In this episode of CLOC Talk, host Adam Becker sits down with Catrine Chevalier and Andrea Shaheen to explore how the Education Advisory Council (EAC) is redefining learning in legal operations. From building a global, collaborative learning ecosystem to navigating rapid innovation like GenAI, they share how education is becoming a strategic driver of credibility and career growth. The conversation dives into what modern legal ops professionals need most—practical skills, peer-driven insights, and the ability to think strategically in a constantly evolving landscape. If you're looking to stay ahead in legal ops, this episode offers a clear view of where learning—and the profession—is headed next.

Hello everyone and welcome back to Clock Talk, the

2

official podcast of the Corporate

Legal Operations Consortium.

3

I'm your host, Adam Becker, and today

we're diving into the one of the most

4

important conversations shaping the

future of our profession, education

5

skills development, and how the Education

Advisory Council, or the EAC is helping

6

move legal operations forward globally.

7

I am lucky today to be joined

by two incredible leaders who

8

bring different perspectives and

deep experience to this work.

9

Karine Valier, and Andrea

Shaheen, welcome to you both

10

Andrea Shaheen: wife.

11

Thank you, Adam.

12

Thank you, Adam.

13

Adam Becker: I'm so excited you're here.

14

I feel like I know you so well

already, but let's make sure

15

everybody else knows you as well.

16

So can you tell me who you are?

17

What you do, starting with you, Andrea.

18

Andrea Shaheen: Thank you Adam, and I'm

thrilled to be with you and Karine today.

19

I'm Andrea Shaheen, as you so

kindly introduced, and I am the

20

director of Global Legal Talent

Development and Inclusion at Stryker.

21

Prior to my time at Stryker, I

have held roles in other large

22

in-house departments like Intel.

23

I worked in big law, Wilson, FINI

and Cooley, and I've worked in law

24

school education and development

at Stanford Law and at Santa

25

Clara Law here in the Bay Area.

26

So at Stryker, I have the absolute

pleasure of doing one of the

27

most fun jobs I've ever had.

28

I get to lead education and

development efforts for our department.

29

That includes onboarding, legal, training,

professional development, all the stuff

30

that really helps power our organization.

31

I also get to support our entire

legal operations team in a variety

32

of things, including our legal ai,

steerco, our comms engagement, and

33

our inclusion and community efforts

around de and i and pro bono.

34

So I get to do a variety of

exciting things, and it just

35

keeps evolving and changing.

36

So, Katrina, I'll, I'll

kick it over to you.

37

Catrine Chevalier: Thank you.

38

So changed value with DHL on

the legal operations manager

39

for our Americans region.

40

I've been with DHL for

about five years now.

41

Kind of a subject matter expert in all

fields of legal apps as I continue to

42

build out our legal operations structure.

43

So just very excited to be here

and to provide some insights.

44

Adam Becker: We're excited to hear

them, so we're gonna jump right into it.

45

Let's take a little context here.

46

So you both raised your hand to join

the EAC at a really interesting time

47

in our industry's development 'cause

legal ops and the way we learn and what

48

we learn is evolving really quickly.

49

So Katrina, let's start with you.

50

What prompted you to join the a

c and like what are you hoping

51

to see from your involvement?

52

Catrine Chevalier: Yes, definitely.

53

Thank you for the question.

54

So throughout my career in legal

operations, I found that I've

55

really learned an enormous amount

of information from people who are

56

willing to share within this industry,

from what worked, what didn't, and

57

what they wish they had known sooner.

58

You know, in legal operations,

sometimes it can be very isolating.

59

And we're all trying to solve for

the same problems in parallel.

60

So I don't wanna keep on

reinventing the wheel.

61

So I really wanna be part of a team

that brings really peer driven,

62

critical thinking perspective together

across all industries and just really

63

help facilitate how we can continue

to drive the information sharing and

64

building initiatives that we have.

65

Adam Becker: Andrea, same question to you.

66

Andrea Shaheen: Adam, I'm so excited

to be a part of the EAC and thrilled to

67

be a new member with Karine, but this

is the team where learning and content

68

strategy is actually being shaped for

the next generation of legal ops leaders.

69

For our more experienced leaders.

70

So I've been leading efforts in

learning and professional development,

71

as I mentioned for many years

in large organizations, and it's

72

very exciting for me to be able

to bring that experience to clock.

73

And I've always been impressed

in my time with Clock just how

74

collaborative this organization is.

75

And it's striking, and I'm sure

you know those of us who've

76

practiced in litigation in the past.

77

How this is different from being in

litigation practice where it's very

78

adversarial and you know, knowledge

is this competitive advantage.

79

But here in legal operations.

80

This collaborative environment where

we're all trying to solve really similar

81

challenges, similar operational challenges

where knowledge helps all of us do better.

82

I mean, we're all looking at how to

implement technology effectively.

83

We're all trying to structure service

delivery models and how to manage

84

outside counsel and other vendors.

85

And for all of us, there is such value

in learning what works for some of

86

us and to really bring that out to

share with the entire organization.

87

Adam Becker: I think that is

so important for all of us.

88

'cause we all come to the AC from

different companies with different

89

backgrounds, different types of companies.

90

Some people are in firm,

some people work in academia.

91

You know what you just

said, I'd actually like to.

92

Talk about it a little bit because I'm

not very good at following any script

93

here, so we're going way off immediately.

94

But you know how people absorb

content now is changing and I've seen

95

things at my company when we were

a startup three years ago, which I

96

thought, huh, that's interesting.

97

I've never seen that before.

98

So like what do you think is like

one of the more interesting ways that

99

people are absorbing content that

you're seeing or what's working you

100

think you first Andre on this one.

101

Andrea Shaheen: First of all, this

industry is evolving rapidly and we have

102

to stay at the forefront of these rapidly

developing innovations as legal operations

103

professionals within our organizations in

order to keep our organizations adopting

104

these innovations and to be fluent.

105

These innovations, I mean, obviously Gen

ai, I'll be the first one to mention it.

106

Clearly a big one that

we're all grappling with.

107

Really, I mean, we're all

trying to figure it out.

108

We're all trying different things.

109

We're all throwing spaghetti at

the wall to see if it sticks.

110

And really the goal is making sure

our teams are equipped with the

111

knowledge and really the use cases,

the ability that we can provide them

112

to gain fluency to be a competitive

advantage for their organizations.

113

So that's one way.

114

But really, I mean, we as clock, what

I've seen us do really well is harness

115

the virtual environment to the fullest

extent, to enable really our entire

116

global community to advance learning

together and build new ways, do new

117

pathways, new content models to fuel our

knowledge to support our organizations.

118

So I think tapping into that is really.

119

Tapping into that virtual learning

environment to support our global

120

community is one thing that we're

doing really well to, and that change

121

in how we're consuming information.

122

Catrine Chevalier: Yes.

123

I think for me it is definitely the

virtual environment because our teams

124

are no longer based in one region.

125

Sometimes we're working with teams

that have to work globally amongst each

126

other, and I think for me, what I've

seen is having that interactivity, right?

127

Being able to kind of whiteboard.

128

Or have these exercises where

we're all within the same space.

129

And contributing information has been

very useful with how people learn

130

by actually doing certain activities

or seeing somebody else doing it.

131

And then, you know, you can kind of tie

along as well, but also that discussion.

132

Is vital because when you have

that discussion, you find bits of

133

information that you didn't know before

and you're really sharing that peer

134

knowledge that you might not have

received if you were just reading from

135

a document or maybe just watching a

screen by screen training program.

136

Adam Becker: It's so interesting how we've

all changed so much and how we learn.

137

And back in 2020 we had to learn how to

learn this way, and now we embrace it.

138

It's fascinating.

139

All right, let's get real

about something here.

140

You know, a few years ago when people

said Clock, they would think, well,

141

really the Clock Global Institute.

142

In fact, five years ago people

would say, are you going to clock?

143

And now we call it the Clock Global

Institute, and it remains one of

144

our flagship events where a lot of

content and a lot of learning happens.

145

But a lot else is going on.

146

We've got webinars, we've

got online programmings.

147

We're getting, you know, a

learning management system.

148

We've got the Clock Academy, we've got

regional events all over the world at

149

this point, what are you excited about?

150

What do you want to help shape with

all this stuff that we're doing?

151

Catrine Chevalier: I'm just

really interested in helping to

152

shape this learning ecosystem.

153

Like you said, addon, there's already

so many different tools and learning

154

environments that we currently have.

155

I just wanna help contribute to the

future work because we wanna take

156

legal ops from being reactive to

being proactive, and that does mean

157

changing the way that we learn as well.

158

So I'm interested in the LMS.

159

Building that out, just making sure that

it's adaptive, it's intelligent, and it's

160

really building off of real opportunities

because in legal ops we change daily.

161

So just being part of that and helping

the system to be able to keep up with

162

that pace is very interesting for me.

163

Andrea Shaheen: Yeah, I'm excited

about a lot of things that

164

clock offers and in our role.

165

On the EACI feel like we can really

help to enable our members to help

166

their legal ops teams embrace the

strategic superpower we have and help.

167

As you know, we mentioned, you know,

we're delivering faster innovations.

168

And deliver measurable impact.

169

So all of the working groups that we

are a part of, I think support that.

170

But a few of the ones I'm involved in

the Academy 100 level working group.

171

I mean, for me, I feel like this is really

the foundation of legal operations and

172

for us to, you know, I see it as like

the onboarding program for legal ops and

173

I've created onboarding programs in many.

174

So this is really like

squarely written my wheelhouse.

175

And so I see it as, okay, a great entry

point for new talent and ensuring they

176

have essential skills to succeed from

day one, but also to keep evolving

177

that content because you know, as Pat

Portray said, we're constantly changing.

178

It's evolving even, you know,

the foundational elements

179

of our clock 12 is there.

180

Within that, I think there's constant

changes, so I feel really excited

181

about continuing to evolve that

content and being a great place.

182

I mean, I get people asking me often about

starting a career in legal operations,

183

and so Clock offers a flagship program

for this kind of learning for new folks.

184

Also CGII am thrilled to be a part

185

that this is, like you said, Adam, a

flagship event, plaque's known for it.

186

But I do feel like we've got amazing

content and different tracks of content

187

and I think an opportunity to really

uplevel our experienced member content.

188

That's what we frequently hear

when clock is compared to other

189

organizations that, okay, well, you

know, clock is more for beginners.

190

Well, I disagree.

191

I think we have experienced mature

members who've been in the industry

192

since the beginning that can continue

learning with content that we can

193

help curate fresh content that is

kind of that next level for those of

194

us who've been around for a while.

195

Adam Becker: I want to run with that a bit

and kind of ask you a hard question based,

196

so you know, what have we talked about?

197

We talked about we don't

wanna reinvent the wheel.

198

We are solving a lot of the same

poor problems, but everything's

199

changing all the time.

200

The role is evolving.

201

Everything's new.

202

There are new people coming in.

203

We have experienced people, we've got

mid-level people, so the role is changing.

204

Realistically, US three are doing

things today that would not have been

205

on the legal ops plate five years ago.

206

So my question is, tying this into

education, and this is a hard question,

207

so feel free to get lofty on it,

but what role do you think education

208

plays in advancing legal ops globally?

209

Not just really skills, which we've talked

about, but credibility, career growth.

210

GC acceptance or, or even desirability?

211

That's a hard question.

212

Andrea, you get to go first on this one.

213

Andrea Shaheen: It is a tough

one, and I think that building

214

credibility with the leaders of our

organizations is really pivotal.

215

We see the investment that

leaders in legal departments

216

are making in legal operations.

217

It's real.

218

There's job descrip.

219

There's recs out there all over LinkedIn.

220

For legal ops position, this is an

investment and it's a worthy investment,

221

so we have to rise to it and education

and industry knowledge, the way that

222

we can all build that is in clock.

223

It's sharing our collective experiences.

224

This is one of the key ways when

we can share things that have

225

worked, things that haven't worked.

226

With our community, with our peers

that are out there in different

227

industries, in legal departments, in

different industries, it really helps

228

us to share real world experiences

and beyond just what we've done.

229

When we can harness the collective

experience of this community and

230

relay that with to our leaders,

and of course, clock is equipping

231

us, one of the things we can do is

equip our members with the skills to

232

actually communicate those things.

233

We learn from our collective

experiences to our leaders in ways

234

that show that we do know what we're

talking about and that we can deliver.

235

Wish measurable results.

236

I mean, that's kind of the easy one.

237

I know we could get at it.

238

We can definitely talk

at length about this one.

239

Catrine Chevalier: Yeah.

240

I think for me there's so many different

avenues within legal operations when

241

we think about it now when it comes

to knowledge management, engineering,

242

data analytics, process improvements.

243

What I like about education with

legal apps, especially with this

244

EAC team, is really that it's

going to help create that standard.

245

On where we want our legal operations

to go as far as the skillset

246

and also the mindset and how to

continue to drive that forward.

247

And it also helps us create that

common language that we can use across

248

different regions and industries

and other legal systems as well.

249

So I do believe that education really

sets that foundation that we can

250

continue to build on where it doesn't

really matter what your track with

251

the illegal operations, but you're

able to have a real career path.

252

Adam Becker: I agree with all that, but

let me ask you the next hard question.

253

You opened this one up, Katrina, 'cause

you kind of hinted at it for that

254

career path and opening up, where does

education or legal ops learning, where

255

should it be in three, five years?

256

What should we be doing then to

keep that career growth going?

257

Catrine Chevalier: I think we should

continue to have the discussions amongst

258

our peers on things that we're seeing as

trends within legal operations, because

259

I think that's going to help guide us

on where that education path should

260

go, because things change so fast, but

it changed at these driven levels for

261

different teams, and I think by still

having that peer driven community talk.

262

And that's really going to help

drive where we should steer

263

within the next five years.

264

Andrea Shaheen: I believe Lock

is already the industry leader,

265

but poised to continue to do so.

266

And as I said, to really enable us to

go beyond the cost center within our

267

legal department, which is already cost

center, and to be more of the strategic

268

leaders within the legal department.

269

And really think about, I think

focusing on creating more content

270

for our experienced members to

continue to keep that engagement.

271

So I feel like keeping the experience

member engagement really does help kind of

272

support the credibility of all our members

and new folks the whole way through.

273

Also, you know, when we think

about like the global standard of

274

excellence, I mean, you touched on this.

275

I agree.

276

I mean, I'm seeing more and more

learning happening across communities

277

all over the world with clock supported

academies, networking meetups, and

278

really just building out more of our

virtual platforms to enable this kind

279

of inclusive global learning experience.

280

I feel like that.

281

Gives us that, you know, much broader

community and you know, to keep us going

282

down that path of just kind of building

that worldwide momentum over the years.

283

And then continuing to just double

down on the new innovations like

284

gen AI and just supporting anything

that will enable our community.

285

To support adoption fluency and to just

be at the cutting edge of all of the, you

286

know, use cases, data, storytelling for

our leaders and just the overall change

287

management experience within this space.

288

Adam Becker: I think you've hit on a lot.

289

One of the things I want to plug since

you triggered it is, you know, a lot

290

of our regional meetings and gatherings

are actually open to everybody.

291

If you just sign up.

292

I think our members should take

advantage of maybe popping into an

293

EMEA gathering at some point, or a

seminar they're doing, or Brazil.

294

There's a lot of really interesting

perspectives you can get globally from how

295

people are talking, what they're doing,

and not everybody has that opportunity.

296

And here we do.

297

You know, I've been very fortunate that

I've been to the I Media conference.

298

It is slightly a different perspective

and it's really helpful to bring some

299

of those ideas back into my real job.

300

So certainly something people

should take advantage of.

301

But then I'm gonna hit on

something else you said and

302

I'm, we're gonna get deep again.

303

So we talk a lot about foundational,

middle, and experienced.

304

Yeah.

305

And it seems like we have a

lot of the things in place

306

to talk about actual skills.

307

How do you build a budget?

308

How do you do an RFP?

309

Like there are resources

available for those skills.

310

What seems to be harder to really

provide learning on is something like.

311

How do you become strategic?

312

What does that mean?

313

You know, it's a very hard thing to

even put into words, but how do you

314

even like teach people, like this

is what it means to be strategic.

315

So I don't know if that's a gap or

where do you think things are going?

316

Do you think we should continue to

focus on hardcore skills, or which we

317

will, obviously, but also like what

else do we have to bring in at that, you

318

know, to that advanced level, which is

maybe a little bit harder to verbalize.

319

Andrea Shaheen: I feel like we're all

really good at getting things done.

320

I think that's something that is just a

common thread in legal operations folks.

321

We are tactically really

good at execution.

322

It's really important to do that

because that helps build credibility

323

in your organizations when you're

seen as someone that gets stuff done.

324

So getting out of that.

325

Has been a personal challenge for

me because tactically I can just

326

rock through a bunch of things and

just be someone that just highly

327

accountable, highly responsible.

328

But it's getting elevated out of that

and into more of a strategic mindset

329

that I think is challenging for people.

330

It's challenging for me, and I'm a

lawyer by background, and it takes time,

331

I think, to shift mindset into more of

that strategic way of thinking, and so I.

332

Still and very much in the learning space.

333

I know we all are.

334

You know, until, hopefully until the

end of time, we will continue learning.

335

But for the strategic mindset, I

would love to see us do, bring some

336

more content to this community.

337

Around that.

338

One of our development programs in

my organization for our emerging

339

leaders in the legal department,

we take them to do an executive

340

leadership program at a university.

341

I mean, a big part of that is,

you know, strategic thinking.

342

And so if there is a way we can curate

our own model of what that looks

343

like, I mean, I know we do that.

344

We have some of that content in the

foundations courses and the academy.

345

I think that there's a lot of

opportunity out there to think about

346

at a more kind of macro level, what

that looks like, and then at the clock

347

level, what that looks like for us.

348

Adam Becker: Okay.

349

Katrina, your turn to answer my

inherently unfair and unairable

350

Catrine Chevalier: question.

351

Great.

352

Great.

353

I think.

354

That there should be a structure, right?

355

Like Andrea said, we have the clock 12.

356

We have the foundation of building

blocks as far as like what you should be

357

doing within the legal operation space.

358

But then we also have the

personal development, right?

359

And that's where you kind of get

intentional on where you are now

360

and where you should be within

your role with your organization.

361

And I do think that could be

supported by an LMS or other

362

online content that we have.

363

But really just staying engaged with

your peers and staying engaged with

364

this organization to help build that

personal development is also very

365

important because I can say when

I joined DHL five years ago, I did

366

not come from a legal background.

367

I was very much project

management on that person.

368

In the back, I don't really

have to interact with people.

369

So actually having to do presentations

to the whole team, and then

370

now you have to train somebody.

371

So I really think that for me it

was personal development that helped

372

bring me to where I was before, to

where I currently need to be and

373

where I should be in the future.

374

Adam Becker: I have so many

thoughts on what you just said.

375

They're gonna have to wait till

we see each other in Chicago.

376

I have two more questions for you

and I'm gonna wrap it up and you're

377

gonna go back to solving all of the

problems that we all face day to day.

378

Alright?

379

You're both very popular.

380

Everybody wants to talk to you.

381

They know who you are.

382

What are you hearing?

383

What do people want?

384

Tell me what you're hearing, Andrea.

385

Andrea Shaheen: I hear people that

they're interested in kind of that

386

developing their professional skills.

387

So just as you said, Katrine, we are asked

to present all the time in leadership

388

roles, and that just goes without

saying in any organization you are in.

389

Once you start elevating

up into the legal ops.

390

Leadership team, you will be

presenting all the time to your

391

leadership team on all the different

initiatives you have going.

392

You'll be communicating

in many different ways.

393

So I think that is a regular request

I've seen is more content around just

394

creating communication plans and.

395

Really delivering the key messages that

need to be delivered to your leaders and

396

your organization as a part of the change

management that we're really executing

397

on as legal operations professionals.

398

So that's a big one, but Big Rock

that we do bits and pieces of it

399

throughout CGI, and I think we throw

in a couple webinars here and there,

400

but I possibly, this could be a track.

401

This could be a track in and of itself.

402

Catrine Chevalier: I agree.

403

Within the legal operations space, we

are asked to drive transformation, right?

404

Whether it's a new process, a new

technology, there's new expectations

405

that are placed on us all the time.

406

The feedback that I'm

getting is, how do I do that?

407

That's not an easy question, right?

408

What I think would be for them would

be more scenario based learning,

409

more peer exchange, and more real

world examples that when they leave.

410

Talk and where they leave CGI, it's

really something that I can use tomorrow.

411

I think that's the biggest takeaway is

what can I gain now that I can implement

412

tomorrow to help drive transformation?

413

And I think we're gonna continue

to hear about change management

414

because it's becoming a real

big demand on ops right now.

415

Adam Becker: The change nowadays

is quicker and more unmanageable

416

than ever before, so there's

certainly an opening for that.

417

All right.

418

Last question, quick hit.

419

We're gonna let you all go in a minute.

420

Karine, what excites you most about the

future of legal ops education through

421

the EAC this year, let's say this year?

422

Catrine Chevalier: I'm excited

for all the new ways that the EAC

423

is looking to provide information

and education to the LI Ops space.

424

And I'm just happy to be a part of

that and help to, you know, give my

425

little 2 cents on how that should be,

426

Adam Becker: Andrea, final word.

427

Andrea Shaheen: I'm just so excited

to get out there and meet more of our

428

members and hear what they want and.

429

CGI will be a great place to start

those conversations with all of you.

430

I can't wait.

431

Adam Becker: Well, you heard it Here.

432

Go find both.

433

I'll find all three of us at cgi.

434

I tell us what you want because

that's what we're here for.

435

Thank you both so much for

not only being here today and

436

sharing your thoughts, but for.

437

Stepping up to the A a C and bringing

your ideas and the things you wanna

438

see done, and it's, I'm so excited

to see what you come up with.

439

Thank you to everybody who's

listening for being part of clock.

440

If you enjoyed this episode of Clock

Talk, be sure to subscribe, share it

441

with your colleagues, stay connected,

and we continued to explore the

442

ideas shaping the future of legal

operations and our profession.

443

Until next time.

444

Keep learning, collaborating, and

keep legal ops moving forward.

445

Thanks everybody.

446

Catrine Chevalier: Thank you.

447

Thank you.