Bhutan Series w/ Breathe Bhutan - A Conversation with Ugyen Rinzin - Bhutan's History, Buddhism Basics + Modern Bhutanese Culture

In this opening episode of my Bhutan Series, I sit down for a deep, thoughtful conversation with Ugyen Rinzin, a Bhutanese local from Paro, to explore the heart and soul of one of the world’s most fascinating countries.

Recorded in Thimphu, Bhutan, this episode is a beginner-friendly introduction to Bhutan’s history, Buddhist philosophy, and modern Bhutanese culture, told through the lived experience of someone who grew up before television and the internet arrived in the country.

We unpack what makes Bhutan so unique — from its deep-rooted connection to Buddhism, its people-first philosophy, and the idea of Gross National Happiness, to how the younger generation is navigating a rapidly changing world.

If you’ve ever wondered:

1. What is Bhutan really like?
2. How does Buddhism shape everyday life in Bhutan?
3. Why is Bhutan considered one of the most meaningful travel destinations on Earth?

— this episode is the perfect place to start.

Across the Bhutan Series, you’ll hear:

1. Conversations with local Bhutanese voices
2. Immersive episodes on hiking, culture, food, and daily life
3. Solo breakdowns explaining how travel in Bhutan actually works

This is not just a travel podcast episode — it’s an invitation to slow down, listen, and understand Bhutan on a deeper level.

🎧 If Bhutan has ever been on your travel radar, this series will show you why it deserves to be.

Thanks & Credits

Huge thanks to Breathe Bhutan for creating an authentic, culture-focused itinerary and making experiences like this possible during the first days of my journey. Also, thanks to Tourism Bhutan for hosting me on this trip and making it possible.

This entire journey through Bhutan was made possible by Breathe Bhutan, who created an incredible, deeply immersive itinerary that allowed me to experience the country far beyond the surface. From meeting local families to having honest conversations like this one, their focus on authentic, responsible, and meaningful travel is something I’ll be showcasing throughout this series.

Breathe Bhutan

Website to book tours - https://www.breathebhutan.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/breathebhutan/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/breathebhutan/

🎧 Next up: the second episode in my Bhutan series, recorded on location on the Tiger's Nest Monastery hike, will be an immersive soundscape to bring you along for my hike to one of the most amazing temples in the world.

Want to travel with me to El Salvador?

Click this link to hear more - https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/winging-it-podcast/id1559489384?i=1000734952340

Click here to book - https://intrepid.wetravel.com/i/68fa168c8d157da799033142

❤️ Support the Show

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on your favourite podcast app — it helps new listeners discover the show. And share this episode with a friend who loves adventure, travel and big ideas.

Buy me a coffee if you like for $5, this helps with the production costs of the podcast - Here

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Bhutan and the Podcast

01:22 Meeting Ugyen Rinzen: A Local Perspective

03:47 Bhutan's History and Cultural Preservation

10:07 Bhutanese Youth and Global Influences

17:05 The Future of Bhutan's Youth

20:06 Understanding Buddhism: A Simplified Overview

23:21 Who is Buddha? The Essence of Buddhahood

25:11 The Geographic Spread of Buddhism

28:11 Understanding the Four Noble Truths

31:43 Roles of Priests, Monks, and Lamas

34:37 Buddhism in a Capitalist World

36:41 Exploring Buddhism: A Beginner's Guide

40:27 The Nature of Time in Buddhism

43:46 Transcending Boundaries: The Essence of Humanity

--------------------------------------------------------------

Produced by Winging It Productions - ⁠https://www.wingingitproductions.com⁠

Voyascape: Travel Podcast Network - https://voyascape.com/

Winging It Travel Podcast - Website

Please leave a review and a 5-star rating wherever you get your podcasts!

--------------------------------------------------------------

Winging It Travel Podcast Credits

Host/Producer/Creator/Composer/Editor - James Hammond

Contact me - jameshammondtravel@gmail.com or james@wingingitproductions.com

Social Media - follow me on:

Instagram

TikTok

Facebook

--------------------------------------------------------------

Support My Podcast - Memberships

Patreon - Here

Buy Me A Coffee - Here

Affiliate Links

If you click one of the below to book something, I get a tiny commission, which helps the podcast.

Book Flights with Skyscanner - Here

Use Revolut Travel Card - Here

Book Your E-Sim With GigSky - Here

Book Hostels With Hostelworld - Here

Booking.com - Here

Book Experiences With Viator - Here

Discovery Car Hire - Here

Book Buses With Busbud - Here

Book Trains With Trainline - Here

Travel Insurance with SafetyWing - Here

Book Flights With Expedia Canada - Here

Buy my Digital Travel Planner - Here

--------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for supporting me and the podcast!

Cheers James.

Hello and welcome to my Bhutan series for my trip there in December 2025. I spent 10 nights and 11 days exploring the country with Breathe Bhutan who created an incredible itinerary that I'll be showcasing throughout this series. Across these episodes you'll hear interviews with local people, immersive experiences from the activities that I took part in and solo episodes where I break down every detail of the trip. I chose Breathe Bhutan because of the pride they have in offering truly authentic experiences and trust me,

this journey was exactly that. In the first episode of the series, I sit down with Ugyen Rinzin a resident of Thimphu who's originally from Paro. I first met Ugyen on one of my first nights in Bhutan during a welcome drink and dinner at his daughter and son-in-law's home. That evening, I also met the wider Breathe Bhutan team, including Kinley, who owns the company. Ugyen and I ended up talking for hours over a few beers about life, Bhutan and the world, and I instantly knew I had to get him on the podcast. He has previously been interviewed by the BBC

and brings a huge amount of wisdom not just about Bhutan but also about Buddhism and life in general. In this conversation we explore Bhutan's history, unpack Buddhism from the perspective of someone who's learning it for the first time and finish with wide-ranging discussions about life. It's a truly captivating chat and honestly we could have gone for hours. Anyway, let's begin with the interview with Ugyen. Enjoy.

Welcome to the Winging It Travel Podcast, your weekly ticket to the world, dropping every Monday and hosted by me, James Hammond, proudly part of the Boy Escape Network. This is a travel podcast that throws out the itinerary and dove straight into the raw, real and unpredictable essence of global exploration, chasing moments over milestones, those spontaneous encounters, immersive sounds and unforgettable stories. Whether I'm hiking up volcanoes in Guatemala,

or camping under the stars in British Columbia.

met incredible people, seen breath taking places and collected unforgettable stories. I now get to share them with you, alongside some of the most diverse and well travelled guests from around the world. Expect engaging conversations that bring fresh perspectives and inspiring travel tales. There are also raw, reflective solo episodes where I share personal insights, practical tips and honest stories from the road. This is a podcast for travellers, dreamers, backpackers and anyone who's ever thought, what if I just went for it and travelled? If you're looking for stories to tell, tips to share,

and experiences to inspire, then you're in the right place. There's so much travel content coming your way, it might just spark that trip you've been dreaming about for years. You can find Winging It, a more fantastic travel podcast from around the world at voyescape.com. The link is in the show notes. Let's go and explore the world. Hello and welcome to this week's episode. I'm joined by a very special guest, my friend here, Ugyen Rinzin, and he is from Bhutan. And today he's going to talk about Bhutan as a country.

and Buddhism. So I've got some questions for him. They're not too hard. If you have a basic understanding of both of them, you should get a better understanding at the end of the episode and hopefully we'll learn some interesting facts. again, thanks for coming to the podcast. How are doing?

I'm good. Thank you for having me, James. I'm really excited to be talking with you and sharing whatever little I know about Bhutan and Buddhism.

Now that's unfair because I spoke to you last night for many hours and we learnt some stuff. Yeah, I'm going to sort of do half and half really. So Bhutan, a lot people don't know much about Bhutan. So it's like a crash course in a starter pack for Bhutan. And then I'm going to ask some Buddhism questions because linked heavily together. Right. First of all, tell me about yourself. Where are you from in Bhutan and growing up, what was it like?

That's

I'm from Paro Bhutan and I actually was born in Punaka, which is in another district. And my schooling right from primary until high school, I did in Paro. And then I went on to do my degree course in the East. That's called the only college then, it's called Sherapthi College. So I have undertaken a bachelor's degree in biological sciences.

And so later on, after I joined my service, then I got a scholarship to, British government scholarship to go on to pursue a master's degree in food technology in United Kingdom.

in London, Yeah, great. And for life growing up in Bhutan, we do hear a little bit about the past being closed from most of the countries around you and around the world. Is that true? And how much did you know about the outside world before you went to London?

I'm very limited, I must say, because as you know, ⁓ television and internet was only opened...

as

you know, around 1999, I must say. So until then we had the radio and maybe like a video kind of recorded movies or something like that we can play. Otherwise we had access to magazines and newspapers, but even newspapers were like ⁓ government owned, only one. And we had one ⁓ national radio. So that, that was about it actually.

Why do you think it was so closed? Why did it take such a long time to open up to the world?

The way I see it and even when I reflect, I think it was a very wise idea. I mean, it was very wise decision, because we are hemmed in between two giant countries, very, very big, culturally, socially, economically, militarily. So we could have actually been consumed by the culture or exposure to those two countries, as well as the floodgate of information that's going to come up from the West anyway.

So therefore, until our own media, language and all those things were ready to counter those, if you had opened then we would have really gone wrong in a big way.

Do you think that's why so many people want to visit now? Because you have preserved your culture for so long that even today, even though you've been open for 25, 30 years, it still feels like for me that I'm going back in time.

Right. Human beings generally, think from a number of tourists that I've met so far, think this is the catch for them to come to Bhutan. the ideology of gross national happiness, so people oriented development rather than material oriented development. So this is, now we see that over the last, I must say, maybe ⁓

three, four decades of economic development in the West, you know, since the industrial revolution, or you may like to call, the world is in a way the general mass is not getting any better. Yeah. So there's always some dissatisfaction, discontent. There's always this economic gap between rich and poor. It's never, never closings, no matter, you know, what level of education, the curriculum, what.

Yes.

you may like to put or political manifestos or whatever. It doesn't seem to correct that somehow.

And I'm not picking on one country here, but India, for example, over a billion people, think half the country or just below half are in poverty. And you think of how many people that is. That's like 500 million. It's crazy when you think the numbers, right? But then the other half are so well off or not rich, but know, they're very comfortable. So yeah, you're right. It's a strange dynamic that we have at the minute. And India is not the only place. I'm just giving an example. Right. And you mentioned Bhutanese culture. ⁓ Give us a indication at a high level.

like paragraph of what you say boutonese culture is.

I would say like Bhutan derives its thought process mainly from the Buddhist teaching. Buddhist teaching of non-harming, harmony, peace, tranquility. Therefore, we are in harmony with nature. We are in harmony with our neighbors. And especially if you talk about the Mahayana view. So Mahayana view is like the others are considered more important than self.

So that is a direct threat to the ego. That crushes the ego. Because we think that life is interdependent. Whatever phenomena arises is interdependent. So we depend a lot on others. Even to make a cup of tea, actually the ingredients come from all over the place. All over the place in the world. The tea may come from India. The milk powder may come from China. The sugar may come from Brazil.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, and then it may be made by somebody else. And the cup may be made in, you know, Italy or something like that. So you really cannot think of man in isolation or as an island. So therefore interdependence. So in this modern times, as we go embark on the 21st century, we still see that the virtue of the old ⁓ age, old ideas and theories.

Beliefs, I must say.

We're going to come onto Buddhism a bit later. ⁓ A few more questions about Bhutan. That does reflect in the people. The people I've met obviously are very nice, very welcoming. They help you out. They speak English as well, which is great for a tourist because that's probably the main language, right? How does Bhutanese see the rest of the world? Bhutanese kids or younger generation, which countries do they like the most from the outside world? I know that they're obviously proud of their own country, but is there strong influences you think from other countries?

into their lifestyle or into their interests.

I must say it's varied actually. So some youth now they say ⁓ are attracted to K-POPs, Korean pop. And in terms of, there are also influences from the YouTube. Some are creative, know, some are coders, programmers, you know, some they take interest in AI, development of AI. And ⁓ then of course now there is this,

Wow, Korean? Yeah.

for college graduates or who have completed their ⁓ degree courses or whatever, because the job market here is limited. So therefore there is a substantial amount of youth actually looking for joining their friends or colleagues or their cousins in Australia or America or the Middle East. So.

That's the trend as of now, but I would like to think that it's a short term issue because no matter whatever it is, at the end of the day, Bhutan is always a safe haven. even other day, yesterday evening, met a couple who has just returned back from Australia, who after having spent nearly 12 years.

Yeah

So they probably made some realization that home is always a sweet home.

⁓ Interesting. Very interesting. Interestingly enough, lot of Bhutanese are in Australia. Is that the biggest population outside of Bhutan?

Yeah,

yes, yes, especially in Perth, they say.

Yeah,

Perth, it's such an interesting place. And also you might be thinking, oh, they can go to Perth, they speak English. So I want to ask, you can speak Greg English? A lot of the population speaks English. Is that because it's taught in school?

Yep. Because English is a medium of instruction in Bhutan, in Bhutanese schools. Even as, you know, when I began my primary education, we learned all the subjects in English. So though we do not really claim that we are better off now, then the younger generation, my grandchildren, for instance, like even before they are into school, they are very fluent and their vocabulary is so great.

met one of your grandchildren last night, the little girl, she's like nine or 10, speaks perfect English. I find that incredible. Amazing. I'm going ask you for some of your favorites before we go to Buddhism. what's your favorite area of Bhutan that you like to visit and maybe someone should visit if they come to Bhutan?

For me, I'm ⁓ always an outdoor kind of person. I like the mountains. I love the lakes and the peaks and the landscape. And also the lesser visited remote areas, basically.

Okay. Yeah. Which part of the country is that? that the

It's like the mountain ranges from the west all the way to the

And also the nomadic people up in the north.

Okay. What is your favourite Bhutanese dish to eat?

Now it may sound a bit unnatural, but I still think for me it's a madhati.

which is like the Cheney cheese. I've had a lot of that so far.

But

not that stingy one. The little cheese are not so oily.

But I'm fine, though.

Right. Okay. What about a booze and these drink could be alcohol or, or soft drink.

For me, though it's not considered very healthy, I love the fermented ⁓ drink, but that's not distilled. So it's almost like beer, not carbonated. So we call it Singchang or Bangchang.

Okay. Yeah. Right. Can you give us a couple of phrases in Bhutanese that people should learn to come over here?

Well, think, kathin che is thank you. Lasso is like please or also in a way very honorable way of saying yes.

Yeah. And lastly, if you're going to sit on a mountain and watch the sunset or sunrise, where in Bhutan is that?

Well, traditionally, also, I think it's been some kind of ⁓ recommendation really for practitioners of the highest Buddhist teaching. They have a practice called sun gazing. So there are actually two famous places from where people were, the practitioners were recorded to have actually disappeared.

They have attained rainbow body. It dissolved their material body and then it became light body. So the place is, one is in Bumdang called Thapaling and one is in Paru called Bhemri. So these are like, I guess they have a perfect vantage point for viewing the sunrise as well as the sunset. Yeah, but you could also gaze the sky.

Right.

Yeah. Amazing. That'd incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was flying from Bangkok on the plane. Left hand side. This is a top tip that I got given and I pass on because from Bangkok into Bhutan on the left hand side, have the Himalayas and you can see, I saw Everest in the background and then Kenchenjunga, ⁓ which is an incredible site. So that's my top tip for Bhutan. If you're flying in from Bangkok, ⁓ left hand side of the plane, if you're flying out from Bhutan, right hand side. Right. But I think

On the plane, people couldn't believe they were seeing the Himalayas, which kind of suits what you say, but the mountains, right? It's just a breathtaking area, isn't it? Of the world. And I do wonder the Perth thing makes me laugh because the beauty needs to go to Perth, which is completely different. Does that make you laugh? Does it make you think like why, why Perth? Or do you think people just want to have a beach and some hotter weather? Like what's, what's the thing there?

I guess like the cash may be quite different, know, so, but maybe economic reasons, nothing to do. You know, something breathtaking of that sort. So therefore, because many Bhutanese are there, they can help each other. So there's a good network of Bhutanese there. So I think that is the primary reason why they are there. And things can be like short, it can be divided into

Nothing to

Yeah. What? Yeah.

short, midterm and long term. So I'm of the belief that not many people will stay behind. In the end, they will come back. And I'm quite optimistic that youth, especially from 18 to 27 or even 30, once they go there, there is this value for time and the dignity of labor. All those things which are fairly dormant here will be picked up.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

to a greater degree. So if you are losing one youth today for a few years, when they come back, will multiply into five skills, you know, so they know it will be very difficult to reverse the perception and the kind of culture they come back. So they will be more productive, more creative. So if you lose 65,000, for instance today, so I think that will go into fourfold productive when they come back.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes, makes sense.

So, so therefore like we will have more motivated, inspired and hands-on kind of youth who will form the new labor force or the creative force in the country. So I would like to look at it that way. Maybe temporarily it looks like a vacuum, but it's not. So I'm also quite concerned that people are capturing in a negative way. It cannot be because, know, if you train some, even if you go to a, you know, highly,

Yes.

premium training institute or college. You learn some basic skills, but as human beings, how we are, our memory is short lived. You cannot translate whatever you learn into skills that can create a job or new products or things like that. But ⁓ a culture or a discipline that you have learned through five, six years, when they come back, they cannot forget that. They will be in that mode and they will try to.

But as opposed to that, if you see the youth here generally, they're quite laid back. They won't want to work in more innovative or creative ways. So therefore, I look at that way.

⁓ I'm ch-

So you're saying you almost need people to go away for a short sure.

Especially youth, you know,

I really don't know about the people beyond 35. I really don't know. That's a different, but for me as someone who's optimistic, who look at everything from an optimistic angle or viewfinder, know, so I still, I see big promise for.

That's great. That's a positive. Yeah. Okay. I love that. This guy's positive. I love this guy. Right. We're going to into Buddhism. So my questions are going be very simple because I don't know much about it. I'm learning on this trip as I go. That's all right. And then I'm shamelessly going to read it from my pad because ⁓ it's hard to know. You're welcome. The first question is Buddhism in its simplest form, if you could explain what it is.

well, let me come straight, give you the straight answer. So, Buddhism condensed in one para would be like, you will not do any, commit any non-virtuous deed. You only do virtuous deed, second. And third is you will tame your mind. So mind is the center of Buddhist culture.

that you

Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist life. So, yeah, you don't hurt others. Okay? And then train your mind in two simple terms. Do as much good as possible to anyone. Don't harm anybody and train your mind. Tame your mind. So, this is the essence of Buddhism. ⁓

Next question would be, sounds more like a spirituality rather than a religion or is that unfair to say? Would you describe Buddhism as a religion?

Well, not in the context of, you know, from a theistic point of view. You see an external God who condemns you or who blesses you. it is mainly Buddhism allows the flowering of blossoming of individuals ⁓ optimum capacity, potential. So for that matter, any human being can realize the full potential of oneself if you focus on your mind.

Okay.

the capacities of the mind, the potencies. So it goes beyond the normal five sense organs. It goes beyond right and wrong. It goes between light and darkness. So it's always a blend and ⁓ amalgamation of, you know, a way between dance between male and female and right and wrong. So therefore there is no extreme, you know. So that's why we call it a middle way.

Right. Okay. Just a quick pause in the episode there. If you're enjoying the podcast and getting value from these conversations, one of the biggest ways you can support Winging It is by leaving a five star rating all of you on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. It generally helps the show reach new listeners and keeps the podcast growing. And it's free and it only takes a few minutes. Alternatively, if you'd like to support the podcast in another way, you can also buy me a coffee over at buymeacoffee.com forward slash Winging It.

It's a simple way to help cover hosting gear and the time that goes into creating these episodes. And I seriously appreciate every coffee that I receive is only $5. You can also head to winginittravelpodcast.com to book your travel through my affiliate links. That just means that if you book your flights, accommodation or travel gear through those links, it helps support the podcast at no extra cost to you and allows me to keep sharing these stories from the road. And finally, if you know someone who loves travel, storytelling or meaningful conversations,

Please share the podcast, whether that's by word of mouth, sending an episode to a friend or posting it on social media. It really does make a huge difference. Right. Let's get back into the episode. Buddhism is obviously dominated by Buddha. So who is Buddha?

So Buddha actually, you know, many people nowadays seem to confuse seeing that the classical Buddha who passed away 2,500 years ago, who came with the, he is one manifestation in the human form. So Buddha is actually a state of mind, a state of awakened. If you are totally free, you are not afraid of anything. You are gone beyond hope and fear. That is the real state of Buddhahood.

Yes.

okay.

That's the pure dimension, that the primordial dimension. Because we talk of Buddhism in layers. So something very wealthy, rich, you know, with gems and jewels and all those limitless wealth you can have or AI or even like triple fold of AI, whatever in 23rd century. mean, all that kind of thing would be the next dimension, which is called the wealth abundance dimension. The other one is the nature as it is.

Yes.

Okay.

as it is, non-fabricated, non-contrived. That state of awareness is the real Buddha, the primordial Buddhahood. The second one is with all the abundance and with ups and downs and all that. The third one, in order to, the third dimension, the third layer is manifestation, someone holding a combination of that two, two wealth as well as something that's non-contrived. So in order to teach those values, you know,

So someone comes in the form of a person or it may even be that you will see a deadly falling and suddenly you see, life is so effervescent, you know, like the volatile, you must take it easy. So some things are non-tangible, know, some are tangible. So Buddhism comes in many different layers, actually.

Okay. And in terms of geography, which countries in this area are important for Buddhism? Where are all areas? I don't want to say countries, areas that.

Traditionally, think because ⁓ Buddhist ideas or Buddhist culture were actually originated in India and the Himalayan region and over in the later centuries, they moved down to the Sutric part. The first, you know, the fundamental foundational teachings went to Sri Lanka, know, Burma, Bangladesh.

and even Indonesia and all the way down, right? But then later, you know, because of persecution of the Buddhist practitioners or monks in India, then they fled to Tibet or some to Nepal or Kashmir, all those sites. So that's how like the Buddhism actually disappeared in India. And then it went on to the...

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

The following is really huge, particularly like China itself is a very populous country, And Japan and in the Southeast Asian countries and then maybe quite a huge number as well in the West. So Pure Land Buddhists are 500 million now. Pure Land Buddhists alone is 500 million. But I must say like it's not from a theistic point of trying to be discriminatory, but generally we as human beings,

Yeah.

That's a of people.

I think we are always reconciled. We are always reasonable. We are always rational. So we want ⁓ happiness for everybody. We don't want to see unhappiness or hurt anybody, your neighbor, irrespective of which caste, creed or race. So therefore, over a period of time, think people do, when they put their head on the pillow, they do realize that, know, was I a good human being?

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

You hope so,

Yeah, so I mean basically every human being asks that question irrespective of whether you are a Buddhist or not.

Yeah. That, that intrigues me on different levels in terms of like if you're criminal or you're hurting someone, how do I go to bed at night and think, yeah, I did okay today. I don't understand. Okay. Question here. The four noble truths. What are they?

Four noble truths are actually Buddhist teaching is all about realizing the truth. as if to say like you are living a life of falsity. So when you are focusing on the truth, why you focusing on the truth is because truth has the potential to make you free. Once you understand the truth, okay, it's...

way, way more profound than facts.

Right. Okay. Yes.

So facts has the tendency to ⁓ attach you to your ego, sense of concepts, your knowledge, anything, you know, it makes you stick. It doesn't let you go, let go. Okay. Truth is self-liberating. It detaches your ideas to, you know, various things. So therefore you become

Yes.

But

Yes.

more acceptable, you become more open, more broad minded in general human terms. But if now coming back to Four Noble Truths, so Buddha found out, actually he expounded that life as it is, is suffering. Yeah. In the sense that he doesn't, again, it has many layers. So when you say suffering, it is suffering of change.

Yes.

Okay. ⁓

Because as you know, a boy is born, he goes through various stages. know, there is suffering of being born, suffering of being ⁓ ill, suffering of getting old. There are, you know, like dementia, know, then weakness, then ill health, then suffering of death. So when you are facing death, so many people really do go through so many

bangs and sorrow, you know, even before the actual death. know, they die so many times. So Buddha said, first truth is that life is, but there is a way to end suffering. So he taught that antidote, the remedy to end the suffering. Okay. So you do good things and avoid bad things. Do not harm others. Do virtuous things. that

Suffering. Yeah. Okay.

That actually ⁓ liberates you, that takes you closer to the truth. So you will see the truth. Okay. And then he saying that there is a path. Okay. So it's in a systematic manner. You will be shown how like this, so that it will empower you. Once you start doing it, you get to come closer to the truth. so, so you're more enticed and empowered to.

pursue that path. And then finally, are really, because of the path and the teaching, you really get delivered or detached and you realize your full potential. So you bring closure to the...

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yes. It seems like a closure. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah

So you can come out of the illusion or the deluded mind. So you gain omniscience kind of thing.

Okay. Yeah.

I find that so fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I've got a few more questions. ⁓ this might seem a superficial question really. I've heard three terms, priests, monks, llamas. Is there a difference between the three?

⁓ Well, in a way, you look at it, looks appears to be Siddhāni Mos, but in our Bhutanese context or Buddhist context, it is different. I think the word Lama and Lamaism has been ⁓ distorted over translation ⁓ over the last maybe 200 years or so, I think. So Lama in...

Okay. Yeah. Right.

In our classical understanding is that there are two words, right? Lama. Lama. Actually it's Lama, but when it is written in English, it's said Lama. And then, and loosely understood as Lamaism is like some more specific Buddhist sect or something like that. It's not like that. ⁓

Yeah.

Traditionally, the years, what had happened is over the millennia, what has happened was, the latest Buddha who passed away into Nirvana 2,500 years ago, he's just an idea. He no longer lives. His teachings may be there in the form of scriptures, but we cannot connect to him directly. He cannot mentor us. He cannot coach us. But there is a lineage who Buddha taught, Buddha's disciple.

Mm-hmm.

Like that. So these traditions are kept alive by the Sangha. That's called the monks. They are the friends, they're the fraternity. The enlightened mind fraternity or the warrior, spiritual warrior fraternity. They are the monks. And then the Lamas are the supreme masters. They are the compassionate ones who sees the delusion of the disciple. And then.

right?

tries to shatter one by one and put a laser focus and then the disciple gets it, gets it and attends the path, know, realizes the path. So realizes one's full potential.

What I find interesting about what you say there is how it mixes with the modern day majority of the countries having the capitalist system, right? It seems like they contradict a little bit. The capitalist system, is material wealth, money, money, as opposed to Buddhism, which is almost seems completely opposite. It's weird how they sort of mix and work in countries like here or India, right?

The way I see it is like because Buddha taught 84,000 teachings to cater to 84,000, minimum 84,000 types of mindset or attitudes or behavior pattern or psychologists. So therefore I would not think that, you know, it is diametrically opposed to each other.

Yep.

Yes. Okay. Yeah.

You can still be a billionaire and still be a true Buddhist. You can still be a prostitute and still be a Buddhist. You can still be a hunter and you can still be a fisherman and can still be a Buddhist. It depends because each one is so different. individual is so different. But yes, climate change, extreme capitalism, extreme poverty, we may need to balance. That's why we have a

Huh, okay.

Right. Yes.

Yes, but.

the view called the middle part, you know? So even when you tune a guitar or something like that, That's nature, that's not made up, right? If it is tightened, the strings are tightened too much, you will not produce, that's too high. If you do quite loose, it will not produce good music. There's no harmony. So in order to get even a simple thing as a music, right?

So therefore that's what the true, what you call, essence of Buddhism. So we can, it's not like they're totally opposed, but it will depend on, you know, your karma. So whether you are rich enough and you, and actually to become rich, to use your creativity, hard work, whatever, and then you give back to society. But if you don't give back to society, then that may not be.

This is

too much, not much aligned with Buddhist fundamental.

Okay, that's very keen in today's world, isn't it? Okay, my last question is going to be if someone's interested in exploring Buddhism, where should they start?

Well, now there are schools, Buddhist schools, that would be mostly, I should say, in classical Buddhist, using classical Buddhist texts and all that. So that may be little taxing or maybe tedious or difficult for Westerners, general Westerners. But I see that many Westerners now come to

India, where like they learn the, the alphabet and they start right from the literature philosophy, you know, and then they come, come on to do the practice. So theory and practice combined together. So, ⁓ as far as I know, maybe we have this, ⁓ Simthoka Buddhist college, ⁓ Institute where I saw a few Westerners who actually

are already learning Buddhist teachings or for that matter even meditation and philosophy. But I cannot say for sure as of now if there is a separate institute totally dedicated and devoted to accept such students.

It's interesting, right, because I think those guys from the Western world would have probably quit their job, I imagine, right, because it really takes time to start, learn, and get into the mode of being.

And one thing, you know, it's fairly practical one. I'm saying it from, it's more pragmatic. It's like people embrace Buddhist ideas when they are fairly at a mature state of mind. They're like, you know, now they almost see that the suffering is going on and on. You know, there's no, the doctor, ⁓

chasing a tail kind of thing. So there's no end to No matter how much you earn, almost like drinking salt water. You cannot quench your thirst. Right? So then they say, ⁓ what am I doing? know, why am I struggling so much? And then they see like, ⁓ maybe there is a path. Well, let me try. So that is the stage. Even here in Bhutan, most of them,

Bye.

they would still get ⁓ attracted to those noise and colors and music and all that. Not the deeper profound ways of life. So Buddhism needs to, there are layers as I said, one is very, a lot of code of conduct, shave your head, know, walk in a certain way, beg your food, always pray and that kind of thing. Then the next level would be all sentient beings have always been.

Yeah.

your parents at one form or the other in your countless or million lifetimes. So you cannot hurt them. You must help them. Then you have come to the Vajrayana, the highest vehicle where you see like you have a very purified perception where you see everything as Buddha. You see every sound as Buddhist music or whatever, you know, the place as Buddha field. So therefore, like there's no prejudice. There's no filter.

So then like everything is so free, totally pure. So there is nothing like impurity. therefore like in a way anything goes, you know? ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's amazing. Okay. Yeah. I was only going to say to finish about the, the guys who asked like, what am I doing with my life? I think when you get older, I don't know if you grew this time becomes an issue because you've realized that the amount of money you earn doesn't matter because you're spending so much time getting it. So what's the point getting something where you can't even use it to get your time back? It seems like a weird loop of you can't win. I think that's kind of what I've realized going into my life.

late 30s, we say that time is an issue now where I don't want to spend it wasting it trying to earn money. So not really related to Buddhism, it's just related to life. ⁓

⁓

I'm sorry for interrupting, but the thing is, in the Western context, time is always considered very linear.

Yes. Yes.

Whereas in our context, the way we know time here is cyclical.

And then in the Western context, the time is considered finite.

In our case, past, present and future is in the now. It's in the now. So I say like, I'll make that much money. I'll put man on the Mars or any other Saturn or I'll, you know, like put a data center like that's like $10 trillion or whatever, you know. That's very short sighted if I may say so in the Buddhist context of time, because there's no future.

Yeah, I know.

Yes.

Or there's no past. Everything happens in the now. So, including the theories such as Big Bang never happened in the past. is not Big Bang is happening in the now. It's happening in the now. We have a fixed mindset, right? Because time is linear. It goes from zero to 12 or 24, whatever.

That means you're always president.

Bang. Yeah.

At the end of the day, know, in our day to day life, you know, in a normal human life, know, no matter how sophisticated you want to say or bring any amalgamation of Greek or Roman word or Sanskrit word or whatever we like to coin new words. But in essence, it's the same thing. You are saying Google, right? Google is a Sanskrit word. Yeah. Yeah. So, many nine zeros.

Yeah.

So it's saying billions, something like that, right? So it's always had that, it's like trying to stretch the human imagination of some sort. Yeah. But it's still limited. It's still limited. When you have a linear thing, when you say you don't transcend, you cannot transcend beyond suffering. If there's, if someone is right, it means someone is wrong. So there's always an argument. So you will never be free.

Yes?

So when you are between right and wrong

So then there is freedom. It's a win-win. Yeah. Nobody loses really. That's the way I see it. And everyone is happy.

in many.

That's the dream, right? Yeah.

So I am actually intrigued by John Lennon's imagination. There's no heaven. I think he was foresighted. He got that clarity. So he transcended time, he transcended national boundaries, he transcended ⁓ race, human race, religion, whatever. So that's what... ⁓

good human beings should be. Buddhas or any other East, it's just a word. We are human beings at the end of the day. We need compassion. We need love. We need kindness. We need harmony, peace. When you actually distinguish on the defined certain thing, it always sets a boundary. ⁓ So it doesn't break the boundary. It creates a boundary. It creates a wall. It creates our walls.

Yeah, I agree.

Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

There's so much more we could talk about. I should finish here. I'd like to thank you for your wisdom. I could talk to you all day.

My pleasure. ⁓ I

know so little and I'm still, I'd like to think I am a novice. I keep learning more than the textbook learning or reading my experiential learning through loneliness. As I said, it gives me much more freedom and liberty, ⁓ sense of detachment. So I guess, you know, through you, some of my

thoughts or experiences get transferred to your audience.

Pleasure.

it makes a huge difference. Head to voicecape.com for more amazing travel podcasts as well. And thanks so much for listening. I'll see you in the next episode. Until then, keep winging it.