If you had one shot...

One opportunity to seize everything you ever wanted...

Would you capture it or let it slip?

We never know when an opportunity will fall to us. And often they fall when we're not prepared. We kick ourselves for not having the presence to say what we later think of.

That moment slips because we weren't ready.

Mastery means training to be better when we need to be. It's mastering the extra 20% that most people won't put in the work for. It's preparing for any eventuality.

All so when the moment drops into your lap you're ready.

Jung coaches personal mastery so that when those moments arise, his Clients are ready. They take their shot. And don't regret fluffing their lines.

In today's podcast Jung and I talked mastery and his journey.

In this clip he tells about a pivotal moment in his career. In front of 2,000 people his CEO belittled and ridiculed him. He spoke about how he responded and how that helped him to grow.

How would you respond in that moment?

Links:

Jung's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jung-wing-wan/

Website: https://jungpersonalmastery.com

I coach leaders, especially corporate leaders to

communicate with confidence, but from a martial arts mindset.

I'll call it personal mastery as well.

I think there's a lot we can gain from the benefits we get from martial arts.

Things like discipline of practice, always learning.

The beginner's mind, having the self awareness, self knowledge,

all of these things, having a sense of intention and purpose.

I think that's what I instill to help my clients to get a better

sense of what they're doing.

So I think in a way, helping them to not just develop their, Ability

or communication skills, but also it's about the person within.

About the character because someone could have great communication skills

and be able to speak to people, but if there is something inside that's

not, I would say, holistic, not aligned, missing on integrity, then

that's going to be communicated out.

That's not a good place to be.

What I'm interpreting from that is, it's like getting the benefits

of martial arts without the 10 years of the actual martial arts.

It's the mindset.

It is the mindset.

Yeah, so what I think from, I basically sharing my insights

from my own personal experience.

It helps people to have a perspective that they wouldn't normally just

get from reading a book, et cetera.

Make it a bit experiential for them, but without taking

up martial arts per se, yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

I've learned a lot of lessons from martial arts.

I'm not martial arts master, but I've learned lessons from them.

They are life lessons.

I suppose the main, Lesson, I've learned is that we often think, the example

I've heard given is when someone new comes in to say something like Taekwondo

or something, they want to do this kicking roundhouse kick, and, they want

to be able to do it on the first day.

And actually the person who's doing that is practicing the same basic

thing that the other person's doing, but they've done it to mastery.

Bruce Lee said, I don't fear the man who's learned 10, 000 kicks.

I fear the man who's learned one kick 10, 000 times.

Yes.

Yeah.

So it's that about foundational pillars.

My guess is that's what you're dealing with in terms of integrity.

Sorry, what were the other parts you talked about?

Integrity is one value that I have and I impart, so integrity, I'd say

the intention is very important, right?

The intent that we have is important because if there's no intention,

no why, no purpose to it, then what is the point in very blunt terms.

It's always great to have intention because that directs our energy

and our ability to affect change and affect, impact or influence

or affect things to happen.

So that's important for me as well as.

Those things I'd say mastery is very important, right?

Continual practice you're talking about there from the foundations.

Not just being able to learn the next new thing, but always getting more

mastery over the the fundamentals.

Not forgetting the basic, stances or whatever, that's

from a martial arts standpoint.

But, even say, for example people would say, oh, it's always critically

important to have self awareness.

Absolutely critical.

But just because one starts with doesn't mean we forget it.

Once we get better at self awareness, it's always a continual thing.

Another thing that's very important for me is aside from the mastery

and and integrity is creativity.

Creativity for me, it's about always letting go of our of the

thinking mind and just seeing what comes up and also surrendering a

little bit to what's happening.

Because there's a lot that we don't know, and the moment we let go of

that, then we can bring in a lot more that can be more than the

sum of what we previously thought.

Yeah.

I can see how mastery plays into that because when you have a level of mastery,

you have so much pattern recognition, that you have so much bodily intuition, and

the mind will slow you down at that point.

Having to think will slow you down, and you're able to respond in the moment.

Yes.

Yeah, definitely.

My company logo.

It's got a calligraphy circle and an eagle that's soaring and it

represents my key values of integrity, there's creativity, and mastery.

There's a bit a wisdom in there too, but understand and seeking meaning, okay.

Those are very important values for me.

So what's the, why value?

Is that mastery?

I think it is because if we, I'd say it's probably one of the highest things.

Because we can get better at what we do.

A new skill, a new ability, or even know a particular subject, but if

there is no bigger why, then about ourselves and the role we can play,

then that becomes a bit meaningless.

So the why, the purpose is very important, because that determines the direction that

we can focus our energy and intention on.

For me, I'm much more, let's say, intentional, to use that word, very

clear as to what is the point of doing something that's going to involve,

taking some extra effort to make happen.

Purpose is very important.

Okay.

So for me the ultimate value is freedom.

So I talk about relationships, I talk about conflict, but it's

really for people to be free.

Freedom is the ultimate.

What I'm trying to get at is mastery the ultimate or is

mastery in service of something?

That's a good question.

It's, for me in service of something.

So when I'm coaching my clients, I may help them with something more

tangible, something like, develop confidence, develop some aptitude to

a better extent that they, what they had be in speaking to people, speaking

to groups, public speaking, et cetera.

Actually that's almost like a stepping stone to better awareness.

And they're like what's the point of it?

What's the point of doing these things?

And it's finding that sense of what is the bigger cause the purpose.

That's right.

That is important.

it's not mastery for mastery sake.

I don't call myself a master.

I'm a great student.

I would say I'm a student who happens also to teach certain things, but I'm a

student at the day, and for me, mastery is about the journey, the experience

of just becoming much more intentional about bettering ourselves in some way.

Be it in terms of our character, in terms of the way we live our

lives, the way we help other people, is finding that sense of purpose.

I'm guessing that maybe 20 years ago, mastery wasn't something.

You talking about, but it was probably going on there in the background.

I'm curious about where mastery came from.

What was the journey to mastery?

It's a journey that's still very much ongoing.

I'm no master myself.

I've always, I think I've been from a, let's say very young age, wanting

always to be better and in some way the eldest son to my parents.

I take that responsibility and I think I'm always in a way there is

a position from that to having to do something, be responsible, help

my parents interact interpret for my parents, et cetera, that type of thing.

So taking that responsibility, I think, and always as well for being like a

role model to my younger siblings.

They came with a lot of pressure, really, so that learning a Chinese language,

growing up here in this country, still having to learn Chinese and not doing

very well at it, I think to start with, because it was very difficult, it wasn't

particularly fun, but it was hard work, it was hard work, particularly when I didn't

really get it a lot of the time, a lot better now, so there's that aspect of it.

Always wanting, needing to do better from a cultural

upbringing as well, perspective.

But also in the background, I felt watching a lot of movies, right?

When my parents always watch these kung fu movies and stuff like that.

And it's a powerful thing, right?

I think also, often receiving racial abuse from a young age.

Being a little fearful of meeting new people.

You go to maybe meet with another school, et cetera.

And now I'd be expecting some sort of words of racial abuse thrown at me, right?

Which I didn't handle very well.

I kept it contained and it had to be something better than that.

It took a long while before I realized, hang on, regardless of what people say,

I'm the one having to handle it, and I need to handle it in a better way.

I think that's my journey into more confidence came about, and that came from

better understanding of how I'm reacting, how can I choose to respond to all this.

Eventually at university I started going to martial arts.

My first martial art I did was TaeKwonDo.

And actually it was over at the University of East Anglia over in Norwich.

Your neck of the woods and really enjoyed it.

Absolutely loved it.

One thing it was just with other people to train together, learn

together, with going through hardship of training and the painful stretching

exercises and stuff like that.

Not to mention all the other things that we got to do, but it was great fun.

And I really enjoyed it, but I learned a lot about myself.

In a way, I'd say, probably that was the time where I really got into this idea

of what Mastery was about or started to.

But it was still a long while before I think got a better sense

of who I was and what I could do, how I could help other people.

It's always a long journey.

I know my daughters, when they come to, they've done their A levels,

they're like, what am I going to do?

I need to know what I'm going to do.

You're still probably still going to be working out when you're 50, but, there

is a lot of pressure and it's something I think it's opened up because coaching

has become very popular and it's as people have, a lot of people have

experienced it in one way or another.

So there's a much more openness and interest in personal development.

People are used to talking about values and things like that, but

it's still, it is a long journey.

Like Steve Jobs said you can never find the theme, looking forward.

It's always joined in the dots.

So did you keep the martial arts going from uni?

Yeah.

After my time in East Anglia, actually, there was a year I was

in France, I'd exchanged programs, so I spent a year in France.

So it's basically studying chemistry, but with French, and I did a little

bit more Taekwondo there, but also a bit of Tai Chi, so just for the first

time, and then after that time in France came back, finished the degree,

and then I did a postgraduate and went to Southampton, doing my PhD there.

Then I'd learned another, went into another style of martial

art, but basically it's a mix of Chinese gung Fu martial arts.

I like that because it had a very different feel.

It was a very much a different approach to what I understood as martial

arts from the Taekwondo perspective.

I enjoyed that.

I think that helped me grow as well.

I think it was during the long years that being in a corporate environment,

working in pharmaceuticals working in a big company, that's when I got

to learn a bit more about myself from other aspects, not within the

training room or strictly martial arts.

It's just about how I to apply myself.

Always look, seeking to learn, always learning this skill and learning that,

reading lots of leadership books, learning things like speed reading, always

gathering more stuff on languages, right?

Because I love collecting languages.

Lots of stuff to do with self development and there are things like

confidence, coming across books like Man's Search for Meaning with Viktor

Frankl, I'm sure you're familiar with.

Just soaking it all in and trying to make some sense out of it.

I think one particular experience I had quite early on in my career,

which really, left its mark.

I was in a meeting in a big corporate town hall meeting where basically

the CEO comes along on, on site and about 2000 people on site.

So he presents The year's performance for how the company did and I'm

like, I'm there thinking, hang on.

He hasn't mentioned anything to do with the part of the business that I'm in.

And it's a good size division of the company in terms of what it is.

It's a vaccines.

So at the time, so nothing was mentioned to us.

So then when it came to time for questions, I just put my hand up

and the microphone was given to me.

Okay.

And I asked my question.

I said, great presentation.

I, like what you presented on how the company is doing, but you

didn't mention this division, this part of the company that does a

lot of great work about vaccines.

Can you tell us more?

And his reply was, Jung, the reason I didn't, I talked about those products

that did very well for the company, right?

Commercially.

And quite frankly Jung, you need to work harder.

About 2, 000 people, 2, 000 people essentially laughed with that joke.

At me.

I got knocked back, right?

I'd just been hit, I'd been, aggrieved, right?

This is quite a big thing.

Disbelief, my heart was like pounding and, I Didn't know what to do.

And it's like a moment of what's going to happen?

My boss was stood behind me and probably I felt she was shaking and

not worried about me losing my job.

She was probably worried about her career limiting situation here.

But then I realized I still got the microphone.

I still got the microphone.

And what seemed like after ages I spoke and I said, So there are reasons

why that business is the way it did because of manufacturing capacity

and all these sort of challenges.

And that's when he actually then started talking more about it, how, he'd spent

time with Bill & Melinda Gates, talking about vaccine humanization around

the world and that type of thing.

And he really landed so and then he moved on and I realized as well, if I hadn't.

If I hadn't said anything, I don't know what would have happened.

I probably would have just collapsed because the pressure,

the people laughing at me, I don't know where I would have been.

I would have probably collapsed perhaps.

And the funny thing is that about two weeks later I was still in the office.

I still had my job.

No mention was ever made by my manager about what had happened

and I happened to see the CEO.

I looked up from my desk one day and the CEO just walked

by, just happened to walk by.

He's normally based in the U.

S.

He just walked by and I looked up, his eyes caught mine and I nodded

at him just as he's nodded at me because he recognized who I was.

I was that guy who asked him a question that he didn't want to answer and he's

the guy who said something at my expense.

And there was that look of recognition and almost, also, a

look that was acknowledgement.

You recognized me for what I did, and there was respect.

There was respect.

And I get my job, and everything, and that was a big moment for me, because

I realized that I went into a very deep space, dark space within myself.

I was attacked, I was laughed at, etc.

But I found the inner strength, the resilience, and I bounced back.

I came back, but not just in a fighting way.

But I almost moved things along, and it became a better thing, and I've

become stronger as a result of getting into that, with that challenge.

So that was a big moment for me, and I think even now, although it's

probably 20 years ago, it's still very much with me, that experience,

and I've grown from that experience.

So I think that's a very key moment for me in terms of, let's say,

mastery of myself, personal mastery.

It's very brave to speak up and to come back.

I'm thinking of that situation in terms of, do you know, Joseph

Campbell's The Hero's Journey?

Yes.

That to me sounds like one of the, like final tests, and they usually

come after times when we haven't.

It's normally like we've been tested before and we've

refused the call kind of thing.

So what was that the culmination of times when you hadn't been so

brave and you hadn't been so present to, be able to respond like that?

It's a good question.

I say it was a key moment.

Maybe that was the biggest event I was in, where I put my hand up.

I have in previous situations, maybe being on the courses or something like that, I

would put my hand up to ask a question.

I think people remember me from courses while back, where I was the guy who kept

on putting his hand up to ask a question.

But not to be, Not necessarily to be seen asking a question, but more because I just

genuinely want to know, and it's sometimes a way of helping me stay awake, let's say,

through the lecture or whatever, right?

So at least I've got some outcome I can get from it.

But I think, as to whether it's a test, it was certainly a test.

I think it was, I felt something inside that said, look, I've got to say

something here, and my hand went up.

I didn't exactly know what exactly I was going to say, but there's this

reflex that I've trained myself.

I've got this reflex.

I just put my hand up and then I think what am I going to say next?

But I've now learned to trust that kind of, I've learned to trust myself to say

something that's right at the moment.

Since that moment I've almost made it a game for myself where I would

ask any leader in my company or the company I've been working with.

At the time, I would, let's say as the CEO, I would always put

my hand up and ask a question.

So pretty much with every company I've worked for since then, when I had the

opportunity in those types of meetings, I would put my hand up and ask a question.

Now the experiences have been a lot better than that first instance, but

I think it's a case of where you're asking a question that matters.

And I often, this is where my creativity comes in, where I ask a question

that gets To the core digs deep.

I'm not afraid in that situation to ask somebody about their deepest fear.

Particularly when there's something to learn from it,

that they're willing to share.

And I think there's sometimes we're going to be afraid to ask the questions

that in a way, almost insightful that can reveal something and I think by that

revelation revealing something about ourselves that most people don't really

know, I think it's a very powerful way of connecting with people and

I'm finding that with me sharing this right now, even the idea of it, I get a

sense that you're resonating with that.

Yeah.

That's really, it's the basis for human connection is self disclosure.

Yeah.

When you make yourself vulnerable by revealing something, people can

connect to the humanity of that.

So when you ask the question, it's as much to push yourself to be

uncomfortable is it, is the kind of sense I'm getting is that you push

yourself to ask a question regardless and then you rely on your creativity

to come up with a relevant question.

Yes.

I, the words come to me there and and it's part of it is a bit of a game,

but actually I find I get a lot more.

I learned a lot more from it, from the person, but also about myself in terms of

getting out of that comfort zone because it's very safe to say, I'll just be here.

I'll just listen to what people say and just nod and everything.

But actually, no, there's something I want to explore, find out.

It's about that intention of being a lot more, it's very much an

action, taking an action, rather than say that's great or not great.

But doing something to move things forward,

That makes a lot of sense.

I think the comfort we have, asking questions and speaking out loud,

I think in front of a crowd is a reflex is about how much we do it.

It can be a habit.

So we can, the more we do it, the more comfort we have with it.

When I was at school, I would argue everything.

They used to call me the classroom lawyer.

If I thought something was unfair to another kid, I would argue for it.

I would always have a comment.

I was a class clown.

I realized, I guess it was what's equivalent, probably about year nine in

now terms, it was different back then.

I realized I was get getting detentions every night, and

I'd been I was in top set.

I was in top set for a year.

And the headmaster changed and they put me from the very top to the

very bottom, and for my behavior.

My mum said why has he gone to the bottom?

And they said if he behaves, he can go back up.

But I never did.

I realized I was in a class, but I didn't really like a lot of the people

because they weren't really my friends.

And I was getting detention all the time, getting in trouble.

And I thought, what am I doing it for?

And I just shut up.

And I just didn't say anything.

And I just kept quiet.

And then through college and that.

Then when you come to speak, it becomes harder.

And you have to break out of that pattern of not speaking up.

Also I find it very brave for you.

Because for me, I'm not great at processing auditorily.

If you give me something to read, I take it in, when I'm

hearing it, I don't hear as much.

So for me, I feel I'm a little bit behind in, in a situation like that.

I can see it takes a lot of bravery and courage to rely and self belief to

rely on your own resources to come out.

With an answer, so I can really appreciate the significance of that.

It's interesting.

We bring in the idea of listening.

So you may have heard this before that there's the Chinese character to listen.

No.

And.

So the character, Chinese character to listen, right?

It's Mandarin.

Is Ping Gonna write it down even.

So this character.

This character is the ear, basically, it's a representation

of the ear, it's the ear, right?

Which forms part of the character to listen.

It's a very complicated character.

We talk about this traditional character, then it's got

this thing here below, right?

Which actually represents king or emperor.

It's relation, basically the bridge between, traditional Chinese linking

before it was like the bridge, the emperor is the bridge between heaven and earth.

So why is the character for king or emperor in the character to listen?

It's almost listen to the person as if they're the king.

You're going to pay attention, aren't you?

I think that's the idea.

There's a character, this as well, which is basically a character with 10, the

cross thing and I think it's I guess it's like being the whole self together, right?

The idea of being all together.

But when we say 10, it means like the idea of 10 being complete, being there.

Then there's a character, this, it means four, but it went sideways.

It's an eye.

Okay.

It's like a representation of the eye with the, imagine there's a below, there's a

character, it's complicated character.

This is a horizontal stroke and that's just, that means one, like the number one.

So what does that mean?

We mentioned you're listening as one person.

You're completely listening.

You're not like listening to different things or whatever,

your attention is on one person.

And then at the bottom of it, there's this other thing, squiggly thing, at the

bottom, you can see that's the heart.

That's a character for heart.

It's like you're listening with your heart.

So this character in a way it's a funny character for a listen.

It represents listening with your ears, but listening as if the person is a king.

You focus your attention on them because they're worthy of your attention.

You listen as if you're your whole self.

The character for the eye, you're also listening with your eyes.

You're listening as one person.

So you're as one person and then use your heart as well.

So it's basically the whole thing.

And I like this as well, because when we do my practice Tai Chi and Xing

Yi, there's a very internal style.

So very much about listening.

So it doesn't mean just listening to ears, but it's using our whole body to

connect to sense what that person's doing.

I'm using it right now.

Let's say even though through Zoom, right?

I'm in a way, using that to be present so I can connect.

I can sense.

your state, your consent, you're very in your head at the moment as well,

you're thinking, but it's also, they say, so it's taking cues and they're

very intentional about what listening is.

And yes, it's basically active listening, right?

When you say listen to one, so I think there's a little bit

of ADHD and that is that I really struggle when there's other noises,

because it's like you can't not pay attention to certain things.

That's why I find languages difficult and I find names that aren't

typical English that I'm used to.

I have real challenge in remembering it because something like people will

say to me and I'll try and repeat it.

And I don't.

It happens to all of us, the names we're not familiar with.

I just had the thought that if it's the sound of the name doesn't, isn't, it

doesn't register strongly with you is practice saying it really articulating it.

And how does it, Maybe what does it look like, but how does it feel when you make

the mouth shape to articulate the sound?

And that becomes another thing that you can anchor your memory

of that name, as I thought.

Yeah, I actually about speaking up, I actually worked with a program with

with a lady by the name of Lisa Nichols.

She's in the U S she's an amazing speaker, very well known internationally And

certainly America, she'd be on Oprah.

She looked a hero of mine because she's just amazingly authentic

and she's amazing speaker.

She really connects with people.

She can help people really get into their emotions and she sometimes

make people cry from with emotion.

So I wanted to learn to become better, more confident in my

speaking, my ability to communicate.

I learned some techniques and things like great, but it was not just technique,

but a lot of it, there was an element of actually a lot of art mastery too, because

it's not just learn it and then that's it.

It's continual mastery, getting that feedback from doing it, experiential

feedback, but also it's a large part of it was about going within,

understanding ourselves emotionally.

And so there I am in this cohort of probably a hundred people.

I went to Florida a couple of times, or LA as well for these meetings,

for these conferences that she ran.

I'm like one of two guys in this cohort, plus the fact that I look

different to most of the other people there, but it was a real experience

for me because I stood out anyway.

It was interesting that I'd develop more bravery to speak about things

that were maybe a little uncomfortable or, emotionally, maybe a bit personal.

And there were sometimes that certain things that triggered me as well

for example, family relationships or, and also one time I did actually

share about, come back to the name.

There was a time when I was young, I didn't like my name.

I know it's very odd, but I didn't like my name.

Why didn't I like my name?

Because I didn't, people might use that as a way to make fun out of me, right?

They, even if they did know, they'd just make fun about me.

And they will, along with other racial abuse and stuff.

So there was a time where why can't I have a normal name like everyone else?

That type of, oh, what normal meaning?

Except, a common name, as it were.

More popular names, let's say, used in the UK, right?

In England.

But I, when I shared that, I didn't like my name, and I almost rejected it.

After a time, I realized, hang on, doesn't matter how much I reject it,

it's not going to get any better.

I've got to accept it, because it is, and it's a gift that my parents have given me.

They've named me with this name.

Actually, the name Jun in Cantonese or Mandarin, it means handsome, right?

The other part of my name is Jun Wing, Wing in Cantonese or Rong in Mandarin.

It means glory.

So those are two components of my first name.

And I learned to accept that and also embrace it because what else would change?

It had to be me.

So then when I shared that, I said, That then I embraced it and that we've got to

accept what we've been given or gifted.

That's rightfully ours.

It's like our voices.

We have a unique voice.

If we don't claim that, then you're not making use of it.

It's part of you as, everyone else has their own voice.

And I think that when I shared that in a room of a few hundred people, sharing

something that's very personal to me, it was unbelievable that how many people

came up to me who were in that room and just said, Thank you for saying that.

Thank you for saying that.

Not for me, but for them.

So I spoke for them because their names, they had the similar thing.

Their names are other names, their own names, but they may be unconventional

in some way for, in the US, perhaps.

But that I spoke to their struggle, but also I helped them to embrace that unique

gift they've been given their name.

That is them, their identity.

accept themselves for who they are.

And that was a very powerful thing.

My passion for helping people to communicate really comes from their

self acceptance and to really embrace that and grow That's the mastery

aspect of helping themselves to grow and accept to develop to embrace it

I can remember you sharing the clip of Yes, speaking up.

Yes If only you had the clip of you speaking up at the town hall

oh, yes.

If only, yeah, that would be something.

I don't know how I looked but I've shared that message before a number of

times in different settings, including on Lisa Nichols campus, as it were,

people got to know me through that story.

That was quite a, you think about someone who a leader in

that situation saying that.

And belittling, basically it's belittling an employee, that's not on really.

That wouldn't be acceptable at all.

I don't think it's really acceptable then, but it was always like, forgot no one

else was mentioning anything about it.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that.

So I started this podcast, long, long time ago.

And it was about relationships at first.

And I initially, I think the first 10 were interviews.

And one of the interviews was with a lady called Tracy Goodwin, Tracy.

Basically she's got this fascinating approach to speaking, Which is

the psychology of your voice.

She will listen to you because I was then on her podcast and she'll

basically tell you, what's going on inside you from listening to your voice.

And it's fascinating that then you have to, uncover like that story.

In coming to acceptance with that story is you unlock what was

locked up or express yourself more.

A fascinating thing.

So, for me, there are three areas, there's probably more, but when I think

there's three real areas of mastery, and I think that is, speaking is one of them.

I think leadership and relationships are the others in that, we can't do them.

We can't get any better at doing them until we're more comfortable with

ourselves until we're more aware of ourselves or accepting of ourselves

and able to move on to the next level.

Communication is one of the key areas, leadership as well.

And also in relationships.

All of them ostensibly are about, communication skills,

but it's never about skills.

It's about the foundation that enables you to use the skill.

I think it's about the person within, it's the person within

and often that's hidden, that person, that real person is hidden.

I think as well.

I think.

When you talked earlier about what mastery is for me, you mentioned freedom,

and I mentioned about purpose, and I think those two are not, they're not

separate they are part of the same thing.

I think it's about spiritual health, they're all, let's

say, holistic in a sense.

We have mental health, we have emotional health, we have

physical health, spiritual health.

We are, I think, as complete as we can be.

We have the complete integrity, and I think so having that purpose, which

gives you freedom because you're doing what you want to align with that, as

opposed to, not having freedom when you, let's say, for some people stuck

in a job or whatever, a way of life they don't like, that's not freedom.

So there's, obviously it's open to interpretation, but I think for me,

there's a spiritual component that as well, communication, or indeed leadership.

Whether you, whether your interpretations of spiritual, I

don't mean religion, spiritual as in a purpose, identity, having a

community connection, understanding ourselves, accepting ourselves.

Yeah, you can say it's emotional and mental, whatever, or it's often

dressed as mental, but I would say it's also spiritual because, it's not

about technique and whatever, it's about who we are and why we're here.

Definitely.

I think ultimately whether you consider yourself spiritual or not,

whether you're religious or not, it's irrelevant, but we all need a context.

We all need to encapsulate what is everything fit into, and there

has to be a sense of what is God.

That doesn't necessarily mean God in the religious sense, but it

means, What's the meaning to life?

How do I envision, the creation of life?

Where does life come from?

What is life?

What's my relationship to that?

And then what's my role within that?

So for me freedom is ultimate because freedom is specific about three things.

It's about not being tied down by dogma, not being Emotionally restricted, because

I think if you're not emotionally free, then you're emotionally tied down.

And if you're believing everything that's told to you, then you're tied down.

And then the last one is ignorance.

We're bound by what we don't know.

And what we don't know that we don't know.

When we're free of dogma, free of emotional constriction, and free of

ignorance, then we're free to do, whatever it is that we see is our

purpose and to do it in the way that we feel, but without being tied.

Ultimately it's about, freedom is about not needing.

People think it's about having, but the more that you have,

the more it ties you down.

The ultimate freedom is not needing.

Not being.

This all really ties into communication because it's not

caring about the response because you don't need validation.

You don't need approval.

It's not caring.

It's about the freedom to say whatever you think.

Self expression.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's the freedom of expression, knowing yourself

and the freedom to connect.

Yes.

I, something I didn't share in this call Rob is I, you've probably seen

some of my posts as well, where I'm also active in my church, not that

I'm preaching or anything like that.

But I'm active in a church, I'm an elder as well as a chairman.

And among other things, we do readings and things, but I'm not just

reading a word, I'm articulating.

I'm almost, I use the word communing, this word called communing.

I'm not just reading, I'm not just like not like AI just churning out

some words, but I'm actually processing what I'm reading and speaking it out.

There is that aspect I'm feeling as well of connection to the

people who are hearing me.

for listening, hearing what's said, but also I'm connecting very much to myself.

I'm very aware of my voice.

I've learned to like my voice.

There was a past I didn't like my voice, recorded voices that I

just didn't like my voice, right?

It's crazy, but I think a lot of us do.

I always find that too.

We find that like our voice when it's played back to us or whatever,

but I learned to accept it.

There have been people who like my voice.

They think it's got certain qualities to it that I don't

know, they say it's soothing.

Maybe there's a tone of authority in there.

So I've learned to accept it and embrace it.

Which is quite recent.

But in that context, where I'm in this space, where I'm leading a church service,

I may be giving a sermon or whatever, I'm not just reading, I'm delivering.

And that is a very key thing for me when it comes to communication, it touches on

that holistic, very spiritual aspect too.

Because it's about connection.

Connection in terms of with the people I'm speaking to connection

to myself connection to where I am and how I'm where I'm at,

I'm not sure how much you've cultivated your voice, but it is

very, it's very strong, very certain.

It is soothing but it has authority as well.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I think this the martial arts aspect certainly helps

to, being in the breathing.

I don't necessarily train my voice, but I think it's coming from within.

You could probably hear it's coming from.

I'm not speaking like that.

I'm not speaking from my head.

I'm speaking very much in me and having a good foundation, I think I often when

I'm standing in front of people and I have to say something and I'm being

nervous or whatever, which we all do, then I make sure that I'm grounded.

I may be using a slight, Tai Chi or Bajiquan stance.

Not overtly, but I'm grounding my hips tucked in properly.

I'm very much centered, rounded, upright so I can breathe properly,

I can breathe through the abdomen and it just comes, yeah.

Thank you for sharing that perspective.

Me, I've always focused on the ideas.

I've focused on what I'm trying to get across.

And never worked so much on the delivery.

I was talking to someone yesterday.

When I edit these, I'm terrible.

I read them and.

I almost never finished my sentence because I'm thinking something

else and I'm changing direction.

I'm like, I'm just babbling.

That's a very creative thing too, because there's lots of different ideas,

but yeah, I think we can get to that.

I think that's probably something so shiny and you like your attention

directed to that and then you run after it and then something else comes up

and so you're just scrambling around.

It's a bit like I don't know.

It's like you have to come across this crystal maze.

The game show thing, but there's like the end bit where you got to get as many of

these flying pieces of paper or whatever, and you've got to collect them and that

determines what bonus you're going to get.

And it's almost look, there's a bit there that you're trying

to grab and trying to grab.

It's a little bit like that in a way, but it's, and I think that's

a bit like our thoughts, right?

Thoughts can come.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think in some ways I'm undisciplined.

So I know if I'm talking.

to give a speech presentation.

I need to not think.

But usually I'm so busy thinking that I'm thinking one thing that

will lead to another thought.

And then, yeah, like you said, so it's, Yeah, I suppose the difference,

between you and I is you are quite disciplined in, you've cultivated

a sense of presence, sense of authority and an ability to speak.

And I suppose I'm relatively new to speaking in that I've always written.

And I don't necessarily see myself as a speaker and more of as a thinker.

And so as long as I can get across ideas, I can accept being not perfect.

And that's absolutely in other words, I'm perfect.

I think that's a part of acceptance too, right?

That's what makes us who we are.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I love to write as well.

I do I got my, handwrite as well, not just typing.

I've got my fountain pen, journals and things.

I just write.

I love to write.

And then I'm into poetry, stuff like that.

Okay.

I, my writing is terrible.

I can't even read my own writing.

If I come back to it, what the hell is that?

So thank God for typing now.

Yeah.

I'm trying to get across the sense of when someone works with you, what

are the key foundations, the pillars?

What I'm getting across is you work very much on, yes, communication is

the superficial thing that people come in for, but the real problem that they

haven't recognized is, they have to become more comfortable with themselves

in order to get the communication skills.

I think you've probably touched on it, but rather than assuming,

what are the pillars that you work

on?

For me, the foundation is starting from that place of self awareness.

That is foundation.

I'd say that, and I'm struck as well, it's almost sounds to me,

it feels like an understatement.

It's blind in a way, it's almost blindingly obvious, but should

not get in the way or the fact that it is absolutely fundamental.

It's always a starting point and it's always a thing to come back to.

So it's yeah, foundational, it's very important.

And by that, self awareness in different ways, like of our thoughts

that come to us, self awareness in terms of the feelings, our emotions,

how we're feeling in a certain situation, but also what are we sensing?

In a given situation what does that lead to.

Not necessarily being able to articulate it in terms of what does that actual

emotional feeling translate as, but it could be like, I'm feeling a

tingling in my head, or I'm feeling my heart doing something or feeling

my stomach or feeling my head.

It'd be something.

So that aspect, there's a self awareness when it comes to words that we use.

And I don't just mean, Oh, that's a clever word or what words we

typically use, but more of the intention with which we use the word.

I think in some posts I mentioned about, some people like to swear a lot in there.

That's the way they speak for me, I guess I do have moments where maybe I swear,

but it's not natural to me to do a lot all the time, even in common speech.

For me, I think there's a purity of intention and.

The words are powerful and they convey that, convey an intention or feeling

or whatever, so even if it's implied, if someone, if I were to say a swear

word, I don't think, for me, I don't feel it's got a purity of intention.

It's important to me to have that integrity, and that comes

with the ways we express.

So that awareness, self awareness of our words, and the other thing is

clearly self awareness of our actions.

How, what we think.

What we say, how we feel, translate into action, or even in action, right?

But it's like, are those aspects, the thoughts, the feelings, the words,

the actions, are they congruent?

And I think if they are congruent, then I think that makes, that is a better

place to be than not, but if something is not quite right, or something's

missing I think people can sense that.

So for me, it's that aspect and clearly the self knowledge, understanding what

we're good at, our strengths, what we like doing, what we're not so good at.

And also of all ways, there's what our weaknesses, what things that

we definitely don't want, or what our values as well, right?

What's, what drives us?

So that aspect of self awareness with which combines also self knowledge.

I thought if the space that comes to communication is what's the

purpose of the communication?

What's out to have awareness?

Why do you want to be a better?

I can say is communication with a partner, life partner, and there's

communication and the work setting or giving a talk or whatever it, whilst

they're fundamentally the same skills in the same place, it's good to have

the intention of what the outcome would be from having been better in our way.

We communicate intentionally.

Yeah.

Which kind of comes to mind it's also awareness of the impact we have on others.

Yes.

Social self awareness, social awareness as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awareness of how others perceive us is obviously another aspect,

facet of self awareness.

That's important.

And how often will they maybe come across people who don't have that awareness?

They say things and it's perfectly natural to them, but you just have no inkling

of just how it's affecting other people.

Yeah okay.

So what do you see are typically are the biggest barriers,

people have in your experience,

I think biggest barrier is often it's not being real with themselves,

at least sharing that they have a need.

And often people are afraid to ask for help or ask for support.

I think there's an aspect of to ask for help to require, or admitting one needs

help or reaching out to ask for help.

It requires humility, requires acceptance that, They need some help

or they there's something that they can work on or they need can improve

their performance in some way.

So I think there's the fact that not having the humility and the

courage to speak up and say, look, I need a bit of help to ask somebody.

And often it's asking someone for help is one thing, but also accepting

help is another side of that too.

I know for me, for example, being fairly Independent minded and

from my upbringing, I've been wanting to do things, et cetera.

It's very difficult for me.

It has been, and I'm getting better at it in terms of not just asking

for help, but also accepting help.

Often, pride holds us back to look, thank you, but I don't need your help.

Which can be a bit antagonistic, but it's also coming from a place of I I'm

worried about, you Having to reciprocate or it puts me in a difficult position,

whatever, or it's admission of weakness.

I think those are fundamentally, I think it's that I'd say nothing

clearly and it's a fear of judgment.

Yeah.

And I've said of ourselves.

Let's not forget that fear of judgment of ourselves and how

others are going to perceive us.

Yeah.

Cause you have to open up and you have to reveal what you feel your deficits.

And it requires trust.

It's a trust in the other person, even maybe to a level of trusting

themselves that this will lead to a positive place or better.

Yeah.

Very true.

Okay.

One, one question we hadn't gone over is you were at the UEA and you were at

Southampton, but what was your subject?

Chemistry.

Very scientific.

I wondered if it was that.

So did you?

I knew you're in the pharmaceutical industry, weren't you?

Yes.

Yes.

So what was your doctorate?

. I've

got my thesis, I'm looking up there.

It's my thesis.

It's the title is novel EthiLipids as Anti Plastic Agents.

I'll interpret that for you.

Basically, it's a type of compounds called lipids.

Basically they make, are.

Cell membranes.

So anyway, the idea was in my research.

I was making or developing new types of molecules based upon these

that would disrupt cell membranes.

Why to be antineoplastic means like cancerous.

So how these molecules could be used as potentially as

drugs to treat cancer cells.

So that was the basis of the actual, research I did.

And, I, my motivation was I want to do something for health of other people

yet to make medicines available.

But I think as well, it was partly to make up for.

not succeeding to become, get onto a, program to become a doctor,

like a medical doctor, because I was interested in healing.

So that's why I did what I did.

I have been in a lab for a while but then my kitchen is my lab.

I experiment a lot with food.

I love it.

But I'm also bringing different things, that I like to play around with.

What's your specialist dish then?

Oh,

it depends.

I like to do steamed fish.

I use a pressure cooker a lot.

See, that's almost like a piece of lab equipment, right?

Put something under high pressure, high heat, just see what comes out.

It's quite fun.

Like a ninja, cooking.

You mean the device or you mean the actual

Yeah, the ninja cooking.

I've

got some, yeah, I've got all the yeah.

I've got it's basically, yeah, it's a, yeah.

Hot pot.

I think it's called.

Is it called a hot?

But it can use it as an air fry.

You can use it as, yeah.

Different things.

But my other thing I like doing is the barbecue like Christmas, the past two

Christmases, I've barbecued like a, an eight kilo Turkey in a barbecue.

Here in England.

Yeah, you know in a barbecue, you know in a grill in a Weber grill

It basically okay, not outside.

Yeah

outside.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's

brave

It's just basically a covered grill.

So I've got the charcoal Indirect heat so it created like a hot space like an oven.

That's why It's come out pretty good, and it's a big turkey to feed a lot of people.

But I think the coming back to the chemistry aspect is a bit like in

the cooking, if I understand what the ingredients are and I understand their

properties, and in the case of bringing them together in some way, If the heat

or whatever it is, steaming or whatever, and then I'll come up with a result.

And that's essentially in a way, what I was doing a bit when I was doing

my chemistry and in the research.

Okay.

I can see a correlation between that and what you're doing now, as in.

I can relate to that because I for me I try and break things down into

principles or ideas or building blocks.

And then you can see, like for me, when I was coaching, I would listen to people,

and it would make up, I would hear their map, you hear their internal map,

and then you can just see where their blind spots are and you can rebuild it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a great skill to have.

It's if anything, I think it satisfies intellectual curiosity, and I also think

it's a way of yeah, in a way, expression of ideas, being able to re synthesize

things and come out with something that's, I say, meaningful and also

insightful, yes, and ultimately helpful.

That's a good thing,

hopefully.

It leads to other ideas.

Now we've talked about your work.

We have an idea of where it came from and the flavor of you that comes through.

So who are the ideal kind of people that you would work with?

What is life like before, during and after working with you?

So my ideal clients.

The people I like to work with are people in the corporate world, let's

say, leaders in the corporate world.

They've done well to get to where they are, and they're perhaps feeling a

little lost as to how do I get there?

Go further up will improve the chances of getting promoted.

Or just having a better sense of what life is going to be for them, right?

Because often it's like getting on a treadmill.

I think I got to run harder, run faster and get somewhere.

But actually, it almost becomes self defeating in a way.

And without a sense of what their direction is.

And how they can apply themselves better in their work.

Be it through better communication, be it being able to make more, I say

meaningful connect relationships, let's say, speaking to you, what you

talk about in terms of relationships.

And through that, it's through the work I do, it's helped them certainly.

That self awareness don't underplay it at all.

It's so important to delve into that and spend time and

understand, help them to explore and understand themselves a bit better.

So then it's what's an area for growth that can then positively impact their

ability, let's say, to communicate, right?

They communicate with other people, with themselves, their teams, et

cetera, get their message across and also feel pretty good about it too.

Being able to let's say hold those difficult conversations that aren't

straightforward, that involve conflict that are maybe just not

pleasant to do, but needed and help them to develop bravery, et cetera.

So I think at the end of it, it's about helping people to be at the end of the

program, say the six month program I'd run to have a better sense of themselves.

And from that, be able to communicate.

With the knowledge of some techniques as well, clearly some

techniques, but ultimately it's a better sense of themselves.

Communicate as themselves without playing a different role, but being

authentically themselves and certain tools to help them keep going, to improve,

to develop a bit more mastery in the aspect that's going to have an impact

on their direction in their career.

In the way they show up in that work, et cetera.

Yeah, I can see what I see is, I think you're at the cross section between

leadership and communication, and people will reach a level where they can't go

beyond by themselves because I think we're a closed system and unless we take

in other ideas and sometimes you need someone, a fresh pair of eyes to bring

in different insights and different, make you aware of different things so

that you can grow to the next level.

And I suppose it seems like they need external skills, but really

they need the internal basis for those external skills to take root.

Yeah, it's awareness and developing awareness or getting

new skills or knowing that there are new skills they can pick up.

But I think perhaps more importantly than that is also develop what they

have already, because at the end of the day, one gets better through doing not

through reading or listening to other people or watching other people do.

It's often about the executing on it, doing, getting your own

experience of it, then you get better.

And I think having that accountability from somebody who's interested in

what you're doing, or rather keeping an attention on what you're doing to grow.

But it's not fixated on you getting somewhere.

It's that long as you made a step back honours what you've done

and what you keep doing, your intention, then that's important.

I'd say is that's very important.

So it's not just the ideas, but it's also putting them into

action or in an intentional way.

We can learn something intellectually and then we try and

do it, but we can't put it in place.

And that's where the master of do, fail do, fail, comes in.

Often, a lot of people, perhaps they may be aware of that need some growth,

but then maybe their managers or their peers may not be the most appropriate

people to help them in their growth.

Not everyone as a team leader or a leader of a subdivision or whatever

organization is ultimately a great coach.

Or a competent coach at that you almost need someone who's removed from it, who

has a unique perspective looking in, that can then say, okay this is what I see.

How does that correlate to you?

And then help them to move forward and to help them to explore and then take action.

Yeah.

I think that's something that's really important.

Looking at relationships, so my background is relationships and from

within the relationship, one person can't be the person, that's the authority

in that relationship because it's like I said it, so it must be right.

You need an external, this is why in conflict, you need a mediator or

something like that because, you need someone different who's independent

so that both can agree rather than my way or that highway kind of thing.

Yeah.

There's a foot almost like a football analogy, or maybe it's a giant thing.

So like the spectator see more of the game than the players.

Yeah.

If you player, you are running around the, the football pitch and you are,

passing the ball, scoring a ball, whatever it is, scoring a goal.

You see what the spectator, they can see the context of

just what is happening globally.

Yeah.

So there's a different perspective that's unique and important.

Yeah, I can't remember who I heard it say it, but, I think it

was a manager and that, often they would watch from the stands, because

you can't see from the dugout.

I think it was Gary Neville, because from the dugout you're so close, all is legs.

So yeah, you need the perspective.

That's a great way of putting it.

Okay before we go, if you had one message to someone who was thinking of

embarking on, or looking for more mastery, better communication more comfort with

leading, what was your message to them?

My message is that they have what they need already.

What they do need though, is someone to help bring that out of themselves.

That means their character, which obviously can always do with some

refinement, but it's about believing in themselves, that self acceptance

and self awareness that we get.

And they have the ability to make themselves better.

Really come out in a way which plays to their strengths, their abilities,

and I think that's a purpose, a sense of their purpose and identity.

I often come back to children's stories and the Wizard of Oz, is

one that always sums this up that we all go through life thinking

that we're missing something.

Yes.

And we actually had it all along.

We just needed the journey to, to realize it.

Yes.

Like the the lion who thought that he didn't have any courage, but he was very,

it was very self conscious, but also, was telling people that he had no courage and

he was on the search for more courage, but he, there were times when he did show

amazing bravery, so you had it all along.

It's the same with the other characters.

It's quite interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's the journey that made it come up that, that, that is the journey,

the act of the journey itself.

That.

It's all there, but I think by being more aware of it, it becomes more overtly

apparent in the way that we show up, the way we do things, the way we hold

ourselves, the way we just speak and act.

Yeah.

It goes back to Joseph Campbell again on the hero's journey is that.

We have to go through the external, so for example, Star Wars was written

on it and Matrix and things like that.

And it looks like it's about fighting the empire and, freeing

humanity and things like that.

But actually it's about self doubt and, yeah, personal mastery.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

So they all, so I don't know if you're Yoda or Obi

Wan Kenobi or something, but you're so you're the the mentor.

I have there have been times when I sensed when someone was following me.

With a negative intent, a malicious intent.

And yeah, someone did say when I recounted that story, they think,

are you a Jedi or something?

But it has been very, I've been proved right that it, that there was definitely

something, even like a dodgy or something wasn't quite right with those

people who were trying to follow me.

But yeah.

Okay.

This has been fascinating to, to learn more about you, your personal

journey and how you work with people.

Thank you for your time.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Thank you, Rob.

I didn't get to ask any questions, but yourself, but

maybe that'd be another time.

Yeah, sure.