Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 20 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

Listen on as I continue my chat with Professor Ross White. He's the Research Director of the Doctorate in Clinical Psychology at Queen's University Belfast and an expert in Global Mental Health. He was also lead author on a book called Acceptance and Commitment Approaches for Athletes' Wellbeing and Performance, The Flexible Mind.

In this episode we dive into the book, starting with my review and then continuing with an exploration of the collaborative development of the key messages in the book, his hopes for the book and what else he's got in the pipeline. We finish with Ross' takeaways which are beautifully expressed and very useful.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• The Flexible Mind - FREE Session Guides.pdf - Google Drive
• The Flexible Mind website to accompany the book!
• Strive 2 Thrive Consultancy - led by Ross White
• Strive 2 Thrive on Facebook
• June Issue of the '5 to Thrive' Newsletter
• Ross at Queen's University Belfast
• Commit and ACT - Sierra Leone
• Connect with Ross on Instagram
• Follow Ross on twitter

Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast

Leave a review as a WhatsApp voicenote on +0034696636487

Ross' new website

Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE

Ross on Twitter

People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life

People Soup Page on Facebook

And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn

PART 2

[00:00:07] Ross White: I see the flexible mind approach as, a helpful and beneficial approach in its own right, which I'm really excited to work with other organizations and practitioners around. And I also see it as a vehicle, a vehicle, to really enhance awareness around the importance of balancing those opportunities to develop performance and sustain wellbeing.

[00:01:08] Ross Mc: As well as being an expert in global mental health. He's also an author and was the lead on a book called Acceptance and Commitment Approaches for Athletes Wellbeing and Performance, the Flexible Mind. and that will be our focus for today.

[00:01:49] Ross Mc: Newsletter, which is an essential rate. [00:02:00] People Super is in award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you Glo to work a bit more often.

[00:02:28] Ross Mc: He's amazing. I subscribed to his Five to Thrive newsletter and it's so interesting and helpful. He definitely has quite the sexy speaking voice too, but best not put that in the review. Oh, sorry. Aan, who continued to say, can't wait for the second episode.

[00:03:07] Ross Mc: You might help someone else get insights to help them glow to work.

[00:03:18] Ross Mc: I really want to dive into your work with, Athletes And your book, acceptance and Commitment Approaches for Athletes Wellbeing and Performance, the Flexible Mind. We've talked in part one about your motivation for this in our intersection between psychology and your interest in sports. But I thought what I might do is just start with a little review of the book, if I may.

[00:03:48] Ross Mc: The flexible mind approach was created by world-leading experts in psychology and sports science, and it truly meets the sports person where they are. for me, it really makes the behavioral science [00:04:00] accessible, practical, and useful. Adopting that incremental growth approach to support the athletes in developing new perspectives and habits.

[00:04:33] Ross Mc: I love the pod approach and the emphasis on workability. And for the listeners, the pod approach is being the P is being present, the O is being open, and the D is doing what matters. So hats off to you all. I'm so glad this book is out there. And for the listeners as well as the book, there are, hang on a sec.

[00:04:56] Ross Mc: That's the, that's the word I was looking for as well as the book. Thank you, Ross. There are free session guides to support people in introducing the flexible mind approach to athletes, so that's really generous of you as the authors and the publishers to, to do that and to make it accessible because I think that does give a really nice introduction and framework to the stages of the approach and how we can best support athletes using behavioral science.

[00:05:27] Ross White: Well, thank you for the warm words. It's always interesting to see how this lands for, for people and, um, yeah. It, it's been great to get it out there and, um, The book is published by Palgrave, and it's part of what's called the Springer Link, collection. So if you're part of an academic institution or an organization that holds that institutional license for, Springer Link, you can download the PDF of the book [00:06:00] for free.

[00:06:30] Ross White: There's audio files of some of the exercises and strategies that, feature and the book that people can use and have access to. So we were very keen to make sure that people could access it and could use it. It's there to be used and we wanted to ensure that there weren't barriers or blocks.

[00:07:11] Ross Mc: And how did you conceptualize the, the approach in the book? Because as I said in my review, I really think you meet the athletes where they are. You, you really perceptually put yourselves in their position and then maybe their skepticism, the what's in it for me. I think you really do address that in the way it's written and structured.

[00:07:47] the package - team effort - evidence

[00:07:58] Ross White: and having [00:08:00] a range of different athletes feature in some of the case studies that feature in the book. And also the practitioners having recognition that this could be a resource that's useful for sports psychologists, mental health practitioners, coaches to use, to support the athletes. so just being flexible and how we envisaged this work on flexibility, playing out with athletes.

[00:08:54] Ross Mc: I think it's important to have a chapter like that available. There'll be some people who might be more skeptical and the evidence might be the, the kind of tipping point for them that, okay, I can now fully engage with this. I think some people will just naturally go bring it on.

[00:09:19] Ross White: Yeah, and it's also a call for further research as well. so it's going to be important moving forward to evaluate the flexible mind approach more and, um, to do other work, really to ensure that we're developing it further and being responsive to some of the, the feedback that we get in relation to it as well.

[00:09:51] Ross White: Yeah, Andy Bethell and I had, worked together at the University of Liverpool. I was fortunate to supervise [00:10:00] Andy's doctoral research, which was looking at psychological flexibility in the context of, football. and, uh, his project, was great to be involved in. And many of the ideas that, came into the book, were through conversations with Andy.

[00:10:45] Ross White: And Lewis Charnock sports psychologist working at Everton Football Club. So again, I was fortunate to have connection with Luis during that time and, like-minded people with different perspectives coming together. We worked really well as a team and all have fun memories of some of those writing camps where we were all together.

[00:11:23] Ross Mc: And, and how's it landed with the sports communities.

[00:11:53] Ross White: So I'm looking forward to developing those ideas a bit further. And most recently [00:12:00] I am working to develop a group best version of the flexible mind approach. And, that would be, Four session approach, group work, but then combined with some individual sessions at the end of the group so that this can be really tailored to the, athlete's individual values so that we have, um, more of a hybrid sort of mixed approach where there's group work followed up with one-to-one session so that we can plan for how things are gonna move forward.

[00:12:50] Ross Mc: what would your ambition be for the, the flexible mind approach? You've talked about developing the, the group-based, um, intervention, but

[00:12:57] Ross White: I see the flexible mind approach as, a helpful and beneficial approach in its own right, which I'm really excited to work with other organizations and practitioners around. And I also see it as a vehicle, a vehicle, to really enhance awareness around the importance of balancing those opportunities to develop performance and sustain wellbeing.

[00:13:47] Ross Mc: And I think that that's fundamental to the, to the message of the book, that these are not mutually exclusive. You can have a really high performance and look after your own wellbeing. [00:14:00] And as you're talking about yourself before the, the rest and the recovery and the connections with others, that can still take place.

[00:14:07] Ross White: Exactly. Sustainability is the key element here that we're really bringing through so that it's not this boom and bust. Approach where yes, people go all out and excel, but it's at the cost of their wellbeing and it's not something that they can maintain in the longer term. So a sustainable approach to high performance living.

[00:14:37] Ross White: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Strive to Thrive is the clinical psychology consultancy organization that I'm the director of, and we're based in the, in Northern Ireland, but working across the uk. it delivers training, delivers one-to-one work to support individuals, uh, delivers group-based, uh, support as well.

[00:15:25] Ross White: Strive to thrive the organization. Flexible mind, the approach, one of the approaches that we use in the work, depending on what the requirements of the clients are.

[00:15:43] Ross Mc: and what's, what's in the pipeline. Any other things that you can share with us? Yeah. Torres.

[00:16:13] Ross White: I'm also writing a book at the moment. and the manuscript, needs to be delivered, uh, by November of this year. So very much, got my eyes down and doing writing around that project, so I can't say too much about that at this stage. But, uh, watch this space and, um, I think it's fair to say that it will be developing ideas related to the flexible mind approach.

[00:16:48] Ross Mc: Hmm. Exciting. We'll have to get you back on when that, that lands.

[00:17:26] Ross Mc: So you, you continue in your mission to make this accessible for, for different audiences, whether it's those who are in a refugee status situation, whether it's athletes, whether it's those delivering interventions to athletes.

[00:17:42] Ross Mc: Uh, super to hear about this. And how do you find, because this is a real personal question for me, but how do you find introducing elements from compassion focused therapy to.

[00:18:15] Ross Mc: But, ha ha. Have you had any insights on that?

[00:18:43] Ross White: It lands well, it, it feels relevant for people. And compassion. Uh, yeah. I can see that some people may fall into a misconception of assuming that in some way that's soft or, or too gentile. Uh, particularly in worlds where, concepts like mantle, toughness and grit are, are prioritized. but sometimes the tough stuff is the compassionate stuff, right?

[00:19:40] Ross White: So, you know, what is, what is compassion? Well, it's being able to empathize. So to recognize that, there may be some difficult emotions in play and it's an intention to engage in behaviors that can potentially [00:20:00] resolve some of that emotional difficulty. So both the empathy and the intention to bring about some change.

[00:20:26] Flexibility

[00:20:43] Ross White: Yeah, it's great that you're picking up on that. it really important that to recognize that everybody likes to think that they're flexible and, uh, yeah. Flexibility has different meanings. so important to emphasize that psychological flexibility is not about being accommodating and being able to be a little pragmatic and a little spontaneous and go with the flow and, You know, that can be an element of psychological flexibility, but sometimes psychological flexibility is about sticking to your guns, if that's what the context requires.

[00:21:59] Ross White: [00:22:00] And that's where the pod of psychological flexibility comes in P for being present in this space and in this time, even though you may wish to transport yourself somewhere else, being open, which is about recognizing that our mind is a story generating machine that we can get hooked by. And being willing to make space for the strong emotions that can show up with those stories and then do what matters.

[00:22:46] Ross Mc: Me. I don't think I've ever heard that put so beautifully, Ross, and it's superpower. That question around flexibility led to a takeaway. I would say that's, that's an amazing takeaway for our listeners,

[00:22:59] Ross Mc: and, and Ross, I wonder if you've got any, any additional takeaway. Of course, I would en strongly encourage all the p supers to subscribe to the newsletter. And again, the link will be in the show notes. But, but any other reflections for our listen.

[00:23:41] Ross White: We can lose sight of who we really are and what matters to us, and it doesn't need to be that way. We can excel and feel well. Those don't need to be mutually exclusive, and that psychological flexibility is, I think, a key ingredient to that.[00:24:00] It can really help us to develop from being one trick ponies to horses that can thrive on many courses. And I hope that the listeners will be interested enough to learn more about Psychological Flexibility Day and the difference that it can make for them.

[00:24:40] Ross Mc: And yeah, thank you so much.

[00:24:47] Ross Mc: And I just wanted to just say I'm a bit jealous too, cuz people often say, oh Ross, you've got such a relaxing voice. You've got a great voice for podcasts, y yada yada yada. And I think you've outdone me, man. I think you've knocked off my crown.

[00:25:11] Ross Mc: Oh, well maybe, maybe at a future conference we can have a bit of a sing off.

[00:25:19] Ross Mc: What have I said right there it is. It's out there folks. That's it. Pup's part two in the bag. Thanks so much to Ross for the work he does, the impact he has with his research, his books, and his other initiatives. you'll find all the useful links in the show notes. Also, remember last week Ross talked about commit and act their work in Sierra Leone.

[00:26:08] We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:26:33] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:27:04] Ross White: Brilliant. Thank you. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm really tough that you asked me to be part of it. I've been a big admirer of the work that you've been doing and yeah. Curiosity to you for continuing to, uh, invest in this and to see it doing so well. It's brilliant.