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Essential OSINT for Executive Protection | Pete Jenkins
Episode 4227th October 2021 • The Circuit Magazine Podcast • BBA Corporate Ltd
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What is Open-Source Intelligence and how does it apply to modern-day Executive Protection? Is this something that everyone should know something about or is it only for a few select specialists? 

Today we're talking with Pete Jenkins of ISS training, one of the leading training providers on the subject. We're going to be looking at the applicability of OSINT in everyday EP operations, its use as an investigative tool and how we can use that knowledge to protect ourselves and our clients from unseen threats.

This is a huge area and we'll be covering a lot in this episode, including:

  • What sort of background, prerequisites, or prior learning do candidates need before they embark on an OSINT course?
  • Why does today’s EP professional need this skillset? Does everyone need it, or should it be assigned to a designated, skilled expert?
  • How can EP operators use OSINT fundamentals to mask the movements of their principal?
  • If you're looking to remain under the radar, what can people do to stop others from finding them? 

More about Pete:

Peter is a former Royal Marine Commando and Director of security consultancy ‘ISS Training Ltd’. Peter is proud to have taught surveillance & intelligence related subjects in over 18 countries worldwide to various enforcement agencies, specialist military & intelligence units and close protection teams.

He was instrumental and at the forefront in the design of the current RQF Qualifications in Surveillance Operations. He is the author of specialist training books; ‘Surveillance Theory’, ‘Surveillance Tradecraft’ & ‘Covert Imagery’.

He continues to carry out live operational surveillance work and works semi-professionally as a commercial photographer and NUJ photo-journalist.

LinkedIn

ISS Training Ltd

OSINT Resources Mentioned on the show:

192.com

Tweet map

Snap map

Rosetta

Bellingcat

Google earth

OSINT Techniques - Michael Bazzell

OSINT curious project


More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >


The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe

 

Connect with Us: 

Circuit Magazine

BBA Connect

NABA Protector

British Bodyguard Association

Transcripts

Pete Jenkins:

We can take a photograph that was taken 30 years ago, put

Pete Jenkins:

it into a search engine that we can find out where that person

Pete Jenkins:

is knowing what they look like.

Pete Jenkins:

Even though it's 30 years later,

Intro:

welcome to the Circuit.

Intro:

Magazine, the number one source information on protection matters.

Intro:

The industry leading magazine for all security professionals who

Intro:

want to stay ahead of the game.

Phelim:

Open source intelligence for the EP professional.

Phelim:

Is it something that everyone has to do or is it only for a few select specialists?

Phelim:

I'm here with John Moss and today we're going to be talking with Pete

Phelim:

Jenkins of ISS training, and we're going to be looking at its applicability,

Phelim:

not just in an academic sense.

Phelim:

In every day, operations, it's a pleasure to, you know, have Pete, because of

Phelim:

course he is a longstanding friend of the BBA, uh, and circuit community.

Phelim:

Uh, John, what do you think we can try and get out of today's?

Phelim:

Well, you

Jon:

know, this is a huge area and I think it's something that almost

Jon:

everyone needs to know something about.

Jon:

And I'm not just talking insecurity.

Jon:

I mean, everyone who uses the internet.

Jon:

Because.

Jon:

That's your information.

Jon:

That's out there and other people have access to it.

Jon:

It's open source.

Jon:

So it's out there to be accessed by anyone.

Jon:

And if you don't know what's out there then you're putting yourself at risk.

Jon:

So, yeah.

Jon:

You know, I'm really looking forward to getting Pete's perspective on this,

Jon:

and it's also great that Shaun is on the interview as well, because this

Jon:

is, uh, a bit of a rabbit hole that I know Shawn's going down at the moment.

Jon:

He's really delving

Phelim:

into that.

Phelim:

Yeah, he is.

Phelim:

And he's also a student of Pete's.

Phelim:

So this is going to be nice.

Phelim:

We can have the student and the, uh, the teacher, uh, all on the same podcast.

Phelim:

But let's take a step back.

Phelim:

Uh, a lot of people with a military background might know a spectrum of

Phelim:

intelligence that one can sort of draw from HUMINT, uh, SIG INT, uh, geo int.

Phelim:

But, but, but where does this OSINT sort of fit in or does

Phelim:

it overlay all over the top?

Phelim:

Uh, because I suppose any of those ins could be available open sourced.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

You've just answered your question as far as I would answer it anyway.

Jon:

That's how I see.

Jon:

It's, um, it's kind of a convergence of all of those things, because

Jon:

all of those factors still come into play for the most part.

Jon:

It's about how you access the information more so

Jon:

than anything else.

Phelim:

And do you think that this is something that will be of concern?

Phelim:

Of course, not just to individuals about their own data,

Phelim:

but in a day-to-day EP role.

Phelim:

How often will an AP operator be tasked with finding out some old scent, or

Phelim:

is it going to be more of a specialist role for some specially tasked operator?

Jon:

Well,

Jon:

I think most high net worths now and prominent people at anyone who.

Jon:

Is vulnerable.

Jon:

I mean, we're all vulnerable to some degree, but people with means and

Jon:

people, you know, with something to protect should be investing in this.

Jon:

And for the most part, a lot of people are, there are high level

Jon:

talented experts, you know, who are being employed in these roles.

Jon:

However, the things that they go out looking for and the

Jon:

threats that they're trying to.

Jon:

I'll often at a very different level to what the EP operator can look for.

Jon:

And there's that that's not just to do with skill ability and now focus.

Jon:

It's also knowledge.

Jon:

Nobody knows the principle quite the same way as what protection

Jon:

does protection and maybe, you know, the Butler, uh, and so on.

Jon:

But you, you have to remember.

Jon:

The protection is with the principal everywhere they go.

Jon:

So they see things, they hear things more importantly, they get a feel for things

Jon:

and they don't just see the principal.

Jon:

They see all the family members and they might see them in a way

Jon:

in which the principal doesn't.

Jon:

And so you have this very unique perspective where you have all these

Jon:

different pictures, these different, um, The these different viewpoints of the

Jon:

principal's life, the family life, and that can enable you to be able to look

Jon:

for threats that almost everyone else in that inner circle wouldn't know even what

Jon:

to look for, how to look for, or if they saw something they wouldn't necessarily

Jon:

know that it was of importance.

Jon:

Does that

Jon:

make

Phelim:

sense?

Phelim:

It does.

Phelim:

I think you framed it excellently and actually that's quite a

Phelim:

motivational factor as to why someone BP should go on a nursing course.

Phelim:

Um, I, I, I really liked that, so perfect.

Phelim:

Why don't we hear from Pete himself and, uh, along with Shaun

Phelim:

west, let's explore this very, very timely topic of open source

Phelim:

intelligence.

Intro:

and now let's meet one of the contributors to the circuit magazine.

Phelim:

Open source intelligence and the EAP protection specialist of tomorrow.

Phelim:

We are very, very pleased to be welcoming.

Phelim:

Pete Jenkins of ISS training to the podcast, myself and Shaun West eight.

Phelim:

Students of OSINT in fact, are going to be looking at this topic

Phelim:

and interviewing Pete, just to see how we can improve the industry.

Phelim:

It's a pleasure to have you on

Pete Jenkins:

Pete.

Pete Jenkins:

How are you doing?

Pete Jenkins:

That's great.

Pete Jenkins:

Thank you very much for having me.

Pete Jenkins:

I'm fine with that.

Phelim:

Love it.

Phelim:

Love it.

Phelim:

Well, let's, let's get into it.

Phelim:

OSINT what's wrong with the current state of affairs in the industry.

Pete Jenkins:

I'm not sure if there's anything wrong with it, but, um, it's

Pete Jenkins:

something that's growing literally on a daily basis and because the subject is

Pete Jenkins:

so dynamic, it's it changes every day.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, that's the hard part because you've got to keep.

Pete Jenkins:

I've got to go on trading courses for specific, um, topics involving opensource.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, otherwise I'll get left behind.

Pete Jenkins:

Good example is, um, a website that I use very regular for,

Pete Jenkins:

um, photography and research.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, a geolocation has just changed, like they're charging people

Pete Jenkins:

for it when it used to be free.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, so that's what we're up against is finding other sites

Pete Jenkins:

that can do the same thing, um, and make life easy for ourselves.

Phelim:

Uh, I see.

Phelim:

Yes.

Phelim:

Always, always evolving.

Phelim:

That's that's very important.

Phelim:

Um, but what about yourself?

Phelim:

Um, why, where did, where did, what is your passion for this topic?

Phelim:

Come from?

Pete Jenkins:

I think from.

Pete Jenkins:

For the surveillance work that we're doing and the investigative work that

Pete Jenkins:

we're doing so many people these days put things up on the internet, whether it's

Pete Jenkins:

social media, uh, business forums, dating sites, um, if we're carrying out some

Pete Jenkins:

background checks prior to a surveillance, it's our first port of call to go onto the

Pete Jenkins:

internet and find out as much as we can about that subject to their intentions.

Pete Jenkins:

Or even if it's just a photograph to identify them.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and we can also use this life in conjunction with actual live

Pete Jenkins:

surveillances that are, yeah, that

Phelim:

sounds, that sounds current and exciting if you're, if you're

Phelim:

in the field, especially, um, what, what, what about the people out there

Phelim:

that know nothing about this topic?

Phelim:

Be completely uninitiated.

Phelim:

What, what, what should they know?

Pete Jenkins:

A lot of people will Google something.

Pete Jenkins:

They'll look at a person, but then now I was just put in the first lane

Pete Jenkins:

and the second name, but there are search and certain search operators

Pete Jenkins:

that we use, simple things like speech marks that collect phrases

Pete Jenkins:

together and put in a third search term or using a certain search engine

Pete Jenkins:

to find out particular information.

Pete Jenkins:

And I think this is what people lack.

Pete Jenkins:

They just go straight to Google.

Pete Jenkins:

Bang something and hoping they're gonna come out with the results and they'll get

Pete Jenkins:

43 million hits when we don't want that.

Pete Jenkins:

We want five or six hits on that subject.

Pete Jenkins:

So it's knowing how to minimize those hits and be a bit more

Pete Jenkins:

accurate with our, with our research.

Pete Jenkins:

I think that's one of the main things, um, and then show.

Pete Jenkins:

Of demonstrators be do on the open-source course, how easy it is to

Pete Jenkins:

get some information, or you can take a photograph that was taken 30 years

Pete Jenkins:

ago, put it into a search engine.

Pete Jenkins:

Then we can find out where that person is now and what they look like.

Pete Jenkins:

Even though it's 30 years

Phelim:

later.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

Powerful tools, photos.

Phelim:

Um, well, uh, with us, of course we have Shaun west, uh, a student of yours and a

Phelim:

student of, uh . Um, Shaun I think we're going to angle this interview slightly

Phelim:

different in the, you can be the, uh, champion for the audience, I suppose,

Phelim:

because you've been on the course.

Phelim:

So maybe if I ask you, you know, why did you feel you

Phelim:

needed to go in such a course?

Phelim:

And, and, and what, what, what were your general, uh,

Shaun:

Uh, the reason I wouldn't go in the course, I just thought was a great tool.

Shaun:

And I looked at develop myself in the industry.

Shaun:

Um, I work, you know, from being a close protection operator.

Shaun:

When do we do the sort of management levels when my own company and, you

Shaun:

know, have a number of high net worth clients, aren't, it's a great tool

Shaun:

you can bring to the, you know, add to your toolkit, be able to search things

Shaun:

professionally, find out, dig deep.

Shaun:

And karaoke better due-diligence then like, like pizza, just to deal with other

Shaun:

people who maybe just do a Google search.

Shaun:

Well, I learned a great deal on the course, and it actually blew me away

Shaun:

with some of the techniques and how easy it was to find information on people.

Shaun:

You know, why people do it.

Shaun:

You can find things on the internet and you should watch

Shaun:

your privacy settings, but.

Shaun:

Easy.

Shaun:

It actually is, is actually pretty scary.

Phelim:

Interesting.

Phelim:

Well, we'll then obviously there's, there's a wealth of data out there, but,

Phelim:

um, but Pete, you know, for people who are embarking on their first course, you

Phelim:

know, like, uh, Sean, wasn't, it's in this topic, what sort of a prerequisite to, to

Phelim:

sort of recommend is there, is there any, um, other course they need to have done?

Phelim:

Is there any background they need to

Pete Jenkins:

have?

Pete Jenkins:

No, particularly I think because I'm a bit computer stuff.

Pete Jenkins:

I mean the two day course that we host all you need is a decent computer.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, we provide all the exercises, visual ones, the, um, the practical exercises

Pete Jenkins:

that the guys carry out on the course when it gets to being geeky, then you

Pete Jenkins:

need to know a little bit more about things like lineups and machine code

Pete Jenkins:

and, um, And it does get complicated, but in two days we can only teach so much.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and even since Sean did his course, we have really sexed up the course and we've

Pete Jenkins:

changed it quite a lot because of other searches of the systems that are in place.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and it's not just about searching for people either.

Pete Jenkins:

It's, um, we may have a photograph of a person that stood up.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and we want to establish where in the world are they what's, what

Pete Jenkins:

was the date and what was the time when the image was taken and there's

Pete Jenkins:

no data embedded within that image.

Pete Jenkins:

So by using various search engines, we can find out where the location is.

Pete Jenkins:

And then by other systems find out the date and the time of exactly where it was.

Pete Jenkins:

And we've had to do this for insurance purposes or insurance

Pete Jenkins:

fraud purposes, I should say.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, I think rest of it and I forgot what your question was.

Phelim:

No, no, no, that's fine.

Phelim:

That's that paints a great picture.

Phelim:

I was, I guess I was wondering, you know, someone says, well, it sounds

Phelim:

a little bit too complicated for me.

Phelim:

Um, I, I need a forensic background.

Phelim:

I need an it background.

Phelim:

What would you

Pete Jenkins:

say to that?

Pete Jenkins:

No, not at all.

Pete Jenkins:

Especially for a two day course.

Pete Jenkins:

Uh, It sounds doesn't sound much being two days, but we do

Pete Jenkins:

cover a hell of a lot of ground.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and it's very practical.

Pete Jenkins:

We, um, send all the learners, um, photographs, images, exercises.

Pete Jenkins:

So when we do a session on say using a search engine properly,

Pete Jenkins:

they get given a live exercise and it gets to be a bit of a teamwork.

Pete Jenkins:

Effort on behalf of the learners or a competition to see, you

Pete Jenkins:

can find the results fast.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, it may be a picture of, um, a guy sat in a graveyard and from the

Pete Jenkins:

image we need to know, where is that person to an accuracy of three meters

Pete Jenkins:

using a system called what, three words, which is quite new to people.

Pete Jenkins:

We also need to know what time of year it is by looking at what Sydney image.

Pete Jenkins:

And then if they think they identify where it is.

Pete Jenkins:

They've got to corroborate that they can't just guess they've got to corroborate

Pete Jenkins:

and prove that that is the exact spot.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and there's lots of exercises like that, but we teach a bit, we give an

Pete Jenkins:

exercise that we teach a bit more than we give another exercise and it's quite

Pete Jenkins:

progressive throughout the two days.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, so you don't really need to be a cake or it literate to, um, to do the course.

Shaun:

You just do need to actually be a bit computer savvy.

Shaun:

As long as you can work a computer or a search engine.

Shaun:

And you've got an inquisitive mind, I think, um, you know, you don't stop as

Shaun:

soon as one door closes, you look at it and you think I'll check the box.

Shaun:

What else could I use?

Shaun:

What other tools do I help to find that information, the information you require?

Shaun:

Um, but yeah, I think you're right.

Shaun:

You don't need a forensic background or anything like that.

Shaun:

So it's probably suggested it is just inquisitive mind.

Shaun:

You're able to use a computer and you have an internet connection.

Shaun:

And to me is

Pete Jenkins:

what you can find.

Pete Jenkins:

Yeah.

Pete Jenkins:

The other thing to add to that, and Sean's correct.

Pete Jenkins:

You won't find everything on the internet about a place or about a person.

Pete Jenkins:

So it's getting that background and then actually putting your boots on the ground

Pete Jenkins:

and possibly corroborating that with it.

Pete Jenkins:

A lot of people think open source is great.

Pete Jenkins:

It will tell you everything.

Pete Jenkins:

You need to know it doesn't, you've got.

Pete Jenkins:

Well, the other half out yourself, um, by the maze.

Pete Jenkins:

So Pete, that presents an

Phelim:

interesting question.

Phelim:

Um, when, especially the uninitiated I thinking about, you know, they're saying,

Phelim:

well, what, what, what can open source do?

Phelim:

But more to the point, what is open source?

Phelim:

And where's the line blurred between open source and well, close to us.

Phelim:

Where's that line?

Pete Jenkins:

Well, I suppose it's only it's freely obtained on the internet.

Pete Jenkins:

But then again, you're going to hit paywalls.

Pete Jenkins:

For example, if you do use a particular search engine, um, I'll use one

Pete Jenkins:

line to.com as an example, because most people are familiar with that.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, it's a combination of the electors register, the phone

Pete Jenkins:

book and company's house.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, you can do so many searches free or I'll get you so far for

Pete Jenkins:

nothing, then you have to pay.

Pete Jenkins:

So you hit a paywall.

Pete Jenkins:

If you've got a big budget, you can pay to for subscriptions to many, many of

Pete Jenkins:

these sites and databases where your, where it's easier to get information.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, so that's, that's it generally you need to pay for it or it's free.

Phelim:

So, so, uh, is it possible to be searching for open source

Phelim:

intelligence and suddenly stumble across non open source sources?

Phelim:

Um, which, which are perhaps not allowed, is that a likely scenario?

Pete Jenkins:

Well, if you find that.

Pete Jenkins:

I would say by virtue of that fact it's open, but, um, on a recent exercise,

Pete Jenkins:

we did, we had, so identifying the, um, the captain of a certain vessel,

Pete Jenkins:

we found a spreadsheet in Denmark.

Pete Jenkins:

So listed all this personal private information about a lot of boats owners

Pete Jenkins:

that own vessels in the UK, um, which was totally unexpected and actually probably

Pete Jenkins:

a breach of the data protection act.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, because this, this document that you could learn, um, download

Pete Jenkins:

a spreadsheet, contained a lot of personal private information from

Pete Jenkins:

people's names that addresses telephone numbers and their email addresses,

Pete Jenkins:

um, which was quite a surprise, but it was there, it was on the internet, but

Pete Jenkins:

it was puts out by another country.

Pete Jenkins:

so yeah, you can find things, that you probably shouldn't be able to.

Pete Jenkins:

Okay.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

Well, that's, that's, that's that's useful.

Phelim:

Cause I think may, may, maybe people will be fearful.

Phelim:

Oh no, I stumbled across this and now I'm going to get a visit from,

Phelim:

uh, some, uh, agency or whatever.

Phelim:

Um, why don't you think that today's EP professional.

Phelim:

Needs this surely it's going to be one person in the team.

Phelim:

Uh, is, is it that everyone will be faced with needing to conduct

Phelim:

some ocean research at some stage, but w Y E P and Y O said

Pete Jenkins:

various reasons.

Pete Jenkins:

So if you've got pressure groups or, um, activists sites, you can

Pete Jenkins:

monitor those for anything that might go against your principal.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, if you're looking at life, some areas, um, some towns, some cities you

Pete Jenkins:

can actually go on their website and you can dial into their CCTV so you can see

Pete Jenkins:

what the street, um, cameras are looking at and actually get an updated view.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, there's.

Pete Jenkins:

Tweet maps where you can, let's say you've got an incident

Pete Jenkins:

in, let's say a Regent's park.

Pete Jenkins:

You could then go on to tweet, map or snap map and various other

Pete Jenkins:

sites and actually look to see who's, who's tweeting and who's

Pete Jenkins:

Snap-chatting from that exact, um, site.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and it may give you a heads up or some of any incidents or

Pete Jenkins:

anything that's taking place there.

Pete Jenkins:

It might be a March.

Pete Jenkins:

It could be, um, a conference.

Pete Jenkins:

What have you, so it can give you things like.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, another good example is we conducted a surveillance on

Pete Jenkins:

two characters in the summer.

Pete Jenkins:

They came from abroad on a ferry and by monitoring their social media, we knew

Pete Jenkins:

exactly where they were on their journey throughout that drive on the ferry.

Pete Jenkins:

When they got off the ferry, we also knew what vehicle they were driving.

Pete Jenkins:

And when they attended this, um, this events, we knew exactly

Pete Jenkins:

what we were looking for.

Pete Jenkins:

We knew exactly what they looked like and what they were dressed in.

Pete Jenkins:

We knew the vehicle and when they talked to various people at risk events, we

Pete Jenkins:

were able to photograph those people that they're connected to and then turned it

Pete Jenkins:

back on its head and search social media.

Pete Jenkins:

And we actually found out the identities of all the people

Pete Jenkins:

that were connected with.

Pete Jenkins:

At this particular event.

Pete Jenkins:

So in conjunction with, um, conventional surveillance, we're also using open

Pete Jenkins:

source at the same time to back up the team really, and gather more intelligence

Shaun:

alongside that as well.

Shaun:

If you're a CPO working one up, you can also use open source.

Shaun:

If you haven't got time to go and do a Remy, there's lots of information

Shaun:

out there before you could a view.

Shaun:

If you're going to a different city, you want a football stadium,

Shaun:

you can do complete walk-throughs at some of these places now.

Shaun:

So there's, there's lots of information to be had there.

Shaun:

If you haven't got the time, like you said, or the manpower.

Shaun:

You get out and do these recce's.

Shaun:

There is, there is a lot you can draw from, from online and different

Shaun:

tools that are available to

Phelim:

you.

Phelim:

And possibly I could see that being very important when no one could

Phelim:

travel anywhere, because I saw a lot of IPI, uh, companies offering

Phelim:

intelligence as a service in a way they hadn't been before, because they

Phelim:

wanted to of course, maintain business operations, um, was OSINT especially.

Phelim:

Useful during the pandemic, especially because there was a lot of hype, a lot

Phelim:

of hysteria, um, still is, you know, um, and, and, and does send help in, in, in

Phelim:

that regard where you can't have people.

Phelim:

Um, on the ground all the time

Pete Jenkins:

during the pandemic, Pete, it was it's funny because

Pete Jenkins:

during the pandemic, obviously, because the surveillance operators

Pete Jenkins:

or investigators couldn't go out on the ground, but equally, so

Pete Jenkins:

our, what would be our potential targets weren't going out either.

Pete Jenkins:

So, so in some respects that sort of, um, Dive a little bit.

Pete Jenkins:

And we had a big, low from both sides.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, although some of the investigations still took place.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, there were travel restrictions, but we're able to get around that.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, but open source.

Pete Jenkins:

We're still able to build up pictures because investigations basically were

Pete Jenkins:

put on hold during the pandemic, which is why there's a big demand in surveillance

Pete Jenkins:

at the moment, because all the work, especially within the insurance fraud

Pete Jenkins:

industry, it's now stacked up and they are well behind them in their investigations.

Pete Jenkins:

But when those jobs will be insurance company are coming in and stacking up,

Pete Jenkins:

it gives the chance for the researcher to do their background checks on those.

Pete Jenkins:

So they're ready to go out to the surveillance teams and then do the work.

Pete Jenkins:

So, um, yeah, that, that would, if it was to be an advantage of it,

Pete Jenkins:

the pandemic probably that was it.

Pete Jenkins:

It just gave guys chance to do all the background, but still we've

Pete Jenkins:

got a backlog of, um, surveillance is actually out on the ground.

Pete Jenkins:

And then

Phelim:

what.

Phelim:

Uh, skills to think that somebody will learn on a OSINT course, because I can

Phelim:

imagine, I don't know doing, doing, for example, January 6th, there were loads

Phelim:

of Twitter, vigilantes identifying all sorts of things around the Capitol, and

Phelim:

it seemed quite exciting, but it seemed quite, I don't know, amateurish in a

Phelim:

way, although they did seem to draw up a lot of good stuff, uh, from just photos.

Phelim:

So, so what are the skills that people.

Phelim:

Sort of learn in an oath in course,

Pete Jenkins:

as well as the research-y.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, it does take practice because we cover a lot of ground, um, on the course,

Pete Jenkins:

but you've got to go away and digest it and then put it into practicalities.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, Sean hit the nail on the head earlier on by saying.

Pete Jenkins:

You've got to think outside the box.

Pete Jenkins:

So if you've got a demonstration and you've got some guy in a t-shirt

Pete Jenkins:

with a logo on it, and with frizzy hair, we can take a snapshot of that.

Pete Jenkins:

Hopefully we'll put it into a search engine and it might reveal their

Pete Jenkins:

identity or it'll show where they've been at another events or demonstration.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, another piece of software might pick up on the wording on his t-shirt and

Pete Jenkins:

that will give us another clue to a.

Pete Jenkins:

Uh, their identity or whether actually photographed on the internet as well

Pete Jenkins:

as the system out there called Rosetta, I think Facebook started it off where,

Pete Jenkins:

um, you can hold a blackout or you can have wording on the t-shirt and what

Pete Jenkins:

the search engine does now actually reads what's on the placard and does

Pete Jenkins:

a search for that term or that phrase rather than a picture of the black card.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, so that's helped in some ID.

Pete Jenkins:

I know.

Pete Jenkins:

The open source experts, Bellingcat.

Pete Jenkins:

They you've cracked a lot of jobs, a lot of research stories, um, by tying

Pete Jenkins:

various people, various demonstrations by the clothing that they wear and

Pete Jenkins:

identifying them at one on one website to another, to another to another.

Pete Jenkins:

But I think thinking outside the box, where can I go with this?

Pete Jenkins:

I've got this image.

Pete Jenkins:

What should I do with it?

Pete Jenkins:

Should I put into another search engine?

Pete Jenkins:

Shall I, shall I identify it?

Pete Jenkins:

Something simple, like a logo on a shirt or something in the

Pete Jenkins:

background, it may be a sign.

Pete Jenkins:

It may be a piece of furniture that actually identifies where that

Pete Jenkins:

person was when they've taken it.

Pete Jenkins:

And that's using your common sense as well as with your intelligence and no.

Pete Jenkins:

What you know of how to search for this.

Pete Jenkins:

So there's a combination of all things really.

Pete Jenkins:

So Pete,

Phelim:

I can imagine an EP operation wanting to do it, everything

Phelim:

you've just mentioned in reverse and find out how to obscure.

Phelim:

Access to their principal.

Phelim:

And I think people quickly realized how to block the call sign of

Phelim:

an incoming, uh, private jet.

Phelim:

Um, that, that, that, that was, um, that surprised many when

Phelim:

everyone could just find it easy.

Phelim:

Um, but, but what would you have to do to try and hide the movements of your

Phelim:

principal from, you know, potentially

Pete Jenkins:

dangerous eyes first?

Pete Jenkins:

Quite a big question.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, I think first of all, it's going to be from a security of the.

Pete Jenkins:

The security team and anybody else connected with the principal, even from

Pete Jenkins:

the photograph that the principals cleaner puts up on Twitter or Facebook of that

Pete Jenkins:

principal leaving the house to, um, yeah.

Pete Jenkins:

That the whole security issue.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, I don't think the weak link is the security when the principal is

Pete Jenkins:

anybody that's surrounding them.

Shaun:

I think it's not an education.

Shaun:

What I deal with is high net worth families.

Shaun:

And they have the younger siblings or teenage, family who are on all

Shaun:

of the different social networks.

Shaun:

And, you know, some of them don't understand.

Shaun:

They just, you know, they post everything wherever they go, whatever they do,

Shaun:

whatever they buy, eat everything.

Shaun:

And every time they post it love their location, who they're

Shaun:

meeting with what they're doing.

Shaun:

Until someone points out to them what they're doing and that there may be a

Shaun:

target because of who their, you know, their uncle or their father, mother is.

Shaun:

They don't really see they're doing anything wrong.

Shaun:

And it's just goes straight back.

Shaun:

The simplistic things such as you, I guess, use any of the passwords as well.

Shaun:

You know, you'll love these people.

Shaun:

I'll use same username, password on so many different sites.

Shaun:

And just from, from doing your course, Peter, that was my first sort of

Shaun:

step into Open source intelligence, professionally doing a course.

Shaun:

And it, it opens the, you go down the rabbit hole and you become quite

Shaun:

addicted to learning more learning new tools and you find tools.

Shaun:

And just put my email address into a couple of the tools when

Shaun:

it comes up, you know, with the leak sites, your own passwords.

Shaun:

And so I've sat with.

Shaun:

And he's put his email address and he couldn't believe what I found out.

Shaun:

He was like this, we instantly changed all of his passwords on everything.

Shaun:

And like, it's just a bit of education to these people to

Shaun:

help from doing a small course.

Shaun:

What I doing an intro and then moving on.

Shaun:

So I'm by no means somebody who's done years of training.

Shaun:

What, what I can find out.

Shaun:

You had initiated with a little bit of trading can find out if someone's

Shaun:

targeting you, it's pretty scary.

Shaun:

What, so what we do for today of course, to professional.

Shaun:

And I think that makes you look bad and think Jesus.

Shaun:

Yes, I do look at my security and stop posting my things all over the place.

Shaun:

I don't use the same username passwords, wherever it is.

Shaun:

You can be a bit more thought to what you're putting out there.

Shaun:

Your footprint, I guess.

Shaun:

Hmm.

Pete Jenkins:

Yeah, I agree.

Pete Jenkins:

I mean, early, earlier this year, we had to trace an individual only near

Pete Jenkins:

his Facebook details has instant.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and Snapchat and it was quite good really for us because he likes to take

Pete Jenkins:

selfies and we demonstrate this on the course that this, this character,

Pete Jenkins:

we have to find out where he was.

Pete Jenkins:

And we established, he was in London and by taking the selfies, we took five or six

Pete Jenkins:

different selfies and family photos with.

Pete Jenkins:

Establish what parts of London it was.

Pete Jenkins:

And then literally I spent five hours on Google earth, walking the streets,

Pete Jenkins:

digitally, walking the streets of this, um, this postcode area looking for

Pete Jenkins:

these five or six different properties were, which were in the background.

Pete Jenkins:

And they established the four of them were all on the same.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and that gave us a great heads-up because over a four year period he'd

Pete Jenkins:

been photographed on that same street.

Pete Jenkins:

So then we could go back to the client and said, this is where he is.

Pete Jenkins:

This is what we're up to.

Pete Jenkins:

Now we know exactly that he's in London.

Pete Jenkins:

We know he's on this street.

Pete Jenkins:

Do you want to go further and actually locate exactly where he is?

Pete Jenkins:

So, um, yeah, just purely by people putting pictures up, but

Pete Jenkins:

they think it's quite innocent.

Pete Jenkins:

They're actually telling us quite a lot of, um, giving us a lot of intelligence.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, although it's a selfie it's, what's in the back.

Pete Jenkins:

Yes, this was in the foreground and everything else.

Phelim:

That that makes me think because on my own Instagram account, I try and

Phelim:

post pictures of interesting things and I try not to duplicate them and I

Phelim:

try not to, uh, you know, put myself in them and that that's the common,

Phelim:

uh, travel risk management policy.

Phelim:

If you're, if you're going to Mexico, never, ever put a geotag

Phelim:

because people are waiting.

Phelim:

You know, find you.

Phelim:

Um, and, and, and, and, and here, if you, if you're looking to remain under the

Phelim:

radar or just, uh, you know, protected, what else can people do to protect

Phelim:

themselves, um, apart from not posting that that's obviously going to be good.

Phelim:

Um, uh, can, can they post pictures of nice looking flowers and bits and bobs?

Phelim:

I mean, well, what, what, what, what should

Pete Jenkins:

they be doing?

Pete Jenkins:

Not using the internet full stop, but, um, but it's like you say,

Pete Jenkins:

somebody has a picture of a.

Pete Jenkins:

Uh, nice flower.

Pete Jenkins:

I don't know.

Pete Jenkins:

They're in Mexico, they've taken a picture of a flower.

Pete Jenkins:

They put it on Instagram and then somebody goes, where are you?

Pete Jenkins:

So then they go, well, we're in, um, whatever town in New Mexico.

Pete Jenkins:

So then people come, I stayed there, but I stayed in this hotel

Pete Jenkins:

when they start, well, now I'm in this hotel and it goes on.

Pete Jenkins:

So you can put one picture up, somebody asks a question

Pete Jenkins:

that's on your friends list.

Pete Jenkins:

And all of a sudden you've got the whole history.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, so keep it in the.

Pete Jenkins:

Yeah, yeah.

Pete Jenkins:

Keep, keep it all private.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, I mean, it's a simple hack to find out when somebody's birthday is with Facebook,

Pete Jenkins:

you go onto their profile, you search within that profile for the word birthday.

Pete Jenkins:

And then all of a sudden you've got all these people going happy

Pete Jenkins:

birthday, happy birthday beat.

Pete Jenkins:

And it's like, the whole world knows my birth date now.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, not that I use it as a password or anything, but, um,

Pete Jenkins:

but it's just one little pivot point to take us somewhere else.

Pete Jenkins:

If we do not see.

Pete Jenkins:

yeah, don't post anything at all.

Pete Jenkins:

That's personal or, I mean, I've got this philosophy.

Pete Jenkins:

I only put on the internet, what I want other people to see, keep it as simple

Pete Jenkins:

as that, whether it's on Facebook or LinkedIn, uh, And it's like Facebook.

Pete Jenkins:

I only accept friends of people I've actually met and shook hands with.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, very rarely will I take a fund request of somebody?

Pete Jenkins:

I don't know.

Pete Jenkins:

LinkedIn is a bit of a different matter, but, um, social media, um, and that's

Pete Jenkins:

where you put your personal private stuff and you want your friends.

Phelim:

it always surprises me on LinkedIn.

Phelim:

Uh, some very attractive person could be any agenda, but anyway, person, um,

Phelim:

maybe from Eastern Europe, um, suddenly making loads new security friends.

Phelim:

Really like how come 300 of my fellow contacts have accepted, um, this,

Phelim:

this is clearly not, uh, not right.

Phelim:

Um, uh, but what do you think then, Shawn, is this something that EP

Phelim:

should actually be worried about?

Phelim:

Or is it a certain portion of the EP team that's going to be having to

Phelim:

protect their principal in this way?

Shaun:

I think everyone should carry out the training.

Shaun:

It just adds another dimension to what you can offer to your principal.

Shaun:

So I definitely think everyone should do it.

Shaun:

If you're working in the industry, increasing your investigative

Shaun:

skills is it's just a good tool.

Shaun:

It's a good training to do.

Shaun:

But also when you are asking the question, what can people

Shaun:

do to stop people, finding them?

Shaun:

There is organizations out there that do sort of professional online

Shaun:

vulnerability assessments, and they can do digital erasure roles, you

Shaun:

know, things that you've put up in the.

Shaun:

And they were almost a digital Overwatch of things that come up about

Shaun:

yourself and it can remove all of that.

Shaun:

And I imagine it'd be quite a full-time if you're trying to find something on

Shaun:

somebody, you're always going to find it.

Shaun:

If you're looking deep enough.

Shaun:

It's like security, you know, you put, you put your cameras up, you put your,

Shaun:

whatever you put up as a deterrent.

Shaun:

So if you do, if you are a high net worth individual, you can't go

Shaun:

to these companies and get them to a raise the information that you

Shaun:

don't want it to be easily found.

Shaun:

And it just makes it a little bit more difficult for

Shaun:

someone who's looking for you.

Shaun:

Of course, they're not going to erase everything.

Shaun:

It may be enough of a deterrent for someone to close the door

Shaun:

and move on to the next easier.

Pete Jenkins:

I think if I, if I can answer that the, um, I

Pete Jenkins:

think for CPOs and, and what.

Pete Jenkins:

They should be Googling themselves.

Pete Jenkins:

I should say, doing research on them selves.

Pete Jenkins:

And unlike Sean said, finding out where they'd been mentioned on the internet,

Pete Jenkins:

whether it's, um, a social media handle or they've been named or their photograph,

Pete Jenkins:

um, because the main reason is recruits.

Pete Jenkins:

Also carry out open source research.

Pete Jenkins:

So if I, if, if I'm recruiting for a surveillance operator or an instructor or

Pete Jenkins:

an investigator, um, and I get 20, 30 CVS, what's the first thing I'm going to do.

Pete Jenkins:

I'm going to put their name into a search engine, the date of birth,

Pete Jenkins:

or the company that they worked for.

Pete Jenkins:

And I'm doing a quick sift first.

Pete Jenkins:

And if I see somebody dancing naked on a table in the pub, um,

Pete Jenkins:

then they're not going to be the person because I mean, in the CPS.

Pete Jenkins:

But if your principal does that search is one of the, um, the

Pete Jenkins:

security team, it just backfires.

Pete Jenkins:

So yeah, you need to clean up the, your presence on the internet for the

Pete Jenkins:

benefit of recruiters that don't, that won't dismiss you or for the benefit

Pete Jenkins:

of your, um, uh, your principal that might decide to do a quick search.

Pete Jenkins:

Cause they bought yeah,

Shaun:

exactly.

Shaun:

That.

Shaun:

I mean that, that's, that's a great point as well, because I recruit a lot of CPOs.

Shaun:

It's one thing I never thought about that, but yes, I do that.

Shaun:

I always Google who I'm employing have a quick look on social media, just to sit.

Shaun:

You can see how they're communicating with their friends.

Shaun:

You can kind of get a background of, you know, their personality as such.

Shaun:

And yeah, it is a massive tool that recruiters do use.

Shaun:

And there's be many times where just through carrying out that quick two

Shaun:

minutes on Facebook or something like that, it has cost people a job, whereas.

Shaun:

I thought they're not right for this position and I've just moved

Shaun:

on, but where, if I'd went off the CV, you know, it might have been

Shaun:

fine, but yeah, you do definitely.

Shaun:

And it's a great point that Peter, if you are working in the industry, you

Shaun:

have to sell yourself as a professional.

Shaun:

So what is that?

Shaun:

Whatever is on your social pages and also needs to speak like you're a

Shaun:

professional and I have actually seen people, um, Lose jobs as well from

Shaun:

things that they've posted you on.

Shaun:

Principal's Yeltsin posting your pictures of the.

Shaun:

Doing whatever they're doing.

Shaun:

And people have actually lost positions because of this.

Shaun:

So yeah, for sure.

Shaun:

You need to keep an eye on what you're putting out

Phelim:

there.

Phelim:

Pete.

Phelim:

Obviously people can go on a course, like, like your course.

Phelim:

Um, but the, there seems to be a lot of books, um, out there.

Phelim:

Um, Are these books, easy reading.

Phelim:

Do they require to be accompanying a course?

Phelim:

Um, what was the books?

Phelim:

Could people go to, to sort of look

Pete Jenkins:

at it's a book, one of the, probably the Bible for open-source

Pete Jenkins:

research, um, looking through.

Pete Jenkins:

Author is it Michael?

Pete Jenkins:

It is it's Michael Brazil's eighth edition.

Pete Jenkins:

It's like six inches thick, but, um, I I've got a copy and I've speed.

Pete Jenkins:

Read it.

Pete Jenkins:

And I've got hundreds of dog ear tamps, um, throughout the book.

Pete Jenkins:

It's a great tool.

Pete Jenkins:

It's a great reference point, um, to use, if you're going to do this sort of

Pete Jenkins:

work, the only problem, like we're on our eighth edition, uh, And if it's six

Pete Jenkins:

months, 12 months, he's probably gonna update it to a ninth one, but, but the

Pete Jenkins:

recent copy, it's not that expensive.

Pete Jenkins:

It's I think it's worth every penny is a great tool.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, because you do forget things.

Pete Jenkins:

There are thousands of websites out there.

Pete Jenkins:

You can't cover them all.

Pete Jenkins:

Uh, Michael's book does cover quite a lot of research and tips of, um,

Pete Jenkins:

how to do things and because it's so dynamic, he's, he's progressive.

Pete Jenkins:

He rewrites the book when he feels the need to.

Pete Jenkins:

Yeah.

Pete Jenkins:

And it said normally it's updated.

Pete Jenkins:

It's pretty good.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, the other place to go is, um, belling cat's website and or YouTube.

Pete Jenkins:

I mean, YouTube is fantastic.

Pete Jenkins:

You've just got to put in open source research, Twitter or Snapchat, and

Pete Jenkins:

you'll get guys up there for some reason.

Pete Jenkins:

They're always from Holland or a lot of them are from Poland.

Pete Jenkins:

And I feel that that should probably be international leaders

Pete Jenkins:

in doing this type of work.

Pete Jenkins:

I don't know why, but they, um, they seem to be very good at.

Pete Jenkins:

So, um, yeah, reading books go.

Pete Jenkins:

I mean, I'm not a big fan.

Pete Jenkins:

I mean, I've written a few books, but I'm not a big fan of books because I'd

Pete Jenkins:

rather have somebody in front of me, coaching me, tutoring me, um, picking

Pete Jenkins:

up on my mistakes to, to get it right.

Pete Jenkins:

Uh, But yeah, there are some good resources out there.

Pete Jenkins:

Few books, um, and the internet.

Pete Jenkins:

Yeah.

Pete Jenkins:

I,

Phelim:

I I'm with you with the Dutch.

Phelim:

Um, I think there's a lot of Dutch, that's part of the OSINT curious project

Phelim:

and there's, uh, there's, there's a lot of interesting Dutch operators.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, so Pete, what's next for you?

Pete Jenkins:

So I'm involved in a lot of things as well.

Pete Jenkins:

We've just finished a two week surveillance costs.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, in my other hat, I work as a promotional photographer.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, and then the UGA photo journalists.

Pete Jenkins:

So we've, um, we've had a few projects.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, some have hit the news recently.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, a couple of more may hit the New Zealand in three or four weeks time

Pete Jenkins:

on some of the, uh, Investigations that I've been involved with,

Pete Jenkins:

but I'm slowly training, carrying out the investigation work still.

Pete Jenkins:

Um, it should take us up to Christmas if, for my life to say that word.

Phelim:

Yeah.

Phelim:

It's nearly there.

Phelim:

It's a think things, things are moving really, really fast.

Phelim:

All right.

Phelim:

Well, this is short and sweet, but I really appreciate the

Phelim:

look into the world of ocean as applied to executive protection.

Phelim:

That's why it's fantastic to have Sean our co presenter.

Phelim:

Anyway, who's been on your course, uh, and, uh, yeah, Pete

Phelim:

from Shauna, myself, it's been

Pete Jenkins:

a pleasure having.

Pete Jenkins:

That's been a pleasure being here.

Pete Jenkins:

Thanks very much.

Intro:

Open source

Phelim:

intelligence.

Phelim:

Absolutely.

Phelim:

Everywhere as is your data.

Phelim:

I think such a key set of takeaways from Pete and, and of course Shaun's,

Phelim:

uh, experience learning from Pete.

Phelim:

I really enjoyed today's session.

Phelim:

Uh, what did you take away?

Phelim:

Uh, John, I think there was so many different nuggets.

Phelim:

Yeah,

Jon:

definitely.

Jon:

We, we went down, lots of rabbit holes.

Jon:

I fail in this one and all it did was peak interest.

Jon:

I think this is really a great taste, the episodes to wet people's appetite and

Jon:

also to, um, bring home the importance of why everyone needs to know something.

Jon:

and if that's of interest to you.

Jon:

The different ways in which you can take that knowledge further, just like Sean has

Phelim:

done.

Phelim:

And as Pete alluded to, even with that canonical book, um, that, that,

Phelim:

that people seem to, to pick up, um, or no send, it needs updating every

Phelim:

six to 12 months, because there's always a new source or there are

Phelim:

always sources that used to be free and, and not, uh, and things that

Phelim:

used to be closed and are now open.

Phelim:

So I think.

Phelim:

It's a continual education to try and look at it.

Phelim:

And there are some real world applications.

Phelim:

You, you don't want the call sign of your principles.

Phelim:

Private jet features.

Phelim:

All over the place, but yet, conversely, you might want to know if somebody of

Phelim:

particular interest who potentially could threaten your principal is coming to town.

Phelim:

So it's really swings and roundabouts.

Phelim:

You're going to use it internally and externally.

Phelim:

Yeah.

Jon:

I think one aspect of the discussion that I really enjoyed

Phelim:

was,

Jon:

well, first of all, let me say that.

Jon:

I think.

Jon:

Uh, lots of people, this topic can often seem like, uh, you know,

Jon:

delving deep into search engines and extracting information about people

Jon:

through social media and so on.

Jon:

And of course that does play a big part in it.

Jon:

But I think the example that.

Jon:

Brought up with the photograph that he gives to students, you know, and asks

Jon:

them if they have this competition to see who can come back with the information.

Jon:

First, I think these, um, a really good exercises and it's a really

Jon:

good demonstration of how powerful.

Jon:

These resources are that you can get a random photograph and that

Jon:

you can then run with that and start to extract information.

Jon:

Like where is the person?

Jon:

Where, where on the planet are they, what, what road are they on?

Jon:

What time of year?

Jon:

What time of day, you know, and taken all these different bits of information with.

Jon:

Investigative mind, which I think is also really important.

Jon:

It's not just tech.

Jon:

So it is about application as well.

Jon:

And coming up with, a really specific set of data, you know, from that

Jon:

that's, that's really exciting and, and it's really, uh, dangerous as well.

Jon:

And that's why we should be enthused by this and gab, you know, to,

Jon:

to get the knowledge ourselves.

Jon:

But.

Jon:

So we can use it in an investigative way, but also so that we can

Jon:

ring fence ourselves and our clients and protect them.

Phelim:

Absolutely.

Phelim:

And, and, and the power of some of these, uh, uh, open source,

Phelim:

uh, you know, feeds, uh, both.

Phelim:

You know, both sides of the fence is, is amazing.

Phelim:

Um, I think in the podcast, I mentioned the docent curious

Phelim:

project, which has quite a lot of people from the Netherlands.

Phelim:

And I know Pete said there's a lot of strong practitioners from the Netherlands.

Phelim:

I literally went on their Twitter feed and they've sent me to, and

Phelim:

the enormous, uh, treasure trove of potential Osen sources ranging from.

Phelim:

Arm's trading banking, bribery, datasets, crypto country,

Phelim:

risk geo N human trafficking.

Phelim:

I'm literally written them off the page.

Phelim:

And I'm thinking if, if I found this list on just one little search,

Phelim:

what could I find if I spent time?

Phelim:

Um, now, now, obviously I can't vouch for the effectiveness of any of these tools

Phelim:

that I've literally just come across, but that's the spirit of you've got.

Phelim:

Curious about, um, about the task at hand.

Phelim:

There's a lot of places we could go with this podcast

Phelim:

today, but I'm really pleased.

Phelim:

We looked at it in, you know, with that teacher trainer and a student perspective.

Phelim:

Talking about learning and development.

Phelim:

We have our very own learning and development forum coming

Phelim:

up on the 19th of November.

Phelim:

Uh, it will be in the UK evening, uh, us afternoon and Australian morning, and

Phelim:

it's going to be a very, very interesting.

Phelim:

All around workplace violence and its applicability to executive protection,

Phelim:

which I think John you'll agree is going to be an increasingly big problem.

Phelim:

Well, Paul

Jon:

it's always been a big problem and it will always continue to be a big problem.

Jon:

And yeah, I think.

Jon:

In recent times, it's probably been exacerbated also.

Jon:

And, people coming back into the workplace workplace is changing

Jon:

and different pressures and stresses on us as well, these days.

Jon:

So these can all spill over onto.

Jon:

Knowing how to deal with these situations, both, you know, once they do spill

Jon:

over, but also what really interests me is the preventative side and the

Jon:

steps that can be taken beforehand.

Jon:

And I know, uh, without, dropping any names at this stage, I know some

Jon:

of our guests that we have lined up are very knowledgeable in this area.

Jon:

So it's, it's going to be an absolute feast.

Phelim:

Absolutely faced.

Phelim:

And indeed, you know, we're bringing the pages of the magazine to life.

Phelim:

I think it's going to feature more in our articles.

Phelim:

Of course, we're always looking for more lovely articles and varied articles.

Phelim:

But apart from that, I think we're really pleased at the moment at the

Phelim:

engagement we're getting across the board, but we still need you to share

Phelim:

this podcast to spread the word.

Phelim:

If you liked it, hopefully did, uh, please share and spread the message.

Phelim:

And then if you wouldn't mind, if you go to our individual sources

Phelim:

and hit, like, it really does boost everything we're doing.

Phelim:

And just, just to show that little bit of support, uh, be that on Twitter or

Phelim:

Instagram, or indeed, if you go into the BBA connect app or the NABA Protector.

Phelim:

Uh, that is also a fantastic place to engage.

Phelim:

Oh.

Phelim:

Sent I'm really, really interested in it, actually.

Phelim:

So much more interested.

Phelim:

Now I've done a little bit of hosting myself.

Phelim:

So from John and myself, it's been a pleasure talking to Pete Jenkins today,

Phelim:

and we look forward to engaging with you on another Circuit magazine podcast.

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