Shownotes
Ohio rolls out one wasteful program after another. Why not lower our taxes instead?
Check out this episode of Common Sense Ohio where Norm Murdock, Steve Palmer, and Brett Johnson dive into some heavy topics like government intervention, the housing market, and the hot-button issues of gender identity and parental rights. No holding back as they break down the effects of recent Ohio legislation, including the buzzworthy House Bill 68 and Governor DeWine's executive moves. Kick back and enjoy the discussion! 🎙️🤔
Ten takeaways from this episode
1. Government decentralization: The proposal to relocate government centers from DC to major cities leads to a discussion on the potential spread of government and concerns about associated costs and cultural impacts.
2. Housing market and government programs: Criticism of Ohio's housing programs, including Welcome Home Ohio and Ohio Homebuyer Plus, prompts a conversation about their impact on housing prices and the role of government intervention in the housing market.
3. Retirement and Social Security: The hosts express concerns about the availability and adequacy of Social Security for retirement, highlighting the need for alternative income sources and long-term financial planning.
4. Education and student loans: The discussion covers the challenges of student loans, skepticism about a new student debt forgiveness program, and the importance of investing in education to prevent high debt burdens.
5. Government policies and incentives: The hosts critique various government programs and incentives, questioning their impact on personal responsibility, financial decision-making, and market dynamics.
6. Transportation and mass transit: There is a debate about the efficiency and taxpayer burden of mass transit, comparing private and public transit systems, and discussing the cost-benefit of expanding mass transit routes with federal funds.
7. American spirit and patriotism: The hosts express their love for the country while discussing their disagreements with government policies and the role of the president, reflecting on the American spirit, loyalty, and voting for the country's best interests.
8. Government inefficiency and private sector contrast: The conversation highlights the inefficiency, cost, and lack of quality control within the government, emphasizing the private sector's comparative effectiveness and economic approach.
9. Market forces and government regulation: The hosts discuss market forces, investment protection, and unintended consequences that result from government regulations, drawing examples from air travel safety and wildlife control.
10. Historical parallels and personal anecdotes: Various historical references and personal stories are integrated into the discussion, connecting them to contemporary political and socioeconomic themes, and fostering deeper engagement with the audience.
Time stamps
(00:28) March 31 is the deadline for your corporate returns
(03:15) Charles Lindbergh was rejected for active duty in 1942
(07:43) You can disagree with the government and still love the country
(17:17) COTA bought out private bus company that ran transit here in Columbus
(22:36) Thomas Sowell writes about mass transit
(31:03) Ohio launched two programs aimed at helping people buy homes
(37:37) JD Vance is absolutely out of his mind on this ISP $7 billion giveaway
(42:54) What you're doing is incentivizing people to buy a house they can't afford
(45:04) Biden announced a new student debt forgiveness program yesterday
(53:00) The Ohio House has overturned Governor DeWine's transgender veto
#government #Policy #personalfinance #Retirement #Housing #collegeeducation #ohiopolitics #Transportation
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy®, is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Copyright 2025 Common Sense Ohio
Transcripts
Alright. Here we are. January 12th, Common Sense Ohio bringing common sense from Ohio to the world. Much needed common sense, I might add. We are here with the usual crew on video, if you haven't figured that out yet. And if you haven't figured that out yet, it's easy. Just go to commonsense ohio show.com, where you can check out all our past episodes, get links, and do whatever you do. Or you can go to YouTube, Facebook, or any anywhere.
Steve Palmer [:I don't even know where it is because it's so ubiquitous. It's everywhere. Anyway, brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting and those who were, finalized have finalized their year end accounting last year are now staring another deadline in the face that is the March deadline for your corporate returns and, you know, the show must go on. It always starts over. The government always always always is reaching for your pocket. As soon as you've rejected OneReach, the other hand is coming at you for the other pocket. There is no safe harbor, another tax term. So HarborPlus Accounting, you know, they do my books.
Steve Palmer [:They can do yours too. It's not just getting your tax returns done. Although, they are launching a new, program for the more transactional folks. So if you need that kind of help, they'll do it too, better than the competitors.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And, if you got a business or a small business or a little bit more complex with some trust and other things, and they they can be your accountant for that. So we, are at the new year. We did not talk about New Year's resolutions here at the tables guys or here at the table guys, but it is about that time when you've set your New Year's resolution and you've already forgotten about them, they've sloughed off, and now you're eating carbs again or your your, you know, you you've skipped the gym a couple times.
Brett Johnson [:12 days in
Norm Murdock [:and having to screwed it up. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. They I don't know what they said. The it's always they say. It takes about 2 weeks to start to have it. Well, it takes a lot longer than that for me folks. But, I'm sure you're at the gym listening while you're on the treadmill or on the Stairmaster or pumping iron. Right now, you can catch your commonsense ohio show.com, there, and like and share. So, you know, every every week, we do our World War 2 fact of the day.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, Brett and I, you were talking you and I were talking while we were waiting on Norm. See what I did there, Norm? We got here. And, you know, it's it's amazing to me how much history, not only instructs what's going on now, but repeats itself.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, Yeah. Totally. And there
Steve Palmer [:we were we we got started talking, about the fact, you know, you made an I don't know if it was on there last week, Norm. You made an interesting comment, like, The world's at war here. You know, it's not just a cold war, it's a hot war. Like, there there's conflict flaring up all over the place, and Brett started to talk about how, you know, what's going on in the Suez Canal and how we're, now Tesla, I guess, is Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Tesla shutting down for a couple weeks because they gotta find a different route to send stuff because they're not they're not shipping anything over the Red Sea.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Done. And, you know, I
Steve Palmer [:it made me think, like, why we talked about this a lot on your line, like, why is this happening? It's because America's weak, right now. We're not we're not flexing our muscle in the world, not to dominate or be authoritarian or to make sure that we control everything, but to make sure that freedom still reigns around the world, and the shipping lanes can be open, the trading routes are open, and our allies can share with us, and we can share with them, and the good people in the world can function. And, you know, people real people lose sight of what happens when America sort of tucks its head into the shell and and becomes isolationist or worse yet is it is now weak. It got me thinking about isolationism. I don't remember every single date in World War 2, spoiler alert. So I looked it up. Right? I Google this day in world war 2. So it's I'm no I'm no genius.
Steve Palmer [:Right? I'm just looking it up. And I I some of the stories I almost skip over, and this one I almost skipped over until I had this conversation with Brett. Charles Lindbergh, it turns out, was rejected, admittance into the army on this date in 1942. And why Pray tell? He was an American hero, but I guess he had a history of American isolationism and making speeches for America to stay out. And, so it it was enough where Roosevelt said no. So, you know, following here's the here's the article. This one is simply Wikipedia, but, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and German declaration of war against the US. Lindbergh avidly supported the American war effort, but was rejected for active duty as Roosevelt refused to restore his Air Corps, colonel commission.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, he was he took a very isolationist attitude. And I think America, we've talked about this too on the show or before, during, and after, we just have this sort of attitude to stay out of the world and, you know, you know, we're fine here in Kansas doing our thing, or we're fine, just minding our own Ps and Qs, and we forget that if if we don't fill the void or we don't fill the vacuum, something else will. It's like when I, when I deal with cases, media cases, I always tell my clients, like, look, I can keep quiet here, but this is a newsworthy story and something is gonna fill up the news. It's it's sucking in the vacuum right now, and, we we should supply at least some message that favors us. The world is like that. When America is quiet and weak and not part of the conversation, bad actors take over. Anyway, that's my so in 1942, Lindbergh could not be a commissioned officer in the army.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And, I mean, think about that, though. Like, he was, like, our best pilot ever. Yeah. At the time. Right? So pioneering and, you know
Norm Murdock [:He had the last laugh, though. So I'll tell you a little Lindbergh story. It's not apocryphal. It's Been confirmed by, Army Air Corps pilots. So FDR did not, as you say, You know, did not bring him back into the, army for political reasons. That's what it was. He was very critical of, Lendly's and all these, things FDR was doing leading up to the war. Sure.
Steve Palmer [:It had it had more to do with isle more it had more to more than just isolation isolationism.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Criticizing the New Deal and such.
Norm Murdock [:It's just like, you know, FDR didn't like, papa Joe Kennedy For what he was doing when he was ambassador to England, he was very negative on, assisting England, believe it or not. So At any rate, all this before Pearl Harbor, but Lindbergh got the last laugh on FDR because He did go out in you know, just like Mickey Rooney and
Steve Palmer [:Yep.
Norm Murdock [:You know, all the all the Hollywood kind of people that would do, CSO tours. He he went out, spoke to the troops. He visited various bases, and Out in the Pacific, one of the, units he visited said, hell, yeah. You can go up in one of our fighter planes.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:He did. He went on a mission, and he shot a Japanese plane down.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Instead, he flew 50 combat mission missions in the Pacific theater as a civilian consultant.
Norm Murdock [:With the big middle finger to FDR.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Doing it anyway. Right? Did it anyway. Right. Right.
Norm Murdock [:And that's the American spirit right there telling the government to go f itself.
Steve Palmer [:You bet.
Norm Murdock [:And do what the hell Yeah. You are, you know, you're a a child of God. You can live out your life the way that you want to, And the little puny man up there at, 1600 Pennsylvania, whether it's, Joe Biden or Donald Trump or FDR, Hey. They don't really control you unless you let them control you.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just to to there's a speech out there, his Lindbergh's speech, and I'll I'll just quote part of it, and he says, we have weakened ourselves for many months and still worse. We have divided our own people by dabbling in Europe's wars. We should have been concentrating on American defense. We have been forced to argue over foreign quarrels. You know? So he's really what I think you're right. Great point, Norm.
Steve Palmer [:He's really doing, throwing daggers at Roosevelt Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Just disagrees with him on a policy. Yeah. But once the war started, you know, like a patriotic American, he was on board. I mean
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's another great point. Right? So another thought that you can disagree with the government and still love the country. Alright? So imagine that.
Norm Murdock [:Wow. That's a that's A heavy thing.
Steve Palmer [:Right? That. It's like just because you disagree with the country on some sort of policy doesn't mean that you should hate it and flush it down the toilet in the rest of the world.
Norm Murdock [:We pledge allegiance to our country, not to our government.
Steve Palmer [:To our flag. Right?
Norm Murdock [:And and well, but the flag being a symbol of the country. Mhmm. So we I've I've never viewed myself as A person who has to be loyal to the government. I have to be loyal to my fellow citizens into my country. Yep. But the government changes. Every every so many years, we have an election. It's a different government, different bureaucrats, different president, different congressman.
Norm Murdock [:I'm not pledging allegiance to the government.
Steve Palmer [:No. Of course not. Unlike But but most people think
Norm Murdock [:that that you know, most people think, like, we got our rights In the constitution. Oh, thank you, government. Thank you for giving me no. That's not how it works.
Steve Palmer [:Which is, you know, again, relevant history to this day. Right? We have an election coming up with 2 unpopular or and or popular people, depending where you're at. But, look, Trump has not been a universally popular guy, and nor is Biden. Now people ask me all the time, how can you possibly justify voting for Trump? You know, he's such this horrible person, blah blah blah blah blah. And I can say, well, look, I I'm I'm voting for the country here. You know? I I like the I I can't stand the policies on the other side, so I'm gonna vote against those policies. I'm not voting, to support, like, personally some man Right. Or some individual who's gonna be, like, the king of our country.
Steve Palmer [:It's not like his majesty. This is the freaking president, folks. And and if you read the constitution, he really shouldn't have much power. Yep. Right? They shouldn't be doing what they do. They should not be just signing orders. And, you know, Ben Shapiro, I I he he had a a piece on the Daily Wire that I read about Congress, and he just lambasted Congress for being this sort of lame body that does nothing but banter around and show off and and and make headlines. And they're not doing their job.
Steve Palmer [:Instead, the president is writing executive orders and and passing laws, quote, laws Yeah. Through executive edict using the administrative state. And this is what makes Trump unpopular. Right? I mean, that he comes in and says, I'm gonna drain the administrative state.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And drain the swamp, so to speak, and get rid of all these buzzers. And it's what, what what, who's who just got elected, down in a nonsocialist down in South America. I'm drawing a total blank.
Norm Murdock [:Oh. But but
Steve Palmer [:he went in and just started just cutting out
Norm Murdock [:all In ar Argentina?
Steve Palmer [:This is Argentina. No. It's awesome. He just comes in and just starts he's got this Or
Norm Murdock [:said Brazil, but I know who you mean. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:He might be Brazil. He's got this big haircut. He's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's just coming in, like, using his pen and just, slicing out huge chunks of the administrative state of government.
Norm Murdock [:Well, like Vivek has said, you know, who who, By the way, it wasn't at the debate because he doesn't have enough support, but, the the guy from Ohio went to St. X High School, Lives in upper Arlington here in Columbus running for president Vivek Ramaswami. He has said he would cut the government in half. Yeah. He he would discharge half of the federal employees.
Steve Palmer [:And I would pause it. This is like a John Grisham novel or a Clancy novel. That that is, like I I would say there's enough incentive on the other side of that financially and from a power standpoint that makes them a target for assassination. I mean, I literally believe that.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, almost.
Steve Palmer [:If somebody came in and said, I'm gonna cut the administrative government.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's like
Norm Murdock [:Right? It's a threat.
Brett Johnson [:It's
Steve Palmer [:like the Pelican Brief, man.
Norm Murdock [:You know? It's like serious threat.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Is a big threat to the power and money
Norm Murdock [:structure. Establishment. Yep. Yeah. 100%.
Steve Palmer [:And I think in in large part, that's that was Trump's big enemy too.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So DeSantis has said something akin to that. His idea is not only to cut the cut the the waste, but also To trim government, but also to decentralize it.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:So he wants to move the FBI, for example, out of DC. I mean, he he wants to actually relocate out of DC to to major centers like, what, Seattle, Indianapolis, Columbus, whatever. You know, Atlanta. Spread the government around. Get you know, rather which wouldn't matter anymore. Right? Because everything's electronic anyway.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I mean, all that would do is just cost.
Brett Johnson [:That's what came to my mind too. It's like, well, at what at what cost Okay.
Steve Palmer [:How many private flights are gonna be had around the country because of that?
Brett Johnson [:But It's an interesting thought.
Norm Murdock [:Well, Thomas Jefferson is is quoted as saying, if if all the power is located physically in one area, eventually, it will become tyrannical, and we're there.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. No. For sure. No.
Norm Murdock [:I don't know. When when the head of the FBI can just walk down the street, knock on the door of the speaker of the house, And they can do their little hubbub hubbub.
Steve Palmer [:Or worse yet, the people who know the speaker that do this and this and this for somebody else, like favors happening behind behind behind behind.
Norm Murdock [:They only put those favors
Brett Johnson [:it gonna happen over Zoom or whatever? You
Steve Palmer [:right. So the question is what what's the value add to do that? Right. Would how much would it help?
Brett Johnson [:Stop the communication flow. Oh.
Steve Palmer [:No. It doesn't do that.
Brett Johnson [:It does anymore now in the technology.
Norm Murdock [:Deeply affects the culture, though.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. It would break up culture. You're Probably correct. Yes.
Norm Murdock [:The growth the the biggest growth during the subprime crisis, the only area of America That was adding jobs was Washington DC metro. That it was the growth center during during COVID, during subprime.
Steve Palmer [:Well, did you see I don't remember the numbers, but I I read somewhere, somebody published the numbers on new jobs that were added in, under Biden, and I think it was, like, 90% government jobs. Yeah. And it's not that that it's not that those jobs were empty. They were added.
Norm Murdock [:Also, guys, think of the cultural,
Steve Palmer [:or they would screw up that beautiful Well, let's part of the country.
Norm Murdock [:Well, let's just think about this a for a little bit. The kind of people that live in Missoula that will be doing the secretarial, the data entry Fair enough.
Brett Johnson [:Right?
Steve Palmer [:They're they're gonna be less inclined to the Washington corruption Exactly. At the lower levels. Yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Right. And it would be it would
Steve Palmer [:be an
Norm Murdock [:interesting that's
Steve Palmer [:got some interest.
Brett Johnson [:It it would be an interesting petri dish look of, like, how fast does it get?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. Right. So end.
Steve Palmer [:You know, it'll corrupt. It just it it's like a do over, and then it'll slowly creep back in. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Well, I want I want a term
Brett Johnson [:of 4 years, probably. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I wanna see all the Suits at the, whatever, the department of health and human services. I wanna see all those guys put on cowboy boots and live in Denver
Steve Palmer [:or whatever. Right? No. I mean, they they're not gonna have fancy restaurants and their, you know, their $500 lunches.
Norm Murdock [:Or Columbus, a cow town. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I I would have wanna move there. You know? Okay. Fine. Yeah. Don't move here.
Steve Palmer [:We will fill up
Norm Murdock [:We will we will watch you. Please god, don't move here and and will now
Steve Palmer [:they would. Sooner or later, they would. Sooner or
Norm Murdock [:later, they would.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And they'd start bring just like Intel's doing. I mean, they'll start bringing their people in.
Brett Johnson [:Imagine the backlash or mentally All all these intel people going, Columbus? You're asking us to move to Columbus.
Norm Murdock [:Except that's what I want them to think. India.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that that's what I that's what I want them to think because we well, we used to have a really cool town.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's slowly turning to crap, but we used to have a really cool town. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We are After Cincinnati and, believe it or not, Buffalo, New York, it just came out. The the Realtor Association said the 3rd hottest market is Columbus.
Brett Johnson [:I don't understand that due to the
Norm Murdock [:lack of housing that we have.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's what makes it hot.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Oh Yeah. What I think is
Steve Palmer [:the annualized. Yeah. They the housing market's booming because there's no supply.
Norm Murdock [:They said
Steve Palmer [:11% what they're saying. I I don't buy that there's no supply.
Norm Murdock [:11% increase in the Cost of housing here. Yeah. So on the Buffalo Buffalo was number 1. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I saw that. So on on on one
Norm Murdock [:hand, they celebrate inflation of housing prices. Right? Mhmm. But on on the other hand, they have all the which we'll get into. Ohio has all these giveaway programs Yeah. For people to get into a house, And we'll talk about that.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Well, I was looking at the commercial market in Columbus, and, you know, there's grants out there that'll let you take down buildings like the one we're in. Yeah. And they'll pay 1,000,000, a couple million just to take it down and and and backfill it with, floors of residential, you know, like a single Mhmm. Studio type of apartments.
Brett Johnson [:And Yep.
Steve Palmer [:You know, so do we really have a housing crisis? I I wonder, and I am I am totally, totally asking. I I I have no thought, but I have a I I wonder if we really have a crisis or there's an agenda to get people into the city and stacked on top of each other in, small housing instead of, like, in the suburb like, instead of the sprawl.
Norm Murdock [:And and walking across the street Today to come into the building Yep. I saw the mass transit bus go by. Now this is rush hour. One person.
Steve Palmer [:See, Brett, Norm loves the buses.
Norm Murdock [:We replaced we replaced a single car on the road with a diesel bus. Alright?
Steve Palmer [:Right. That's empty.
Norm Murdock [:So let's stick the flag at, you know, top of the hill and declare victory. Yay, mass transit.
Steve Palmer [:Right. You took
Norm Murdock [:You took a Prius off the road and put a freaking gillig bus.
Steve Palmer [:Because you educated me on this. They didn't do that with, like, earmarked money that the taxpayers voted for. They did it with, like, fix the road money.
Norm Murdock [:And they well, yes. And also a special code of tax, Right. Yeah. On on, each gallon of gasoline that you're buying through.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Nice. Nice.
Brett Johnson [:I I would I would you know, to revise that, I would have no issue if they just do the short bus mindset. Just shorten those buses up. If you make a cheaper person in it
Steve Palmer [:At least make them cheaper.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. I mean You
Steve Palmer [:know what?
Norm Murdock [:I mean, you have to have this.
Steve Palmer [:It's like buses on campus make more accessible. If students don't have transportation, they can hop on the little shuttle and go all over the place.
Norm Murdock [:I'd like good solutions to all of this. Yeah. Yeah. If mass transit makes sense, if there's a business case for mass so before there was a COTA, What did COTA do to get in business? They bought out the private bus company that ran transit here in Columbus. Yep. COTA purchased Their fleet, and then it became a public enterprise. Just like the TSA people used to all be private people, And then 911 happens. Right? President Bush makes them federal employees overnight.
Norm Murdock [:That's what we did to transit. We did that in New York with the subway system. That was private. Yep. That wasn't owned by the city of New York or the county. That was all private. So what happened is the government decided to get into what hitherto was private sector. And that's why we have buses running with 1 person because there's no incentive for somebody to be efficient, to design a route where there really is need in order for people to actually pay to ride the bus.
Norm Murdock [:Right? Because
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:It would sustain itself. Instead, it's
Steve Palmer [:just a taxpayer debacle. We had a debate down here. This this this sorta hit me personally at the time or at least in my business pocketbook. We had a debate down here. There's a fundraiser that that, rented the studio. And, by the way, I didn't care. I was more than happy to give the other side of the political aisle the platform to, run a fundraiser, do whatever. I didn't care.
Norm Murdock [:Time. I'm not a silencer of of opposition.
Steve Palmer [:And that's what this was. This is a fun thing.
Norm Murdock [:Flow, man. I'm Ready to go into combat with them.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. That well, that's what happened. So I come down, and I'm sitting over where our producer there, Dan, is sitting. And I was running the show, and they had it was all on video and Zoom, And they had all these people on. It was like the Hollywood squares on the TV and everything. And, you know, they were all proud of their platforms and their policies and whatever, and then they got done. And they looked at me, and they're all they're looking at me, like, see? See, you were right. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And then what'd you think? And I said, yeah. You got a bunch of communist. I know what's going on here. And they just looked at they were blown away. And so we got into this big debate. Say what you are. One of them worked at.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, there you go.
Steve Palmer [:And he was championing, raising wages, minimum wage, and and government control over how much I pay my employees.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And it was, like, fighting like, This is big debate. And my I was taking the position you guys might think I would take, like, let the market bear. You know, if the market says it's 25, then I'll pay 25. If it says it's 10, I'll pay 10. Right. And then he said, well, you, you know, you should be blah blah blah blah blah. And I said and it's inter I said, well, look. Well, that's interesting because during COVID, it was right in the heart of COVID.
Steve Palmer [:I said, I haven't had a paycheck in over a year. And he he got real silent. Because I said, well, look, what if I can't afford to pay those people? Because we need to take home less of the business. I said, yeah, but I haven't been paid in a year. How do you answer that 1, mister Coda?
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And there's, like, this death silence over the room. And I said, no. Really. I have not been paid. All like, we small business owners who were impacted, not all of them, but a lot of us were impacted directly by COVID. Right. And we just had to ride it out.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:How was I supposed to pay? And and he just looked at me. And now now you brought this up and made me think of it because code is empty, yet he had a job all through COVID all through COVID making good money, prevailing wage probably.
Norm Murdock [:They're just driving empty buses around or almost empty buses around.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And, know? And nobody and you're telling me during COVID, people were bus riding?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. No. To where?
Steve Palmer [:We shut down. Shoulda shut down.
Norm Murdock [:So the Heartland Institute, who I used to I used to cooperate with when I was doing mass transit, grants into efficiency, into marketplace solutions For mass transit Mhmm. Where, let's say, COTA, has new service maybe running from Polaris To downtown, for example, before Polaris was a thing, they would then look at a development like that. I'm sure they're looking at intel like that Where okay. We're gonna expand. We're gonna add a route. Okay? There was federal legislation that required when any mass transit is expanding, They have to do a cost benefit analysis of contracting out versus running it themselves. Well, of course, they all decide to run it themselves. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Because they can do it better.
Norm Murdock [:Right? But they don't run the numbers right. They don't they don't do they don't view account like, let's get Glenn Harper in here And talk about opportunity costs and all kinds
Steve Palmer [:of Right. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Right. All kinds of costs that they view as sunk that are not sunk costs, Etcetera, etcetera.
Steve Palmer [:Easy to spend somebody else's money.
Norm Murdock [:We did a study, and just in Washington DC, if you took what they spent Per client or per rider per year, it was $50,000, right, of Federal taxpayer money.
Steve Palmer [:You could buy them a car.
Norm Murdock [:Plus. Well, that was the point.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Back in the mid eighties. A Prius. Fifty on top of that.
Steve Palmer [:Like, one of their one of their darling battery cars. Right?
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:Back in the mid eighties, $50 would buy you a Cadillac.
Steve Palmer [:Of like Right? $50,000 at 9 one a 911 Porsche. Right? Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And just here here's the keys. There's your mass transit. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Wow.
Norm Murdock [:Done. Crazy. It's it's just insane what we spend.
Steve Palmer [:Thomas Sowell talks he tells a story. I don't know if it's a story, but if anybody hasn't read Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell, It's phenomenal. I mean, it's like economics for dummies. And
Norm Murdock [:and and he was I mean, god, he he what did he write? Like, Eighty books. They they
Steve Palmer [:they're still unbelievable. Still turning them out, I think. At any rate, he tells a story about bus transportation down south during Jim Crow era. So that was the era when It was against the the quote, against the law in certain cities, in certain places for black people to ride. They had to ride in the back of the bus, not the front of
Norm Murdock [:the bus. Rosa Parks.
Steve Palmer [:Rosa Parks. Right? Right. He tells a story. It's a a study of 2 cities. 1, where there is a private, public transportation or private bus line. The other words, public transportation, and the law, enforcing that or basically, in the private sector, that law was by and large not enforced. In the public sector, it was rigidly enforced. And when they dug into it and studied it, it's because it didn't make any economic sense, discrimination that is, because if the bus is full We don't care.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, they don't The bus is full.
Norm Murdock [:They can be green, purple. They're not
Steve Palmer [:gonna ride around with a half full bus Yeah. No. Right. Enforcing so if it's empty, they're gonna fill it up. If it's full, they're gonna fill it up. And it was because the dollar sort of, directed the business model.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And
Brett Johnson [:if and if the bus is dangerous, no one's going to ride it.
Steve Palmer [:No one's gonna ride it.
Brett Johnson [:If they get harassed on the bus, they're not going
Steve Palmer [:to ride it. Ride it. Right. So, you know, it's, as soon as the government put its hand in it, discrimination was rampant because the government's corrupt. There is no answer to it. The fine they didn't care. They're happy to spend your $50,000 a year norm, because they they would much rather have a segregated bus than save money.
Norm Murdock [:When when the escape, because it
Steve Palmer [:won't have money.
Norm Murdock [:When the escape door plug on your Alaskan Airlines, 7 737 MAX, when that pops off, Guess what? People won't fly that plane.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, there doesn't really need to be a government agency telling Boeing and telling the Alaska and airlines that they're gonna fix that problem because no one's gonna fly Sure. On those like So you can We we have all of this Bureaucracy and all of this business
Steve Palmer [:As if somehow the government gets it better. You know? It's like the Space Shuttle is running on, like, the at the time, my buddy was a a computer programmer right after right after college for him back in the nineties.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And he was living. He goes, you know, he was just laughing. He goes, you know, the Space Shuttle's running on, like, old, like, less power than a Microsoft 286 at the time, like the like the the super cheap
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:You know, very minimal computers. And and you wonder why that was. It's like, why not put the most state of the art stuff in there? And it's just because government you know, they you know, the inefficiency of it. You know, they've got contracts, so they're gonna fill it with this, and this is just how we
Norm Murdock [:do it. Government was so good. Why weren't they on the the 737 Max 9 has been out for a while. What where's where were all the government geniuses inspecting these planes if they're so smart? Right? Right. They're just as dumb as Boeing or as Alaskan Airlines.
Steve Palmer [:To think that the government's quality control is gonna be better than the private
Brett Johnson [:They just have a little bit stronger arm when something goes wrong.
Steve Palmer [:Well, then they can bang the gavel, and they can say, here, we're doing this. Look how safe we are.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, look at the Titanic. Right? Okay? That wasn't a government run cruise ship. Right? It sank. And guess what? The the people who owned White Star Lines, I'm sure they went back and did a really serious study of avoiding icebergs. Yeah. Right?
Steve Palmer [:It's never happened since.
Norm Murdock [:Because market forces Would I
Steve Palmer [:don't think anyway.
Norm Murdock [:Would encourage you to protect your investment.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And you could say well.
Norm Murdock [:Need, like, to tell you that you don't want your ship to sink.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. I think it was it was an interview for the FAA representative saying, you know, Air flight is the safer than crossing the street.
Steve Palmer [:Right. It's like, okay.
Brett Johnson [:Well, I don't know about that analogy.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know. That? But but I I It's not safer crossing the street, if your plane crashes. Right.
Brett Johnson [:And and granted plane crashes are minimal, but guess what? A plane crash happens, that company goes Out of business. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's done. Right. Or or
Brett Johnson [:I'm not gonna fly there.
Steve Palmer [:Is is there a number?
Brett Johnson [:For a while.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's interesting. It's Tom along these line, I know we're sort of way off where we usually go, but Thomas saw another story in, in basic economics talking about air flight. And, I think I probably told you guys a story before, but, he talks about it's early on in the book too, almost like a like an introduction type story where there was a a family riding in a plane, And they had a toddler, and the toddler was sitting on the mom's lap, and the plane crashed. And because the toddler is on the mom's lap and not buckled in, then, the toddler died. So, you know, congress, of course, is gonna get involved or the FAA is gonna get involved, and they're gonna pass the it wasn't congress. It was it was the the administrative life.
Norm Murdock [:Can save just One life.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. We're gonna save kids' lives, so we're gonna force. Every kid has to have a seat. That's great. So now they're all strapped in. They all got seats, and the number of deaths related, to travel, particularly with toddlers, went up. And you would say, why? Well, because it was too expensive for families to actually fly. Now they had to put their kids in cars and drive across the country, and there were more car crashes as a result of that, and more people died in car crashes.
Steve Palmer [:Right? And so but it didn't look as good. You know, that's not sexy to say that in the government political arena. So but the point is is that There's no study on the private sector on what's gonna happen with that. They just wanna look good for that particular occasion.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. This is
Steve Palmer [:why my buddy, my lawyer judge up in Delaware, any law named after somebody is almost invariably gonna be bad.
Norm Murdock [:So I think yesterday was the 15th anniversary of the miracle on the Hudson When Sully, the former F4 Phantom pilot in Vietnam, now an airline pilot, Landed that plane on the Hudson River Mhmm. With 0 deaths. Yep. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Great movie too. It's it's a good movie. Tom Watson,
Norm Murdock [:the movie. Did the FAA tried to do to him.
Steve Palmer [:They sent through here and also said who they had.
Norm Murdock [:It was Sully's fault because there can't be anything wrong with a plane Right. And nothing wrong with the air traffic controllers Who were telling him, hey, dude. Just keep on going to this, other airport in New Jersey. You'll be fine. Just keep flying that thing. It's always like, We're losing altitude. This thing's going down. It's full of goo geese goo or whatever.
Norm Murdock [:Shut down those engines, and he well, like, I can't make it. Well, they just do a leisurely, you know, u-turn and come back and land here. He's like I can't do it. Guys, I'm scraping buildings here. Right? And somehow it was his fault, right, that he landed in the river instead of on dry land.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You know? Because We had to protect not only the air traffic control system. Certainly, no federal employees made any mistakes Of
Steve Palmer [:course not. Right? You
Norm Murdock [:know, their suggestions were not out of control or crazy.
Steve Palmer [:Then it might have been a fluke. Who knows? But
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:But they weren't gonna they weren't gonna acknowledge any responsibility whatsoever. Right? And why would they? It's the federal government.
Norm Murdock [:And why aren't you out there absolutely decimating the geese at these airports? Well, we We don't wanna hurt the birds. I mean, you you you can't. You know, it's like, shooting deer in Ohio. Well, we can't do that to Bambi, You know, even though there's an an excess deer population.
Steve Palmer [:Well, this is the time of year where I eat deer tenderloin about once a week Yeah. Because I got plenty in the freezer. Yeah. So right. That's
Norm Murdock [:Right. But but try killing deer in a public park. It it's a big thing.
Steve Palmer [:You gotta get a separate tag. You can but it happens.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. It does.
Brett Johnson [:There's a meme that showed up recently on a Tom Hanks Comment that had all of the images of, you know, of all Tom Hanks movies. Rem it said, remind me never go on vacation with Tom Hanks.
Steve Palmer [:That's okay.
Brett Johnson [:All all the different movies he has that already
Steve Palmer [:Right. Disasters.
Brett Johnson [:The one where
Norm Murdock [:he's on the island by himself Exactly. Talking to a to
Steve Palmer [:many he was, he was fighting pirates on the It's one
Brett Johnson [:of those memes that make you laugh out loud
Steve Palmer [:going, yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You're right. I don't wanna go on vacation
Steve Palmer [:with Tom. Ship fighting pirates. Yeah. Whatever. That
Brett Johnson [:was Great movie too.
Steve Palmer [:I forget what that's called now.
Norm Murdock [:Saving Private Ryan.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's not really a well, I guess I guess. If you wanna consider d day travel Yeah. Or going to Europe.
Norm Murdock [:I mean I mean, the point of that movie was Because the the the you know, private Ryan was the last son in a family. Yeah. So general, for PR reasons, sends These guys out who who bunch of them get killed. Right? Right?
Steve Palmer [:To save 1. Right? To save 1 gun. Interesting moral story.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. It is. Yep. Well, I think we have to talk a little bit about some I I love this market solutions thing. So Ohio launched 2 things this past week That okay. Like like, they just it makes me come out of my chair and just wanna scream. So we we ostensibly have, Republicans running state government here in Ohio. We Republican House, Republican Senate, Republican governor, a Republican Supreme Court, and yet we launch this week a $150,000,000 program called Welcome Home and a 2nd program called Ohio Homebuyer Plus.
Norm Murdock [:And what these both are the first one, the 150,000,000, is a 100,000,000 Given to land banks that are controlled by cities, counties, townships, and nonprofits, it's just a grant. Like, Here's a 100,000,000. You go out and either build or buy or rehab single family occupant Homes. Right. How many those. Whatever.
Steve Palmer [:Like, how do you spell disaster? Right.
Norm Murdock [:And then they give them after they sell the home to the Homebuyer who has to meet a certain economic Right. 80% of, the
Steve Palmer [:the the
Norm Murdock [:median This
Steve Palmer [:is gonna be disastrous at all levels.
Norm Murdock [:They get a $50,000,000 tax credit right off the top of their tax returns, right, I got you. For these for these. Wow.
Steve Palmer [:I just did a focus group. We have a side hustle doing my practice, helping people prepare cases, and we did one involving the affordable housing problem in Hawaii. And it's just kinda nonsense. It it
Brett Johnson [:it just it just brought my mind is the Hawaii situation we talked to balance months ago. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It just creates corruption.
Norm Murdock [:A a thumbprint description of the 2nd program, Ohio Homebuyer Plus. This is for people who wanna save to buy a home. So governor DeWine and and and the state of Ohio will give them 2.6% extra On top of whatever the bank savings rate is currently, to build up a A bank account, a savings account in order to buy a home.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Who qualifies? Because I'm gonna buy a home next year.
Norm Murdock [:If you make less than a 125 $121,000 a year, you qualify for this program. The second thing it does
Brett Johnson [:Make less than a 121,000.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:That's a pretty big number. That's a
Norm Murdock [:big number. That's right. And that's the number.
Steve Palmer [:The And this is passed?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. This is in effect right now, and you can deduct $5,000 off of your gross, off your Ohio gross tax number on your tax return For any money you stick in that bank account. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So I get dollar for dollar tax deduction.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Brett Johnson [:Meanwhile For
Steve Palmer [:Ohio, not feds.
Norm Murdock [:Right. So so who's gonna pay for this? Right. Us. We are.
Brett Johnson [:Meanwhile, the price of homes and the price of buying a condo or renting an apartment Homes are skyrocketing. Stays high.
Steve Palmer [:They're gonna go up. They're gonna go up. They're gonna go up by the exact amount of these grants,
Brett Johnson [:if not more. Exactly. Right.
Norm Murdock [:And then on on top of this, something called the Ohio and I actually knew the guy. He retired, but I knew the guy that ran this agency. The Ohio Housing Finance Agency, they have had a program running since the subprime crisis for helping people with their down payment, and they will give you up to 5% of the purchase price of the house As a loan. And if you live in the house for 7 years, they will forgive that loan.
Steve Palmer [:What's the income threshold for that one?
Norm Murdock [:Income threshold for that, I do not have. Oh, that is the one for a 121,000. Alright.
Steve Palmer [:So if you make a $121,000 or less
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:You can get a free loan 5% of your down payment. Right. Is there a cost of the house? Is there I wonder if there's a house
Norm Murdock [:It's 5% of the cost of the house.
Steve Palmer [:But is there is there a is there a
Norm Murdock [:sealing on
Steve Palmer [:how big a house
Norm Murdock [:you can buy. I'm sure there's a cap.
Steve Palmer [:So if I wanna buy a $1,000,000 house, can I get 5%?
Brett Johnson [:Just gonna see if you're pulling it
Norm Murdock [:on a 1000000 is a cap, Steve. I obviously, I don't have all of the regulations.
Steve Palmer [:Supposed to have.
Norm Murdock [:Uh-huh. Well, the point is, I don't care if it's a $100,000 house or $1,000,000 house. Why are the tax so so all I can all I can say here is these are problems
Steve Palmer [:that don't work. And then make people pay more taxes.
Norm Murdock [:These are the problems that the market could address. Easily. Easily.
Steve Palmer [:So if housing that the government created.
Norm Murdock [:So if housing stock right now is too expensive, and people aren't selling their homes, right, because other people can't afford them. When that goes on long enough, what happens?
Steve Palmer [:That price goes down.
Norm Murdock [:The price goes down. Wow. Amazing.
Brett Johnson [:From what I'm hearing, all the development around Dublin Park or, you know, that new around the river there, That they put a ton of money into a new condo system. And and they were talking
Steve Palmer [:With grants, for sure.
Brett Johnson [:6 7 $600,000 for a little over a 1000 square feet. Okay. Right. So it's not selling. They built it. It it's you know, maybe you know, the the right percentage presold. Okay. But now it's sitting Empty.
Brett Johnson [:Empty. Guess what? This funds it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. These are these
Brett Johnson [:are the great ones. Go down, this stuff funds it, and they'll keep it the same stupid price at 5 $1,000 a month.
Norm Murdock [:And let me close the argument for you there, Brett, because this legislation on the 150,000,000 for this grant, Guess what the grant deadline is? 1 month from now. So do you think this wasn't chalked up for specific people that were already gosh. Specific projects that were already in the pipeline. You have until February 9th this year.
Brett Johnson [:30 day window.
Norm Murdock [:Day window To get that 150,000,000. So you know you know this ball was teed up for specific specifics.
Steve Palmer [:In while waiting on deck. There's another book out there.
Norm Murdock [:That's rotten.
Steve Palmer [:Unbelievable. Back to good old Thomas Sowell. He wrote a book called Housing Boom and Bust, and it was about the 2008 debacle. He sort of takes it apart economically and and really assesses the blame and where it should go. And it really all goes back to bad government action. Just stupid government policies and practices created it. So I'm not gonna go into the details of it I could, but it's a longer conversation. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Check it out. The Housing Boom and Bust by Thomas Sowell. It's a real short one too. That's cool thing about it. A lot of his books are like these little thin ones that you can just buzz through, like, on an airplane ride or something.
Norm Murdock [:Right. I'm gonna address. So one of the people on our, Facebook page, a guy from Indianapolis, is blowing us some crap because he thinks We're some kind of Republican spokespeople here. Okay?
Steve Palmer [:Norm's looking at the camera. So, dude, damn, this is going to you.
Norm Murdock [:Dude, listen to this. JD Vance, who I donated $500 to and whom I love, he's a great guy, is absolutely out of his mind on this ISP, $7,000,000,000 ISP giveaway program. This is another one where I don't I don't what kind of so we have a $43,000,000,000,000 debt, and we have Republicans and Democrats in the US Senate Proposing to give poor people, right, like they can't afford an ISP, which is, what, 40, $50 a month. They're gonna give them free Internet service under this legislation. You know?
Steve Palmer [:Like Right. Now all that's gonna do is raise the rate of Internet service for everybody else
Norm Murdock [:is right.
Steve Palmer [:It's like, JD. Is no free. Well, this is remember we talked to him,
Norm Murdock [:man. This this comes out of his experience Yes. As a poor child. Yes. He thinks the government Can fix it. Yeah. Can fix this kind
Steve Palmer [:of stuff. I asked him that very question. I was like, we're you know, like, a a true Like, my brand I mean, I mean, I would call it conservatism, but it's like I guess it is conservatism. It's like, we need to conserve that means less government to me. That means the government trying to meddle in things. It's not that I don't appreciate the cause. I do. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But the government sucks at implementing stuff like this.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And it looks at it one dimensionally. This is the ride in the back of the bus situation. You know, it it's like fixing this little tiny thing or at least you think you are, and that's ineffective, but then you're opening up polls in the dike all over in all other places. Yeah. It's like it's it's a very short sighted political solution.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And if I had any disagreement with him when we were interviewing him, it was that. I was like, He's he sort of wants the government to interact and get involved more than all.
Norm Murdock [:You know, like a lot of those establishments. School regardless. Now where JD is different is on things like, you know, shutting down the border and like, he's great on on 90%, but he has this he has this thing like you're talking about where
Steve Palmer [:He thinks the government can fix it.
Norm Murdock [:He can't fix that.
Steve Palmer [:He can't fix it.
Norm Murdock [:It's like, dude, just let the market work.
Steve Palmer [:But to his, I guess, to his defense, to get elected. These guys have to go bound the hang bang the table and talk about, yeah. I'm gonna do this when I get elected. I'm gonna do this when I get elected. Here's what I did.
Norm Murdock [:Here's what
Steve Palmer [:I tried to do.
Norm Murdock [:JD puts out Press releases that I get. I I get probably 5 or 6 a week from his office Mhmm. Decrying the national debt, And then you propose something like now I know it's only only $7,000,000,000.
Brett Johnson [:Where
Steve Palmer [:and not add up.
Norm Murdock [:This is where it all adds up, man. Right. This is This is the shit. This is this is how it happens.
Steve Palmer [:Right? Who's ever done a personal budget at home, like your monthly budget, and you actually write down everything you spend, you know what the big things are already. Like, you know what your mortgage is. You know what your car payment is if you have 1. Yeah. You know what the college tuition check is for your kid. Yeah. But it's the little stuff. It's like the stop at the convenience store on the way home or
Norm Murdock [:The Starbucks coffee.
Steve Palmer [:Starbucks coffee.
Brett Johnson [:To listen to Spotify without the ads.
Steve Palmer [:Listen to Spotify Smoking the cigarettes. What
Brett Johnson [:that This. This is what this is.
Norm Murdock [:This is what this
Steve Palmer [:That adds up to about a third of a budget, I bet.
Norm Murdock [:And what drives that? It's it's because if you don't have Big brother showering money on you. You have to live within your means.
Steve Palmer [:Yes. Yes.
Norm Murdock [:Right?
Steve Palmer [:So as I always say, the hardest place to look for any solution to any problem is the mirror.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That's the hardest place to look for. In the mirror.
Steve Palmer [:That's the hardest place to look for a solution, but it's almost always there.
Norm Murdock [:And so and so when you add little when you add incentives, the I this is a terrible way to say this. But when you add incentives to stay either unemployed or stay in the underclass and then work a cash You know, like, work work in the black market.
Steve Palmer [:This is the great society.
Norm Murdock [:This is what's driving everything underground. Success.
Steve Palmer [:You know? So now success is defined, like, I have to not only make more money, I have to make more money than what I would be getting for free. Because I have to, like, as soon as you bust through the threshold where you qualify for this
Norm Murdock [:Right. Now or the free house down payment. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Now you're taking
Norm Murdock [:a step back. Other stuff.
Steve Palmer [:Now you're taking a step back.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So I'm already thinking, like, alright. So a 121,000. I wonder if that applies to married filed separately.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Right? So now you get 1 spouse who earn 16. The other is 300,000 or 500,000.
Norm Murdock [:But then you have a question. Should not be doing that. We should be looking to ourselves. If you didn't have all of these programs like mass transit and Welcome Home Ohio and Obama Phones and JD Vance's ISP, If you didn't have all this stuff, our taxes would be lower, the the, you know, for the you Ohio and federal taxes, And people would be incentivized to be more successful themselves.
Steve Palmer [:Yep.
Norm Murdock [:Right? Instead, over 50% of the American public now pays no taxes. And they're just voting themselves more and more benefits at the trough, and there's fewer and fewer taxpayers to pay for this. It's untenable.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I I I was curious about what a $120,000 a year mortgage would get you. It's about a half $1,000,000 home.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And what you're And
Norm Murdock [:if you're
Brett Johnson [:if you're making a 120, you can get about a $470,000.
Steve Palmer [:The approve like, on a 30 or 6 approval?
Brett Johnson [:The the called the, this is mortgage.com website. Just a quick Google look. I was kinda curious. If you're making that kinda money, what kinda home could you get? Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It may not be prudent to spend that much money on a home, you would get a report on it.
Brett Johnson [:You could. You could
Norm Murdock [:get a
Brett Johnson [:And if you think about it, half a $1,000,000 home, you gotta put furniture in it. You gotta pay for the That I mean It's
Steve Palmer [:a great point because what you're doing is incentivizing people to buy a house they can't afford. I do. And it's not just the cost of the house. It's such a great point you just made there.
Norm Murdock [:We just went through a Subprime crisis.
Steve Palmer [:It's it's all you're doing is is is artificially incentivizing people to buy something they can't afford and and maintain because taxes like, Look. You the taxes on that home, I don't see any provision for that.
Brett Johnson [:Exact and that's gonna be 8 to $10,000 a year.
Steve Palmer [:You know what you gotta pay. Right. You gotta pay utilities.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You gotta pay for maintenance.
Norm Murdock [:You may have to pay for a a school system income tax
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. The levies
Norm Murdock [:on where that house is located.
Steve Palmer [:The levies. So It's like now, like, you're
Norm Murdock [:in addition to the levies. I'm talking about the income tax. Or the
Steve Palmer [:income tax. Right? So Yeah. Now you're just you're you're just putting people in a in a house they can't afford Yeah. And artificially.
Brett Johnson [:And living in an area that maybe they can't afford either.
Steve Palmer [:In an area that they
Norm Murdock [:can't afford.
Brett Johnson [:Hey. And I'm I'm a grant hey. I'm not gonna go into Olentangi school systems.
Steve Palmer [:Why would you?
Brett Johnson [:I'm not going to do it. I can't afford to live
Steve Palmer [:in that area, and I
Brett Johnson [:don't wanna live there.
Steve Palmer [:I'm moving out of the school system this the day my kids are done.
Norm Murdock [:Steve, you almost the first sentence of the show you started out with that we repeat our history. Yeah. And that's because human beings are dumb. And
Steve Palmer [:it's been about 20 years.
Norm Murdock [:It's been about 20 years since the subprime subprime crisis.
Steve Palmer [:Not not since it hits. Somewhat since the policy that started it Yeah. Where it was happening.
Norm Murdock [:Clinton and Obama. You know, basically Bush too. Yeah. We also basically guaranteed people that Yep. You know, we're gonna put you in a
Steve Palmer [:is a human right.
Norm Murdock [:The American dream is you're right. It's not an aspiration now. It's you're right.
Steve Palmer [:Which is so contrary to their to you. To the underlying Marxist ideals, which is no property ownership.
Norm Murdock [:But So the other thing that's going on is just yesterday, Biden's Department of Education announced a new student debt Forgiveness program.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, great.
Norm Murdock [:This was supposed to kick in in July, but Joe's down in the polls, and we gotta do something, right, to make him popular with that, Under 35 demographic that Trump now owns. So according to USA Today, hardly a Trump, news organ. So the details on this discharging student debt is if you borrowed under $12,000 And you've been making payments for 10 years. They're gonna wipe it any balance due, they're wiping it out.
Steve Palmer [:That's the proposal.
Norm Murdock [:Well, that's one aspect. They're also limiting payments regardless of how much you owe and for how long the debt is is, scheduled. They are gonna limit your maximum payment to 5%, not of your income, but of your discretionary income. Okay. However, that's calculated on a 10 not on a 10:40. I don't know. But they're gonna limit it to only 5% of your discretionary, And there'll be no in interest compounding anymore. The interest on your student loan will only be on the original amount and not compounded as you go.
Steve Palmer [:So what about all the people heretofore?
Norm Murdock [:Oh, we're all screwed. Yeah. I want a refund for everything I lent my sons.
Steve Palmer [:What is the, source of the status of this proposal?
Norm Murdock [:Biden just did it over the top of the Supreme Court By executive action.
Steve Palmer [:So this this is a pending executive order. Order.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, it's they've issued it.
Steve Palmer [:They're doing it. But it'll be challenged in in in stock?
Norm Murdock [:1 would think so because And the last one,
Brett Johnson [:guys. One aspect of it, the compound interest stuff, I'm I'm cool with.
Steve Palmer [:We don't
Brett Johnson [:we don't we don't have to necessarily do. The rest of the crap, though.
Steve Palmer [:Like compound it. Here here's why I'm not cool with it. Look. In theory, do I care? I like, in in theory, I agree with it. In practice, the lever of power that was exercised in order to make this happen
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Is completely unconstitutional. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Right. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Right. No.
Brett Johnson [:No. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You're you're correct. So, look, Let's
Brett Johnson [:look at this. Something has to survive of it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. If it I mean, let's look at the idea. Is the idea look. Am I a champion of of, getting rid Look. Here, I should say it this way. If student loans were so bad that the government has to now forgive them, why is the government still in the business of creating them?
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. Exactly. I just want to point out to Brett. So let's just take let's say I borrow $100,000, And the interest rate when I do that contract is, let's say, 5%. Okay? So I'm really borrowing a $105,000. Right. Right? And if I repay that over 20 years, it's not fair to the taxpayers That I only repay a $105,000 because they're holding the note for the next 19 years.
Steve Palmer [:Or the people that got private loans, they're not getting those. I mean They're
Norm Murdock [:not No. Their interest is being compounded. I mean, it's I mean, you enter into this as an adult. You make this contract for god's sakes.
Steve Palmer [:I look. I would love to say there's
Norm Murdock [:This is ex post facto. You are changing the terms of a loan after it already happened.
Brett Johnson [:Very true. Very true.
Norm Murdock [:No. No. No. It's Totally unfair. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But what you're saying, Brett, is, like, it sounds good. I mean, this is like, yeah, we would love this to be the case. On the other hand, how can you make it the case, and how's that how do you how do you talk about inequity? Like, how how do you how do you equalize that amongst all those people who either, a, didn't get loans, b, paid theirs off, or, c, don't aren't don't qualify for the
Brett Johnson [:pay for the comp
Steve Palmer [:and then d
Brett Johnson [:I'll pull back. Exactly. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Or d chose not to go to college To begin with, because they couldn't afford it do
Steve Palmer [:it. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And didn't wanna make this kind
Steve Palmer [:of a loan. Compounding interest sucks. So I would much rather see money if we're gonna spend any government money going to educating people not to get these effing loans Oh, yeah. In the 1st place.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Why like, all day long, every day, people are complaining about their student loans for 200, 300,000 dollars or $100,000. Why do you have them? Why did you pick the private school that cost that much?
Norm Murdock [:And why do schools have
Steve Palmer [:To go to like Ohio State. To get a degree that you don't get paid back for?
Norm Murdock [:And why do schools like Ohio State have hyperinflationary tuition increases.
Steve Palmer [:Of course. Of course. Because with the non forgivable loans.
Norm Murdock [:They're not they're not billing the student. The students don't give a rip. The universities don't give a rip. The government is paying for all of this.
Steve Palmer [:And there's a culture now that I have seen because my kid my oldest is in college, and there's this culture that it's just what you do. Yeah. You just get loans. And I had this conversation with my oldest. I was, like, dude, You've got you're working 2 jobs. He's work and he's doing the right thing. Right? He's working his nuts off, and he's he's collecting money and saving money.
Norm Murdock [:We had him here on the show.
Steve Palmer [:The bank, but he's doing his thing.
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:And, I was like, you know, to the extent you owe money, pay it now. Pay it. Right. And he's he's like, he we had this conversation.
Norm Murdock [:So it doesn't compound. That's a good point.
Steve Palmer [:Otherwise, it will compound.
Norm Murdock [:Mhmm. Yeah. Duh. Right? Right.
Steve Palmer [:So even if you do nothing else, students out there borrowing money with your summer jobs pay the interest.
Norm Murdock [:Your $15,000 Accord, otherwise, is gonna be a $50,000 Accord.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And if any advice as well too is you get a kid looking at college, Try to find a local college planner to help out
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You work with some.
Brett Johnson [:To to under you work
Steve Palmer [:with some.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. To understand how What is the end run? If you got a student if your kid wants to be an educator, a teacher, they shouldn't be going to a school that they're gonna have Six figure loan coming out of it. Because it's not needed. It's not needed. You're not gonna be able to pay off that loan. If you wanna be an educator, you're not gonna make a whole lot of money. But, Paul, follow your passion. Be that educator.
Brett Johnson [:Be a high school teacher. That's great. We need great high school teachers. But you can't be going to and I'm not gonna name any schools, but you can't be naming the schools. You're walking out with a 6 figure loan.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:You can't do it. There there are some really good schools. You don't have to do that. Find them.
Steve Palmer [:Programs. There's programs now. Like, look. If the government's involved in education, it it it may be on this level, it's they have public schools. Ohio State's a public school. Columbus State's a public school. So now you can go to Columbus State for a couple years and then transfer those credits directly in Ohio State. And if you're smart about it and you work during the summers and during the school year, you can get out almost debt free.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Go to a state go to states that oh, I wanna go to, you know, like, where I went to the College of Wooster, these quaint little campuses with liberal arts that, that are so neat and cool, and you get to feel like you're important, and they, You know, they they really, cuddle the kids these days, and, you know, it's awesome, and it costs $60,000 a year. Dumb.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Dumb. Modern buying, tennis,
Steve Palmer [:and Or maybe you get maybe you get grants so you're down to 30. Yeah. Dumb.
Brett Johnson [:I mean, they're fine. Legacy maybe. Yeah. You know? It's like Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:No. You're overpaying.
Steve Palmer [:If your parents can afford
Norm Murdock [:it overpaying.
Steve Palmer [:If your parents can afford it and the bill doesn't matter, well, then so be it. Go there.
Brett Johnson [:There are options to follow your passion because we need passionate people out there that are doing jobs that they Love. Don't don't follow
Steve Palmer [:the money trap. Yeah. You you're chasing the dollar instead of the passion. You're chasing the passion instead of the dollar, but don't
Norm Murdock [:Or chasing a husband instead of your Glasses or or whatever you're chasing. As well. Or chasing a football scholarship.
Steve Palmer [:Kicking the can down the road because you don't care about becoming an adult. So, look, the ROI on that doesn't work anymore. When I went to college, it worked. Yeah. Right? I could I could go to the College of Wooster for $10,000 or even less.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And I got out of that deck because I worked, and we had some tuition remission because my dad was a professor somewhere. So I I was lucky. Yeah. But, you know, in you know, I was able to get out clean.
Norm Murdock [:Mean, there you can also serve
Steve Palmer [:your country
Norm Murdock [:in in Ohio. If you serve in the National Guard, you can go to any Ohio college For free.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So go do that.
Norm Murdock [:So go serve your family.
Steve Palmer [:Friend of mine, the the exchequer did that. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:There you go. We've
Steve Palmer [:been on a third
Norm Murdock [:of the show. It's There are ways to deal with this.
Steve Palmer [:In the middle of College of Wooster, he went to the army, got the rest of his education paid for, and finished up. Right. Great. Found a way. Yeah. Didn't owe any money.
Norm Murdock [:And it served The rest of us. It wasn't just a giveaway. Yep. He was serving our country, which, in effect, is serving all of us. Yep. We need to talk about house bill 68 very briefly. So, you know, as you know, that was the no trans treatment for minors. Uh-huh.
Norm Murdock [:And bio women only in women's sports. Those were the 2 big
Steve Palmer [:There's been a development.
Norm Murdock [:There's been a development. The senate is probably gonna also overturn this Because it passed in the Senate. The the house overturned DeWine's veto. Governor DeWine vetoed that bill. He took a lot of heat even from the Lieutenant governor John Huston, Dave Yost, Trump called DeWine a stiff and said, I'm not gonna support that stiff anymore. So the Ohio House has already overridden the impeachment.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, no. The the veto.
Norm Murdock [:The the veto by, 3 fifths. Gotta have 3 fifths of of the, population of the house. The senate, which is 33 people, the senate passed The original legislation, 24 to 8, which means 3 fifths of that is only 20 votes.
Steve Palmer [:So they should have it.
Norm Murdock [:So senate, if they wanna override the veto, they can do that, in which case, DeWine
Steve Palmer [:Then he does something afterwards, though. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So what DeWine did almost within 24 hours of the veto. He took so much incoming fire. He said, oh, oh, Well, I'm gonna issue an executive, you know, like Biden does. I'm gonna issue an executive regulation that says you can do trans treatment except for surgeries. Mhmm. As if surgery is the only way that a Child is permanently affected
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:By these trans hormones and drugs.
Steve Palmer [:Is pyrrhic.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, tell that to the pituitary gland, You know?
Steve Palmer [:Or these drugs are not reversible. The the the party line on that that they're reversible. It's bullshit.
Norm Murdock [:It's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. So he came out with that, and and what that blows out of the water is this argument that he he tried to fig leaf that He did this to protect parents' rights. No. He did protect his financial goals. 24 hours later, you blew the parents' rights out of the water with the Surgery.
Steve Palmer [:What's interesting is, you know, we we sort of took this down a path like I like to do. I always look at, like, what's the lever of power being exercised by the government, and let's at least discuss that. I'd sort of try
Norm Murdock [:Oh, Absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:I I try to take if even if I agree with the issue Right. Or in whether I did when I disagree, it's easy. But when I agree with the issue, when I agree that we shouldn't have a, that we shouldn't let our kids get butchered. Right? I use that term on purpose.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Like, have their penises cut off
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Or their breast cut off.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:I agree. Now then the question is, should there be a law that says you can't do that? I mean, those are 2 different questions for me. And then I saw this headline, prison penalties for parents who refuse trans who refuse to trans their kids. Welcome to Scotland. So it's like in Scotland now, there's this discussion where there's penalties for for parents who don't do this. And this is what we were talking about. Like, alright. Would we like the lever to be exercised in the other direction.
Steve Palmer [:If the government has the power Right. To do this, then it could force your kids to do the same thing. You're letting the government into the family unit. Not saying I have a solution for it. Well It's just an interesting juxtaposition paradox.
Norm Murdock [:We're going down the Scotland Road. So this past week, The, Department of Health and Human Services is floating a new regulation. Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:This is what we said. Children services are coming in.
Norm Murdock [:Foster parents Will not be able to take in children if those foster parents don't want to, what's the word, Affirm the Right. Gender, expressed by the child.
Steve Palmer [:So so insane.
Norm Murdock [:Well, Wait a minute. You're coming into my house, and you're saying that you're 5 years old, and you're saying, no. I'm not a boy. I'm a girl, And I'm supposed to go along with your fantasy that you're a girl.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:And and I'm good. You are if
Brett Johnson [:you're getting paid to take care of them.
Steve Palmer [:Right? So you're not even gonna get on the list as a foster parent unless you agree to that. Get paid. Right? So. Yeah. No. No. No. What he's saying is No.
Steve Palmer [:What he's saying is they're incentivizing the the government doing this.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. Right? Jordan Peterson gets paid to be a professor. He doesn't have to go along with the fantasy.
Steve Palmer [:No. No. No. No. What Brett is saying is you're there there's an incentive baked in. The people are gonna collect their dollars and sign on this, and they're they're gonna they're gonna rather than fight this. They're gonna agree to it because they're getting paid.
Brett Johnson [:They're getting paid.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. And and if not, it's so they're gonna I agree. They should get paid. Foster look. If if if you're gonna volunteer to be a foster Oh, for sure. Parent, and there's a government program that support. But here's the thing.
Norm Murdock [:I don't think it's that much money.
Steve Palmer [:I like, no. But Here's the thing. The before the government got involved in this nonsense, the churches took care of it.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:The churches took care of it.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, all the all the other side of the lefties are gonna say, well, yeah, but that was a Catholic church, and they're so evil. They did all these bad things. Yeah. Right. They save lots and lots and lots of kids' lives. You know, what's the boys' town? You know? Go go go check it out. Sure.
Brett Johnson [:So, an average foster parent Makes $44,000 a year.
Steve Palmer [:For each kid, I wonder. That's that's not bad.
Norm Murdock [:That's is that per kid, or you said average income for a foster parent? Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:No. That's what they make.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. As because of their status as a foster kid.
Norm Murdock [:Per kid, or is that overall? They may have 3 options. 20 yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know. So it's 10, 50,000.
Norm Murdock [:Than I thought it would be.
Brett Johnson [:Actually, $21 an hour to take care
Steve Palmer [:of kids. If I I could not then, I wanted to donate my time. I would even do it for I'd waive it. There I can see a world where I would just want a foster kid to to to do something.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Good.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Big brother. Whatever.
Steve Palmer [:I couldn't do it now Yeah. Because I would never sign that.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. Right. Right.
Steve Palmer [:I wouldn't sign that in a 1000000 years.
Norm Murdock [:I'm not going along with somebody's fantasy.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. No. I used to joke with my kids all the time. Mike, Matthew would be like, I'd be like, you're a girl. He goes, no. I'm not. I'm a boy. I was like, no.
Steve Palmer [:You're a girl. And he's like, no. I'm a boy. But we used to joke about this stuff. But if he, like, if he ever seriously thought that he was a girl, you know, I there's no friend. Counseling. Like, absolutely. Or he just let it pass.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, sure. I'm Batman. I'm a dinosaur. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Let it pass.
Norm Murdock [:Right. I'm Scooby Doo.
Steve Palmer [:Let it pass. I mean, I was I was so many stupid. I did I thought and did so many stupid things in my childhood as we all did. Yeah. And if I were if that if my whims were engaged or entertained, then I would be I'd be I'd be in jail probably.
Norm Murdock [:Well, we all had boyhood friends that got up on the roof of their dad's garage in a Spider Man outfit, Right? And jumped off. I did it. Because you saw it work in the car.
Steve Palmer [:I did it. Unfortunately, I didn't jump off the high part. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Or bought that anvil from ACME and dropped? I'm 4.
Steve Palmer [:Right? Right. Whatever. Right.
Norm Murdock [:It's insane. So, hey, good. I hope they override, DeWine? And So I I wanna play
Brett Johnson [:a bigger picture on this, and I'm I'm giving DeWine a huge credit mental credit on this one. So so he vetoes. He knows both the house and senate are gonna override him. He comes out looking good for some people. That's funny. Care what Trump care says because he's done. And he so he sends out the executive order, gets kinda done what he wants to do. I mean, he doesn't have to put his pen to it.
Norm Murdock [:I don't know who he looks
Steve Palmer [:good to
Norm Murdock [:know. I don't know who he looks like.
Brett Johnson [:Doesn't matter to him now? It gives Houston a platform to come out and say something.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. No. Right.
Brett Johnson [:I don't think he's that smart, though. But if you look at it pull back and you look at it going, he knows he's gonna get vetoed on this. He knows it. So why not?
Steve Palmer [:Both sides. It's but that's playing with fire, man.
Brett Johnson [:I know it is. I don't think
Steve Palmer [:he's that smart.
Brett Johnson [:What what what But this is the this is the outcome I could've predicted. I'm not that smart.
Norm Murdock [:What undermines your argument is fact that he reflexively blew his own logic apart in 24 hours and said, you know what? I'm gonna ban surgery. Right after saying the day before, I'm standing up for parental rights.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:He's got a lot of that, though, going on. Full of crap. This bill took 3 years to come to fruition. He had a lot of time to negotiate with the house and the senate.
Steve Palmer [:He knew what was going on.
Brett Johnson [:Like, yeah. You know?
Steve Palmer [:No. Your your points are good. Right?
Norm Murdock [:It's bigger picture, but it's it's it's You may be right.
Steve Palmer [:So he he
Brett Johnson [:thought think he's that smart.
Steve Palmer [:He thinks I know.
Norm Murdock [:He is not a Skilled politician.
Brett Johnson [:No. He's gotten
Steve Palmer [:a lot more. Take much smarts to see this angle.
Norm Murdock [:He got COVID wrong. I mean figured out. We could do a list of Of
Steve Palmer [:But you got COVID money. I mean, wrong. Right. You
Norm Murdock [:got totally wrong.
Steve Palmer [:Right. You got COVID money. You got federal COVID money. It's not that he got it wrong. The the COVID We're
Brett Johnson [:still sitting on it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. The COVID purveyors picked him out as a test market to to do their bidding to shut down and and and
Norm Murdock [:So you weren't here for the show. But this was DeWine's this was his flyer to pass issue 1 with the the abortion issue. God. Right? Does that make you wanna vote to ban? Camera. Yep. We showed it to the camera in the other show, but, I mean, it's just
Steve Palmer [:That's horrible. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Right. 2 frowny people saying I'm against abortion.
Brett Johnson [:Grandma and grandpa don't like it, so you better not vote for it.
Norm Murdock [:He's an ineffective, lackluster Oh, look. They've got running Republican governor.
Steve Palmer [:Still waiting for a phone call.
Norm Murdock [:We had Kasich. I mean, think of the disastrous Republican governors we've had, Kasich, Bob Taft. I mean, it's just it's incredible I'm
Steve Palmer [:still waiting for my phone call.
Brett Johnson [:George Voinovich?
Steve Palmer [:Did you get your phone call? Because I'm waiting on mine.
Norm Murdock [:For what?
Steve Palmer [:Because when when And DeWine said he's doing this all for us. It's all in our best interest. I had people at this table saying, well, I just trust they have their best interest. I said, oh, that's You got your phone call from DeWine so he could figure out what your best interests are Right. Because he sure as heck has not called me to ask me what's my best interest.
Norm Murdock [:I just wanna be left alone. I wanna be taxed and meddled. I I want to bust my ass right now even though I get Social Security. I would give up Social Security. If they would let me out of the system and just give me back less what they've paid me, but just give me back what I put in. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:I if they wanna fix Social Security, they need to give people an opt out option.
Steve Palmer [:You bet.
Norm Murdock [:Right? I would take it. Because Congress Yeah. And the president aren't in Social Security. They have their
Steve Palmer [:own retirement. Anybody anybody who has, like, picked a mutual fund Yeah. And to invest. You always look at, like, what the ratio is. Like, what what what is the mutual fund? What's the management of the fund taking? And you wanna pick the the one with the least amount and the highest performance. Right? It's just a general rule of thumb. So think about the Social Security system. It's like, I wonder what that administrative cost is.
Steve Palmer [:Like, you you think I'm getting a good return on my Social Security investment over Right. It's like, am I gonna get 6% over 20 years or 7% or
Norm Murdock [:is it something lockbox, Steve, it's a whole lockbox.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Because I'm not responsible enough to invest it on my own. Yeah. Right. Right. Awesome.
Norm Murdock [:So market marketplace economics, That's what I'm all about. Not it's not Republican. Of the show. It's not Democrat. It's just common sense. Yeah. Let the market operate. Housing prices will come down when they need to come down.
Norm Murdock [:Incomes will go up if you tax people less, right, And incentivize them to work instead of laying on the sofa and getting COVID money and getting PPP money and getting all the other, You know, kinds of gifts from the government.
Steve Palmer [:And watching Netflix on your free Internet.
Norm Murdock [:So I had I had Right. I had to Google this. I had
Brett Johnson [:to Google this up in regards to what's the administrative cost of Social Security. I'm about to rate my I'm gonna push my eyeballs out. So the center on budget and policy priorities.
Steve Palmer [:Alright.
Brett Johnson [:Guess what they say is the percent of what what it costs. What do you think?
Steve Palmer [:Is this, is this a government?
Norm Murdock [:You mean, like, for every dollar you you get taxed
Brett Johnson [:I I was saying or contribute So
Norm Murdock [:I'll I'll I'll I'll how much is it I'll leave out the
Brett Johnson [:percentage. Administrative costs amount to only blank percent of annual benefits.
Steve Palmer [:Only blank. I would say it's probably 40 or 50% in reality?
Brett Johnson [:0.5%. Oh,
Steve Palmer [:come on, bro. Come on. So the Social Security Oh, give me a So in your in administrate I wonder how many people work. Way. Like, how many peep like, how many people work for your mutual fund company?
Brett Johnson [:Far it says far below the percentage of private retirement annuities. No way.
Steve Palmer [:Are tinkering with definitions.
Brett Johnson [:Oh my gosh. You bet
Steve Palmer [:they are. Private retirement annuity?
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. And who's it with and what and and what's the the the Like, annuity
Steve Palmer [:is not a great rate of return on your money, first of all. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Not usually.
Steve Palmer [:Now there might be a you might have a reason to want 1 anyway if you wanna stabilize yourself in some way, shape, or form. Sure. But annuity is not a great return on your money. I would still take a private annuity over Social Oh,
Norm Murdock [:yeah. Right. Oh, yeah. I'll make my own choices.
Steve Palmer [:Right. They noticed they left out, like, private investing, like mutual funds
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Or whatever. Whatever they wanna compare
Brett Johnson [:it to, that's what they look best against. I I that no. There's no way. There's no way. Come on.
Steve Palmer [:Nobody ever got rich in retirement using Social Security.
Norm Murdock [:That's swamp PR right there. Yeah. That is that's
Steve Palmer [:that's that's double speed. That that's that's Orwellian double speed.
Norm Murdock [:Because you've You've got all the presidential candidates to
Steve Palmer [:That's an unbelievable
Norm Murdock [:I know. Even You know, be be realistic. Even You don't have to lie that badly. All the presidential candidates, even Biden, are saying Social Security is gonna go broke. The the the the the, you know, the traces on the graph are gonna cross in about 10 years, paying out to the, You know, baby boom generation, right, with the Gen Zers.
Steve Palmer [:And I have said, stop at my generation. I don't care.
Norm Murdock [:I don't care.
Steve Palmer [:And the reason I say this is because I was sort of rear, and I think I'm a gen, what, a exer, eighties.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So I was born in 70. Yeah. So it's like, I always grew up thinking there's no way that there's gonna be any retirement for me Right. In Social Security. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Well, we were we were thrown that all the time.
Steve Palmer [:Yes. So I started throwing it. When I was 20.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Just figuring it's not gonna be
Steve Palmer [:a month.
Norm Murdock [:It won't be there.
Steve Palmer [:It won't be there. So $100 a month, they're just stuck into an account.
Norm Murdock [:Generation, I'm at the very end of the boomers. I really should be something different. The the boomer generation is defined. It's like two and a half decades. It's ridiculous.
Brett Johnson [:You have
Steve Palmer [:no identity, Norm. You're in between the boomers and the exers.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm an old Xer. Yeah. I'm an old Xer.
Steve Palmer [:So
Norm Murdock [:So, like, I should be an early Xer.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:But at any rate, we were all taught Social Security wasn't gonna be there.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So you started to plan ahead.
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely. Yes. My generation
Steve Palmer [:Store your wealth.
Norm Murdock [:Was told the same thing as yours. That just if you're relying on Social Security for your retirement, you're going to live a very poor Retirement.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. Never designed to live off of any way. Where that binocular came from, I don't know.
Steve Palmer [:Stupid. Right.
Brett Johnson [:But it never what it was a Supplement Right. To help out in the rough times.
Norm Murdock [:In the presidential debates, when people were asking questions, they all bribe Social Security as what they're going to retire on. And I'm like, holy god. Do you know how little money this is, lady? Like, I mean, It's like, you know, $1500 a month. Right.
Brett Johnson [:That's it. You do that
Steve Palmer [:as a grocery bill.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I mean, god.
Norm Murdock [:In our own age. Honestly. And you get taxed on it.
Steve Palmer [:Let alone a mortgage. Right? And you're paying tax, let alone a mortgage payment. I mean, like, how are you gonna live if you don't have your house paid off and or you got your rent? Yeah. It's like it's that's fixed income, folks.
Norm Murdock [:I heard today coming in that, who was it? It was it was a guy like Glenn harp Harper, you know, one of these experts on, private wealth, and he said based on, You know, how they have been tracking who is defined as rich. To to be qualified as a rich person today is 2,200,000 in personal Net worth. Wealth. Net worth.
Steve Palmer [:That's rich now.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. But, like, $1,000,000, if you retire at, say, 60 or 65 and all you have is $1,000,000.
Steve Palmer [:Say, sitting in a four zero one k or something?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You're you're not gonna be backsplashing
Steve Palmer [:The best case money. So a a realistic best case scenario is, like, 5% return on your money, so now you're getting a $100 a year. If it's a four zero one k or some sort of qualified money, now you're gonna so what's that? So you got about $10 less than $10 a month. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And if Do you think you're gonna retire to Miami, Florida on that? I'm sorry.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, no. No. If it's a if it's a if it's a1000000, you're getting, what, 50,000 a year? Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's not the big life.
Steve Palmer [:No. And it's taxed.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. Mhmm. Yep.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. That's why you got Social Security number. You gotta supplement it. You gotta supplement it. It's like my Social Security is like that's that's what
Norm Murdock [:Oh, it's a joke.
Steve Palmer [:It's like I I I calculate what I'm gonna get, and I'm just like, this can't be right.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It's it's it's it's another thing.
Steve Palmer [:Be right.
Norm Murdock [:It's like I wanna check the box. Just let me out of it. Just let you know? And I would have done it When I was in my twenties, I'll I'll do it today.
Steve Palmer [:I would have elected. There was talk of doing that back in the nineties. There was talk of saying you don't have to participate. Remember that? It was Clinton. I think it was the Clinton years that we
Norm Murdock [:But you know exactly what would have happened. The people who opted out and did not take care of themselves, we would end up supporting them anyway.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. But I don't care. I'd rather do that than
Brett Johnson [:Well, you You can opt out. Just work for the government or some government entity.
Norm Murdock [:Well or beyond welfare. Beyond beyond the dole. Like like, 50% of Americans are.
Steve Palmer [:Or find a way to get, different kinda income.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know? So if you find a way to get, some sort of investment income or whatever, you don't pay Social Security on that.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Alright. Anyway, it's awful.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Well, it looks like we're about at the end of our hour and change as we always I try to keep it in an hour. It's always an hour and change. Anyway, this has been Common Sense Ohio brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting. It's been another riveting episode, but if you missed this episode, and you're catching it after the fact, I don't know if that's even possible. I've got a time space continuum problem. But, anyway, if you missed any last episodes, this is really what I'm trying to say, you can go to common sense ohio show.com and check them out. And while you're there, go ahead and subscribe to the podcast.
Steve Palmer [:Everybody asked me, where do I find podcasts? Even people I do podcast with ask, Where is this? Well, it's in podcast world, folks. Go to Google Podcasts. Go to Apple Podcasts. Brett, where do they go?
Norm Murdock [:Anywhere. Go to
Steve Palmer [:your Spotify.
Brett Johnson [:To your phone, and, yeah, find
Norm Murdock [:find where you can play podcasts. Search function Yeah. Of of wherever you go to find podcasts like Spotify, there's there's a search function. Type in Common Sense Ohio show, and our shows will pop up.
Steve Palmer [:Lots of them.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And then just hit play. Hit play.
Steve Palmer [:Or you could go to our website, and they'll give you a little button. It's makes it easy. Commonsense ohio show dot com.
Norm Murdock [:Takes you to a menu, that Captivate menu, and and it and it gives you the platforms. Right. And you punch 1,
Brett Johnson [:find 1 favorite.
Steve Palmer [:And if you like it, write us a review. Share it with your neighbors. We're growing fast. We've got a Facebook guy who hates Norm, apparently, that Norm is replying to. I don't think he hates us.
Norm Murdock [:No. He's actually responding to other viewers that are that are agreeing with us, and then he's freaking out. Yeah. But I'm just saying, Hey, dude. And he specifically said, you know, you're a bunch of Republicans.
Steve Palmer [:For the Republicans.
Norm Murdock [:And all that.
Steve Palmer [:Far from it.
Norm Murdock [:Well, we have
Steve Palmer [:spent today's show. Today's show.
Norm Murdock [:We have Then basically the entire show's slamming the Ohio Republican Party.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. It's well Right. Now taken so there's 2 but there's 2 ways to look at it. You got the lesser of 2 evils. Right?
Norm Murdock [:That's all.
Steve Palmer [:So if I've gotta choose, and I hate the fact that I do, I'm choosing the Republicans because there's less of the stuff to hate.
Norm Murdock [:That's all. So lesser of the Eagles.
Steve Palmer [:There's less stuff to eat. So anyway
Norm Murdock [:Yep.
Steve Palmer [:Look. And and by the way, mister, whatever your name is, I I'm totally cool with it, man. Yeah. I love that you're engaged. Bring it. Bring it. And, if you got counterpoints that make sense to me and make common sense to me, I'm here, man. I I love it.
Steve Palmer [:I love discussions. I love to think. I love to discuss. I love to be wrong. I love to be right. It all makes sense to me. That's just
Brett Johnson [:that's just common sense.
Steve Palmer [:That's just common sense coming at you right from the middle each and every week at least until now.
