I’m joined by Laura Duggal, a parental return-to-work coach, to explore what organisational change feels like from the perspective of new mothers and why this moment is critical for talent retention.

Because becoming a mother is already one of the biggest transitions in someone’s life. Then add a restructure into the mix everything can feel unsettling.

We talk about the fear of being replaced, the anxiety of returning to something unfamiliar, and the overwhelm when work has moved on while you were away.

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Visit the Wildwood Coaching website

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Connect with Laura on LinkedIn

Laura Duggal website

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If you’re kind enough to leave a review, please let June know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: [email protected]

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Welcome to Redundancy

Matters with me, June Hogan.

2

This is the podcast where I help

HR professionals and leaders

3

managing redundancies to put

people at the heart of the process.

4

In today's episode, I'm joined by Laura

Dug, a parental Return to Work coach.

5

With the background in hr, Laura

supports women when they're preparing

6

for Aternity leave, when they're getting

ready to come back and helping them

7

transition back into the workplace.

8

In the episode, we explore what's

really going on for women in

9

these situations when restructures

are happening in the background.

10

Things like the fear of being replaced,

the anxiety about being forgotten,

11

and also the overwhelm of returning

to a workplace that may have changed

12

significantly while someone was away.

13

This isn't a conversation about the

legal process, it's about what it can

14

feel like to be in this situation.

15

And we talk about the practical

things line managers and HR teams

16

can do to support someone through

that life changing transition.

17

I really hope you enjoy it.

18

So let's dive in to today's episode.

19

June Hogan: Welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters, and today I am

20

delighted to be joined by Laura Dug,

who is a parental return to work coach.

21

So welcome , Laura.

22

Laura Duggal: Thank you very

much for having me June.

23

It's a pleasure to be here.

24

June Hogan: We are looking

forward to our conversation.

25

So before we get started, just give

everyone a bit of an overview and an

26

introduction to you the work that you do

and what you did before you did this work.

27

Laura Duggal: Yeah, sure.

28

It might even be easier to start with.

29

What I did before.

30

So my, my work before I became a parental

or return to work coach was in hr.

31

So I used to work for HR department

as a HR business partner.

32

Part of that role was managing people's

return to work after they'd had children.

33

And that was before I'd had.

34

My daughter.

35

So I hadn't gone through

the experience myself.

36

And I think then when I did have my

daughter, I just realized that for me,

37

certainly it was a huge transition.

38

Emotionally and practically

my priorities shifted.

39

Work.

40

Changed.

41

And that kind of was the stepping

stone then to, I ended up leaving

42

that job retraining as a coach.

43

And ever since then I have been

working with organizations as an

44

external specialist coach in that area.

45

So working with employees either

before they're going on parental

46

leave or maternity leave.

47

And then through their leave, or most

particularly at that point when they're

48

returning, which is a real sort of

collision of two worlds coming together.

49

So yeah, so that's the work that I do now.

50

June Hogan: Thank you Laura.

51

So I'm really looking forward to hearing

your insights and your perspective as

52

we talk about redundancy and how that

can impact women who are about to go on

53

maternity leave, returning from maternity

leave, whilst they're on maternity leave.

54

And just in general, how that

can influence that transition.

55

Which you've been supporting people with.

56

So the podcast is called

Redundancy Matters.

57

So why does redundancy matter to you?

58

Laura Duggal: I love

that name, by the way.

59

I think it's so clever the name.

60

I think particularly, like you

say, within the work that I do, so

61

I see this very niche part of it,

which is how it affects people as

62

they're becoming parents on parental

leave and the impact that can have.

63

But I also just think, redundancy

matters to, to all of us really.

64

And I know that you've been

through a redundancy process.

65

I've worked for an

organization when I was in.

66

HR through a redundancy process.

67

I've seen friends and family go

through redundancies, and I think

68

it's such a huge change for somebody.

69

That really sticks with you, doesn't it?

70

And if it's handled badly, unfortunately,

it can really stick with you in a very

71

negative way and affect your confidence

and then go on to affect what you might

72

do next and have a knock on effect.

73

Yeah, I thought it was very clever

that you named your podcast Redundancy

74

Matters because, I think it really

does matter, how you handle it.

75

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

76

And one of my experiences of redundancy

was when I was on maternity leave,

77

so it would be interesting as we

talk through this, if there's a.

78

And shared experience and that work that

you do with organizations supporting

79

people on parental leave, returning

from parental leave and having gone

80

through that transition, whether that's

a first child, second child, third

81

child, it's life changing in itself.

82

And when you add into the mix,

maybe a restructure or a redundancy.

83

Then, that process in itself can also,

you have a different perspective on it

84

because of what's happened to you or

what's happening to you in your life.

85

Managing the challenges of a new baby.

86

So yeah, really looking forward to

digging into to all of that with

87

you and hearing your perspectives.

88

So I guess that point at which

you start to work with individuals

89

often that can be when they're

about to go on maternity leave.

90

So just talk us through that initial

interaction that you might have with

91

somebody who is about to take maternity

or parental leave in an organization.

92

How, what are some of the things

that you are talking to them about

93

and what insights would you have

around helping line managers with.

94

How they might approach the

communication plan while someone is

95

go, is about to go on maternity leave.

96

Laura Duggal: I think that's so key.

97

I think definitely what I've learned over.

98

Over the time of doing this is that line

managers are so important anyway, and

99

particularly if you're going on maternity

leave, your relationship with your line

100

manager and how your line manager handles

it can make or break it basically.

101

And I think when you're talking about, so

yeah, so if I was working with somebody

102

before they were going on maternity leave,

we might be thinking about what a good.

103

End of this particular time looks

like what a good beginning of the

104

next period of time might look like.

105

And part of that would be about how

they want their organization to be

106

in touch with them and how they see

that relationship with work going.

107

And I think the difficulty comes because

in honesty, until you have a child.

108

You, I don't think anyone can really

know what they want to happen.

109

And so often I'll speak to people

who, they'll say, oh, this is

110

what I want it to look like.

111

And then reality hits and it's

entirely different either way.

112

They might think, oh, I really

want to be in touch with work, and

113

then when it happens actually I

just really want to have this time.

114

Or they might think, oh, I want

to be completely separate from the

115

business and find that actually they.

116

They, they want that, they hadn't realized

that sort of sense of belonging or

117

that structure, how important that was.

118

So I think when it comes to, if I

was talking to a line manager for

119

instance, we might be talking about

having those conversations but not

120

making assumptions and really leaving

it with the person to think about

121

what do you want it to look like?

122

That there are no right or wrong ways

to do it, but like even just how would

123

they like to be communicated with?

124

Is it an email, is it a phone call?

125

Do they want to come into the office?

126

Do you know, like what

does it actually look like?

127

And then in terms of how regularly

they want contact, like not at all

128

or if there's like a weekly thinking

about what you've already got, if

129

there's like a weekly roundup that

goes out at the end of a week, do

130

they still want to receive that?

131

Do they want to come to team meetings?

132

Those kind of things.

133

Not assuming that anything is right

or wrong, but letting that person make

134

their own decision and allowing them

to change their mind so that, realizing

135

that as we move through this time,

you might change your mind and want

136

something different and that's okay.

137

June Hogan: What was really interesting

from what you said there was around

138

having that open conversation and not

necessarily assuming that as you say,

139

that you'll want the weekly roundup

in your personal email, for example.

140

'cause I'm guessing most people aren't

gonna be checking their work emails.

141

They'll be turn turning those

off or making assumptions that,

142

oh, you're off to have a baby.

143

So we'll see you in 12 months and.

144

Laura Duggal: Yeah.

145

June Hogan: And giving a sense of

ownership as well and agency to the

146

woman who's going on maternity leave

and opening up that open communication,

147

I guess to have that two way, as you

say, because things might change.

148

There's so many variables when you go to

have first baby, second baby, and making

149

the individual feel that it's okay.

150

To have that conversation or send

that text message or just be in touch.

151

I think that was the theme that

I was getting from what you said

152

there, as opposed to we'll, we either

won't be in contact with you until

153

you come back, or, we'll, once a

month you'll come in, won't you?

154

Something like that.

155

Laura Duggal: Yeah, exactly.

156

And I think where that ends.

157

Where that collides them with the

work that you do is almost, so for

158

instance, if someone's gonna go on

maternity leave, and it's likely as

159

a HR professional, you might not know

that there's going to be a redundancy

160

process during their maternity leave.

161

So you can't you can't plan for

every eventuality, but I think.

162

It's likely that if you've had these

kind of conversations and you've got

163

clearly, like this is what they've

stated that they would like to happen.

164

So then if they're on maternity leave and

a redundancy process begins, it's easier

165

to look at what, how would that person

like this to be communicated with them?

166

So you've already done that work.

167

Then you've got something to refer to.

168

Think okay, that's how they've

said they wanted this to play out.

169

What would be, what would it look

like to manage this process then?

170

June Hogan: Yeah.

171

Yeah.

172

And one of the things,

certainly from my own.

173

Experience, which was, a few years ago

now was that, that we didn't have that

174

conversation before I went on leave.

175

And I was happy for the organization

to get in touch as it were.

176

But if you're in that situation and

you're managing a process and you've

177

got someone who said, I, I don't want

to hear from you at all, for example.

178

Then that's understanding.

179

Okay.

180

We probably do need to share this

information with this individual.

181

Otherwise they'll hear it on a WhatsApp

group or they'll, there'll be something

182

that will come to them through unofficial.

183

So treading on that one quite carefully.

184

But again, if you've had that

conversation that says okay, that's fine.

185

We respect your respect, the

fact you're on maternity leave.

186

Now, if there are certain things

that we might need to share with

187

you that you know are significant,

then what's the best way to do that?

188

So you've almost got that stop gap

that says, okay, I'll leave you alone.

189

But in the event of some, news

that we feel that you need to be

190

included in what should we do?

191

Laura Duggal: Absolutely.

192

I think that's, it's

contracting, isn't it?

193

It's contracting for in any situation,

and we don't know what's going to happen.

194

How, what would you like, what's the

best way that would look like right now,

195

June Hogan: Yeah.

196

So thinking about when you've.

197

You've got someone who's an expectant

mother, they're going on maternity leave.

198

And so we are both mothers ourselves.

199

But everyone's different in terms

of what's going through their mind.

200

That every pregnancy will be different.

201

You dunno what, what that

individual's necessarily been

202

going through up to this point.

203

In your experience, what are

some of the things that are

204

on an expectant mother's mind

205

when you're thinking about

that transition time.

206

Laura Duggal: I think

you're right to say that.

207

I haven't coached the same person twice,

if so I've never, I don't have a stock

208

program where we look at confidence in

this session and this because everybody's

209

completely different and it will be a

different experience for each person.

210

I think some of the themes that

I see coming up, so as you're

211

about to go on maternity leave.

212

It can go to one of two ways.

213

So it's either like a

fear, of being replaced.

214

Like who's my cover for my maternity?

215

So fear of being replaced or

being forgotten at work like that.

216

Then people often, it's such a shame.

217

I was just thinking, it's such a shame

that it's called maternity leave.

218

Because it does set it up, doesn't

it, to be a oh, they're leaving.

219

Bye.

220

That feeling and having lived through

that as well, it's so unintentional.

221

No one's doing it on purpose to make you

feel that this is the end of your career.

222

Bye.

223

But it can unintentionally feel that way.

224

So I think there's a.

225

That sort of fear of is this is,

how is this gonna affect my career?

226

Will I be forgotten?

227

Will I be replaced?

228

When it, and that does happen, sadly.

229

It does happen.

230

And then I think sometimes the.

231

I would say the other way, but to

me there's sort of two sides of

232

a coin , a lot of the people that

I work with are high achievers

233

very committed to their careers.

234

So it might be a case of that anxiety of,

I've got to hand this over to somebody.

235

Will they do it in the same

way that I want it to be done?

236

Will it be done well enough?

237

Yeah, so I fear and anxiety

sounds like fun, doesn't it?

238

There's actually excitement as

well with the start of these

239

other parts of their life.

240

But I think like you, you

specifically said to do with work.

241

I think it's that it can

just, that uncertainty.

242

I think it's I remember I once

coached somebody who it's always

243

stuck with me that she said.

244

Gosh.

245

Yeah.

246

You just don't know do you

until the until the baby's born.

247

. So I think it's that sort of,

it's going into the unknown.

248

With this sort of fear of, is this the

end of my career or this anxiety of,

249

oh my gosh, I've got this huge project,

I've just handed it over halfway through.

250

June Hogan: Those are like, those

are big emotions that you just

251

talked about anxiety and fear and,

there'll be some excitement and

252

obviously level of trepidation, again,

depending on your circumstances.

253

And that piece you said they're about.

254

Will I be replaced?

255

And I guess we're going

back to the contracting.

256

Because being upfront and being clear

about with the line manager, yes, we've

257

got someone in to cover you and Julie

will be covering your maternity leave.

258

And that's, that's what

we've got in place.

259

And, discussions about when you

come back, we'll talk those a later

260

time, but maybe if things change.

261

While maternity leave is happening, and

as we said, there's a restructure, a

262

reorganization, then I can understand how

that fear of am I going to be replaced?

263

Will be heightened if, in terms of how

the information might be delivered.

264

Now, we're not gonna get into the

legalities of women on maternity

265

leave and redundancy processes

because that's that's for another day.

266

But that again, that having that

communication around this is what's

267

happening, this is what it means for you,

and just having that recognition that,

268

there, there will be some complexities

associated with the fact that.

269

This woman's on maternity leave

and that's, for the HR team and

270

the line managers to to agree.

271

But knowing that the anxiety of

will I be replaced is already

272

there for that individual.

273

I think that's a really important

point to, to be aware of

274

. And every situation, again,

is gonna be different.

275

And rewinding to, what was

the communication plan and how

276

regularly have you been in contact

if that was what was agreed?

277

When I was on maternity leave, one of the

things that I found was that I was called

278

to a conference call and I didn't know.

279

I was being called to the conference

call and I sat there and I was

280

just listening to the information

thinking, this doesn't sound great.

281

And then that was it.

282

And then the next thing I

was invited into a meeting.

283

And there's nothing wrong

with the process in itself.

284

It, it was a process.

285

But I think that recognition that.

286

My anxiety was already heightened because

I hadn't been in work for six months.

287

And maybe there's a slightly

different process or some follow up

288

that you might need for somebody.

289

Similarly, if somebody's on

long-term sick, it's not just, it's

290

not just about women on maternity

leave or people on parental leave.

291

It's just recognizing what else

might be going on for that individual

292

because of their circumstances.

293

I think.

294

Laura Duggal: Lately, and I think

it's treating everybody as unique

295

individuals as well, isn't it?

296

I think it's, I think it's also

really difficult as a HR professional,

297

there's a lot going on, isn't

there for that person as well.

298

They're dealing with everything.

299

They're holding everything as well.

300

So I think almost like having this as

standardized, doing all this thinking

301

before you're actually in that situation.

302

So you've got a checklist of like, all

right, when somebody's on maternity

303

leave, things to consider questions

I might ask myself, questions I might

304

ask them because in, in those moments,

they're really difficult and they're

305

emotionally charged for everybody.

306

So it's you, I think you can sometimes

look at things and think, oh yeah,

307

I could see why that happened.

308

It went to the too difficult pile.

309

Or it was like, it was such a difficult

conversation that the awkwardness and

310

the not knowing got in the way of just

being able to think oh, if it was me, what

311

would I, what would make a difference?

312

Or like, how would I want

someone to broach this with me?

313

Or, do you see what I mean?

314

So I think as much thinking as you

can do when something isn't happening.

315

So helpful to then be able

to have that as a pointer.

316

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

317

And then you are more prepared, and

that'll be a first time for everyone

318

in managing these sorts of situations.

319

And as you say redundancy

processes can be complicated.

320

They can.

321

Can be complex, they can be quite

overwhelming in some situations.

322

As a HR professional,

you are carrying a lot.

323

And just having, hopefully, listening

to this will just give people some

324

insights and some thoughts around how

they might manage those situations.

325

So if we think about.

326

Someone who's getting ready to

come back from maternity leave.

327

And then this is where you do

a lot of your work in terms of

328

supporting individuals as they're

coming back into the workplace.

329

You talked about some of those

big emotions that they might be

330

experiencing before they're going.

331

What's it like when they're

starting to get ready to come back?

332

What's going on for people at that point?

333

Laura Duggal: Yeah, I think

there're two different points.

334

There's a sort of like the point

again, until you're doing it,

335

you're not really doing it and

you don't know what it feels like.

336

So I think there were two points.

337

So I tend to start working with

people six weeks or two months

338

before they return to work.

339

So there's a bit of

that planning going on.

340

There's a bit of oh, what's, what might

it look like when I go back to work?

341

What would a good return look like for me?

342

And you might be thinking about things

like practicalities of fixable working

343

or what do I want my days to look like

or what do I want the actual work that

344

I'm doing to look like to begin with?

345

What conversations do I need to have?

346

How am I keeping in touch with

people, et cetera, et cetera.

347

What I tend to see is that

in that coaching session.

348

Before the return.

349

There's a lot of that sort of

mental work going on around

350

what are the possibilities?

351

What might happen?

352

What would ideal look like?

353

Who can I talk to?

354

Who are my allies?

355

Who am I, what will feel

like a good first day back?

356

How can I do as much of that work myself?

357

And then the coaching sessions, when

they're back at work are often quite

358

a different pace, quite a different

experience where it's because it's where.

359

Those worlds are colliding, aren't they?

360

So if you imagine, before, before

having a child, you have probably

361

got your work life and your home

life and they're operating together.

362

And then on maternity leave or parental

leave, you take out the work life

363

day to day and just operating on a.

364

On a personal life, home life basis.

365

And then when it comes to return to

work, you're adding it back in again,

366

but also everything's changed at home.

367

Potentially everything's

changed at work as well.

368

So you're just I would say that the

number one emotion that comes up in

369

those coaching sessions is overwhelm

of just everything is colliding.

370

There's nothing to hold onto.

371

Everything's changed.

372

And I suppose with like redundancy in

mind or restructures in mind, quite often

373

the people that I coach will have their

work will look in entirely different.

374

Quite often I hear people say, it's

like I'm just doing a different job.

375

'cause either like their team has changed

or something about the way that the, like

376

a process has changed or a system they're

using has changed or location or and

377

I think because businesses these days.

378

They're so agile and

changed so frequently.

379

It's fast, so it's not unusual now

for someone to go back to work and for

380

everything to be completely different.

381

I think it's, I'm just trying to

think of people that I'm working

382

with and have worked with.

383

It's unusual for someone just

to go back and be like, yeah, it

384

just, same as when I left, it just

doesn't happen like that anymore.

385

June Hogan: Yeah.

386

And that, as you say, that overwhelm

in terms of having to get used to,

387

what might seem like a new job and

in some cases if there's been lots.

388

Have changed.

389

If someone's been off for nine, 12

months, as you say, organizations

390

don't necessarily stand still anymore.

391

And even just that, I guess that

notion of, because you've changed as

392

a parent or you become a parent or you

now have more than one child that it

393

probably just does feel very new anyway

because you are approaching it with a

394

different perspective, a different set of

responsibilities, maybe a different set of

395

challenges depending on what's happened.

396

During maternity leave, depending

on what your child's like,

397

all of these sorts of things.

398

And so having you as that point of

contact must be incredibly important.

399

And for a line manager or maybe, the

hr professional who's helping someone

400

return to work or look, looking to

put the planning in place for that.

401

And there's been a restructure.

402

Things are different.

403

We're assuming that they're not

part of a redundancy process

404

'cause that's another conversation.

405

But they've come back and the job has

changed slightly or their job hasn't

406

changed, but everything around them has.

407

What are some of the things that you think

are really important in those early days

408

when someone's coming back from maternity

leave, assuming they don't have the

409

luxury of having your support necessarily?

410

Laura Duggal: Yeah.

411

I think really touching what we've

said already about that pre-planning,

412

like having these things standardized

so that it's a, when someone returns,

413

and as I've said that, I'm like,

not everyone is different, right?

414

But if you can follow a sort of,

outline or a process of things

415

that I could be thinking of.

416

So you might have a thing that

you could be thinking of, which

417

looks completely different to

one person than it does another.

418

So what I mean by that is you might

have, something as a prompt so

419

that when someone's returning from

maternity leave, you have a these

420

are the, these are the loose times

that we might be in touch with them.

421

These are the loose ways that we, that the

ways that we might be in touch with them.

422

Considering, what might they need to know?

423

Have there been any changes

while they've been away?

424

How would they like

that to be communicated?

425

What's the best way for that person?

426

So you've got the prompts, but

you are also tailoring it for

427

each person so that it's how they

would want to receive that news.

428

And I think honestly,

it's things like just.

429

Noting when that person's first day

if it's gonna be that person's first

430

day back in the office, making sure

that if you are their line manager,

431

you are there to welcome them back in.

432

For some people when they come back

for maternity leave, and I would say.

433

Most people rather than just some, it is

like your first day at work somewhere.

434

So just thinking, oh, they

were, they were great.

435

Like often, these are high performers,

these are really capable people.

436

So it's oh yeah, it's

her first day back in.

437

Like it'll just be back to normals.

438

I just think that's, it's

unrealistic expectation of anybody.

439

So being there to welcome them back in.

440

Having put, if you have

oversight of their diary.

441

Trying to think about who might they

need to have a chat with this week?

442

What do I know about the

changes that have happened?

443

Who would be good to set them up with

so that they can really get up to speed?

444

June Hogan: It's almost like that

having that return from parental leave,

445

maternity leave induction plan that you

would have on a smaller scale, but you'd

446

have that for a new starter and every.

447

One has one of those, don't they?

448

And I think what you've just said

there about almost, framing it as

449

what's the reintroduction plan for?

450

This individual, because there

might be some stuff that they

451

need to get up to speed on.

452

They could use a kit day maybe to

to come in and do that, for example.

453

And again, as you said, we, where

we started, really, it's all about

454

the communication, as in what's

gonna be most helpful for that.

455

Individual or maybe they'll no, I'd

rather just come in, spend a day

456

just getting up to speed quietly

on my own and then, get stuck in.

457

So giving again, giving

them some responsibility in

458

how that's all structured.

459

And I was listening to a podcast a

while ago and an individual was sharing

460

how it was their first day back and

they didn't see their line manager.

461

All day.

462

In fact, it was two days before

they saw their line manager.

463

this individual has gone on to

talk about their experience quite

464

openly and do work sim similar

to the work that you do as well.

465

They never stayed in that organization.

466

They eventually left.

467

So this is a crucial point, not just

about, welcoming somebody back into

468

the workplace, but it's thinking

about that talent retention, isn't

469

it, in, in that sense as well.

470

And how you frame all of that and make

people feel welcome and valued and wanted

471

and set that up because I guess it's quite

a pivotal time in someone's life anyway.

472

And those initial that initial welcome

back, I guess can have quite an influence

473

over how they feel about the organization

and their manager, I guess going forward.

474

Laura Duggal: Yeah.

475

Yeah.

476

So if you are looking at retaining

your employees, that's one of the

477

key areas to look at, isn't it?

478

How am I making this person feel that

they actually matter to our organization?

479

How am I helping them

feel that they belong?

480

I had a call with them,

HR director this morning.

481

They had taken up some coaching

packages and she said, oh gosh,

482

even as I just introduced it, so

they've got two people returning.

483

And she said I just said to them,

oh, this is what we're offering you.

484

And that's another important point about

it being an offer and not obligatory.

485

To your point earlier about

everyone is different and may not

486

want such a structured return.

487

So it's about offering and then

people being able to take up.

488

She said that they she'd been

in this conversation where she'd

489

offered coaching and she said,

I just saw that person light up.

490

And they were like, this is

a fantastic thing to offer.

491

Thank you so much.

492

Just seeing already

that it's oh, I matter.

493

You are willing to put some money

behind something that's going to

494

support me in my return to work.

495

That kind of, and like you say, I

know organizations, not everybody

496

is in a position to be able to

afford that kind of support.

497

But then being able to do that yourself as

an organization, it is really important.

498

June Hogan: That speaks to the

values of the organization.

499

And, say just how they're treating people.

500

I often think at those pivotal

moments in someone's life or pivotal

501

moments in the employee life cycle

is what they choose to do at those

502

moments really stays with people.

503

And as we know, people will remember

how they were treated and how they

504

felt more so than the process itself.

505

Absolutely.

506

Because you forget about the process.

507

What you remember is.

508

How that person, your line

manager, , engage with you.

509

And how did they make you feel that quote

by Maya Angelou is one of my favorites.

510

That notion of, I think is the theme

all the way through our conversation

511

is you might have some frameworks and

some structures, but understanding that

512

those may need to tweak and giving the

individual that opportunity, as you say,

513

we talked about coaching, but they might

not want that might not be something that.

514

And that appeals to them.

515

It's ke keep treating

people as individuals.

516

And so in the sort of the context

of redundancy and restructure what

517

would be some of the key things that

you would summarize if you like, if

518

you've got someone who's in either

about to go on maternity leave or

519

maybe re returning, what were some

of the things that you'd want someone

520

listening to this to remember.

521

Laura Duggal: I think from the things

that we've talked about today, it's

522

that sort of, it's like when policy

and being a human collide, isn't it?

523

It's we know that you have

to do certain things to be

524

within the legal requirements.

525

As much as you can remember to be

a human as well, to be a human and

526

treat other people as humans too.

527

And that means that there

isn't a one size fits all.

528

Be able to flex and be curious and ask

questions and not make assumptions so

529

that people can, within within reason.

530

Can plan how they want their return

to look so that it works with 'em.

531

And I think that you used the

word responsibility before,

532

which made me think about giving

people agency, is so important.

533

And I think with that as well I think

what we are talking about really is

534

creating, like I said, psychological

safety, but really just safety, isn't it?

535

Just safety and being able to say,

this is what I'd like it to look like.

536

This is what I need.

537

And putting things forward,

actually that is quite difficult

538

sometimes for people to do.

539

And particularly when there's all

that, you know if we're talking about

540

someone who's returning to work after

maternity to leave and there's been a

541

restructure or been a redundancy process.

542

There'll be so much going on

for that person I would imagine

543

around like imposter syndrome

or should I even be here?

544

Maybe they might have some guilt.

545

They might still have

some oh, that happened.

546

It could happen again.

547

That uncertainty.

548

So I think creating safety by

asking questions and really, and

549

actually listening to the answer

as much as you possibly can.

550

June Hogan: Yeah, that and that.

551

Yeah.

552

That's really interesting.

553

As you say there about, what it might

feel like for somebody coming back into

554

an organization after a restructure.

555

And because there are protections in

place for women on maternity leave in,

556

in or if not most situations when you're

doing a restructure redundancy process it

557

might well be that they have their job.

558

Because they were on maternity leave.

559

And not necessarily because they

were one of the top five performers

560

when they had to reduce the team from

five, from eight to five or whatever.

561

So there could be a lot

going on there for somebody.

562

And that could play into the dynamics

of how they reintegrate with the

563

team and all of those things.

564

Support that, that you deliver, I

can imagine in that situation would

565

be really powerful to help somebody

with all of those big emotions and

566

getting back into the workplace.

567

So I know that you have some free

resources on your website and people

568

can find you and get more information.

569

Where can people find you if

they're interested to find out

570

more about Laura and your services?

571

Laura Duggal: They can find me on LinkedIn

and they can find me at my website,

572

I've got a parental return to

work checklist, which is designed

573

for HR and line managers.

574

But I have I have heard from people who

are actually on Aternity to leave that

575

it's really useful for them as well, so

that they can use it at the same time.

576

So it's designed for line managers

as a again, like a loose here

577

is, here's a rough timeline.

578

Here's some ideas of some questions

that you might want to ask.

579

So yes, you can find that on my website.

580

And I forgot that I have got a

YouTube channel as well, which is new.

581

June Hogan: You are everywhere.

582

Laura Duggal: Yeah.

583

June Hogan: it.

584

So we'll put all the links to all

of that in the show notes so people

585

can go and find you on LinkedIn.

586

They can check out the website

and those, that free download

587

will be on your website.

588

And and look you up on YouTube.

589

Laura, I've really enjoyed

that conversation and I

590

love how we've gone quite.

591

Quite into quite a lot of detail and

hopefully helping HR professionals

592

or leaders listening to this to think

about how they can better support

593

people at those pivotal times, and

particularly in light of a restructure.

594

And the work that you do is really

important to help retain talent

595

in organizations, but also just to

help people at what can be a time of

596

overwhelm, as you say, when they're

coming back to work or even indeed.

597

Experiencing some of those big

emotions when they're preparing

598

to go on maternity leave.

599

So thank you so much for

sharing all of that with us.

600

And yeah, I really enjoyed

our conversation today.

601

Laura Duggal: So much for having me.

602

It's a pleasure.

603

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

604

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

605

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

606

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

607

people who are managing redundancies.

608

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

609

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

610

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

611

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

612

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

613

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.