Easter is supposed to be a time of joy and renewal, but for many who've experienced religious trauma, it can bring up something far more complicated. In this episode, Sam and Elise set aside the conventional Easter narrative to sit with the harder, quieter feelings this time of year can stir up, drawing on their own experiences to explore how themes of suffering, sacrifice, and mandated celebration leave lasting marks on identity and self-perception. From the emotional whiplash between Good Friday's grief and Easter Sunday's compulsory joy, to the internal pressure of feeling like you're doing the holiday "wrong," they create an honest space for the feelings that so often go unspoken. This isn't an episode about how to cope; it's an invitation to simply acknowledge where you are, and a reminder that if Easter feels more like a weight than a celebration, you are far from alone in that.

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1. Connect with Elise via her website - https://www.eliseheerde.com/ and over on Instagram

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4. Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

Welcome to another episode of beyond the Surface. Today's episode is going to be an Easter episode.

It'll be a good time, fun time, except that this episode is going to be a little bit different to the Easter one that I did last year with Jane. The episode that I did with Jane was very much focused on how to be okay over Easter.

And we talked about ways to look after ourselves and be kind to ourselves. And if that's what you need leading into Easter this year, then by all means, stay. Seek out that episode.

Potentially more so than listening to this one. That is not what this episode is going to be about.

Instead, I've invited good friend and fellow co founder of the religious trauma collective, Elise Heerde. And today we are going to be talking about all of the ways that Easter just kind of fucked us up a little bit.

So this is going to be a very casual conversation, talking about all of just the very, like, loud and sometimes quiet ways that it got inside of us, started shaping us, and just altered the way that we saw ourselves a little bit. It is not a coping guide kind of episode.

We hope that it will fall as a way to feel reassured and validated that you are not alone in feeling a little bit fucked up over Easter and potentially all of the ways that we would like to throw it into a metaphorical bonfire. So welcome, Elise.

Thank you. I think it was a perfect introduction to what we're about to talk about.

Yeah, I just. I also just. We always talk about, like, the idea of, like, burning things down, like burning the system down. And I was like.

I just felt a little bit like. I don't know about you, but my youth group days were centered around bonfires.

It was probably like a country thing, but, like, we always had bonfires. And I was like.

It just felt like a little bit of, like a subtle you to, like, the spaces where I heard some of these things to just throw them into the bonfire.

Yes, absolutely. Oh, gosh, yes. That takes me back to, like, children's camps.

Oh, my gosh.

Like church children.

Children.

Yeah. Because, you know, why would you not. When you're.

When you're already teaching them that they may end up in a fire, why would you not sit them around a fire to tell them that?

Yeah, I mean, it's good. Like literal imagery. Gosh. Okay.

Well, I mean, we weren't even, like, planning on talking about that, but that's a really good way to start a up conversation, so.

Yeah, why not?

Oh, I mean, when we think about, like, things that were deemed holy, that were Weaponized against us during Easter specifically. What's the first thing that comes to mind for you?

The first thing that comes to mind is how good suffering is.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That suffering is great. And it actually proves how holy you are. The more that you can suffer, the holier that you are. And around Easter, we're gonna talk about.

It's all about the suffering.

Yeah, it is. Like, even just, like, hearing you say it, I'm just like, it's so stupid.

Like, on the surface, breaking away any of the spiritual laden messages attached to it. The idea that suffering is good for you, not that bad things happen just naturally. That's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about suffering and that, like, that's holy. Like.

Yeah.

To.

To even put yourselves. Put yourself in a position where you know you're going to suffer because it will refine you. There's another connection to fire.

Did you ever sing the song Refine as Fire?

Yes.

Oh, my gosh. I always have to check because if people don't know. Elise and I came from different flavors of Christianity.

So, like, I came from the hymn flavor and you came from the Hillsong Flav.

Yes. I mean, we did love a couple of hymns, which we'll talk about.

Yes, I mean, we did. I did spend like a good, like, chunk of time at the end of my, like, faith journey.

I hate the word journey in Pentecostalism, but the chunk of my time was very much like a keyboard and, and a hymn and. And I was usually the one singing them, so that's fun. I think the first thing I was.

I wasn't really sure where to bring this into the conversation because it kind of is just like the whole conversation. But when I think of Holy Weapon, the first thing that came to mind was the passion of the Christ.

Like, like, and how it was weaponized, but also just seen as like the be and all of Easter. Content to just like and to show children and teenagers and to just like, build that into the way that you talked about it.

I've only, like, I've seen it a handful of times because. And I was supposed to watch it every year. And the years that I did, I was like, it's just manipulating guilt into your system.

I'm assuming it was a pretty hefty part of your Easter also.

Yeah, absolutely. We were also encouraged to watch it often to remind ourselves of what was done on our behalf that we deserved but didn't get.

And I had people around me that would ask, like, have you. Have you watched it? When's the last time you watched it? And it was always. The conversation was always. I made myself watch it again.

And so it's not like anyone was going, I love watching this. This is a really beautiful movie and depiction of love. It's like you had to make yourself watch it.

Yeah.

And that was as adults. And they would then be having their kids watch it with them. And it's an extremely, like, take all the manipulation out of it, which is the main part.

But it's also very graphic.

Hugely.

A show like, you would not be getting your children to watch any other movie that is that graphic. Except that this was okay. Because this was about God and it

was done for you. Like, you're supposed to watch that. Yeah.

And think, that should have been me.

Exactly. Like that, like, visual graphic imagery that you. It's one thing to imagine, like, someone being nailed to a cross in your head.

It is another thing to watch that on a film screen that's done graphically and, like, to be like, it's good cinematography. And it's like, that's part of the problem.

And so you are then supposed to watch that and not only know that it was for you and feel guilty, but you simultaneously also supposed to be grateful.

Yeah. And I mean, not.

Not to take too much of a tangent, but when you've also grown up with the belief in the Rapture and being left behind and that you possibly could be killed that way for your faith, it's also like a reality that you think is going to be your future anyway.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's terrifying on many, many levels. Yeah.

I. I mean, I like hot take, therapist hot take here. My personal hot take. Not a clinical one.

I think letting kids watch the Passion of the Crisis Child Abuse with, like, the spiritual language laden over it, that you need to watch this knowing that this was done for you, that this sacrifice was because you are so awful and so broken that this blood sacrifice had to happen to redeem you.

I don't think that there is any way that that land, fear, shame, guilt, manipulation in a child who is, like, developmentally not able to understand that this is just a movie.

Yeah. There is no other way for it. I think that's a solid hot take.

Yeah. Thanks.

Yeah.

Duo hot take. I mean, like, how does it sit with you in terms of, like, something that was, like me, that used to be meaningful, that is now manipulative?

Because I think we both sit on the side that the Easter narrative and story and the symbolism of Easter has got an inherent manipulation attached to It. But we didn't always think like that.

No, of course not. Why, when you're in the. Like, in the very height of it, would you think that that's no manipulation?

Because.

And I think that's what you notice after you've left, or maybe when you're even considering that maybe this doesn't feel as good as I thought it did or as right as I thought it did. And like, things that are meaningful invite reflection. It allows space for different choices.

It doesn't have that sense of urgency or shame attached to it. When things are manipulative, there are, like, pressure to respond. Your choices collapse instantly.

You don't actually have any informed choice that you can make. And there is this artificial crisis that's created.

Oh, I like that.

So that, like, that manipulation, if you're looking for a way to go, is there possibly manipulation in this? For me, how intense does it feel? Yeah. Because if there's a real intensity or a sense of crisis, maybe.

Maybe it's not as meaningful in a way that's actually going to support you as you might think.

Absolutely. I love that term, artificial crisis. I don't think I've ever heard it referred to as that. That's sick. I like that.

Because it's not real. There is no actual crisis going on.

No.

And I think, for me, the biggest difference between those two things and sitting with the difference is that, like, is something that is supposedly meaningful, is that costing you, or are you sacrificing basic human rights and dignity? Like, are you sacrificing your voice and your agency and your ability, like you said, your ability to choose differently?

Are you going to lose things that you should not lose simply because you don't want to take responsibility for something that was not yours to take responsibility for? I'm curious how you think about it. Like, how do you sit with the fact that, like, those times were meaningful for you, though?

Like, because I look back and Easter was a shitstorm for me because it was just the time where I would manufacture, like, emotion that I didn't. Like, I would sometimes feel. But you just had to turn the volume up at Easter because it was the time. It's like the big moment of the year.

But also there was still meaning attached to it. Like, I still believed the things.

Yeah.

And you believed that that was, like, a really good reason to have to turn up and bring all of the emotion and bring, like, every single ounce of energy that you had left. The church that I was at, I would usually have, like, a good four to six week lead up into Easter.

And so by the time I actually got to Easter, I was thinking about this question going, what or how did it feel meaningful for me at the time? And I think I was just so exhausted by the time that we got to Easter because it was a huge production.

Yeah.

I don't remember feeling anything other than exhaustion.

Yeah, I think it felt meaningful in the sense that I would be sitting in meetings and there would be a lot of emotion, a lot of, like, very, very somber kind of productions going on. And so I think that that probably felt meaningful at the time.

Yeah.

But I connect that more to the performance that was going on now than it actually being meaningful in a personal sense that I would still hold on to now.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think while you're in it, it just is, like, so normal. Like, was there a moment for you? Was it just, like, pretty slow?

Because I think for me, it happened quite slowly over a bit of time where, like, it was normal, and then it's anything but normal.

Yeah, it was. There was not just one moment for me. It was a period of time.

And I think for me, I was kind of that maybe 9 to 12 months where it was really unraveling that kind of landed over the Easter period. So I was already really starting to question. And I think it was that depiction of Easter and what that felt like that kind of solidified for me.

Oh, this is horrible.

Yeah.

Like, this is actually really dangerous to be teaching adults, let alone kids and teenagers, this message. Yes, it was. It was slow. But when you see it, like, you really see it.

Yeah. You can't not see it. I think, like. And I think it took me. I'm just thinking.

I heard you say, like, nine to 12 months, and I was like, fuck, I think we could double that. For me, I think it took far longer. And also, just because, like, I was so disconnected from myself that I just.

It didn't occur to me why I would just feel anxious and nauseous and off every April. And, like, it just didn't occur to me. And I now, like, I still. I still don't love Easter. I. Like, we have.

We.

As we sort of drive in and out of our town, there is, like, one of the churches that puts, like, a giant cross on the side of the road draped in, like, purple robes and all of that sort of thing. And I still, like, cringe for a moment when I see it, because. And to be fair, I think I always will. And that's okay.

Like, I think not having a reaction to it is Not. Is. Is, like, not the goal for me, but, yeah, it's. Easter is complicated and messy and I think takes.

I think it's one of the things that takes the longest to unravel.

Yeah. And I had been questioning for a few years. Yeah. And as we know, like, Christmas. Christmas. Yeah, Christmas, too.

But Easter really is, like, the center of this, is what our whole faith and belief system is based on.

Yeah.

And so it's probably one of the last things that I was really able to sit with and unpack because it's like, if this no longer feels right, it's all gone.

Like, what else is there?

That's what it felt like. Like, that's the string that you pull, and you cannot, like, shove it back into the jumper. It just doesn't fit.

No, absolutely. And, I mean, there might be some people who haven't. Like, props to you, because I don't know how I would have done that and pulled on that.

Because, like you said, it is, like, the core central theme of the good News that, like, is not super good at all, to be fair. But, yes, like, Christmas is hard, but let's be honest, like, Christmas is more about Joseph and Mary than it is about Jesus. Easter, solely Jesus.

And that's supposed to be your focus. So.

Yes.

What about the. Like, I sort of gave the imagery of, like, that cross on the outside of my town and things like that.

What comes to mind for you when you have that imagery or thinking about, like, the way that that symbol was, like, weaponized against you?

Yeah. It immediately reminds me that that was my husband's job, every Easter, was to put the cross up inside the service.

Oh,

yeah. He would always disappear, like, at.

At some point, either on the Thursday or very early on Good Friday morning, to make sure that, like, the cross was, like, up on the stage where it needed to be. Because that was obviously the focus of Good Friday. And so it reminds me.

It reminds me, like, the pain was what we were meant to be focusing on and torture, like, really big, heavy themes that we then also had to feel super grateful for.

Yeah.

And so it was this weird kind of mix of I meant to feel sad, but I'm also meant to feel really grateful. And for me, like, that image of the. Of a cross brings all of that back to mind, like, just, in a word, confusion.

Like, really, really confused about how I was meant to be feeling, what I should be feeling, and then what I actually was feeling.

Yeah.

And then you add that I wasn't very connected to my emotions at all. So it was Usually just looking around, trying to figure out how are other people responding? Because I need to try and respond the same way.

Yeah. Try being the worship leader that everybody else is looking to.

Yeah. No, well, I. You know, for some of the Easters, I was on the platform doing the communion or.

Yeah.

You know, needing to be part of. Yeah. Part of that team. I'm very glad I was. That was. The one team I was never on was the worship team.

Mainly because I don't have a musical in my body.

Oh, my goodness. I mean, it, like, it's just so, like, you sort of saying, like, you're looking at everybody else to sort of go, like, how am I supposed to feel?

And I know that, like, Particularly, like, the young people that I was leading at the time, I know that they were probably doing the same thing to me and the rest of the people leading worship like, that they're looking to us going, like, what are. What are we supposed to be feeling here?

And I was in a space where, like, the worship was not supposed to be, like, super emotive in terms of, like, showiness. And so you had to straddle this line of, I'm supposed to show guilt and gratitude at the same time.

And yet I'm also not supposed to show emotion at all. It's just the weirdest thing.

Yeah. That. See, I would normally be able to sit on the front row and watch the worship leader and know, okay, this is. This is a song about gratitude.

Right now I'm meant to be, like, smiling and feeling like this. This is all amazing. And then the next song is about, like, grief and suffering. And now I'm meant to be really sad. And. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I. I would look to, like, what was happening on the platform.

Yeah.

And how would they. Like, what kind of emotions were they bringing out? And go, okay, that's how I should be feeling.

Yeah.

So if you wouldn't do that. Yeah, that's hard.

You would have had no idea looking at me because I'm simultaneously trying to feel and not feel at the same time. It's so strange. And. Because, yeah. It's just the most bizarre scenario. And I, like.

I think, like, the symbolism of the cross comes back to that first thing that you sort of said of, like, that suffering is. Is holy and, like, necessary. And when you look at what Jesus did and what he endured for you, then, like, what right do I have to complain?

To feel, to be sad, to like, have anything other than, like, absolute, like, gratitude at this sacrifice? I don't get anything else. Then because it pales in comparison.

Exactly.

I'm assuming that that's the language that was used in your space as well. That, like, this was a sacrifice. Be grateful for said sacrifice. And also, like, don't complain. Like, you just minimize your own shit.

Absolutely. It was gratitude without boundaries.

Yeah.

It was like, you. You be grateful or else now you're being selfish.

Yeah.

So then that means you are expected to have, like, total, unquestioning obedience to whoever is telling you what gratitude needs to look like. So if gratitude needs to look like, you help out wherever we need help.

Yeah.

You. You show the emotion that we need you to show for other people to feel like. To feel like the Holy Spirit is moving in this service.

Yeah.

Leader. And you're up the front, and you need to lead by example. And then there's your just the small thing, like, endless forgiveness.

Like, you need to forgive everyone because he forgave you to the extent that he then died on your behalf. So then you. Again, you don't feel like you have a choice to choose if you want to serve or volunteer.

You need to just stay quiet if things don't feel right, because that's a problem with you and you clearly don't have enough gratitude.

Yeah.

I feel like who you were during the, like, the Easter period, whether it was like, a Pentecostal four to six weeks or like, the Easter week, just like, neither of those scenarios are normal, but, like, I feel like who you were during Easter was like a measuring stick as to where your spiritual health was at.

Yes, absolutely. Because, again, this was the core of your faith. And if you weren't responding in the right way, there was something wrong with you as a Christian.

Yeah. Like, let alone, like, gosh, could you imagine what would have happened? I. This never happened with me.

I just don't think it would have ever even been possible. Could you imagine having not going to an Easter service?

No.

Like, I literally just, like, got chills even thinking about.

I just think, like, we weren't allowed to even. Even as staff. That was a blackout period. You could not take time off over Easter if you were a key volunteer.

You maybe could take it off if you had a really, really good reason and you had already found replacements for yourself in what you were meant to be doing.

But even then there was the implied, like, are you really serious about your faith if you're not going to be here at Easter, we don't care that your family who don't go to church are gathering without you. Like, this is the sacrifice you make. Because of the sacrifice that he made.

Yeah.

So no, I would never imagine not being there and not being there for multiple services on an Easter. So it was. Yeah, Good Friday, then Easter Sunday would have multiple services and then we would try and fit in family stuff around that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know. We would not dare not turn up.

Like, I just, like, I don't think I would have ever not went to. To church on an Easter on like over Easter. I just don't think. I can't even fathom a scenario where that would have ever been. Okay. Yeah.

Which again, basic human rights.

Yes. Because you know that there's going to be some form of consequences for it.

Yeah, there's a consequence for it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's. It's just. Yeah.

So normal.

Oh yeah. Totally. Totally normal. Again, we really hope that this episode feels validating for people listening.

This is the section that like I talk about the most in terms of like the way that Easter like really messed with my head again, as a former worship leader.

The music just like gets a grip in and I remember talking to someone about it and I like, I talked about it now from like a nervous system perspective in that we use music to like regulate our. It goes straight into our nervous system. It's sensory.

And so when we are then singing songs that has language that is shame and manipulation and guilt based, that's like just injecting it straight into your nervous system. It's really fucked up, to be fair.

Yeah, yeah. It's just like shame, but in a drip.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. But I know that like music was not a big part for you. So like, what is. How do the, how does the music land for you now?

Yeah, I feel like it was a big part for me in terms of I was obviously part of a church that was very well known for their music. So it was always a huge part of every service that I was in, especially services that would be more like productions like Easter. And so it.

Yeah, it would be really emotional. Like heightened emotion. Very intense. Very much. Like we were even told how we were like physically meant to be responding to that.

So not just like whether we needed to be seated or standing, which you didn't have a choice. Like you, you had to stand. Like whether you need to be lifting your hands. And if you're not, what is going on with you? Are you paying attention?

Are you actually connecting with God also knowing that if you were any kind of leader in that space, you were being watched. And so the like the time of like our our 20 minute praise and worship set

would be.

Yeah. Really emotional. And there was just so.

For so many years, I would just connect to the songs and think that it was amazing because I was just like, singing the doctrine that I believed and what was truth to me. And when I started to question all of that, all of that, I'm like, what am I singing? Yeah. What am I actually saying about myself as human being?

Yeah.

And then that got really hard. And it was. It was one of the hardest parts of a service for me to sit in even more than sitting through the preaching.

So I feel like I could kind of critique that and do that on, like, a brain level. But music gets your whole body, and it was much harder to kind of dissociate from that.

Yeah. And it is. I mean, in the space that you came from, it is designed to get, like, the way that the whole, like, 20 minute window is set up.

The types of songs, the way that the songs are written, the types of, like, music that is used is designed to conjure a physical response in your body.

Yeah. And then you add that we were all in blacked out rooms with lights, and if it was a really.

A really good Sunday, we would have, like, the fog machine. And that's when God really shows up.

Yeah. It's the Holy Spirit.

And so it was the whole environment. And then you add the music to it. Yeah. And it's a whole thing.

Absolutely. I mean, I've, like, I feel like. I've got to admit, I loved those 20 minute praise and worship sessions. They were just. They would like.

They were my favorite thing about being a part of a Pentecostal church.

There was a few years where I did a double Easter service because I would do the service in my home church that morning, and then a few of us would drive to the good old Baucom Hills and go to what I know people refer to as the mothership for Easter service that evening. And we loved it because it was so polar opposite to what we came from. Like, I was not allowed. Like, it was an. It was not a spoken out loud rule.

But in the same way that you said you were being watched. If I lifted my hands during worship in my home church, I would have had someone speak to me afterwards. Why are you drawing an attention to you?

Like, this is not about you.

And so we were being watched for opposite reasons.

Yes. Yeah. Yes.

And so I loved going into those spaces because in those spaces it felt like I had less rules than I had in my own church, which the irony of that is now not lost on me. But what, like, just to, you know, reminisce for a little bit, like, what music comes to mind?

Because I know that I've got, like, multiple written down here.

Yes, you do have a few. And I'll probably let you talk about the first one that I had written down, which was. Oh, Praise the Name.

Oh, yeah.

And that was, like, done relentlessly.

But one that we would do, which might surprise some people, if, you know, where I came from was we would often go to the good old hymn of Nothing but the Blood, especially on Good Friday.

Yeah.

And so that one, like, I feel like if we're talking about what felt meaningful, I felt like that the.

When we kind of slowed things down, and I felt like it wasn't so much of a production, except now I'm like, actually, it was very strategic to also use hymns and to slow everything down.

That, for me, would always bring up the biggest kind of emotions, because so much of the language in that song is about what I'd already been taught, that I was sinful and was dirty and needed to be cleansed. And the only thing that can do that is blood. And that felt so normal for me.

When you grow up with the Bible and stories like Abraham and Isaac and God demanding a sacrifice. And so that. Yeah, like, the. The language in that is very, very problematic.

But it was essentially saying that you're broken and the only thing that can make you whole again is the blood. Of course. Sacrifice.

Yeah.

So again, there's this. I'm so unworthy, I am so broken, and I needed someone else to be tortured and killed so that I didn't have to, because I really deserve that.

Yeah.

And I feel like that song just sums up all of that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the other song that you mentioned, Appraise the name, is basically just, like, doctrine in a song.

Like, I know we will talk about, like, the whiplash that happens over that weekend. And that song is whiplash in doctrine form. Like, you start at the beginning and you end with the resurrection. And, like, it is just.

You are supposed to feel like, a wave of emotions. Like, you are on a roller coaster of emotion in one single song.

And I. I, like, I. I remember saying to you beforehand that I fought for a good 12 months to get this song into my church because, like, I loved the out of it.

And I mean, to be fair, like, the problem is that especially with, like, hillsong music, is that you strip away the really problematic lyrics and they're banger tunes because they're Supposed to be.

They will get stuck in your head.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I. Like, I don't even want to try, but I reckon I could probably, like, sing it in my head still.

I'm not going to try because it will get stuck.

You don't want to sing it out loud?

No, not at all. No. My worship days are far past me, thankfully.

We'll probably have to give another content warning for that.

Oh, my gosh. If. If anybody is going to sing in an episode, I'm pulling Aaron Kelly in, so he will rip out a tune and left, right, and center.

But, I mean, I think the.

The biggest songs that came to mind for me when I was prepping for this were the ones that had either the strongest language or they had the repetitive verses that you would say sing over and over and over again for, like, sometimes a good five minutes. Because repetitive, spontaneous worship is where it's at, right? Like, that's when you are supposed to be able to connect with the Holy Spirit.

And I think one of the ones that does that so well is Chris Tomlin's at the Cross, which is like, the bridge of that is, like, now my debt is paid. It's paid in full.

And it, like, comes back to that idea that, like, you are supposed to now take responsibility for a debt that was paid, even though it's not your responsibility at all. And so, like, that has a very big. We didn't do that a lot at my church.

That would have been the one that I would have heard in other Pentecostal churches. But the ones that we did, we did more. So a lot of hymns, but the two that we would have done the most, which.

This is not inherently an Easter song, this one that I'm about to talk about, but there is a line in there that was. It was in Easter because of this line, and it was, here I am to worship.

And there is a line in that song that says, I'll never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross. And it, like, it just brings. Like, how are you not supposed to sing those words and feel inherently, like, how.

Yes. Like, right now I have. Like.

I saw your reaction, and I was like, oh.

I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, nauseated.

Oh, yeah. And so, like. And I was typing these lyrics out when I. Because, like.

And somehow, yeah, I typed the lyrics out, and also somehow I didn't need to look them up for these two. But. And like, good old hymns around, like, the Old Rugged Cross. But in particular, like, when I survey. When I survey the wondrous cross, which was.

And this, I think was encapsulated what Easter was supposed to be about beyond the Easter weekend, which was the line in it that says, love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all. And, like, it was like, what is Easter beyond this weekend? Everything. Like, you don't get to forget what Easter means once Easter Sunday is gone.

You now have to hold that in you every single day until next year at Easter.

Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's like choosing again every Easter that now for the next 12 months, I am not my own. I am going to sacrifice whatever I need to.

Like, I'm. I'm not worthy to make any decisions myself.

Yeah, yeah. You completely lose your whole sense of humanity in there. There's an.

And we also know that. That, like, you were saying that the songs where you had to just repeat the same line over and over.

Like, we know now that that is an indoctrination technique to be repeating the same things over and over. And then you add that to music that connects your emotions to it.

Yep, that.

That sticks. Like, I'm not looking forward to the next few days, so I'm gonna have so many of these songs stuck in my head. That's fine. You will, too.

Yeah, I will. That's the problem. And I'm such a music person, so I can't.

Yeah.

Like, it just takes forever. And usually my stock standard approach of, like, getting a song out of my head is listening to it. That will not be happening.

Oh, please don't do that.

No. Ironically, the one song that always got me at Easter is actually a song that most, like, a good portion of people don't even know when I mention it.

I've mentioned it a few times. And it's a song called why by Nicole Nordeman. Do you know it?

Yeah, I might as well listen to it, but maybe. What? What? Tell me some of the lyrics. I'm not gonna ask you to sing it.

No, I'm not gonna sing it. But essentially, like, this song is like a story of, like, this little girl, like, at the time of Jesus being killed, was.

Went out looking for his, like, her father and event. Like, each verse is kind of like, from the daughter's perspective to her father, and then from. Oh, I love when I forget.

From Jesus's perspective to God, and then from God's perspective to Jesus. It's, like, very. But, like, it's very manipulative. And the reason that it always sticks with me is because the last. The very last line is.

Is God talking to Jesus around, like, why he has to die. And this little girl is now standing next to her father, watching him get nailed to the cross. And. And he says to Jesus, like, look down below.

See that child? There she is. Why you must die? Like, that's the last line. Like, it's awful. And I laugh because I don't have anything else to do with that.

Yes.

Like, I. Yeah.

I'm even remembering, like, messages that I would give around the fact that, you know, God knew that he. He was gonna have to sacrifice his child. And we generally feel uncomfortable talking about child sacrifice except when it comes to God.

Yeah.

And we.

Yeah, we bring in this just huge emotional and psychological manipulation to blame people for something that was one either not their fault or didn't happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

Like where. Wherever you land in that space, either way, you're being. You're being blamed and it's your fault.

Yeah.

And you didn't even choose to exist. He chose to put you here.

Yeah.

But let's not get. That's a whole other thing.

No, and. And, like, when we say that, like, it, like, lands as blame. We're saying, like, in your nervous system.

Like, it lands in your nervous system as blame, as shame, as guilt. Like it is. There is no other way that our nervous system can process that. It is automatically just going to make you feel about yourself.

Like, my prayers went during Easter in particular, because, again, conjuring and manufacturing guilt was like, please remind me that I was the reason this had to happen. Like, because that was. I mean, there is nothing like emotional manipulation to keep someone in line.

Yeah, absolutely. That. And to then keep. Like, to then keep yourself in line.

Yeah.

To go, well, I. Like, one of my repeated prayers was, show me what I've done wrong that I'm not aware of yet.

Yeah.

Like, that idea of hidden sin, which is why I kept a sin journal for so long, you know, just in case something popped up and I needed to record that so that I could repent. And. And I think Issa really brings that time of, like, intense call to repentance.

Yes.

For anything that you might have done, even if you're, like.

If you're not feeling guilty enough about what happened, you need to repent of that, too, because clearly you don't understand the, like, the magnitude of what has happened. So it, like you said, it lands in our nervous system as guilt and shame, and then we're told that that is good.

Yes.

That that's how it should be landing if you're Taking this seriously.

Yeah. I mean, Easter was like a time of self examination, essentially.

Like, you were supposed to explore, like, that was like, other than to be, like, thankful and grateful for the sacrifice and the resurrection and all of that. It's just a time of self examination.

Like, if you come from, like, Like I did a few years in Catholic school, like Lent, like, it is supposed to be like, self examination, self rep sense. Like it's your spiritual growth season of the year, essentially.

Like, it should be that time where you are almost hyper vigilant about everything that you do, because you should be.

Yeah. And we were always encouraged to fast for Lent.

Yeah.

So you then come into a time in our space of, like, intense work and things that you were meant to be doing to get ready for Easter, and you're meant to be giving stuff up as well and not really looking after yourself.

Yeah.

But again, that's all called, like, good and right and faithful.

Yeah. Again, human rights and needs and dignity. Like, just, like, straight out the door, basic humanity. I mean, I think the other downside.

I mean, there's lots of downsides, but the other main downside that I think of when it comes to, like, that self examination throughout Easter is that, like you said, if you can't find anything, something is wrong with you. Like, you're not. You're not going deep enough. You're like, you're trying to, like, skirt by your, like. And also God sees everything. So, like, what's.

What's the point of the self examination? But I feel like I might be derailing the conversation by going into that anyway. But it just teaches you to override all of your instincts. Right.

Like, you don't get to trust yourself in that moment because there's so much internal monitoring. Like, how are you ever going to be, like, clean enough?

Yeah. Even if you, like, you come into an Easter service and you feel good about yourself, who did that?

Maybe you rock up and you're like, okay, I've repented enough through Lent. I feel like. I feel like I'm okay right now. And then immediately you're like, well, I need to repent for that.

Because I am like, I'm fundamentally broken. And now I'm prideful because I think I've got it all together.

Yeah.

So you find something to repent, or if you're in more of a Pentecostal charismatic space, you ask someone else to pray for you and show you what you're missing.

Oh, yeah.

So then they get to tell you what they think you could be growing in or where your blind spots are or what they think God is saying that you're missing.

Yeah. Nothing like intercessory prayer as a way of power and controlling someone. Fun time. Yeah, it is, absolutely.

I mean, and like, I just can't imagine going into Easter feeling good. Like, I can't ever imagine what that would have felt like.

I feel like would have only been an internal thing. There's no way of walking and gone. Yeah. I feel okay.

Like, you would walk in going, I'm here to find out what's actually wrong, even if I'm not sure what that is.

Yes. Or you then start, like, being, like, repenting for being, like, too prideful or like, something like that. You turn the.

The good, like the good feeling into a bad feeling very quickly because, again, it's just not. It's just not allowed. Like. Yeah, it just.

When you said the sin journal, I was like, oh, wouldn't it have just been nice to, like, journal about normal things?

Yeah, that would have been nice.

It would have been so good.

I don't know. Do people do that? Maybe.

I think, yeah, I think so.

Okay.

We just didn't. I didn't.

None of my journals looked like that.

No, me neither. I have, like two separate. Random side note, I have two separate journals that were dedicated to solely to the Purpose Driven Life. Fun times.

Wow.

Yeah.

Most of my journals would have been journaling through, like, Beth Moore Bible Studies.

Oh, gross. I did have one for captivating, though.

Did you ever do.

It was in a pretty journal, though, at least. It was like, to be fair, it

was like, shame with a bow on.

Yeah. Basically, we're going down, we're diverging a lot.

I mean, I heard time and time again, like, particularly when I was like a teenager, like, if you really loved Jesus and something would come after that, depending on what was happening. Was that something of that variety that you. I would imagine you heard that as well.

Yeah. It was either if you really loved Jesus or if you were really serious about your faith. Yeah.

If you were really invested in growing the kingdom and saving souls, then you would serve more, give more, forgive faster. What else you'd sacrifice more. You would stay when things got really uncomfortable. You wouldn't just leave and you definitely wouldn't question.

You would just submit more to your leadership and that would show that you really love, loved Jesus then. Or you were really committed to kingdom work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaking of commitment, because I don't know about you, how many times did you recommit your life to Jesus over Easter?

Oh, gosh. I can't count multiple.

The limit does not exist in the wise. It does not exist.

You cannot put a limit on that.

Oh, my gosh. Because, like, how are you ever supposed to be really sure? Like, I don't. I never had that level of certainty ever.

I was too afraid to have that level of certainty.

Yeah. Because again, if you. If you had that level of certainty, then there.

There was potentially some pride connected to your face because then you thought that you had it together enough. However, there was.

There was a lot of, like, internal tension with that, because what was communicated was that this is like, you need to commit or recommit your life so you can have certainty about your eternal future. And then in the next moment, it's like. But you can never be too sure. Like, you always have to be checking yourself.

So it was also like that dissonance of going, yes, okay, I need to do this so that I can have certainty. But then at any point, something could go wrong, and you may not have that anymore. So it's confusing.

Yeah, it's a very palatable word for it. Confusing. I mean, I think we very much had the language of, you can't remember everything that you did in the past week.

And so, like, you might as well, like, what's the harm? What's the harm in, like, doing it again?

And also, it was framed as an act of submission to God, essentially by rededicating your life on an ongoing basis, showed ongoing commitment to him and to the cause and to the kingdom and all of that sort of thing. But similarly, we got that if you felt too certain that that could be the enemy, that, like, you couldn't ever feel that certain.

And I did not come from a hugely, like, spiritual warfare kind of church, but that was very much like, if you felt good and solid and firm in your faith, you could have the firmness in the foundation. But if you felt firm, that's a very. That's a very risky place to be in. Because the enemy could get a foothold in that. That.

Yes. He likes to get a foothold, doesn't he?

I know. It's such a weird statement. I don't know why.

It's either that or it's an open door. Whichever. Whichever analogy you want to go with. It's that constant feeling of never being too sure.

Yeah.

And if we always feel like we have to recommit, then we've always got the pressure to do more or to be different somehow, because there's got to be something that I'm doing wrong.

Yeah.

And we know that there's always someone watching.

Always.

Whether that's like the. I probably had really four key groups or people that were watching, which was like, God, of course.

Obviously.

Of course. Leaders were. Other leaders were always watching. Like, I was told on many occasions that senior leadership was watching me.

Yeah.

The devil was always watching.

Always.

And then your peers were always watching.

Yeah.

And so you've got to constantly be apologizing, essentially, which is what repentance is. Right. Like, you've got to apologize for whatever. Whatever you can convince yourself or other people can convince you that you've done wrong.

I. I feel like at some point you just started, like, apologizing for existing. Like, because sometimes that's kind of what. Yeah. Like it's what it was.

Yeah. Because it was simple and broken. And so even if we feel like we have done nothing wrong, we are wrong.

Exactly.

So you've got to apologize for that. But you can't fix yourself.

Yeah.

You've got to get outside.

It's such like, the. I just think the more that I talk about these things, like, it's just like. And I knew this would happen in this conversation, which would.

We would start and we would get D1 railed and we would talk about random. That I did not prepare for. But, like, hearing you say, like, you know what you just did.

And I'm just like, the irony of, like, you are a beloved child of God. And also I, like, you are so unworthy that if you don't submit to me, like fiery pits of hell, it is like.

Like, the irony of that is as, like, disturbing as it is like, like ludicrous.

Yeah.

Like, it's. It. I mean, we've derailed again a little bit, but.

Yeah. So that makes that kind of relevant. Zero sense outside of that system.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Because no one. Well, actually, if someone said that to their own child, if a parent said that to their child.

I love you so much, but if you ever decide that you don't want to be connected with me anymore, you actually don't just deserve punishment here. I'm going to make sure that you are punished for all eternity.

If a parent said that to a child, how long do you think that child would still be with that parent?

Yeah. Like negative time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We think it's okay in this system because it's gone.

Exactly. Yeah. We have wild opinions about that that we will not go into today. But anyway. But, like. And I would. I would agree with the whole watching number.

The. I would also add. I probably two or Three very specific spiritual mentors who would have also been watching me all of the time. Yeah.

And there were a select, probably three or four of the people who I was leading as a youth leader who were children of prominent people in the church as well, who if I up I knew they were hearing about it from, from them. So I even had kids younger than me watching me on behalf of their parents. Parents. So yay.

Gotta love that connection.

Yeah.

I still have some children of pastors watching my work on social media. This is very interesting.

Yeah. Okay.

Speaking of commitment, recommitment, dedication, all of that language, this is an area that I knew that you would be able to talk about far more than I did because again, I came from a smallish family based church where like, where we were encouraged to bring people to Easter service especially I got a lot of language because my family were not in the church that like it's my responsibility to be ministering to them and witnessing to them particularly over Easter and that if they didn't get to Easter, that was another year that went on by that I had not been successful. So we love that level of guilt. But recruitment in Pentecostal spaces is like next level.

Yes, absolutely. I don't know about you, but did you also have the pressure?

And this might just be a weird Pentecostal thing, but with they will kind of take it a step further and go, you are responsible to bring your family, your friends, the people that God has put in your world for you to save. You're responsible for them. And if they don't come and you die, that God is going to hold you responsible for them for like, for their salvation.

So not only that you're now waiting for your impending death and wondering whether you've saved enough people. It's a really to the pressure.

Yeah, it's a really good time when you're the only Christian in your family. Growing up when you're hearing that, it got really hammered into me when I did year 13 with the Sydney Anglican. They were really big on that.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Because how else do you grow a church?

Yeah.

Anyway, okay. Recruitment, which is part of recruitment, right?

Yeah.

Easter was like the time, this is when you need to be bringing people. And like I said before, we would have like a decent lead up to that. So at least four to six weeks before that, every Sunday, I'm talking pre. Covered.

Yes.

Every Sunday we would have like seat drops with the different invitations. There was usually like little cards that would be the invitations you were expected each week to hand out. Each of the pile that was on your seat.

We would have moments in services where the pastor would ask people to get their phones out and to text three people and invite them on the spot.

That reminds me of the movie God's Not Dead. Have you seen that?

That might be where they got it from.

Probably at the end. You are supposed to, like, if you really believe in God, then you need to text, like, every number in your phone. God's not dead. He's surely alive.

Yeah. Newsboy song. Yeah. Random.

Yes. So they. You would have to get your phone out.

And every time I would panic, I'm like, my relatives that are not coming to church have made it very clear that they don't want to come to church. And I am not going to be texting them. I would usually, like, text myself three times or do something. But then they would have.

Some of the leaders would start, like, coming through the service as, like, a fun moment to go. Who did you just invite?

Oh, my gosh. This is not a Q and A.

Yes. Yeah. If you thought that just turn to your neighbor and say hi was the worst time in a service, wait until they come and ask you.

What did your neighbor just talk to you about? Tell me one thing about them that you didn't know. So you were tested to make sure you were actually doing it.

That's like.

Yes. And if you didn't, you would have been, like, humiliated if you didn't actually do what you were just told to do from the platform.

So really targeted campaigns. We had the.

The Cross Equals Love campaign where we literally had it in skywriting in, I think, four or five states, they were up to where they would do the skywriting. Everyone would be encouraged to go take photos, put it on their social media. There was usually, like, a hashtag for that year, but it was more the.

How personal they made it and how.

How much it was then put on you that if you walked into a Sunday Easter service or a Good Friday Easter service and you did not have other people coming with you, you knew that you were being judged for that, that either you, like, didn't do well enough or, you know, you'd have to. You would have to make up some kind of excuse as to why you weren't able to get more people there. And then they. I'll be careful how much I say.

This would then get kind of played out on a staff level of numbers. Attendance.

Yeah.

Spiritual KPI, like, campus against campus. Who's doing better and then who's not. And they would also be like, Humiliated and told that they weren't. They weren't doing enough to get to. To grow.

It was always to grow the kingdom, to grow the church. Like, that's why we're doing it. Not just because we actually want more people coming in.

Yeah. And also money.

They're going to tithe so that we can do more buildings and more churches. And. And yes, it was. It was very targeted that it was a huge production.

The senior pastor would usually like, pre record his message from a special location. So even the message on Easter Sunday or Good Friday was like a big thing.

There would be a lot around, like, just different things they were going to do to make it more appealable. Appealable? Is that a word? Appealing. Thank you. More appealing for families to come.

So they would have things like a petting zoo or like, you know, hot cross buns or different things.

Normal.

Yeah. Like, why would you not. Why would you not have a petting suit? Because if you can get the kids to come, you can get their parents to come.

Yeah.

Which was not just a subtle thing like that that was said, like, make sure your children are also inviting their school friends, because if they come, their parents are going to have to come with them. So very strategic campaigns, strategic productions on the actual day.

And then like, big emotional appeals for people to give their life to Jesus, to, you know, to take a Bible to give, get. To get people's details so that they could then be followed up. Yeah.

It was a huge thing, which is why I say by the time I got to Easter, I was exhausted.

Yeah. I mean, I don't blame you. I think a lot of people don't actually realize, like, just how strategic it is.

Like, I mean, even, like the Pentecostal pop quiz is even new to me, but like, I. I knew all about, like, essentially the like, the equivalent of like, spiritual KPIs and things like that in Pentecostal spaces. But I think a lot of people don't necessarily see, like, they see the big, you know, shiny, emotionally charged production.

And I mean, to be fair, like, they're pretty good productions. I mean, in, like, I'll give them credit, like, they put on a good show, meaning behind the show, she's pretty shitty. But the show itself. Great. Yeah.

Yeah. But I don't think a lot of people see beyond that because they don't see the strategic.

They just see it as like, this really beautiful sacred service, and they don't actually see all the strategy behind it. And so I think it's kind of like the equivalent of like, seeing behind it's like the wizard of Oz thing, like, behind the curtain.

Yeah. And sometimes they. They would be really open about telling the congregation.

Like, the next week, we had, like, this many hundred people come to our service. And so it wasn't even that they were trying to hide the KPIs that they were trying to reach.

It was then the language that they wrapped around that, which was, see what God did. God is bringing people into his, into our kingdom whenever they got any kind of pushback on. But, you know, it's about the numbers. It was always.

No, we track the numbers to be able to, you know, look after health. And so just very, like, gaslighting the way that they would explain why they did KPIs. Yeah. But very, very strategic, very purposeful.

Every single thing that was done around Easter. Yeah.

Okay.

Let's talk about the emotional whiplash between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, because we sort of, like, mentioned it way back when we were talking about her praise. The name, which is absolutely still in my head. Thank you. But, like, the emotional, like, roller coaster that is Easter is, like, wild.

Like, even just the language that, like, Good Friday, like, is attached to what Good Friday represents. Like, what do you remember? And this is. I, like.

I remember writing this question, and I was like, I don't even know what if I would know how to answer this. Because, like, you were only just ever supposed to feel, like, really, really fucking awful about yourself, but also grateful at the same time.

But what was Good Friday like for you?

Yeah, Good Friday was always much more somber, quiet.

That's the reflective. Yeah, that's the reflective portion.

So you would, like. You would come in and it were. It was generally, for us, it was a communion service. So they were, like. I can still picture it.

They would always have a long table on the stage with all, like, the communion set out, like the Last Supper kind of scene. And then, yeah, there would be a. Like, a big emotional message around communion, but it was always this sense of. Of this is really serious.

And, like, this isn't. This is not a fun time. This is to remember everything. But then there will be little moments of. But Sunday is coming.

Yes.

Just to, like, make sure you're back here on Sunday.

Yeah.

Because, you know, this is not where the story ends.

Yeah.

And so there was already that kind of indication that the whiplash was coming. And it was just two days. That's it. But we also had a lot around Silent Saturday, so that kind of in between.

So even when you weren't in a service, it was expected that like, on the Saturday would also be a really active time.

Yeah.

Yes. It was heavy. Like, Good Friday just felt heavy and dark and reflective.

Yeah. I've never heard Saturday referred to as Silent Saturday, but when we very much had the same mentality that you.

You weren't actually able to celebrate or, like, be able to, like, bask in the victory of what was happening until Sunday came.

So, like, you had to stay in mourning, so to speak, and in, like, a space of, like, you know, personal responsibility and reflection for the two days. And you only get one day of celebration, which feels rude. It does feel rude, but, like, just that.

That transition from, like, you know, sitting in, like, the weight of, like, brutality and death and sin, and again, like, conjuring all of that imagery through music, through, like, visuals and movies and things that you would watch in church, to then, like, two days later, you're now, like, in victory and celebration. And there's, like, if you.

If.

I mean, your church, there would have probably been confetti. So.

Yeah. Literally, confetti guns.

Yeah. So, like, the polarization of those two extremity emotions, like, we're not, like, built for that.

Like, we are not supposed to be able to feel that in the extremity way that we were supposed to every single year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that. That. And again, I, like, I wonder if it was kind of just so expected that people would not meant to process emotion like they were. That was.

That was not okay. So of course you should be able to feel really sad and guilty and shameful one day, and then two days later, you should be over that.

Like, you should now be ready to celebrate because this is now the new reality.

Yeah.

So that, like, there's no time to even sit with how you were really feeling or process it or integrate it before you completely switch. And now it's a party.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so then, like, I mean, what were you taught about, like, in terms of if you were experiencing, like, oh, I don't know, just, like, real human emotions as someone existing in life, like, I imagine you probably were taught much the same as me, which is like, squash it down. This is not about you. And so you just learn to override the actual feelings that you are experiencing.

Like, I don't know if you had, like, a fight with your parents or with a friend or just, like, normal human experiences, and then you had to conjure, like, other emotions over Good Friday. And then because of the way the weekend goes, you then have to supply. Suppress those emotions and feel completely different ones by Easter Sunday.

Yeah. It's not fun, it's ridiculous.

And you like Easter as it is, can be a really tricky time, just with family and general life stuff and very similar to you.

So you would, you would show up and if you were not, especially on the Sunday, if you were not ready to celebrate and have all the hype and be like, completely euphoric, basically, you were kind of allowed to feel a little bit of the grief from Friday, but only as long as it intensified the joy for Sunday. So you could kind of have a little bit of a reflective moment, but only if it was going to benefit how you.

You were expected to feel for a majority of the time. And don't even bring in the fact that something's going on in your personal world because, like, how dare you? This is not about you.

And you just need to have more faith and trust that God's going to take care of that. Like, you're here to focus on him, not on you.

Yeah. Unless it's something that you need to confess, in which case go for your life.

Oh, yeah. Then you can.

Yes.

Then you can read repent in case you get hit by a bus when you, you leave the service.

Yeah, exactly. I, I didn't actually, like, fair war.

This is not even what I sent you, but it just made me think because, like, when you would walk in on Easter Sunday, like, the stock standard response was like, either oh, happy day, or like, God is good, essentially, like that was. And if you didn't have the right response.

Response, and if you don't know what the right response to that is, then we're very different upbringings because all the time. Yes, exactly.

All the time. God is good.

Exactly. I'm so glad you finished that sentence. But I mean, the flip side of that is that.

And I don't know about you because, like, it might not have been the same, but social media was a time at Easter because, like, you were being watched in person at Easter services. But also if you didn't.

Well, if I didn't post something on social media about Good Friday and about Easter Sunday, then, like, was I really experiencing the wealth of emotion that I was supposed to? And did I really care about growing the kingdom of God? Yeah.

It would be on your social media again, so that you could influence other people to be able to see that and potentially come to a service? Or like, it was. Another part of the recruitment was if this is not your center of focus for every part of your life.

Yeah.

Again, like, let's repent because something's gone wrong.

Social media Ministry.

Yeah. And I mean that like that also was part of the surveillance was watching. How are you speaking on social media?

How are you talking about events that are coming up? Are you talking about them enough?

I remember I posted a, like it was just a photo that I took on Easter Sunday morning before I went to church. And it wasn't even in the. I wasn't in the outfit I was wearing to church because I knew that I wouldn't be able to wear said outfits. Church.

It had shoe. Shoe string straps. No, not at all.

But I took the photo because like it was a warm day and I was at home and it was beforehand and I actually think I took the photo on the Saturday but I posted it on the Sunday and, and I remember I wrote this, this beautiful reflective caption that went with this post and I still had someone say that I needed to change the photo with the post because it was a confusing representation of, of like ministering to people because I was wearing something that was not modest and yet I was talking about the good news of the Lord and I, and I was like, oh really? Also I just looked really good in that photo. So I was really mad.

Yes. Why would you want to take that down?

I didn't, I didn't take you.

How do you find Easter now with Facebook memories?

Oh, I, for probably a few years I was really like specific at looking at my Facebook memories in general because my social media ministry didn't like solely was not solely focused on Easter. It was an all year round job for me.

Oh yeah, of course. It should be absolutely faithful Christians.

Yeah. Fight the good fight.

But for a good few years I would, I would look at it and it would be either cringe worthy or like it would be like disturbing or something like that.

And now I don't look at it as much sometimes if I feel like I like if I need a, like a giggle because some of the things that I said were just like disgustingly cringe. I don't usually look at it at Easter and I don't usually look at it in the 12 days before Christmas because I used to pro.

I used to post the biblical 12 day advent that I would do every year. And so they're the two times that I very strategically don't look at my Facebook memories because it's not a fun time.

And when we're already feeling like remembering that in our body, we don't always need additional reminders.

No, not at all. And, and I think it's. Sometimes I find that hard because it reminds me of there were parts of Easter that weren't lovely.

Like, it was the time of the year where, other than Christmas, but probably more so, actually, because everybody kind of just does their own family stuff at Christmas, but at Easter, it's like, big community. We would have Easter lunch together, and, like, there would be all sorts of community stuff happening that weekend.

And you felt that real sense of belonging the most at Easter. I felt. And so I see those Facebook memories, and I will see, like, like, photo memories of, like, leading worship and things like that as well.

And it's hard because of, like, the stuff that it's connotated with and that it's matched with, but also because, like, some of it was actually really nice. And that's the hardest part, I think.

Yeah. Because we don't. We don't always get to keep the nice parts when it's so intertwined.

Yeah, absolutely. When I wrote this question for you, I was like, oh, I have an answer for this, but I don't know what Elisa's answer is going to be for this.

Okay.

Do you think that there is, like, this harm was in the story itself or how it was used?

I. Okay. So as someone who studied theology and taught it. Yeah.

I. Yeah, I think if we're talking about it being taught in the way that we've just talked about in this whole podcast, I can't see a way to make that message anything but shameful and harmful. And so I. Yeah, I think it's.

It's the message itself that is harmful, and when it is, like, weaponized very strategically, it just does so much damage. But I can't see how you don't weaponize a message like that.

No, no.

That took me a long time to get to that point.

Yeah.

No, when I was writing this question and the one that I'll ask next, I was like, I think that we're going to be aligned on these answers, but it's also like, a pretty. It's a pretty. Like, it's a controversial take, essentially, because, like, we are very conscious that there are some people.

And to be fair, the people listening to this podcast are probably not the people who hold this story dear to them, because I say probably too many in these episodes that those people are not listening to my.

They're gone already.

They're long gone. So. So. But we are very conscious and understanding that, like, this story holds deep value and meaning for a lot of people. But I. I would agree.

I think the harm is in the story and the way that it's used. I Don't think that separating either of those things. I think it's harmful. It's either harmful or it isn't.

I think realistically, like, it's either manipulative or it's not.

Not. And I doesn't help that.

No.

You can have the best intentions. It's still.

Absolutely. And I would, and I feel almost nervous to say this next sentence just on the off chance that someone actually does.

But I would challenge someone to present a way that this message would not be seen as harmful, irrespective of how it's being used or the intent behind it. Which led me to the question of, like, do you think there is an Easter message that could come across in a non coercive way?

Yes. So I, I sat for probably. Yeah. Probably the whole two years that I was questioning.

Yeah.

I sat with, can this be a non harmful message?

Yeah.

Like, is it just the way that the church has done it? Is it just the way Pentecostals have done it?

Yeah.

And so I kind of went through a, like a whole lot of different ways and none of them came out being good.

What I have personally landed on is that Easter for me, if it means anything in terms of, like, if we look at the biblical story of Easter, then what I am comfortable with at the moment, and I say that because it's changed many times for me over the last six years.

Yeah.

Is looking at it as a human story of an unjust execution and maybe the larger story arc of power overriding vulnerability and marginalized people. And that doesn't even have to be a literal thing that happened.

Yeah.

So that's kind of where I sit to go.

That's the only way that I could see this story being used in a way that does not have harm and shame and doesn't give power to people who already have power.

Yeah. Your response is far more kind and far more, far more palatable than my response is going to be.

I'm gonna go now.

Unsurprising to absolutely no one, I suspect.

I just like, I, and I typed out my response because I was like, I actually just don't know how I would answer this off the cuff, but I, I just can't get behind. And I don't think that I would ever be able to see a story centered on a blood sacrifice for humanity as anything other than coercive.

I, I again, I would challenge anybody to like convince me that a blood sacrifice for humanity past, present and future is anything but coercive when the core message of what we have been taught the Easter story is. And it is certainly not just in our flavors of religion.

It is far beyond that that someone had to be brutally murdered on your behalf as a divine requirement. It feels and will always feel inherently manipulative to me. That what it is. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I, I just, I.

The idea that there is this moral debt that can never be repaid is just. I don't. I can't see that as ever not being a coercive story at, like, at its core architecture of that story.

Irrespective of where it's being said, who is saying it, like, the story itself. I don't see that as anything but coercive. And I don't think that I could find a way that it wouldn't be.

I love that you sort of, like, stripped it back completely and found something. So I love that.

And I think what I think what I did is I took any kind of theology out of it.

Yeah.

Because any. Any kind of substitute theology where this had to happen for this to happen is going to be coercive.

Yeah.

There's no doubt. So for me, if I.

And like, this is me imagining that I pick up the Bible having no preconceived indoctrination or ideas about what it is of going, oh, that really sucked. That they, like, they executed someone who was innocent.

Yeah.

And all of the other stuff around it that, like, that is the coercive parts.

Right.

Of going, this is why this happened. Instead of, like, this guy created a scene and people were saying he was going to get power, so he was killed.

Yeah.

But when we add the theology that goes. And this is why.

Yes.

And this is what it means for you. And now you're a piece of. Because this had to happen. You cannot make.

Like, I would be with you if someone can tell us how that is not coercive or harmful. Like, I'm up for the fight. I haven't done a theology argument in a long time.

I feel like we might have set ourselves up, but again, I don't think those people are listening to this episode, so. But by all means, we'll hit us up. We'll take it on. And also, I'm also.

And this is probably just like an extension of that, which is that I'm also a little bit done with just like, like sanitizing my own reaction to these sorts of things. Like, I did that for far too long. Like, longer than I. Than half of my life of being alive is. And so I'm pretty. I'm pretty done with that.

So like, if you love the Easter story, I love that for you.

And I don't know, now you're nicer.

Yeah.

And I actually, I don't love that then either.

No, I love that they think they love that, but I don't love that for them. I wish that they didn't have to think that a blood sacrifice was needed for their moral redemption. But I'm also not.

I. I'm just like, not about sanitizing mine or anybody else's reaction to, like, the horror that is the Easter story. So.

And like we both talk about so often, it comes down to the fact that to believe this message, you have to believe that you are broken and bad and need redemption and that. How do you make that non coercive?

I'm. I'm feeling hopeful this year.

I was, like, feeling slightly more activated after this conversation.

No, not. I don't think so. Like, we'll see.

Give me a couple of hours to figure out how my body's actually feeling because, you know, dissociation still works for us.

This year will be my husband's first year not being in church at Easter, so it'll be our first Easter just being able to do whatever we want to do and not having our Easter weekend dictated by services and events and pressure. So I think that's. I think I'm looking forward to it because we have zero plans.

Amazing.

And that's. That's nice. And if I want to just work or study or sit down and do Lego or read a book, I can. And I can do that with, like, zero guilt.

Nice.

Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think I'm looking forward to Easter. I'm also going to avoid my Facebook memories, so that's good advice.

Yep. Signs. I. I don't. I typically dread Easter every year. It's not a time even if I don't leave the house and see any sort of, like, paraphernalia around.

I typically just.

And you know, people who understand trauma will, like, understand, like, trauma memory, irrespective of, like, you don't always need a visual trigger. And so I typically don't love Easter anyway. I kind of dread going into it.

But this year, the two main things that are going to center ironically, my Good Friday and Easter Sunday, which just feels really lovely.

Wow.

Is that on Good Friday, I'm going to be recording with one of my favorite women about Christian fundamentalism, which sounds like a really great way to spend my Good Friday.

Wow.

And then on my Easter Sunday, I'm gonna be doing a spicy book club, which also sounds really great, so.

Yes, it does, because I'll be there.

Exactly. So I just. I love that, like, not.

Not only am I not doing the things that I would have always done, and I'm also not just sitting around, like, trying not to feel shitty about Easter or, like, just like, just trying to, like, regulate and ground and be okay with, like, I don't need to feel guilty anymore. I don't need to feel any of these things.

And, like, reframing it, I'm actively doing the opposite of what I would have always done, which kind of just feels like a giant fucking you to Easter this year, which kind of feels good.

Yeah. And it kind of sounds not as exhausting as sitting around trying to ground and be okay.

No, not at all. It's great. So that's going to be a good time. And also an abundance of chocolate and hot cross buns, as usual.

Yes, yes. Buns as we know.

Oh, Okay. I hope other people have landed with the end of this conversation in a place of validation and not activation, but I hope that in any sense that.

That people feel heard in just how we were all a little bit up over Easter. It is not just you. We are all there with you.

And maybe like, you know, comment on the social media, like the most up Easter song that you like, hate the most. Like, hit us up with all of those. Those lovely recommendations that we will absolutely not listen to. Thanks for joining me, Elise.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes. As always, you are good. You. You have always been good, and your story matters always.