Until 2003, the month of November has had the significance of any other month in the year. In 2003 however, this month marked the start of a movement referred to as “Movember” that aims to address multiple aspects of men’s health, including mental health and suicide prevention.

Mental health has been historically overlooked in comparison to physical health, however men’s mental health has particularly been stigmatised by different societies. What is “growth mentality,” and when does it become toxic positivity? How can you, as a male identifying student, embrace your emotional journey rather than dismissing it? And how can society do better in helping you do so? 

All of these previous questions and more are addressed in my interview with Micheal Sa’d, the manager of the graduate student wellness services and counselling supervisor at the Student Counselling, Health and Wellbeing at York University. As a male identifying counsellor, Micheal offers different personal and professional perspectives on Men’s Mental Health. 

Resources:

• Student Counselling, Health and Well-being https://students.yorku.ca/counselling
• Graduate Wellness & Counselling at the Faculty of Graduate Studies (FGS) 
• Student Success and Wellness Counselling at Osgoode
• York University Psychology Clinic is a community mental health and training centre associated with the Department of Psychology 
• Counselling Services Afterhours- keep.meSAFE, Good2Talk 
• The Centre for Sexual Violence Response, Support & Education  
• CISS has traditional counselling services as well
• https://ca.movember.com/about/foundation 

This podcast episode contains discussions of sensitive and potentially triggering topics including but not limited to, suicide, mental health issues and other distressing subjects. Please prioritize your well being. If at any point you feel uncomfortable, feel free to pause or step away from the episode. And if you are a student at York University, you can connect with the Student Counseling services at Students York Counseling. Remember, you are not alone.

In this episode, I had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Michael Sa’d, Manager of Graduate Student Wellness Services and Counseling Supervisor at the Student Counseling Health and well Being.

Michael taught me that challenges are part of the journey, and that seeking help is a part of life. I really hope you can join us on this journey.

A few mindful minutes can really make a difference. So let's dive into our conversation with Michael.

Susu B.: Michael, how are you doing today?

Michael: I'm doing great. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me today.

Susu B.: I'm very, very glad I have you today. But before we begin, I want to know more about you. So, tell me about your role in the Student Counseling Health and Wellbeing.

Michael: So that is a role that I'll be returning to in September of this year. So right now, I'm currently the manager of Graduate Student Wellness Services out of the Faculty of Graduate Studies. That role is more in a managerial administrative role. Also, in program planning related to wellness initiatives and services to graduate students, which also includes counseling services with our colleagues at Student Counseling Health and Wellbeing. I'm a counseling supervisor. In that role I provide same day walk in services to York University students as well as ongoing counseling within a brief short-term model. At times, I may facilitate and develop workshops on various mental health topics from procrastination to anxiety to anger management, amongst others. And also, I may facilitate process groups, initiatives in addition to that, I do meet with students who may be in crises, providing them crisis support, also may look to resources or referrals in the community if our center is unable to provide mental health services and that are needed or aligned with the student. And I also supervise graduate level practicum students on their clinical practice, within our center. So, in addition to the counselors on staffs, we also do have practicum students that come from a variety of mental health related graduate programs across North America. So, a fairly robust program.

Susu B.: That's actually amazing. I feel like you're the perfect person for our episode today. So, I want to go ahead and talk about our topic today, which is men's mental health. When it comes to university, students in general may deal with a lot of stressors in their day to day lives as they navigate regular academics. But what expectations may a male identifying student in particular be dealing with on top of other academic stressors that may connect to the necessity of having immense mental health awareness?

Michael: Before I answer the question, I just want to say that I identify as a male and I use the pronouns he and him. With mental identifying students, they of course do face societal pressures and expectations that can compound their academic stressors. These may include, but not limited to the traditional norms or notions about masculinity, such as having to present a stoic demeanor, being self-reliant and emotionally resilient. Additionally, to these pressures, there's also societal pressures that may bestow on them that could include issues with financial stability, career aspirations and Expectations for cultural and family responsibilities. These expectations can make it difficult for male identified students to express vulnerabilities or to seek help when dealing with mental health issues. An initiative such as Men's Mental Health Awareness Month can encourage a discussion of mental health and the challenges with mental health by challenging perspectives on male vulnerability and promoting help seeking behaviors.

Susu B.: I'm really happy that you mentioned culture and finances because really, it's all about the intersections. It's not only the academics, it's not only the expectations. It's a group of stressors that could come from personal life and academic life, financial life that could just prevent a male identifying student from finding comfort in their life. This sparked a question in my head. Going back to your role as a counselor, would you suggest that the male identifying student would deal with these stressors the same way any student would deal with it, or is there a specific advice for males?

Michael: You know, we really have to think of it on an individual basis. So, as you Alluded to individuals have their own unique intersectionalities and we have to create a safe, nonjudgmental space to explore that. So, I think we have to be open, flexible, create an opportunity for understanding and not put individuals in the box. So, it's hard to say tips because individuals are different, but I think to promote help seeking behaviors and to assure individuals that being able to explore these services and potentially explore their perceived vulnerabilities may help the individual to find what they really need. And a counselor or mental health professional may be able to sit with the student to help them to identify how they can support them on meeting their goals or helping them to meet their needs.

Susu B.: I think that's the beautiful thing about counseling. Each person is different. So counseling is really like person centered.

Michael: That's right.

Susu B.: So that's the beautiful thing about it.

Michael: I think just to follow up, I think it's really about supporting individuals to get there and when they're there then they may have the opportunity to explore what issues may have brought them there. And with the guidance of a counselor or mental health professional they can work together to co create a set of goals and maybe a plan to meet those goals.

Susu B.: It's a beautiful tip, Michael. I have been leaning towards the assumption that individuals are aware that they are dealing with mental health challenges. However, I think some individuals would not even admit that they are struggling. So instead of categorizing things as quote unquote stressors, they considered it quote unquote part of life. Do you think this view on life is similar to the growth mentality which views adversity as a challenge, or is it more of a toxic positivity?

Michael: At least in my perspective, I think that a growth mentality may be an individual's pursuit for personal development. However, though, you know, with that concept we have to be careful because the growth mindset may veer the individual into the territory of toxic positivity in that somebody may maintain an overly positive attitude and disregard genuine mental health or emotional difficulties. So, we also have to be careful that the perspective of mental health challenges as stressors and that are merely part of life may be invalidating to some to their lived experience. And so, we have to understand that an individual, they will experience a mental health challenge in their life. It's inevitable, all of us will at some point. We're not immune from it, so to speak. So, the idea of toxic positivity I think can lead to the suppression of an individual's emotions. They may neglect self care and maybe they won't seek help which may exacerbate their mental health and their overall well being. So, I think it's important to differentiate between a growth mindset and one's denial of mental health challenges and the factors that may contribute to one's mental health challenges. It is also important to balance resilience building with the acknowledgement of challenges and normalizing of seeking help when faced with challenges. We need to reframe help seeking behaviors as a strength and a skill of problem solving.

Susu B.: I think the key word is really reframing. This should be the quote and quote part of life. Asking for help, having challenges and acknowledging that yes, I am having challenges.

Michael: Challenges is one way to look at it. But I think thinking through a strength-based lens is very important. You know, if we're thinking about growth mindset as professional development, the professional development part of it is a journey. And just on any journey there will be easier parts and there may be difficult parts. And as on any journey, if you know you run into a challenge, you try to seek a solution to help to keep you on your journey. So, I think seeking support is a part of one's journey. It's inevitable. I think we need to sort of reframe the language in a way that allows us to accept it as a part of the process.

Susu B.: That's wonderful.

Susu B.: I have a little bit of a problematic question. I know that there. There might be some people who believe that bringing attention to men's mental health could somehow be dismissive of the struggles of women. What is your opinion on such a view?

Michael: I think there's space for all of us in this world. First and foremost. I think that there may be perspectives, cultural factors, societal factors that may allow for space of mental health and support for some groups. Historical as we move into the future world, we are recognizing that there is importance for space for everybody because we all share humanistic qualities, we all feel, we all run through life difficulties. We all have important things that we are striving to attain in our lives. We all require others around us. We all need a sense of wellness in this world. So, I don't know if promoting or campaigning for men, men's mental health takes away from other groups. But I wonder how we can all share the space and maybe target groups that may not have been given the space to explore these ideas. And so, I think that again, there is space for all of us.

Susu B.: This is a beautiful response, and I totally agree with you. I think that as a community, we can care for all. And speaking of community, I know we have been talking about ways where a male identifying individual struggling with mental health might try and cope through it. However, I would like to know how we as a community or as persons can contribute to the mental wellness of our male friends, family members and colleagues.

Michael: First and foremost, we all can contribute to it. Individuals and the community can contribute to the mental health wellness of male identifying individuals. This can be done by friends, family members and colleagues with the hope and the goal to foster nonjudgmental environment for openness and support. I think creating such an environment requires all of us to be active with listening without judgment. We need to encourage conversations about mental health and to be vigilant to recognize signs of distress, in the people that we care for. I think that we can promote mental health through mental health education and awareness, and we can also look towards dismantling stereotypes, prejudices and reducing stigma of mental health. I think we need to sort of normalize and encourage the use of professional mental health services and be supportive of those seeking help. And we need to also campaign in the community with community mental health initiatives such as, mental health support services and creating safe spaces for male identified individuals to share their experience and feel supported in their journey towards mental health. Also, I think, you know, we can maybe consider encouraging supportive networks such as a post secondary institution thinking towards mentorship programs and peer support programs where male identified individuals can connect with other male identified individuals and be able to hear and share their experiences within a safe space.

Susu B.: These are great, suggestions. I think that should be universal really. One that stood out to me was recognizing the signs. My background as a psychology major, I remember I learned that there's a difference between internalizing symptoms and externalizing symptoms of depression. So, for example, like how we typically think of depression, just sadness and just how you visualize depression. However, there's externalizing symptoms just like anger. And typically, I think people would think that anger is what boys are typically engaging in. It's normal for boys, but it shouldn't be the normal. It could be just a sign of this person dealing with depression, not just aggression. So, I think it's, it's beautiful that you mentioned that. Based on your line of work and experience, I wonder, do you think there is a shift in men's mental health awareness? For example, would you say that there's more male identifying students who are comfortable going to counseling and therapy?

Michael: I mean I don't have specific data to support this, but from my perspective I do. And I have noticed a shift in mental health awareness over the years increasingly, mental identifying students are becoming more comfortable seeking counseling in therapy. I mean, I think that there has, have been more community campaigns in way of normalizing men's mental health and seeking support, when one is faced with challenges. So, I think that this, these changes are really partly due to, you know, our ongoing efforts to destigmatize mental health issues and promote the importance of mental well being for everyone, regardless of their identities. There has been a promotion of educational campaigns. There's a societal shift towards greater acceptance of male vulnerability. And we see this in, you know, the visibility of public figures discussing their mental health struggles. And I think all this can contribute to this positive trend.

Susu B.: I'm glad to know that because, when we talk about movements like Movember or Men's Mental Health Awareness Month, it's nice to see it pay off.

Michael: Yeah, I mean even predominant athletes are getting to the camera and sharing their mental health, journey. Yeah. And I think it's very important to see those models within the public sphere and to recognize in them that there's an acceptance for their struggling. And then individuals may identify with that and feel that there may be opportunity for themselves to be able to explore and share their stories.

Susu B.: Yeah, that's correct. I would like to shift our focus to York University in particular. Since you have a lot of involvement. Are there any resources you think could help male identifying students who struggle with their mental health?

Michael: You know, York University has a variety of different services to support all York students with mental health challenges, including male identifying students. There is the large counseling center, the student counseling Health and well being in the Bennett center. And then that's a great place for York students to seek out counseling. They provide both in person and virtual counseling through two forms of counseling. One is what they call a walk in service, which is the same day opportunity for students to access a counselor on the day. Either be virtual or in person. They can also seek out short term ongoing counseling. They also provide crisis support. They provide support groups such as 2SLGBTQ1A+ and racialized groups. And these support groups happen at various different, times of the year. they also do offer workshops on various mental health topics. And they're a branch of the Student Counseling Health well-being center is through, health Education and Promotion where they provide education on various different well being topics for graduate students. Graduate students can also go to student counseling, health and well being if they choose so. But graduate students do have graduate student wellness services where they can access individual counseling, either be video in person, or over the phone and they can meet with the graduate student wellness counselor or dependent on the time of the year with a practicum student on site. Also, through this um service um graduate students can explore various different wellness concerns that they may have. So, it doesn't necessarily just have to be or have to be mental health as a criteria to seek support. they can come in and just share where they feel that they need support. In addition to that Osgoode, has a student success and wellness counseling and they offer students six to eight sessions for ongoing counseling. So, this is for all Osgoode registered students. We have a York University psychology clinic. Now this is a pay for service center, but students can access practicum students and other mental health professionals there for assessment and ongoing counseling. Also, on campus we have the Centre for Indigenous student Services which M offers a one-to-one sessions and with a traditional counselor, um they offer group sessions and they also offer indigenous cultural teachings. So, these are some of the York University health and mental health services available to them. So, I urge them to seek out some of these services.

Susu B.: That's wonderful. I, I personally was not aware of like at least two out of these and I’m really happy that we have this little guideline in, in this podcast. So, although I really appreciate having a whole movement dedicated to men's mental health, what are other ways that may be helpful in applying this awareness all year around, not exclusively in November?

Michael: Probably something like ongoing education and sort of implementing continuous programs or training sessions for students, for faculty and for staff to ensure that the York community is maintaining their awareness and understanding of in addition to men's mental health but mental health in general also, you know, regular events or campaigns, workshops and campaigns focused on mental health awareness at regular intervals and not just specific months. I mean there's a variety of different opportunities and initiatives that we attempt to be able to promote mental health awareness. You know there's the well being weeks that happen at various points of the year. As an example, I think that you know as we try to establish support groups and peer networks and peer support groups that give an opportunity for students to meet other students and other mentor and mentors and peers that can provide support and foster a sense of community around mental health and mental health awareness, I think is essential. Another one that I think there had been some opportunities for or individuals are trying to incorporate into their curriculum is that they try to Integrate mental health education into academic curriculum to ensure that students receive comprehensive mental health literacy. You know, the language and I think that you know, coming from those spaces helps to emphasize, normalize and suggest for seeking help when the individual or student may need it. Of course, you know like anything, you know, having visual supports. So, maintaining high visibility of mental health support services throughout the university, you know, through constant promotion, you know, social media, shared common student spaces. Like as an example as we're here in you know, Scott Library and maybe on bulletin boards I think are very important. So, I think if everyone contributes, I think that we start to shift the zeitgeist so to speak about mental health and create more space for all individuals to hopefully access, service.

Susu B.: I completely. There's nothing to add to this answer. I think you really covered all the aspects of awareness. So, is there anything else you would like to say as we conclude?

Michael: Well, first and foremost, thank you for having me, this is a lovely experience and thank you for chatting with me, Susu and the team. The last thing to sort of leave off is to invite all York students to look to the resources on campus and if you feel able to, to ask questions and you know, maybe through the asking of questions you we can create conversations and create those spaces, for students ,to access the care that they need ofcourse for I know the topic is for male identifying students but I think that we can do this for everyone and create space for everybody here.

Susu B.: That's beautiful. Thank you, Michael. It has been great having you today.

Michael: Thanks again.

Susu B.: I really want to thank our special guest today, Michael Sa’d, manager of the Graduate Student Wellness Services and counseling supervisor at the Student Counseling Health and well Being. I really enjoyed, enjoyed our enlightening conversation. Thank you, Michael, for being such a valuable resource. If you are a student at York University, you can connect with York University's counseling services by visiting the Student Counseling Health and Well-being website at students.yorku.ca/counseling. On the website you can find more information on one on one virtual and in person counseling services, support groups, engagement activities and educational wellness programs. You can also find links to all the services Michael mentioned in the show notes for this episode along with more valuable information, tips and resources. Visit our website at go.yorku.ca/wbpodcast. Click on the episode's link and look for Episode the Movember: Putting the Men in Mental Health. This episode was co-produced by the Well-being and YU podcast team. Our podcast coordinator is Prabhleen Luthra. Our technical editor is Ethan Muir and I'm your host Susu B. And as usual, we'll leave you with the quote of the day. “There is space for everyone”

Thank you for listening.