Quality relationships are one of the most powerful — and overlooked — drivers of long-term health. In this Goalchella episode, we explore the softer side of wellness with Dr. Lisa, breaking down the science of how relationships impact our physical, emotional, and psychological well-being across the lifespan.

We discuss research showing how supportive friendships, family bonds, and romantic relationships influence everything from immune function to stress resilience. Dr. Lisa shares insights from her work on romantic relationships and marriage, including how happy couples manage conflict, support one another effectively, and strengthen their connection during the good times — not just the hard ones.

This episode dives into concepts like capitalization, gratitude, emotional capital, and sacrifice, explaining why how and why we show up for our partners matters just as much as what we do. We also unpack how everyday stressors quietly erode relationship quality, why daily hassles can be more damaging than major life events, and how couples can buffer stress and even grow stronger through adversity.

We close with an important conversation about friendship — why diverse social networks protect our health, how friendship dynamics differ for men and women, and why maintaining friendships alongside romantic relationships matters more than we think.

If your 2026 goals include deeper connection, this episode will reshape how you think about relationships as a core pillar of wellness.

Links/Research Articles:

https://sites.utexas.edu/realproject/

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If you've ever wondered how some

relationships stay strong through

2

life's ups and downs, and why

others sometimes don't, you're

3

going to love our guest today.

4

She's a researcher and expert on marriage

and family relationships, a professor of

5

human development and family sciences at

the University of Texas at Austin, and the

6

principal investigator of the relationship

experiences across the lifespan lab.

7

Her research focuses on identifying

the factors that promote stable, happy

8

marriages across many life stages.

9

And how external stressors work,

pressure, finances, caretaking, major life

10

changes, all affect relationship dynamics

and real people, not just theories.

11

In today's episode, we're breaking

down what relationship science

12

really tells us about connection,

conflict, and resilience.

13

So you can start applying

it to your own partnerships.

14

Dr.

15

Lisa Neff.

16

Welcome to Wellness Exists the pod.

17

Kelsy: As someone who has been in the

physical health and wellness space

18

for so long, I've recently become

more and more interested on what I

19

call the softer side of wellness.

20

And your research falls under

that softer side umbrella for me.

21

So how do.

22

Things like relationships

and quality relationships

23

actually affect our health and

24

Lisa: wellness.

25

Absolutely.

26

So research shows that our social

relationships, both friends,

27

romantic, all those social network

members have profound impacts on

28

both our mental and physical health.

29

So I'll start with our

emotional wellbeing.

30

Research shows that if you ask

people how satisfied you are in life.

31

The way people answer that question

is by figuring out how satisfied

32

are they in their relationships.

33

Relationships matter more than work than

hobbies, than all those other things.

34

It is the strongest predictor

of life satisfaction.

35

And interestingly, when you look at adult

relationships, generally the romantic

36

relationship sort of is on the pedestal.

37

It is one of the most

important relationships that

38

people have in adulthood.

39

Be it married or cohabiting,

whatever that looks like.

40

And research has shown that marital

satisfaction and its association

41

with life satisfaction has gotten

stronger over the past 40 years.

42

Meaning that our happiness in our

marriage matters more to our wellbeing

43

today than it did even 40 years ago.

44

But it doesn't just influence

our mental health, it influences

45

our physical health as well.

46

So there's a lot of research on

all the ways our relationships

47

can both benefit us.

48

And get under the skin

and cause problems for us.

49

to just give a couple of broad examples,

a few years ago some researchers did a

50

meta-analysis and all that is, is they

aggregated findings from a whole bunch of

51

different studies that had been conducted

looking at predictors of mortality.

52

And they were looking at all the

things that have been studied.

53

So they were looking at, you know,

smoking behaviors and physical inactivity

54

and air pollution, you know, all

these different factors we know can

55

have health consequences for people.

56

And they were also looking

at social relationships.

57

And what they found in this massive

summary of the literature was

58

that the quality of our social

relationships mattered more.

59

Then all the other factors they studied.

60

So people who had at least adequate

social relationships were 50% more

61

likely to still be alive at the end of

the study compared to people who didn't.

62

And the strength of that effect of

social relationships on wellbeing was

63

stronger than things like physical

activity, inactivity and obesity,

64

and those things that we know matter.

65

So this suggests that our health.

66

Our relationships matter

a lot for our health.

67

However, we have to make sure that

those relationships are good, right?

68

We know that not all relationships

are the same and a toxic relationship

69

or a really hostile relationship

can really have some important

70

health consequences for us as well.

71

So in a great set of studies that

was done, uh, by Janice Kolt Glaser

72

at Ohio State a number of years ago.

73

They did work where they basically

took this device, you could think of

74

it as like the size of a smartphone,

and you put it on the forearm of people

75

and it created eight little blisters.

76

So they actually wounded participants.

77

They then had these participants

who were couples talk about

78

important issues in their marriage.

79

They coded those conversations for

the quality of that communication.

80

How well were couples

talking about their problems?

81

Were they using constructive

positive forms of communication

82

or were they using more hostile

critical forms of communication?

83

And what they found was that the

wounds, those blisters, they created

84

the wounds of the people who used

more hostile communication with

85

their partner healed 40% slower.

86

Then the wounds of the people who

had more constructive forms of

87

communication, which suggests the

quality of our relationship matters.

88

It's not just being in a relationship,

but being in a high quality relationship

89

that can have beneficial effects for

our immune functioning and being in a

90

negative relationship can have harmful

effects on our immune functioning

91

Kelsy: I feel like my jaw's on the floor.

92

That's so cool.

93

Especially relating the.

94

Again, like I say, the softer side and

that's definitely not scientific at all

95

or anything, but I pictured as a softer

side relating back to the physical, I

96

am curious when they did that study,

were the couples together speaking

97

was one partner hearing the hostile.

98

Communication from the other?

99

Or was it, were they

individually talking about it?

100

Lisa: No, they were having a

conversation with each other.

101

Wow.

102

So they were set up in a room,

sort of like we're in now.

103

Mm-hmm.

104

And they were told to think of an

important issue in their relationship

105

and talk about it with each other.

106

And usually the instructions are with the

goal of trying to work Twitter resolution.

107

And so then the researchers generally

leave the couple alone and videotape them

108

as they communicate through that issue.

109

So you can see what their communication

dynamics are in real time.

110

Kelsy: So piggybacking off of that

a little bit, what has the research

111

shown are some of the qualities

or characteristics that underlie

112

strong romantic relationships?

113

Lisa: There are so many, right?

114

I teach an entire course at

this, at ut I could spend a

115

whole semester talking about it.

116

But, you know, piggybacking off

those ideas of good communication.

117

The way that couples resolve conflicts

and the way that couples support each

118

other are really important predictors.

119

You know, being able to navigate

those situations so, conflict.

120

Is inevitable.

121

No relationship is immune to conflict.

122

Unless you have paired off with a perfect

clone of yourself, there's going to be a

123

moment where you and your partner disagree

or you want different things, and you're

124

gonna have to work through that, process.

125

And so the ways that we approach

conflict are really important.

126

You know, the couples who struggle

more have problems diffusing

127

negativity when it arises.

128

Obviously we want to try to focus on

more constructive ways of talking about

129

our perspective and, you know, the

problem and the way it's affecting us

130

when we're talking with our partner.

131

But if, we all have.

132

Less than perfect moments.

133

Even me as a relationships researcher

don't always phrase things in the

134

most, you know, constructive way.

135

And so in those moments of

negativity, happy couples are

136

really good at diffusing them.

137

So if one person engages in a negative

or hostile speaking turn, the other

138

partner doesn't reciprocate it, right?

139

They bring the tone down and try

to, um, minimize that negativity.

140

Unhappy couples.

141

It's like ping pong.

142

They go back and forth in that negativity,

and once they get in a cycle of

143

negativity, they can't break that cycle.

144

It just becomes a cycle

of negative reciprocity.

145

So, you know, trying to

avoid those cycles is one.

146

there's also been some

interesting research on.

147

Learning how to pick your

battles, but also not suppressing

148

your emotions too much.

149

There's sort of, a fine line in terms of

dealing with problems in the relationship.

150

Research shows that sometimes avoiding

confronting your partner on something

151

has more harmful consequences for you

in terms of rumination and wellbeing

152

than just having the argument itself

you don't want to just continually

153

stuff down your feelings and suppress

your feelings talking to your partner.

154

And again, trying to use a

more constructive approach

155

is going to be more helpful.

156

But also, making sure that you're

choosing the right time and the right

157

moment to bring those issues up.

158

And there's research that

shows that as we get older.

159

People get better at that.

160

They get better at picking their battles.

161

They get better at knowing when to engage

and when to maybe make sure you're in

162

the right frame of mind to approach

that conversation in a constructive way.

163

That's

164

Kelsy: something I

165

Lisa: had to

166

Kelsy: learn about myself in my

ripe old marriage of seven years.

167

But it's, it's that constant

balance of yeah, how much is too

168

much where I'm not suppressing

and how much is, you know, like.

169

Uh, petty or like you said, not

being able to choose your battles

170

and just bringing everything up.

171

So it's this constant sort of balance

and it's good to know that throughout

172

time you start to pick up on those

sorts of things with your partner.

173

Absolutely.

174

You also mentioned support too.

175

Yes.

176

So

177

Lisa: talk a little bit about that.

178

So, if you think about traditional wedding

vows, you know, what are they about?

179

Like, you're my person

for better or for worse.

180

You are my support, foundation

and support's a really important

181

part of a relationship.

182

However, being a good support

provider is one of the hardest

183

things to do in a relationship.

184

If you really break it down and think

about what it takes to be a good support

185

provider, first you have to notice

when your partner needs support and.

186

That's not always easy to do.

187

'cause sometimes we're not always good

about directly asking for what we need.

188

You know, we're more likely to give

those indirect cues, and hope that our

189

partner picks up that, oh, I wanted

you to unload the dishwasher, right?

190

So, to be a good support provider,

you have to be in tune and know

191

that your partner wants support.

192

Then you have to decide are you gonna

give it, and what kind of support

193

are you gonna give in that moment?

194

Then once you decide on what support

you're gonna give, you have to

195

deliver that support in a way that is

perceived as helpful by your partner.

196

And that last part is key, right?

197

How many times have people

had the best of intentions?

198

They offered their partner support,

but it was not received as such

199

because there are so many ways.

200

That support can go wrong, right?

201

You could possibly misunderstand

the kind of support your

202

partner wants in that moment.

203

the stereotypical one is,

I wanted emotional support.

204

I wanted you to listen, and instead

you gave me practical support

205

and tried to fix the problem.

206

So you have to know what kind

of support is, matching, the

207

recipient's desires in that moment.

208

And there's a lot of research

showing that another reason.

209

even well-intended support can misfire

is that when people get support, it

210

can often make them feel incompetent

or lower, their self-worth because

211

they're aware that they're not able

to handle their own problems, and

212

so they need help from someone else.

213

So interestingly, some research

has shown that a way to get around

214

that where you can offer support

in a way that won't be perceived

215

as, oh, you think I can't handle.

216

My own issues is to give what's

called invisible support.

217

And I always say that the word

invisible is a bit of a misnomer

218

'cause it's not totally invisible.

219

I would say it's more

like indirect support.

220

So there's research showing that sometimes

the best support is the support that maybe

221

isn't clocked as support by the recipient.

222

So you know, if you're thinking about

practical support, if you have a partner.

223

Who maybe has to give a big speech,

let's say, and they're really

224

nervous preparing for the speech.

225

They're putting a lot of, effort into it.

226

One thing you could do is maybe take care

of some of the chores that they normally

227

do, but don't make a big deal of it.

228

Just do the dishes and

don't call attention to it.

229

So that's why, I mean,

it's more like indirect.

230

You're providing the support, but not

making a big deal of, look what I'm doing

231

at this moment for emotional support.

232

Interestingly.

233

The way invisible support works

there is, let's say your partner

234

gives that speech or is, you know,

nervous about giving that speech.

235

You know, we often wanna say

things like, you're great, you are

236

wonderful, and pump them up that way.

237

But sometimes it can be more

effective if you're like.

238

Remember the last time you gave a

speech, I heard other audience members

239

say that you were so good at it.

240

Like that third party overhearing

where it's more indirect.

241

It's not coming from me, but

it's like other people have said,

242

you're really great at this.

243

So that more indirect way.

244

And when you give that invisible

support, sometimes you can, you make

245

the recipient feel better without making

them conscious of their own limitations.

246

Kelsy: It's interesting hearing you

break down all of this and then thinking

247

back to, you know, different things

that my husband and I have been through

248

or talking through and different

ways that I've tried to support him

249

and have tried to learn and tweak.

250

And it's interesting to hear the, the

different components of it all from

251

your mindset and how you even research

it and how it has been researched.

252

Because I'm resonating so much.

253

I'm like yes, I struggle with

that, or I understand what

254

you're talking about with that.

255

Mm-hmm.

256

It's cool to be able to relate to that.

257

Knowing that's what the science is

saying and what it's providing, but

258

also having these real life examples

in the back of my head of like,

259

that's another approach I could try

next time this happens or something.

260

So it's really, really cool.

261

I know a lot of romantic relationships and

like you said, relationships in general.

262

We experience highs and lows and mm-hmm.

263

Of course we'd all like to stay in that,

that high, those ups part of the equation.

264

So what are some ways that we can.

265

Work on those relationships In

those high moments to help the

266

relationship once we might experience

some of those lower moments?

267

Lisa: There's a lot of things

that people can do to keep what

268

is already a good relationship.

269

Strong.

270

One building off that

idea of social support.

271

There's research suggesting that it's

important not only to support your

272

partner when things go wrong, but

it's really important to support your

273

partner when things go right, and that

is a process known as capitalization.

274

So when you have good moments,

let's say your partner comes home

275

and they just got promoted at work.

276

Research shows that when we experience

those joyful moments, we get a boost

277

in our mood and wellbeing, but that

boost is even bigger when we share

278

that joy with someone else and they

can experience that joy with us.

279

Where social creatures and being

able to share our accomplishments

280

positive moments with someone else

makes that moment even sweeter for us.

281

one way.

282

To be a good support provider.

283

is being there for your partner when

things are going well, when they

284

have good moments, be enthusiastic.

285

Be equally joyful with them.

286

it's not that hard, right?

287

Your partner comes home, they got

a promotion, celebrate with them.

288

That's fantastic.

289

That's wonderful.

290

Like you, you work so hard for this.

291

I'm so proud of you.

292

As opposed to, and this

does happen sometimes saying

293

something like, that's great.

294

That's gonna be a lot more work.

295

Are you sure you can handle it?

296

Right?

297

That kind of response is

going to dampen the joy.

298

You wanna be a good support

provider in the good moments

299

as well as the bad moments.

300

And interestingly, research shows,

you know, we can ask people how

301

supportive do you think your partner is?

302

And you know, people

have an answer to that.

303

when people are sort of reflecting

on instances to decide, do I

304

think my partner is supportive?

305

Often they are thinking of, has my

partner been there for me in the

306

good times more than has my partner

helped me out when I was struggling?

307

It's those capitalization

moments that really matter.

308

So making sure to build on those

moments, be your partner's champion

309

during the good moments, and then even

if you mess up a bit during the bad

310

moments and don't give the right side of

support, you get a little bit of a pass.

311

You're still a supportive

partner in there,

312

Another thing we can do, to help

keep the relationship strong.

313

Is build something known

as emotional capital.

314

So when I talk about emotional capital,

you can think about relationships as

315

having an emotional piggy bank, and

every time you and your partner share

316

a small positive moment, this does

not have to be anything grandiose.

317

It could just be, you know, having

a pleasant meal together, having

318

a, meaningful conversation, doing

a leisure activity together.

319

You know Whatever it may be, those

small positive moments that can seem

320

really simple on the surface add up.

321

Every one of those is like a deposit

in your emotional piggy bank, and that

322

is the building of emotional capital.

323

And it's really important to do that

because research shows that the more

324

emotional capital you have built up in

your piggy bank, the less conflict and

325

problems are harmful to your relationship

when they eventually arise, and they will.

326

You'll come up at some point, but

people who have accumulated more

327

emotional capital, who have invested

more in spending that quality time

328

with their partner as the relationship

goes on when those conflicts arise.

329

They're just not as troublesome.

330

They're able to get through it better.

331

It doesn't affect their overall

relationship happiness to the

332

same degree as people who have

less emotional capital built up.

333

So that is really important for keeping

the relationship strong over time.

334

And just to add on that I will say,

when I'm talking about emotional

335

capital, as I mentioned, it does

not have to be anything grandiose.

336

it can just be simple routine

moments of positivity.

337

But there is also research of as people

are in a relationship longer and longer.

338

Boredom can set in, the routine

can maybe become a little too much,

339

and you have to invest a little

bit more to keep the spark alive.

340

And so investing in those

positive moments still important.

341

But if you see yourself getting

in a, a rut where it starts

342

to feel a little, you know.

343

Boring.

344

Like you, you're, you're sort

of losing the connection.

345

Research shows that engaging in

novel activities together, so

346

things that neither of you have

done together can actually really

347

reinvigorate the relationship.

348

So I don't know if.

349

maybe you go take a ballroom dancing

class or whatever it is, like some

350

activity that is new to both of you.

351

Engaging in those novel activities can

sort of reignite some of that spark.

352

And this has been shown not only

in terms of just general feelings

353

of happiness in the relationship,

but also sexual intimacy and sexual

354

satisfaction in the relationship.

355

It can bring a new energy to the

relationship and help people,

356

keep that energy more alive.

357

In fact, research has shown that that

can be true even if just one person

358

goes out and engages in novel activity.

359

So if I'm in a relationship and maybe

I decide I'm gonna, I don't know, go

360

take a language class or something

new to challenge myself, even though

361

I'm not doing it with my partner,

I'm bringing home sort of a new

362

excitement, new energy that carries

over, and my partner will also be

363

happier in the relationship as well.

364

Kelsy: I have this concept from a physical

component of, I call it the longevity

365

fund, and I think of the longevity

fund as the hydration, the mindfulness,

366

the exercise, little deposits.

367

Mm-hmm.

368

Exactly you're saying with

the emotional component.

369

So it's funny to see this mirrored

and be like, oh my gosh, I understand

370

this component because yes, I.

371

I know whenever I have had an

injury or my patients have had an

372

injury and they have to dip into

what I call this longevity fund.

373

Mm-hmm.

374

More from a physical component.

375

They heal better because of the

muscle mass they've built, the bone

376

marral density, all of the resiliency

factors that they've built physically.

377

But it's very, very cool to hear your

side of it being more of the emotional

378

capital side and that we can actually do

the same thing with our relationships.

379

Coming from the, again,

physical therapy background.

380

I know a lot of my patients also

have a partner who either has.

381

Memory issues or different things

like that so it's very, very cool to

382

me from more of that side of things

to hear that even if one partner.

383

Participates in a novel activity

384

That can help strengthen this relationship

once people start to lose possibly their

385

physical capabilities and they're no

longer able to quilt or sow or whatever,

386

or their mental capacity and their

capabilities and their memory especially.

387

So for me, that's a little bit of a

heartwarming thing to think about.

388

Not only now for younger marriages

and younger relationships, but

389

also thinking more towards my

grandparents' ages and knowing that,

390

they are struggling with physical.

391

Challenges and memory challenges

and all of that, but knowing

392

that you can contribute to that

relationship, even if just one

393

person is doing that novel activity.

394

Lisa: Another way you can strengthen

an already healthy relationship

395

or keep it strong over time is

to make sure throughout your

396

relationship, and this sort of

goes along the lines of being sure.

397

To be a good supportive partner,

but also to express gratitude to

398

one another in the relationship for,

doing little things for each other.

399

Maybe sometimes sacrificing, you know, I

wanted this for dinner, but we'll do it

400

this way 'cause that's what you wanted.

401

But always showing that

appreciation and that gratitude

402

for the little things you do.

403

And research has shown that expressing

gratitude Toward your partner is sort of

404

like a booster shot to the relationship.

405

it gives you a little boost and in some

research, by, a woman named Yin Park

406

that I think is just so fascinating.

407

She was looking at are there better or

worse ways to express that gratitude?

408

You know, if you want to make sure

your partner feels appreciated for

409

the things they do for you, what

is the best way to convey that?

410

And she was really looking

at the difference between.

411

What you can think of as cost,

highlighting expressions or

412

responsiveness highlighting.

413

Expression.

414

So let me give an example.

415

Imagine again, I'm preparing

for this big speech.

416

We'll stick with that scenario and I'm

working really hard and I'm feeling a

417

bit overwhelmed and my partner goes out

to my favorite coffee shop and brings

418

me my coffee, and just sort of brings

it to my desk and is like, here you go.

419

To help you get through this.

420

I wanna express gratitude.

421

One way I could express gratitude

would be by highlighting the cost.

422

It was for my partner to do this.

423

Thank you so much.

424

I know that coffee house is out of

the way for you, so I appreciate you

425

doing that and bringing me this coffee.

426

Another way you can express

gratitude is called responsiveness

427

highlighting, and that is.

428

Thank you so much for

bringing this coffee.

429

This is exactly what I needed

because I need an energy boost

430

to get through my day, and this

coffee's really gonna help me.

431

So it is really highlighting how

what the partner did is helping

432

me and my needs at that moment.

433

And so they were.

434

Wondering which one of those kinds of

gratitude expressions is gonna make

435

the recipient feel most appreciated.

436

And interestingly, I found this a

little surprising 'cause a lot of

437

people, when I teach this in my class,

they all think the cost highlighting,

438

I would've thought the same thing.

439

It's not.

440

It's the responsiveness highlighting

that the recipient felt.

441

More appreciated and happy knowing that

they had met your needs than, if you had

442

just highlighted the cost it was to them.

443

So I thought that was a really

interesting finding and something

444

to keep in your back pocket next

time you wanna express gratitude.

445

Kelsy: I love the little tips and

tricks too, but that is, I totally,

446

I was thinking, I was like, how would

I have expressed it just without

447

even knowing, you know, if my husband

brought me coffee, because that's a.

448

Totally.

449

Something that would work for

me is in helping me prepare.

450

I was like, oh, you know,

the key to my heart.

451

But, um, I definitely would've done a

cost response, I guess, versus a like.

452

Experience, reaction, response for myself.

453

So that's interesting.

454

'cause I would not have thought of that.

455

Moving away from maybe some

of the high moments mm-hmm.

456

And a little more into what your research

is on different daily life stressors

457

that might impact a relationship What.

458

Are some of those daily life

stressors that we might not

459

actually know about and how do those

affect our romantic relationships?

460

Lisa: Absolutely.

461

So something that I think people

really need to keep in mind and.

462

You know, when you hear about what does

it take to keep a relationship strong

463

people are often, like, as I said earlier,

communication and gratitude and all these

464

things, but we're not thinking about our

broader life circumstances that all of

465

those stressors we face outside the home.

466

So.

467

Those stressors we have at work.

468

Maybe it's caring for aging parents.

469

Maybe it's a fight we have with a friend.

470

Maybe it's just getting stuck

in a horrible, Austin traffic,

471

you know, whatever that

stressor is, those stressors.

472

Change our, our mood, our wellbeing,

and we take that home with us and it

473

spills over into our relationship.

474

It's a process known as stress spillover,

that stressors we experience outside

475

the home spill over and affect the way

we think and behave inside the home.

476

And, I'll talk a little bit first

about the way stressors affect us

477

and then I can break it down between

like bigger and daily hassles.

478

But I've done a lot of work on

all the ways stress can interfere

479

with constructive relationships.

480

And basically what stress does is

first it gives us more problems in the

481

relationship that we have to cope with.

482

And second and independently it hinders

our ability to cope with any problems

483

that do crop up in an adaptive fashion.

484

And so let me give

examples of both of those.

485

First, stress gives us more problems

to deal with in the relationship.

486

What the research shows is

that, you know, we all know we

487

only have 24 hours in the day.

488

That is a reality that we all face,

and so every minute that you spend

489

coping with your stressors is a minute.

490

You're not spending

nurturing the relationship.

491

When partners are coping with more work

stress, more life stressors, whatever, you

492

know, financial stressors, whatever the

stressors may be, they're often spending

493

less time building that emotional capital.

494

They're not engaging in

those nurturing activities.

495

People who have more stress report,

having less time with their partner.

496

Again, we only have 24 hours in the day.

497

If you're working late, that is time

you're not spending with your partner.

498

And they report that the limited

time they do have with their

499

partner is less satisfying.

500

Instead of going on that date

night or doing those things

501

to nurture the relationship.

502

When you're faced with a lot of

stress, often the time you're

503

sharing with your partner.

504

Coping with the stress, right?

505

If you have financial difficulties, you're

talking about how to work through that.

506

You're not going on a date

night with each other.

507

And so what, happens when people are

more stressed is they start to feel a

508

little bit more emotionally disconnected.

509

I also have research that shows they're,

physically disconnected as well.

510

This was a study of newlyweds,

and again, newlyweds.

511

They're in the early phases.

512

Everything's usually pretty

unicorns and rainbows.

513

But, uh, I found that even in newlyweds.

514

On days when they had just one

stressor, they were less likely to

515

engage in physical intimacy with

their partner compared to days

516

when they didn't have any stress.

517

So it interferes with that kind of

connection that we have with our partner.

518

But in addition to just creating

more of that disconnect when we're

519

stressed, we have more difficulty

addressing the problems that

520

do crop up in our relationship.

521

If the limited time we

have with our partner.

522

Has to be spent coping with the stressors.

523

Well then maybe we'll be okay.

524

If we can use good communication, right?

525

We can effectively talk through conflict.

526

We can effectively support each other.

527

Stress interferes with all of that.

528

So one thing stress does, I can

sort of walk through a sequence

529

of events when we're stressed.

530

You can think about it as it's a

filter in how we view the world.

531

You know, think about when you're

really stressed out, there's

532

sort of a cloud hanging over you.

533

There's a negativity and that

filter comes home with us.

534

So we found in our research that even

among newlyweds who generally see

535

the best in their partner, they're

more likely to focus on the good

536

and downplay the minor negatives.

537

When they're stressed, partners

are more likely to focus.

538

On each other's negative qualities and

less so on their positive qualities.

539

So if I'm stressed out, I am much more

likely to notice that my partner didn't

540

unload the dishwasher and not to notice

the other good things they did that day.

541

So when we're stressed, it sort of

just colors the way we see things.

542

It negativity stands out more

once we notice that negativity.

543

If we're stressed, we're more likely

to blame our partner for it as opposed

544

to give them the benefit of the doubt.

545

Normally, happy couples when their

partner messes up have a grace, right?

546

they're more likely to be like,

okay, you said you were gonna

547

do this, Erin, you didn't.

548

I know you've got a lot going on.

549

I know this wasn't intentional.

550

We'll deal with it.

551

Versus if I'm stressed.

552

I'm more likely to think, you said

you were gonna do this errand.

553

You didn't.

554

You're an insensitive jerk, right?

555

You did not pull your weight.

556

Today, we're more likely to have that

more blaming interpretation of why

557

they engaged in that negative behavior.

558

And when we try to talk to our

partner about it, we're more

559

hostile in our communication, right?

560

If we're already feeling, I've

noticed these negative things more,

561

I'm blaming you more for them.

562

I'm less constructive in talking

through those problems with my partner.

563

When we do sit down to try

to talk through those issues.

564

And just to really, the cherry on

top of this bad Sunday is we also

565

become worse at being a support

provider when we're stressed.

566

So if we go back to that, you

know, what does it take to

567

be a good support provider?

568

You have to notice your

partner needs support.

569

If I'm stressed.

570

I tend to become more self-focused

as opposed to other focused.

571

So I am less likely to pick up on the

cues that my partner wants support.

572

But let's say my partner's very direct

and they're like, Hey, I need support

573

right now, so I know they want support.

574

Our research also shows that if

I am stressed, even when I know

575

my partner wants support, I'm

less likely to give it, right?

576

I might feel.

577

Overwhelmed, like I don't have any

resources to give, so I'm just less

578

likely to provide support in that moment.

579

And if I do dig deep and try hard to

give that support, the support I give

580

is usually of lower quality, and so

it can really interfere with all these

581

levels of what it takes to keep the

relationship happy and strong over time.

582

Stress can be really

damaging to a relationship.

583

And something that is interesting is

research has looked at, okay, what kinds

584

of stressors are most damaging you can

think about, you know, I've been giving

585

examples of daily hassles, like, you

know, you've had a work deadline or.

586

you got stuck in traffic or whatever

these everyday hassles are that just

587

sort of put a cloud over us versus,

you could also think of major stressors

588

There's been research on natural

disasters, COVID, you know, someone

589

being diagnosed with a serious illness.

590

All of these major stressors and research

has looked to see which has the most

591

consistent effects on relationship.

592

And interestingly, what they find is.

593

Daily hassles have a more

robust, negative effect on

594

relationships than major stressors.

595

And here is why when a major event

happens, you know, an illness, someone's

596

fired from a job, people are very

aware that stressor is happening.

597

there's sort of an.

598

Unspoken rule that your job is to pull

together and try to work through it, and

599

you are aware that you're stressed and

it's gonna be harder to work through it.

600

And so you try to correct and do better

by your relationship during those times.

601

Assuming that you have coping resources

available to help you with the stress,

602

some couples weather that storm, okay?

603

If you don't have coping resources,

then the stress is still gonna be

604

harmful to you, but there's a chance

you can do okay because you're aware

605

of the stress and it's more likely to

mobilize cooperative efforts, mobilize

606

support in the relationship, and

they're gonna try to do more to overcome

607

that stress together daily hassles.

608

Affect you without your awareness.

609

We're not always aware that the

reason I'm so snippy is because I'm

610

grumpy 'cause of traffic, right?

611

we don't make that connection and so

we just behave badly, not recognizing

612

the role that our stress is playing in.

613

Shaping our behavior.

614

And so it's a lot more insidious.

615

It sort of spills over into our

relationship without our awareness,

616

so we're not trying as hard to

correct our behavior in those moments.

617

Does that make sense?

618

Totally.

619

so that's why those daily

hassles can be so harmful to us.

620

Kelsy: The more that I think about it, I

would've thought major life stressors for

621

sure, but the fact that you're more aware

of those, it is more of a teamwork thing.

622

You're like, okay, I understand your.

623

A parent is ill, like,

we have to come together.

624

I know that I'm gonna have to take

care of the home a little bit more.

625

You're gonna have to be there.

626

Mm-hmm.

627

I understand that.

628

Like, now that you say it,

I'm like, oh, well of course.

629

But what about those daily life stressors?

630

Are there things that you

guys have seen that we can do

631

to help buffer that or help.

632

I guess bring awareness to that, to foster

633

Lisa: that teamwork during those times.

634

Yeah.

635

So there, there are, uh, a couple

things, building on this idea of why the

636

major life stressors are less harmful.

637

This idea of awareness is important.

638

So even with daily life stressors.

639

Just knowing about this effect making

sure that you're a little bit more

640

aware of how those everyday hassles

might be influencing you can help

641

because we definitely have research

that shows that when people are more

642

aware of their stress and their.

643

More likely to blame the stress for

the issues they're having, then you

644

don't have that same stress spillover.

645

So if you can just become more aware

of the way those everyday hassles are

646

affecting you, you can work harder to

correct your behavior or at least give

647

your partner a heads up and be like.

648

I had a really rough day.

649

I'm sorry if I'm snippy.

650

I need a moment, and just just

try to diffuse the situation.

651

By the same token, that can be hard

for the stressed out person to do.

652

So I always say to the partner

of the stressed out individual,

653

try to be as gracious as possible

in that moment and know that.

654

Your partner is acting this

way because of their stress.

655

And if you can bite your tongue, don't

engage in negative reciprocity and try to

656

be, a, more supportive, generous person

and, understand they are stressed and

657

give them the space to get through it.

658

Sometimes it can really help for

the partner of the stress individual

659

to diffuse the situation until.

660

The stress subsides.

661

if we can always take turns being

stressed, that's ideal, but I understand

662

it doesn't always work that way.

663

Kelsy: I think Brene Brown has the

concept where, you know, you and your

664

partner say, I'm showing up at 50% today.

665

I feel like that's kind of a nice

external third party view of like,

666

listen, my tank is here today.

667

Exactly.

668

What, is that a helpful

strategy, do you think?

669

For I, I think it would be helpful

absolutely so I know a mantra

670

That always comes to mind for me.

671

Anytime I face a personal challenge,

A relationship challenge is there's

672

light at the end of the tunnel.

673

We always hope that there's

light at the end of the tunnel.

674

So have you guys seen that?

675

Couples that overcome these daily life

stressors situations, or even major

676

life stressors in a productive way.

677

Is their relationship stronger?

678

Is there a light at the end of the

tunnel if they can successfully navigate

679

some of those either minor daily life

stressors or the major life stressors?

680

Lisa: Absolutely.

681

Couples can build a resilience

to the harmful effects of stress.

682

You can think of it as, you know,

practice doesn't make perfect, but

683

practice makes a whole lot better.

684

in one study that we did, we

were looking at newlywed couples.

685

How the stressors they had at the

beginning of their marriage and how

686

they coped with those stressors.

687

And then we followed them over the

next five years through what we

688

know is a very stressful event.

689

It's a joyous event, but a stressful one.

690

And that is the transition of parenthood.

691

And how did they cope with

that new stressor that can, be

692

really challenging for a lot of

couples and daily to negotiate?

693

Yes.

694

And so what we found is that, if couples

have moderate levels of stress and they

695

have the skills and resources necessary

to successfully address that stress,

696

they are more resilient to stressors

down the road compared to people who

697

might have good resources but have less

experience managing stress together.

698

So the couples who started

out their marriage with.

699

Very little stress, but still

had some good communication.

700

They struggled more when they became

parents in terms of how that stress

701

affected their relationship compared

to the couples who had already

702

had some experience applying their

skills to other stressors, and now

703

were faced with this new stressor.

704

So there definitely is

evidence that stress resilience

705

can be built up over time.

706

Kelsy: That's the light

at the end of the tunnel.

707

Absolutely.

708

I love to hear that, that too.

709

Especially as someone who would like

to eventually enter that parenthood

710

stage and knowing, that it is this

resiliency building and maybe again,

711

putting into that emotional capital

to be like, okay, here's these little

712

things that we can do for each other

that strengthen our relationship, the

713

resilience that we're building through

all of these daily life stressors to

714

help us in this next stage of parenthood.

715

So sidestepping a little bit, let's

dive into friendship and I know

716

that's not necessarily your primary.

717

Mm-hmm.

718

Research focus but talk to us a little

bit about friendship and especially

719

you mentioned before this when we

were sort of prepping how men and

720

women approach friendship a little

bit differently or maybe require

721

different things from friendship,

722

Lisa: there's been a lot of

research showing that men often

723

benefit from being in a romantic

relationship more than women do.

724

Men and women both benefit.

725

but men get more of a boost

and people have been trying to

726

figure out, well, why is that?

727

And a big part of that seems to be that.

728

When they enter a romantic relationship

for men, their partner becomes

729

their primary source of support.

730

Their partner is their everything, their

best friend, their support provider.

731

Whereas women more likely to keep

a network of friends and divide

732

some of those responsibilities up.

733

So they have their partner, but they also

have other people who also are sources

734

of support for them in their life.

735

And that means, you know, if men are

totally relying on their romantic partner.

736

if that relationship falters it

can create more issues there.

737

So women are more likely to, keep

that friendship network and keep

738

those other avenues of support.

739

And that also has been shown to be really

important for couples relationships.

740

Sociologists have identified some

trends over the past 40, 50 years that

741

couples are becoming more isolated,

that compared to previous generations,

742

couples today are less likely to spend

time with friends or be involved in

743

community organizations or just be more

socially connected, that couples are

744

becoming more of an island, so to speak.

745

And that can be damaging because in my

lab we've done some research showing that.

746

Having those external sources

of support can be really helpful

747

when you're faced with conflict

in your romantic relationship.

748

So in this particular study.

749

We were looking at daily

conflict with a partner.

750

So, we did what we call

a daily diary study.

751

So every night before bed

couples are completing a survey

752

about the events of their day.

753

And part of that was did you have

any tensions or disagreements

754

with your partner that day?

755

And so, there's always gonna be some

days where those things happen every day.

756

We were also measuring

people's cortisol level.

757

In the morning and the evening

to look at their cortisol slopes.

758

And as you may know, the, natural

slope of cortisol is when we wake

759

up in the morning, it tends to be

sort of high to gear us up for our

760

day and then it steadily decreases

over the course of the day.

761

If it doesn't, that's a

sign of sustained stress.

762

And so, we were looking at the link

between conflict with my romantic

763

partner and my physiological stress.

764

But we are also interested in the role

external friends play in that link.

765

And so on average, what we found

is that on days when I had more

766

conflict with my partner, I was

more physiologically stressed.

767

But if I reported having more

satisfying relationships outside of

768

my marriage, that link disappeared.

769

Those conflicts with my partner

we're not creating more physiological

770

stress in me, which just says

I'm better able to weather.

771

The troubles in my relationship

if I have other sources of support

772

to confide in and, you know,

help me through those times.

773

And that was male and

774

Kelsy: female?

775

Both.

776

Yes.

777

Lisa: benefit.

778

Male and female both

779

Kelsy: had that benefit.

780

That's interesting.

781

And so women are just

better at having those.

782

Other people outside of the romantic

relationship, men maybe struggle with

783

that and it might take a little more

effort to build that, that network

784

and that community a little bit.

785

It makes sense.

786

And I see it too, just playing

out in all of our friendships

787

that we have as a couple and.

788

Being a girl, I feel like

girlhood and friendship mm-hmm.

789

It comes a little more naturally to us.

790

We did an episode on Friendship,

I think back in November with

791

the Thanksgiving episodes.

792

Yes.

793

And friendship and gratitude

and all of the fun things.

794

And there was a, a theory, I think it's

called the tend and befriend theory.

795

Yes.

796

Where Yes, absolutely.

797

Females are more, when they're faced

with challenges, they go to the tend and

798

befriend, we wanna take care of others

and we wanna bring other people into that.

799

Exactly, yes.

800

Where men maybe.

801

Go more towards that fight or flight.

802

Yes, absolutely.

803

So it, I thought that

was very interesting.

804

I was like, wait I see that play

out too, so Well, I know I learned

805

so, so much from you today.

806

I really appreciate you coming on

and I feel like I was nodding the

807

whole time and jaw on the floor.

808

I was like, of course that makes sense.

809

Selfishly, this has become a more of an

interest of mine and something I wanna

810

dive more into, as I mentioned earlier,

being so invested in the physical

811

health and wellness space and tracking

objective measures for muscle mass and

812

bone marral density and cardiovascular

factors, and all of these things.

813

And then realizing that the amount

that I run, the amount that I

814

exercise, quitting, smoking,

whatever it is that you're trying.

815

To do from a health behavior

standpoint might not even move the

816

needle as much as some of the quality

relationships and building some

817

of that community outside of it.

818

So I love that you are able to come on

and share all of the benefits of that

819

and the evidence physically of those

benefits too, with the wound healing.

820

That is such a cool study.

821

And measuring cortisol levels with

friendship, all of those things are

822

things that people understand I feel

like a little bit better than maybe.

823

This more abstract concept of how

do I even measure my relationships?

824

How do I mm-hmm.

825

Measure the quality of my relationships?

826

So I appreciate you coming on

and breaking it down and, and

827

talking about the research.

828

I know I learned so, so much.

829

Thank you very much.

830

That was fun.

831

Of course.

832

So I will leave the link to Dr.

833

Lisa's lab below and all of her

research articles below, if you guys

834

are curious on what to dive in more.

835

I think this will be an episode that I'm

gonna have to listen to probably every

836

so often, especially if I need a little

bit of a refresher of like, okay, what

837

did she say about support or conflict

management and all of these things that

838

we all experience in our relationship.

839

So I'm grateful to have this resource and

I'm grateful that you are able to come

840

and share that education with others.

841

So thank you so much.

842

Thank you for having me.

843

I hope you guys learned a lot and I

will see you guys again in the next

844

episode of Wellness Exists, the pod.