Belonging to the Brand, with Mark Schaefer

Welcome to amplify the personal brand entrepreneur show. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Mark Schaefer.

When people become friends in the community, it adds this layer of emotional switching costs to your brand and your company. And all that goodwill, all that love and good feeling that happens in the community extends to your brand great. Brand marketing is about creating an emotion between you and your customers or your audience or your fans and what better way to do that than community? But it does take a different way of thinking about leadership.

[: 00:00:48

Hi there and welcome back to the Personal Brand Business Show. My name is Bob Gentle and every week I speak with incredible people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, then while you still have your device in your hand, then hit the subscribe button. That way you won't miss a single episode. And if you are a regular listener, then consider sharing it with just one person because it's the very best way that you can help the show grow and help me reach more people. And if you're watching on YouTube, YouTube is new. Hi YouTube. Then take a moment to subscribe while you're here. So this week I am very excited. We are kicking off the year with Mark Schaefer. Mark should not need any introduction. His books, Known the Content Code, Cumulative Advantage and Marketing Rebellion should have a home on any self respecting business owner's bookshelf. And back in March I watched Mark's talk at Social Media Marketing World and I had a clue as to what was coming in Mark's new book, which I've recently started, I'm really enjoying. And today we're speaking, among other things, about Mark's new book belonging to the Brand.

[: 00:01:54

Mark, welcome to the show.

[: 00:01:56

Bob, it's so good to hear you. You've got the best podcast voice in the world. It's like a blanket on a cold day.

[: 00:02:08

Yeah, it's funny, I think I mentioned this before. I'm not a young chap anymore and well, I probably am its relative, I guess. But until I was 40, no one had ever mentioned my voice until I started podcasting. It was the weirdest thing that realised you have an asset. I'm still not accustomed to it, so thanks for that. So the new book, Belonging to the Brand is so cool. And it's so cool for so many reasons. I have a list of all the reasons your book is cool, Mark, but I would just be sucking up.

[: 00:02:43

Oh, go ahead. Oh go ahead.

[: 00:02:47

But what was the trigger for you to look at this concept of belonging? Because it's it's so out to the left field from where most people are going at the moment with with marketing books. What was the trigger for you?

[: 00:03:01

The trigger was in 2018, I was working on a book called Marketing Rebellion and that book was a wake up call to show that marketing, as traditionally we have thought about it really wasn't working anymore. The interruptions, the spamming, all these things that people are running away from. And now here we are in a streaming economy and people expect something different from our marketing and from our businesses. And there was a chapter in that book about belonging. And when I finished the book and published it in 2019, I thought that is the most important chapter in the book. That is really the future of marketing. As all these other things fade away. I really believe, Bob, 20 or 30 years from now, we're going to look back at this era of interrupting people and spamming people and bothering people and calling that marketing. We're going to look back and say, what was that all about? What were we thinking to do that? Because marketing really has to be coming alongside people at their point of need, not manipulating them. Now, one year after that book came out, all these ideas, or many of the ideas I had in the book started to come true during the pandemic.

[: 00:04:34

Because in the pandemic, all this advertising didn't work anymore. Companies didn't know what to do. They didn't know what to say. How do you sell stuff in a pandemic? And what they had to do, many companies, they rolled up their sleeves and they started to actually do something. They started to actually connect with communities. Research shows during the pandemic, 85% of the of adults said their number one source of social connection during the pandemic was an online community. Now, communities are nothing new, but when it comes to a brand community, creating a community for a company, they largely have been failures. About 70% of brand communities fail. And the reason is because they're designed to sell something and people don't want to be sold to. They're sick of it. They're going to run away from that. Of the communities that have survived, about 70% of those are dedicated toward customer self service. Oh, you've got a problem with our software? Go into our community and people will help you there, that's great. But if you think about the number of businesses that don't have communities and the communities that have failed, and that even those that have community, they're not really focused on emotion.

[: 00:06:06

They're not focused on helping people belong in this emotional way. They're missing the benefits of collaboration, co creation, advocacy, getting first party information, the speed of information, the trustworthiness of information that happens in a community. It is profound. When I dug into the research, the brand benefits that can happen in a community are absolutely overwhelming. And that's why I think this is the greatest, most overlooked opportunity in the history of marketing opportunities. And it's the only kind of marketing that people want. They're going to embrace it. They need it. They need it for their psychological wellbeing. And this is a period in history where psychological wellbeing is really an issue all over our culture.

[: 00:07:03

I think what's really interesting is, number one, building community around an organisation of any kind, or around a product or around a brand, it's a lot like if you want to make wine, it's not just a case of getting a big jug, throwing in some grapes and waiting. There is a process. And that process is well known, it's documented, it works, you have to follow the process. You can't make it up every time. So, number one, that needs people who really understand that process and it needs leadership who respect that process. But more importantly, any community needs community leadership. And if your brand is that community, if you would like or you aspire to your brand being that community, then it requires the people who are in leadership roles in that organisation to take leadership roles in that community visibly. And I find a lot of organisations, executives, leadership teams that are accustomed to being quite anonymous, to working in little silos where they don't have to become uncomfortable. And what that asks of us is really a different kind of leadership and organisations. So that's on the one hand, one thing that I see going on, on the other hand, and this was something, this was a real slap in the face in a nice way when I was listening to your talk.

[: 00:08:27

And it might not be what you intended, but in a world where we have increasing virtualization, we have the metaverse, where many of us may only experience each other with an avatar, the thing that will make the difference is the personal brand.

[: 00:08:40

Yeah, well, you and I'm, the only thing that's going to say it is right now.

[: 00:08:47

So for me, those two things were very interesting because they do lead not only to brand new opportunities, but to brand new challenges, which in many respects aren't marketing challenges, they're almost personal development challenges for a lot of people, which I just thought was really interesting.

[: 00:09:05

Well, it's such a fascinating point because, and this is something that I address very directly in the book, I think is one of the major value propositions of the book, is that leadership and marketing direction in a community, it's upside down from what we're accustomed to. Management, traditional marketing. Management is very much about command and control and being precise about the messaging. And in community, it's about giving up control, it's about letting other people take the lead, it's about being humble, it's about marketing. Leadership in a community isn't about selling stuff, it isn't about promoting your brand, necessarily. It's about creating a culture of safety, it's about rewarding status in the community. It's about really enabling and nurturing connections, not just with you and your brand, but other members of the community. I think this is one of the most fascinating and powerful pieces of research that's featured in the book, that when people become friends in the community, it adds this layer of emotional switching costs to your brand and your company. And all that goodwill, all that love and good feeling that happens in the community extends to your brand. Great brand marketing is about creating an emotion between you and your customers or your audience or your fans and what better way to do that than community?

[: 00:10:51

But it does take a different way of thinking about leadership listening to this.

[: 00:10:57

And I think extrapolating out in a practical sense for the listener. There are probably two obvious places we should go. So let's say a small brand, a personal brand, a small business owner on the one hand and on the other hand we have the corporation. They have two different challenges but they also have two different resource banks available to them. So if we can maybe look at this in the sense of the small business owner first, how should they approach a community strategy if you like. And I reluctantly use the word strategy because you know what I mean. But if they decide okay, I want to embrace community but they don't have one, how should you go about beginning that journey from a values perspective and a practical perspective?

[: 00:11:43

Well, I'm not afraid of using the word strategy. I think strategy implies that there's structure and a vision and a plan and I think that's a very good idea going into a community. This is different from other kinds of marketing in another significant way. Most marketing is ephemeral. We tweet something, we have a podcast and we decide not to do it anymore. We have a campaign and the money runs out. So we stop it and then we start something else. Maybe you see the ad, maybe you don't. A community is a social contract. When people join a community they expect that you're going to be there for a long time. There's a sense of permanence. There's a sense that this is a promise. So I don't think you should do that really. You need to think it through. And I think there does have to be some strategy behind it and you're not going to be perfect and you're not going to be right. But I think it does require some research. You need to talk to your customers. You need to get certainly buy in from the company leadership. And I think it starts with this.

[: 00:13:07

It really starts with what is going to be the purpose behind the community. And the ideal is some purpose of your company that intersects the purpose and passions of your customers in a meaningful and significant way. And I'll provide two famous examples. One would be Patagonia. Patagonia is completely built on sustainable recreation and caring for the earth and environmentalism and that intersects with the beliefs of their customers, the purpose of their customers in a very powerful way. So they have a community that's ready to be behind them and share ideas about sustainability and manufacturing and distribution and marketing that will make the earth, a better and more healthy place. I have a friend who told me I will only buy clothes from Patagonia at a much higher price, I might add, because he's part of their community and he shares that purpose. Another famous example. There's a famous American motorcycle brand, Harley Davidson. Their purpose is it's not to sell more motorcycles. I mean, they have to make a profit to exist. But their purpose up and down the company is one thing. We want to make our customers dreams come true through the motorcycle lifestyle, which is just a nice way of saying we want you to be a bad ass in black leather, right?

[: 00:14:57

If that is your dream, we're going to help you do that. In every single thing they do now here in America, the automotive companies, they're on TV doing ads all the time. We're having a sale. It's a President's Day sale. Come down now. And it's just so annoying and so interruptive and frankly, just so old fashioned that you can't believe anybody would do that anymore. Harley Davidson never does that. They're selling transportation, but they have a community who loves them because they're not being sold something. This is a company that's helping make their dreams come true. That's a big difference, isn't it? It's the intersection of purpose. So in my community, the purpose behind my community is learning about the future of marketing. It's about relevance. It's about not being left behind. We're learning about web three and NFTs and metaverse and Chat GPT and all these things that can be an existential threat or an exciting opportunity. And we're experimenting. And that's something that I love, that I'm immersed in that world. I love thinking about what's next. And that's why the intersection of my purpose intersects so well with this community and why the community is thriving.

[: 00:16:27

What's interesting, listening to that is mission is inherent in every example. It's there for Patagonia, it's there for Harley Davidson, it's there for you. What this really begs, the question is, if you want to leverage community as a strategy, you better do the work and understand your mission. And if your mission is to simply separate your customers from their money, expect to be struggling in the middle of the 21st century. It's not going to be enough anymore.

[: 00:17:00

This is a great point, Bob, and this is another way where community diverges from traditional marketing thinking. So let's say traditional marketing thinking, let's say you're a small business owner and you own a store that you're a butcher and you have the greatest selection of deli meats in your city. That is absolutely a great point of differentiation. That is not a reason for people to gather. So your marketing point of differentiation, that's important. We have the freshest meat or we have the biggest cuts of meat or whatever, but that might be something that appeals to people that come into your store. But if people are going to gather in a community. They want to learn how to maybe how to cook it. They want to learn new recipes. So there is an intersection, but your point of differentiation is important, but it might not be a reason to gather. Yeah, I think by spent a lot of time on that idea in the book to make that differentiation and to give people ideas of how to find that intersection. There's a list of maybe 20 different props in the book. One of them is like, what do we want to accomplish in this world?

[: 00:18:37

And how can we do that better if our customers come alongside us? So there's ideas like that to think about, why would people want to gather around you?

[: 00:18:48

And I think that why is really what can become the fuel in a new kind of business, because I think of a lot of businesses as highly commoditized. I think maybe It support is a very good example of a commoditized business. You fix my computer and you fix my computer, but you're $10 cheaper, so I'll choose you. If you can bring something else into that, if you can bring a mission into that, if you can bring something that will allow me to say yes to your business. And it's no longer about price, because we have shared values and we're on a shared journey, and I want to go on that journey with you, and are you going to support me in my journey? It now becomes no longer about the commodity, but it's about the true value to me, because if everybody is equal in the commodity and let's face it, most businesses at a commodity level are kind of the same, what can make that difference is where things can get exciting. I'm rambling a little bit, yeah, but.

[: 00:19:46

I actually use an example like that in the book. There's an opening story in chapter two that talks about a cheese shop where my family came from, Pittsburgh, and it's been there since 1903. And cheese is a commodity, sausage is a commodity. But what makes them different is this feeling of belonging. They know the people there. The people, their customers become like part of a family. They hang out at the store not just to buy something, but to socialise. And so that becomes the way to transcend this idea of a commodity if there's an underlying emotion and purpose.

[: 00:20:36

There was another thing that I read in the book, and I jumped about a little bit in order to do research for the podcast. And I think this is further towards the end of the book where you're talking about secret communities, which sounds super spooky, but it's actually very powerful. It's often said, for example, that a personal brand, or a brand in general is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And a lot of the time we assume that's in people's heads, but actually it's not. So these little pockets of community around the world, around the internet. It could just be a dozen people chatting in a chat group. It could be a Facebook community. But those are the places where the conversations about your brand might be happening. And it's very interesting to think how they are part of your community as well. And if you can align your values, your purpose, with the purpose of those communities, they can essentially coalesce around your community. So you might not think that you have a large community as a small local retailer, for example, but if you can tap into these micro communities, you can find actually quite quickly that there's something very interesting can happen.

[: 00:21:47

Well, there are really profound implications of this trend and especially this is important with younger people and younger consumers. And we tend to think of Gen Z as, oh, those are the people that are in baby strollers. But here in America, we just had our first member of Gen Z elected the Congress. They're here, right? These are the new consumers, these are the new leaders, and these are the people that are going to be spreading the word about the brand. And the issue is they are not participating in traditional social media channels. And one of the implications is that the way that most brands keep track of ideas and trends and feedback is through social listening platforms. And you can see sentiment, you can see what the conversations are going on. And those platforms are rapidly becoming obsolete because Gen Z just they're not there. They're in walled communities with their friends. They're on Discord, they're on Fortnight, maybe they're on WhatsApp? Guess what? That's not showing up on social listening platforms. So that's one of the profound implications, that this new type of community is invisible from our view. And it's going to be really challenging for businesses to learn about them, stay connected to them, and be relevant in those communities in some way.

[: 00:23:26

And I think we don't have all the answers to that yet, but we definitely need to be aware of it and we also need to be aware of what that might mean for our own businesses. If we are thinking about creating communities and one of our target audiences is young people, then a Facebook group probably isn't going to work. A LinkedIn group probably isn't going to work. I was shocked. I gave a lecture at a college a few weeks ago and these were, oh, maybe 50 college students that were seniors ready to graduate out of the 50. Maybe two of them were on LinkedIn, which is just amazing to me. They don't even think about it as a viable place to be. So, yeah, I'm glad you brought up this last part of the book looks at what is the future of community from a sociological perspective and also from a technological perspective.

[: 00:24:28

So you brought up discord and fortnite. When I'm sitting down to make a little list of the places where Bob Gentle could create some community. Those wouldn't have made my list really discard. I have dabbled fortnite. I keep getting killed. There's no point.

[: 00:24:45

Yeah, I'm the same way. What's the use?

[: 00:24:49

But this is an important question, because the instinct is always this is even if we need to have a vehicle for our community, maybe it's just communicating better with an email group or an email list or a newsletter. Community doesn't always have to be open dialogue, although I think that's probably a very healthy way. It can be in one direction. Book readers, for example. They are a community.

[: 00:25:13

No, I disagree. That's a distinction I make in the book, and I apologise to disagree, but it is an I'm happy to be told, because this is a really important distinction. A group of book readers is not a community, it's an audience. And an audience is fine, by the way. An audience is great. And one of the points I make early in the book is this concept of the emotional continuum. And it's a very important point, because most businesses are stuck using advertising and social media, but social media, those are weak relational links. Generally speaking, you put out a message, you don't really know if anybody sees it or cares. The next step in the continuum is an audience. It's a podcast, it's a blog, it's a book, it's a Twitter chat. And that's really important because now people, they listen to you, they opt into you. They say, we want to hear what you say. So it's not this mysterious connection like you might have in social media now. There's a stronger emotional connection. You're relevant, and you can even create influence. But the problem is, if you go away, the audience goes away.

[: 00:26:38

Community, it is a dialogue. It's not a cult of personality. In my community, if I went away, people would be sad because I'm kind of the papa bear, but it would keep on going. We're having experiments in the Metaverse that are run by completely different people. We've had events in the Metaverse. I haven't even been there. We're working on other projects and other collaborations where I'm just sitting by and cheering them on. And I couldn't possibly create all this value in the community on my own. We're nurturing each other, we're teaching each other, and that's why people are there. It's not because of me. It's because something bigger and something more important and something more permanent is happening. And that's the real power of community, where it's a place to belong. And that's something that it's the ultimate marketing. It is the ultimate marketing. It's marketing with no marketing. You don't need sales anymore. You don't need SEO anymore. You don't need emails or flyers. You've got a community that knows you and trusts you and loves you and will support you in any way you need.

[: 00:28:03

So this is actually a distinction that I was leading to is that in order to have community, you kind of need some kind of platform for it. We mentioned Fortnite and Discord, facebook groups, LinkedIn communities. WhatsApp groups? There are a lot of different potential vehicles.

[: 00:28:24

And by the way, it could also be a coffee shop, it could be live. We tend to think directionally in terms of digital, but there are lots of examples in my book that are live communities. They have events, they have conferences, they have Zoom meetups where they're face to face. So it can also be something that's a live interaction.

[: 00:28:50

That's a really important point, because I think for a lot of people, especially if your business is a local business, it very much makes sense to become the heart of that local community. Yes, but if you were going online, take somebody like me, for example, what would be driving your choice of platform? For me, because things like Facebook, it is incredibly difficult to get engagement, but then you have something like Discord, where there's a bit of a learning curve, and then you have a bit of resistance getting people who might not have used Discord to spend any time there. And then you have LinkedIn communities where it tends to be. You could basically run through the street naked in a LinkedIn group and nobody would know.

[: 00:29:31

And I've never understood that most LinkedIn communities are just ghost towns. Why? It just doesn't make sense. Well, I think it sort of goes like this, and I'll share my own experience with you. So the foundation of my community and I found this, Bob, in almost every community I studied for this book, the foundation of the community are people who are already there. So for me, I love thinking about what's next. And the people who read my blog or listen to my podcast, that's the reason they're there is they're kind of on this journey with me. So now the people who would be interested in being in a community, they're already there. I just have to fan the flames. I think for any business, if you've got people who just stand by you and love you and want to do more with you, you probably know who those people are. And it may not be a thousand, it could be five, it could be ten. But that can be the beginning for me. Once I started getting these people together, and I was connecting them through email, I was connecting with them through Zoom meetings, I said, we need a place to grow together.

[: 00:30:58

Where should we be? Should we be on Facebook? Should be on LinkedIn, should be on Slack? And the vote came in discord. I don't like discord. It is not the ideal place. But the point of the community was discord is where the future of community is going. Discord is the home of web three, and if we're going to learn about web three and we're going to learn about the metaverse, we should learn about discord too. I said, okay. So reluctantly we got onto discord, but it forced me to learn something new. It forced me to adapt to this change. So I let the community lead me into where we should meet.

[: 00:31:46

I think one of the things in the book that I want to highlight, because I've jumped all over the place and for the listener, I make no apologies for that. It's kind of what I do. But the book is very well structured, and you have a specific framework in order for people to help make these decisions, make these distinctions, so that it isn't a random process of moving towards community. But there is a framework for it that will derisk it, simplify it, and allow you to make the right decisions in the right order. Is that something I guess not meaning to put you on the spot, would you like to run us through that framework briefly just now in order that the listener can see a little so that we don't leave them in the chaos that I've created? Basically, yeah.

[: 00:32:32

Well, I think this book provides a framework, but it's not necessarily a how to book. And so let me make that distinction. Before I wrote this book, I wanted to make sure that I was creating something new. There are lots of books out there, some very good books, by the way, about how to start a community and run a community, how to hire a community manager, how to drive engagement. What do you do when things go wrong that is not this book. This book is the high level book. It's the first book of its kind to say, how do we really use community effectively, graciously as a marketing tool. And that requires a whole new way of thinking about things. And I'll give you an example. The book has just come out, but one of the early readers of the book said, I have a community. I was totally disheartened. I didn't have any energy. We were failing. I read your book and I found out why. Now I have a whole new hope. Because this talks about sort of like the bones of the community, the philosophy of the community, the strategy behind community, the things that we talked about today, not thinking about selling, but thinking about purpose and buy in and passion and emotion.

[: 00:34:01

Things like bestowing status, culture. This is different. If you are approaching this from a traditional marketing point of view, you're almost certainly going to fail. And that, I think, is the power of this book, is challenging people about new ways to think about community through the lens of marketing for the first time. It takes a new strategy, a new mindset. You're focused on culture. You're focused on giving up power. You're focusing on bestowing strategy. You're focusing on measuring in a way that sort of gives up on the. Idea of sales, at least in the short term. But that's what brand marketing does, right? If you're sponsoring an event, are you going to be able to 100% say, we sold more beef or more hats or more lumber because we sponsored this event? No, you're never going to be able to say that. And that's the mindset you need to have, at least in the beginning with community. So this book is a big stick that's going to whack a business across the head and say, nope, you've got to manage in a different way. You've got to think about this and nurture people in a different way.

[: 00:35:29

And, oh, by the way, this is not only going to help your business, this is going to help the world, this is going to help heal. This is actually marketing that people will embrace. It's marketing they will like. It's marketing that heals. Isn't that profound that you will be able to go home every day and say, I am really proud of what we did. We're doing something important here.

[: 00:35:52

I think that's really powerful. And I think for me, where I'm coming to is this book is doing for community what your book, Known, did for content. It really is. Okay. Everyone's telling you, you should write a blog. Let's look at the stories of 30 people who have been creating content, what it actually did for them, that this isn't about the quick win. This is about taking a strategic, long view to something.

[: 00:36:20

Absolutely. I've never made that connection before, but you're right. The idea that I wrote and Known about the personal brand, it's not a quick solution. It's not an overnight solution. It's not easy, but it's the right solution. It's the same with this idea of community. It's not quick, it's not easy. But here's the point I make in the book. What marketing is easy. Today, there's almost nothing, and I've got enough grey hair to be able to say with some authority that this is probably the hardest time to be in marketing ever in the history of business. And if you're going to work on something hard, why not work on something that's actually something that's going to work, something that's actually that people are going to embrace and love you for?

[: 00:37:20

Well, I am aware that you have another meeting at the top of the hour, which for the listener is really soon. So I don't want to take up any more of your time other than to say I have had the best time speaking to you. I've learned a lot. I can't wait to get deeper into the book, but it's Christmas and I haven't had a lot of time. I tell you, I have been all over Scotland in the last five days, and I really need to rest now.

[: 00:37:44

Well, it means so much to me. And this is this is this is certainly part of your personal brand. The care that you put into your content and your podcast, that you were prepared and took the time to get into the book as much as you could and really ask meaningful questions. So thank you so much. That means a lot to me, Bob.

[: 00:38:07

It is my absolute pleasure and that does bring us to the end of another episode. But before I let you go, Mark, what's one thing you do now that you wish it started five years ago?

[: 00:38:17

Honestly, community. It might sound like an answer with a lot of hubris behind it, but, Bob, one of the great failures of my life is never having a community. As we talked, we discussed, I've had an audience and I appreciate my audiences so much, but I've never had a community. And so now that I've established my own community, I'm getting so much benefit and joy from it. I really regret that it took me so long and it's going to be part of my legacy. I mean, the community is going to be part of my legacy and it's going to be here long after I am. So it's something I wish I would have started many years ago.

[: 00:39:08

Speaking of community and legacy, I nearly forgot, uprising conference in Ireland. Do you want to maybe take a couple of minutes to tell us about that?

[: 00:39:17

Thanks for mentioning that. I just thought it might be interesting. I know many of your listeners are in Europe. I've had a very well known popular event here in America called The Uprising, and my friends in Europe said, when are you going to do it over here? That's a lot of money for us to travel all the way to America. If you are interested in what's next in marketing, that's what this is about. We're not going to talk about how to do better Facebook ads, we're not going to talk about how to write better headlines for your blog posts. We're going to talk about how do we remain relevant, because in the next two years, you will not even be able to recognise the field of marketing and we're going to talk about that together. It's not a place where we have lectures, it's not where we have people pontificating with speeches. We gather together and we have deep, meaningful discussions on what's going to be next. And you will leave this event. It's in September 2023, September 26 through 29th. You can go on my website, businessesgrow.com, and look at events. It's easy to find all the details and I think it's the finest marketing event of its kind.

[: 00:40:40

It's very powerful. It's the best thing I've done in my career.

[: 00:40:45

And I think if anybody is in any doubt about what Mark said, that the next two years are going to look very different from the last 20. With everything that's happened in the last six weeks. If you haven't experienced things like Chat GPT, we don't have time. But everything is changing and it's going to be changing extremely fast. Mark, thank you for your time to listener at home. If you did enjoy this show then I would gently encourage you to leave a five star review that's five like the fingers on your hand, not one or two wherever you listen to podcast. And if it's on YouTube, just give it a like and subscribe. And if you did enjoy the show then you will also love the personal brand business roadmap. It's 100% free as a gift from me. It's 50 pages of everything you will need to start, scale or just fix your expert business. Click on the link in the show notes or just visit Amplifymead agencylogmap. Thanks again Mark. Thanks again to you home for listening and see you next time.

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