In this week’s episode Dr. Renee White chats with Dr. Laura Gainche, Ph.D., a Family Sleep Educator, neuroscientist, and sleep scientist who is on a mission to help families turn sleepless nights into blissful ones. Through her Science for All Women platform, Dr. Laura uses science and connection to guide parents toward finding their unique way to parent at night.

Together, Dr. Renee and Dr. Laura unravel some of the most pressing questions about baby sleep, explore the science behind wake windows and sleep cycles, and bust common myths that often leave parents second-guessing themselves. Whether you’re struggling with night wakings or simply curious about what’s happening during your baby’s sleep, Dr. Laura offers thoughtful, practical advice to help you find your family’s unique nighttime rhythm.

You'll hear about:

• The reality behind wake windows: Are they a must-follow rule or just another parenting myth? Dr. Laura explains how to use them without added stress.
• The science of sleep cycles: Learn what’s happening biologically during your baby’s sleep and why it’s normal for them to wake during the night.
• Tuning into your baby’s cues: Dr. Laura offers tips on how to spot when your baby is tired versus overstimulated, helping you navigate naps and bedtimes with ease.

Sleep is one of the biggest challenges for new parents, often leaving us feeling frustrated or like we’re doing something wrong. Dr. Laura and Dr. Renee team up to squash those myths and replace them with science-backed reassurance. This episode will help you take the pressure off, understand your baby’s cues, and focus on what matters most: connection and rest.

Follow Dr. Laura Gainche on Instagram and explore Science for All Women here

Related Podcast Episodes:

Episode 46: Wake Windows Demystified: Learn the ins and outs of wake windows and how to use them as a guide.

Episode 54: Baby Sleep Science Simplified: A deeper dive into baby sleep patterns and what to expect.

Episode 120: All About Babywearing: How babywearing can help manage naps and promote bonding.

If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe and share it with a friend who might be facing similar challenges. You can also explore Fill Your Cup for more resources, from nourishing lactation cookies to doula services designed to support you in every step of your motherhood journey.

Want to be nurtured and nourished after the birth of your baby, have a peek at our doula offerings.

Learn more about Dr Renee White and Explore Fill Your Cup Doula Services

If you want to gobble up our famousChocolate + Goji lactation cookies, look no further!

Got questions or feedback? Reach out anytime at hello@ifillyourcup.com, visit www.ifillyourcup.com or join us over on Instagram @fillyourcup_

You’re not alone in this journey, mama. Whether it’s surviving sleepless nights or celebrating small wins, we’re here for you every step of the way. Don’t forget to hit subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who could use a little encouragement today.

Here’s to navigating motherhood with science, support, and a whole lot of love—you’ve got this!

Disclaimer: The information in this podcast is presented by the Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice.

Nothing contained on this podcast is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional's advice.

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Study. Hello and welcome to episode 150 of the Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. so much for joining me today. We have got a guest who has been on this podcast a number of times now. She is one of our resident experts on sleep and she, like myself, is an avid researcher and that is why we continue to have her back on.

[00:01:29] My husband still talks about it and he is one of the pickiest eaters known to mankind. So it was so lovely to finally meet Dr. Laura Gainche in real life. For those who haven't heard her previous episodes, which were episodes 46 and 54, jump back into those to listen to Laura's, I guess, you know, origin story in detail.

[00:02:30] As way of background, Laura was originally a geneticist, uh, a lady after my own heart. I thought I was going to be a geneticist as well, but you know, biochemistry caught me instead. Um, interestingly enough, she did her PhD in the same town as I did in Melbourne in, um, human sleep physiology, but after becoming a mum, she found like a ton of conflicting information on science and baby wellbeing.

[00:03:30] So she founded the business science for all women. Which is amazing. As I said, you can hear more about that in detail in the other episodes, uh, episode 46 and 54. But in today's episode, you'll hear that Laura and I try to start and embark on a journey where we kind of, you know, keep to questions that we were hashing about, you know, offline, but as usual, our chats always evolve and come back to research.

[00:04:35] But ultimately, you know, it is just the weaving in of the latest research, which as I said, Laura has a fantastic handle on. So I really hope you enjoy this chat with Laura about the latest on sleep research. Here is Laura. Hello and welcome to the podcast. Dr. Laura Gainche, how are you?

[00:05:13] Dr Renee White: Yes. For all those playing at home, Laura was on twice already, uh, on our previous episodes and we just conferred episode 46 and 54 where we were talking about throwing out the wake window time schedules and they were fantastic episodes. I can't even remember how we connected in the beginning. I was trying to think about this the other day. It was probably social media. I probably saw something of yours and I was like, Oh my God. And then for all those playing at home, uh, you'll hear that Laura has a French accent, but she is going to blindside you because she's French Chilean and she lives in Japan and we met up last, is it last year?

[00:06:02] Dr Renee White: Last year around, uh, Easter time. Yeah. And um, Laura took myself and my husband to the most amazing tempura restaurant ever, Grayson still yabbers on about that place. He absolutely loved it and I still remember you, you had this beautiful gift for my daughter. Those beautiful gorgeous strawberries that she was, she was trying to ration the entire trip, Laura. She was like, Oh, they're so beautiful, mum. I can't eat all of them. And I was like, that's okay, darling Laura will understand.

[00:06:46] Dr Renee White: And that was a magic trip for us.

[00:07:26] Dr Renee White: You exist, you exist in real time but we were so lucky because um japan had just opened with like the whole covid lockdown thing and it was yeah it was such a nice opportunity to just sit and chat and as you say connect because you know, despite Instagram, there's real people out there with real families and yeah, it was really, really lovely.

[00:08:30] Dr Laura Gainche: So, hi, I'm Laura. I'm originally a geneticist turned sleep scientist. So always kind of in the neuroscience field. Uh, and I then became a sleep educator because I got pushed into it by, you know, mummy groups when I became a mum and they were like, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. And so most of my kind of content is on Instagram. Uh, but I just, you know, you have this thing now on Instagram where you can write some kind of header or heading.

[00:09:04] Dr Laura Gainche: And I wrote. I post sporadically, but it is quality content.

[00:09:15] Dr Laura Gainche: And so I still take clients here and there, but, uh, right now really focused on kind of digging. I'm actually doing some juicy, juicy, research, sleep research, uh, for a YouTube video that I'm making. Oh, keep an eye on that. I don't think we'll talk about that today. Maybe we will.

[00:09:42] Dr Laura Gainche: But yeah, so yeah, I'm a sleep educator now, um, mostly with families. I sometimes also talk about adult sleep since that was originally my, my expertise, but all sleep, all fun, no mum shaming, uh, a lot of tolerance, a lot of science. Um, so yeah, join us, um, on the podcast and on Instagram, YouTube, wherever.

[00:10:47] And cut a long story short, she was just talking about, you know, the different topics she was hoping for but then she made a note of saying, I also loved your episode on sleep with Dr. Laura Gainche, it has literally changed my life. Okay, so anyone who's on the fence about listening to Laura and all of her wisdom, sign up. Pick the follow, get on board, people, because it is life changing, these discussions.

[00:11:43] And, um, as much as, you know, we work with families and we have amazing reviews and testimonials in private, sometimes it's, it's hard to know that, this is important, this worked for you, or you want to know more about this, like, um, and actually Renee, I'm not sure I told you, but a colleague of mine from the University of Melbourne worked with one of your doulas.

[00:12:41] Dr Renee White: Thank you for that. It is, it is like when I received that message, I was having a bit of like, you know what, you know, you have a rough week and you're just like far out, nothing's working, you know, tech things are going wrong.

[00:13:14] I hope one person out there finds value in this, you know, just kind of like moving along. So it'd be so nice to read reviews. It's so nice for people to jump into the DMS and just be like, hey, you know what? That was awesome. Thank you so much. Like, it's just, you know, a little pick me up for the week.

[00:14:02] Yeah. But that's the thing. I also understand that you're a parent and you really have more to do than send messages or testimonials or something. So if you feel like it on that moment, don't push it away and be like, oh, I'll just say I love it something small. It makes all the difference.

[00:14:23] Okay. Let's jump into some of these topics. We've got a list of things that we're going to get through in today's episode. So, um, if any of these resonate with you, uh, you know, please feel free to comment. If there's something that we miss out on this topic as well, like send us, send us a DM and be like, Hey, Hey, Hey, can you like tell us about, you know, this or more about that? So our first question, I love this. This is kind of like a little mini rapid fire, best baby sleep environment and what you, and we're doing bunny quotes here, people, what should you buy? If anything, I saw this the other day, there was a mum who, uh, it's kind of long time between drinks, let's just say between her second and now pregnant with her third, and she was kind of doing a bit of a call out and like, Hey, you know, what's, what are the latest gadgets and things that I need to get for this new baby? And like, you know, there was a couple of people suggesting things and I threw my hat in the ring and just said, depends on the baby though, doesn't it?

[00:15:29] Dr Laura Gainche: We're absolutely, you know, you know, we are. Um, so, you know, besides even just buying something, people will organise an entire bedroom for the baby who's not even born and I feel like, you know, tell me if you, you disagree, but I feel like when you have a baby, the first thing that you think is nursery, like the first thing that you're like, well, that's what I have to do. Like, you don't think about taking care of yourself during pregnancy. You don't think about, you know, what kind of exercise you're going to do if you want to continue exercising. It's like, you don't think about that. No, it's just like baby equals nursery, which means that the marketing of, you know, the world is working very well, but that's where I want to stop first is like, I want to know.

[00:16:40] So why you were saying it is, is so good. And it's, it's, I was actually writing down this number, which I think is like 70, 000 billion, something there's, there's like three, three, three, there's like 12 zeros. So I think it's like 70, 000 billion, about 70, 000 billion is the number of, um, genetic possibilities of humans.

[00:17:11] Dr Laura Gainche: In theory. So not that this exists. It's just a possibility. Yeah. So, um, with this amount of possibilities of genes, we're all so different, you know, it's like, there's no way that we're going to have that many people and then that we're going to have copy of each other who have the same needs who have the same preferences and this is just one way to illustrate that.

[00:18:00] I always talk about it just with a stroller. So I feel like that's one of the most common question on, on mum groups, on Facebook, if people still are on Facebook, wherever mum groups are, what's the best stroller, which one's the best stroller. And I still remember to this day, one of my best friend, when I was a parent had that stroller, that was amazing. She was like, Oh, this is the best stroller. This is the best stroller. And eventually I bought the same stroller, which made so much sense for me cause I was always in the bus on the train and I needed something sturdy because I was walking a lot, but really kind of narrow to enter the bus and be on the bus with crowded people, but it still couldn't be like one of those, you know, many wheels kind of thing.

[00:19:06] She got another stroller for traveling. And then she was like, Oh my God, actually the other stroller really sucked. Oh, for her situation because she was driving around and that big ass stroller that was heavy to put in and out of her trunk all the time did not make sense. And then when she found another stroller that fit her situation better, she realised that the other one was actually impacting, you know, the easiness, the daily life and stuff like that.

[00:19:41] Dr Renee White: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, we were the same. We had like the big chunky stroller and then once once Eva kind of, you know, grew up a little bit and we started traveling a bit more, we got one of those ones that you can fold up and throw on the plane. And you're right, I thought, well, I didn't think my stroller was amazing in the beginning. I thought, I thought it was the best option we had at the time in terms of budget and things like that. But then when I, we got this travel stroller, I got rid of the old one because I was like, oh man, this one I can navigate with like one hand.

[00:20:36] Dr Laura Gainche: Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's really the same for baby carriers, for example, from what I hear, we were quite lucky in terms of the ones we had chosen. Um, but first of all, first of all, please read the manual or go to a class, please, for baby wearing, because this is driving me nuts. Second of all, for safety reasons, for safety reasons, please inform yourself before.

[00:21:20] Dr Laura Gainche: I don't know if you've seen this in Japan, there's lots of baby wearing, but I'd say 99 percent of people wear their baby completely wrong. And it's, uh, gives me a heart attack every time, even though I see it every day. And I'm like, please just read the manual. Like you're hurting yourself. You're hurting your baby. Nothing is going. But what I want to say is that some babies really have strong preferences for the type of material, the type of position, if it's on the side, if it's on the, on the front, if it's like facing forward, which, you know, is somewhat also controversial.

[00:22:24] It also affects a lot from what I understand. Um, and, and yeah, so one thing that I told, cause I got two Uh, mums to be consults recently, which I had not had before. And I said, uh, if you really have a separate room, like if you are in one of those countries where you have a separate free room to put the baby in, put a mattress on the floor and experiment first like that and then maybe rent a crib. See how that works. Is your baby a crib baby? I'm gonna say those are very rare. Like most cribs end up just piled up with clean laundry. I hope not dirty.

[00:23:12] Dr Laura Gainche: So if we get into the science a little bit, cause I was like, okay, crib, crib, crib, let's, let's find out a little bit more about it. And I decided to look at the statistics specifically in the United States, where I believe is one of the strongest country promoting independent sleep strategies.

[00:23:58] Dr Renee White: Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:24:44] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:25:21] And knowing that that many people somehow can't. It's like, Hmm, what's going on there? You know? Yeah. So you have more experience in that, like, what do you think about that? What do you think is going on there?

[00:26:12] Because I think what's happened now is people were like, let's stop, you know, pushing this taboo subject of co-sleeping under the carpet and let's flip the flip it and go, okay, we acknowledge you are absolutely going to be doing that because P. S. It is so much easier to co-sleep in in some households. It was in ours um, it still continues to be like, you know, easier in our house. Like if my daughter's sick, you know, or like, you know, something like that, it's just easier to co-sleep. Like it just is um, and so, you know, Red Nose, for example, have got the guidelines and they're like, right, okay, let's just teach everyone how to do this safely instead of just not talking about it anymore.

[00:27:11] Dr Laura Gainche: So same room. So that's where, uh, unfortunately I couldn't have everyone. So the data, like, Oh, I fought with this table so much. And I was like, how do I extract exactly the data I want? So this was among the people who room share.

[00:27:30] Dr Laura Gainche: 60 percent bed share also. Which I'm glad that since that one is under six months old, I'm glad they room share. But from what I understand in the United States, um, a lot of people will separate from birth, uh, their rooms and, uh, just, you know, we didn't mention that, but I have kind of a part on safety as well for today if we want to discuss that more. But when we say that you need to room share it's for nights and naps, your baby should not be left alone and the baby camera is not enough for promoting safety and them feeling that there's another body in the room and reacting unconsciously in their sleep and, you know, lowering the risk of SIDS for sure.

[00:28:58] Dr Renee White: Exactly. Yes. I think there is like some other like alarming, not alarming statistic, but like, it's almost like a false negative. Like so many people were like, Oh no, I don't co, I don't co-sleep at all. And it's like, Hmm, Yeah, you actually do like, you're just not saying it, but interestingly, so, you know, we've got friends who have just recently had a baby. I think he's about four weeks old now. And, um, I was talking to, you know, the dad the other day, and he was just saying how, um, you know, Bubby's unsettled.

[00:30:23] Yeah, I like, I don't need to justify myself to you. So I think that's another misconception that people like, uh, like feel like they're failing because they're like, oh my God, why is my child so unsettled when I'm not holding them?

[00:30:56] Dr Renee White: Hold your baby as if its you.

[00:30:58] Dr Laura Gainche: You shouldn't hold your baby, but here's a robot who will hold your baby and shake your baby. Yeah, like you actually acknowledge the need for babies to be held.

[00:31:43] There is, there are, you know, you know, Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum, like, you know, I talk about this ad nauseam. The biochemical reactions that are occurring when a baby is held by, you know, a parent, a caregiver, are just immense. That can't be replicated by a robotic crib. So I just don't see how it's doing the same thing for me, you need to harvest a kidney to pay for one too, by the way.

[00:32:52] How do I, you know, go from dial up to dial down? Yeah. I have never felt that before or if my dial up has been muted, you know, or prevented or whatever those beds do to certain babies. I don't know. So for me, yeah, the, the, the importance of the, the attachment in general, but the corregulation, and I've seen that in personal cases and, um, And we talked about a few cases also in the other podcast, but where when the child understands the benefit of the co-regulation, it's, it's such a kind of steep improvements in terms of behaviors, allowing them to express themselves and then allowing them to understand how they can feel better. And again, this, this up and down, and then when they become ready, emotionally, physically, anatomically, then they can do it as adults themselves. So I feel like there would be a letdown eventually in time if, you know, your baby is always raised by something or someone else.

[00:34:04] Dr Laura Gainche: But then the question is, if we go back to the crib, those families who, who have the crib, who have the nursery, who have everything ready, who have any kind of gadget that you, they need, uh, why do they end up having to bed share? And it's, it's, it's quite simple. First of all, babies wake a lot for so many reasons. I actually have a new reason. That's so interesting. Uh, cause I was diving into night terrors recently for a question that I got. And I was like, okay. Um, it's a Facebook book group and this mum asks a lot of questions.

[00:34:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah, that's fascinating. Is that like, is that latest research or you?

[00:36:41] This is kind of basic knowledge of, of, um, of night terrors. Um. But I thought that was really interesting because babies wake not just because they're hungry, but for all other sorts of, um, of stimulus that might happen during the night. And I'm actually, okay, let me give you a little bit of what I was talking about in the YouTube, but I, I'm digging on the thermal regulation. So the temperature regulation of your body. Cause I was like, um, how does that work throughout sleep phases? And what's the optimal temperatures throughout sleep phases?

[00:37:32] Dr Laura Gainche: Ooh, that's good.

[00:38:05] Dr Laura Gainche: Makes sense.

[00:38:35] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:39:00] So it means that there are times during sleep where we are cold blooded. How crazy!

[00:39:10] Dr Laura Gainche: Okay. This is so fascinating for me because, you know, if you have to be, you know, you hear about this cold to fall asleep because your core temperature goes down and that's how sleep evolves, uh, at the beginning of the night, what temperature would work for you not to wake up when you're in this cold blooded state? Because if it's too cold, aren't you going to wake up?

[00:39:37] Dr Laura Gainche: And then kind of finding the balance. And I was like, Ooh, you know, this is something important. I've had families where once they put a carpet under the crib of their baby, their baby slept through the night.

[00:39:53] Dr Laura Gainche: There was some like, there was some, so it was, it was

[00:39:58] Dr Laura Gainche: They had, um, how do you call that? That kind of travel, uh, baby bed. That's what they were using.

[00:40:12] Dr Laura Gainche: It's not like a proper mattress where it's like thick. And then, you know, so I think the air could go under. And so eventually it was like, okay, can we experiment with this? Can you put a blanket under the, you know, and the baby started waking much less. And basically there was a sensitivity to temperature. Again, it's not all babies don't start being OCD with temperatures all the time. If your baby sleeps fine, like it is, but yeah, that was really, really interesting and I was like then when I found and also and this is the last piece of the information that I'm trying to add in the research for this YouTube channel because the YouTube video is mostly about adult sleep, but I wanted to add in the kind of child sleep into it as well because of course there's not as much research on thermoregulation on babies, but from an old and that's from memory, and I couldn't find a reference yet.

[00:41:54] It's like. My baby's hungry. I can tell. My baby, my baby has a wet diaper, he hates it I can tell, but if something happens and you're like, I'm not quite sure. And you have this in your mind and you're like, maybe I should experiment with temperature then experiment with temperature. But, um, I like to dig in more and be like, Oh, how is this? But this thing where I, when I read that and I was like, wait, where, sometimes cold blooded. I was like fascinated.

[00:43:09] She's got blankets everywhere and she's other end of the bed. Like she's just, that's just how she works. So

[00:44:04] Dr Renee White: Oh God, yes.

[00:44:24] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Oh, 100%. So, you know, when, uh, when Eva was older and she was sleeping in a separate room, you know, that, uh, this is like one of those moments, like mum moments for me, if I see a dressing gown, like, um, just laying on the edge of a bed. That is a triggering thing for me because I would get up. I would, you know, get my dressing gown, I would put it on, I would walk into her room, I would feed her back to sleep, you know, all the things. And then I would then I would, you know, get back into bed, take my dressing gown off, drape it over the end of my bed so I would know where it was.

[00:46:00] Because you're just like, is this it? Like we've been running on adrenaline and now we've got nothing left in the tank and, and you're just like, oh my God, like how much longer is this going to have to last? Like when do we get a reprieve? Because it's that compound effect, right, Laura? Like it's just, you know, you go out when you're younger and you have the all nighters and you're like, Oh yeah, this is great. Because like the next day you can sleep in, sit on the couch, order Uber Eats and watch Netflix. But when you're a parent, it's relentless. Like that, like life goes on and you're just like, no, I want to get off the carousel now, please.

[00:46:43] Dr Renee White: I want to talk about, because I've noticed we've got something else down here and I want to talk about another triggering thing for me, which absolutely did my head in. This 12 hour night myth or reality? Because I've been very vocal before on this podcast about the fact that, um, you know, we had two different sleep specialists come in and, and try and assist with Eva's sleep because I just didn't, I just kept getting told that she's broken essentially and that we had to do something to fix this.

[00:47:18] Dr Renee White: Um, and so, you know, we were given these very regimented sleep schedules, which always included, um, you know, bed at 7.00 PM, they should rise at 7.00 AM and inevitably my child would rise at like 5, 5.30, if we were absolutely lucky 6 o'clock and I'd probably be going in there to make sure that she was alive, to be honest. Um, You know, I now know that she's one of those children that is on the kind of low end of the kind of, yeah, low needs, um, sleep needs spectrum and so the 7 to 7 was

[00:48:07] Dr Renee White: I was setting myself up for a fail. Can you please tell me, am I an N equals one, and this is just me, or are we talking about a more broader, um, data set? Don't fit into this 12 hour window, that magical window that everyone talks about.

[00:48:49] Dr Renee White: Oh my god, especially as a scientist,

[00:49:35] Dr Renee White: I got told. Yeah. Point blank. I hear that. That, that sleep is as important as, as food. And if you deprive your child of sleep, their development will be delayed. That's what I was told. Okay.

[00:49:53] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:49:54] Dr Renee White: I'm in control.

[00:49:57] Dr Renee White: You're a terrible mother because you cannot teach your child to sleep. That is the narrative.

[00:50:06] Dr Renee White: We just put like a big ba bow on that.

[00:50:13] Dr Renee White: It's not funny. I know. It's so real.

[00:50:57] Dr Renee White: Oh my gosh.

[00:51:44] So no, uh, no premi's or anything. Okay. Great. It was measured with actigraphy. So again, just a reminder, it's like a little apple watch that you can wear on your wrist and you can measure movement. So that really helps to objectively measure if someone's awake or asleep. And here's what they found. The maximum, maximum, absolute maximum that a child would sleep at night was 10 hours and a half, six months old we're talking,

[00:52:20] Dr Laura Gainche: Um, I think they didn't calculate the, uh, the, they didn't account, so this could be with awakenings. Yeah.

[00:52:34] Dr Laura Gainche: No. So that's just like the longest night's sleep that they would get with or without night wakes. Probably nightwakes.

[00:52:43] Dr Laura Gainche: Um, the average, that's, that's where you're going to feel better about all your trauma.

[00:52:51] Dr Laura Gainche: Eight hours and 46 minutes.

[00:53:10] Dr Laura Gainche: She would have less than eight hours and a half you think of sleep or night? Um, cause the thing is when you have the wakefulness, sometimes you don't realise.

[00:53:25] Dr Laura Gainche: Yeah, and you freak out because you're like, that's, that's what an adult should sleep, right? And you're like, yeah, but you don't account for the naps. You don't account for, you know, little chunks of sleep, but I found that I was like, wait, the average sleep for a six month old is not even nine hours per night. Um, of course we don't have the circumstances we don't know who these babies were, but 300 babies that's a lot.

[00:54:21] Dr Laura Gainche: I have my daughter's sleep, uh, not feeds cause it was just, well, probably I had it for three years. I have my daughter's sleep probably recorded for six years.

[00:54:42] Dr Laura Gainche: The patterns

[00:55:11] Dr Laura Gainche: You just have to adjust the number of naps. You just have to adjust the number of naps if you have a short nappers. It's just don't follow the three hour nap, nap schedule.

[00:55:23] Dr Laura Gainche: On a 45 minutes nap break.

[00:56:18] Dr Laura Gainche: Especially, especially if you had a low sleep need, it means that by doing that you were definitely taking some of her sleep that maybe she would do at night. Yep. During the day. So there are some kids again, I've had, I've had a 20, 21 hour baby sleep sleeper in my, in my consult, which, you know, there again, those are very rare, like

[00:56:46] Dr Laura Gainche: Even those, the mum was like, is my baby sleeping too much that we cannot win. We cannot win. Um, but it, it really depends on that. And that would be the first thing I would do is like, look at this 24 hours window that Renee was just mentioning, because likely your baby will have around the same amount of time per 24 hours. And if you know, their amount of needs of sleep for 24 hours, not from someone who told you how many, how much hours, but from your baby, then you can be like, okay, how can I rearrange this? Yeah, that it might work with my schedule. And of course, if your baby has wake windows or, you know, has some preference kind of, it's a, it's a lot of experimenting, but having already an idea and you can do that on yourself as well.

[00:58:15] Eight hours, eight hours, eight hours. And it's like, for the people who can't sleep that much or who need more. Again, you're like guilt tripped into thinking you have a problem when the norm looks like a bell and the people on the side of the bell, they exist.

[00:59:10] And then I'll be like, okay, she probably needs to go down for a sleep now. So I put her down for a sleep and then like, and then I kind of gathered, I was like, oh yeah, it's about 40, 45 minutes that she's taking to have these sleeps. And I'm like, okay, well, let's just see how we, and then I remember. I think I told that to someone in my mother's group. And I was like, yeah, this is like a really cool pattern that I've noticed. And she was like, Oh my God, that's catnapping. You need to sort that out straight away. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? And she was like, our babies don't know how to sleep. You need to train them. You need to teach them.

[01:00:11] And so you just, like, it's like, It's like she walked into my kitchen and just flipped my kitchen table over with like that type of statement. And I was just like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? And I contacted a sleep consultant like the next day. And I was just like, Oh my God, what do I do? What's happening? What's going on?

[01:01:02] Dr Renee White: Do you know why though? I, because I have, I have seriously thought about this because it really bothered me because without sounding like I'm blowing smoke up our ass, Laura, I thought to myself, we are researchers. We've got, you know, tons of training as academics, how to analyse data. You know, people are constantly throwing information at us all the time and we have to critically analyse it as scientists. But all of a sudden we became mothers and something happened to our brains and our ability to critically analyse rationally went out the goddamn window. And I like, it's, it's very, very interesting because, and I like talking about research and I haven't actually dived into it yet. Um, and by the time this episode airs, my research analysis will be out on this, but a new publication has just been released in nature neuroscience and they have, uh, they have mapped over pregnancy before pregnancy throughout pregnancy and postpartum. The changes in the maternal brain now previously, all we had was like pre pregnancy. Maybe one during pregnancy and one data point after the baby arrived, but they have mapped the whole thing. And there's some very, very interesting changes that go on in our brains. And I think part of that is that we, it's well, we level up on a number of like facets, but also I feel like we make room for other things and speaking of like thermoregulation and stuff like that, we become like sponges and sieves.

[01:03:38] Dr Laura Gainche: I think that it also depends on your experience. I'd say as a woman, in terms of how you grew up, and we talked, we talked about that in one episode where I was like, you know, when I reconnected to my ovulation and feeling ovulation for the first time, I feel like it opened up some connection in my body and then helped me connect with my daughter later. But if you have been inhibited from the beginning to feel these things, and then if you've accepted the BS from gynecologists telling you, you know, no problem here, take the pill, and then yeah, you find out 20 years later you have PCOS or end Yes. Endometriosis. So, yes. You know, uh, there's also this level of personal experience with the medical field.

[01:05:27] So for me, I went into it being like, Obviously, um, there's a point where it will have to be done because scientifically and that's such surface level again, I, I didn't think at that point, wait, I'm not an expert on this maybe I should go dig those publications and find out all the holes that they contain. But I think those two things, it's like one, I used to trust medical professionals and so. Again, for me, this is the basic when you become a mum or when you get pregnant is. If you don't have a good vibe with someone, if they don't answer your questions, if they don't take seriously, bye, goodbye,

[01:06:11] Dr Laura Gainche: Exactly. And so it's the same for, for a sleep consult. It's like, is the person listening to you? Are they answering your question? Are they answering your concerns? Um, but this is something I had to learn way more recently to be like I'm the, I'm a client, you know, even for a doctor, I'm a client. I matter. Like you have to listen to me. You shouldn't just give me orders. Um, but yeah, that's also what I hate on social media in terms of the sleep environment, where it's like, um, are you doing this? It's bad. You're hurting your baby. And they say it with so much confidence. And I'm like, I wish, I wish I was that ignorantly. You know, confidence, to be honest. to be honest, that's, uh, like I kind of envy those people, but I wish they weren't so loud. .

[01:08:18] Like it really isn't and it's not worth it because as someone who continued on that journey for so long, because I just kept thinking to myself, it's got to work, like it's got to work. And then one day I'm going to feel amazing. And it's, it's got to work sooner or later because you know, they've told me that if I do this, if I do X, Y, Z, I'll get the result, A, B, C, you know, at the end of the day, B, as we've said. Babies are all different. We're all different human beings and one size fit all is not, maybe not suitable for your kid.

[01:10:12] I get it, but the mum was like, can you promise me if we do this session that at three months old, I'll get, I can't remember what she said, six hours of sleep, stretch or something like that. And, and we had like, I had, uh, I think 45 minutes free consult with her and I explained all the things, you know, the biology, the developmental readiness, all of the information. And then, um, we, we leave on that and I'm like, okay, And then she sends me an email and she asks me again in the email, all the questions of typical sleep training. Will my baby be able to self soothe? Will my baby? And I'm like, I could tell that I couldn't reach her. And as much as I wish I could, you know, it's like asking people to go to therapy unless they decide to do it themselves.

[01:11:05] Dr Laura Gainche: You know, there's only so much you can do. And it's, it was hard when I started doing this work being like, I want everyone to know, but not everyone is ready to know, unfortunately.

[01:12:05] Dr Laura Gainche: It's, it's why it's important to have people like you in the community, in the mothering community, but also the sleep to be like, you know, I did that. I tried it and be like, I can tell you I'm on the other side and it's

[01:12:38] Dr Laura Gainche: Yeah, absolutely. So a few more statistics. This is an older study on 101 infants. But what's important about this study is that they mixed, um, Uh, mixed feeds, breastfeeds and formula feeding and basically there was no differences between the three groups, but only 10 percent could sleep five hour stretches at one month old and less than 50 percent could do five hour stretches at three months old. So again, going back to the 12 hours a night, that needs to give you perspective because five hour stretch is already too much expectations pretty much for most, for most babies. And again, I know it's hard, but what we were saying before also is that. Um, when everything goes crazy and you're sleep deprived and your postpartum and your body's recovering, um, there's lots of other things you can do that's not about sleep and that will have a huge impact on you.

[01:14:06] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Take this pill. You'll, yeah.

[01:14:44] Dr Renee White: Yeah. 100 percent Also. And then, yeah, like, I mean, for us, it, it was, um, you know, catch the, catch the, sleep while you can during the day. And I know this is going to really polarize some people, but I am a huge advocate for sleep when the baby sleeps. I know people think it's bananas, but I also kind of feel like, you know, people like, oh, well, you know, I'll do the washing when the baby does the washing. And I'm like, Yeah, you can. So what you do is, because I'll give you the playbook on that, you sleep when the baby sleeps and then you actually feel better and then you have energy for when the baby is awake.

[01:15:50] Dr Laura Gainche: hoping for the best.

[01:16:25] Dr Laura Gainche: I agree. But I also feel like this is a lack of education, right? Because this is what you should plan for. How are you going to make that work when you're in postpartum? Because thinking about this strategising when the baby's there is tricky, right? Because again, as you were saying, your brain is mush. Yeah. Thank you. The latest data. Hundred percent. Um, and so it, it's really, it's the kind of talk that you need to have prenatally, not the F'ing nursery. You need to talk about what am I going to do you know, with this rhythm, what are, what, you know, what can we make easier for food?

[01:17:27] Dr Renee White: Would, would they have let me in? I don't know. Oh, I wonder. It depends. Yeah. Maybe I'll just send you, maybe I'll just send you some packets.

[01:17:40] Dr Renee White: You know, I still eat our cookies. Like I'm seven years postpartum. I'm still eating them because they are so good. Cause they're so high in protein and like, I just grab them if I'm bolting out the door for something or it is my classic, like 3.00 PM snack now, not 3.00 AM snack. Um, but my 3.00, PM snack now, um, like I'll just grab one of those because although it's still a cookie, you know, I love Tim Tams, I'm not slagging them off, but my blood sugar will be a lot more stable with one of our cookies rather than a Tim Tam, but, um, yeah, I'll put some in the post for you, Laura.

[01:18:31] Dr Renee White: Yes, maybe dump bags.

[01:19:32] Dr Renee White: Uh, I swear that we didn't organise this offline, everyone, but if anyone else is sitting there going, yeah, that's what I need to do. We actually have that as a service, Laura, it's called Prep for Fourth, and it's a one on one chat with me. We sit down for like two hours, um, me, mama, and, you know, non birthing person, partner and we game plan exactly that. How are you going to thrive, not survive? We talk about nutrition, sleep, boundaries, changes in relationships, transitioning toddlers, like the whole, like the mental load of the house, chore, division, the whole kit kaboodle. Um, so people can actually jump onto our website. Um, which is ifillyourcup.com and if you go to the offering section it's under planning and it's called Prep for Fourth. So if anyone wants and we do it worldwide because it's zoom. So we can do it.

[01:20:52] Dr Renee White: Yeah, exactly. Sleep deprivation.

[01:21:03] Dr Renee White: No, we don't. No, possums, unfortunately, um, no longer exist, but what we do have in lieu of that, it's called the Full Cup Village, which is essentially our first online educational platform. And it's got a whole bunch of experts in there that you can learn from. So, um, that's a village that people can join up to, I think it's, it's 10 a month, you know, and you get access to. That's great. Amazing, amazing experience because we were just creative. Yeah, we were like, like you, like you sit there and you're like trying to Google all this stuff of like, is this normal?

[01:22:19] So, yeah. Hey, we've, we do this every time. Yeah, right out of time instead of topics, but we're going to do it again. We're going to do the quick rapid fire, which we do with all of our guests at the end. Um, I don't know if you remember what you said in your previous episode, we're going to try it again. Okay. Are you ready? Yes. Top tip for mums.

[01:23:33] And I'm like, this is what I wish for mums. I wish mums to have this knowledge and be able to be like, Oh, my labor is, is five days long and it's completely normal. Um, so really kind of thinking about what you want to do, uh, talking with your partner, um, Aligning with your partner being demanding with your partner. That's that's the tip. Um, and, uh, and prioritise yourself.

[01:24:15] Dr Laura Gainche: Um, these days, I'm circling back to the, the, the basics of that book that I know you love the whole brainchild. Yes. Um, I've had to talk about it with a few people lately, and again, more for kind of, uh, I, I think one of the things that I get a lot these days is kind of conflict between the two parents. Okay. Where it's like one parent doesn't understand the difficulty of the other and they can't get you know, aligned or like, or like understand the mental load of hanging out with your baby all day and managing all their emotions and co-regulating. And so I feel like if we can get more parents, both parents read the whole brain child, it can help with the mental load of the primary caregiver.

[01:25:04] Dr Laura Gainche: Uh, so highly recommend that.

[01:25:18] Dr Laura Gainche: A mess. A mess right now. Uh, what's on my bedside table? At the moment, my Kindle is my lifesaver. Yes. Uh, I think since Covid I really started reading a lot and, um, you know when you have the choice between your phone and the Kindle and you're like, which one? Which, but you know that if you pull out the Kindle, you're gonna fall asleep really fast.

[01:25:50] Dr Laura Gainche: And I think this is like, it's, it's my greatest tool to fall asleep basically, but I have to make the choice, you know, and it's always like, did I have enough me time today? Or am I going to stay online for too long and then regret it tomorrow? But, um, I think one of the, the thing I've learned, cause I, I've grew up, uh, not a big reader because I felt like you were supposed to read certain books. And when again, I made life easier for myself, prioritise myself, focus on my, my preference and my needs, and just started reading whatever the hell I want. Suddenly I want to read, I want to be on my Kindle and it replaces all the waste of time, not waste of time. I, I don't blame procrastination. Procrastination can be very good, but sometimes you have better things to do than be scrolling on your phone. So yeah, Kindle, your favorite book, find, find, I don't know. I, and now I don't feel guilty if I start reading a book and I'm like, no, pass, read something else.

[01:27:32] Dr Laura Gainche: We have other things to talk about.

[01:28:02] Dr Laura Gainche: And I also feel like, um, yesterday I was working too late and I try not to these days because I really struggle to calm my nervous system. And I know I need a certain amount of time to kind of go back down. Uh, and I started reading really feeling like you know, like, no, I, I won't sleep fast. Well, I passed out in probably less than 20 minutes. So the reading and reading something you really enjoy is magical. Like it's, it's so,

[01:28:44] Dr Laura Gainche: Um, I'm glad we chat a little bit before the episode.

[01:29:22] Dr Laura Gainche: Me too. And I have to not hype myself too much. Otherwise I'm going to freak out and be like, Oh, I can't do it anymore. But I've yeah, no, it's, it's really cool. It's really interesting, I think. And it's great because I like doing these videos where. Professionals are also interested, not just parents, you know, and it's like, oh, if I know more about this topic, I can help families better. So hopefully, hopefully it will be a good one.

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[01:30:30] Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye!