With the back to school season fast approaching, there's no better time to start preparing our kiddos for a smooth transition back to the routine.

In Part 2 of our Back To School: Smooth Transitions series, we'll continue to talk about super practical strategies that you can start using before the school bell rings. Think less chaos in the mornings, smoother drop-offs, and ways to help your little ones cope when they're running on empty at the end of the day. Whether you’ve got neurodiverse or neurotypical kids, we're sharing tips that’ll help set everyone up for success and make those transitions feel like a breeze.

Timestamps:

(01:36) - Welcome

(12:27) - Strategies for Morning Routines

(22:12) - Reinforcing Positive Behaviours in Children

(38:21) - The Importance of Curiosity and Reinforcement

(40:40) - For Teachers & Clinicians

(49:58) - Final Thoughts

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Elemenoe Transition Toolkit - Back to School edition
• The Kissing Hand by Aubrey Penn
• Get Out Of Your Mind and Into Your Life by Steven C. Hayes

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Part two is about what we can actually do.

So we're getting really practical, talking about strategies for back to school transitions, what to do before it even starts, how to make mornings feel less chaotic, how to support that drop off, how to use some strategies like first, then without making it like a list of demands, and then helping your kid when they're just like, completely exhausted at the end of the day. So part one is like sort of, why is this so hard? And getting curious and helping you get curious. And then part two is more like, how do we help?

Hey, everyone. I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shawna, behaviour analysis.

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from Elemenoe, brought to you by the Sensory Supply.

While we aim to make Neurodiversally Speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes, sometimes be discussed, suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram @NeurodiversallySpeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at [email protected] Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Neurodiversally Speaking. I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shauna, behavior analyst.

Thanks for joining us today. So, talking about Back to School again. We had a previous episode and this is part two of our Back to School Transitions conversation.

What are some of the.

Maybe, I don't know.

I was gonna ask you what are some of the books that you guys use in your house about Back to School, but maybe you don't.

I don't mean to put you on the spot. Yeah, we've done, like, I think you've given me all the ones that we have, like Llama Llama, Ghost Disqual is like, one of my favorites.

Love it.

Sweet.

But I wouldn't say we do a lot of books.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, that's. I do use that in my family a lot There's a cute series.

You can get them for every grade,.

Actually, like, the night before preschool. Twas the night.

I have that for me.

Yeah. Twas the night before first grade. And they're just cute.

And it kind of does talk you through, like, the routine and, like, you know, some of the pieces to expect. I like those ones.

I think that's a really good idea for parents maybe that think, like, oh, I don't know how to get curious.

Yeah.

I find books are really helpful sometimes to help me understand, like, oh, that's your perspective. So it sounds like those books might be really nice for those types of things. Yeah.

And then like, I talked about in the last episode about school transitions. I love, like, the kissing hand. Talking of, like, making that really the language around, like, hey, maybe you're gonna feel sad, but it's okay.

And so we can kiss each other's hand and then come back at the.

End of the day.

So.

Yeah.

Okay. So this is part two of our back to school transitions conversation. We talked about how it's not just one day, not just one transitions.

It's actually like a hundred different transitions.

Within a single day. And then also that keeps repeating itself.

Exactly. And could be like three to six months sometimes that we're struggling with that.

Right? Yes. And I think sort of our key thoughts are like, it's not a behavior problem. Or I guess maybe it is a behavior problem.

Cause it is a problem to you, but it's not bad behavior. The child's not trying to be bad. Right.

But it's usually reflective of maybe a communication difference or deficit, a skill deficit, a nervous system overload. You know, something like that.

Exactly.

And then we talked about using acceptance and commitment therapy as a lens to approach the problem.

And of course, we're not psychologists here, but in simple terms, like sort of taking this idea that we don't have to erase those hard feelings in order for the child to be successful and that we can feel nervous and do it.

Yes, exactly.

That they can feel sad and still say goodbye. And with repeated practice, hopefully they're feeling less sad. Sad and more confident. And I. The reason I love act.

Well, many reasons, but I think it's such a confidence builder. Right. Like, hard things happen. And the best thing that we can teach our kids is to be resilient when those hard things come up.

And some of these scripts can be really, really helpful.

What I love about it is it's not dismissing. And so you and I, and like most in our generation sort of grew up naturally of this like dismissal, like you're okay, you're fine, or like don't.

Cry kind of feelings.

And so we're not just completely dismissing it, but we're also not dismissing sitting in it forever. And so we're not over pathologizing.

Oh, you must be so sad.

This is so tricky. I wonder how you're feeling. And so I love it because it gives us that acknowledgement but then the ability to move through it.

Right.

And that prac and like the tying into your values, building that resiliency. And so like I, like I talked about in the last one, I've got these phrases on my phone, like these go to act phrases that I just love.

And so building some of those scripts can be super helpful in this transition time.

And it really builds that interoception ability that we talked about on the previous episode. Episode with the OT for your child. Right. Because often, myself included. Right.

Like sometimes my body feels weird, but it takes my brain a while to pick up on the fact that my stomach's feeling weird, you know, and it's not until I'm like having a big reaction or like, you know, something else that comes out that I'm like, whoa, where did that come from? Yeah. But there was all these little signs in my body that I was not paying attention to. Right. And so with children, sort of that same thing. Right.

We're naming that feeling for them. Oh, are you? And sometimes with my son, my older one, I'll give them some options if I'm not sure, like, are you feeling scared or nervous?

Yeah.

Right. And that way we're like sort of working through like, oh, and where do you feel that in your body?

Like, I might get curious that way and help them be like, okay, yeah.

If you're feeling in your stomach, sometimes some deep breaths help or coming up with some of those strategies that can help your nervous system reset. One thing we've started doing in our house are these 10 second hugs.

Because research shows that a 10 second hug with someone can really like help regulate your nervous system. Again, I love that. And so we've been doing it like, I'll ask for a 10 second hug if I'm feeling sad or overwhelmed.

And then same, I'm encouraging them to do the same. And that way I'm giving them the tools that they need, hopefully to give their body that reset and something they can advocate for on their own.

Oh, I love that.

Yes.

So part one was really understanding what is underneath the behavior and sort of what's going on with all these Transitions and why back to school in particular is a hard season. Yeah.

And for parents, sort of naming and reminding us them that there's all these different pieces to their day. And so part two is about what.

We can actually do.

So we're getting really practical, talking about strategies for back to school transitions, what to do before it even starts, how to make mornings feel less chaotic, how to support that drop off, how to use some strategies like first then without making it like a list of demands. And then helping the your kid when they're just like completely exhausted at the end of the day.

Yes.

So part one is like sort of why is this so hard? And getting curious and helping you get curious. And then part two is more like how do we help?

Exactly.

And we mentioned this in the last episode, we do have a transition toolkit that can be downloaded that has a lot of these strategies in it as well as sort of the materials you might need if you want like a fancy version. But I will say progress over perfection and like whatever you got is good and get creative with your materials.

It doesn't always have to be as perfect as you think.

Yeah, exactly. No laminators needed. Post its are fine. But if you want to go that way, we've made that.

And it's just like a really nice reference too to give you some ideas of where to start.

All right, first strategy is that first then. And I think the biggest piece here is that the then needs to be meaningful. And that's where that act sort of perspective comes in as well.

Because we talked about sort of this idea of moving through the feelings, but not the why you should move through the feelings. Right. And so we should tie it into a value of ours.

Right.

And so for myself, for example, I don't love public speaking. Right. I get very nervous. I would just like run out of the room if I could.

But really important to me to like share what we're doing and like have these interesting professional opportunities. And so that's my why.

As a side note, last time you and I were at a conference, at the very end, we are all. We spoke and we did our presentation. It was so good.

We were so happy.

And you were like a minute before I was gonna bolt.

Yeah. Every time I say, any time that we are presenting, I'm like, good to go.

I always make Britney starter presentations so that I can just like settle in and be calm or else I would just go, you know, like, my body, like my brain was literally like, you should just out the door. I think it'd Be fine.

She'll be fine.

So funny.

Yes.

And I had no idea sitting there like, oh, good thing you stayed.

Yes.

And so that's why we, like, that's the why we want to work through those hard feelings. Right. Is like, if I didn't have that confidence in myself, is barely there one small percent of confidence. Right. I would have left.

But what I needed to do was work through that moment, because it's important to me to work through that moment. If it's not important to me, I never have to put, like, you know, if I don't want to do these professional activities, I don't have to.

I have free will. And we could not do these things. But I do love it when we're done. And, like, I'm really proud of us.

And I feel like the information we have to share is, like, interesting. And so that's my why.

Yeah.

Right. And so for the kids, too, like, that's the thing. So the first then strategy. I want to come back to their why.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

And not just put a, like, first brush your teeth, then get dressed.

Yeah, exactly.

Unless they really love getting dressed. If they do, then by all means, that's a great strategy.

But that's the difference between this, the first then strategy, and just a visual schedule. So what you said there is like, yeah, sure, we. We brush our teeth and then we get dressed. And so if you had that as a visual schedule, great.

And so we're just going through the motions. But what we're talking about now is this pre Mac principle that the first and then.

Thank you.

The first then that the then actually signals this, like, cool thing.

Yes.

It makes the easier. The first part easier to get through for sure. First podcast, then coffee.

Right, Exactly.

Whatever. Yes, yes.

I would say a strong visual schedule often should have a strong then at the end. Yeah, you're right.

You're like, we often do these visual schedules, and for independent activity schedules, they're called clinically, where they follow, do the triangle box first, then the circle, then whatever. And then usually at the end is like, what their preferred activity is.

And then what we try to do over time is fade out that preferred activity and make it more of a neutral activity. So maybe initially it's the iPad, because I want them to stay focused. I want them to get their work done and be motivated to see the iPad.

And then what I might change the iPad to later is like, you can go choose a book in the quiet area. And that's something they like to do. Right. But it's Not a screen, which is not feasible in a classroom sort of thing.

Like you're trying to get back to what's like sort of the natural progress here. So a visual schedule with a reinforcer at the end is a really nice strategy if your child's older. Because the first then is like a lot of work. Right.

Like you're sort of catching every transition often. But some of the things, some easy thens are like picking the song in the car.

Yeah. So first get your shoes on and then you're picking the song in the car.

Yes, I do. Like first or in our house, like breakfast, they generally like. And so like, getting downstairs for breakfast is generally motivating for them.

And so trying to like get all the other stuff they need to do done upstairs and then we'll go downstairs and have breakfast is usually a motivator.

So first get dressed, then breakfast.

Exactly. Yeah. And I'm like. I would say I use it when I need it in my house. I'm not like, super consistent about it.

But if they're sort of dilly dallying, I'm like, hey, guys, remember, right. Let's get downstairs so we have enough time for breakfast and don't have to rush out the door.

Right, right, exactly. And so you want to avo just that like, list of demands, like first get dressed, then brush your teeth, then.

Pack your bag and then get in the car. There's nothing motivating here. No, no, I. I'm checked out.

I'm not gonna get dressed because I don't want to brush my teeth, I don't wanna pack my bag and I also don't wanna get in the car.

Yeah.

So I don't care about any. So I'm not doing it.

So I'm gonna sit on the floor. Unless.

Yes.

That was an example from our last episode that your son often goes. Forgets the underwear piece.

Yes, yes, exactly. I'm good here. I don't need it. I didn't mean to just say that.

We're going unless on the phone.

I feel like that was such a.

Thinking about your side and now he's just. That was not part of the chain for him.

Sorry.

My brain. Okay, let's come back here. So the next strategy. So we talked about, the first then is an excellent strategy, especially.

And the whole idea is the then needs to be something a little bit more motivating or reinforcing. Exactly.

Which sort of is this, like, next strategy, I would say, which is trying to focus on the next. Yes, the next thing. Right. Because this Thing is not fun.

Yes.

I don't really like brushing my teeth. Right. You know, and so there's really like nothing you can do to make brushing my teeth teeth fun potentially. You know, like I would argue with that.

There's definitely some stuff you could do. But like let's say in the moment for the child, there's like nothing that's going to make that like more palatable to them.

So we just have to move through it. Right. And move on to the thing that is better.

And like as grown ups, we have all kinds of things that we have to do in life that we don't want to do and we do them anyways because of a whole bunch of behavioral principles. But for the kids, we want to try and pick those moments too for them. Like what's the thing that's sort of pushing you to do it?

Yeah, exactly. See like what we're moving towards. So some examples of that would be like after school we'll have a snack and have some nice quiet cuddle time.

Exactly. Um, and then I think the other thing you can focus on is like setting up those routines. Right.

We talked a lot in the last episode about the benefits of routines being creating that consistency, reducing the cognitive load. And then some kids sort of get stuck in the now and their brain's not switching to that next.

And so saying something simple like when you get to class, your first job is to hang up your backpack. Right. Can help that. That transition.

They're.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

I actually can see the transition now. Whereas I was. All I could see is me leaving you. Right. You know.

Right. And I need a job or something to do.

Yes.

So focusing on what's coming next, that's really the, the strategy that we're talking about there.

Yes. And if you can make it fun. Right. So some, some things we have to do, I don't have good strategies for, you know.

And again, as a parent you'll have different strategies for different activities. But if we can make it fun, like my son's really into dinosaurs right now.

Can we stomp like dinosaurs to the bus stop or stomp like dinosaurs to the car?

Right.

And like making things like just like a little bit more gamified for the children than just like going through the motions.

Yeah, exactly.

Extra effort for us.

But my, my little one was noticing that there's some. They've always been there but on the sidewalk to our school there's like at one point there's like stomp feet and.

And then the one point there's like Skipping little feet that someone's like, paint, like, they've painted on the sidewalk. And. And she said to me, me, do you think that's to help kids get.

Them to school faster?

And I was like, yes, that's exactly what it is.

Yes. And again, switches the brain from, like, school, school, school, school. Oh, how am I hopping on these things? Right.

And so I stopped ruminating, enter into, like, my present moment, and then I'm able to, like, do the transition. Yeah.

So I genuinely love those. And if you don't have them, I know Sensory Supply actually has cool stuff.

Like that, like getting in the front door.

And our school actually just ended up our school and purchasing some of those things where you've got, like, the stomping.

Feet, like, coming right through and, like,.

Down the hall, there's, like, that ladder. So the kids kind of have fun walking through it.

Anyways, so our whole point here is saying, like, shift on what's next and, like, help them sort of get through that in a more fun way if you can.

Yes, exactly. For the third strategy here, the warnings.

So we talked a lot in the last episode about how, as parents, the morning routine can be very stressful for so many reasons. But often there's a mismatch in values where I need to get out the door because I need to go to a meeting.

Yeah.

My child does not care to get to school on time at all. And it's just, like, happy to float through the morning and get there when he gets there. And so we've got a mismatch here.

And so my nervous system could already be, like, at its peak, you know? And so sometimes when we're giving these warnings, we're like, three minutes.

Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.

And then you were talking about a nice warning strategy that you changed, which is like, making these little rhymes up. Eight, 24 out the door. Right. Because we're then giving a warning that we're shifting. Right. That transition is imminent.

We're moving, but in a fun way that feels like calm to receive and.

Cute instead of, let's go, let's go. Yeah, exactly. But having a sense of time is so time.

So incredibly abstract for kids.

And we mentioned this in the last episode, too, that sometimes two minutes actually means ten, because I'm like, two more.

Minutes, and then I get distracted.

And so unless we're setting a timer, then that can be.

Be super abstract.

So what our suggestion is is to give warnings that mean something. So for example, two more Lego pieces, then backpack or like one more drawing, then pencils down.

Right, Exactly. Or another strategy I would use. Here I was alone in the mornings with my firstborn and like coming to work and stuff.

And so I would get him ready, I would set him up with breakfast and then I put. Put something on TV so that I could go and get ready. Cuz he was like two or three. Right. I can't really like trust him to be that responsible.

But a screen would distract him.

Yeah.

But I would pick shows that I knew that they were short. So like Bluey is really good because I think each episode's like eight minutes or something.

And so I try my very best, even still, really to not transition mid show. Right. As I try to be thoughtful about what I'm allowing them to watch.

So that then I'm ending like the show's ending and we're transitioning versus I'm pausing it and then we're in some sort of back and forth about it, you know. And I've already sort of messed up the calm morning routine that we have.

So if you are someone that does screen time in the morning, that's a strategy I've found to be really successful.

And we do the same with songs. And so I'll be like, okay, I know that we've got 10 minutes or something like that. So I'm.

Or maybe not 10 minutes, maybe five minutes is a good example. So I'm gonna say two songs.

Right.

So we'll put on right now it's Alex Warren in our house, which you and I both love. But then so I'll say like, okay, two. Two more songs and then we're going. And so it's the same sort of idea, like I'm gonna set it up and so.

So saying like something that's more concrete. Exactly. And then I kind of calculating the time so that we're not leaving mid show or mid song.

Exactly. And then if you are using time, the visual timers can be a really good strategy so that they can see the time even if they're older children.

And certainly if they're neurodivergent, that time tracking is really tricky. And so a visual timer can be super helpful if you prefer a time based transition. But I would say most times the time based transition does not work.

And it wouldn't work for you and I either. Right. Like if I said, all right, Brittany, in five minutes we gotta go.

Yeah, but you were in the middle of say, an email that had to get out before we Left. And that was going to take you more than five minutes to write that email. Then, like, the five minutes is actually, like, not helpful. Yes.

Whereas what we should have done is, like, been like, I got an email to do. I got an email to do. Once we're done those emails, we're going.

To go, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

Or like, if someone's in the middle of the Housewives, like, we got to go. Like, I can't go. I got to finish this episode. And so I get it.

I get why they're annoyed, you know, and so we can set up the environment too, as parents so that those transitions are smoother. Funny thing.

I will for myself stop halfway through a show if it's like a time. Like, I like, have these rules about, like, I have to be in bed by like a certain time. Oh.

And so myself, like, even if my show is like 20 minutes or something, I will stop. Do you ever do that? Or you just like, barrel through. Oh, no.

Like, I was certainly responsible my show if I have to.

But there's like a big reunion on, for example, earlier this week and like, Tim was, or my husband was like, do you want to, I don't know, play a game or something? No, I don't.

No.

Yeah.

I cannot pause this here, you know, so if I don't have to, if I'm trying to be responsible and go to bed, like, something like that. Like, yeah, we were watching a show last night and would pause it.

But in general, like, or like if you're mid text message and like, they're like, put your phone down. Right. Like, you're just like not going to do that. You're going to finish your message and then go.

And so anyways, I would say trying to think of it from that perspective too. It's like, what's actually practical here? Or like, if they're mid building something in. Right.

You either got to finish this or we, we have to agree on an ending point here.

Yes.

And it shouldn't be just me coming up with the ending point because I don't know what you're trying to do.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I, I, I just think it's funny because my husband will never pause ever.

Oh, really?

He'll stay up until forever. You know, it's like, why would we pause it in the middle?

We're gonna watch it till the end.

And I'm like, well, we gotta get to bed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I would say I do like my sleep as well. Exactly. And yes, yes, exactly.

Sorry, tangent. There but yes, time is abstract.

And what we're sort of saying here is that, like, sometimes if it is a concrete time, that doesn't make sense if we're in the middle of something or for, like.

Right. And, like, we have, again, the executive, functioning, planning skills to know. Like, okay, we've got 15 minutes till school starts.

I know I can clear a couple emails or something like that. Right, right. I know that. But kids do not know that. And, like, their brains are not developed into the. Until they're in their 20s. Right.

So that's like a long time. That. That. And then if you are neurodivergent, it might be even trickier. Like some of those things. And so I like the concrete transition more.

Yeah, exactly. So think about it like one more song like we talked about, or one more show like we talked about, or two more jumps. Two.

Like, something really, really concrete.

Then I do that, then strategy. Right. So I often find with my husband, he's like, it's like, it's not the way that you've worded this. Sounds demotivating.

I don't want to do what you've said. Yeah. I'm trying to think of an example. I'll be like, okay, two more jumps, and then we're going to go clean the garage. I don't want to do that.

They don't want to do that. And so instead, like, two more jumps, and then we're gonna pick the song in the car, you know, like, so I'm talking about the transition.

When's the boundary? And then I'm also talking about what's next so that their brain, again, can picture that next.

Yeah.

And knows that they're not just leaving, like, their favorite thing and now going to clean the garage.

So boring.

Yeah, exactly. It drives me nuts, man. All right, so then another key thing, and I feel like this is missed so often, is reinforcing that cooperation early.

And what I mean by reinforcement is sort of like naming it, it, tagging it in some way. That behavior that you want to see again and again and again and again and again.

I love that. And I do think, as parents, I often think of this as we're always catching the thing that they didn't do.

And so by reinforcing that cooperation early, you're catching the good things that they are doing.

Exactly.

And so you're, like, not just waiting for the whole thing to be done. You're catching that, like, first sign. They're like, hey, you got your toothbrush.

Thank you.

Nicely done. Or like, you came to the door when I called.

That was amazing.

Yes. And I think we have to, like, almost consciously relearn to mo.

To, like, knowledge, acknowledge and notice those things when our kids are doing something like that, because it's. Our brains just go to, like, oh, you didn't do that, or you didn't do that.

Yes, exactly. And, like, when things are going well, we don't tend to notice as much. Yeah, exactly.

One, like, sort of rule that I have is, like, if I'm giving corrective feedback or saying, like, we gotta get out the door, like, I need you to hurry up or stay focused, is as soon as the behavior shifts, I notice any sort of shift, I'm going to reinforce right away. And so I try to tie my corrective feedback with a positive interaction sort of time, like, right after, if I can. And that way I've shift our.

I've shifted our contingency too. I don't have to be this, like, negative person that's just, like, nagging you. Right?

I might be nagging you, but then I'm also coming in with, like, hey, you got your toothbrush? Thanks, man.

Yeah, cool, cool.

Okay.

I like that.

And so I find that that works well, at least as a rule, to remind yourself, because, like you said, you do have to relearn some of it. Or, like, it's a conscious effort for parents because you're busy too. Right. I'm thinking of the seven things we need to pack to get out the door.

I don't have time to be like, oh, wow, you got your shoes on. Great job.

And so I find that for sure, if I've done corrective feedback, then in my brain, you know, I'm like, okay, now make sure to come in with that other thing. So that can be really helpful, for sure. In the. The toolkit as well, we talk about reinforcing those small steps towards success as well.

And so there's some other examples in there. So I do recommend kind of checking it out.

Yeah, for sure. All right, next strategy we've got for you is staying connected and calm. And this one sounds so simple, but it can be super hard.

It is. Especially with the chaos of the morning.

Yeah, exactly. And so some of the scripts that we might use is like, I see this feels big. I'm right here. Or, like, you can bring the nervous feelings with you.

And that's okay.

Yep. It's okay to feel nervous. It's normal to feel nervous sometimes. I'll talk about the brain, too.

I mean, like, the brain might be telling you that you can't do this, but you can do it and I'm here with you. And sort of externalizing the feeling too, talking about how it might feel in their body.

So again they know that that's why their stomach's feeling that way. And here's a strategy for if your stomach's feeling this way. Let's do a 10 second hug. Let's.

And you know, and I, I think sometimes we gotta think about if I just take the 10 seconds now and support this, the rest of our morning's gon smoother instead of staying stuck in our own sort of rumination and loop like we got to get out the door, we got to go, we got to go, we got to go. I'm going to spend more time arguing with you than a 10 second hug. For sure?

Yes, for sure, for sure.

And so the act informed language really fits so beautifully here where we're not trying to erase the hard feelings, we're trying to help them make room for that and then also still like move towards what matters or sort of the expectations or their values when we can.

Yeah, exactly. And so like this is hard, but we can do hard things together.

And sometimes I'll try to make an a mental note for myself is like remembering when they did got through a hard thing. And I'll use that as an example. Like you can do hard things. Do you remember when you learned to ride your bike?

And at first we were really wobbly.

And then you got it and so that was another time where you did something really hard and then look at you now. And so I'll remind them of that.

Like I saw a really nice strategy for that if you have a kid that is more of a visual learner where you put like a, a gem or something in a container every time they do something hard.

Yes.

And then that way, especially for some of our neurodivergent kids, like if you put like a purple gem gem in for the time that they to karate like the first time and then that you gave them a green gem for passing their swimming test or like those types of things they'll remember. The purple gem was for this, the blue gem was for this and that sort of thing.

And so this visual can sort of like give them that feedback of hey yeah, I did do those hard things. And so if you have a child where maybe processing language in the moment is tricky or they have maybe delayed language, then these visual.

I thought like, oh, this visual strategy is really nice. Or for my, my kids are still young and so something like that could be a good strategy for them.

I love that. I love that. Yeah. So either keep a sort of mental note in your head or keep a note on your phone or start something visual like that.

I think that's a great idea of remembering. Like, we can do these hard things and we can get through this together.

Yes.

But then let's also talk about, like, what sort of to avoid or what not to do. And so we nodded to this in our last episode. But you don't necessarily want to be, like, you're gonna love school. It'll be amazing.

It's gonna be the best time ever.

And so instead, you might want to try, like, you might feel nervous, you might feel excited.

And that's okay.

It's okay to feel both of those things at the same time.

Right. And I think from a clinical standpoint, the rationale for this. Right. Is that you don't want to be lying to them.

Yes.

And then they're actually not learning how to manage these emotions that they're bound to face again. You're learning being nervous is bad.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

You're learning being sad is bad.

Right.

And that's not what we want. Because as humans, for better, for worse, we experience a spectrum of emotions. And so by teaching them, you might feel nervous. I'm with you. Right.

You know, then it's like, okay, you can do this same. Like, that's what I'm doing to myself before we speak all the time. Right. I'm feeling nervous. My brain's saying, you gotta go.

I'm saying, you can do it, you know, And I'm trying. There's a curriculum. I'm trying to think of what it's called right now, but they call it, like, fighting back with facts.

And so you, like, you know, your brain's telling you something, and then we can tell it something else. Right. And then what we're doing as parents here is really teaching them those scripts so that they can fight back with their brain.

And again, that's how I word it to my own children. It's like your brain is probably telling you that this is scary.

Right.

And, like, there is a lot of unknowns here. We don't know who your teacher is. We don't know what friends are in your class. Like, I totally get that.

Yeah, exactly.

Let's remind your brain that you can do this.

Yeah. And so talking through it, but then also not over talking.

And so there's this sort of, like, fine line where you're not, like, explaining the whole day. And, like, Going over it over and over and over again. You're kind of doing it, you're getting there.

You're like talking about the strategy and where we're going next. But then sometimes keeping it simple is helpful too.

Exactly. And like saying something like, you might feel nervous and excited both make sense. And then I'm sort of, I'm moving on to what's next.

Right.

That going back to that other strategy of like, okay, so now we're gonna get in the car and let's pick a song. Right. And let's dance in the car. Right.

So I'm like, I'm saying my thing to validate what they say and then I'm giving them that strategy to switch their brain from that rumination.

Exactly.

And I'm not over talking like it's okay to feel nerv. Nervous. Don't worry. It's okay. It's okay. Everything's fine, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, then I'm actually like creating some sort of anxiety loop and the kids brains don't know how to get out of that loop. We gotta help them. Right. And so over talking is in two ways.

One could be like trying to be like really supportive, like, you're okay, you can do this, whatever. Right.

Or we might also see it where like, okay, first we're gonna wake up, then we're gonna brush our teeth and you're gonna get on the bus and we're gonna go to school. At school you're gonna do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I'm gonna pick up you, you up. And that's just like so overwhelming for some kids.

Yeah, it's a lot of information.

Yes. And again, some people might like it.

Y.

And actually I remember clinically some research came out a while ago now looking at visual schedules and comparing the kids responses to the visual schedules. And some kids did not like the visual schedule.

Right.

Because they didn't want a constant visual reminder of the bad like of their day.

Yes, that's right.

I don't really need to know about this. And so like a first then strategy or something smaller was actually better for them.

And they did fine like with the transition physicians, even though they didn't have that big schedule.

Right.

And so I think again, thinking about ourselves, I. Or when I read this, I was like thinking about myself. Like I don't love like getting needles or like giving blood or something.

Oh really?

And so if I, I used to have like a, like a real fear. I've done a lot of work on myself to like, go and sit for these appointments now.

But I was thinking, like, if I had that on my schedule, you know, would I want to see it throughout the day?

Right, right.

And I'm actually. I don't know that it makes a difference for me. I feel like maybe because I'm too, like, I'm a grown up now.

And so I just like, keep, like, I'll just remember. I'm not sure, but I thought it was like, interesting research to think about and like, really comes down to that customization and that.

That's an important piece.

Yeah, exactly. I was teasing. Obviously, most people don't like needles.

No, I. I hate them, though.

Yes, yes, yes.

I would say, like, I. I used to have a very big reaction to them.

Fair.

Like, would scream and cry and I had to get them often.

Yeah.

So it's like a core memory for me.

Well, right.

And then so parenting baby Shauna, or not baby, but like little Shauna, it's like, you know, how nice would that have been to be able to tell yourself, like, I can do hard things. I'll get through this. And then think about whatever that.

Yeah, I think my mom tried her best.

I know.

Like, I. I was. It was very challenging.

Very challenging.

I don't know what she could have done. I think I probably need to be in therapy. Okay. So, yeah.

Avoiding that over reassurance and avoiding over talking, I would say in general, you could apply that to like anything that you're doing.

Exactly.

And then the next thing we'll see is those threats or consequences. And I was really pondering that this, this week. Think. Because people will often say that we're like, bribing.

Yes.

Right. And so I was like, really? I'm like, what do I say? I had a parent say that to me and, like, was like, well, no, it's not bribing because it's planned.

And like, we have this up. And they're like, well, I just want them to do it right. I was like, yeah, I get that. But they're not doing it right.

And so, like, that's not working right. And for kids, like, they're still learning that intrinsic motivation and then.

And they just like, don't understand how the world works to, like, have some of that, you know, but on the reverse, people are so easy to pull things away. Right. No screen time anymore. No this anymore. But are not quick to then say, if you do this, you get more screen time.

Right.

And I think it's such an interesting thing. So many parents, my friends included, will say, like, well, we don't want to bribe our kids.

Yes.

I'm like, well, it's not like I'm not in the moment being like, I'll give you chocolate. You know, it's like a planned thing. This is another episode.

But.

And so I would say avoid starting with threats and consequences. Punishment, like, I would say, hardly ever works in the long run. And so saying something like, if you don't get ready, no iPad later, Right?

Yeah.

Like, are you actually gonna follow through on that?

And then those things aren't tied together either.

No.

Getting ready is not like a natural consequence with iPad time. Like, they don't really go together. And so that's another tricky thing.

Exactly.

Okay, so let's pause for a second. You said this is sort of a whole other episode, and I agree. I really want to do this as an episode.

But we've talked about it, and I've learned a lot of this from you. And through behavior analysis, the difference between bribing and setting something up.

So just in this talking about back to school, you know, we're talking about avoiding those threats and consequences. And so if we set something up ahead of time, we're not bribing.

And that's exactly the strategy we just talked about was like, first school, then mommy cuddle time. And so I'm not bribing you by going to school and saying you're going to get cuddles.

I'm just setting it up that this is something trickier that you don't. That maybe you don't want to do.

And then afterwards, we're going to do, like, you know, after the first day of school with my kids, I'm probably taking them out to swish LA or McDonald's or something like that. And so we're doing something cool after the fact. That is not bribing them.

And that's something that, again, I want to come back to time and time again because we're setting it up ahead of time. And so it's not that, like, they're screaming in the schoolyard. And then all of a sudden I'm like, I'll give you this lollipop if you go in.

And that's the key difference.

The key difference. I'm calm. I'm in control. I've set this up ahead of time. And then the thing is, as well, I'm not adding it on to everything you're doing. Right.

When we, in the first episode, we talk about getting curious, right. Thinking about those hard moments.

And so what I want to do is think about what I'm going to do after that heart, like, what am I going to do to help that then strategy in that hard moment. Right.

And so I'm coming in with a strong plan, knowing that this is hard for you, tying it potentially to an external reinforcer or like something in the environment, like extra cuddle time, like something abnormal, you know, or out of routine. Right. And sometimes it just works like within the natural. Like what we're looking for is that natural consequence. Right. And getting back to that.

But initially, sometimes an artificial reinforcer or something you're adding into the routine is necessary just to get some momentum going and then I can fade that out thoughtfully. But you and I have moments of that in our lives all the time.

Yeah.

And I think again, as adults, we forget that we have a lot of reinforcers within that govern our behavior.

Right.

People often talk about getting paid to go to work. Would you still go to work if you didn't get paid?

Right.

The kids are not getting paid to go to school, you know.

Right.

And so, like, really, what is the motivation to go there? And we find things. Right. That social connection. You love the computer activities, you love going on the field trips, like whatever those things are.

Right. There's moments of the day that spark joy and we time into those. Another example often use is like going to the gym.

I think a lot of adults would love to go to the gym. Yep. You know, and sometimes it just sits as a love never becomes an actual thing that you do.

And I've certainly gone in different es and flows throughout my life. And sometimes tagging something onto it or adding it on to a habit that you already have or something like that. Right.

Can help you get going with this new thing for sure. And it's not enough to just simply want to do it. Yeah. Sometimes you need that extra push. So that's my little soapbox on bribery.

No, exactly. And I go to the gym because I go with my friend. It's the best. And then we sit in the massage chairs after the best time ever. Yes. And so.

Yeah, exactly. We do as adults, we do these things.

And I think, like, our sort of point here is that you're like, you were saying, like, there's natural reinforcement throughout our day as adults. And then it's okay to think about it that way for kids.

And so like you said, like, we're oft often parents might think like, oh, I'm always like, I gotta take this.

Away or take that away.

But when are we actually thinking about. About adding something in?

Exactly. And letting them know, that's great. And then if I'm always the one taking things away, one, that's not going to help your morning routine for sure.

Threats are just going to make the nervous system for both of you more dysregulated. No one's kind of coming back and connecting. And so avoiding threats or consequences whenever possible.

Yeah.

If I was going to put a consequence in, I would talk to them about it the night before.

Yeah.

And be like, hey, here's a plan. Yesterday morning. Morning sucked.

Right.

I don't want to do that again. Yeah, I don't think you want to do it again. What do you. And I'll get their opinion. What do you think? No, I don't want to do that again either. Right.

Okay, great. This morning we've talked about it. This is the plan.

And if I think that we've got a good plan, I've embedded, you know, thought about all these things, then, you know what? If you're not meeting my expectations, then maybe I don't.

I can't think of a time I've done this, but if I was going to do it, I would set it up as like an, Again, an antecedent strategy where they know.

Yes.

What the expectations are. And I'm not coming in, in the moment being like, I'm taking away your iPad.

Yeah, exactly.

Because then, one, I'm unpacking. Predictable. Two, I'm disregulated.

Volatile.

Yeah, exactly. And so I become negative to them. Right. I become something that they want to fight back with.

Yeah.

And same with if I said you, hey, Britney, I'm taking your computer away. Right.

Like, what?

No, like, that is insane. Right. Like, your back would be up. You'd be like, who's this woman? Get out of here. And we don't want to be like that with the kids either.

Yeah, exactly. So those threats don't work. And so there's some really good ways that you can do come up around it.

You can use the reinforcement and help this back to school transition.

Yes.

Be much more successful.

And in the long run, reinforcement trumps punishment every single time.

Exactly.

And then as behavior analysts, we actually cannot use punishment strategies without, like, very, very explicit consent. And that's as simple as taking away an iPad or something like that.

Like, we would need a lot of consent from the parent and, like, have to show them that we exhausted all reinforcement options for many, many reasons. One of them is the bad history of ABA and some of the things that were done before. Um, but I also think, because we Know the power of reinforcement.

Yes.

That's cool. So I. I love that. Okay, so coming back to a little bit more of the school stuff. And so we want to assume that if you're.

We talked about this a little bit. Like, it's not, like, bad behavior if your child's, like, having a hard time with school transitions because there are so many parts to it.

And so we also want to not be quick to, like, make these assumptions that if they're refusing to go to school or refusing to do something, that it also means that they just won't. We have to get curious and ask, like, are they understanding all the steps? Or, like, do they know what to do?

Can they communicate if they need help or when something's wrong? Or, like, is the environment just overstimulating and too much?

So we don't want to just jump to think, like, oh, this is, like, a bad behavior that we got to fix. It's more like getting curious and thinking, like, what part is hard or why is this challenging for them?

Exactly. And, like, I think again, if you think about yourself, most people, like, don't want to do a bad job.

Yeah.

Kids don't want to be a bad kid.

Yeah.

They don't want to have big reactions to things. It doesn't feel good for me. Doesn't feel good for them.

And so if we think about ourselves, too, the times where you have a big reaction or, you know, an overreaction, it's like, I was just overwhelmed. Usually it's like, like, someone.

Something at work is going on, and I'm, like, on my phone texting, and my husband's talking to me, and then my son comes up and he needs something, and then, like, I don't know, dinner's burning. And then I'm like, ah, you know, like, all those things, and I'm overwhelmed. And then for our littles. Right.

Like kids, there's so many things that we don't even know. Right. That could be going through their brain that are overwhelming. And so I think you're right.

Like, we want to take a step back, get curious, and think, like, what part of, like, what do I really think is going on here? Why are you reacting this way? Right. To some, like, putting on your shoes?

Yeah, it seems pretty easy to me, but obviously there's something I'm missing here. And so do they understand what they should be doing? Is my tone sucking?

And they're thinking, like, they're in trouble because I'm like, get on your shoes. Go get on your shoes. You know, do they know what the expectations are? And then I think it's really tricky for parents where they don't.

Their kids aren't like initiators of communication and you can't really get that insight into their brain and what they're thinking.

Exactly.

And so we got to take a step back there and really like, look for those indicating behaviors and look for sort of what are some of the patterns that are occurring here? For sure.

And I think if you're seeing some of those repeated refusals, that's where again, a behavior analyst can really be helpful and come in and observe and help give you some like, fresh ideas to solve that problem.

Yeah, exactly.

All right. For teachers and clinicians listening, the first few weeks of school are rough. Generally it's a hard transition for many of our families.

And I think for us, we do try and check in with families during that first month and see what we can make sure things are going and at least as smooth as they think they could and if there's anything that we could help out with. And then also sort of prepping them for that idea. You know, this is a long game. September can be tricky.

Do you want to talk through some strategies that we could give to the school or like, do you want some support coming up with those strategies? So I think for clinicians, nice to check in with your families, sort of give them some realistic expectations.

Sometimes a staggered start can be helpful. Sometimes like starting even just like a little bit later than everyone else so that the transition is in as busy can be helpful.

And so anyways, I think as clinicians we can really take that step back and give some feedback about the environment and how we could improve things there. And so we want to think beyond the academics. Right. Those first few months are not about academics usually.

Right. And everything you talked about there is talking about like building trust and building that like predictability in the routine for the child.

And so like, if you're setting them up for more success, then it's likely going to go a little bit better. Better.

Exactly, exactly.

And so that like arrival routine, which we've talked about, so that drop off routine, no matter how old your child is, if that's a tricky part for you, having a consistent routine and then sometimes, like we said, getting creative with the school, what can we do here for a clean handoff? How can we make sure my child's not getting squished coming out the door? Yeah, exactly.

And like, what are some of those things that we can put in place to make that arrival routine run? Smoother. Some other things we want to do is like create those visuals, especially initially to get those routines set up.

We've talked about routines being really helpful for neurodivergent children in particular. I think all children benefit from routine.

But for neurodivergent children, especially ones with language delays, the visuals add that extra context that they benefit from. And so showing them visually where things go.

Like you could have like a backpack picture in like their cubby or whatever, you know, shoes go in this bin and that sort of thing. Right. To show them where things belong and be keeping that as consistent as possible. And then we also talked about using some transitional phrases.

Right. We talked about some that we use at home, but also talked about something using the class. Right. Like keeping that hands on top, that means stop Y.

And those sort of transitional phrases can be helpful. And then playing around with those too. Right. Does a visual with the transitional FA phrase help? Right.

And again, certainly with our children with delayed language, that could be a really nice strategy for them. And that's where like sometimes a first then board could be good. A visual schedule, you know, playing around a little bit there.

Yeah, exactly.

What else did we think of? We are thinking give like warning, like try to connect together before the transition.

And so if I'm the teacher and I know I have an autistic child in my class, I might try and do that first, then with them first and then give the instruction to the whole class.

Ah yes.

And so we've had that connection piece and a nice interaction too. Right. So that hopefully that's kind of building up their bucket so that they're able to then make that transition.

Or if you have support in your classroom, sort of using some thoughtful use of those staff members that might be in supporting like EAs or ECs, getting them to just do like a quick visual run through.

Yeah, here go we. We go.

And then giving that instruction.

I love that.

And then building in regulation can also be a really good strategy. I do notice they do this a lot in my son's class cuz he's in kindergarten. So I'm sure all the kids are like wild after certain things.

And so sometimes I think they do like those Danny go videos or like dance videos to like get their sillies out, you know. And then they also do yoga and talk about like have having a calm mind, mindfulness.

And so setting in some of these regulation supports can be helpful.

And then I think though an important distinction for neurodivergent children is that those regulation supports might be different than what their peers are doing. Right. Like, if you have adhd, probably sitting and like, just deep breathing is not going to be the right thing.

And so could the child then sit and do an ABC puzzle or like, something like that that's serving the same function. They're sitting, they're breathing, they're bringing their nervous system back down, but their hands are busy.

Right.

And that sort of thing. So it's good to check in with the parents and see what they find is actually regulating.

Yeah, true.

And you might have to customize that for your neurodivergent students.

Right.

And then the functional communication is a huge one, right?

Yes.

I think as a parent and then also as teachers and educators, like, advocacy is so important. How do we teach these kids to advocate for what they need, especially with our neurodivergent children and youth?

Because sometimes those needs are easier. Unique. Right. And not as easily thought of by the teacher. You know, I think often we think of maybe noise canceling headphones. Right.

But I don't think about. I had a learner a while ago now, but she would listen to white noise in the headphones. So the headphones alone didn't really help her regulate.

And then we tried out different songs, white noise, brown noise, whatever, and assessed which one worked best for her. And obviously in the school, you don't have time for all of that. But if you're trying something that's not working, you know, don't push.

What do they say? Push a square peg into a round hole? Yeah, I think so. Like. Yeah, like, keep rethinking and thinking. Okay, you know what?

This yoga is not working for Jimmy.

Maybe Jimmy would like one of those rocking chairs or like, get no tea to come in and like, sort of identify what's going on there and what sort of things might actually be regulatory instead of like, assuming.

Yeah, exactly. And then practicing those functional. You were talking about functional communication for phrases. Practicing them, it's, you know, before the moment.

And so like practicing those. Maybe setting up times where. If it is like with the containers with.

With lunch that maybe you're practicing at home lots of times, like, okay, what can we do if this happens? And then reminding them because in the moment, it's harder to use those strategies. So practicing it beforehand.

Yes, exactly. And then I do think sometimes, like, visuals are very helpful reminder. Like, I've got a guy right now who in school, the.

He does well in school, like, academically is doing quite well, but the classroom noise is a lot. And then he's got another Student in his class who tends to break the rules, which is very frustrating for this other guy.

Anyway, so he was finding, like, for most of the school year, he's held it together and everything's been fine. And then last couple months, things have sort of gotten trickier for him.

And so in his case, I need him to know what are the things that are making my brain on fire. Right. Is one thing I want him to know. And so we've identified, like, the noisy bus and that sort of thing.

But then the next piece is I need him to advocate for his needs in that moment. Right. Instead of throwing his chair across the classroom, I need him to get that break before he's at a point where he wants to throw the chair.

Right. And so the school actually came up with a really nice plan. He likes Garfield.

And so they put a Garfield sticker on his desk or little Garfield comic on his desk. And so as soon as he. And he's using it, it's like, when he's feeling upset or mad, he reads a comic. And that, like, brings him down.

And then it brings him down enough that then he can activate a second strategy, which is to go to a quiet reading space and read a Garfield book, and then he'll come back to the classroom. And I'm sure it's not perfect.

Yeah.

But it seemed like such a thoughtful, sort of simple strategy for this guy that really can, like, move through the day.

Font.

Right.

But was having some dysregulation issues at school that were impacting sort of the flow of the classroom. And that visual reminder.

Right.

Like, really helped him.

Cool.

Like, here's something else that you can do instead of, like, letting your brain get on fire and, like, being really.

A reminder like, oh, my thoughts are racing. I better look at Garfield. Yeah, I feel a little bit better now. I'll go read Garfield. And so it stops that rumination.

And, like, also helps him remember, like, I can advocate for myself.

Right.

And then looking at patterns, I think, is the sort of final thing that we would recommend and not assuming intent. And this is sort of a mismatch that I often find, too.

And as a behavior analyst, we're, like, very trained to look at mentalistic views and, like, where we might be inferring intent versus something that's, like, observable and measurable. And those are sort of our tenants of being a behavior analyst, of course, is not that what we're thinking doesn't matter.

It certainly does, but certainly with kids that can't share what they're thinking. I want to be really cautious about how I'm inferring about what that might be meaning for them. Right.

And so instead what I might do is, and I feel like we talk about this on every episode myself is I'm not usually intervening on something on a one time basis. Like I'm looking for those patterns and because that's what's giving me the insight about how to intervene.

Exactly. We've talked a lot, a lot of different strategies. A lot of things you can do. A reminder, go to our toolkit.

This is all sort of written down in a really clean little package. We've got a transition toolkit just for transitions in general. But then we've got this one that's specific to back to school strategies.

And so we've, because we've talked over so many different things today, I recommend taking look at that because it kind of lays everything out really nice and clean. And then again you don't have to print that and laminate it. You can come up with your own little post it note version.

But it's a nice little resource.

So if you take away a couple things from this episode, one of the things is just like Back to School is not one transition, it's this whole train of transition transitions throughout the day. And some of those are sort of hidden transitions, like what's going on in that morning routine, what's going on in the school at recess.

And there's lots of little pieces to think about.

Think about. Exactly. And so when we see the kids struggling with these transitions, we want to look at that behavior as information.

Yeah.

It tells us something about their skills or support or communication, the environment, the expectations that we can then sort of play around with to find a strategy that's going to work.

Yeah. And the goal isn't to have this like perfect, amazing, you're going to have the best day.

It's just like kind of like the goal is helping them feel safe and supported and like confident to take that next step. Next step.

Exactly. And like, I guarantee our first day will not go as planned despite sort of being able to chat about this topic for a long time.

You know, I've got a lot of different thoughts about it and I'm sure we'll still run into some hiccups along the way. But what I'm. What we're hoping to say here is that with the right, right supports we can build a bridge.

Yeah.

You know, we can bridge from what was familiar to this new thing and keep that connection piece hopefully so that everyone feels like Regulated, happy, connected. As we're heading off to the that first week of school.

Yeah, exactly. And so if back to school transitions are already feeling overwhelming, you're totally not alone.

We recommend just like starting small because we talked about all the hundred of transitions that someone's going to go through with that back to school. Pick one to start with. Like pick maybe like it's the mornings that we're working on or maybe it's the drop offs that we're working on.

And ask like what's the one thing I can do to make this like calmer and more connected. Maybe it's doing the 10 second hug like Shauna did. Maybe it's like my cute little rhymes like 824 out the door.

So fun, you know, so pick like one of those things and that take that as your first step instead of trying to solve all the hundred things at once.

Exactly.

And like we would love to hear from you if you do have any troubles or anything that comes up successes as well during these back to school coming weeks.

Let us know what's going well, what's not working for you, and definitely check out that transition toolkit that we've mentioned and share us with your friends.

Thanks so much everyone for listening and going through this ride with us.

Take care.

See you next time.

Bye.

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners the topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice. Please contact a professional if you have questions.

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

See you next time.

Bye.