Shownotes
Episode 2 - The Emotional Highs & Lows of IVF
In this second episode of our series on IVF, co-host Jill Van Gyn explores the emotional complexities of fertility treatments, with a special focus on IVF and pregnancy loss. Joining her is Alexandra Stewart M.A., RCC, PMH-C, a seasoned fertility therapist with personal and deep expertise in reproductive mental health.
They unpack the often unspoken psychological toll of infertility, highlighting:
- the emotional resilience required to endure repeated treatments
- the grief of pregnancy loss
- the impact of societal and self-imposed expectations on the journey to parenthood
- the unexpected toll it can take on relationships and partnerships
Alexandra shares invaluable insights on the importance of therapy as both a coping mechanism and a community-building tool. She also offers guidance on how to support oneself or a loved one through the profound ups and downs of reproductive challenges.
Whether you're facing fertility challenges yourself or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers empathy, understanding, and hope.
Trigger Warning: This episode includes sensitive discussions about pregnancy loss.
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Transcripts
Hello, feisties.
Speaker A:Welcome back to episode two in our IVF series.
Speaker A:I think it's called the Ultramarathon.
Speaker A:No one signs up for.
Speaker B:Yes, Rachel.
Speaker B:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker B:I mean, some people do sign up for it, but I think that if people could avoid it, they would.
Speaker A:Yeah, totally makes sense.
Speaker A:So we have another episode coming up to another interview coming up today that's quite different to the things you talked about with Carla.
Speaker A:We're talking to Alexandra.
Speaker A:What do you two.
Speaker A:What can we expect coming up?
Speaker B:Yeah, so Alexandra Stewart is a fertility therapist, and she focuses a lot on issues of fertility and pregnancy loss.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And we really dive deeply into the emotional aspects of fertility and the processes associated with that.
Speaker B:We dig into pregnancy loss and into just some.
Speaker B:Some of the ideas around the emotional side of trying to become pregnant and then, you know, having difficulty with that, because that was one of the most.
Speaker B:I mean, equally as difficult as the physical aspect of IVF was the emotional aspect of it.
Speaker B:And I would highly recommend that anybody pursuing this do find a good therapist to walk hand in hand with you through this.
Speaker B:I will also put out a trigger warning for people because we do, of course, discuss pregnancy loss.
Speaker B:And I know for myself, going through IVF and loss, I wish there had been more trigger warnings out there for.
Speaker B:For me so that I could choose to opt out if I needed to.
Speaker B:So, you know, you may not be in a place in your journey right now where you want to be discussing this stuff, so it might be something you save for later.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I.
Speaker B:I will share a little bit more about my story, and we'll get into how to grapple with the emotional and often the spiritual side of pursuing ibs.
Speaker A:Yeah, I really appreciated this conversation a lot when I listen to it.
Speaker A:And it's interesting because I think I went into this thinking I don't really have a relationship with infertility or ivf.
Speaker A:But as you were talking, I was like, what.
Speaker A:What do I mean?
Speaker A:Of course I do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And like, I was.
Speaker A:I myself was adopted.
Speaker A:So my parents in a different era went through that, and I had not.
Speaker A:Until I was listening to you talk and then saying about adoption as an option and how expensive it is now.
Speaker A:That was very interesting because I.
Speaker A:I hadn't thought, like, in the 70s, you know, like, I got handed off as a baby in a parking lot, you know, and signed some forms.
Speaker A:Like that was it, you know, so it's just thinking about that, too, like that how IVF was actually a cheaper option than adoption.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Very different processes today.
Speaker B:A lot More restrictions.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think however people pursue their family is going to be the right option for them.
Speaker B:But it does get complicated when we do have all these options.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And, you know, I think that, again, going into ivf, I know I would always look at people who would try get pregnant and have a baby, and then they're just like, in this, they're just parenting.
Speaker B:And I just would look at them with awe and be like, what must that be like to just, like, get pregnant and then just have a baby?
Speaker B:Like, I was like, it is such a different experience for me.
Speaker B:And it felt almost magical to see those people walk around.
Speaker B:And many times, you know, and I actually don't think I talked a lot about this in the episode, but there's so many deep feelings of resentment that come up.
Speaker B:And, like, some of the thoughts that I would have, I would see people out with babies and think, like, what them?
Speaker B:Why do they get that right?
Speaker B:And, you know, it just really changes you into a different person.
Speaker B:And I had to work very hard to crawl out of those deep feelings of resentment and jealousy and bitterness towards, like, a more of an accepting attitude, which I think helped in the long run.
Speaker B:But, you know, it's so deeply complex, and everybody's journey is going to be different and everybody's going to feel differently.
Speaker B:But I think the commonality here is that the more we talk about our experiences, the more we let people know that, you know, they aren't alone in this.
Speaker B:I think it's helpful because I did feel very alone.
Speaker B:I did feel very isolated.
Speaker B:I felt like my feelings.
Speaker B:And I think many people go through this, like, the depth of despair feels unique to you, so it can be very isolating.
Speaker B:So I do hope if, you know, there's only one person out there that feels seen and heard and cared for through this series, then it will have been worth it.
Speaker A:Yes, and I'm sure there will be.
Speaker A:And then that's why we do a lot of the things that we do on the Women's Performance podcast.
Speaker A:And I think a lot of people are going to relate to this.
Speaker A:And we.
Speaker A:We all know that so many women and men and couples have.
Speaker A:Have these types of journeys.
Speaker A:So thank you so much for this conversation in particular.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker B:Today I'm being joined by Alexander Stewart, who works as a registered clinical counselor and is the co owner of the group counseling practice, Illuminate Counseling in North Vancouver, British Columbia, in Canada.
Speaker B:She's a Perinatal Mental Health certified practitioner and has over 10 years of experience in the area of reproductive mental health, including fertility, pregnancy, and postpartum challenges.
Speaker B:Alexandra has also had her own experiences with fertility challenges, pregnancy loss, and fertility treatments, and is now the mother of two young children.
Speaker B:So welcome, Alexandra.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:Happy to be here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm so glad we could connect today.
Speaker B:I wanted to start off with just talking to you from one person to another on your own fertility challenges and what your journey and what your story looked like and, you know, how that fits into your practice today.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Happy to share.
Speaker C:It was interesting because I started working in the field of reproductive mental health before I even went through my own fertility challenges.
Speaker C:So even doing that work, nothing can really prepare you for actually going through it yourself.
Speaker C:You know, I think I'm sure it helped in some ways to help me understand what I was going through.
Speaker C:But, yeah, I was well into my practice, and my partner and I decided that we wanted to start trying for a family.
Speaker C:The same old story.
Speaker C:You stop contraception, you're like, okay, it's going to happen soon.
Speaker C:Probably it might not, but I think especially most people I've talked to, they think it's going to happen, I don't know, within a few months.
Speaker C:That's the hope.
Speaker C:That wasn't happening.
Speaker C:I got some testing done.
Speaker C:I think we had been trying for, like, eight cycles or something like that.
Speaker C:And I just, I think, you know, because I work in this field, I was like, okay, let's just get some testing done, see what's going on.
Speaker C:It turns out I had diminished ovarian reserve.
Speaker C:And so I think that was the first part of my journey where I was like, ooh, like a big blow.
Speaker C:You know, you don't expect that.
Speaker C:So I had to process that.
Speaker C:And then shortly after that, I found out I was pregnant.
Speaker C:So I was like, oh, okay, I don't have to worry about this.
Speaker C:And then about 10 weeks into my pregnancy, I went for a second ultrasound.
Speaker C:So I had my first dating scan.
Speaker C:The baby was measuring a bit small.
Speaker C:I went for my second one, and we found out we had a missed miscarriage.
Speaker C:So that was a huge piece of grief and trauma.
Speaker C:I think in my whole experience, we.
Speaker C:Without getting into all the details because, you know, like, there's a lot of details.
Speaker C:But I ended up having a surgical procedure where I had to have the pregnancy tissue removed.
Speaker C:And then that didn't work fully.
Speaker C:So then.
Speaker C:So it was like months afterwards of just.
Speaker C:Of all this medical stuff happening.
Speaker C:And then.
Speaker C:Yeah, and then I was just hit by that deep grief that of course, happens after a miscarriage when we got the clear to go ahead and try.
Speaker C:Then we did and we tried on our own for a while.
Speaker C:And because of my diminished ovarian reserve and because we wanted to have more than one child ideally, we actually decided to start going through the fertility treatment route, you know, try to get, see if we can get some embryos.
Speaker C:And I again, knowing working in this field, I knew that time is of the essence, especially when you have diminished ovarian reserve.
Speaker C:So yeah, I connected with a local clinic here, Olive Fertility center, and we did ivf.
Speaker C:And again, there were some bumps along the way.
Speaker C:You know, unexpected things happened, but we were really fortunate to get pregnant on our first transfer.
Speaker B:Oh, that's so wonderful.
Speaker C:Oh yeah, because I had convinced myself that it wasn't gonna work.
Speaker C:Yeah, just, you know, when you've had some pitfalls along the way, it changes things.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You get really self protective.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so I have a three year old son from, from that transfer and, and then unexpectedly, you know, we, we were gearing up to do another transfer when we were ready to start trying for a second.
Speaker C:And then I was again super fortunate to get pregnant on my own with, with my second.
Speaker C:So that again, unexpected but very welcome.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So yeah, that in a nutshell is my fertility.
Speaker C:It's, I think relatively to what I've been exposed to.
Speaker C:It's, I mean, grief and trauma tossed in throughout there.
Speaker C:But I've also, I feel relatively lucky that I had this outcome that I did and it didn't go on for like five years of, you know, being in the fertility treatment.
Speaker C:Like I know it can for some people.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Definitely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that's.
Speaker C:Yeah, so that's me in a nutshell.
Speaker B:Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker B:Yeah, we have some similar experiences there.
Speaker B:I also, I had a miscarriage and we found out at it was 14 weeks and.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that it was.
Speaker B:It's been an interesting journey and you know, I want to sort of get into some of this stuff, but I think like, let's start at the beginning with the idea of just coming to accept the need to pursue ivf because I think, and I talked about this with another guest, is that when we go into ivf, I think a lot of people think of it as this sort of miracle medical procedure.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And it's like, well, this didn't work, so IVF will.
Speaker B:And I think that's one of the things that I'd love to clear up for most people is that it's a bit of a crapshoot and it doesn't work out.
Speaker B:For everyone.
Speaker B:I actually was one of those people that was in fertility treatments for six years.
Speaker B:Six years.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Six years, 11 transfers.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so it's been.
Speaker B:I've, like, had.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's, like, it's given me a depth of experience in terms of the different types of procedures that are tried and the different types of pregnancy that you can experience in the different types of loss and.
Speaker B:And the different types of disappointment.
Speaker B:And so I've got a pretty, like, strong resume when it comes to infertility.
Speaker B:But can you talk to me a little bit about how when you are speaking to somebody who is coming to terms with either having to pursue IVF and maybe more on the range of people who are needing to use donation mechanisms so either a sperm donor or an egg donation.
Speaker B:And I know that this can be part of people's journey as well.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Both of those things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah, I see.
Speaker C:I think there's definitely commonalities and what I've seen in working with people where there's the initial resistance as you.
Speaker C:As you come into this process of, okay, we need to take the next step, which is ivf, you know, for some or for just fertility treatments in general.
Speaker C:I do see mixed responses, though.
Speaker C:Like you said, for some people, it's this, okay, well, this is.
Speaker C:We're going to do IVF and it's going to work.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Like, it's kind of like almost a sense of relief, too, that, okay, I don't have to go in this alone anymore.
Speaker C:I have this team of specialists and doctors who are going to help support me now towards my goal.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And, yeah, there is that societal thing around.
Speaker C:It's IVF is the plan B.
Speaker C:And plan B works, right?
Speaker C:Because I just don't.
Speaker C:Because there's just not a lot of knowledge around that about what it.
Speaker C:What it actually looks like.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I'd say some initial relief.
Speaker C:I've also worked with some people where there's just.
Speaker C:There's a lot of resistance towards actually the acceptance around.
Speaker C:Okay, I think we need to consider this as an option.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So, yeah, so I've.
Speaker C:I've seen both, and I think I'll kind of maybe speak a bit more to what I see more often, which is that sense of relief when they finally get into the referral process, because there's long waits, of course, and you have a doctor who's like, okay, I think this is our plan moving forward.
Speaker C:And then you start.
Speaker C:And like you said, it doesn't always go according to plan.
Speaker C:Like, for some People, it can be pretty straightforward, and that's great.
Speaker C:It's kind of like they're in there, out in the fertility clinic in a relatively short time, if you want to call it that.
Speaker C:And then for some people, they're in it for the long haul, and they're in it quite a long time, and they become, like, an expert at fertility treatments.
Speaker C:So, yeah, that initial process, I'd say, differs for everybody.
Speaker C:And then once you're in.
Speaker B:Just gets.
Speaker C:Complicated, depending on what you've endured and what you've experienced, because there's a lot of grief.
Speaker C:Have you found that in.
Speaker C:In the process?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think, like, there's.
Speaker B:It's this very continual process of grieving.
Speaker B:For me, it started with.
Speaker B:And I spoke about this on another episode, but, like, I knew I had a problem.
Speaker B:I was also starting when I was 36, so I already knew I had a problem.
Speaker B:I also had low ovarian reserves, very low amh, which just essentially determines the health and age of your eggs.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:They just told me that I had shitty old eggs, and I'm gonna have to, like, figure something out.
Speaker B:And I tried with my own eggs twice and once with my sister's eggs, which was also a very fraught experience.
Speaker B:You know, for me, it started when I was told that I would likely not be able to have my own biological children.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there was a couple emotions there.
Speaker B:One was the disappointment of, like, not being able to do this, you know, through my own.
Speaker B:With my own genes.
Speaker B:And then the other was, like, kind of like being like, this shouldn't matter that much, and like, being like, hey, like, you know, not.
Speaker B:That doesn't matter.
Speaker B:So I remember specifically the day that I was told that, and I.
Speaker B:You know, we went through a lot of different processes because, you know, there's a lot of financial consideration when you're doing something like egg donation, because if you know the person, it needs to be a pretty specific personality.
Speaker B:And then if you don't know the person, it's very strange.
Speaker B:And I did do this where I was sent to a website and I was scrolling through people's profiles and being like, could she be the person that, like, do I want to look at this face?
Speaker B:Like, it was just, like, the weirdest.
Speaker B:And then you're, like, mixed up with grief and trying to process this.
Speaker B:But as you said, time is of the essence.
Speaker B:And, like, I think this is something that I really didn't understand going into IVF is that time is the enemy.
Speaker B:And, you know, we operate on cycles and we operate on body readiness.
Speaker B:And in between those times, there's often, as it was for my case, a lot of medical trauma.
Speaker B:So a lot of, like, scraping out of uteruses and blowing out fallopian tubes and letting the body heal from that in order to, like, prepare the body for it and, you know, waiting for hormones to work and, you know, just all of this stuff that, like, you're so ill prepared for.
Speaker C:And the waiting is hard.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it really grinds you down.
Speaker B:And I think there's like.
Speaker B:I think people can understand the grief associated with a miscarriage and pregnancy loss, but there's this more abstract idea around, time will be your enemy, hope will be your enemy, doubt, and, like, immense feelings of failing as, like, Like a woman, as a.
Speaker B:As a person who you've been told your whole life you're supposed to reproduce.
Speaker B:And so I went through, and I again, had a lot of experience coming to understand these different sort of textures of grief and still grapple a lot with that.
Speaker B:But the idea of time for me was challenging because I gave birth to my second at 42, and time does run out for us.
Speaker C:So there are biological realities.
Speaker B:Yes, there are.
Speaker B:There are.
Speaker B:But, yeah.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:I really, like, I think for me, when I started to understand that we need to go into ivf, I was excited, right?
Speaker B:I was like, great, this is something that's going to work for me.
Speaker B:And then when I was just told, like, no, like, the essential components that we need to make this work just aren't there for you.
Speaker B:That's so scary, right?
Speaker B:And the idea of, like, going into adoption was always on the table for us, right?
Speaker B:And we had actually started that process of going through into adoption.
Speaker B:And then we just had this person, this person, this wonderful person walk into our lives.
Speaker B:We knew her, she was very tangential to our lives and knew that we were struggling with fertility and had a daughter of her own.
Speaker B:She was 27.
Speaker B:And she stepped up and said, I want to do this for you.
Speaker B:And it was funny because I'd had a few friends be like, no, no, I'll do it for you.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:But, like, they were my age, so I was like, like, maybe not.
Speaker C:I don't want your eggs.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, thank you so much for the offer.
Speaker B:But it wasn't even just that.
Speaker B:It was like.
Speaker B:Because then you ask the questions, right?
Speaker B:And you might know this.
Speaker B:And I don't know if you do this type of counseling is like, when you have an egg donor, they're required to go through a therapy session to really understand that this is a good match.
Speaker B:And so I had done that with my sister, and funnily enough, the therapist was like, your sister is not a good match.
Speaker B:Didn't have kids of her own, and just didn't have, like, a really clear concept of, like, how this was going to shake out.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:We actually did end up using her egg after.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's a bit.
Speaker B:That's a more complicated story.
Speaker B:But we had this woman come to us, and, you know, it was a really.
Speaker B:A perfect fit for us because we didn't know her too well, but she was very, you know, just sort of like, I'm here.
Speaker B:I'm gonna.
Speaker B:I'm gonna do this.
Speaker C:That's incredibly generous.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And she turned out to be.
Speaker B:I'll never forget it.
Speaker B:My doctor called when she did the retrieval, and he's like, well, we have a little Easter bunny on our hands.
Speaker B:And I was like, okay, maybe don't use that word.
Speaker B:But she produced 38 eggs.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Which is.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:They're like, we've never seen this before.
Speaker B:This is crazy.
Speaker B:And we ended up fertilizing 18 embryos.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it was very.
Speaker B:Like, that was so great.
Speaker B:And, you know, we do see her, and she does see our kids, and I watch her interact, and she will come up and be like, oh, hey, cool.
Speaker B:And then just be fine with it.
Speaker B:And I'm like, this is.
Speaker B:I would not be okay with this.
Speaker B:I would be like, this is crazy.
Speaker B:These are my kids.
Speaker B:So we're.
Speaker B:We're so grateful for that.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let's talk a little bit about this idea of hope.
Speaker B:It's a concept that I have struggled with deeply, and I think is one of the things that makes this process so challenging.
Speaker B:Can you speak on that a little bit?
Speaker C:This comes up pretty much with every person I work with going through fertility treatments is.
Speaker C:It's like hope starts to become the enemy.
Speaker C:You know, they feel.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Almost hateful towards the hope, but you still have it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:There always needs to be a sliver of hope.
Speaker C:Otherwise, you wouldn't keep doing this and putting yourself through this process.
Speaker C:Because I think once you get into it, looking from an outsider looking in would be like, why would you put your body through that?
Speaker C:And why would you put yourself through that emotionally, especially when it's been going on for a long time?
Speaker C:So the hope is what keeps you going.
Speaker C:And the hope is it's the dream.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's the future that you've envisioned.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And it's a complicated relationship.
Speaker C:Like, you Said, there's this thing that we do in therapy.
Speaker C:It's an approach.
Speaker C:It's called parts work.
Speaker C:And so sometimes we think of the hope as the separate entity.
Speaker C:Like, it's a separate part of you, but it's just a part.
Speaker C:And there's all these other parts that show up throughout this process that, you know, there's the bitter, resentful part of you too.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:The part that's like, why is this hard for me?
Speaker C:And it's so easy for everybody else.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And there's another part that's just exhausted.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, they're just like, I am in survival mode, and, you know, I'm ready to give up, which competes with the hopeful part.
Speaker C:Because the hopeful part is like, I'm.
Speaker C:Come on, you guys.
Speaker C:Like, let's rally.
Speaker C:Like, this is gonna work this time or so.
Speaker C:So sometimes it can be helpful to think about it in that way.
Speaker C:For some people, as they're in.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:It's just.
Speaker C:It's just a part of you.
Speaker C:But, yeah, the hope is.
Speaker C:Is a tricky one.
Speaker C:Like, what.
Speaker C:What would you say your experience was with.
Speaker B:With that hope through?
Speaker B:Yeah, I.
Speaker B:So I really experience deep feelings of resentment and bitterness and anger towards the hope.
Speaker B:It felt like this quite an insidious part of me.
Speaker B:And I've often spoken about infertility as.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:It's a form of insanity.
Speaker B:And you do get into this cycle of trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Speaker C:Mm.
Speaker B:And I really did, at times, drive myself insane.
Speaker B:I mean, I really.
Speaker B:Particularly on our second tries, after we got pregnant on the first try with our egg donor's egg.
Speaker B:And so when we went back in, when my son was just over one and we got pregnant with.
Speaker B:We had a misfire.
Speaker B:And then we got pregnant on the second round.
Speaker B:And I remember, like.
Speaker B:I just remember being like, we did it.
Speaker B:Like, we.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The numbers came back great.
Speaker B:Everything felt good.
Speaker B:And, like, it was just, like, I just was oblivious.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And what I didn't see barreling behind me was going to be this really horrific miscarriage.
Speaker B:And I remember just being, like, so optimistic and so hopeful, and I started showing really early, and my cousin and his wife, we were, like, literally a week apart with our pregnancies, and it was, like, just so exciting.
Speaker B:And I just remember it felt like getting hit in the face with a baseball bat.
Speaker B:And that made me so angry and so bitter towards all these processes, and how could I have taken for granted, you know, this thing?
Speaker B:And why did I dare Think that I would get away with something that was simple and easy.
Speaker B:And I really struggled with the idea of what do I deserve?
Speaker B:And this is, like, a concept that I really grapple with is like, is there a point where I suffer enough that I earn myself a baby?
Speaker C:Ah, yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, like, I did.
Speaker B:I drove myself to complete exhaustion.
Speaker B:And, you know, I was extremely isolated.
Speaker B:And I am the type of person who will push through, and I always push through.
Speaker B:And it almost felt like mechanical at.
Speaker B:Towards the end, where it was, like, didn't work.
Speaker B:Go again, miscarry.
Speaker B:Go again, go again, go again.
Speaker B:Into out of embryos.
Speaker B:Like, I just.
Speaker B:I couldn't leave eggs on the table.
Speaker B:And then I heard this.
Speaker B:There's a great podcast, and if people are interested in learning more about some of these nuances of infertility, there's a really wonderful podcast that came out through the New York Times called the Retrievals.
Speaker B:And that was a very impactful story, and it has some other themes associated with it.
Speaker B:But something that was said in that story really resonated with me, which is like, why.
Speaker B:Why do women.
Speaker B:Or why do people put themselves through the immense pain, the physical pain, the mental torture, the extreme exhaustion?
Speaker B:Why do people do this in order to get to this place of I have my children?
Speaker B:And you said something earlier that really emphasizes this point, which is, we're already mothers.
Speaker B:We are fighting for our children right now.
Speaker B:We have already come to grips with what these children will be and what they will look like and what our lives will look like and the love and the joy that will be afforded.
Speaker B:And then my only job is to get them.
Speaker B:I have to get them right, and I have to save them.
Speaker B:And, you know, that is where I found these deep reserves of.
Speaker B:I don't even know if I would call it resilience, because that feels like too much of a shiny word to apply to it.
Speaker B:It was just like, you know, parents will walk through hell for their children, and whether or not you have them in your arms doesn't mean you wouldn't do that anyways.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And right.
Speaker C:Your journey just started a little earlier in terms of that than some people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that really helps me make sense of why we do what we do and how we get through it.
Speaker B:And that is not to say at all that people that choose to exit their fertility journey wouldn't do that for their children.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's just that that was my experience, and that really, really resonated with me.
Speaker C:I like that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think that there is such a.
Speaker B:I always admired people who were willing to exit and say, because it is.
Speaker C:That is not easy.
Speaker B:I lost hope towards the end, and I was just moving through things because I was like, I am not leaving eggs out there.
Speaker C:11 transfers is no joke, right?
Speaker C:Like, that's.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:It's pretty.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is a lot.
Speaker B:And, you know, that year was incredibly difficult.
Speaker B:And, you know, I barely had time to mourn, you know, the baby that we lost.
Speaker B:And, you know, and it was kind of during the pandemic, and it was something that I had to endure by myself, which was also very, very challenging.
Speaker B:And being in.
Speaker B:When I went into the.
Speaker B:To the hospital to have what they call a dnc, which is to remove that.
Speaker B:The tissue.
Speaker B:Being in that room with.
Speaker B:They have other people who are scheduled for their own either dncs and sometimes abortions.
Speaker B:And I remember sitting across from a really young girl, probably like a teenager and her mom, and they had this.
Speaker B:This, like, demeanor of, like, relief and joy about them that told me that they were there to terminate a.
Speaker B:An unwanted pregnancy.
Speaker B:And I was sitting directly across from them, and I was so greas.
Speaker B:Stick.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I kept on watching it, and I just, like, I just couldn't keep it together.
Speaker B:And I just had to ask nurse, I'm like, I need you to close, like, my curtains.
Speaker B:And I need, like, yeah, I need to get this done.
Speaker C:Like, just like, rubbing it in your face, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And like, they didn't know.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's like, fine.
Speaker B:Like, of course they could.
Speaker B:You know, that's what is needed then.
Speaker B:Go ahead and.
Speaker B:Yeah, but, yeah, I think that a lot of the unseen trauma that comes with the road to finally conceiving is very fraught.
Speaker B:And I think often when people walk that road of fertility long enough, the trauma kind of blends all into its.
Speaker B:Into itself, right?
Speaker B:Because you're like, oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And then that happened and you're like, oh, my God, not happening.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I had this shitty doctor.
Speaker B:And like, oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Somebody said something to me that was like, super hurtful.
Speaker B:And like, you know, it's just like.
Speaker B:It's this compounding factor.
Speaker B:And at the end, I was just like a shell.
Speaker B:Shell of a person.
Speaker C:So, of course, yeah, it's a marathon.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker C:And then if you have your desired outcome, which is a live baby at the end now you have to deal with a baby.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And all that comes with that.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:You know what's.
Speaker C:You know what's interesting, Jill, is sometimes we won't even see people in our therapy practice until like six months a year.
Speaker C:Like, however, like a lot, a lot of time has passed because you're just in survival mode for so long and then finally you have a moment to breathe and you're just like, what did I just go through?
Speaker C:Like, what just happened to me for the last few years?
Speaker C:And you just don't have the ability, you process and digest it a little bit in the moment.
Speaker C:But there's also this, this aftershock that can happen for people where it's, it's a lot to process.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker B:I'd like to shift now to how to cope in a relationship while going through this.
Speaker B:I'm sure you see a lot of this coming through your practice, but I know that IVF can put a strain on relationships and infertility because it's typically happening to one person in the relationship and the other person sort of has to carry that load.
Speaker B:Can you talk a little bit about like, what you see between partners and couples, what some of those outcomes are and how people try to cope with that during their IVF process?
Speaker C:We refer to it as the pressure cooker because, you know, like, we all go through challenging times in a, in a relationship, especially a long term relationship, and going through fertility challenges and, or loss is going to be one of those, those roadblocks in your relationship.
Speaker C:I think for most people, some people, it brings them closer together in many ways and that's great.
Speaker C:And, and yet there probably is still going to be some, you know, some roadblocks within that experience.
Speaker C:So, so we call it the pressure cooker.
Speaker C:There's, there's financial stress, there's communication stress, there's treatment burden, which you were talking about.
Speaker C:So typically one person experiences the burden and the invasiveness of all the, the treatment.
Speaker C:So it can feel like a sense of inequity.
Speaker C:There can be sometimes familial pressures.
Speaker C:There's, you know, it also can highlight and magnify existing relationship stressors that were there.
Speaker C:Kind of like having a child with somebody too, right?
Speaker C:Is.
Speaker C:It just can kind of magnify issues that were already there in the relationship.
Speaker C:And so it's a lot of stress.
Speaker C:And for some couples, as they navigate through this, it kind of, it forces them to communicate in a way that perhaps they haven't had to before.
Speaker C:You know, especially if this is their first major obstacle in their relationship, for some people can be really, it can become really contentious.
Speaker C:Some people, it just, they feel like they kind of just drift apart.
Speaker C:So I think the, the Impacts and what that looks like can be.
Speaker C:Can vary.
Speaker C:But in terms of what can be helpful for couples is, and we hear this so much with any kind of challenge within a relationship is the communication piece.
Speaker C:Actually, you know what I'm going to take a step back, actually, even before that, I think, is for a couple to understand what they're going through, like normalizing how hard this is and that this isn't.
Speaker C:It's not just you as a couple who maybe you feel like you're kind of failing if you're not getting along or, you know, if there's lots of fights or whatever.
Speaker C:Like, it's more so normalizing that this is hard for everybody who is going through something similar to you.
Speaker C:And that can feel, I think, just really validating, almost relieving for a lot of couples because some people do think, oh, we're having stressors and we're having fights and arguments, or we're feeling so distant now, like how maybe we're not meant to be parents together.
Speaker C:That comes up a lot.
Speaker C:So I think just a couple understanding and normalizing how this actually impacts people going through it can be.
Speaker C:Can go a long way.
Speaker C:At least that's what we do when they come see us in our office.
Speaker C:And then the communication piece is huge.
Speaker C:Just starting from the really basic elements of how are you doing?
Speaker C:Checking in.
Speaker C:How is this actually impacting you?
Speaker C:Because like you said, we're in it.
Speaker C:It almost can become robotic operational, that we don't always slow down and pause to say, how am I actually doing?
Speaker C:How's this impacting me?
Speaker C:And you need to do that for both people.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Because even for the person who has the treatment burden on them, the other partner is having an experience too, of some kind.
Speaker C:So that's huge.
Speaker C:Whether you can do that on your own, great.
Speaker C:If not, then you get someone to help you.
Speaker C:So maybe it is a therapist just to have a checkpoint where you can just touch base, have the time to actually slow down and check in with each other.
Speaker C:So that can go a long way too.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:It's just getting some insight into the other person's world.
Speaker C:How are they being impacted by this?
Speaker C:And so you feel like you're not so alone in it, because that is something that we hear a lot.
Speaker C:And I know you mentioned you were feeling alone in it as well.
Speaker C:There's also, you know, different things people will do, like taking a fertility break and that, you know, there's a lot, probably a lot of emotion behind that when you hear that.
Speaker C:But that can look so many different Ways that might mean that, you know, what, for the next week, we're just not talking about anything related to fertility treatments.
Speaker C:You can still be going through the motions, but we're just not just not gonna make that the bulk of our conversation.
Speaker C:You know, little.
Speaker C:Little strategies like that sometimes can help just get you through the marathon of it.
Speaker C:So I don't know, is that sort of answering what you are?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I, like, I'm always just interested.
Speaker B:Like, we.
Speaker B:We survived.
Speaker B:We're still married.
Speaker B:Glad to hear that.
Speaker B:And like, we had.
Speaker B:Yeah, it wasn't like, until that we were a little bit deeper in it.
Speaker B:And I think that we sort of moved in lockstep for a lot of this stuff.
Speaker B:And, you know, because we both had the same goals.
Speaker B:And I think also, like, expectation setting with a partner can be really helpful.
Speaker B:And, you know, we had been given the advice like, pick the number of transfers you're willing to walk together in.
Speaker B:And I think that that was really helpful for us because we just knew that we had both signed up for that.
Speaker B:Now, there was a period of time where my husband was like, listen, I don't want to keep doing this, and I want a baby as much as you do.
Speaker B:And he was kind of like, I'm going to support you because it kind of sounds like you're going to do this no matter what.
Speaker B:But just know that I'm stepping out of the hope, and I'm going to move into acceptance that we are not having a second child.
Speaker B:And I was like, okay, like, great.
Speaker B:I am just like, I'm gonna go do this thing.
Speaker B:And like, he was great.
Speaker B:And like, we certainly had our moments, and we did seek counseling for that.
Speaker B:But, you know, it was.
Speaker B:You're right about the communication piece where he was able to say, like, I can't be in this mentally and emotionally with you anymore.
Speaker B:I don't have capacity.
Speaker B:This is my limit.
Speaker B:But I'm going to be here for you as much as I can be.
Speaker B:And like, great self awareness, great communication.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then, you know, I think it was.
Speaker B:He certainly struggled with the, like, the pain that I was going through in this sort of, like.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Repetition of going through cycles.
Speaker B:And that comes up a lot.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Seeing your partner hurting so much.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And just because I would push through so many different procedures and, you know, I think that there's, you know, I'm sure many women have experienced this, is that a lot of procedures that are related to any type of reproductive help often don't come with the right amount of Anesthetic.
Speaker B:So there's a lot of, like, physical pain and, like, just being really shocked at how bad things are going.
Speaker B:And so he also trying to keep him informed on, like, what's happening with my body.
Speaker B:Like, you know, and I mean, sex is such an interesting topic with IVF and just, like, trying to have a baby, because, like, we tried for quite a while alone, and man, like, sucked.
Speaker C:It's not sexy anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I remember I went out and got, like, some, like, lingerie and stuff, and I was like, well, here I am.
Speaker B:And he was just like, yeah, like, let's go again.
Speaker B:Like, what's your temperature?
Speaker B:Like, what time does it want?
Speaker C:Like, yeah, pants off.
Speaker C:Let's go.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It was like, it was.
Speaker B:It really challenges then when you're in cycles as well, and you're in a constant state of either being pregnant or losing a pregnancy or you're on hormones that have made you, like, extremely bloated and irritable.
Speaker B:And, like, I mean, it's just.
Speaker B:It wrecks everything.
Speaker B:It really wrecks everything.
Speaker B:And, like, so, you know, we.
Speaker B:I think the deeper we got into ivf, the less of a chance we were going to have any type of surprise pregnancy, which, you know, you hear a lot about as people do ivf and then they get, like, you know, pregnant on the side.
Speaker B:And so we went through such a period of, like, we just weren't having sex and.
Speaker B:Because, like, it was just, like, I was solely focused on, you know, I was running a business at that point, and I was trying to exit the business.
Speaker B:So it was just like a very stressful period.
Speaker B:So I'm grappling with, like, trying to run this business down and get it sold, and then also trying to do ivf, and it was just like, we're all coming out of the pandemic and we've got supply chain stuff, and it's just like, it was such a.
Speaker B:A fraught time for us.
Speaker B:Um, but, you know, I will say this.
Speaker B:I mean, for me at least, I.
Speaker B:I really enjoy my pregnancies, and we were able to enjoy that.
Speaker B:I actually just, like, did not pay attention to the pregnancy until it was so obvious.
Speaker B:I think I was, like, six months pregnant before I was even, like, confirming I was pregnant.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think a lot of women going.
Speaker B:To lose it any second, right?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But yeah, and I think that there's, like, this.
Speaker B:You know, I've been so lucky in my relationship, and part of my story is, like, both my husband and I have been in recovery from addiction for 15 years.
Speaker B:So we have a pretty, like, solid foundation for language and communication.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that that has really helped us through, is that we have really good support systems and we have, like, foundational knowledge of, like, open and caring communication.
Speaker C:And we've already been through some big stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah, we've been through the gauntlet before, so.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I think that, you know, the coming back together in terms of, like, a relationship has been really great for us.
Speaker B:You know, we're out of having kids, and my.
Speaker B:The kids are sort of.
Speaker B:I'm not in the newborn phase anymore, and he got a vasectomy.
Speaker B:And I, of course.
Speaker B:Of course, hit perimenopause, like, almost exactly two years after I gave birth to Louisa.
Speaker C:You don't get a break.
Speaker C:Aces.
Speaker B:But we've been so lucky to, like, have this really, like, we've come back together in terms of our sex life in a way that, like, we just never experienced before because all of the pressure is off.
Speaker B:Like, we got married, we were able to travel and do that stuff, and then we went straight into this.
Speaker B:Like, we were married for, like, a while before we went into this.
Speaker B:But then it was just this, like, period of time.
Speaker B:It's like six years, and now all the pressure is off.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah, Jill, it's.
Speaker C:I think that's.
Speaker C:It's so important that you bring that up because it is something.
Speaker C:It is sort of one of those topics that people feel like sometimes can be a bit taboo or maybe it's, like, not the most important thing to talk about right now as you're in it.
Speaker C:But if you think.
Speaker C:Think about it, it makes.
Speaker C:It makes perfect sense that intimacy is on the back burner during that time.
Speaker C:Because if you think about it from a nervous system perspective, you are in survival mode.
Speaker C:You are in fight or flight mode.
Speaker C:And to be able to slow down and connect and be intimate with your partner, that requires your nervous system to.
Speaker C:That protective part of our nervous system to take a step back a little bit, to feel safe enough to slow down, to then turn and be present and connect with our partner in a specific way.
Speaker C:So you're like, yeah, now that the pressure is off and our family is complete and, you know, you can get to that place again where intimacy in the way that you desire it is possible.
Speaker C:And sometimes we will say to couples, you know, intimacy, when you're going through this period, it's going to shift.
Speaker C:You know, finding other ways to connect with your person, finding other ways to create even just a little bit of intimacy is probably more realistic.
Speaker C:So taking the pressure off, and that might mean you sit on the couch together at the end of the day, and you're.
Speaker C:You're touching, your bodies are touching, and you're watching a show together because that might be all.
Speaker C:All the capacity that you have.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So, yeah, like, re working.
Speaker C:What intimacy looks like during that time is probably just more realistic because you don't want to put more pressure on anything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think it's, like, important to acknowledge, too, is like, any.
Speaker B:Any partnership that goes through this, like, your relationship will change.
Speaker B:Like, it will undergo changes.
Speaker B:Like, it's not.
Speaker B:I mean, you would probably do it anyways, but this is like, you know, we.
Speaker B:I've met people who are like, we did two rounds and we divorced.
Speaker B:We were done.
Speaker B:And like.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But for them, it was positive, right?
Speaker B:Because they were just like, hey, we.
Speaker B:We didn't do well in this together.
Speaker C:It's the trial, right, for being a parent.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:And I think, like, I wish more people understood, like, and I think it's so tough.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think I.
Speaker B:I've been hammering this home a bit.
Speaker B:It's just like, the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The breadth of the emotional and physical commitments that IVF and solving infertility requires is so deep, and it's so hard to get your arms around before you walk into it.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And I think it's important that people know is like, you are going to walk into some pretty abrupt walls.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter.
Speaker B:You'll think that you've got it dialed, and then it's going to be like this whole other thing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And, you know, having come out of this and not quite, you know, going into it and just thinking it's so hard to recognize when you're in it is that, like, your relationship with your physical body and your mental self is so deeply impacted.
Speaker B:And, you know, I'm always so, like, I love when I hear people are like, we did one round and it worked.
Speaker B:And I'm just like.
Speaker B:Like this.
Speaker B:It's so nice to hear.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because I just know that that is.
Speaker B:That can be such a relief.
Speaker C:But is there still a part of you, though, that feels another way to like that, you know, that part of you, that bitter or resentful part.
Speaker B:Is she.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And, you know, this is what I will say, and this is just.
Speaker B:My experience is like, when you hold your baby, it wipes the slate clean.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:It wiped the slate clean for me.
Speaker B:And I am.
Speaker B:I'm grateful for the trials that I went through.
Speaker B:I'm Grateful that I can share my story with people and be like, you know, yes, it's hard, and, yes, these are the things that you need to look out for.
Speaker B:But, like, and where whenever you want to get off the merry go round, you go ahead and get off.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Everybody needs to do what's right for themselves.
Speaker B:But because of my deep experience with this, I may be able to offer some.
Speaker B:Some guidance and some.
Speaker B:Some insight into what treating infertility really looks and feels like.
Speaker B:Because I think that was, like.
Speaker B:I kind of feel like I want to shout it from the rooftops.
Speaker B:Is like, it is never going to go the way you think it's going to go.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's like this great mystery, and it is.
Speaker B:You know, I often really struggled with this idea of, you know, the success rates at clinics.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And in our other episode, we talked to an IVF doctor and.
Speaker B:And she was, you know, said, like, these.
Speaker B:These success rates do matter.
Speaker B:But I was kind of always like, right, but isn't it just, like, you guys are kind of all doing the same treatments?
Speaker B:And also, you know, there's, like, a lot of it depends on the condition of the woman's body at the moment of transfer.
Speaker B:And so I, like, I feel like there's just so many unknowns at work here.
Speaker B:And there are certainly, like, really fantastic fertility clinics that do have great success rates, and I would highly suggest people pursue that for your best chances.
Speaker B:But I also, I want people to understand that there is, like, be prepared for some of the.
Speaker B:The surprises along the way.
Speaker B:And, you know, I.
Speaker B:I have, like, such a deep gratitude.
Speaker B:We had one nurse at our fertility clinic here in Victoria, Larisa, and I would not have gotten through this without her.
Speaker B:She just had this wonderful and caring demeanor.
Speaker B:And it only takes one practitioner doesn't have to be the doctor because God knows, I had a few doctors.
Speaker C:Do you even see them or talk to them?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah, I did have one really magnificent doctor.
Speaker B:And just, you know, I was a doctor actually at Olive.
Speaker B:He was at a different practice before, but I had a real ability to hold space and grieve with patients, which I found really deeply touching.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And on the other end, I had a doctor that was at the same practice that was like, yep.
Speaker B:So, yeah, this practice is not gonna work out.
Speaker B:Like, you gotta go get some pills for it, and I'll see you later.
Speaker B:And I'm just gonna leave you naked on this table.
Speaker B:Like, can I just in here for, like, an hour before I leave?
Speaker B:So, like, I think there's, you know, it runs the gamut.
Speaker B:And, like, sometimes you want somebody that's very clinical and is going to get direct to the point, and sometimes you want somebody who's going to be emotionally attached to your process and, you know, just depends on who you are.
Speaker B:But I think, you know, I am forever grateful.
Speaker B:We are now elder parents of young children.
Speaker B:My husband is 50 this year, and we basically, like, work out just to, like, keep up with these kids.
Speaker B:But, yeah, we're grateful all the time for it.
Speaker B:And, you know, I.
Speaker B:I have no regrets on my process at all.
Speaker B:I do wish it had been easier, but if it had been easier, I would not have the incredible kids that I have now.
Speaker B:And they're.
Speaker B:They are who they are.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker C:And you are who you are.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Because of it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker C:That's important.
Speaker C:That deep transformational change that happens for so many people going through this.
Speaker C:And it's hard when you're in it because you don't know what the outcome is going to be and where you're going to land.
Speaker C:And then when you're out of it, yeah, there can be a deep appreciation and gratitude for, like, that was really hard.
Speaker C:And I learned some things.
Speaker C:You know, I learned about myself.
Speaker C:I learned about the world.
Speaker C:I learned, like you said, things don't always go according to plan.
Speaker C:And in the fertility realm, that's kind of the motto, you know, like, you can't guarantee really anything.
Speaker B:And I do want to take a minute to, like, honor any person that's listening to this that, you know, did not continue their journey and, you know, got off the merry go round and decided to live their life without children and how, like, how difficult that can be and that takes its own type of resolve and strength.
Speaker B:And, you know, I remember, and I had mentioned this on another episode, but, you know, anytime that, you know, being on all these chat forums and all this sort of stuff and everybody's going through these fertility problems, and then somebody would be like, oh, you know, I got pregnant.
Speaker B:I was like, immediately, like, I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker B:I don't want to see you in here.
Speaker C:You're out of the club.
Speaker B:You're out of the club.
Speaker B:Get out of here.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So I completely understand that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I like, nope, nope, zip it.
Speaker B:Get out.
Speaker B:You're done.
Speaker B:You got pregnant.
Speaker B:So, you know, I do.
Speaker B:I do so feel for and also admire the resolve of the people that continue and, you know, continue their lives without pursuing children and.
Speaker B:And how deeply, you know, wounding that can be as well.
Speaker C:So, yeah, you have to do a lot of deep work in this process.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Whatever the outcome is, it.
Speaker C:It forces you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:To kind of look at your shit.
Speaker C:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You can make it to the other side.
Speaker B:You will know yourself deeply.
Speaker B:So you will.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And a lot of grief work either way.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker C:And so for those people who are choosing to not further pursue treatments or trying to get pregnant, it's.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, get some support, whatever that looks like, because it.
Speaker C:There's a lot of emotions and a lot of grief to process there.
Speaker B:There is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And if you're in the Vancouver area, definitely look up Alexandra at Illuminate, and it sounds like you'll be able to give them a hand with some of that stuff.
Speaker C:I'd love to.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:We've got a great team, too.
Speaker C:A lot of a team of people who kind of walked through similar.
Speaker C:Not similar.
Speaker C:Journeys.
Speaker C:Walked through the journey to some degree.
Speaker C:So they kind of get it on a personal and clinical level.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker B:Okay, well, I think we'll leave it there.
Speaker B:This was such a.
Speaker B:An amazing chat with you, and I'm just really grateful we were able to connect.
Speaker B:And again, thanks for joining me.
Speaker C:Thanks, Jill.
Speaker C:Yeah, I appreciate it.
