I don’t even know if there are diners in the Canary Islands, but I do know that this week’s guest, Geneviève Pépin, slid into this diner all the way from off the coast of Morocco. Geneviève and I started off discussing the magical foods that are poutine (because she’s from Quebec City) and arepas (because they are delicious). Then she told me about how she went from being a loner as a child who wanted to be an artist to getting lost in the corporate world. In her 20s she became a voracoius traveler and wound up studying and then working in China for 6 years! I loved hearing about her experience in China, what she loved about the culture there, and what surprised her. Because she has lived in many places, Geneviève calls herself a free agent of cultural norms, so naturally, I had to ask how one does that. We then discussed some of her professional careers. She talked about getting your dream job and then realizing it was not right for her and then knowing when to leave. It was fascinating hearing her talk about coming to terms with your control issues and understanding your relationship with control. And we finished up by going back and forth about, as a coach, how do you spark change? Loved this one y’all!

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About the Guest: (Bio, Personal Links, Resource Links)

Geneviève Pépin is passionate about helping people go from busy & stressed to happy & productive, as a result of her own journey in the professional world. She is an accredited life coach (IAPC&M), certified mindset specialist, productivity and leadership development coach (Fortune 500 companies), and improv facilitator. Before coaching, Geneviève built her career internationally in event management and marketing, living, working, and traveling in 20 countries, in four different languages. She likes to enjoy a black espresso and a good laugh with friends, practice improv comedy, and spend time with her husband and two dogs in the beautiful Canary Islands that she calls home.

Connect with Geneviève and learn more:

LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/GenLIProfile

Website: https://nettolacoaching.com/

About the Host: 

Friends! Here's a somewhat stuffy bio of me:  

I am an author, professional speaker, coach, host, and entrepreneur. My first book, Leading Imperfectly: The value of being authentic for leaders, professionals, and human beings, is available wherever people buy books. I speak internationally to willing and unwilling attendees about authenticity, vulnerability, and leadership. My clients include American Express, General Electric (GE), Accenture, Yale University, The Ohio State University, and many others. As a speaker, I am doing the two things I loves the most: making people think and making people laugh! 

I host my own events multiple times a year. They are 2-day events called Living Imperfectly Live (and sometimes they are 1-day virtual events). They are a space where humans from every walk of life can come together to be part of a community on the pursuit of badassery. The goal is to help attendees start living the life we say we want to live.

Alas, you're here because of an idea I had a number of years ago and didn't think I was good enough to pull it off. I finally acted on it and alas Diner Talks with James was born! As you can see from what I do in my professional life, Diner Talks is alligned with everything I believe in and teach.  If this wasn't dry enough, and you would like to know more info about my speaking, events, or coaching feel free to check out my website: JamesTRobo.com.

Let’s Be Friends on Social Media!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamestrobo

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jamestrobo

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesrobilotta/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/JamesRobilottaCSP

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/JamesTRobo

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Oh my god that was amazing I'm great I'm so ready for the food and for the conversation

let's go by

yeah oh super excited Thank you so much.

I love I love that you are here I love that you're here with us you know it's funny I talked about disco fries in the intro I should have talked about protein being someone being someone from from French Canadian like yourself yeah and so I'd also just the fact that it's one of the greatest products on modern Earth

it's true especially after midnight for sure but what I when you said this comprises like how was that and you said cheese and gravy and I was like huh but I'm curious what what is the cheese and disco fries like is that specific is a specific

it's not a glorious cheese curd. just melted on top some diners do Swiss sometimes do American You can also ask them to melt a specific type of cheese but it's literally french fries with like, like squares of cheese like laid on top and baked and then they give you gravy on the side to dip it and so it is it's essentially a not quite a deconstructed protein but still that direction and it's it's never as good as the as the original.

I mean the cheese makes it very special. It's like we call it cheese that just squish squish because it actually makes like a sound because it's so fresh right like a bit between your teeth so yeah it makes it special I'm already learning

oh shoot I'm so pumped to be here you are here diner talks with James is this name of the show my friend and so the way that I always like to kick it off is to learn about what is what is a favorite late night guilty pleasure of yours if you have a food that if you were going to go out with some friends late at night and maybe have a few extra wines and you needed something to soak it up I don't even know if you drink wine but you know either way you know the kind of vibe I'm talking about here late at night Do you have a late night food that you sometimes indulgent maybe it's also just at home?

Yeah Um Well now that you say that the first thing that came to mind is added bias which is yes and I'm sorry for any avenues really in person listening right now if I'm if I'm mixing things right now but it's a it's let's say like it will be a tackle but instead of being like it's a fried cornbread that they slice and then they put an incredible amount have cheese in it? And then, you know, whatever you like, I don't eat meat. So then here they do it with like avocado and fried banana and like a lot of cheese in it. And then you just like eat all of this. And that's wonderful.

Yeah, it's like this fried corn bread sandwich.

Do you know about it

was so good? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I've had them before. They're delicious. There's a really famous Venezuelan restaurant in Brooklyn, New York live and they and that's basically all they made and that's what they were known for. And they're just it's just outrageous product. Right? Yeah, what about you? Yeah, I love that. I love that you know, uh, I'm a pancakes guy. I love a good stack of pancakes myself. So that's, that's been that's that's typically my move. Or I'll do a grilled cheese, a grilled cheese with bacon on it.

And pancakes like, do you do table syrup or maple syrup? Because that's a question.

So that is a that is a question that is asked by somebody who knows the difference it's what that question is right there my friend. That's from someone who knows what actual maple syrup is supposed to be and probably knows somebody who made it or formed it. So when I have the official maple syrup, I love to have that. However, most diners don't have like, the actual thing so you you know, whatever they put out is what's going on the pancakes.

I mean, that would be acceptable. That's delicious, right? Yeah.

So being from a French case Are you from Quebec? Or where are you from?

I'm from Quebec City. Quebec City, which

is a city the Italy of is the Italy of North assuming is the Europe of North America. Really? Right? Is this as far as like the old old beautiful city? So much culture? and stunning So did you grow up? Speaking both French and English? Are you predominantly in Quebec City? Are you only speaking French?

Yes, only in French I and I started you know, I was learning English at school. And then in high school, I got some additional English classes. But my English really, really improved when I just moved abroad. And you know, that's really how you learn the language, right? When you're in the environment, you have to wake up and your brain has to assemble sentences that are communicating your thoughts and then people understand them. Like that's really how I in my experience and learning if you're languages, that's really how you get to learn them. Because in framing in Quebec, it's very, very French. You know, you don't have you don't really have opportunities to practice English in Montreal. Yes. But in Quebec City, not really.

Yeah. Beautiful. That is, that's awesome. Yeah, for sure. Right? You You definitely learn the language once you jump in, right? It's kind of like that idea of did you learn to swim before or after you got in the pool? right?

Exactly. It's great to you know, it's great to know the basics before but really, you know, how do you move from conscious competence to unconscious competence? It's like by by failing by tripping, right? Like by like, just failing and failing and making a fool of yourself over and over again until you learn like that's, that's the process.

Exactly, exactly. Tell me what did what did a young jovia have growing up in? In? In Quebec City? What did you want to be when you grew up?

Oh, I love this. I love this because it can like I already see this this conversation like unfolding, and I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be an artist. Yeah, I was a loner. And I was like creative, very crafty, like creating, you know, comic books. And I was like, performing in my in my living room to anybody who would care to watch and yes, and well that got shut down pretty early on in my life. I'm going to be honest with you and I think that that's why now I love and I know we're going to talk about improv but that's that's why like the improv it's such a big role in my development as an adult is that I was I really repressed that side of myself because I was told that I needed to be serious a lot you know, and I don't know what this is for fun and then you need to work and you need to do things that are valuable for society and this is not right I mean, all from a good intention obviously like my parents were just wanted the best for me but I have learned to be the person I needed to be instead of really listened to myself and be my you know, bubbly and artistic self. And yeah, so that's, I know that I went like, real deep, right? That's that's the answer to that.

Yeah. Yeah. So you said that you were you said that you were a loner. And was that a This is a weird question, but I'm curious see how your answer was that a loner by choice? Like, did you intentionally were like, Hey, I just want to I just want to be me and my art in a corner somewhere. Was that was that an intentional choice?

Yeah. And I'm wondering, what's the best answer to that? Like, No, I'm kidding. No, yes, that is, I mean, it's just I'm still an owner. Like, I really, I really love to be on my own and do do my things. Of course, you know, I love people, and I love getting to know people and, and, and interacting and having great conversations. But you know, I'm an I'm a, I'm a social introvert, right? Like, I really like to, I recharge when I'm alone, or when I'm a homebody very much. And so yeah, by choice by choice. I, I just, I just had a lot of ideas that I'd like to create things.

That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. That's great. So when did the idea shift for you? And like, and what was that? Like, you know, we're kind of moving away from your artistic self, even though it's always underneath everything right? And everything that you do, but you kind of you kind of shoved it down a little bit, and decided to make some other choices?

Um, well, um, yeah, I mean, I studied business, right, which was the obvious choice where, you know, that was opening a lot of doors. And then when I was in my early 20s, I started traveling, you know, the classic going backpacking throughout Europe, and, you know, getting to experience things and so on. And I really fell in love with that. And exploring, exploring leading people from all over the world, like, again, using languages at that time was French and English. And, and yes, and then that led to, you know, business, an interesting choice would be like, Okay, what about I get interested in China, and in the early 2000s, you know, China, I mean, China has been rising for a long time. But, you know, that was an interesting choice, and so on. And then things happen, where I got a scholarship to go and study there. And I went to study Actually, I want to study like that. That was a funny story. I wanted to study economics in China. So I had to go study in English. And then I didn't get the full scholarship. And when talking with the scholarship person, they said, Well, we prioritize people who want to learn the language, because we do want to encourage people to learn the language. So we can have people that can communicate, you know, and do like create a bridge between two countries. And so the next year I applied to learn language, even though I never thought I would ever learn Chinese. I was like, what, like, but then I got a full scholarship. So literally, they were paying me to go and spend a year I was 23, you know, is to go spend a year in China and learn Chinese. It was like, yeah, you know, time of my life. And I did and I fell in love with the language I really did. And actually state two years. That was my first two years in China, but yeah, so Um, so yeah, and then, you know,

from where we were learning Mandarin, or Cantonese, or wondering, in the in

the north, yeah. And in Tianjin I and yeah, and that's fascinating. You know, when you start, like, in the beginning, it's, it's, it's, you know, I again, it was completely out of my imaginary that I could ever understand what those little drawing like meant, right? And then, at that time, even, like, you know, there was no, there were no smartphones, like, I still had a paper dictionary and takes so much time to look for words in Chinese. And that paper dictionary was like five minutes for every character, like, it was ridiculous. But then after a few months, like I could talk to, like, order myself, like, a coffee, or I could talk to people a little bit on the street, I could read some signs, you know, and it did just, like opened up my world really, it was like, wow, like, I can speak to people that I could never have access to otherwise. And yeah, I, I set myself a goal. I was like, within two years, I want to be able to read a book and wait for it.

That's amazing. That's amazing. Now, here's the thing with that I've noticed with foreign travel, and you've traveled a lot more than I have. So I think that you will confirm this. Governments have problems with each other people rarely do right and so when you when you went to China, you know, especially you know, I live in the United States, and we hear about like China's enemy number one right now. Like that's, that's what we're going at, that's what we're going after, but that's you know, that's what we're concerned about, and everybody hear about it in the elections and etc, etc, right now and so, and you're able, if that's all you ever hear, you're able to start painting a picture about a person over their number. That picture is frequently way off and incorrect. So I would be curious for you Talk a little bit about what? No What did you learn about Chinese Chinese people and obviously you didn't meet every Chinese person so you are you will have to generalize a little bit but as far as being over in that culture, you know, what were some things that surprised you that you fell in love with? Because you spent some time there?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I actually on and off, like between Canada and China and my studies and working I spent almost six years there and, and I worked with, you know, I work locally like with, you know, Chinese people, and I even I even dated a Chinese person, like what I want to say by that is that I interacted in multifaceted.

Me here in the

I'm sorry, that still we held on the hands, obviously, you know, but you know what, what I want to say is that, like, I was fascinating. I love Love, love, love, love the Chinese culture, I find that. Yeah, I find that this is, this is different. It was so interesting with cultures like, and I know that, like, I'm taking a tangent a little bit, but I'm gonna get back to your question. But, you know, I think that as humans, we always have a bias to think that people will understand us, you know, like, or, or we see something like we see something that looks like something we're familiar with. Therefore, it must be something like I'm familiar with, like, an example is, I walk into a grocery store and I see bread, therefore, I think that that brand will taste the same as the bread that I know, right? And then I buy that brand. And I find out that there's kidney beans in it. And that's not used to like, that's not what I'm used to. Like, that doesn't work with my sandwich and I want to do right or, or, and so it's it's so interesting, because I find that a lot of cultural shocks is because of that, even even after I moved from China to Spain, I thought it was like, Oh, you know, I'm guessing that the, you know, I adapted to China, like adapting to Spain would be easy. Ah, that was another complete total shock, you know, and so, yes. So this being said, um, what I loved about China, about Chinese culture, is that curiosity, I found that it was, it was really, it was easy to have, because inhibitions are different. So you know, things things that are taboo for for my Canadian, you know, cultural culture itself would not be taboo for some people that I met over there, and then vice versa. So I find that it was it was getting into weird conversations, like real fast. So that was funny. And, and, and, yeah, I I, that was that was just really interesting, too.

What were some things that were not as, like taboo over there that may have been taboo for you growing up.

Um, well, I'm trying to find something that is like that, there that may not that would not be triggering, because like, for example, like, people would tell you like, right away, like telling somebody that they would have extra weight would not be something taboo, okay? Where in Canada if you would walk up to somebody and say, Hey, you have like, I judge it you have extra wheat? It would be something that would not be really polite, right? I mean, again, I don't want to generalize I mean, I am generalizing just by default because that's my experience but I want to say that that's my experience like it's it may not be the experience of everybody and of course China's a huge country. And but that's something that you know, that that that that created interesting conversations where you know, like somebody would say No, you won't fit in these bands like you have way too much extra fat and I'm like thank you I feel good about myself I see you want to sell your product. So yeah, something like that, you know, asking for somebodies salary would not be taboo at all. Where and again in Canada or where I grew up, it would be very taboo, you would not talk about how much you earn or how much you make. So yeah, so stuffs things like that and going to tie it together for ladies was very you know, you just meet you just met let's go through it together. You know, I that's again, that's an that's, that's my experience. I'm not saying that it's everybody. Canada would not happen that way. You know,

that happens all the time with drunk American women, but I don't know that in Canada. Yeah, that's fair. I love that. That's awesome. And that is fascinating to think about what is taboo in some cultures and what what is taboo in others, right. We see that with sex all the time, right, like sexes. Sex means different things in different cultures and how we're going to talk about it and and what Not right. In some ways, like, I know, America is considered pretty naive, when it comes to sex are pretty prude when it comes to some things around around sex, whereas that's in many other countries, it's, you know, far widely talked about or bodies are shown off regardless of size and regardless of, you know, what's being covered or not right. Yeah, so I mean, it is it's fascinating to learn about just what is taboo and, and also why certain things are taboo. And so, this become an issue that we all decided to get self conscious about.

That's the thing, I think that that's what is so fascinating, you know, when, because there's no big deal. You know, again, like, if I take back the the, okay, okay, okay, here's another example. Again, with with the taboo, or like, you know, what's polite with simple like, you know, like, when I was, yeah, after living there for a few years, and something that I learned to do was, you know, if you, if you eat like, something with bones, people will just gently just bend over to the table and just spit out the bones on the table, right? That would be normal. In fact, like some some of the tablecloth were made of plastic, because that's, you know, would just throw away a tablecloth. And then I went back to Canada, I went to a restaurant, and I didn't, you know, I didn't remember that. I didn't, I couldn't do that. And I, you know, I was eating fruits with some, like, fit in it. And, and I started, you know, spitting on the floor, and people were like, what, what are you doing? I was like, Oh, no, don't do that here Do you like and what I want to say is that it's no big deal. You know, sometimes, like, as you say, you know, talking about sex, we're talking about how much you make or, you know, like, or talking about different things like it, oftentimes, like we create the awkwardness around things, that it doesn't really need to be there. And I think that's so fascinating with different cultures in general, that, that we just created, we create those barriers, and then when you find out that, oh, yeah, I'll have that barrier at all. Right? So is that what I believe that my life was not true? Like, or was not like, was not an absolute truth? And it's just I think that's when you, I, there's such a great opportunity for curiosity, because you need because if you're not curious, and if you're not open, and you don't laugh it off, like, there's a huge place to be, like triggered or said, Oh, my God, I really don't like it. And I need to go back, which, you know, that's okay. Like, I mean, if somebody feels like that, and they don't feel comfortable. I know that that's a choice. But what I want to say is that, if you do lean in, like there's such a great opportunity to learn and to have different experiences into and to get curious into. Yeah, to learn from just other ways of being, you know, yeah. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. What a cool opportunity for you to have to have the immersive experience that you had and in other cultures, right, it's one thing to go. And I mean, I encourage everybody who is at college and universities to go to go and study abroad if they have the opportunity, right? Yeah, if you can take even three months somewhere else is an eye opening, mind blowing experience. Yeah. Six years altogether in China is incredible, right? I mean, you can you can go back there and exist, like you said, you learn this language that two to two individuals on our continent, in North America will look at those symbols and be like, what is actually going on what direction I'm supposed to read them in another direction to write and I'm smiling, right? Like, that's, you know, like, we always had the phrase, it's all Greek to me, and I never understood what that was like, like Greek is easier than what's happening in some of these other places. But still, it is incredible that you are able to have those experiences how how did some of those moments help you grow? Like you said, you know, you kind of you grew up a little bit of a loner, artsy kid, wanting to go to school for business and whatnot, but, you know, how did those experiences change you?

Yeah. Um, well, I would say that I found another side of me because when you put yourself in an environment where you know there's little to no benchmarks like like, again, like what do you what you know, you buy bread and you think it's gonna taste like bread doesn't taste like bread, like, like, you know, you talk to people and and, and there's different perceptions that often clash with the perceptions that you may have and and so you you're not define any more, or, well actually, the norms of cultural norms that you're used to your normal is like it put in jeopardy quite quickly. And therefore, you come to a point where I found that you're not defined by that anymore. Yes, of course, like there's many things that are very rooted in me and beliefs and norms that that I still follow because of how I grew up. And where I grew up, and when that's normal, but I find that there's, there's that three, I found a lot of freedom, because again, I'm still you know, okay, I'm French Canadian. Now, I'm sure that since we've been, you know, since we started talking, I probably said something weird in English, like, or I probably said it, and weird pronunciation or whatever. And I used to be very self conscious on that. But now like, I'm just, I'm just like, English, my second language, and I don't, like I find freedom and being like, Look, I'm a little bit of an, like, I come from a little bit everywhere, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm not, I don't feel like I'm defined so much by norms, and I can a box because I've, I've kind of broken that. And if there was, you know, there was a process where like, you're like, Oh, you know what's happening, but then I found a lot of freedom and like, Oh, actually, I can do things that maybe if I would have said, If I would have stayed in my original environment, I would have not taken the risk to break because there was not so many opportunities. But now when you're abroad, like there's so many opportunities, and and you meet people, and another thing is that you meet so many new people, and people are like a mirror of you. Right? So like they just what the type of relationship that you create, is, is a mirror of how you show up in life. And I find that, again, you know, being a little bit of a free generous in terms of not having, you know, being able to break the mold. And let me to understand really quickly like, what what type of person would I be, you know, what I am be able to have, like, very easy conversations with and and what did I like, and so on? Because I didn't, I broke away from what was expected of me if I would have stayed in the mall. I was and Does that make sense?

Yes, I love that term, you're a free agent of cultural norms. It's such a cool, that's a cool, it's such a cool way to put it. And I love that you got to that phrase. I don't know if you've ever said it before, we should say it again. Cuz it just really, it paints a really cool picture. And so that's, that's awesome. That's awesome. You know, on your website, you talk about how you go through all of these big transformations where you land your dream job, and you're like, this is it, you tell your friends, I can't believe it. Life is set, good set, here we go gonna grow old and fat in this position and be fine for the rest of my life. And then, and then it turns to shit. So tell me a little bit. Tell me a little bit about that, you know, you know, walk me through one of those experiences and kind of what happened to find, you know, getting what you thought was the dream job and then finding out it wasn't?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I love this. I love that, how you express that? And? Yes, well, well, yeah, I really did find my dream job. And, and I was I've always been very driven. And I was like, you know, I'm gonna give it all I got. And I really, and I really did, and, and I, you know, what I wrote my website. Like, I really remember waking up one day, and I was, you know, I was in another city for interviews. And, and I, you know, I was told that I got the job, and I woke up and I and I, I texted a friend saying, Yeah, you know, starting like tomorrow, and I'm gonna wake up in the morning, knowing that I'm going to work to change the world, like, I really wanted to have a positive impact that was really important for me to spend my time in my personal resources in doing that. And, and I gave it all I got, and it was a startup type of business. So, you know, it's like, yeah, there's definitions of what you do. But also like, it means that you kind of do everything at the same time, you know, there was and, and yeah, and within nine months, I didn't, couldn't get out of bed anymore, you know, and I was, yeah, I wouldn't see the point. I was completely burned out. Let's put it like this. And at that time, I said, Well, okay. The environment, just I know, objectively, someone could say the environment was not optimal in which I was working. And I was like, Well, I was lucky enough to be offered a new job with people that I loved environment that was very positive and a job that I loved. And I was like, great. So problem solved, right? thought that I would get like old and well fed and in the other job but now it's okay I'm going to nd it's going to be the other job and and problem solve and then I rebuilt my you know self esteem and and myself through that job and I yeah and and I started you know I started as a as an HR manager I'm sorry an event coordinator and then I grew up as the head of department events and within you know within two years I was again burned out and then I was like well hold on like you know i i don't have a toxic environment like I had before and yet some of that I forgot to say but yeah like some of the symptoms of the anxiety from from the first experiences that I had started an eating disorder and in my late 20s like that it was really like a result of a way for me to gain control and in these centers were not going away and they were coming back stronger and I was really confused because I thought well yeah like now it's not the environment you know so maybe just maybe it's overall maybe it's I need to go away from China right? yeah so um one day you know I'll skip the drama but I really snapped I was like I need to I need to get out of here and and at the time my boyfriend now has been was in in Spain and and i i came to to visit him and well actually I came to visit him with all my stuff and no no ticket back but yeah visit

arrived on Christmas Day surprise I live here now and yeah and then again long story short it quickly I found another another job here and I was like great you know now it's a new environment like completely new environment different fields and I started from scratch and I was like super excited to make it my you know that's gonna be the experience what I'm going to really make it and so on and within a year and a half I was coming back home crying and I was like okay but like that's ridiculous you know like what what's going on I in the beginning is because like there was you know toxicity and DNA and the environment after that is because I was working too much I was you know, always the culture and now like I change not only did I change company role people I work with their background is not even the same professionally or culturally I'm changed I changed the language I changed a continent I changed everything I could possibly change and the same things are happening except for the way that I think right except for how I deal with situations and that really like hit me in the face like if I was run over by a truck like it really like was a moment where I was like oh wow, okay, like it was everything pointed in me I was the only common denominator into all of the experiences that I have had and yeah and and you know, that's how I started my personal development journey and and you know when I some of it came back when I was an intrapreneur because again you know, you just work and work and you do whatever you know you do whatever you you can to to make it work and some of the some of the exhaustion came back and and and I was like it's not it was not even about having a job right like it's really about again like I continuing with that with refining the mindset and letting go of the limits and the things that were just coming in my way were holding me back from just really like living my life and enjoying what I was doing without all that stress and anxiety. Yeah, yeah, I Yeah,

well, the journey I'd even buy a ticket to that ride friend. Ticket to that ride. Thanks for Thanks for letting me Give me free admittance on that. That is, that is quite the roller coaster. And so I want to come back to a few things that you said along the journey. Because I think a lot of people reach that that breaking point where they where they just like this isn't for me and whatnot you can tell is unhealthy or this is whatnot. And a lot of people will say, well, that means I'm the problem, right? It must be something that I'm doing I'm wrong. and whatnot you had you had the courage to change and realize that maybe it is the work environment also. But you know, you mentioned this idea of you know, I wanted control and I wanted to I wanted to be in a less toxic place in some of the places that you were Describing were a little bit toxic and when do you know when do you know and maybe you've talked about this with some of your clients also but when do you know it's time to make a decision to leave? Because I think some people make the decision a little quickly to leave when they can make the decision to advocate for themselves in the moment to write like we don't need to this sucks I'm out right like that's, that can't be how it always is. Now and so you know for you, how do you find how did you find that balance of like, you know what, enough is enough I deserve better or enough is enough, I'm gonna walk into my boss's office and say something needs to change right? Like that moment of self advocacy whether it's leaving or going into an office and saying that I need X Y or Z otherwise I'm leaving now I'm right you know like how do you reach that point and where does that where does that come from?

Yes, yes well I first of all I completely agree with what you just said in terms of it's not always others it's not always you like there's not a one size fits all and and and it can always be like you know I'm just gonna leave and also it's not always like oh I'm just the problem like it it's it's it's really it really depends and but what I find that really helps is first of all first of all get to know yourself like that's that's part of my like my message My well I said that right weird my message and get to know yourself get to know your thoughts get to know what you're telling yourself Is it serving you is not serving you so that's a first like and I say this less oh you know it's an afternoon activity no but like it's actually it's a lifelong journey you know get to know yourself but it's really important because then you can have more clarity in terms of okay is it am I creating some of those patterns? Is it in your What do I tell her a What do I not tolerate and so on so that can provide a lot of clarity and then like knowing your values like what is important to you knowing where you going? Right so so that you can have you can you It helps with it's a basis for decision making like is it like for me is it about is it about you know, is it about the money is it about achievement is it about providing value to people and then really knowing that knowing like what's what am I willing to tolerate? What am I not willing to tolerate? What is most important if health is your health or family time with your family is your highest value and then like work is not in your you know, it's a five value and so on well that's that's you know when you're really aware of that that becomes and your work is becoming a barrier to your health or your your you know, time you spend with your family that becomes an easier decision. But really again, knowing yourself knowing where what you want to accomplish and what is really important to you what are your values? Like start there because when you do that work a lot of things around you become a lot clearer. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yep for sure. Yeah, it's easy to see things around you and be like well this needs to change and this needs to change right it's a lot harder to look in the mirror and be like what actually matters? Or what maybe needs to change inside here too right? Like it's not just everybody else's work life balance is not always works fault. It's also what are you doing with the time outside of work how are you bringing yourself joy outside of work so that you show up to work in a different attitude as opposed to my life's miserable outside of work and now I'm going to go back to dumpee work you know, it's why they call it work not play. Right and and so yeah, I think I think that is a really a really wise assessment on on what to do so for you specifically, when you were in some of those moments, what did you learn you know, during each of those big transitions, how did you become closer and closer to being able to name your values and what were some of those values that you realize mattered to you?

Hmm, yeah, well, I'm gonna be honest, like I wasn't aware like I wasn't really aware until I really started my personal development journey. Like that's why I think that I was you know, one factor and then oh no, that's not it well, that there gonna be something else and but really, again, when I started identifying that my thoughts were not necessarily a truth for sure. And that was a big moment. And then what was the values that were really important to me and again, creating impact, loving like having fun in my life, expressing myself was really really important. And love is really important to me like love in terms of yes you know, and you know, romantic relationship but also just loving like being surrounded by I people that is that are very supportive, that I can support and really that interaction and exchange with people is very important to me. And, and creativity is extremely important to me too, in terms of being able to being able to Yeah, create express myself have a voice. And I think that that's what also brought me to intrapreneurship because that was a no brainer for me. And another thing is that I also because I love the international context, but also I have a family in Canada, I really want to create something online so that I could be able to travel. Because also family is very important. I know that I just like, put everything like this is important. This is important. But I felt like I named a lot of things. But um, but I think that, you know, my highest value right now is really, I would say is creating joy, like having joy in my life, and helping people like, you know, just co creating co creation of joy.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

And that's what improv is about.

That's what improv is about my friend. Exactly. Yeah, we're all in this together. We have no idea what we're going to create, but we're gonna do it together, and we're gonna have a damn good time doing it. Give us one suggestion, and we'll jump right on that for you.

Yeah, and we'll make it imperfect. Like I love when you talk about this, because you talk about this so well, like the imperfection and and, and finding the beauty in that because this is just life, like imperfections life. Now life isn't perfect. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. And I that's what I love about improv. You know, I heard Tina Fey say once, like, it's improv, it's gonna it's gonna stop, like, that's okay. Like, it's gonna be a perfect story. And that's okay, like, sometimes gonna be great. And it's so fun. It's not and we're good with that.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know. I'm sorry. Sorry. Go ahead, please. No, I mean, I mean, you know, I'm sure you have a lot of stories about about that, but I'm curious to hear what you think of that. You know, I know you have a lot to say around the imperfection. I just love talking about that,

ya know, for sure. I mean, yeah, I think we as humans, as we were talking about before we got on here, I think we as humans can't learn things from people who are perfect, we can only learn things for people that were imperfect. And so that's why I really respect you for for sharing some of these imperfections and some of these you know, moments that you know, you don't, you don't necessarily put on LinkedIn, you don't put on the resume, you don't put on whatever right. But you embrace them. And I think that's I think that's really awesome. And diving into our imperfections is, is cool, because that's where our quirks are. Those are the things that allow us to stand in our own independent humanity and realize that that we are we are different, but difference, okay, right. We don't have to be an excellent sheep. We can just we can just be ourselves and show up every day. And you know, there's a good chance that we're enough so what if we just lived like life like we were? But yeah,

oh my god, tweet that right now. That's wonderful. Yes, there's a good chance that we're enough so it may as well live life like the

ability john Yeah. Yeah. The the thing an interesting through live between a lot of your, your your pitfalls that you fell into, and each one of those jobs was also this idea of control, and not having control. Right. And he's talking about control as in, you know, potentially your eating disorder, you named it as being a control issue, which eating disorders frequently are now they are around the idea of having control. And so I think it is a pretty hysterical that you decided to go into something like entrepreneurship, where you definitely have control. But there's a whole lot of let's see, right? With improv, yes, that with with assuming with entrepreneurship, yes, you have an idea. Yes, you're your own boss. But there's also a lot of this high anxiety and a lot of that as well. And there's times where you just need to try something you need to create a piece of marketing and be like, let's see if this draws customers. Let's do offer this for free and see if that sparks more insight or intrigue, let's do it, right. Like there's a lot in. There's a lot in entrepreneurship that yes, it is a great field for people who love control. It is also a horrible pill field for people who love control. It's kind of like what your relationship with control is. Because some people who love control, really appreciate that a paychecks gonna show up every two weeks pretty much regardless of what they're going to do. Right. And that's control of safety and security. But we all can have we we want to have control over different things as humans, and so I'd be curious to hear about your relationship with control. Roll I also love the fact that you do improv despite that you love control. Right? Right. Those kinds of things are it's it's funny so, but control is something that we, we all have different relationships with. And I'm curious what your relationship with control is.

Yeah. Wow, I love that I'm just writing notes. I'm like, Oh my god, there's so many there's so much to that to that relationship. First of all, I want to say that I do talk about all of my flaws on LinkedIn. And that's something I love to talk about. Talk about your flaws people relate to that. No, and well, okay, here's the thing, you know, that I said that my, I felt, I felt like my artistic side, you know, I just pushed it down because I thought that, you know, that was not good enough. And I didn't really have the, the right to explore that because I was not serious and so on. And I think that that's when I really created that other side of me that needed to be in control, right, I needed to control like, I needed to, you know, not be too loud, I needed to because I'm pretty loud person. And like, you know, I'm I have a lot of bubbles inside. And then sometimes I get over enthusiastic and that's just who I am. Like some people like that. Some people like it less like I'm you know, that that's just what it is. But um, you know, like, I needed to be like, you know, incorperate like you need to be you, the environment gives you hints that you need to be a certain way. And, and so I think that, you know, when you said relationship with control, I think that being a lot of the stress and anxiety, it came from controlling myself, right, trying to control myself in terms of like, Oh, no, I like I probably look like a fool, then I'm, like, I need to now do that again, or, yeah, this was not this was not okay, or I left your loud in the meeting, or I shouldn't have talked or whatever. And let's not do that again. Right. So I started like, really like that, that that relationship of really like trying to control myself, because, you know, that it's so interesting, because when you talk about intrapreneurship like, a lot of the things you cannot control is, is outside of you. But actually now my perception is like actually the only thing you have control is you you know and and the more you work to have control on on your story, the story you tell yourself the more you work to have control on on your thoughts, or at least manage your thoughts and you know, become good buddy with them so that you can see which ones serve you and which one which one don't serve you. And then you can have a lot more control on yourself and so on. But at that time, that was really like, how I would have control this is to beat myself up, beat myself up and punish myself and, and really gain control of like, you know, that little fire and bubbles that I had inside of me like it couldn't come out. Because that was not appropriate. So So and seriously, like I

I had such a journey through through play of like allowing giving myself permission to one day like, you know, I live on a small island, there was an opportunity for theater. I'm not I'm not a trained Actress at all, but I was like, why not? You know, let's just try it. And then I got into theater and then I got a nudge of, of hope. Like improv sounds really cool. Like what about I do that but then again, I live on the small island. There was not really opportunities, especially not in English. And and I wanted to you know, start in in English at least. And, and so therefore I started a group like I started a meetup and then I started you know, long story short, I started creating an improv workshop every week. And now it's been it's been years but, um, but just that improv has such an ability to like when you try to control that's when you fail, like when you are in the moment, and when you really like lean into the Yes, and and when you say yes to ridiculous things that you really don't want to say yes to but you're like, Oh my god, like, let's just do it, right? Like, can you just play with it? Like, again, I'm saying that you really don't want to say yes to because you're trying to control the situation, right? And that's when that's when the most wonderful things happen. And you know, by repetition by practicing and practicing it just, it's, it made me so much more comfortable with not having so much control, controlling myself, I can always control like where I'm going, right? I can always control where we're at what approach how I'm going to co create with the situation, right? I need to accept Yes. And add to it, how am I going to co create with what is in front of me whether it's a line or whether it's a situation, it's in a conversation. So I can always control that. But I cannot control what the outcome would be. I can only contribute. And I think that Like by practicing and by by doing that in a safe space of brina in in with improv you know it really allowed me to see like how can I actually apply that to real life and and and of course you know it's not everything is always like you know rainbows unicorns and and laughable and stuff like that but I think that when you apply those skills in real life then you become a lot more comfortable with with not having control but yet again you always have that control of yourself when you learn how to manage yourself obviously. Yeah, I went on a tangent there but I hope that that answers a little bit.

I love me a good tangent

fam. So I can't hold people accountable to things that I do. So no, I think I think that was that was beautiful you control it's such a fascinating thing. We all have a different relationship with it. And there are some people that right like this. We sometimes live in a culture right now where the phrase and important pardon my French here, but like zero fucks happens. It's ironic because you speak French, you know, that's not actually French. But anyway, that's a sad phrase. Yeah. Anyway. I remember when he actually talked to somebody, it's like, that's not friendship. Yeah. But either way, you still get what I'm saying. But like this phrase of like, giving zero fucks right? Like that's, that's impossible. And people who have no worries and no cares whatsoever. I mean, that, that sounds like what an island paradise might be. Right? That's, that's, that's what they try to sell you when you book vacation packages in Jamaica. And, and places like that. It's like, come down here and there's no worries, it's like, this is not, that's not a realistic life to live. Because at the end of the day, I need you to care about something, right? And who and you do care about something. It's figuring out what you care about. And most importantly, what I love, what you said is that figuring out what can you control, because so much time is spent on worrying about things that we cannot control. That doesn't help. And so we just sit there and spiral. And that's why you know, a word that comes up and in your bio, and a word that certainly comes up in my bio, as well as anxiety, that's where anxiety happens, anxiety happens by us worrying so much about things that are probably outside of our control, why don't we spend time worrying about things that we can control. And that's a tough place to get to, because it's a hell of a lot easier to worry about stuff that you can't do anything about. Because if you worry about something you can do something about, that means you actually just need to go ahead and do something about it. But you know, turns out change and work are kind of like the same word. And so people don't love that. And the work that you do is is very inspiring, you know, I do a little bit of coaching myself, where you work on getting individuals to own where they currently are, and also own where they want to go and and dissect the difference between the two, by holding them accountable to making some different choices or writing their story in a different way, or the patterns in which they speak about themselves or about opportunities that might be in front of them. Right that this is what great coaches do they hold you accountable to the life you say you want to live? And that is, first off, it's beautiful, the work that you do. And it's also really hard to get someone to change, because people have to want it for themselves. So what have you noticed in in some of the work that you've done around ways to spark change, and others and also spark change in yourself?

Yeah, yeah. Um, first of all, I agree with you, I think that you know, first you cannot change them better, who doesn't want to, right? Like, I mean, that's why the coaching relationship is such it's, it's, it's a, so much of a partnership, because it's something that you know, we're we're buddies here, like, we're co creating something together, like we're walking, you know, together and Yes, yeah, I'm gonna be here, you're also you're also going to be here and therefore gonna do the work for you, you know? So that's for sure. And I really well, I when people have more clarity, that's my experience. When people see things clear, clearly for themselves, then the way forward becomes a lot easier, right? So I use a I work with a mindset system that is calling them and that your limits that is that was created by Dr. Brian Grasso, and Carrie Campbell, shout out and that that's a matter system that has specific pillars and specific exercises that we do so that so that one can really learn to understand themselves and really see it for themselves. Like again, it's not like I see this in you. Is that true? It's more like, like, I'm seeing this for myself. I'm seeing my patterns have become so obvious to me that it's so obvious that hold on a second, you know, I wake up in the morning, I'm thinking of like, how busy I am and how, how annoyed I am at my coworkers and I want to live a life of fun and peace, like Hold on a second, like, here's a, you know that there's a disconnect there, it doesn't work, right? And so, so when you see that for yourself, like when you gain that awareness, then after that, exactly as you said, it's about owning that because none of what you think of what you do is necessarily wrong. is all about is it serving where you want to go? So or is it not serving where you want to go? And, um, and that like, as you said, you know, it just it takes it takes courage to own all of that, it's like, you know, what, I was on the right track, and I just need to own it. Like when, when I when I discovered what I what I can control, it also means like, okay, like then I need to take responsibility for it and sometimes it's also to to recognize that I was doing the best that I could with what I had, but that was not really, you know, serving me that was not really like I'm doing air quotes now because you know, that was not good for me Let's burn like this, right? Like, it's kind of like I do have a again, it's not it's not a fault, but again, like just realizing that like, just to like, Look, it's okay, I didn't know better and now I see things clearly and I can move forward. And I think that when we have that awareness and the ownership because yeah, awareness Oh, like alone, it's not it's not enough. But the awareness and the ownership from there taking action is is a no brainer. And I find that again, to answer your question, I get it. When we like, these are the first steps and then from there is like, Okay, well then what action and then like, there's a variety of action, like the options is not a problem, right? And it's really about Yeah, being accountable. Exactly. And then when you just keep doing that, like gaining awareness, because this is also like it. This is a Yeah, there's so many layers to the onion, right? So it's, it's not a one time thing. But you know, taking awareness, okay, I noticed that okay, well, I own it all. Yes, right. I accept it. And here's what I'm going to do about it. Right. And when you when you create it, not free, but when you own that process, then you just continuously, just like leveraging your strength, and you're not so strange, so that you can move forward and take action.

I hope you all are listening, because that was beautiful. That was That was awesome. So so well said, Jen, I love it. And yeah, I agree. I agree that power, the power of ownership and realizing that you are the one who grants yourself permission to have ownership. No one, no one gives you that no one comes over and taps you on the hidden beliefs. You have ownership over the decisions in your life and what you do with it, right like let's let's do something we need to recognize for ourselves. And a lot of times people play because of extraneous circumstances that sometimes earn them the right to play but a lot of times people play victim right? And and people have been through some tough things and earned the right to play victim in their lives. And so I'm not I'm not at all trying to say that people who play the victim are are a problem. But it is important for us to recognize that at some point in time in our lives, we have to be the ones who take ownership for whatever it is right whether it's being a good parent being a good friend being an entrepreneur being a good human being following our dreams doing things that matter to us whatever right there's a whole bunch of things where at some point in time we slowly recognize that we take ownership at each of those pieces one at a time as we recognize Oh wait, I am in control. And I'm not just sitting here waiting for somebody now and so but that's a hell of a process to get to the self esteem is there like the devil on your shoulder like now you're not good enough bro now now you can't deny you're not smart enough you're not hot enough you're not rich enough you're not successful enough you know? Whatever enough right? You got you got somebody tapping you on one side. That's punch of the optimist inside your brain in the face. And it's not it's not helping. So here's my last question for you friend is first off and thank you for thank you for kicking it with me. But I'm wondering you know, knowing what you do and how you do it, who do you love to work with? Who were into like, what kind of individual Are you seeking out and and like, and just in general, Like who? I'd be curious to hear your answer also like who should see coaching, right? Because coaching is different than counseling and people who need counseling don't necessarily coaching and people need coaching don't necessarily need counseling, I think at one point at many points In our lives I think we need both but they're not always at the same time but you know I'm wondering for you as you think about it, like who what kind of clients do you typically work with? Or you know do you hope reach out to you and whatnot and who needs coaching

yeah yeah that's a great question and I and I think that I you know, I feel like a few years ago would have said an answer and now I would say something else because I find that there's a there's a variety but I would say that here's the common denominator first of all, I mean just like if we're looking for demographics I work with professionals so I work with people that are really driven and that and and that want more right they want to perform better they want to reach more success like I think that genuinely people who see coaching is that I find that you need to be ready as exactly as you said like you need to be ready to be honest with yourself like like stupid honest with yourself you know you need to be ready to like to like found like the the mud pool and I can just go like and like swim in it you know and and and and because it's it's necessary and the coat like you know as a coach you you go in the pool where the people you know yeah it's dirty you know, but you need you as a coach again I go in this poll alone because then you're like okay, well you know that that's not that's not how it works so so I would say that um, yeah, like I find you know, people who think like oh, I've lost myself or I feel like you know, I thought I thought I would be happy but I'm not you know, that's definitely like part of my story and I find that there's a lot of people that follow the path that that thought that they that they would love and they and finally they're like Hold on a second that's actually not I don't you know, I don't feel fulfilled or I don't feel I feel like I'm just like filling my calendar with a lot of things and and I'm just always busy and not actually enjoying my life and and yeah and then again you're ready ready for it ready to Yeah, okay, I'm going to do I'm going to do what it takes I'm going to go and see those dark sides and and the grade sides as well and I'm ready to to to walk to walk my talk and to do it I would say just seriously do yourself a favor and go through that journey because this is this is one of the this is an amazing journey to take and this is so empowering and so ironically like jumping in the mud and and and being willing to say like oh wow like I didn't know better is the most empowering thing because then you know and then you can I mean then you know we always in the dark at some point and we're always learning all the time but but this is how you can move forward and this is how you actually become the best version of yourself one day at a time so yeah, yeah, that's it that that that that answer came from my heart. I don't know if that was really clear, but that definitely was what I think

Giambi of I loved that answer. And I love it because you're right if you want to you got to be willing to get in the pool you got to be willing to get into the mud and if you're not willing to get into the mud then it may not be time for you but at the same time you need to think about why don't I want to get in the mud What am I and that is probably the time where counseling is helpful hmm back to the things that are stopping me What are the what are the you know what has happened in my past that maybe I haven't worked through that I still hold on to that stopped me from moving forward. The code is a really great taking you from where you are to where you want to go and and counseling is really helpful for you to understand better who you are and the stories you've been reading about yourself and recognizing that those aren't always the kindest and so I love this and I'm so glad that we got to hang out together today my friend can you tell people where they can connect with your wonderful self?

Yes Well I love to hang out on LinkedIn a lot so you know I know there's a lot of ease in my name on it you just like copy paste and look for it on LinkedIn and reach out I really love to interact with with professionals over there and also if you want if you want to learn more also you know of course you can jump at my on my website at net total coaching. I know that you put it earlier days and Yes, come and say hi. And I'm also starting an effectiveness habits masterclass as soon as free is absolutely free and I just really want to help people put all of the practices that I've helped my clients with and really like communicate like how easy simple practices and you know, questioning with yourself can help you create more effective habits and also including the yes and no Life, which is a practice I talk a lot about. So you come on my LinkedIn and we'll talk about that and you can jump on a masterclass when you're when you want.

Yeah, so I love it connect with her on LinkedIn, it's all the coaching any TT o la coaching.com. Make sure that you check out all of those places you'll get thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you. Thank you. I had a blast. I sweat It's so warm in here. I'm sweating. I had a little like fan but it's the battery is off. But I just had so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for listening to my blab. That was great.

I loved it. I love being with your friend. Thank you so much, y'all. That was my time with Zhang Vf. She is an incredible human being and I can't wait to fly over to the Canary Islands hang out with her. Do improv bring her some protein from North America. Ideally, Canada while we eat a rapist. I don't care. We're gonna stay up late. We're gonna have a conversation. It's gonna get deep. And I can't wait. I hope I hope that I get to meet her in person one day. And so thank you, my friends. I'd love to meet you in person one day one to one outside. Now let's be friends. Let's go to a diner. Why not? But until the next time we do get to hang out my friends. Please think about what Giambi was talking about were doing that soul work? What matters to me? Why does it matter to me? And what are my values and is where I'm currently in life serving my values and building me to a place that I am excited about and proud about. And if it's not, let's start figuring out how we can start to try to turn the ship. It's not going to happen immediately. But it is worth the time because you are worth time. My first appreciate spending time with me and the next time we get to hang out y'all keep putting small talk in the face by asking better questions. You all take care.