Want to hear Andy being coached on how to deal with women's menopause in the workplace? then you're in the right place.

We hear how Corinne went from being an actress to becoming a fully fledged career coach, why she's so passionate about helping people find a better career life, how companies should approach advertising job roles, and more importantly, what they should be doing to keep their employees interested, satisfied and happy!

Corinne's recommendation:

Succession (TV series)

BWB is powered by Oury Clark

businesswithoutbullshit.me

Want to hear Andy being coached on how to deal with women's menopause in the workplace?

Then you're in the right place.

Welcome to Bwb Extra where we get to know renowned career coach and best selling author, Corrin Mills a little better.

We hear how Corrin went from being an actress to becoming a fully fledged career coach.

Why she's so passionate about helping people find a better career life.

How companies should approach advertising, job roles, and more importantly, what they should be doing to keep their employees interested, satisfied, and happy after they've actually hired them.

So let's wind the clock right back and get a bit more into you personally.

How did you end up doing?

What you're doing.

You wanted to be an actress?

I did.

So I was an actress up until the age of 26.

Oh right.

And I did some, you know, theater and I did some small TV parts and the Dew senders I did, unfortunately.

But you did actually achieve what you were, you know, you were an actress.

I did, to some extent.

I didn't turn out to be quite the duty dench that I hoped that was gonna be.

So I thought, oh, actually I better go and get myself a proper job.

So I.

Got a job.

Wanged my way into hr.

Really liked HR trained, moved into kind of senior HR roles.

Did became a fellow of the C I P D, but then I got head hunted to run a for charity, an employment center, and thought this is really different.

HR could be quite firefighting sometimes.

Oh god, yeah.

Wanted to do something a bit more positive.

So this.

Standard.

Very positive.

Anyway, lots of people crying.

Lot of Kleenex.

Yeah.

Lot of crying and a lot of, yeah, a lot of, you know, and I loved it.

So this, this, this opportunity to work for a community, helping people with all kinds of challenges around their career.

Loved it.

Worked there for seven years.

Had my second child thought, or maybe I'll work part-time, maybe I'll work in a different way and actually thought, well, maybe I should start my own business.

Maybe this is the opportunity to do it.

So actually, I worked part-time in my other job.

I started this new business part-time.

Built it up till it was time I had, you know, earned enough to to, to leave my other job.

And that was personal career management.

And that was 20 years ago.

We've got a team of 10.

We work globally, we work with fucking palace, we work with Grant Thornton, we work with Buckham Palace.

Yeah.

Career.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Career guidance.

That's I to be fair, that's, that's one job that you don't need any qualifications for.

Have you got a long-term goal?

My long-term goal is I would like to help individuals and organizations realize that you don't need to be a wage slave.

That actually there's more to life and more to career than just doing it to pay the bills.

And I think even now, right, you know, needs must, right?

Cost of living crisis and all of that, we've all gotta be able to pay our bills.

Mm-hmm.

But, Your career and your work life can be so much more interesting and rewarding than that.

And I think sometimes people don't give themselves permission to think that.

They think, oh, that's just the grind.

That's how it is.

And also for organizations, right?

You can make it more interesting for individuals.

This must be at the.

Top end though.

I mean, this is, you know, the whole live your dream stuff.

Well, you know, what if you, you gotta work in a warehouse.

I mean, how does that work?

They can be happy working in a warehouse.

I, I've worked with people who literally, they, they watch stuff on conveyor belts coming through milk bottles on conveyor belts.

How does that job mean more interesting?

But those individuals had a real sense of pride in their job.

They liked it.

They saw that as quality control.

They had to problem if something went wrong with the conveyor belt, they had to fix it.

They had teamwork that was involved.

Actually, they were really happy in that job.

It doesn't mean to say that you are doing a, a relatively junior job that that still can't feel rewarding, but you know, their experience might be different in.

That organization and another organization.

So I'm saying that there is better things out there for you if you are really unhappy where you are.

You should be able to, if you're unhappy in your job, do something about it.

Exactly.

But it's very like, um, there's the same problem with relationship.

Actually.

My, my sister gave me the best advice on this, which is that, you know, don't settle for average.

Our thing is, is that when we look around, we go, wow, you know, this, this, and this's bad or bad it, and this is good at it.

And maybe that's, you know, that's just the way it is.

It's like, And he's certainly in, in relat in sort of, you know, choosing to give up independence.

So becoming in a relation independence is amazing.

So like you, you know, which was her point, but in a job you're kind of saying that y Yeah.

You know, don't, don't just settle for it, just being all right then that if, I think that's true.

I dunno if that, you can always hold that true.

You might just not be able to get another job.

You might just be stuck.

You've always got options.

Honestly, it's never too late.

So I, so again, in my job, I'm meeting people all the time who are.

Stuck in their career.

They've got perhaps a boss who's a bit of a bully, who doesn't, you know, who's, um, not interested.

They're having a, who doesn't value them, doesn't value, and, but their confidence goes really low.

It goes, kind of think, well, that's all I'm worth.

So they feel really stuck.

It's like, no, you're worth much more than that.

You've always got options.

Now it might not be something you can immediately step into right the next day.

But you can work on getting yourself out.

You can have a plan.

It is absolutely achieveable.

I've literally, I know this is on the bl.

I've helped thousands of people do that.

It is perfectly possible, even in challenging circumstances, and there are, you know, it's a really good recruitment market at at the moment.

But even challenging circumstances, you don't have to put up with a really miserable experience for it.

How would, how would you define what you shouldn't put up with if you are feeling sick to your stomach?

Oh, that's quite though about the thought of going in to work.

That's telling you something, right?

Gosh, gosh.

You need to do something about it.

When I left my last job, cause I've only been at ING Club for two years, I left.

And then I got sort of two or three job offers and then, and I was gonna take, frankly, the kind of one that was kind of most prestigious, cuz I kind of in my head thought that's what you are supposed to do.

You're just supposed to keep climbing and climbing.

Climbing, yes Lord.

And then I thought, why the fuck am I doing this?

Why don't I just go and do the job with people I like the most?

And that I think is gonna be most fun.

Yeah.

And now I'm a Marie Clark.

What a mistakes, you know, there's so many ways that could end it, but they couldn't take me, so I ended up so, but you know, you at some point you've gotta think, actually, what am I gonna enjoy?

It's got got to be a little bit of employment.

There's the pandemic told us that it's like we never know what's around the corner.

It is like, oh my gosh, you've gotta enjoy your life.

Sometimes people are unhappy at home.

I mean, that sometimes happens that they, they tick it out on their job and they blame their job cuz they're blind to themselves and they's true blind to their own.

Pain or whatever they're going through.

And that you, we know that, I always know that I can spot it now because you have someone who is good and then they're not happy, and then you fix whatever they're not happy about and then they're still not happy.

So you do something else and then that goes on for a couple of years until they say, oh yeah, I just don't wanna do any of it.

And it's a, but the truth is always, you know, they're in a bad relationship or you know something.

Oh, sure.

Oh, there's a, there's a lot of complexity.

It's a work, it's a situation, but it's also the personal context as well, what's happening in people's lives.

Of course, it's a combination of that, but that's the anchor underneath it.

So it's like the advi, if you are un, if you are unhappy to go to work, it's like, try and question whether you're maybe just unhappy first, you know what I mean?

Because, uh, you know, you.

So that you don't wanna be doing, changing both at once, keep the job and then sort your personal life out and then find your dream job.

Uh, but again, with coaching, look, that is what you're doing, you're saying, right?

That's a presenting issue, right?

You hate your job.

Let's look at what's really going on.

What's going on.

Yeah.

In the work, what's the situation, what's the context?

What's going on at home?

You are, you are looking at all of those factors cuz you're right cuz to make a decision, a big decision to leave somewhere or go or apply for a new job internally and whatever it is, you wanna make sure that that's on sound.

Foundations not, yeah.

Slippery ground.

How do you deal with a menopausal woman, though?

What's the, what's the top tips for dealing with the man?

You'd be nice to her.

What if she says what tos in here and everything?

You supposed, you allowed to say, cause it's my sister.

I do.

But if she, my sister, jump off, can I say, oh, is that the menopause again?

That's probably a no-no.

Is it?

You've just gotta like, no.

But you know, because it's too hot, but it's not too hot.

You're like, it's actually, you know, it, it's a bit, look, we've talked about menopause, but it's about a lot of things, whether it's menopause, whether it's about, um, wellbeing or mental health, or it's about personal issues.

Sometimes you're just giving people a space to talk it through and people don't realize, sometimes people don't realize that it might be the menopause or it might be a relationship.

That's what you're meaning it.

Oh, pardon me.

I was thinking, I dunno, having an I influence, I can't say to someone, look, I just want you to talk the menopause through with me.

No, just take, just take me through what you're going through.

Giving people, acknowledging that it's a thing that exists and giving people the opportunity to discuss it as though it's not a taboo and curse subject that you can't talk about.

It's like nobody will talk about periods.

Well, no, that's, that's, see, the interesting thing about why I'm asking that is this is women's businesses as it was described to me.

So I need, I need, you need to, um, what's the word?

Um, enable men to be able to dis because we don't feel that, we feel that like.

You know, you're saying you are insinuating that people don't talk about it.

They sort of, but men, men have learned and you, you know, you believe this is the, um, everyone's fault.

But, you know, we don't say women's female parts.

They're bad.

The worst swear words, we don't get involved in women.

I'm really, men must be mad.

You know what?

Yeah.

But you know, it'd be good to change that because I dunno, I dunno, we're out my, out our debts trying to talk about the menopause.

It's like a woman talking to us about, you know, libido.

You know, not being able to get it up.

I mean, that's an experience you guys will never go through.

It's the worst experience like in the world, you know?

It's like, it's awful, you know?

Anyway, I dunno.

I've never, no, I mean, it's terrible.

What did my, what did my friends say?

It's like trying to play, trying to play snooker with a, um, I'm, I'm fully eyes open, you know, opposite every man.

At some point I felt there was this one girl that used to happen with, anyway, what's the, too much information that, that is too much information.

What's the most misunderstood thing about what you do?

That it's, you know, a bit of advice and a pet talk.

Right.

It's a lot more complex than that because, as we've just said, the word a patch, I think people kind of think, ah, nothing to that.

So I think with a career coach, you, you've gotta kind of work out.

Who this person is, help them understand themselves.

And that's, we're all complex, aren't we?

You've gotta understand, understand this professional skills, you've gotta understand the job market and where that might fit.

So there's a lot of moving parts, I think with all of that.

And you as a career coach, you've got to really have.

Be on top of all of those things because you are, you're facilitating, but you're also giving advice and so you've, your advice has gotta be current as well.

Yeah.

You don't wanna meet someone who hasta 20 years time and puts their fist in your face, you told me to go into plumbing.

It's the worst move in my life.

When you are coaching them, you will actually give them advice.

You're not a kind of, I'd let you arrive at the answer.

Yeah, yeah.

No.

So career coaching is different.

And we will give advice cuz it's like, you know, if I said to you, how did you think you should do your cv right?

You're gonna look to me to say, right, let's do it.

Let, let's look at your profile, let's, right.

We need to focus on things.

Let's help craft it and we work on it together.

I see.

I mean, you know how to do the cv.

Do you know how companies should advertise jobs Any, any particular way?

Think there is something about they need to really focus on the skills that are really required.

I think sometimes they, they're too demanding in what they're looking for.

And actually I think that, you know, going back to what we said earlier, it just is simpler.

I think because again, it gets really wordy, really verbose, a lot of the kind of recruitment advertising, what are you actually looking for?

Yeah.

And authentic, because some of the marketing, right, you, you know, companies spend, you know, scores of thousands, hundreds, and employer branding, don't they?

And they all this.

Oh yes.

All this kind of, you know, shiny marketing come and work for us, but actually how authentic is it?

Mm-hmm.

And I think the other thing about that is, you know, they spend all this money trying to attract the talent, and then once talent is there, they don't look after them in terms of, and that's why the career development stuff is so important.

You know, at an interview they can be asked, you know, what's your five year career plan?

Where do you want to be in five years?

Right.

Once it been hard.

They never ask them again.

They never ask about their aspirations.

If you really want to get the best outta people, you want to develop the potential, particularly in such a tight recruitment market as it's now, it's hard to get hold a good candidates, isn't it?

You've got to nurture your people.

You've gotta grow them.

You've gotta help them develop.

And now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking Financial and legal advice since 1935.

You can find us@ariclark.com.

What are you most excited about for your business?

It feels like we are probably coming outta the pandemic.

You know, again, I know there's been a real theme about kind of remote and, but I'm going into way more offices now.

Many more face to face people will let you in.

Yeah.

And so there's just so much more of a creativity and an energy when you get people together in a room.

So I'm excited that that's opening up again.

And I'm also excited because it's a really nice job that I do.

Um, I help people be successful in their careers.

There's some really nice stories around that.

So it, it's a very rewarding thing to be, no, it's a nice job.

It's a nice job.

Job to get a kick outta that.

Oh, the opposite point.

If you would, if you cocked up though, must been your biggest fuck up.

I tell you an embarrassing thing, but, um, it happened to me, which was, um, I was de delivering a career workshop at Booking and Palace famous, and they had the footman come in and they, oh, I want a footman.

I know.

It's like, need a one.

Whenever I deliver a workshop, I would love to have Putman there.

Well, and they've said, you know, madam, would you like some tea?

And, uh, you know, should I pour it for you?

Like, Don't know why.

I dunno why I said no, that's perfectly all right.

I will do it myself.

I dunno what kicked in.

I dunno why I didn't let the full, because you didn't, you didn't, that you didn't want, you didn't want him made to feel posh.

You know, you didn't want to sort of, you know, ladi da, you, you, you're the lady of the people, you know, may maybe there were, there was all that kicking off.

Anyway, so I picked up the tea part, went poor, went all down my dress, oh my god, right at the start.

So I had, I was literally soaked with teeth.

I thought you were gonna tell me the foot got half and walked off.

What's the worst advice you've ever been given?

Don't make a fuss.

Don't make a fu fuss my love it experience.

It's always worth making a fuss because a polite fuss, polite fuss, a fussy fuss.

But I think we've probably all had experiences when people have said, oh, you know, they, they, they didn't mean it.

Or it's probably best to lie low.

Yeah.

Or not to just let it go.

But actually, you know, when there's something Well, if you raise it and, and if you are.

You know, if that wasn't intended in the way or then they've gotten the opportunity to say, no wrong handed the stick, it was this, that and the other.

You know, if you've, I, if there's something that's concerned you, but equally it gives a shot across the bells for them not to do it again.

Yeah.

So I think it's a boundary setting thing, and I.

Think that too often people, how'd you make a it too fu long fuss though.

I mean, you don't actually want to create a fuss.

A fuss is a bad thing to create.

You won't you You are saying don't, don't suffer in silence.

Yeah.

Say something.

But how, how do you do that without fuss?

So I think fu you say something like, can I just ask you about something?

I just noticed that you said this, that and the other, and I just wanted to check.

That out on a one-to-one top tip, you enormous race and no one else is what's going on.

No one else in the room, I assume get them on their own.

Well, I think it depends if sometimes it's in a group session, you might wanna say, Can I just check?

You've said that, can I, you know, and you just give them a, you just, you just repeat back a little bit and say, can I just clarify that?

And then they've got an opportunity to backtrack to Correct.

Yes.

When I was much more junior, one of my colleagues got my partner before me and I was immensely upset and I went to the partners and said, what the hell?

And they said he's asked pretty much every week since he qualified.

When am I being a partner made partner?

And I genuine, genuinely thought you just sat there and did a good job and one day a hand came on your shoulder and said, you know, well done now.

Good and faithful servant.

Yeah.

You can now be a partner.

And that is not how it works.

No.

You have to ask if you're gonna get, what's the best piece of advice you've ever given.

Name, whatever you think is going on.

So if there's something, you are got a kind of conversation going on and you're really not quite sure about what is happening here.

Then just name it.

Just call it, it's just language.

But again, it just gives you the opportunity for people to, if to, if you've got the wrong end of the stick, they can clarify it.

But if you are spot on, right, you'll know.

Yeah.

And they'll know that, you know.

And you could have a more authentic conversation about it.

I think this is quite good advice, but I think it might be really annoying if lots of people follow it.

You know?

You know what I mean?

Is this cause you just wanna have loads of ambiguous on face, it sounds like a comedy sketch.

Doesn't everyone going, are you backtracking on me?

Oh, is this getting, oh, oh, is this getting confrontational?

Oh, are you saying that we're in a room together talking to each other?

You know, it could get bad, but I think you're right to, to call it out.

Generally you're about calling things out.

Yeah, that's, but again, that's my job.

What advice would you give your younger self play to your strengths?

You are not gonna be good at everything, right?

Nobody is right.

Some things you rubbish at, but actually, if you can find the things that you're good at and and exploit those, yeah, you'll probably do okay.

And that's good advice for most people.

These are very good answers to the end there.

Actually, these have been good.

Uh, she is a correct and that's a correct and I so suddenly joke to myself, I said, oh, he's a really good s I was like, oh, that's such a, um, I'm, I'm pleased to see it.

Any recommendations for us of what to read?

Listen, watch.

Are you watching succession?

I've just managed to now get it on one of my TVs.

My wife did.

I, I've started series one, episode three or something.

Yeah.

Quite like it.

I mean, it's about a family business, so it's a bit close to home for me.

So what I like about succession is, is just the right, it's kind of stuffing nonsense, right?

But it's billionaires, you know.

And the playground games, the, the kind of lack of business rationale actually a lot of times for to, to sit, you know, the way billions have been spent or the purchase of companies, et cetera, is really

echoes sometimes a lot of the playground games you see in organizations because people do bring some really, you know, wild behavior sometimes into business that is not about what's best for the business.

But it's kind of more personally driven.

So I like the way that succession plays around with that and shows you that.

It's that amazing thing.

It particularly happens, I think with m and a transactions when somebody's, you know, you're selling a company or whatever and there's a lot of money on the table.

There's that whole kind of macho thing, and it gets into who can stay up longest, you know, like they have to carry on and do the deal and stay up till 4:00 AM and sign the documents when actually if everybody went home.

Got a good night's sleep and came back the next day, they'd be far more rational, far more reasonable and probably get a better deal.

But it's like kind of childishly.

It's, and I just really, I always find it, cause again, I hear it all the time about, you know, politics in fighting within organizations over mm-hmm.

Quite trivial, trivial stuff.

And the status is play.

All of those things are going on in organizations.

It's like, Why, what's the point of it?

And a lot of the time there's no point.

It doesn't serve the interest of the business, it doesn't serve the interest of the people on there, but it's this weird behavioral kind of pressure.

Yeah.

Shake it quite extreme though, about how you manipulate people, don't they?

I mean, I, I've only just from the first two episodes, it's, uh, maybe it is like that in some aspects of American most corporate life.

I mean, they're pretty vicious when it really gets down to the crunch.

But I think it's, it's, it is surprising how much.

Things go on behind people, things go on behind the corners.

Cuz kind of, that's how humans work.

That's kind of how deals are done, you know, and kind of how people deal.

Just as we are talking about one-to-one conversations and stuff, it's not all open and transparent, you know?

It is important that you go talk privately to someone about to unblock it or you know, to, to, you know, so, so I'm kind of interested because, you know, again, people will tell me stuff as a coach about what's going on in their organization.

Look as a lawyer, They will tell you, you know, you'll, you'll hear about that as well.

And it's astonishing sometimes the way, the kind of ruthlessness, but also the cruelty and kind of trivial nature of sometimes of some of the behavior that goes on.

When I was at university many, many years ago at the university I was at, there was an archeology department and a classics department separate.

Now in most universities, the archeology department and classics department were a joint thing.

The reason they were separate is because one of the lecturers.

Had accused another lecturer of sleeping with somebody else in the team who he wasn't sleeping with, he'd got incensed and they'd split the entire departments because they couldn't speak to each other.

And it's like insane.

Like there's no commercial or business rationale for doing it.

It was just cuz he said I'd slept with him and I haven't.

Politics, bad gossip, good.

That's who I am on the subject.

Love a bit of gossip.

So that was this week's episode of Bwb Extra, and we'll be back tomorrow with our final for the week, the Business versus Bullshit quiz.