The central theme of this podcast episode revolves around the intricate relationship between historical events and the realms of fantasy literature. We delve into a compelling discussion with our esteemed guest, Armel, exploring how history serves as a fertile ground for the cultivation of myths and narratives that populate modern fantasy. The dialogue encompasses not only the fascinating intersections between historical accuracy and fictional storytelling but also the impact of those narratives on our understanding of both history and imagination. As we navigate through topics such as medieval myths, the influence of religion, and the evolution of storytelling, we aim to illuminate how these elements converge to enrich the fantasy genre. Join us as we unearth the layers that connect our past with the fantastical worlds we cherish today.

This episode of Rolling Into Fantasy marks a significant occasion as the hosts welcome Armel, a colleague with a shared passion for history and fantasy literature. The conversation begins with a candid acknowledgment of the time lapse since the previous episode, providing a backdrop for an engaging exploration of how historical narratives inform the fabric of imaginative storytelling. Armel's expertise in medieval history serves as a catalyst for discussions surrounding the intricate relationship between myth and reality, particularly how the transition from paganism to Christianity shaped narratives throughout the ages. The hosts and Armel delve into various historical events and figures, drawing parallels between the factual and the fictional, thereby enriching the listener's understanding of how fantasy literature often emerges from the crucible of history.

As the dialogue progresses, the trio examines the potential pitfalls of modern fantasy literature, particularly in relation to its historical foundations. The hosts express concern over the risk of losing sight of the historical context that informs contemporary narratives, raising important questions about the authenticity of storytelling in an age of increasing creative liberties. Armel counters this by emphasizing that fantasy literature has the power to reconnect individuals with their historical roots, highlighting how the imaginative reinterpretation of past events can inspire deeper inquiry into our shared heritage. This conversation serves not only as an exploration of literary themes but also as a reminder of the importance of understanding the past to fully appreciate the narratives we create today.

The episode reaches its conclusion with a reflection on the importance of storytelling as a means of bridging the gap between historical fact and creative imagination. The hosts and their guest encourage listeners to engage with both history and fantasy, positing that the two realms are not mutually exclusive but rather complementary facets of the human experience. This episode stands as a testament to the enduring allure of storytelling and its capacity to illuminate the complexities of our shared past, urging listeners to embark on their own journeys of exploration within the realms of history and fantasy.

Takeaways:

• The podcast episode delves into the intricate relationship between history and fantasy literature, emphasizing how historical events inspire mythological narratives.
• We explored the significance of medieval times as a particularly rich era for myth-making and storytelling in fantasy literature.
• Armel's insights highlighted the importance of understanding historical contexts when interpreting fantasy narratives and their underlying themes.
• The discussion also touched on the evolution of fantasy literature, urging listeners to recognize the connections to historical truths that inform contemporary works.

Sam.

So welcome to episode 18 of Rolling Into Fantasy.

And it's been quite a while.

We've had a longer break than we had anticipated to have.

Well, guess what?

Life happened, period.

I mean, that's it.

And we should stick actually to a monthly edition instead of a bi weekly, because we've hardly kept that promise of doing a bi weekly shot.

Anyway, we're here.

So episode 18 and this one marks a very special occasion.

We have a special guest.

I'll let him introduce himself.

But Armel is not only a colleague of mine, but we have a very good bond, and that is that we have mutual interests in not only history, but also in fiction, fantasy and anything that revolves around that.

And that's basically what we're going to talk about.

So we won't be talking specifically about a book we read or we should have read, but more that what drives somebody with a very good knowledge about what history can create as myths or other stories.

Religion, why not?

And how that connects to literature.

Why not?

So let's dive into it.

Armel, let's go.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Well, I listened to the other.

Well, uploads already.

That's very nice to listen to and very glad to be here with the two of you since, well, it's like you're listening to something and you think, I have to meet these people.

Oh, wait, I work with this guy.

Actually, it's fine.

It's not the biggest introduction.

I already have seen him a few times.

We kind of had these conversations, like every time that we see each other.

Exactly.

It's nice to do it on a podcast for a while.

Yeah, and.

Exactly.

And at a certain point, we started discussing this.

Oh, you know what I mean?

We have very common interests and we should just have you on the show.

And as mentioned before, life happened.

You know, there's so much going on.

But we persisted and we finally got Armel to join us at this table.

It's bloody hot.

I mean, this is the end of June, as you will see once we upload this show.

And it's.

I think it's one of those.

Or it's going to be one of those hot summers.

Even for little poor Belgium, it's really hot.

I mean, outside it's like 28 degrees Celsius.

Here it's sauna temperature.

And I think that my daughter will faint if we have a too long episode.

I mean, and if you, if you hear any.

I will.

If you hear any weird voices.

It's not electrostatic resonance, it's Just my daughter having her big fan, waving, making a very nice wind.

Otherwise she will really faint.

Anyway, so why did we invite you?

Not only because you're a nice guy, I told you, even if you're a history buff and you have some, some good knowledge and connection with fantasy, but you're basically an asshol, you will not get invited.

Luckily for us, you're a nice guy, you're a cool guy.

Are you sure about that?

Oh, I'm very sure, absolutely.

But what struck me quite quickly is not only that we are kindred spirits, you know, we have similar interests, but also that you have quite some knowledge and you, every time that you start talking about it, you see the passion or you hear the passion.

But I'm always amazed at how easy it is for you to pick, you know, any element that is related, historically speaking, that you can pinpoint it.

Oh, yeah.

But actually that finds its roots there and there, and then you jump to another battle or something that is less known by the larger public, and just to see that, how it interconnects and how it fuels your interest and how it sparked your enthusiasm for it.

And that's just a part, that's just for me was the first step.

And then I got to know the other stuff that you're interested and the other stuff you're doing.

So, I mean, it's even worse.

No, it's interesting.

So perhaps just to dive into it, I'll start with this question.

What specific, historically speaking, what specific era is, according to you, the most interesting?

For me personally, it's medieval times, because you have an overfluent of what kind of all kind of mythological creatures that you can have.

You have enough recordings of history of what happened, but not enough to be sure that certain things didn't happen.

I mean, you have the changement from Christian Europe from one mythology to the other.

Yeah.

So you go from all these more tribal religions where you have multiple gods to, well, the mythology of one God and all of a sudden all of the saints that actually for some reason have all their holidays on exactly the same moment, that these pagan religions are mostly based on going from, well, everyone knows that Christmas technically is Odin.

Of course Santa Claus is Odin.

Of course it is.

Of course.

I mean, of course we all knew that, right?

Yeah, sure.

DAUGHTER NODS.

I mean, you have this overgoing from all the aspects of or storytelling that we basically do every day to give an extra plus to life, to put it like that.

And we have this overflow from don't go into the woods or the Goblins are going to grab you to don't go into the woods.

Or a serpent is going to tell you to eat an apple and you'll be sent to a terrible place.

This earth, it's warm in the summer, it's way too cold in winter and you can have this terrible thing called sex.

So all terrible things on this earth come from all the mythical creatures that happen.

But you have to look out because instead of that, behind every tree you have a goblin, you can have Satan.

And the human mind is incredible in doing the worst kind of separations from each other based upon religion or on mythology or whatever separating that we're building around this.

But sorry, a bit off topic there.

No, no, no, no, no, to be.

Honest, Medieval times, because you have.

Actually most of our fantasy of these days is based upon, well, times that speak to our imagination.

And for me personally, I mean, you have all time periods that are interesting, but the variation of you have the Vikings, you have the Picts, you have.

The wild.

Tribes of the well, of the steppes of Mongolia, you have all these people coming together.

The actual chaos that the medieval times brings to everyone.

The so called Dark Ages, of course they weren't so dark as they always are.

Presumed electricity was not invented, that's why it was dark.

That's basically it.

But I mean that is true and perhaps I'm jumping too quickly up front.

Do you have the impression or the feeling that as fantasy literature evolves and I mean, we've covered this in previous editions, you know, there's a lot of new sub genres of fantasy writing.

We've covered that.

So I won't go into that.

But it got me thinking that the more we let our imagination, which is a good thing by the way, I'm totally with it.

The more we let our imagination work out and create these new hypotheses, create new stories, is that we risk of remembering the link actually this fantasy hat with religion and real facts that happened during the Middle Ages or even before.

I mean, the earlier you go in the history writing, less accurate it will be less trustworthy, I get that.

But many of these things, like you pointed out, they have their historical factual beginnings.

And the more we just dive and let our imagination work as we see or we see fit, is that one might forget that.

Well, actually there is some truth to it.

You know, there's some dark origin to it and that's why I'm a bit afraid that it might get lost.

If you know what I think actually.

That fantasy and all the genres around it Are for a lot of people who are really into the genre, actually a first step to find their way back to our actual history.

I think actually fantasy is the basic you can use.

And to be honest, I'm.

Although it's not bad, we could have a lot of more influence from actual history and the stories told back in the day than the productions that we have these days.

Because it's actually a lot of the stories that you now think, okay, not a bad story.

If you go to stories like even completely by some not really liked that much.

But for example, the movie Braveheart, of course it's a bit influenced and I know it's not fantasy like with dragons and all of them, but for example, they actually show the son of Edward I, who is the hammer of the Scots, the great enemy of William Wallace.

And they actually show the French princess who would be not really into his son.

And they actually kinda put the scene that Edward II would be interested in men instead of his wife.

But if you go into the real story, which I recently did a lot more about, actually one of the worst things during that time was the influence of the favorites, the court favorites that you could say of Edward II was the biggest downfall of England at that moment.

And they make this link in the movie that.

That already gives the suggestion.

But the main reason of the instability of England and the reason why Scotland was able to use this chaos was because of the fractions between, well, Edward II that was interested in his male favorites and granting them all kinds of lands, which was upsetting the English nobility and, well, the friction it gave with the church because everyone knew he was into men.

And actually just a small detail like the hammer of the Scots in William Wallace, kicking out the lover, or implied lover of Edward II is actually a huge link.

And they imply that the son of William Wallace, who would be created with the French princess, which would be actually in line with the fact that also in history they said that it wouldn't be the real son of Edward II because, well, he never was into his wife.

So they always pick these elements.

Kingdom of Heaven, same story, series like Vikings.

Yeah.

I mean, nobody has a clue how much of the.

The original sagas from.

They're actually Icelandic sagas.

And there is historic proof of Ivar the Boneless and all kinds of the other.

The sons of Ragnar, the great heathen army.

Those are historical things that happened.

It's just really difficult to find the line of where exactly is there another link between Wodon and Ragnar of being of the same bloodline?

Because it's so intertwined, the storytelling in those days.

And you still have that actually till quite modern times that you have.

If you don't have enough recordings, you have a lot of fantasy taking over.

And I think that fantasy actually is one of the basic reasons the necessity to search for something more than the daily life, to put it like that.

And you always have this link with the past.

For example, of course, Harry Potter would be a lot less interesting if everyone was running around with guns.

True.

But the fact that I mean nothing about you can.

I'm right.

Would be very easily done.

But I mean, they go back and what kind of weapons do they wield except of their wands?

They go back to swords.

I mean the great Mr.

Mystic thing, the sword of Godric Gryffindor.

It's a sword.

It's not.

Yeah, exactly.

It's not his gun from.

No, no.

Wouldn't go so long for the Dark Lord, I'm afraid.

Exactly.

Well, technically that's not correct.

Oh, do share.

Because you still have to kill.

Well, destroy every Horcrux.

Fair enough.

Before you can kill the Dark Lord.

So if you were to shoot him, shoot him with a gun, hypothetically speaking.

He would survive that even if you get a headshot.

Agreed.

But only for seven times.

What did I think?

You have to destroy the Horcruxes first and then you can kill him.

Fair enough.

But then again, you would get to kill him.

Yeah, if you destroy all the Horcruxes.

Okay, sure.

But let's be honest, the Death Eaters wouldn't go very long with a few automatic machine guns in Hogwarts.

Yeah, true.

Well, maybe they would also own machine guns.

Maybe they get along with the times.

I'm afraid it would become more of a Rambo movie and a bad one.

At that, or even worse.

But to me it's really interesting to see indeed how many of these stories.

It's two things I wanted to mention, perhaps the first one, I think it, like you very eloquently put.

How many?

Even if it's just a small connection.

But there is a connection to real history.

Even if you make an interpretation, let's say of a historical fact.

You know, be it a Kingdom of Heaven, be it Braveheart, sure there are Hollywood movies, etc.

Etc.

But there's always a base of real history that it was based upon.

Sure.

And the thing that I'm always a bit worried about is how much of the real story goes amiss or, you know, do people really miss?

They think, oh, this is a Cool movie, but it's, it's just a Hollywood movie and they don't delve deeper.

And like you mentioned, you know, you can have fantasy movies and you know, you mentioned Harry Potter.

I'm treading on very dangerous ground here because I'm going to make the comparison with Star Wars.

Star wars too.

Just Star wars in general, but I won't linger on.

But it's very similar.

And the fact that you made Armel is for me very important and very correct because it always draws back to the same thing.

You know, you have this element that is hard to comprehend, so you add some mystic element to it, but the elements are always there.

Take Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker.

Small kid, parents dead, you know, I mean, everybody knows that the parallels, right.

And then there are a lot of favorite tropes within fantasy.

Exactly.

The baseline of most superheroes, basically.

Exactly.

But it always draws back to the same thing.

And that's what comparison I wanted to make.

You have these very fantasy like or even science fiction movies, but they are very similar.

If you strip out stripped down of all the special effects, just the storyline, you know, the basics.

And that I do find again with historical fiction, you strip down all the, the big Hollywood things and the details you get more or less to the same basic stuff.

And that's where I always am interested in knowing the deeper origins of it.

And that's where more than on one occasion you got me thinking and researching stuff like, oh, really?

And then you go delve.

And then you say, oh, he was right.

Really, it's like that.

And then I started thinking, oh, hang on.

How many of the current authors in fantasy writing have done the same research?

I mean, it's not that hard, but you have to make that first step, you know, trying to delve into our own history.

And, and that's really an element that I'm really interested in and trying to see how it translates in modern fiction.

Well, to be honest, the baseline of most heroes who are fan fictionalized in whatever way.

You could almost make a comparison between Rakim and Jesus Christ, for example.

For the very fair reason.

Let me explain.

This is getting interesting.

Both of them underdogs, born in a certain situation that.

Well, yes, you can say yes, but Jesus is the son of God.

And Jesus is God, of course, of Course.

But let's look at just the fact where he was born.

Born in stable, raised by his mom and a stepdad.

That probably was quite suspicious about where he came from.

Yep.

Not really in a very rich environment, but born to do great stuff.

Sure.

Got some disciples, did some impressive things, did all kinds of adventures and eventually died a terrible death.

Yeah.

Let's look at Rackham.

Rackham born in England, terrible conditions, working class heroes.

Because people reflect, it's okay, but people are doing adventurous stuff.

On the other side of the sea.

Found his disciples.

Few of them were a few women, which made it even more spicy.

Jesus had also his two women, his mother and for all account prostitute.

I mean true.

One of Rakim's apostles was technically a prostitute.

So, you know, I just want to say it's an interesting though it's completely different, but both of them are completely fictionalized.

Don't get me wrong, big fan of Rackham story.

Jesus also fun, but well, like Rackham story a bit more to be fair.

But Rackham is also a product of fantasy based upon.

There are.

It's actually one of the more true crime stories.

I mean, general history of the pirates, for example, is you have all these archetypes of evil or sadistic pirates and you have all kinds of stereotypes.

You have the flamboyant Jack Rackham, you have the evil Blackbeard.

And the general history of pirates is actually one of the historic documents that we used to base our knowledge on pirates.

But it's actually true crime story from those times.

There were real people that actually lived, but their origin story was almost nothing known about.

It was just we have a few facts here, we have a few facts there.

We have a story and it's always if you're attacked as a merchant, it's always better to tell Blackbeard as the most fierce person ever than to tell there was a guy and he had five cannons and just basically didn't want to be shot at.

I mean, so the general history of the pirates is actually known as a true crime story, to put it like that.

And what's the difference between the Romans who said look, Jesus Christ is actually the son of soldier from Rome and you actually have these accounts of before that Rome became completely Christianized of putting all the facts of how they doubt about these stories and these accounts of Jesus Christ as how they were fictionalized.

And you had exactly the same discussion about taking into question.

But this can't be right based upon facts.

And for this reason you have a very same similar line with almost Every religion and every historical person that you fan fictionalized about.

Yeah, no, true.

And, and I think that some religion, plural, some religions did a better job at, you know, having a good marketing.

I mean that, that's it, you know, they were able to, to market the hell out of it.

If you see how our Christianity evolved, that's damn good.

Simple fact.

One of the reasons, according to the Romans, why they were so able to grow so fast instead of the Jewish faith that wasn't able to convert as easy was the fact that they convinced Romans they did not have to get circumcised.

That was one of the basic changes after 300 years of Christianity or 200, let's not do that.

I'm not sure about which year exactly, but to make sure there were a bit more people wanting to come to their religion, a grown man wasn't so easily convinced to, well, get circumcised any more than a boy of not even one year old.

So they quit the circumcising thing and it worked quite charming because you had always to convince the father of a family and then the rest of the family came.

So if you want to market marketing on marketing level, this just stop sniffing off a piece of penis and you make a lot of people happy.

Exactly.

I mean, and that's how they did a tremendous good job.

Then of course they got better organized.

They got some money into the story, yada, yada, yada.

And that's an interesting thing is if you do some fact checking, which is very important.

Even if you want to do a series of, you know, document out of it, you can only go so much back in time as sources will allow it.

And then of course.

Yeah.

How did they write the stories?

Well, they, they, they filled the gaps with their own imagination, I guess.

Absolutely.

And, and, and that's how we grew.

And then we took some things for granted.

Some people still think that these holy scriptures, whatever religion it is, but holy scriptures are to be followed by the book, by the letter.

Okay, but that's a different kind of dangerous fiction.

I won't go into deep on that.

But yeah, I mean, coming back to the stories, and that's one of the reasons why I knew that I had to have you as a guest.

You just touched upon so many different eras.

We talked about the Dark ages, so the medieval times.

We talked about the Romans, about the Greeks also.

But pirates, I know you don't like the pirates very much, my daughter.

Listen, I can't like everything.

That's true, that's true.

But I completely understand you.

Don't get me wrong.

The thing is why I find them interesting is basically it's one of the last periods in Western history, at least because there are definitely also later periods of time that we don't have decent written accounts.

That's the moment that you have the last parts of the world being well known to Western society.

You have not really a good.

For example, Madagascar would have been for example, a complete pirate base which eventually when they checked it out for 50 years they believed this or something like that.

And when they finally arrived there, they found a bunch of dirty hobos who were living with, with basically animal skins who were the last of those pirates who were living in nature and begged the British soldiers to take them back to England because it was such a terrible place.

But I mean it's, that's one of the last moments before all the map was colored to put it like that.

And you know, as long as a myth persists then you get all these, well the whole part of myth becomes only stronger.

And that's just my opinion.

For as long as you don't have factual checking, you know, as long as you cannot check the facts, you will rely on what people tell you.

You know, even if it's, if it is passed on from generation to generation, you know, then the myth really grows.

Same goes for the pirates and it does make a good story and it still is a good source of fantasy writing.

And now everything is getting really entwined with one another.

We've talked about this.

I know and I'm still having a hard time finding my way in those newer quote unquote newer types of fantasy.

But to that point is there, you know, amongst or in the books that you find a time to read, would you much sooner pick a non fiction, so a more historical factual book or do you also take a darker path to.

I try to combine the two but I have to admit that for me the classics that I am afraid that all of the listeners already know, those are complete works of art.

You which, which top three would you, you know, just in any random order but just three books.

But I know we might touch this later to be honest the book because I have dyslexia and all kinds of learning disabilities and when I was like in third grade I oh my logo Buddhist.

And all of those people tried to convince me to read more with books like books like John Peed in his Bed.

Yeah that's not very motivating to read a very simple book about a guy who pees in his bed.

I'm very sorry, but.

No, I'm sorry.

I don't get motivated by this.

I'm very sorry.

They're really better things.

But to be honest, my mom found a great thing to convince me.

She started with Harry Potter books, and I asked if she wanted to read them to me because I couldn't read them myself because they were too complex.

Maybe it wasn't when I was in third grade.

Maybe in first or second.

I'm not sure how old I was, to be honest.

Seven or eight, something like that.

My mom made a deal with me that she would read, like, five pages, and then I had to read a very small part of the book.

And we started with the first book together, and we build up, and the difference between what she read and what I read was becoming, well, smaller.

That I had to read my part as well.

Sure.

And then she read a page to me, I read the page to her, and so we build up.

And I think we did the first five together, and the last two I did on my own.

Not that that's such an impressive thing.

No, no.

But I mean, you built your way up to there.

I mean, that is still impressive.

The thing that actually, with my learning disabilities, my reading is not as bad as my writing.

Okay.

And that I actually can read.

I can't read very well when I have to say it loud to everyone but a slow reader.

But I do love reading.

And it's definitely because, actually I learned reading because of Harry Potter.

Okay.

And see, so Harry Potter is definitely a personal favorite.

Always will be.

I think I put on the movies a few times a year just to fall asleep with.

Okay.

It's just.

It's just easy.

You know, the story completely.

But.

But, hey, it's nice if it's a favorite.

You know, it never gets boring.

Absolutely.

And you have a very personal and very touching link with that.

I mean, I think that is really endearing.

And it only shows.

I mean, you.

Your mom did definitely a better job than I did with my kids.

I should have.

I mean, we.

I also read books to them, but I didn't read them real fantasy when they were small, did I?

No, no.

I mean, we.

But the passion came later.

The passion came later.

What?

You want to comment on that?

Yeah, I think for me, it started with the Harry Potter books as well.

See, See, I totally missed my.

My parenting there, but.

Okay, but which.

That series is what really got me into reading.

And then, yeah, I also went for other classics like Lord of the Rings, obviously, which I didn't like.

Exactly.

Fair enough.

I'm sorry.

We covered that.

I'm sorry.

I can't like everything as I said.

Okay.

To be honest, looking back now, the only reason why I liked Harry Potter was because I was a child.

And now that I'm older and whenever I read.

Are you wiser?

That's what you're going to say?

No.

No.

Okay.

Okay.

But yes, of course.

Obviously, if I were to reread these stories now, I don't think I would like Harry Potter anymore because looking back, there are so many things in the story that just do not make sense.

Fair enough.

That really bothers me.

Yeah.

But hang on, this is very.

I'll come back to that.

Just hold that thought.

We were at book number one with you, Armel.

You still have two favorites to pick.

Sorry.

Well, yeah, we actually already started about second one.

It was definitely Lord of the Rings, of course.

Yay.

Yeah, I know how stereotypical that they are.

That's all good.

I mean, we don't always have to go for the least known dark.

I don't know what type of book they can be even quote unquote mainstream or very popular.

For me, there is no wrong book as long as one.

If it's tied to your childhood, if it made you eager to start reading or even eager to keep up a reading habit, I mean, that is job well done from that author and well done for you to clinging on and saying, oh, you know, this is interesting.

I might want to read another similar book.

No matter the pace.

You know, pace is.

It's.

It's not a point.

It's.

It's nothing to take into account as long as you read.

And that, that is really my belief.

It doesn't matter what you read as long as you are reading.

And then you can move on.

You still have your third book to tell me, but you can move on in trying to see or try to connect the dots from where again, pointing back to the beginning of the discussion.

From where did this inspiration come from with the author?

Where did he or she find the inspiration?

What's the story?

I mean, that's always what I am interested in.

And the point that I wanted to make, referring back to you noor your comment.

I mean, that goes for any fictional story, be it science fiction, be it fantasy, if it's fictional, you know, think of your mom even when we're watching a fictional story, you know, not even science fiction or fantasy.

But you know, she would be then sitting in the couch with us and we're watching a movie and then she would go, oh, that doesn't make sense.

That's impossible.

Hold on, hold on.

There is a difference between mom who just overall doesn't like fantasy all that.

Much because I still married her, which is okay.

Not everyone has to like fantasy.

Sure.

Just who can't really imagine certain fantasy things being possible, which is the entire point of fantasy, because it's not supposed to be possible.

And stories who contradict each other themselves.

I can relate to that.

For example, in Harry Potter you have this character called Sirius Black and he goes to Azkaban, which is a prison for a crime which he did not commit.

That sounds like the atm.

However, however, don't yell.

In.

In the, in this world there is a truth serum that can force people to tell the truth.

So I'm like, you know, if he says that he does not commit the crime and, and you give him the truth serum and he still says I did not commit the crime.

I don't know.

Yeah, of course.

But they also destroyed their own world in this when they started with the follow up story after Harry Potter where there's still one timepiece left.

I mean, you know, where they based the play on.

I'm very sorry, but before you had these timepieces.

And of course they could go back in time and save everyone all the time, but all of a sudden they're all broken, except just one.

And the Dark Lord already.

Again, another thing, I completely get your point.

But for example, Harry Potter is basically loved because it's also.

It's not an adult book, to put it like it.

Adults still like it.

Yeah, it's like basically the Brothers Grimm.

I think.

What for me, what Harry Potter was so great for me.

Not because of the author, because there's a lot of discrimination.

There's a lot that doesn't make sense in the world building in the way that the author writes.

It's just she contradicts herself constantly.

Like many other authors, by the way.

But it's glaringly obvious with J.K. rowling.

But for me, it became such and still is such an amazing world because of the fans and what the fans did with what they were given and how our imagination made it that much bigger.

Absolutely.

And I think that's a very fair point.

At a certain point you have to allow your own imagination, your own enthusiasm for the story and get carried away with it.

You know, be moved by it and don't get lost in dissecting.

The story and saying, oh, this doesn't make sense because A, B and C. Exactly.

Because at the end of the day, the whole idea of going to a magical school where you can learn magic.

Huh?

And be a witch where you can be a witch or a wizard, of course that's appealing because life is boring.

Why wouldn't we want magic?

Yeah, which is exactly why I'm going to a magic school this summer.

No, that's not even fiction.

That is true.

Yeah, that is.

That is true.

I am.

Tell me more about it.

So this is this summer.

I am going to a larp.

Cool.

For those who don't know, Live action roleplay larp.

It's a trip of like four days and we will be staying in a castle.

What do you mean you're going to be high for four days?

It's a trip for four days.

I was going to ask which castle, but your question is definitely better.

I'm just interested in the song.

It's near Lug in a castle called Sorry.

That's okay.

It's Leech.

Whatever.

The best name.

Always a fan.

When I'm coming back from Germany.

So if I'm not mistaken, it's called Notre Dame, ironically.

Fair enough.

Okay.

And the whole premise of the LARP is it's a sort of college, sort of university college thing, not Harry Potter related.

So it's not after you come back from Hogwarts.

It's its own universe.

Fair enough.

But also you're a wizard or a witch and you go to class.

Fair enough.

Okay.

So you're going voluntarily back to class this summer, this is what you're saying?

Yes, absolutely.

Well, I'm really excited for the classes too.

Okay, well.

And when is it this summer.

But when exactly?

It's from the.

I think 24th of July till the 29th of July.

Okay.

And have you all.

So have you had a lot of experience with LARPing?

It's my first.

Great.

Yeah, I'm really.

Yeah.

That's also why I chose this one because it has a very.

It still has like a very clear structure.

Absolutely.

Because you have also LARPs.

Also LARPs.

Like a medieval LARP.

And that usually is more chaotic.

Yeah.

Because you have a lot more freedom there while in a school larp.

Well, obviously it's school.

So you have classes to attend, clubs to attend.

You have certain times where you go to the cafeteria to eat.

So there is still a certain structure, rules.

Have you thought about a prison?

LARP could also be fun.

No.

For some.

I mean, I Have what I have thought about because a friend of mine has done a few larps already.

She is ultimately also the one who convinced me to start larping.

Always.

Those terrible friends have a terrible influence.

So is the other.

And one of the LARPs she has done in the past is more like a haunted type of larp, like horror fiction type stuff.

And like that sounds also super interesting.

And do you have to make your costume yourself or.

Yeah.

So also for this larp, if you are a student or a teacher, then you have to bring all your own costumes.

But it's very casual.

I've seen a lot of pictures of previous previous years.

Some go like all out, look super fancy dressed up and others are like very home homemade.

I pulled it out of the closet yesterday.

Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

It's nice when people give it a try.

Exactly.

And it's.

You can even.

I mean that's.

That's my two cent.

Have a very amateuristic or very basic outfit.

But as long as you play along, you know, you.

You really invest in the character and the story.

And usually only the NPCs get costumes from the organization itself because then obviously they have to play certain characters.

There is a certain vision ahead of time.

So they get their costumes from the organization itself.

But in any other case you just bring your own stuff.

And is there already a prepared storyline or is it.

Yes, there is a lot of plotline, but we don't know anything great.

Funnily enough, I'm friends with a lot of the people who are in team plot and each year they work in arcs of three years because a student also goes through three years.

Fair enough.

So I'm lucky that the previous arc wrapped up last year.

So when I start, it's also a fresh new arc.

So I will do one arc throughout my student time there instead of being in the middle between two, which is nice, but we don't know ahead of time what this will be about.

And for example, can they go as far as, I don't know, the bad guys kidnapping a student that you're there for four days and spend 12 hours in a basement tied up.

I wouldn't say they go that far with like keeping somebody in prison for 12 hours because then they would miss out on a lot of plot.

But what I do know from last year there was this evil wizard that they had to defeat who brainwashed like half of the students.

So it turned out to like with students battling each other like brainwashed versus still okay students.

So they.

The plots are Pretty big for the venue and the people that you're working with.

It's not just slice of life.

There is an awesome factor in there as well.

And how much do they make a typical white and black story of good and evil?

Or is it more?

I don't think so.

And there's also a lot of.

So you have the main plot.

That is what I just explained.

You can also ask for player plot, and then they write specific plot for your character.

For example, one of the characters that I know of is a clown character who comes from a circus, which is a student.

I'm afraid of clowns.

Definitely the bad guy.

Definitely a bad guy.

She's a sweetheart.

I love her.

I love her.

Yeah, that's what you always think.

Exactly.

They thought about the same about Voldemort.

Just saying they're all wizards and witches there.

But anywho, burn them.

Burn.

And she gets a lot of visions, and that can be from the main plot or player plot.

And that really helps steering all the people where they need to go because then she sees it like a few hours ahead of time.

So she knows, oh, I have to kind of push people towards that direction.

So that's the one you want to kill.

The problem is.

Oh, no.

See, the thing is, my character is also coincidentally on that road because she comes from a sage family.

So she will most likely also have visions involuntarily.

Fair enough.

Now, before I melt away, we still have your third book to discuss.

So we have Harry Potter.

We have actually between a few, because those are two easy ones.

But you have a lot of different options where you can go.

You have the.

For example, you have, if I'm not mistaken, the.

I'm not sure how to pronounce this in English, but you have the Tubadur.

The bards, actually the wandering bards.

And.

Yeah, wandering bards.

Well, it's basically a story that plays out in the Hundred Years War.

Oh, okay.

And actually it tells.

That's one of the reasons why I got really involved in the Hundred Years War.

It tells actually the story of, without doubt, the second most impressive person at the French side of the Hundred Years War, Bertrand du Guestiel, which was an actual real life captain in the beginning of the Hundred Years War.

And who comes from.

Well, it's actually the Turbadour who joins him as a child.

And it tells his story from actually a very, very, very close to being a peasant noble to the biggest general of France, to put it like that, who actually in real life fought against the Black Prince.

And all of them.

And the thing is, can you say it's fantasy in the classical way?

No, but you have an overlap between reality and fiction because of how they connect all the big aspirations, all the situations with the mercenary companies.

You have.

It doesn't have dragons, to put it like that.

It's okay.

But it is very close to actual the historical story.

But you have the way how they bring it together and how they, for example, have a laugh with the fact that there are three popes at the moment in time that are so actually talking to your fantasy side that it really sparks your interest in.

Okay.

You have this really impressive guy who actually existed made even bigger than he was.

Or maybe he wasn't made bigger.

That's the interesting thing.

We don't know for certain.

We only know quite a lot of impressive aspects of him.

But it's that thin line of fiction and fact that brings him together.

And I think that might be a good reason why I do like it a lot.

You could compare it, for example, to the book of.

For example, in a certain way.

Very famous Dutch book.

Yeah, absolutely.

You can definitely compare it with that in a certain way because that actually also happened.

55,000 children marching to Italy.

One group comes at the sea and.

Oh, and now I'm going to split open the sea like Moses.

Oh, nothing.

Nothing happened.

Well, that's.

Well, that's terrible luck.

Let's just return home.

The other group.

Oh, you are nice merchants who wants to want to bring us to the other side of the sea.

Oh, you're now being sold into slavery.

Yeah, exactly.

A few of them then do return and they hang the child that started the Crusades.

I mean, these are stories that are so bizarre.

But on the other hand, human history is so bizarre.

Absolutely.

But I would pick that one or I.

It's just a personal liking.

If I would say a fort, I would go.

But these are all picked from my childhood.

Sure.

I do have favorites as a growing up as well.

But as a child, I would say the Diane Shun books because they're about.

Oh, I'm so excited that you've read those.

I've read them as well.

I love them.

And.

And yeah, my daughter's looking at like me like.

I don't know what the you're talking about.

And when, when you were.

I don't know, you must have been like 12ish.

I tried to get you into these books.

It's young boy.

It talks about vampires.

Okay.

Very, very short, but it's so cool.

It's very accessible.

I don't know how many books.

I have them actually somewhere there in that library.

Quite a lot.

I thought like 13 or something.

Oh, come on, I've shown you that.

But again, it's 10 years ago.

I don't even remember you trying to get me into these books.

Oh, I definitely tr.

Apparently not hard enough.

But I'm so glad that you also read those.

I found them amazing.

I was.

As we always are when they try to make a new fantasy film and it doesn't turn out so great.

The movie was very disappointing.

So for whoever saw the movie, don't reference it, never watch it again.

Who haven't seen the movie, don't watch it.

But the books really.

I really love the books because they are based upon enough of modern times, based upon more than enough reality, and the main character is actually really accessible.

Oh yeah, I really enjoy.

I mean, that brings up a lot of memories.

I'll show you the books just in a minute.

I mean, I have like, still 100 questions I want to ask you, but I mean, we're closing to an hour already.

You can have me as long as you want.

Oh, yeah.

But we can definitely do another episode on this because there's so much to delve in and to dive in into more details, how history fuels our passion or imagination to create or to fill in the gaps that history still has.

And then our imagination just goes wild.

And then you have.

You start with historical fiction and then it goes into fantasy and so forth.

But you see, that's the interesting part.

Anyway, we'll put all the links to all the topics we discussed.

Books, the movies and activities as well.

We'll try our best to have another episode a bit quicker than next month.

I mean, it's the end of June now, so we should have the ability to have another one somewhere in July.

Right?

Right.

Maybe.

We'll see.

Will you have done your lopping by the next time?

I mean, we always.

That's definitely an interesting adventure to talk about here next time.

Well, it is near the end of.

July, so technically it could work out.

It could work.

And moreover, we made.

Or at least you made that promise that you would cover it because.

Oh, I most definitely will talk once I've gone on this larp.

Exactly.

It will be the only thing I talk about for at least a week.

Okay, but we're just gonna wrap it up in one hour then.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I'll give you the highlights in an hour.

Ish.

Maybe two if I really need to.

That's a joke to be fair.

If it were up to me, we would still stay here for another hour.

So.

I get your feeling.

But hey, anyway, Armel, it was really a pleasure having you.

It was a pleasure to be here.

And absolutely feel free to jump back in.

And you're most welcome to discuss any other topic that is even faintly remote or remotely linked to fantasy writing or activities.

But anyway, thanks a lot.

It was a pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

All right, thanks.

This concludes our episode, so until next.

Time, stay enchanted, stay curious, and keep the fantasy alive.

Sam.