vertical farms
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• 23:24 – Charlie explains the various benefits of aeroponics and speaks to the advances in aeroponics technology
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• 27:50 – Changing trends Charlie has noticed in the vertical farming industry
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• 31:47 – Charlie discusses the connection between food and energy grids
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• 36:01 – What excites Charlie the most about opportunities for innovation in vertical farming and at LettUs Grow
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• 44:35 – Challenges Charlie has faced and lessons he’s learned as a leader at LettUs Grow
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• 45:55 – Charlie opens up about what community means to him and a tough question he’s recently had to ask himself
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• 50:31 – Harry thanks Charlie for joining the show and let’s listeners know where they can learn more about LettUs Grow and connect with Charlie
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Tweetable Quotes

“My background is in sustainable systems thinking and renewable energy. And just taking a look at the potential innovation in food was really exciting for me because there’s a whole raft of areas of innovation we could bring to the industry.” (11:29)

“We take a very open approach to working in academia. We take an open approach to try to push the boundaries of the industry and move things forward for everyone.” (19:40)

“For me, there’s a big disconnect between our food systems and our energy systems. Be that electrical energy or energy that goes into transporting produce around the world or the actual food item. I think if we want to address the big problems that we need to in climate and environmental issues then we need to start looking at food and energy in a more joined up way.” (32:09)

“We’ve seen some of the recent large investments into greenhouses and you can’t deny that’s linked to the growth of the vertical farming industry. And both the learnings from those that have been growing greenhouses for a long time and the trickle down technologies that can come from vertical farming into that space are really exciting.” (41:37)

“Community is that sense of collective belonging and collective connection. That connection with people and what that brings and enriches your life with.” (46:09)

Links Mentioned

Charlie’s LinkedIn

LettUs Grow Website

Link to Charlie’s Blog Post on Energy Grids

Link to UK Urban AgTech

Sponsor Info:

Cultivatd Website

Cultivatd Instagram

Cultivatd’s Twitter

Cultivatd’s Facebook

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Welcome

to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly

conversations with fascinating CEOs, Founders, and

agtech visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep

into the world of vertical farming with your host, Harry

Duran. Vertical Farming Podcast Season 3,

welcome back. If this is your first time listening, then you're in

for a treat. This is the show where I interview fascinating CEOs and founders of

the leading vertical farming companies from around the world. I'm your host, Harry

Duran. I was off last week. I was doing a bit of traveling across the

country and testing out some new camping gear with

my partner. We made it through Nebraska, Colorado,

South Dakota, and really had a nice relaxing time.

And it was important for me to take some time to

recharge and renew, and that's what I'm excited to have done.

And back in the saddle for this week's episode. Last week I spoke to David

Dennison, CEO of CubicFarms. If you haven't listened to it, definitely

check that one out. And this week I speak to Charlie Guy. He's the

CEO and co-founder of Lettuce Grow! Lettuce Grow brings affordable

food growing to the modern city through their patent-pending aeroponics technology.

With a background in renewable energy and engineering design, Charlie is a

proponent of tech for good and is passionate about all manners of

sustainability. In this episode, we discuss the work Charlie is doing at Lettuce Grow

to connect greenhouses with vertical farms, the benefits of aeroponics,

and technological advances that have been made in recent years. Finally, Charlie speaks

to the connection between our food systems and our energy grids and shares what he's

most excited about for the future of Lettuce Grow and the overall agtech

industry. Special thanks to our episode sponsor, Indoor AgCon. Whether you're

starting up or scaling up, Indoor AgCon can help grow your vertical farming

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$100 off registration with our promo code

VFPOD2021. Don't forget to sign

up for the Vertical Farming Weekly newsletter. Each week, our team member Daniel

brings you the latest and greatest in the world of vertical farming. Sign up today

at verticalfarmingweekly.com. If you enjoyed this episode or past

episodes, please leave a rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.

I'll be sure to read yours out next. Couldn't resist the pun. Let's get

started and learn more about Charlie and the Lettuce Factory.

Charlie Guy, CEO and co-founder of Lettuce Grow. Thank

you for joining me on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Lovely. Thanks, Harry. Really

a real pleasure to be here this evening. So where's home for you now?

Yeah, so I'm based in Bristol here in the UK, in the southwest.

Really, yeah, I guess exciting place to be for companies

and Maybe not on the map for global

vertical farming yet, but there's really exciting stuff going on here in terms of

local food production and food initiatives. I grew up

DJing, like actual vinyl and turntables, and so I follow the

electronic music scene pretty well. And there was a wave of DJs coming out of

Bristol years ago that I remember. Yeah, definitely.

There's a really big music scene, cultural scene here, a lot of

influential— yeah. A lot of influential artists who still,

like, yeah, some of them live just down the road. So yeah, good place to

be. What's been the biggest thing that you miss since everything

that's gone down with COVID and us slowly getting out of this

lockdown? I think, yeah, you've already nailed it. It's

the sort of the music and going

out and the sort of cultural aspects that make it such a vibrant place

to live here. But then also being able to travel, of course, being able to

see other places and Yeah, it's not been easy, but I guess

now we're starting to come out of things. And yeah, the pubs are open again

here. So yeah. That's always a good sign. It is always a good sign.

What was the impact? I know there's been a range of things that have happened

here in the States, obviously across the world, and countless

business impacted, lives lost. And if you had to think about what's been some of

the biggest takeaways for you, either personally or for the

company, as a result of having gone through the past 12 months?

Yeah, I guess personally

there's been a good focusing on what's important in

many ways in life. And yeah, you really notice when you can't see

certain people that you just take for granted that you

can pop down the road and see, or just over in London or

wherever they might be. Especially if you're a hugger.

Yeah. So yeah, that's one of the big

things, I guess, personally, realizing the importance of that, understanding the difference

between working from home and working in the office. Like,

yeah, it's a huge part of my life, what we do. And

yeah, when you're not, when you can't be in the office, that has a big

impact on your other wellbeing as well. And yeah, so that's been,

again, exciting recently for people to be

back in the office, new faces, new, yeah, like a

lot of excitement. for us. So I guess, yeah, that's some

of the personal impacts. And transitioning, as they often do

in my sort of position, into the work impacts, I think for us as a

business, yeah, that first instant adjustment to

working from home and that going very smoothly. But then

as time goes on, you realize the benefits of being

in-person, collaboration, all those things. I think On a

macro scale, it's great now that, well,

a lot of the issues in our food supply chains and in our food

systems were brought to the fore with some of the shocks that,

yeah, in the early months of the pandemic, that it really

brought conversations out of supermarket boardrooms and

into people's dining rooms and into people's, yeah, around people's

kitchen tables. So that's been something that's been really interesting to come out of this

is Seeing those conversations become more

part of the mainstream. Yeah, I think they're probably the main ones.

I guess the other big one actually for me is seeing the potential of people

to work together and solve huge problems. And

yeah, the response of, I guess, the whole

world of working together towards solving a

very difficult problem. and that level of

collaboration, which I guess when we look at the big climate change

issues coming down the track is going to be needed and more.

Yeah, it seems like the topic is top of mind for this new

administration in the US. So I think we're back on board, the

rest of the world, in terms of making that something that's important.

Interestingly enough, the conversation with past guests has been

around that topic of right place for this

technology at the right time. And I mean, I couldn't have planned to

have launched this podcast that— I mean, I literally was thinking about it

before COVID but as I was just getting ready to launch, it

hit. And my 3rd interview was with someone— was actually with David Farquhar from

IGS in Scotland during COVID And so I wasn't even

sure if he was going to be on, but it just was interesting how now

I've been having more of these conversations. We're in season 3 now. This

awareness that this access to food, access to local fresh food,

food, the concept of food deserts. And I think these are things that people took

for granted that, you know, can have their grocery store

or their mart down the street, but it's maybe out of sight, out

of mind. But we don't realize there are communities of people that

don't have access to fresh food that only get, you know, Here in the States,

it's the junk food chains. That's their closest source

of any sort of anything resembling nutrition. So I think people are waking up to

it. And I think it seems like everyone in this industry is poised and

they're at the right time. And all the work that you've been doing up until

now is, I would imagine, is starting to pay off. Yeah, definitely.

It's some of these conversations that I guess were happening before

have really been brought into the limelight. And yeah, these issues

that were underlying are now being,

yeah, being raised and people are talking about them. And yeah, as a technology,

it puts us, I guess, a way of changing the food

system or augmenting it. It puts us in a really exciting

place with, yeah, a lot of opportunity ahead of us.

So when did this come on your radar prior to Lettuce Grow? I know you've

got an engineering background. And so when did these technologies

sort of did you start to become aware of them? Yeah, I was made aware

of them through some local initiatives here, actually.

And for me, it was— I was getting involved in the sort of

food waste issue and looking at how much waste was

coming out of different, I guess, places locally, be that

supermarkets or restaurants or understanding

food waste in the home. And yeah, it was through

looking at the sort of inefficiencies in the food system that I started to

really get— become aware of, I guess, this

technology. I think like most people, often we find a way— it's through aquaponics.

It's often the first— it's often the first thing that people hear of. And

yeah, I think just, I guess, the beauty of that system in terms of

the symbiotic nature of the plants and the fish

opens a lot of people's eyes to the fact that, yeah, you can grow

plants in a different way, in a way that doesn't require soil.

So that was sort of, yeah, the first sort of times I

got involved in it. And that was whilst I was studying.

And so how do you think about the idea for

taking what you're seeing, what's happening? I imagine from an engineering

perspective, some of that has probably caught your eye and was interesting to you, but

then how do you make the leap and talk about those early conversations with your

co-founder, How you decide to get together and realize that this

might be a business? Yeah, so it was founded by

myself, Jack, and Ben. So Ben is

also engineering background, Jack's a plant biologist. So

yeah, it was those conversations between us. Jack was looking

into ways of, yeah, looking at how we can bring,

using hydroponics and bringing food to people's

plates or to people locally in a different sort of way.

Add in the sort of design thinking and systems thinking from myself and Ben. And

yeah, we actually launched through a sort of local

crowdfunder and campaign. Yeah. And sparked from there,

really. And did you know the market that you

wanted to go after in those early days? And who were you looking at other

companies-wide in terms of inspiration for what people were doing?

So very, very early days, we were looking at a whole range of markets,

if we're honest. We were looking at the whole system and, and where

we would have the greatest possible impact. And

yeah, we were looking at things all the way through from sort of small-scale hydroponic

growing at home through to, yeah, growing in

large-scale greenhouses and other technologies that could fit in

to help improve that system. So yeah, I guess

in short, probably no, we didn't. We didn't at that time.

My background is in sustainable systems

thinking and renewable energy and those sort of industries. And

just taking a look at the potential innovation in food was really exciting

for me because there was a whole raft of

areas and potential innovation that we could bring to the industry.

Which, yeah, at that time hadn't really been done

yet. And that for us, I think, is still a pretty wide

open plane of opportunities, I guess, in terms of the possibilities

of these sort of technologies. So for the benefit of the listener,

can you explain what Lettuce Grow's current offerings are and

the markets you're currently serving? Yeah, of course. So yeah,

Lettuce Grow, we're a technology company. So we provide

technologies into indoor farms, be they vertical or

greenhouses. And as part of that, the

sort of main technologies that we're developing are farm

management solutions and a unique aeroponic technology

that really maximizes farm output whilst minimizing the

environmental impacts to make growing as sustainable

as possible. So we've developed a unique aeroponic system

that Has no nozzles, which is a common issue with

high-pressure aeroponics. And yeah,

that's obviously been a core focus of what we do, but we've packaged all of

these technologies up into container farms. So we've got

the only available aeroponic container farms through our Drop and Grow

platform on the market at the moment. And how long

have you had Drop and Grow, the line there? When did that start?

Yes, we launched Drop and Grow last year. It actually

was— it wasn't born out of the pandemic, but it was

an opportunity to accelerate that through to market, to really

simplify the journey of people getting involved in

vertical farming, to make it as easy as possible to become a grower.

How much education was involved in terms of the markets you were

going into? When people see this technology, Are they

familiar? You know, because I know Freight Farms does this in the States, and so

it may be something that they've seen on the periphery. And then when they start

digging in and looking at your offering at Drop

and Grow, how much education do you have to provide them and how much hands-on

support? Because I would imagine, especially if it's someone who's a first-time vertical

farmer, right? Yeah, it really depends on obviously who they

are. We work with a range of people all

the way from people that are experienced in vertical farming, running their own

farms, have been for multiple years, and we're providing technology and

support to them, all the way through to first-time farmers, like

you say, or traditional farms as well, who are going from the

soil and traditional practices and, yeah, learning a new way of doing

things. And I guess, yeah, we've worked with

people, I guess, farmers, dairy farmers before, and And

it's a big change in terms of

the type of work. And often it's met with

positivity because you're not having to worry about the weather, you're not having to worry

about the time that you're getting up as much

because obviously you can control that time of day.

But a big part of what we do is through our

Astara platform, which is the software and the brains that control

Drop and Grow and control and automate our other

offerings. And that's about making the journey as easy as

possible for first-time growers, preloading

all the automation and the settings that they need, and guiding

them through the daily processes if they're using Drop and

Grow and the task management and those type of things. So

we're really Trying to make the technology and our products as accessible

as possible. And the software is homegrown?

Yeah, it's all developed in-house. We— it

works for our systems, but we're also able to control

third-party systems as well. So it's not unique to us

in terms of how we can use it and integrate with other systems, but built

in-house. And do you see a difference in the learning curves from people that have

had experience in traditional agriculture Or is

there a steeper learning curve because they have to break old habits? I'm wondering what

you've noticed. Yeah, I think it does depend on the

individual in many ways, but ultimately,

yeah, the sort of processes and

from what we provide, I guess a lot of the processes

are not exceptionally complex once you've got all of the

kit and all of the learnings that we're supporting people with. So

We're there to guide them through the first sort of growing

cycles. And we do that on site with people. We, yeah, we send

experts from our team, our growers to go and help people get up to speed.

So we're really there sort of helping them in those first cycles. And

then once they got that, we, yeah, we're there on the end of the phone

as needed to help them through it. But we let them carve their

own path at that point. And where do you see the opportunities

for growth with that sector? Yeah, I think it's—

the opportunities are really based on how flexible

containers are for as a platform for growing. And

we don't yet know, I don't think, how that's going to

develop long term. I think in the same way that

traditional agriculture has a range of growers from the very, very

large-scale industrialized down to small sort of

market gardeners at the other end of the scale. The

ability for container farming platforms to fill

some of those more flexible areas within that supply

chain is really, really interesting. So there's a, yeah, there's a whole

raft of ways that can go. I think the other point is

obviously really interesting is how robust a structure

they can be. So yeah, they, as we've seen already, there's

companies that have taken them down to the deepest, coldest

regions of the planet, and others that are operating

them in, yeah, some of the harshest climates at the other end of

the scale in terms of temperature. So there's, yeah, I think

what it comes down to is the flexibility of that as a platform. But you

also have to acknowledge that it's limited in terms of the,

I guess, the operational scale. And that's why we're also focusing

on much larger automated systems using the same

aeroponic technology, providing the same yield uplifts that

we've been able to show compared to hydroponics, but at a much larger

scale as well. So we are acknowledging that, yeah,

container farming is part of the mix. Are you tracking and

measuring that difference that you just mentioned? And are you talking

publicly about like that difference in that you see over hydroponics?

Yeah, so it's, as you'll be aware from, I guess, the other,

everyone you've spoken to through this podcast, like data

sharing and benchmarking and that side of the business is,

of the industry is in its, let's say it's in its infancy.

And we're working with other players,

other partners to really try and break

that down. I think ultimately, as a technology provider,

we're keen to share and talk about the benefits of our systems,

um, so that other growers can share in that. But

understandably, the sort of technology

cross-grower companies that, I guess,

yeah, there's quite a few of them that are in the world, they can be

much more protective over that sort of data. So

we're at a point that, yeah, we talk pretty openly about those

things. And obviously, the more

that we do, the more we work with our academic partners

to validate those sort of— the performance that we're seeing, the

more we'll be talking about it. And we take a very open approach to working

with academia. We take an open approach to trying to push

the boundaries of the industry and move things forward for everyone.

You're also working on systems or an approach to

connect greenhouses with vertical farms. Can you talk a little bit about that as

well? Yeah, of course. So we obviously—

vertical farming is the main focus of, I guess,

your work here, but we do see a really

important connection, acknowledgement of the value of

high-tech greenhouses alongside vertical farms. And This

then becomes, again, a geographical question,

I guess, a local market conditions question for which is the most

appropriate technology for the most— for the crop you're growing in the market

you're growing it in, the geography and the climate you're growing in as well.

And yeah, again, it's an open playing

field for how these 2 technologies are going to grow together.

And they For us, it's about finding

where the greatest value is for vertical farms, where the greatest value is for

greenhouse farms, but fundamentally providing core

technologies for both that can increase yields of your crops,

increase output of your facility, and increase the efficiency of how you're

doing things, whether that's on the software side or the using aeroponic technology.

And are you seeing possibilities where there could be a

a hybrid approach that might make sense if people are using the

best of both technologies given where they're, they're geographically

located? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the hybrid approaches—

there's already multi-tier greenhouses, uh, in

terms of, yeah, whether it's growing things like strawberries, or

there's greenhouses where you've got a lit lower tier and

you benefit from the natural light with the upper tier. The hybridization is,

yeah, is key to it. And that's really why the same aeroponic

platform that we developed, you can use in both a greenhouse and a

vertical farm. So it's not unique to one of them. And

I think that, yeah, in the same way that

lots, you're seeing this transition to more, let's say, traditional

greenhouse growers, their, a lot of their interest in vertical farms

is around how you can really improve, speed up, improve the output, the

quality, the nutrition of the early stage of

growth, and then bring crops out into the natural light and

benefit from the free sunlight that we're blessed with. So yeah,

it's about understanding the benefits of each system and where

each is most appropriate. And does this lend itself well to

the design and build work that you're now doing and that you alluded to earlier,

where you're really looking at opportunities for custom

installations at a much larger scale? Yeah, absolutely.

So we— it's the same sort of

area of work that we're working on. Um, we

are building a network of technology partners and people

that are already active in, let's say, the large-scale

hydroponic space, and showing them the benefits of

integrating aeroponics into those large-scale systems. So

Yeah, there's— and that's saying that, again, we take an open approach to how

we do these things. We know where our strengths lie.

We know that people have already developed large-scale automation

systems. We don't need to reinvent the wheel there.

So we're looking to bring the benefits of our aeroponic technology into, into that

space. For the benefit of the listener, always

looking for opportunities to educate folks because there's people that listen that are learning and

new to vertical farming. So when you describe or tell

people about the benefits that are— people that are used to just hearing

hydroponics may be new to the concept of

aeroponics. And so how do you describe that from a benefits perspective?

Yeah, of course. Um, it's one of those that when you're working day in, day

out— yeah, so aeroponics, for those that are

new to it, instead of in the various hydroponic methods where

often your roots are in a growing media or

submerged in a nutrient solution. In aeroponics, the nutrient

solution is turned into a gas, an

aerosol phase, a mist, and that's applied to the roots as a very

fine spray. The big benefit of that

from the plant's perspective is that it's experiencing something which is much

more like soil than hydroponics because you

can you've got a much greater access for the

roots to oxygen, to carbon dioxide, to be able to

respire much more efficiently in that environment than

they might in, say, a flood and drain system,

a sort of deep or shallow water culture system where the roots are

not generally in the environment they're used to. They're submerged in the

water. They adapt to that, as plants do. But with aeroponics, you've

effectively got this additional lever that you can pull in

terms of how much of a solution you apply to the roots

and how you control that. So it means that you can,

yeah, encourage the plant to, to grow faster and

grow with less, um, diseases because you can keep

the, the growing media much drier if you have a growing media.

And yeah, there's a lot of other sort of advances that you

can make in terms of of health or stressing the plant in different ways

that you can't necessarily do with a hydroponic system.

Are you seeing an interest in folks that are in

hydroponics inquiring more about the aeroponic technology?

Yeah, for sure. I think part of that is driven by,

I guess, some of the, the problems that farmers

are seeing, whether that's they might have Yeah,

certain— sometimes you get an algal issue or something

like that, and you have a very wet growing media, and

you're wondering, how can we reduce this? And aeroponics is one way

that you can reduce that because you're just applying the moisture to the roots.

Or you've got growers that are, yeah, looking to push the

yields up, and that's where, yeah, looking at aeroponics as a

way to do that is a really, a really good step to, to see if

you can get more out of your current facility. And that's,

I guess, coming back to the sort of greenhouse side of things.

That's, that's the work that we've been doing in vertical farms and now

taking that aeroponic method to greenhouses. And

yeah, looking at the impacts throughout the season of those, those

improvements that we've seen in vertical farming. Yeah, I think

it— I had just assumed that there was benefits, but I think the way you've

described it, how It mimics better the

conditions of what the plant experiences in soil, I think is a

great way to put it. And something that may be obvious to people, but the

fact that you mentioned that they're in a medium when they're in hydroponics that they're

not used to because historically most of these plants have

been grown in soil. So I think that was an important distinction. Are there

a lot of advancements being made in aeroponics

itself in terms of the technology or ways to actually deliver it?

It's still, I guess, compared to the use,

the widespread use of hydroponics, there's less being done in

aeroponics. And I think that fundamentally comes down to the

difficulties of setting up high-pressure aeroponic systems, which is

the norm. So yeah, it's not the most

accessible technology. It's not the easiest technology to scale

up if you're building a high-pressure system. Whereas

our aeroponics at Lettuce Grow is pretty much as simple

from a, I guess, building the farm

perspective as a hydroponic setup because of the

unique way that we do things aeroponically. So we've made that much

more accessible. And again, that's something that we're hoping will help push the

boundaries of what's possible and encourage more people to be

using aeroponics. And yeah. pushing it as a technology.

And what changes since you started have you seen in terms of

the types of crops that you can actually grow indoors?

Yeah, so I guess as many people started with sort of leafy

greens, microgreens, those type of crops.

Over the years, we've, yeah, grown things like

strawberries, tomatoes. We're doing a fair bit of work at the

moment Things like carrots, which when we talk

about crops that are used to being in soil and then

suddenly they're growing in thin air, it's a bit of a— yeah, they will behave

differently. Are they special seed varieties to grow

shorter? Are they baby carrots? Yeah, we experimented with the baby carrots.

We haven't grown any sort of, any of those meter-long

carrots that you see people growing yet. But,

um, it's about, yeah, showing the possibilities of

what's, yeah, what's possible in technology. And yeah, potatoes and seed

potatoes are one of the best-known crops in terms of their

usage in aeroponics on a sort of global scale. How large are they?

So I guess the tubers for seed potatoes are, yeah, much

smaller, I guess, in about a couple of centimeters across.

Okay, an inch at their most. depends on the variety. But

yeah, it's a really interesting use case of aeroponics where you can

provide— obviously within potatoes, soil-borne

diseases are a real issue, and if you've got disease in your seed,

then obviously that can proliferate through a whole crop.

So aeroponics provides a way of providing clean,

disease-free seeds, and it's the same—

well, the beauty of growing an aeroponically is you can, you can pick them like

a fruit, which is just a bit, yeah, a bit mind-blowing. You

don't have to kill the plant up top. But the other,

the same principle within that of providing clean,

disease-free rootstock or seeds, uh, in

the potato case, is what we're taking and

applying to other crops as well. So we're working at the moment with

things like fruit trees. We've worked in other trees for forestry

in the past that, yeah, using aeroponics

as a way of helping to clone and propagate

crops that may then be planted out into, into soil.

So you're germinating and starting the seedlings indoors?

Yeah, whether that's from seed or mainly propagating from, from cuttings.

The potato challenge is interesting because of the weight of them as well.

And naturally, they're normally grown in the ground, and so I would imagine

there's a different engineering challenge just as they

grow indoors as well. Yeah, it's a different, a

different, I guess, volume of space and a different,

yeah, architecture for the plants. But that's part of

the, part of the thing with aeroponics is, in the same way that you've got

different hydroponic systems, different types of hydroponics, for different

types of crops that are best suited, that it's the

same with aquaponics, that you can vary that. And are you seeing

other opportunities for, to test out new varieties or new crops?

Yeah, absolutely. All the time we've got either inquiries coming in

or part of our internal research streams to be, yeah, looking at new crops.

I think it's one of the, I don't want to call it a problem, but

the, the, I guess, double-edged sword,

let's call it that. of the vertical farming and the

nascency of the industry is that there's so much opportunity.

There's so— there's infinite possibilities of crops and

varieties that can be grown. There's a need to

obviously work through those incrementally. And yeah, that's obviously a

focus challenge for companies like ourselves in terms of making sure that,

yeah, we're focusing on the right crops at the right time and then moving on

to new exciting ones. You had a recent blog post or

post on the site about the energy grids, and it's something

you wrote about. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about

what was the impetus for that topic and what you were covering there.

Yeah, so I guess my background is renewable energy, and

then I imagine that probably came— comes through in

the blog that I wrote on this. And for me,

there's a big disconnect between our

food systems and our energy systems,

be that electrical energy or

energy that goes into transporting produce around the

world and the actual food item. There's quite a big disconnect between

the efforts and the overall energy that goes

into producing that and the end product. And I think

that's something that if we're addressing

the big problems that we need to in climate and environmental issues,

then we need to start looking at food and energy in a more

joined-up way. And that's really the basis for this piece

that I wrote recently and explores this in a

bit more detail. And what were some of the takeaways from that post?

Yeah, so I guess looking at how we can join up thinking a

bit more. And we work with a renewable energy

company called Optimus Energy. here in the UK. And

when you think about the vertical farming picture and the renewable energy piece,

for me, there's no point building a vertical farm unless you're using renewable energy. I'll

state that clearly. It's not a good use of

anyone's time if

you're— or in terms of the, I guess,

the fundamental sustainability of it. If you're not using renewable energy, then we're burning coal

to power lights to grow plants. That's not what we're doing. Which makes

no sense. Yeah, exactly. And that's a piece that, yeah,

needs to be talked about more in the industry. I know

Henry Agriculture, who, yeah, I'm sure you've

spoken to. Yeah, he's been on. Yeah. He, yeah, he talks about

this a fair bit, and we need to look at the holistic

sustainability behind vertical farming, and we need to talk about these things openly. So

yeah, and I feel like it's a— I don't know if it's a dirty little

secret or a dirty big secret, or, you

know, that, and then the conversation around on the plastics

as well. So I think those are 2 topics that keep coming up. And, and

I think to your point, the more people that are talking about them out in

the open, I think is, is healthy for the industry. It definitely is. And it

comes back to the, the point we talked about earlier with data and transparency

and, yeah, a way of comparing and benchmarking different

technologies which will develop. And as the

industry matures, like, we've got to acknowledge that this industry's grown very,

very quickly and a very short space of time. And there's a huge amount

going on, a huge amount of innovation, a huge amount of exciting things going on

all around the world. And yeah, that sort of

consolidation of ideas and frameworks and benchmarks will

come. And there's work going on, there's collaborations going on

to encourage that and to foster that. But I guess,

yeah, we're going down an avenue from where we

started with We're thinking about food and energy, but

sort of taking it back to that, the,

I guess, benefits of this joined-up thinking, whether it's within the industry or

with the energy industry, huge, substantial, like really

massive. Like as we get more renewables onto the grid,

more wind, which as you mentioned earlier, the

US is, is now leaning into hopefully quite a lot. Like

the more wind on the grid, the cheaper our electricity,

especially at nighttime when it's much windier. And you can

turn your vertical farms on at night using cheap renewables.

And that completely flips both the

sustainability piece, obviously, if you're burning

fossil fuels to power you, and it flips your economics as well into

such a more positive place. It makes—

Makes sense. It's the movement of renewables and vertical farm

together, which is what makes it a sustainable technology.

Where do you see the opportunities for innovation in this

space, or what has you the most hopeful? I think

there's a huge room for innovation still in

the business models that will allow

widespread adoption of vertical farms. I think

it's holding the industry back in some ways. There's some exciting things

going on in terms of reducing the sort of the

barriers to entry, be they capital, often capital,

that, yeah, there's a lot of innovation there, a lot of financial innovation,

I guess, policy innovation that is currently lagging behind the

technical innovations. The technologies are now here.

We've got them here very quickly, but the

adoption is currently not moving as fast as

it could do because there's other barriers to entry. And

that can be things as much as planning laws and

acknowledgement of, yeah, the technology and how that fits into

local planning laws, things like that. And things like

certification and the sort of

organics debate as well, which is less of a debate in the US, but much

more one here. where, yeah,

produce certification, produce branding that can tell the

sustainability story of the industry can really unlock,

yeah, a lot more, I guess, widespread knowledge. And

that in turn, from the consumer angle, can help drive the growth of the

industry. So yeah, I'm not saying there's not technological innovation to

do. There's the— yeah, a lot in terms of

automation and Useful machine

vision instead of machine vision for the sake of it, and

useful sensing that is appropriate

to the facilities that you're in and appropriate to the

insights that they're able to derive. But I think most of the

innovation that really excites me is what— well, most of the potential for innovation

is within the broader aspects of the industry in terms of

the things that are limiting the growth, because technology is not limiting the growth at

the moment. That's a good point. Yeah. Do you see

information sharing with colleagues, with others in industry, just in the

time that you've been running Lettuce Grow? And are there

opportunities for improvement there? Yeah, I think there are.

There's a level of reluctance to share

information still. There's I'm not saying

that's completely understandable, it's not. That's true. There's

a good amount of competition in the industry, which drives

certain things to be kept secret and not to be shared. But

we need to find the frameworks and the pre-competitive

spaces where things that benefit the whole industry can be talked about

and shared. Because the opportunity is so large in

terms of our food systems and the size of the

various fresh produce markets globally, I think there's room for those

pre-competitive spaces. So yeah, it's something that

I'm— I guess I'm involved in the UK, in

UK UAT, which is the UK urban agtech

group, which is— I wouldn't say predominantly, but has a lot of vertical farming

companies within that. So I'm on the I'm one of the founding

members on the advisory board there, and we're trying to generate these

spaces where people can collaborate in a less competitive space.

So there's, yeah, there's room for that locally, and there's room for that on a

global scale as well. Is there anything happening in the space that

would be akin to what we saw in the tech space with

like open source or Linux varieties of things of

that nature? Yeah, I think where that— there are

some open source movements in terms of software, in

terms of the hardware. I guess

it's a bit less easy than with something

like Linux and a software platform due to the—

got to acknowledge the infrastructural elements of vertical farming, indoor

farming. So I think, yeah, one of the

interesting ones a bit further down the track will be around

seeds and varieties and how the

traditional models in seed varieties might be disrupted by

the advent of more vertical farms or more indoor farms.

And I think that's going to be interesting to watch how that plays

out. And there are various companies, of course, developing, um,

yeah, developing specific seeds and specific varieties for

vertical farms. So it'll be interesting how those become

commercialized and how open that is. What

are the things that you're thinking about at Lettuce Grow, given

where you've come to in this point of the company's journey

and the future and where you see possibilities for growth and the things that have

you excited on a company level? So we're, I mean, we're really excited about

the, the opportunities in large-scale horticulture and, and

yeah, the large-scale aeroponic systems. As well as

the opportunities within, let's call it, digital horticulture, the

opportunities for providing smart systems,

smart insights through our Astarra platform, whether that's in

vertical farms, in greenhouses, in advanced polytunnels even, and

the ability to share information between these different

levels of controlled environment. Because that's really

like we've seen some of the recent

large investments into greenhouses. And I think you can't deny that that's linked to

the growth of the vertical farming industry. Sure. And the trickle—

both the learnings from those that have been growing

greenhouses for a very long time and the trickle-down

technologies that can come from vertical farming into that space are

really, really exciting. And the trends that we're seeing for

more control, whether that's plastic greenhouses upgrading to

glass, like, that's someone transitioning

from growing uncovered traditional

soil and covering certain areas of their crop.

This general trend to, I guess, limit the impact of

inclement weather on farming is going to keep growing. That's,

that's not going away. And at the top end of that

is your is your fully automated, highly controlled

vertical farm. But there's a whole host of

opportunities all the way down that spectrum of controlled

environment where digital solutions, be they

smart sensor platforms that provide unique insights,

or their learnings that have come from a vertical farm that you can then apply

in terms of your process to a lower-tech environment,

That for me is super exciting, how all of these interplay. And that's

really why we aren't pigeonholed as a vertical farming company.

We're looking to add value across the horticultural supply chain with technology.

It probably would've made sense for me to name the show the Controlled Environment

Agriculture Podcast, but it doesn't sound as sexy as

vertical farming. It doesn't. And I think that term has

grown in popularity since we launched. podcast. It's

become more widespread, whereas, yeah,

I guess it's one of those, as I said, the technology is moving so quickly,

but even the language isn't moving as quickly as

maybe the technology. So, yeah, it's definitely

not as sexy a phrase. It doesn't roll off the tongue as

well, does it? I was speaking to Jon Purcell of Unfold,

and he mentioned that he was he told his, you know, his daughter's like,

you know, he knows that he's in vertical farming now. And then she said something

along the lines of like, oh, you're cool, or you're doing something cool now,

just because of the term, you know, of the industry that he's in now. So

yeah, I mean, it's— I guess the word zeitgeist does

come to mind, but that's because the industry that we're working in

is touching on so many current themes, like back to where we started

the conversation with COVID and food supply chains and the disruption we've seen

there, through to water shortages and

biodiversity impacts of farming. We're really

operating in a space that impacts a lot of themes that are in the public

consciousness at the moment. So putting on your now

management hat, if you think about where

the challenges are that you have as a leader, and is there anything

that's different in terms of how you think about running a company like

this based on conceptions you had when you first got started and what you've

learned now since then? I think from where we first

started to where I am now, a lot has changed.

I've learned a lot quickly, and there's still a lot

to learn. I think the last year has obviously thrown up

its own unexpected unique challenges, and

that importance of place of community,

be that our research centers, our labs, our workshops, our

offices, is something that, yeah, when you're holed up

in your bedroom or your home office, then,

yeah, you're further away from that. And as a leader, I think that really needs

to be front and center, the impact of that. So,

yeah, it's something that we've worked through as a business, the challenges of

distance, But there's a huge amount of excitement

within our team that are— obviously, we've had people in

who've needed to throughout the pandemic, but there's a huge amount of excitement and recognition

across our teams of the benefits of being in the

same place, tackling these problems head-on together, and collaborating and innovating

together. Yeah, this theme of community has

been top of mind for a lot of folks recently, I think. because of the

absence of it over the past year. So what does that word mean to you?

That's a really good question. Community,

I think it's that sense of— I'm trying to answer it without saying the word

communal, but that sense of collective belonging and

collective connection, I guess. That

connection with people and what that brings and

enriches your life with that's way beyond just the life that you

lead when you're digitally connected. You can have obviously good digital

communities, and we're speaking across the world right now,

but there's something missing from a human perspective

that you don't get when you're talking through a screen compared to when

you're in an active community and

you've got diversity of thought, diversity of

backgrounds. Yeah, diversity of, I guess,

approaches and all of those things, which together

forms, I guess, that feeling of community.

Yeah, that's important. What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself

recently? I think the tough questions that we are

asking and thinking about are those that we touched on

earlier with regards to holistic sustainability and

environment and and those things. But I'm, I'm

confident that we've got the right answers for those. And as a business,

we're operating entirely on renewable energy.

We refer all of our customers through to renewable energy

suppliers. And yeah, I think that people

are asking the questions about energy usage. And that is,

it is a question that, as I said earlier, needs to be talked about openly.

So, it's one of them. I think there's, yeah, on a more personal

note, I guess, yeah, questions around how we

safely return to the office and encourage that community and

make that, yeah, the positive melting pot

of everything that was in place before COVID

and bring people back safely. And then, yeah, like, obviously it's for us,

for me as a business As owner and co-founder of the company,

it's something that I care deeply about, making sure that we can

operate in a safe way, but in a way that encourages all of this

collaboration and innovation and those ideas. Are you looking

forward to getting back to conferences? I am, yeah. I think

there's— I've attended various online ones. It's not the

same. No one's nailed that, I thought.

At one point I was on one and someone had, but then there

was the sort of chat roulette. Yes.

Yeah, that's true. Which, yeah, it's not quite the

same. But yeah, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to

reconnecting with people that I haven't seen in a long time and

working on those sort of collaborations and those

conversations that if you're honest, do sometimes only spark

at these events, and you can generate them in a

digital world, but it, yeah, there's sometimes

at an event, having a few beers

afterwards and catching up with someone you haven't for a long time, and yeah, that

can lead to really exciting things. So yeah, looking forward

to that. I've definitely been, there's a few events in the US that

I was hoping to come to either last year or this year, which

unfortunately not possible. But yeah, looking forward to those and

some of those in Holland as well. Yeah, I think as we start to make

our way out of this, everyone's looking forward to that human connection

that we didn't realize we needed until we went a year plus

without it. Sort of circles back to that idea of bringing community

on a smaller scale, but then also the industry itself. I think there's some value

in getting those meeting of the minds happening at least once or twice a year.

So I think that's going to be a good thing for everyone. Yeah, definitely

looking forward to it a lot. And yeah, looking forward to,

I guess, people within our team getting out to those events that,

yeah, that might not have done before. And we're, as a business, we're now

much more open. We're able to open, luckily, here in the UK to,

to more visitors. And then it's been really, really great bringing people

back onto the site over the last few months. And it's that same feeling that

we'll get at these sort of events. So yeah, it's exciting

to be able to bring people in and show them what we've been working on

over the last few years. Well, Charlie, I'm glad we got the chance to connect.

We initially connected a while ago, and then we had a couple of email exchanges

back and forth, and we were able to restart that conversation and now have you

on the show. So, you know, looking forward to continued success.

with Lettuce Grow, and I appreciate you sharing the story of

the company and of yourself with the audience. No, thank you. Yeah, I'm

glad we managed to arrange it, Harry,

after a bit of a break. But yeah, it's been a pleasure, and yeah, I

really encourage anyone listening, if they're interested in finding out more,

to contact us or come through you,

whatever's easiest. Best place for folks to connect with you? Yeah, best

place would be our website,

www.letusgrow.com. And yeah, that is by

far the best place. Or I guess personally, yeah, on

LinkedIn, likewise. Okay, we'll make sure we have all those links in

the show notes as well. Thanks again for your time, Charlie. Brilliant. Thanks, Harry. Have

a good rest of the day. Thanks again to Charlie for coming on the show

and sharing his story. Full show notes available at

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. Thanks to our season 3 title sponsor,

Cultivated. If you're looking for a vertical farm and don't know where to start, or

which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today. Best of all,

their service is free because they work on behalf of their partners. Learn

more at cultivated.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com.

Just leave out that last E. Also, don't forget to learn more and take advantage

of early bird registration for Indoor AgCon.

You can save an additional $100 off with our promo code VFPOD2021.

And that's at indoor.ag. And all the details will be in the show notes

as well. Podcast production marketing provided by Fullcast. Sign up for a free

podcast brainstorm at fullcast.co/vfp15.

And as a reminder, if you're enjoying this show, please leave us a rating and

a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp,

and we'll be sure to read those out on future episodes. Tune in next

episode for my long-awaited and anticipated interview with Hiroki

Koga. CEO of Oishi Berry, definitely making a splash in the

world of vertical farming with their premium omakase strawberries.

Looking forward to that one. Until we meet again, here's to your health.

Thanks for listening. To read the full show notes for this episode, which

includes any links mentioned in the episode, as well as a full show

transcription, visit verticalfarmingpodcast.com.

There you can sign up for our email list to be notified when new

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