Are you wondering, "Do I have to tell my date that I'm queer or trans?" or "Should I tell my partner if I'm questioning my gender or sexuality?" In this episode, we dive into the fluidity of gender and sexuality in relationships with our special guest, Nicole Penrod (she/they). Nicole, an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, dating coach, and couples counselor on our team at the Relationship Center, shares their expertise in navigating these deeply personal topics.

We begin by addressing the crucial question of when and how to disclose your queer or trans identity in dating scenarios. Nicole provides thoughtful insights into the factors to consider, emphasizing personal safety and authenticity. Whether you are settled in your identity or using dating as a space to explore, this episode offers guidance on approaching disclosure in a way that feels right for you.

Moving into established relationships, we discuss the importance of sharing shifts in your gender or sexual identity with your partner. Nicole highlights the necessity of open communication and the potential pros and cons of hiding such significant aspects of yourself. We explore strategies for discussing these changes, maintaining trust, and fostering an environment of mutual support and understanding in an intimate relationship.

Nicole also covers practical ways to explore your sexuality or gender within a relationship. From engaging with community resources and media to journaling exercises and considering ethical non-monogamy, they offer a variety of tools to help you navigate your journey.

By the end of this episode, you'll understand how to handle sensitive discussions when your gender or sexuality is in flux.  Nicole offers invaluable insights to help you develop the confidence to embrace your true self in your relationships.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

02:54 - Do I have to tell my date that I'm queer or trans?

26:34 - Should I tell my partner if I'm trans or queer?

43:21 - How do I explore my sexuality or gender in a relationship?

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Gender Reveal podcast

Gender Stories podcast

Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma, and Consensual Nonmonogamy by Jessica Fern

Alok

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Looking for some help finding your person? Visit relationshipcenter.com

From the Relationship Center, I'm Psychotherapist, Couples

2

Counselor, and Dating Coach, Jessica

Engle, and this is I Love You Too,

3

a show about how to create and

sustain meaningful relationships.

4

Josh Van Vliet: I'm dating and

relationship coach Josh Van Vliet.

5

On today's episode, we're going to

talk about fluidity of gender and

6

sexuality and dating and relationships

with special guest Nicole Penrod.

7

We're so happy you're here and please

remember that this show is not a

8

substitute for a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional.

9

Hello and welcome, dear listener.

10

We are thrilled you're joining

us today for this conversation.

11

And on the podcast today, we are

joined by special guest Nicole Penrod.

12

Nicole is an associate marriage and family

therapist, dating coach, and couples

13

counselor here at the Relationship Center.

14

And they specialize in helping

anxious folks build self

15

confidence, and especially love

supporting socially anxious folks,

16

trauma survivors, unconventional

couples and Queer Creatives.

17

And so we're so thrilled, Nicole,

that you're able to join us for

18

this conversation about the fluidity

of gender and sexuality in dating.

19

So welcome, Nicole.

20

Nicole Penrod: Yes, thank

you so much for having me!

21

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, we're

so thrilled you're here.

22

As I mentioned, we're going to be diving

into questions around fluidity of gender

23

and sexuality in dating and relationships.

24

And so we're going to get

into all of that in a moment.

25

Jessica Engle: moment.

26

Yes.

27

And, uh, before we get started, if you

love our show, dear listener, will you

28

please share an episode with a friend?

29

By doing so, you'll help us

help more sweet humans like you.

30

So in advance.

31

Okay, let's dive into

this wonderful topic.

32

Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

33

And it just occurs to me to ask, before

we jump into the content, Nicole,

34

is there anything else that you want

to say about who you are, and what

35

draws you to this topic in particular?

36

Nicole Penrod: Yeah, absolutely.

37

So, I am, as you mentioned, an

associate marriage and family therapist.

38

I'm early in my career.

39

And one thing that really drew me

to being a therapist was wanting

40

to show up for people like me.

41

I have been in a lot of therapy

myself and doing a lot of the gender

42

and sexuality 101 for therapists.

43

It's tough to pay to educate someone else.

44

And so I think for me as a non binary

clinician, I identify as queer.

45

It's a really big part of my life.

46

It's a part of what I talk

about in my own therapy.

47

I think wanting to be able to share

some of what I tell my clients and

48

also what I have been able to gain

from the good therapy that I've been

49

in over the course of my life with

folks who are listening to this show.

50

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I love that.

51

That's so real.

52

It's a hard position to be in to

have to be educating the person

53

who's supposed to be supporting you.

54

So I, I love that you're bringing this

to folks and giving folks a resource

55

for how to think about this, how to

engage with this in their own lives.

56

And and also helping to highlight there

are folks out there who can support

57

you in this exploration who are very

knowledgeable, uh, in this area.

58

Beautiful.

59

Well, I know one of the questions that

you get asked, I think, from time to

60

time, and we hear from clients at our

center for sure, is kind of thinking

61

about when dating, what do you disclose?

62

Do you disclose, like, do you have to

tell your date that you're queer or trans?

63

How do you think about that?

64

When to tell somebody that

you're dating about that?

65

And I'm curious to hear

your thoughts on this, Nic.

66

Nicole Penrod: Yeah, it's a huge question,

and it definitely is one that comes up

67

quite a lot, especially for folks who are

in a place of transition or questioning.

68

I think some people who have been

really settled in an identity for a long

69

time might feel more confident being

able to say, Hey, this is who I am.

70

Take it or leave it.

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And I think for other people, when it's,

I might be this way, or I am utilizing

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dating actually as an opportunity to

experiment or experience different

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ways of being in relationship, Then

it's a little bit trickier to know

74

when do I say something, what do I say,

and what am I expressing to people.

75

I do think there are a lot of different

factors that go into this decision.

76

The Relationship Center

operates out of the Bay Area.

77

I see quite a few folks in person, and

I think for myself and for a lot of

78

the clients that I see, this does feel

like a generally, asterisk, caveats,

79

obviously, safer place than a lot of

other places in the United States or

80

internationally to disclose early.

81

Hey, I'm transgender, or I'm non

binary, or I'm in the process of

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transitioning in one way or another.

83

And so then it does kind of become a

personal question, an ethical question,

84

a question of certainty or uncertainty.

85

But there are a few

different schools of thought.

86

One school of thought being you

should disclose upfront before

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you even start seeing anyone.

88

Put it on your profile if you're doing

online dating, mention it on the first

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date if you're someone in person, right?

90

Throw it all out there.

91

I think that approach can be a good

one if you're someone who really is

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not interested in wasting any time, and

you're saying, this is who I am, if the

93

person that I'm with can't deal with

that, I don't want to be with them.

94

If you are a trans person and you are

ideally looking to be with other trans

95

people, that's a fairly common thing

that you'll see, right, the T for T

96

relationship, then that could be a

good place to do that, right, and say

97

early, this is me, this is what I want.

98

And if you're worried about safety

concerns, sometimes sharing early

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actually can be more beneficial to you

because you're not putting someone in

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a position where, justifiably or not, I

would argue in many cases not, they feel

101

betrayed in a way that they then feel

they have to take out on you in some way.

102

That's one way to look at it.

103

It's not a one size fits all because

there's a lot of other schools

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of thought that say, well, you

don't have to disclose anything.

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You are who you are.

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You're moving through the world as

you're moving through the world,

107

especially if you are considering

transitioning, but haven't done so yet.

108

If you are thinking, well, okay, maybe

I am bisexual, but I'm not totally sure.

109

And I am sure that I'm attracted to men.

110

So I'm going to date men.

111

And then if it comes up, it comes up.

112

Then, yeah, I think you have more

wiggle room and there is more

113

space to say, I would rather build

trust with someone first and then

114

feel more comfortable disclosing.

115

So one example in which that might be,

um, A better way to go for you is if

116

you are dating kind of out in the world,

but you are not open about this piece

117

of yourself, about your sexuality, about

your gender, about something that might

118

be changing, then it might actually

be safer for you socially to say, I'm

119

going to wait until I trust this person.

120

And if it's going to be serious to

decide whether or not I want to disclose

121

something, because if I share it too

early, then there's a risk that that

122

starts getting out, spreading around.

123

And people are going to

know before I want them to.

124

I

125

Jessica Engle: really appreciate you

laying out these two schools of thought

126

and, and what I'm hearing in there is

that safety is a consideration in both

127

schools of thought, which is sad and hard.

128

It's a hard truth, um, to being

trans or queer in the dating world.

129

And I really appreciate how you're

pulling out the nuances of that.

130

There are different

ways to approach safety.

131

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, that's super

thoughtful and, and makes a lot of sense.

132

If you're someone who is in the process of

exploring your identity or your sexuality,

133

that's like a, I would imagine a very

tender moment, a very tender exploration

134

that you want to kind of potentially keep

very close to your chest, so to speak.

135

That you're sharing it with people that

you're very comfortable who know that

136

they're going to support you and love you.

137

And that you know, it's almost to me

like any dream that we have that, you

138

know, anything that we're exploring in

our lives that is, is precious to us, If

139

we share that early with the

wrong folks, it can be hard.

140

You know, people may not believe

us, may not, uh, honor and respect

141

us, may not support us in what

we want or what we're exploring.

142

And, uh, so yeah, it makes complete

sense that especially in that early

143

tender spot, you might be very

discerning about who you share that with.

144

Nicole Penrod: And to couple that

with what is already an extremely

145

vulnerable process of dating or entering

into a relationship with someone

146

where there are already all of these

questions of, does this person like me?

147

Will they care for me?

148

I think To me, it's not so foreign an

idea that gender and sexuality can be

149

fluid and things can evolve over time.

150

And I actually liken it a little

bit in the dating process, too.

151

Like, will I be able to find someone

who likes me even if I my body

152

changes in some way, whether or not

that has anything to do with your

153

gender identity or expression, or

will this person still like me if my

154

interests and hobbies change, because

that was a thing we connected with.

155

I think it's a big and vulnerable

question of will this person like

156

me for me, that I imagine a lot of

people can actually relate to, even

157

if they're not on some kind of journey

in this particular area of identity.

158

Jessica Engle: That's such

an incredible framing.

159

I haven't thought of it in quite that

way, but I'm thinking about the process

160

of finding a partner as, I don't

know, almost a spiritual practice of

161

like, where is there a space where my

impermanence can be honored and protected?

162

And I hear what you're saying, it's like,

yeah, sexuality, gender, fluid for a lot

163

of people, and also so many other things.

164

And I think we, you know, with

our clients, we do hear really

165

difficult stories on the daily

of, well, my last partner left

166

me because X, Y, or Z changed.

167

So I really appreciate how

you're holding this frame of.

168

It's in incredibly vulnerable

and I think that also gives us a

169

vision for what to aim for, right?

170

Like, like I said earlier,

where is the space, right?

171

Where is the person or persons?

172

Where my ever-changing nature is loved.

173

Josh Van Vliet: person, a person,

where my ever changing nature is lost?

174

Nicole Penrod: I think I just

have one more piece on the kind

175

of early stages, dating, what do

I disclose, when do I disclose it,

176

which is the question of language.

177

in the queer community, labels are

a thing that come up all the time.

178

I think it depends on what corner

of the queer community you exist in

179

and where you are looking for dates.

180

If you put up a little personal ad

type thing on the app Lex, that's

181

going to be really different even

just in the language you're using

182

than if you make a profile on Grindr.

183

And you're aiming for a different

kind of a person, usually.

184

Regardless though, I think there are a

lot of, you know, labels, some of which

185

feel more rigid than others, that I

think both are very useful and can also

186

make this process feel more challenging.

187

If you're not totally sure where you're

at, or you're still kind of moving

188

and sorting it out and, you know,

Trying to make space for yourself.

189

Labels can feel challenging, but then

I think also I'm even just referring to

190

it here as the queer community, right?

191

Or queerness.

192

That is such a big, wide umbrella

that exists the way that it does for a

193

reason and that holds a lot of space.

194

Um, I think about terms around

gender, gender queer, gender

195

expansive, non binary even, that

hold a lot of things underneath.

196

Even trans feminine can mean a

hundred different things, depending

197

on who you're actually asking.

198

So some labels, I think, can

feel very constricting and

199

relieving to get to, right?

200

When I realized, oh, I'm a lesbian.

201

That is much more rigid than my

previous understanding of my sexuality.

202

And it felt like such a joy to get

to that place and be able to use that

203

label and be in the community and feel

like this is the right thing for me.

204

And with gender, I often just

like throw a bunch of question

205

marks out into the world.

206

I say non binary because

people tend to understand that.

207

But I've used genderqueer in

the past, I've used gender non

208

conforming in the past, um, I've

used kind of femme adjacent.

209

It really just depends on who I'm

talking to and what I'm trying to convey.

210

But I think there can be space for

both, this is who I am, or this is

211

the community I'm in, or this is the

kind of person that I want, and for

212

that to feel like it has structure.

213

And there can also be space for what

I always really like to think of

214

as a great expansiveness, of there

is more to me than words can hold.

215

And so I think if you can locate some

kind of combination that works for you

216

or locate the language that makes you

feel the way that I feel talking about

217

these things and being able to say like,

this is who I am, there's space for more,

218

there's space for change, and I have

a foundation to work from, that to me

219

makes this whole process a lot easier.

220

Josh Van Vliet: That's beautiful.

221

That it, it makes me think about

what you're naming around labels

222

and how there is both sometimes

223

Jessica Engle: Sometimes

224

Josh Van Vliet: sense of security,

a sense of belonging, right?

225

To be able to say this, this is me.

226

I am this.

227

I belong.

228

I, I, I now am part of

this community, right?

229

That is organized around this

particular way of describing

230

ourselves, of identifying ourselves.

231

And also the

232

what I hear you saying is not getting

so attached to a particular label that

233

You lose sight of the expansive

possibility or like just that, that label

234

cannot, it may capture an aspect of how

you experience yourself, but it also

235

may not capture a lot of other things

and leaving room for both is a really

236

important part of this exploration.

237

Jessica Engle: lot and meaning for both,

uh, is a really important part of this.

238

And I guess I'm wondering, are

you seeing that as helpful?

239

It sounds like you're saying

it's really helpful for yourself

240

in the process to hold that.

241

I'm also wondering if

it's helpful for others.

242

Like how might somebody implement

what you're saying in, say,

243

for example, a dating profile?

244

Nicole Penrod: Absolutely.

245

I think it is extremely

helpful for other people.

246

If it's something that you want to put out

there, right, especially if we're going

247

back to one of those schools of thoughts

that says, hey, put something in there

248

up front, whether it's the whole story

or part of the story, and give people a

249

chance to understand you in the context

of your gender and sexuality early on.

250

In a dating profile, again, it

depends on what kind of app you're

251

using or service you're using.

252

A lot of them do have spaces for

you to put down your gender, your

253

sexuality, your pronouns, and

you can experiment with that.

254

You can play with it.

255

You might not want to put down an

explicit, this is my gender, but you

256

might then use Different pronouns to

indicate, okay, there is some kind

257

of gender something happening here.

258

And if you talk to me, maybe I'll

tell you more about it, but you know,

259

a little bit up front or okay, I'm

putting myself under the queer umbrella.

260

And if we get closer and

there's more trust, I will

261

tell you what that means to me.

262

Because that's a question I really

actually encourage clients to ask

263

potential dates and to ask themselves.

264

Um, even if you use a label that has

a lot of history or that seems to

265

have a very clear cut definition,

you still have to ask yourself,

266

how does that operate for me?

267

What does that look like

and what does it mean?

268

And can you convey that to another person?

269

I think that's a skill that takes

some developing and can make a huge

270

difference in the connections that

you're making with people and just how

271

confidently you're representing yourself.

272

Jessica Engle: I love too how the way that

you're presenting it, it feels like it's

273

a, um, You used the word playful in there.

274

I used, it feels like a playful

kind of beckoning forth of intimacy.

275

Kind of like, yeah, I'm

going to use this word.

276

And there's a lot that could mean,

and I'm not going to necessarily give

277

you all of the information, because

that's a place where we can meet and

278

actually really get to know each other.

279

Um, so I appreciate that.

280

Uh, and I hear what you're saying

in there in terms of the, there

281

may be some words, but, um,

282

Josh Van Vliet: but

283

Jessica Engle: Really, anyone

needs to ask more in order to

284

really understand that individual.

285

I do have one other question going back.

286

So you presented these two

schools of thought, right?

287

Disclose up front or gain

trust and disclose later.

288

That is a, something that somebody

needs to come to on their own.

289

I'm just wondering if you have

any guidance on how somebody

290

decides which way is best for them.

291

Nicole Penrod: Mm hmm.

292

Yeah.

293

And I'll also quickly add one more

piece, which is the third school of

294

thought says you never have to disclose.

295

Especially if you've medically

transitioned, especially if you're in a

296

position where, like, you're passing as a

gender, you don't want to talk about it.

297

That one I think really is a

mileage varying type situation.

298

It's not something that I would

necessarily recommend probably to a lot

299

of my clients, but a lot of my clients

also are people who are saying like,

300

this is a big part of my identity and

I can't imagine being in a relationship

301

without it showing up in some way.

302

I'll just kind of share that

to you in case people are

303

like, what if I never want to?

304

Don't have to because no one

can make you do anything.

305

Um, I feel like it's just

very situation dependent.

306

In terms of how to actually have

that conversation, I do think that is

307

also something that can look a lot of

different ways and is very easy to say.

308

I think with all communication stuff,

right, you should talk to them.

309

And then that's the end of the advice.

310

And so I do tend to get a lot of clients

coming in saying, how, what do I say?

311

How do I make those words happen in

a way that feels authentic to me?

312

What I like to think about with a

conversation like this or any kind of

313

intense deeper early dating conversation

that requires some amount of disclosure

314

is to really think about what you want

to accomplish with the conversation.

315

Know ahead of time what you

do and don't want to disclose.

316

And don't approach it apologetically.

317

That's something that I feel like

actually comes up quite a lot, the

318

sense that people are feeling like they

have to apologize for who they are.

319

I know you liked me and I know we were

getting along really well, but I have

320

this thing that I have to tell you

and I'm really worried about it and I

321

don't know if you'll like me anymore.

322

Right?

323

We're coming at it from an approach

of, there is something wrong

324

with me that I have to tell you.

325

I don't love that.

326

I don't think it's fair to the

person who is making the disclosure.

327

And I also don't think it's fair to

the person receiving the disclosure.

328

There is a kind of projection of

judgment that happens there of, okay,

329

you are going to think less of me.

330

If we don't have evidence to support

that, I also don't think that ever feels

331

good to receive from somebody else.

332

I encourage folks to frame it in a way

that you would frame kind of important

333

things to you that you'd like to

share with the people in your life.

334

If you have examples of that

in your own life, right, like,

335

Hey, I am changing career paths.

336

This is something that is exciting to

me and I'm going to talk to my friend

337

about it and let them know, Oh my

gosh, like I'm nervous about this, but

338

I think it's going to be good for me.

339

And so how am I going to navigate the

twists and turns of this conversation?

340

Or, okay, in this case, Hey, partner.

341

We've been on three or four dates.

342

I really like your energy.

343

I don't like to get further past this kind

of earlier dating stage without letting

344

someone know there is this important part

of me that we haven't really discussed.

345

If you're happy to answer questions

about it, I think mentioning

346

that can be really helpful.

347

If it's something that you're willing

to or open to hearing, um, confusion

348

about, I think that's also fair, right?

349

Hey, I'm genderqueer.

350

This is what this means to me.

351

If you have questions about

that, I'm happy to talk about it.

352

Also, if you don't want

to field questions, that's

353

a good thing to say, too.

354

Hey, this is who I am.

355

This is what it's like.

356

I've had a lot of people

doubt me in the past.

357

I've had a lot of people kind of

come at me for it, so I really hope

358

that you can accept this about me.

359

We can talk about it more, but I just want

to let you know that that's where I'm at.

360

I think those are all fair approaches,

but my number one piece of advice I think

361

really would be to not count out the

conversation before it's even happened.

362

Jessica Engle: Yeah.

363

I mean, I think that's brilliant.

364

Right, so I love that you're, you're

encouraging the person sharing

365

to check their own projections

before going into the conversation.

366

And,

367

Josh Van Vliet: um,

368

Jessica Engle: I also, it feels

to me like that is a secure

369

attachment approach, right?

370

In secure attachment, we assume the

other person is going to be there for us.

371

Emotionally, we don't project that

they're going to abandon us in some way.

372

Um, which also, there's some great

research that shows that assuming

373

the other people respond well

actually increases the chances the

374

other person will respond well.

375

Josh Van Vliet: well.

376

Jessica Engle: Um, yeah, so I, I just

love that, that strategy and, and

377

also getting clear on your boundaries

before going into that conversation.

378

I really hear in there that in some

cases some people might be happy

379

to kind of educate the other person

about both who they are but also,

380

you know, queerness in general.

381

Yeah.

382

And some people might not.

383

They may have had the, you know, gone

through a lot of strife, as you mentioned,

384

needing to be the educator in every room.

385

And so I really appreciate

you naming that.

386

It's also okay to just be like,

yo, I'm not really available

387

for a lot of education here.

388

I trust you can find your

way to some resources or

389

whatever it is for that person.

390

Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

391

I'm curious because I think there was a

part of your earlier question that maybe

392

we didn't get to yet, which I'd love to

circle back to, which was When you were

393

laying out those, those different options

of how you might, how one might approach

394

disclosure in early dating, whether it's

disclosing up front, kind of in the dating

395

profile, or kind of waiting and seeing

and disclosing when you feel comfortable

396

and ready to do that with somebody

once you've got some level of trust

397

established, or, or never disclosing.

398

Do you have any advice for how somebody

chooses which route to go down?

399

Nicole Penrod: Yeah, I feel like, and

Jessica named this earlier, a lot of

400

it comes down to felt sense of safety

and what you want to prioritize.

401

Some of it is going to come down

to, I think, a level of confidence.

402

For some people, it will just feel

authentic to them as a person to say,

403

this is who I am, take it or leave it.

404

And that might be a personality thing.

405

It might be a values thing.

406

Totally.

407

It might be that they're in queer

community spaces a lot and there's

408

not even really an option to express

yourself as a closeted person in the

409

dating world because people already know.

410

When we're looking at the more questioning

piece or someone who is maybe beginning

411

to socially transition gender wise but is

not interested in medically transitioning

412

or someone who identifies as non binary

but presents in a way that still very much

413

aligns with their assigned sex at birth.

414

Sure.

415

Then the question becomes

a little bit trickier.

416

And so I would encourage folks to make

a decision based on what resonates to

417

them in terms of a felt sense of safety.

418

Is there a concern for physical safety?

419

Is there a concern for emotional safety?

420

How does your community show up for you?

421

How do your own past experiences kind

of color what you've been through?

422

Do you have someone trusted in your

life that you can talk to about

423

how to make this decision, right?

424

It might be a really close friend.

425

It might be a therapist.

426

It might be a coach.

427

Like, how do I, which of

these is right for me?

428

Can we draw some pros and cons and

kind of sort that out together?

429

I, at this point in my life, would

be inclined to go more towards the,

430

this is who I am, take it or leave it.

431

But that's because I have a lot

of lived experience being out.

432

And probably earlier in my journey,

I might have said, okay, I'm going to

433

hold out for a little bit more trust.

434

and develop that.

435

Um, so I would also encourage folks

very on brand with this episode to

436

allow for fluidity even in terms of how

they are showing up in this process.

437

To say this might be what works for me

now, I am going to, as an old mentor used

438

to tell me, hold it with an open palm.

439

So I'm holding it in my hand but I'm

not clutching it or gripping it tightly.

440

I'm allowing myself the space

to move and change as I want to.

441

Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

442

it reminds me a little bit of,

exposure therapy where it's like,

443

if, if we're looking at this thing

where we're still exploring this and

444

maybe saying this on a dating profile.

445

Feels very, very natural.

446

Overwhelming, right?

447

It might feel very scary, very

uncomfortable, just like, just like

448

a somatic experience in our body.

449

Like, ah, like that feels like a lot.

450

That's probably a really good signal.

451

That's too much.

452

That would be kind of going outside of

my window of tolerance, so to speak.

453

Uh, and that, let me start over here

where it feels a little bit like you're

454

saying a felt sense of safety where,

okay, there's room for me to play here.

455

I can kind of engage here and explore

without feeling so uncomfortable

456

that, um, I'm really going to be.

457

dysregulated at a high

degree as I'm doing this.

458

So yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

459

Is there more that we want

to explore around, uh, dating

460

or should we , move into the

conversation around relationships?

461

Nicole Penrod: The last thing that I would

want to add is knowing your own limits.

462

And also, I always really, really

tell folks being in community as

463

much as possible is really important

because safety is going to look

464

different for different people.

465

I am white.

466

I am femme presenting.

467

My voice matches the way people would

expect me to look in a lot of cases.

468

That does very much increased

my felt sense of safety just

469

moving through the world.

470

Um, and so when we also look at the way

transphobia presents itself in the United

471

States, when we look at intersections

with race, when we look at intersections

472

with class, I feel like we're able

to see kind of a broader picture.

473

And that's part of why this advice

is so deeply not one size fits all.

474

I think people do have genuinely different

lived experiences of safety or danger.

475

So that feels like an important piece

to adhere and knowing who you're in

476

community with and how your community

is collectively, if sometimes

477

fragmentedly, deciding to approach

some of these issues, I think can be

478

very helpful, if not more helpful than

just like listening to me right now.

479

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, it

it makes a ton of sense.

480

And, and I think to what you were

saying earlier, Jessica, it is

481

also a sad truth that that is.

482

Part of what, uh, what folks need to do.

483

Jessica Engle: talking about

484

Josh Van Vliet: we've been talking about

kind of early dating at this point.

485

And I'd love to shift now into

what happens if you realize

486

you're queer or trans and you're

already in a relationship?

487

And I think there are kind of a

number of questions to explore around

488

that, but I think maybe the first

one is like, do you tell the person

489

that you're in a relationship with?

490

How do you tell them?

491

Like, how do you think about that?

492

Curious what your thoughts

are on that, Nick.

493

Nicole Penrod: My initial

reaction is a resounding yes.

494

Talk about it if and when you can, um,

with your partner, especially if this

495

is someone that you're serious about, if

this is someone that you see yourself, or

496

maybe this has already happened, right?

497

Living with, having kids with,

having a pet with, moving through

498

different stages of life with.

499

My hope, and this is, uh, this

is the utopian world, right?

500

That in any case where we have a genuine,

healthy relationship and connection

501

with someone else, you can tell them

about different aspects of your life

502

and yourself that are changing and be

met and received with love and care.

503

The complication is, obviously, that

there, I think, is a lot of, and

504

in many cases understandable, fear

that that doesn't get met with care,

505

understanding, and love, and that it

does put you in a position where you

506

might have to choose between yourself

and an exploration of yourself and

507

the relationship that you're in.

508

in some cases.

509

My feeling is that that decision

will eventually get made for you.

510

Especially if the new identity that

you're thinking about exploring is, for

511

example, a sexual identity that doesn't

include your partner or you're realizing

512

maybe I'm not attracted to this person,

maybe compulsory heterosexuality, right?

513

The socialization that I grew up in

pushed me to choose this person when

514

I don't know that they're what I want.

515

This is complicated, of course, by,

okay, maybe someone is moving into

516

bisexual or pansexual identity or is

queer in some other way that still

517

includes their partner as part of that

definition, but that also might This

518

is like the word of the day for me.

519

Be an expansive experience of other

ways to love and experience desire.

520

I would still think in like 99 cases

out of 100, this is a conversation that

521

should happen at some point or another.

522

Because what we see is someone will

hide it and then we start developing a

523

lot of internalized shame Something is

wrong with me, something is bad about

524

me, I am turning whatever emotion I'm

experiencing inward on myself, and that

525

self blame and that internalized shame is

then impacting the relationship anyway.

526

It's getting in the way of having

authentic connection, it's getting

527

in the way of health, happiness,

vitality with another person.

528

So in most cases, I would say yeah.

529

Talk to the person.

530

You can absolutely do some more

thinking and exploring first.

531

Do some journaling.

532

Read some books.

533

Talk to a trusted friend.

534

Explore the history of the community

that you think you might be part of.

535

Yes.

536

And at some point, I think

that's where we usually end up.

537

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I love, that if

we don't share authentically what's

538

happening in our internal world, in our

539

hearts, with our partner, like you're

saying, it, it, it's so disconnecting.

540

It, it, it almost ends the relationship.

541

I mean, this is a dramatic way of putting

it, but it almost ends the relationship.

542

Right there, right?

543

Because we're no longer

current with each other.

544

We're no longer being open hearted

and vulnerable about the ways

545

that we're changing and growing.

546

And and it's, it's basically impossible

to have a real partnership on top of that.

547

And it also makes sense that it

would be a very scary conversation

548

to have for some folks, right?

549

If you're, especially if you're

thinking, Does this mean the end of this

550

relationship you know, with someone that

you probably love very deeply, even if

551

you're no longer attracted to them or,

or like you're saying, right, you're

552

realizing, oh, I'm, I'm actually attracted

to other folks that doesn't, this group

553

that doesn't include this person anymore.

554

And there can be a lot of grief around

that, a lot of heartbreak around that.

555

But not talking about it

doesn't make that go away.

556

Jessica Engle: Uh,

557

Josh Van Vliet: just.

558

Delays it or, or kind

of puts it underground

559

.

Jessica Engle: Yeah, and I'm just thinking about when things go

560

underground, you know, in our offices

as therapists, we see people struggling

561

with substance abuse or other behavioral

addictions or compulsive behaviors.

562

Um, there may even be a move

towards violence within the

563

relationship in some extreme cases.

564

Um, yeah, just, you know, our systems.

565

do the best they can to

handle a lack of truth.

566

And sometimes what that

looks like is, it's not good.

567

It takes a lot to dig out of.

568

So yeah, I really appreciate

your stand for truth here.

569

And I also want to acknowledge, you

said, you know, 99 out of 100 cases,

570

you're going to say, yes, there's

going to be cases where the answer

571

is no, you don't talk about it.

572

And I'm guessing, and you can tell me if

this is what you're thinking of, Nick.

573

Again, this comes back to safety.

574

In some relationships, it's

actually not going to be safe.

575

To name a queer identity,

a gender fluid identity.

576

Is that what you're thinking

of in terms of exceptions?

577

Josh Van Vliet: in

578

Nicole Penrod: Yes, that

was what I was thinking.

579

And I think the reason I said 99 out

of 100 is that in cases where you are

580

very certain both that this identity is

something that's important for you to

581

explore and that it could threaten you

in some way in your relationship, that

582

could be a cue to end the relationship.

583

I feel like that one out of 100 is this

is a relationship I need to stay in

584

for my safety in one way or another.

585

And I cannot have this

conversation with this person.

586

Jessica Engle: Yeah.

587

That makes perfect sense.

588

And I'm hearing 99% of the time it

really is a worthwhile conversation.

589

Yeah.

590

And I guess I'm curious, you know,

we, we talked a little bit earlier in

591

dating how you might, um, approach that

conversation and I'm wondering if the,

592

tips you give around that are the same.

593

Go in knowing your boundaries, be

clear about what you're available for.

594

Yeah.

595

How do you generally advise about

596

Nicole Penrod: that?

597

And what I mean by that is I

think sometimes we hear like,

598

you don't owe anybody anything.

599

I feel like that's a very

common thing that gets said.

600

I fundamentally disagree.

601

I think we owe each other

quite a lot as people.

602

Um, but the semantics of that, I think

you can quibble When you're just dating

603

someone and you're not sure, does

this marry a serious relationship?

604

Are we going to move forward together?

605

I think you can be very clear,

like, take me or leave me.

606

This is what's up.

607

And you can make clear decisions based

off of that, because all you know of

608

this person is the last handful of

dates that you've been on, or the last

609

few months that you've been chatting.

610

When you are really deeply

connected to someone.

611

Maybe you're married, maybe you have

a child, maybe you've met their family

612

and their friends and you're like

very interconnected in their life.

613

To me, that also feels like a

conversation of how do we do this

614

together if they're open to it?

615

Like, okay, I'm really feeling pulled to

explore this part of myself, that maybe my

616

gender is different than I thought it was

and I want to express that in different

617

ways, that maybe there sexual experiences

I want to have that I haven't been able

618

to with people of different genders than

I ever thought I would be attracted to.

619

And then, yeah, if you want to have

sex with someone outside of the

620

relationship, then that has to be

a conversation with your partner

621

where you are taking into account

what they are and are not okay with.

622

You are able to walk away at any point.

623

Absolutely.

624

If they're not open to that and

it's something you really feel like

625

you need for yourself, maybe the

relationship ends and you walk away.

626

Maybe you take a break.

627

But I think especially when we're thinking

about things like ethical non monogamy,

628

the communication has to be so clear and

so collaborative for it to actually work.

629

And it can.

630

It absolutely can.

631

But it takes a lot of intention.

632

And I think that intention

is not necessarily.

633

at least intention at that level,

doesn't always have to show up in some

634

of those early dating conversations.

635

Josh Van Vliet: What you're naming to me

speaks a lot to secure attachment and or,

636

or secure functioning relationships at

least that when we have made some kind

637

of commitment to each other, whether

that's, you know, as, as much as marriage

638

or some other kind of life partnership

commitment or, you know, just we're in

639

a committed relationship of some kind.

640

Ideally we have some clear agreements

around what that means to us.

641

Right?

642

That this is what we mean when we say

we're in a committed relationship.

643

That we, you know, consult each other

first on things that are important to us.

644

We support and cherish each other's

dreams, you know, whatever your

645

agreements are with that person.

646

And so I love what you're naming

around, you know, maybe the

647

terminology we could quibble over

like you're saying, oh, or not.

648

But I think in that context of we have a

649

shared agreement around how we

are in relationship to each other,

650

that it does become important to.

651

If we're honoring our agreements,

if we've made some clear agreements

652

around, you know, we're sharing what's

on our hearts or whatever it, whatever

653

it is, that is part of honoring

those agreements with that person.

654

If we're going to stay in that

relationship and stay current in that

655

relationship if we, if we want a secure

functioning relationship with that

656

person, it requires us to be honoring

those agreements that we've made.

657

And I love what you're saying

about, and okay, how do we find

658

a way to explore this together?

659

Right?

660

Or, or, for me to explore this within

the context of our relationship.

661

Whether that involves

other people or not, right?

662

But that there's kind of a way in which

I'm inviting you on this journey with me.

663

So that even as I'm exploring,

I'm changing, I'm discovering

664

new things about myself.

665

You're, you're alongside me.

666

You're learning with me.

667

You're supporting me as I grow

rather than, uh, I'm out, I'm kind

668

of doing this by myself whether you

like it or not, you know, it's not

669

necessarily a bad thing to do, it's just

670

Jessica Engle: is

671

Josh Van Vliet: not in relationship

with the person that you're currently in

672

relationship with, and so that's a choice.

673

Jessica Engle: a choice.

674

So,

675

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I

love what you're saying.

676

Nicole Penrod: These kinds of

conversations I think would also be

677

so much easier if every person in a

relationship acknowledged that you

678

have a gender and sexuality that

you're allowed to explore, even if you

679

identify as cisgender and heterosexual.

680

Even if you are kind of the quote

unquote default normal, I don't have to

681

think about it, this is just who I am.

682

There are so many different aspects of

gender presentation that I think people

683

And, and sometimes do discover when

they're in healthy relationships, right?

684

You might be a man who likes to paint your

nails and decide that doesn't actually

685

mean anything about your gender identity,

but it's a way that you like to present.

686

Uh, there's a lot of different, I

think, ways to think about it, right?

687

People who are in a relationship and are

able to both find someone of the same

688

gender attractive when they're watching

a movie like, Oh my God, he's hot.

689

Yeah, he's hot.

690

And you can have that experience

without it feeling like a threat.

691

to what you have with the

person sitting next to you.

692

So I also want to throw this out

as an encouragement to people who

693

might not think they have quote

unquote like deep exploration to do.

694

You are also allowed to wonder,

hey, if I'm a woman, what are

695

the things about womanhood that

feel authentic and true to me?

696

And how can I explore those?

697

Whether or not you're in a relationship, I

think bringing that to the table actually

698

is really healthy and really helpful.

699

Jessica Engle: Yeah, and I love the

piece you said in there about, you know,

700

even within a committed relationship, in

fact a lot of people find new aspects of

701

themselves, of their identities within

relationship, which coming back to

702

secure attachment makes perfect sense.

703

When we feel really secure,

we get to see the parts of us

704

that we couldn't see before.

705

That's part of what inspires

me so much about relationships.

706

Yeah, so I really appreciate, um, I think

my word today is expansive too, right?

707

Like, I really hear the expansive,

creative, playful approach you're

708

encouraging, which I think is really

important around sexuality and gender

709

just because they've been so, uh, word?

710

Like, like, you know.

711

The patriarchy, oppression, have made

these things so tight and so fear based.

712

So I think that really feels like,

um, a very liberation based approach

713

to, kind of, can we bring more

fluidity, more creativity back in?

714

Josh: Yeah, it's beautiful.

715

It's beautiful.

716

It's, it's so, like you're saying, it's so

rigid the way that we're taught to think

717

about these things of, you know, even,

uh, you know, if you like looking at baby

718

clothes, which is like, There are no,

there are no major physical differences

719

between babies of different sexes.

720

And yet, the clothes that

we design, people design for

721

babies, it's just bonkers, right?

722

It's like, uh, you know, trucks and

animals and blue and gray and then like,

723

Pink and flowers and, you know, bright

colors and you don't need me to tell what

724

gender those were, you know, assigned for.

725

Uh, so I love the, I love the, the

invitation you're extending here, Nick,

726

especially, you know, as someone who is

hetero- cis- myself, um, that, And have

727

thought a lot about gender expression

and, uh, it's such a beautiful invitation

728

like, oh yeah, there is so much room for

us all to play here, regardless of how

729

we identify or think of ourselves, right?

730

Like, like having my ears pierced is

such a beautiful way that I feel like

731

I can express my gender, which is

not that even that far outside of the

732

kind of mainstream norm for Uh, but

was big for me when I recognized that

733

within myself of like, Oh, this is

a way that I want to express myself.

734

I, I actually don't have a lot of

peers at the time when I got my ears

735

pierced who were doing that, and it

felt like, Oh, yeah, I can play here.

736

So I, I love that you're, you're

extending this invitation to all of us.

737

And, um, And I think to what you're

both aiming about, expansive, I think

738

my word for today is maybe safety.

739

That, that, that is the, the bedrock

that we need for this expansive

740

exploration and that when we are in a

committed partnership, a really secure,

741

functioning, committed partnership,

that safety that is present there,

742

that kind of secure base gives us the

space to play and explore in ways that

743

we might not have otherwise outside

of that relationship some of the time.

744

Jessica Engle: the time.

745

Nicole Penrod: I think one way people

tend to define transness in the

746

mainstream and in the DSM and our work

as therapists is through dysphoria.

747

What about your gender feels wrong to you?

748

And I really encourage folks to also

be thinking about an equally strong

749

marker of understanding your gender

identity, which is gender euphoria.

750

What feels right?

751

What feels good?

752

What feels exciting to you?

753

I think that was a great

example of that, Josh, of, okay.

754

This feels really good to me.

755

I'm going to present this way.

756

I feel authentic to who I am,

and I feel euphoric in my gender.

757

It's fun.

758

It's playful.

759

Like, there is a lot of heaviness around

it, but I have found so much joy in

760

my queer identity and queer community.

761

And so I hope people can hold on to that,

too, amidst these conversations about how

762

to navigate fear, anxiety, worry, risk.

763

Josh Van Vliet: Gender euphoria.

764

I love that.

765

That is so good.

766

So good.

767

It makes me think of this wonderful,

uh, I don't know how to describe them.

768

A loke, uh, poet, uh, comedian,

also thinker, just like

769

beautiful human in the world.

770

Uh, they, they talk about Butcher, we'll

link to one of their things in the show

771

notes, but they talk about gender, like,

almost like creating beautiful lives,

772

Jessica Engle: yeah.

773

Yeah, gender presentation isn't

so much about gender itself,

774

but about creating beauty.

775

Yeah.

776

If you

777

Josh Van Vliet: Which is, so resonates

with what you're naming here, Nick,

778

of like, yeah, those moments of

when you're like, Yeah, this is me.

779

This is great.

780

I love, I love being

this way in the world.

781

Uh, it's, it's beautiful.

782

So we've kind of answered yes, we should

most of the time share this with a

783

partner, uh, if we're in a relationship.

784

And then I think, Probably one of the

next national questions is, okay, so

785

I'm exploring this shift in my identity.

786

Can I explore that within a relationship?

787

How do I explore that

within a relationship?

788

What could that look like?

789

Nicole Penrod: Totally.

790

Yeah, because I think especially

on a surface level rate of the

791

question, if your sexuality

changes, explore it sexually.

792

If your gender changes, immediately

medically transition overnight, right?

793

There's this thought that it has

to be this extreme thing that is

794

going to upend your relationship.

795

One thing I hear and I see people

asking fairly often is, oh my

796

gosh, I think I might be bisexual,

pansexual, sexually fluid.

797

I don't want to cheat on my partner,

but I don't know how I can explore this.

798

And it hurts me that that

feels like the option, right?

799

Do I or do I not cheat on my partner?

800

Am I or am I not like transgressing

upon this relationship

801

just by virtue of who I am?

802

Because there absolutely are other ways

to explore what this might mean for you.

803

Like speaking of community, just

being able to hear other stories that

804

people share of like, hey, this is

who I am and this is how I got to

805

that place can be really affirming.

806

And if you resonate or recognize

pieces of those stories in yourself,

807

it can make a big difference.

808

I always recommend the

Gender Reveal podcast.

809

It's great.

810

They have like 5 million interviews with

people all across the gender spectrum

811

who have transitioned or not transitioned

or gone the medical route or not, or.

812

Change their name legally or didn't.

813

There's like lots of different options.

814

I know I haven't listened to

as much of it, but the Gender

815

Stories podcast also exists.

816

Similar energies there.

817

Reading about different

identities in fiction or in non

818

fiction can be really affirming.

819

Same with TV or movies, right?

820

Connecting to characters, getting

that understanding of Is that me?

821

Can I see myself reflected

in somebody else?

822

I think can be beautiful.

823

Ethical non monogamy is an option.

824

Sometimes people genuinely will talk to

their partner and say, Hey, either we take

825

a break or we open up the relationship.

826

I get to explore what this might look

like for me sexually or even romantically.

827

And we still operate as Partners who

love and care for one another and this

828

doesn't have to detract from that.

829

Polysecure by Jessica Fern is a great

book to read if you're interested in some

830

more on that . One journaling exercise I

recommend to some folks that comes out of

831

the narrative therapy world is to write

a journal entry from the perspective

832

of this part of yourself that you are

trying to either put down or hide.

833

And if you could give that part

of yourself that's saying, Hey.

834

Maybe I'm trans.

835

A voice.

836

What would it want to write?

837

You don't ever have to

share that with anybody.

838

They can give you an opportunity to set

the shame down for a bit or set the fear

839

down for a bit and really hear yourself.

840

And for some people, that's, oh, okay,

maybe that's actually not who I am.

841

And I was just letting all of

the fear that I was holding

842

give it this legitimacy.

843

And for other people, They'll say, that

is absolutely my true voice that I was

844

hiding or that I was shutting away.

845

So those would be my kind of initial

recommendations and then also connecting

846

with other people in the community.

847

I think always there are groups

for folks who are questioning.

848

There are ally groups at various

LGBT centers that you can go to.

849

In my experience, people are not

going to be very invasive or pushy

850

about you knowing exactly who you are.

851

It's a community that I think can

hold space for fluidity and questions.

852

Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

853

So I'm hearing kind of hearing

other people's experiences, hearing

854

stories, being able to see, oh,

yeah, do I see myself in that?

855

Also, kind of getting in touch with

yourself and whatever that part is

856

that is wanting to be expressed in

some way and, and really listening

857

and seeing what, what's there.

858

And that even just by giving yourself

some space around that to set down

859

the shame or the anxiety or whatever

the fear that's coming up, you

860

may hear some important things.

861

And then also within that, uh, potentially

opening up your relationship in some

862

fashion exploring ethical non monogamy

as a way to explore that sexual identity

863

change or gender identity change.

864

I'm curious, uh, what would you, do

you think there's a role for things

865

like, uh, porn or erotica or like

fantasy in this process as well?

866

Where do you see that fitting

in, if, if it does fit in?

867

Jessica Engle: take

868

Nicole Penrod: Yeah, absolutely.

869

Yeah, I think that would fit into kind

of what I would think of as sometimes

870

solo and sometimes with a partner

exploration that happens for yourself.

871

I do think you can watch porn.

872

I think finding either kind of websites or

resources that are made by people who are.

873

in the community of the identity

that you're exploring is always

874

ideal and I think will give you

a closer to authentic experience.

875

Um, similarly kind of audio and written

erotica very often I think a slightly

876

more diverse representation of experiences

that can be helpful for some folks.

877

Fantasy, absolutely, masturbation, I

think utilizing those experiences also

878

as shame reduction techniques to say,

I'm going to allow myself to feel this

879

and to remind yourself that there is

not harm, right, in fantasizing and

880

having those experiences with yourself.

881

These can also be fantasies

that you share with a partner.

882

If you've had this conversation with

them and you're saying, hey, like,

883

this is what I have been thinking,

fantasy doesn't have to expand

884

into reality unless you want it to.

885

So it might be, hey, let's do a role play,

or let's integrate something into our

886

sexual experience or romantic experience

with one another that allows for this

887

expansiveness within the boundaries

of the relationship that we have.

888

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I really get the

sense of there's a lot of space to play,

889

even if you're not ready to take the

step of, you know, exploring polyamory

890

or ethical non monogamy, that there's

still places to play within a monogamous

891

relationship, uh, where you're exploring

fantasy or exploring these things

892

together in some fashion that can be a

beautiful, beautiful kind of way of, of

893

bringing into the relationship so that

it isn't like, oh, I'm exploring this

894

thing off here by myself, but rather

like, no, this can be a part of our

895

erotic life together if we want it to.

896

Jessica Engle: Yeah, and I also love how

you're pointing to it's, it's ideal to,

897

you know you know, find materials that

are created by people in the community.

898

I also you know, I hear often

like pay for your porn, right?

899

Like compensate these people who

are working hard to help you get in

900

touch with this aspect of yourself.

901

I'm also thinking a

lot about pride events.

902

Right?

903

So being in community in a way where you

can experience other people celebrating

904

in, in just really euphoric, to bring

that word back in, in really euphoric

905

ways can be so incredibly empowering.

906

And kind of on the flip side, these

aren't exact opposites, but I'm thinking

907

about couples I've worked with where one

partner has, uh, come out as bisexual

908

or pansexual and I think couple therapy

itself can be really important in

909

those moments to help the couple really

process what that means and also to

910

address the trauma that's inevitably

going to be in the room when a partner

911

names a marginalized identity, right?

912

Especially for the first time, there's

going to be a lot to work through

913

there in terms of all of the places

where they remain silent, right?

914

So really also leaving a lot of

space for the darker parts, right?

915

The pieces that really need

to be exhumed and, and healed.

916

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

917

I mean, I really like you naming

darker parts in the context of healing.

918

I think sometimes of therapy as a

place where we make room for the hard

919

stuff that we don't want to be thinking

or talking about and that once it's

920

all out there, there is this relief.

921

I tell folks sometimes getting to

what feels like the rock bottom

922

of an emotion is the place you can

actually start to build back from.

923

And as long as you have resisted

going there, it is going to

924

exist somewhere inside of you.

925

And I definitely see that

happening relationally.

926

If there is something that, oh, we

just don't talk about it, or we don't

927

like to think about it, or okay,

that's an aspect of my partner's

928

identity, but I'm holding it.

929

I'm, you can't see, I'm literally

physically holding an arm out at

930

arm's length right now to say like,

that's not, I don't want that.

931

Then that is going to feel really,

really difficult if we can't look at

932

each other and say like, this is who I

am and I understand that this is who you

933

are and that those pieces inevitably are

going to be pages in the story of us.

934

Then it's going to be really

difficult to be able to find the

935

happy ending, to use, uh, I guess

that book metaphor to its conclusion.

936

If we're kind of feeling like we're

stuck and we can't turn a page

937

together, that's going to be difficult.

938

And I think there's so much opportunity,

like people don't think they can learn.

939

And I think that's one of the

beautiful things I find in working

940

with individuals and with couples.

941

What happens when there is a shift,

And everyone in the room is able

942

to say, wow, something just changed

that we didn't think we were going to

943

be able to move or change or shift.

944

And that usually just requires a

little bit of bravery, a little bit

945

of humility and a lot of compassion.

946

Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

947

Jessica Engle: I really appreciate

this conversation, appreciate you

948

bringing your personal experience,

your professional experience, just to

949

create some safe space here for people

who are transitioning in some way.

950

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, such a beautiful,

uh, way you hold this with such kind

951

of combination of our words today.

952

I think creating safety for

expansiveness for folks who are

953

looking at this for really all of

us to explore this in some way.

954

Yeah, that's really beautiful

and grateful for it.

955

Well, that's all for today.

956

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

957

this episode at RelationshipCenter.

958

com slash podcast.

959

Jessica Engle: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

960

podcast at relationshipcenter.

961

com.

962

We love hearing from you.

963

Josh Van Vliet: If you'd like

to work with one of our talented

964

clinicians on our team, including

Nicole, go to RelationshipCenter.

965

com to apply for a free

30 minute consultation.

966

Jessica Engle: You can also sign

up for our monthly email of our

967

best content at relationshipcenter.

968

com slash newsletter.

969

Josh Van Vliet: If something in

this episode touched you, will

970

you share it with a friend?

971

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

972

Jessica Engle: Lastly, we'd love

it if you would leave us a rating

973

and review in Apple Podcasts and be

sure to hit subscribe while you're

974

there so you never miss an episode.

975

Josh Van Vliet: Until next time,

976

we love you too.

977

Jessica Engle: Bye!

978

Josh Van Vliet: Woohoo!

979

Any weird noises you need to get out of

your system right now while the mic's on?

980

Um.

981

Jessica Engle: let's see.

982

Oh, that one cracked my back.

983

Josh Van Vliet: That

sound cracked your pack?

984

Nyeaah.

985

Amazing.

986

Chup chup chup chup chup

chup chup chup chup chup chup

987

chup chup chup chup chup chup

988

We got all our weird sounds out.

989

Jessica Engle: Okay.

990

I don't really know if

that's the end to the

991

Josh Van Vliet: true.

992

I'm just like, for now,

993

Jessica Engle: this metaphor.

994

Josh Van Vliet: peeing.

995

You pee and then you empty your bladder

out and then it refills over time.

996

You're welcome.

997

Jessica Engle: you need to pee?

998

Josh Van Vliet: No, I don't actually.

999

Strangely enough.

00:55:37,970 --> 00:55:39,260

You'd think I did, but.

00:55:41,610 --> 00:55:41,890

Jessica Engle: Oh.