This week on the Functional Tennis Podcast I’m joined by John Williams, coach and mentor to world number 1 doubles player Taylor Townsend.

John’s approach to coaching is anything but conventional. He doesn’t just build tennis players, he builds characters. In this chat we talk about the characteristics he looks for in players, how his outside-the-box thinking shapes their development, and why mindset and life skills are just as important as technique.

Key Topics

🎾 The traits that separate good players from great ones

🧠 Why developing character is as important as developing skills

💡 How to think differently about tennis and avoid a conformist mindset

📈 Lessons from coaching top pros and upcoming juniors

Quote

“I’m not just coaching forehands and backhands, I’m building people.”

From guiding top pros to developing juniors, John shares invaluable lessons for players, coaches, and parents who want to understand what it truly takes to succeed in the sport.

Enjoy

Fabio

This podcast is sponsored by ASICS. ASICS is a Japanese company founded in 1949 to give more people the opportunity to experience how sports and movement can have a positive impact on mental well-being.

To learn more about ASICS visit their website here: https://www.asics.com/nl/en-nl/sports/tennis/

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Welcome to the Functional Tennis Podcast brought to you by ASICS Tennis and I'm your host, Fabio Molly and I bring you insights and lessons from players, coaches, parents and experts who are ingrained in the world of high level tennis. This week I'm joined by John Williams, coach and mentor to world number one doubles player, Taylor Townsend.

John brings a non traditional view to tennis coaching on and off the court, focusing not just on strokes and strategy, but on building strong character in his players.

We chat about the characteristics he looks for in players, what it takes to stay in the game long term, and why building trust and strong value matters more than quick wins.

His unique insights into player relationships, emotional resilience and long term growth make this a powerful listen for coaches, parents and ambitious players alike. Here's John. John, welcome to the Functional Tennis Podcast. How are you?

I'm doing well, thanks Fabio. It's good to be here.

I'm super pumped to find out about you, how you got into tennis and the great work you've been doing, especially recently now with the headlines and yeah, so tell us, first of all, maybe how did you get into tennis and a bit about your background that led you to getting into tennis.

Sure.

So I was doing double duty there and I did that probably for about two and a half years and then we moved from New York to Atlanta and once I moved to Atlanta, opened a couple of gyms, I've owned several facilities down there and then really made the move into sports performance.

Once I did that, I kind of never looked back, got involved in sports performance and became the physical conditioning guy and that was my early introduction to tennis on the junior level.

Started working hand in hand with some coaches in and around the Atlanta area and happened to be fortunate enough to connect with some really good ones who had some players that went on to do some really good things in junior tennis and I was the guy kind of powering their physical behind their on court performances. So I'm a very invasive, all inclusive type of person. So when I'm in, I'm all the way in and if I'm not in, then I'm not in at all.

So when I got involved in tennis I wanted to learn everything there was to learn about the sport, both as a player and I grew up playing racquetball, which I don't know if you are familiar with that. Okay.

I think Ireland has some good players in racquetball, as far as I know.

Okay. Okay. So I grew up playing racquetball, so I was familiar with the concept of, you know, racket sports, and that was kind of the. The.

The fuel that led to my intrigue.

So I started spending, you know, more and more time around the tennis courts, watching lessons, listening to what coaches were telling players to do, and then seeing what the players were able to do with that information. Looking predominantly for any physical limitations or areas that I could be of service in any, you know, any.

Any area that I could contribute to their improvement.

And being around that, I gained a massive education in how to play the game, how to look at the game, you know, the components involved in the game, understanding the game from, you know, from a tennis coach's perspective, because that's who I was essentially shadowing. So fast forward we come to now. You know, I've been in Atlanta for four or five years.

I have some of the top juniors in the country that I'm working with, and reputation has really spread now. I'm working with a lot more players at various levels. I have players getting ready to go on to university, getting scholarships, things like that.

So that's how I essentially got involved in tennis and became kind of a figurehead in. In. Involved in the sport.

So it wasn't an overnight change. You've been gradually building and building and building and learning.

I say it was an overnight success that only took about 10 years to happen.

Yeah, I think that's most overnight successes, isn't it, in Atlanta? Robbie Ginepri, do you ever work in that academy? That's the only one I know in Atlanta.

Gotcha. You know, a funny story, so Robby, when he had his big run at the US Open, my reputation was pretty well known at that point in time.

So I was going to a Cairo that also treated Robbie. And this Cairo used to do a lot of work with the Atlanta Falcons. So his name was Dr. Dave.

So, Dr. Dave, shout out to Dr. Dave, I hope you and Sherry and the kids are doing well. Dr. Dave was working with Robbie, and he was like, you know, Robbie could really use someone like you in his corner. And I said, okay, cool.

I'm happy to. Happy to chat with him. And for whatever reason, that conversation never took place.

But I always thought it was pretty cool that, you know, I could say, yeah, somebody was trying to connect me with Robbie, and it just didn't work out. But, yeah, so all good.

That's pretty cool. No that's pretty cool. But more recently, you've been working with Taylor townsend Now, roughly five years, is it.

Okay. Longer. Longer. So you've had before pregnancy and after pregnancy. You've been there.

Exactly.

Okay. How many years? How old is her boy now?

He's four.

He's four. Okay. So. And you've evolved more into it. You're a coach now. You're like, yes.

So how, when you look at a player, a new player, I show you a player, this guy's going to be a top. He's top player in the country, or what do you look for in a player? What. What sort of.

I'm interested to hear how your, you know, your background has shaped how you think about when you see a player. First.

Sure. The first thing I think about and I look for is what does their work ethic look like? The second thing I look for is why are they doing this? What is.

Does this bring them joy? Is this an itch that they can't ever seem to scratch, but they keep trying because they love it that much?

You know, and then I look at what the structure is around them. Are they. Are they from a heavily involved but not necessarily supportive family? Are they from a minimally involved but heavily supported family?

Those things matter. And I look at that to kind of establish what kind of personality characteristics and attributes there are going to be present in this player.

Because we are, as much as we like to think that we break the mold and, you know, are able to move beyond a different orbit, we are a product of our environment. So if our environment is messy, if our environment is heavy, if our environment is filled with, you know, criticisms and.

And, you know, negativity, then we are going to develop in response to that.

Environment, what are the ideal characteristics?

So if you're looking for your perfect player to work on, I know the results may not end up being perfect, but from a building, from day one, you say, okay, this player has all the characteristics and attributes that I think will make a great player. What are they? If we can package them up?

Yeah, that's a great question. So it's actually why I wrote a book on the five attributes of Champions.

I haven't read it yet. I haven't read it yet.

Looking at it. Yeah, we'll make sure we get you a copy.

So in the Champions code, I actually break down all five of the attributes that I see as commonalities amongst all high achievers, regardless of what domain they. They operate in.

The first thing is Mental toughness and mental toughness can take a couple of different shapes, but essentially we want to make sure that you have the ability to stay mentally tough and engaged when things don't go your way, when you are faced with adversity, whatever that looks like. The second thing would be, I would say, man, if I was looking at a kid, what I would be looking for. Yeah, definitely.

Discipline and work ethic, that would be number two. Because if you don't have the work ethic, you're never going to push yourself, regardless of what was going on around you.

So you can be the best coach in the world, you can be part of the best team in the world, but if the individual is not willing to push themselves harder than you are willing to push them, it's going to be really tough for them to get a hundred percent of their performance out of them. Right. The second thing is the discipline. That second part is the discipline.

Because what happens when you're not around, that's where discipline kicks in. Right. A lot of players are really good at following instructions. Yes. So, and so does whatever I tell them to do.

But when I'm not around to tell them to do it, what are they doing? So are you doing your mobility work on your own? Are you making sure that you're getting your eight to nine hours of sleep every night?

Are you being diligent with your nutrition? Whether it's a diet for body composition or we're looking to optimize your performance.

So we want to make sure that your post workout nutrition is good or your pre workout nutrition is good. That's all discipline. That's not somebody standing next to you saying, do this, do that, do this, do that.

We can't always be in the same category as Novak, where you have somebody hand you a meal and say, eat this now. Hand you a shake and say, drink this now. Right.

There's only a couple of players in the world, there's only a handful that can have that.

And it's very interesting because if you look at it like financially, there are quite a few players that could afford that, but they choose not to have that. And I always sit back and I wonder why, because I would definitely do that. Decision fatigue. Just eliminate that. Decision fatigue.

It's a bit like people who wear the same clothes every day. It's one less decision they have to do every day.

Do you think that Novak would, where he has this help, if he didn't have the help, he'd still be doing that, or do you think he wouldn't Be.

I think he would be because I think he identifies that it's a priority for him because it, it radically impacts his performance, how well he would be able to execute. I think that's where the question mark comes in, you know, and I think that's, that's the difference. Right.

The, the champions control what they can control and he can control this. So it's, he knows it's the same all the time. Like it's always done at a high level every single time.

And it doesn't rely, it doesn't matter how busy he gets with, you know, public engagements or sponsorship obligations or this or that.

Yeah.

Or even actually the playing of tennis.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter that his, his recovery level, all of those things stay consistent the entire time. And that is the key to long term success.

I think I'm breaking into your points here, but I think a better example this is Taylor, who having a kid is not easy. I know we've three kids. My diet train has fallen apart with three kids between sleep and you're just not.

It's another fight you have to do with yourself and just like you just give in to that fight. I feel sometimes it's good, sometimes bad, but consistency isn't there throughout the year.

So how does somebody like Taylor would a young kid the past few years be able to, you know, maintain their energy for training, eat right, you know, be mentally in a positive place when you're not sleeping well because your kid's up in the middle of the night? How have you worked with her to help her combat this? Or is this just something she's really good at naturally?

That's a great question. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say I've ever met anyone who is really good at, at managing parenting naturally.

I think there are people who are really good at adapting fast, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah.

And it sounds kind of like I'm splitting hairs and being really semantic about it, but I don't think you could be really good at something naturally that you have no concept of what it actually involves. And you parenthood is like that, you know, after you've had your first one, then you know what's involved. Right.

So you kind of know what's coming or, or what could be.

But two is always harder than one, you know, it's a different, the second one is not the same. It's different game. It's a completely different sport. And then three is a different sport. And then I'm sure four is as well, so.

But yeah, you're right, yes. Adaptable is a good word.

So I think. I think in.

In her situation, going back to the attributes, one attribute that she and I have worked really hard to cultivate in her is the ability to build and maintain a team. And, you know, we talked about this when.

When she was pregnant and discussing her return to play, her return to competition, and I said, listen, you're going to need to have a couple of people in play, and one of those people has to be a caregiver, because you can't be in two places at one time. And you want to make sure that your son. Well, child.

We didn't know he was a boy at that point, but your son, your child is going to have consistency and some sense of normalcy, because you don't. You don't. So that's one of the other attributes that I think is highly valuable, not just for Taylor, but even for a junior athlete.

Understanding that building a team needs to be a primary focus, and there's a developmental curve in there as well. Because if you're 12, what do you know about team building? You know, you might be part of a team, but. But you.

You really have very little exposure on how to build a team. But if you start asking those questions and that.

That's introduced to you, like, hey, what do you really like about the way that, you know Fabio coaches? Well, I like that he gives me tough things to do, but he never yells at me, and he always asks me a lot of questions. You know what I mean? So you.

You ask them questions so that they start thinking about the attributes that they like in others, and that becomes the building block or the foundation for how they're going to build their team. You see this a lot. I'll just add this little bit and then I'll shut up. No, no.

It's interesting.

You see a lot at the pro level, and there's been some recent movement now. Players and coaches coming together, but also going apart. Right. And you're like, wow, did you.

Before you picked this coach to work with, did you identify the attributes that they have? Do you actually know who it is you're working with, or are you basing it off the Persona and the cv? Because those two things are radically different.

I've been saying for a very long time, we all need to check pedigrees, and the pedigree needs to be the history. So if you're looking at someone's performance, you're evaluating their performance, not just their associations.

What did their presence do to change or Move the needle of the person that they're working with or the group that they're working with. Right. That's how we evaluate.

That's is. That's what you have to understand is. I'm just a little bit lost. You're gone over my head now a little bit. No, no. Which is, which is.

Which is not a bad thing or a good thing.

You're sleep deprived. That's what we'll blame.

No, I'm not so bad today. I'm not so bad today. No, but you mean that's what we need to look out for or that's what we look out for and it's wrong?

No, that's what we need to look out for. We need to look at the history. We need to look at historical evidence.

We need to put aside the hype, the hyperbole, the marketing and the Persona aspect of it. That may be what attracts you there. You know, it's like a relationship. Oh yeah, right. The visual happens first.

Yeah.

But if there's no substance there, if you can't carry on a conversation with the person, then I don't think, you know, a 30 year, 50 year marriage prospect is probably not that person will make.

So it becomes really important to understand really what it is we're looking at and then making a decision based on that, not what somebody tells you because they really like that person.

True. We're sucked into those visual things so quickly, aren't we?

Even you may think it's done at an ordinary level, but it's also at a high level, like the best in the world. Do it get sucked in as well?

Correct.

And they, and they think, but you're right, the well runs dry pretty quick.

Exactly.

Okay, so getting back to some more characteristics that you're looking for in this ideal player to start off with parents a big thing. I know you talk about guidance and you know, helping how they know what it's like to build a team.

But surely you need parents at a young age are involved as well and they're making decisions until the kid's 18 most of the time where they're getting in coaches or maybe they're the coach in many cases. So I think you did mention foundations at the start. And this whole family, what's their commitment? So ideal parents, what are they look.

Like committed to the success of the child. And success in this regard I'm defining as the facilitation of every opportunity for the child to accomplish their goals and dreams.

That's success as an outsider. That's all you can do.

So if you tell me you want to be number one in the world on the ATP tour, I might say, fabio, have you really thought about this? Right.

So, not that I'm trying to dissuade you, I'm trying to determine how much you thought, like deep thought and investigation you've done into this goal and objective, because that's going to determine whether or not it's, it's just something you're saying, or is it something that you feel and you're willing to dedicate your life to?

Once we've identified that, then I would say, okay, well, here's how I think I can help contribute to that and I'll list the things, but those things are only going to be facilitating opportunities for you so I can get you in great shape.

That's going to allow you to be able to play the game you want to play the way you want to play it, give you longevity, because hopefully you'll be resistant to injury. And those opportunities may provide you the other opportunities to go long and go far and climb the rankings and all those other things.

Things that I can't control. Right. So parents, bringing it back to your question, parents, especially in the beginning, they're the facilitators.

They're the facilitators and they're the, the maintainers of motivation and support.

So as a parent of a 12 year old that aspires to, you know, play at the highest level of the sport, whatever the sport is, I'm saying if you're willing to commit to doing the work on and off court, if you're willing to discipline yourself in the manner that it is required in order for you to constantly make progress. We're not trying to become world champion or, you know, number one in the world overnight. So it's a, it's a, it's a process, it's a time, right?

So we need to make sure that you're going to be consistent in doing the things that will aggregate over time and lead you there.

But if you're willing to do that, then I'll take you to pr, I'll take you to training, I'll pick you up, I'll pay for the lessons, I'll buy the shoes, I'll do this, I'll do that, I'll do this, I'll do that. Right. So those are all the tangible things that are on the parental side of support once you guys have engaged in that contract.

Because it is an agreement. They have responsibilities and obligations, and you have responsibilities and obligations. Okay?

So the other thing, the other side of the coin, the intangibles, is the support side and the encouragement side. And that is, I think, probably the most misunderstood area that exists, especially in young. Developing young players, young athletes.

And that is where the parents understand that your primary role as a parent needs to be support, encouragement, but also the maintaining of a standard. And that standard doesn't waver. It doesn't. It doesn't vacillate whether they are playing well or whether they are performing horribly.

The standard is still the standard. That's how they understand the relationship and identity between. This is who I am. Antennas is just what I do.

The same way as a plumber is not defined by how many drains he can unclog. Right. He's a plumber. That's just the job that he does. But who he is could be any number of different things.

And I think that separation of identity begins in the home with the parents in situations like this.

Yeah, it's.

You can see how it's tough for parents that kids that age where they want to be, you know, more invest and maybe invested, not the right word, but they're sucked in too much, and then their mood becomes dependent on how this kid's doing that the kids upset, and it's just downhill from there. So, nice point on the just having a constant enthusiasm. Where it's good or bad, it's constant.

That's where, you know, I use the expression a lot. You know, I'm not going to ride the roller coaster with you. And.

And what that means is, you know, as a coach, when I'm sitting on the sidelines watching a match, if things are going really well or if they aren't going really poorly, then I have to still be the navigator. I still have to be the eye in the sky.

I still have to see three miles out, and I have to look at all of those things, not just what I'm being blinded by right now. And the player, of course, is occupied with what's directly in front of their face, and that sometimes limits their vision. They can't see beyond.

Right. So if I'm on the roller coaster with you, then I'm also. I also suffer from that limited tunnel vision.

But if I'm not on the roller coaster with you, then I can see. Hey, Fabio, look out. There's another. There's a big drop coming.

You're air traffic control.

Exactly, exactly. And that is where parents really have a difficult time. Because they're so close, it's very difficult for them to create separation and Space.

And this is where, this is where it becomes critically important, in my opinion, for parents to understand what attributes they have naturally and then look to improve those attributes, improve on those attributes and move toward, you know, attributes that are going to complement the relationship, complement the situation, complement the success and growth, development of their player.

And obviously you work with Taylor full time now. Do you still work with juniors at the moment?

I do. I consult for a few juniors. You know, this, my, my 9 to 5, my full time job kind of keeps me out of pocket a lot.

Yeah.

At least 24, 25 weeks a year. So it makes it difficult to do a lot of face to face. But thanks to technology, I'm able to make myself available with juniors that I work with.

As a matter of fact, I have, I have one of the juniors that I worked with. I started working with him when he was 14. He's actually here this week acting as a hitting partner for us, so.

Right.

Yeah, it's pretty cool when you work.

With these juniors is do you make it a point to speak to the parents, to understand the parents so you better understand. It's better for you if you understand them and then if anything has to be said, you can say it.

Yes. Before I work with anyone, adult or otherwise, I have to understand who it is I'm working with. And that's my vetting and evaluation process.

And I think for me it has eliminated a lot of issues. So I know immediately after having a discussion or two with a parent, I know their positioning, I know how they're going to be involved.

I know if they're going to be overbearing, I know if they're going to be, hey, standoff, I'm handing them over to you because I trust you and so on and so forth. I know where they're going to fall and that way I know how to manage them.

I also know how to leverage them if I need to bring them in strategically as part of the team and have them provide benefit that I may not be able to or that the child will only receive from them. Yeah.

So no surprises?

I try to eliminate surprises.

And when you first, when you made the decision to work with Taylor, what characteristics in her stood out? You're like, whoa, she's. This is amazing.

That's a great question. First and foremost, her work ethic. Second, her discipline when it comes to what she's willing to do.

She'll do anything I ask her to do at pretty much any time. I could call her up at 2 o' clock in the morning and Say let's. I'm, I'm dead serious.

I could call her up at 2:00 in the morning, wake her up from a, a great night's sleep and say, we need to go downstairs and do some cardio. And she'll say, okay, give me 20 minutes. That is extreme.

But that's the level of dedication that's required if you want to really become your best, whatever that means, wherever that ends up, right? But if you really want to become your best, you have to be willing to sacrifice whatever you have right now for what you can become.

The second thing is the discipline that I mentioned. And if I say I need you to do this, this, this and this and this, then she will make sure that all of those boxes are ticked.

Now sometimes she gets the order wrong.

That's okay, that's okay.

But she will make sure every box has been ticked. And I don't have to micromanage, which is it's trust based on her consistent level of performance. So because she's performed.

This is what we were talking about earlier, right?

Looking at the pedigree, the history, the track record of result, if she hadn't proven to me that she will consistently deliver on the discipline side, then I would have to micromanage a little bit more to make sure that it's getting done. But she has proven that, so I don't have to micromanage. I can assign it and then that frees me up to then keep looking ahead and move on.

And what have you had to work on? What were areas you say, okay, we need to be a little bit better at this.

Oh, well, that's easy. Taylor came from a super deconstructive environment. Everything about Taylor's environment basically centered around you're not good enough.

And it gave the impression that nothing was ever going to be good enough. There was an, there was never a point that she could accomplish anything and it would be, wow, you're great, John.

Was this from herself or from. Exterately, both. Okay.

Largely from externally, which she then adopted because when you're in it for 14 years, you're a product of your environment, right?

So a lot of that negative self talk, a lot of that self criticism, a lot of the, you know, lack of fulfillment with successes and accomplishments, all of those things were baked in, heavily baked in. And when you're in a sport that only rewards success, it's very difficult to find the silver lining when you think you're constantly in a rainstorm.

So that was the first thing understanding that that's where she came from and then putting mechanisms in place so we could, we could start unraveling a lot of those things.

Nice. Yeah, it's interesting.

And how does it feel like this week there for her to be, you know, the world's number one doubles player, first mother to ever be female number one. But to be the world's one doubles player, how does that feel to her? I don't know. Not a question I can ask her, but. And how does it feel to you?

Yeah, good question. So super big accomplishment. Obviously, it's always nice being recognized and acknowledged for your accomplishments. Right? Everybody.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs, social acknowledgement and acceptance is on there. You want to be admired by your peers for your accomplishments and your work. That's phenomenal.

However, we already knew who the world number one doubles player, who the best doubles player was in the world. We already knew that internally. We already knew that. It just wasn't, it wasn't a specific target for something that we were aiming for.

And that makes it all the more special. It just confirms that she's living into what we already knew.

It just took a while for the rankings to catch up, but we already knew and we treat it as such, like we already. Okay, this is great. It's great for me from my perspective, it's great to have her name etched in the record books for yet another thing. Fantastic.

But we're still not done. We still have goals and objectives that we are hyper focused on that we have not hit yet, and that's where we are.

So going back to my roller coaster analogy, because I think it applies here as well. We never get too high on the highs and we never get too low on the lows, and that allows us the ability to move.

Yeah, I, I think I'm. I just get lost a little bit.

You know, the way sometimes you hear players saying they look back and they go, I should have celebrated those milestones more. Yeah, now you're living it right now. You're like, okay, we're well done. You know, we should have been here. We're here now.

We're going to keep on with so much more to do. But it is a massive milestone, being the world's best, officially. I know you knew the insight.

And it depends obviously on what type of person you are. But you hear it quite a bit. I won't say so often. We hear quite a bit. We should have appreciated the moment a bit longer. I know that.

Then you hear the tennis, you know, next in Canada this week. So you don't have time, you got to stay professional. What, what's your thought on that?

When you hear players say, oh, we should have celebrated a little bit more.

I think taking the time, celebration is relative. I think, right? Some people need to go out and have a big fanfare, like, how do you celebrate your birthday versus how do I celebrate my birthday?

We both celebrate it, right? But you may go out to a pub with your friends, family, you may have a big, you know, ta da.

And me, I'm at the beach by myself in solitude for two, three hours, reflecting and setting intentions for the upcoming year, right? We both celebrate it. It's different. Are we both fulfilled? Let's hope so.

I know that I am the way that I celebrate, and I hope that you are the way that you celebrate. And I think that's the difference.

There's not a one size fits all for how we process and accept successes and accomplishments, how we appreciate the milestones that we are able to, you know, accomplish in our lives and in our careers. But if we take the time and do it intentionally, that makes a big difference. Glazing over.

This is a sport where a lot of things get glazed over very quickly, right? Two weeks from now, how many people are going to be talking about this?

No, nobody. Nobody.

Right? But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? It doesn't make it any less significant. It's just not in the news cycle anymore.

Now there's something else to talk about. And I think when you're in, when you, when you are in that space psychologically, then you start. Because that's your environment, right?

Then you start to behave. You start to become a product of your environment. So you start to glaze over things.

Even if it's really is significant to you, you glaze over it because everybody else is and because that's how you've been conditioned. And we break the mold. We're super divergent. I mean, you can tell by my career path and background, I'm divergent. I'm the outlier, right?

I've always been the outlier in everything that I've done. I love that. I embrace that. I run toward that. That is a source of strength and power for me.

Taylor has also innately been an outlier early in her career. And it's funny because we had this discussion yesterday at lunch. She said, what I am is an outlier.

What I've been conditioned to behave like is a conformist. And that's the difference. I just said, no more of that. You're an outlier you're going to be an outlier.

You're going to embrace it, and you're going to become better at being an outlier. And that is why she has said publicly now, now I have a clear understanding of who I am, both as a person and as a player.

And that completely changed everything for her.

Yeah. It gives you so much freedom, doesn't it? Mental clarity, freedom, and Everybody. Is she 28 now, 29?

Yes.

20?

Yes.

You know, everybody finds that at different ages. Some people find at 20, some may find at 40. You know, everybody. So obviously, the sooner you find that, the better.

I. I think you may disagree, but I think it's a powerful thing to find out. How important, John, do you think it is to bring an outsider. You, for example.

I don't think you're as much as an outsider as I thought, by the way, because you did have a lot of tennis. You know, Bakara, you were in it a while, but you're. You're thinking as outsider to bring that into teams.

Do you think more people should be doing what you're doing, bringing somebody from the outside in so they get a fresh picture, they see things differently, and they don't miss out on the, you know, the simple things that by being a conformist you miss out on?

Sure. Short answer would BE yes, absolutely, 100%. There's a concept in management called the unreasonable man. And as.

As an entrepreneur, I've always sought the unreasonable man. And the unreasonable man theory is this. You have five people that you run an idea by. Right. Hey, Fabio, Guys, I'm thinking about doing this.

Here's my plan, and I lay it out. One of you has the responsibility to be the unreasonable man.

Even if you love the idea and you think it's the greatest thing you've ever heard, you have the obligation to me to make every reasonable objection as to why it will not work that you can think of and be belligerent about it. Because if you can poke a hole, then chances are it's something that I haven't thought of. It's an area that I haven't covered.

It's something that I'm thinking about one way, but I should be thinking about another way. But you highlight that, and it happens like that. Not years later, not thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars later. Right. But immediately.

And as you know, in sport time, time is your most valuable commodity because it is a finite period in which you can operate there. So the faster you can get to solutions to actions, the better off you are. And I think that's what's missing.

By and large, I think that outside view, not for the sake of being an outsider, but are you indoctrinated? Tennis, like several other sports, are very much. This is how it's always been done, so this is how we're going to do it.

And anytime you say this is how it's always been done, and that's.

That's, you know, kind of like the prelude to that second part of the statement, this is how we're going to do it, that's a problem, because everything evolves. Your television now is not the same as it was five years ago, even. Right. I don't know if you remember when plasma TVs came out.

I do.

Yeah. You remember how expensive they were and how heavy they were. And now look, you can buy an LCD television that has much higher resolution.

The thing is paper thin, and it's, you know, 2, 300 bucks.

Things. Yeah, things change quickly. You say five years ago, a year ago, things were different, you know?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Do you. Are you still using the same, you know, the same computer that you had, you know, three, four years ago? Probably not.

No.

No, no.

The computers aren't as bad. Computers aren't as bad, but in general. No, I'm not correct. If you want to be. If you want to be efficient, you got to move.

You have to be a move. You have to evolve. And that's. That's no different than. Than anything else that we're involved in. There's an evolutionary process, and either you're.

You're ahead, like, you're involved, you're embracing the evolution, or you're resisting evolution.

Is. Is that like the one where they say either you eat or you get eaten?

Yes.

Similar to that.

Yes.

Yeah. That's interesting. But you also mentioned before I came across, you say ask better questions.

Yes.

Tell me some examples of you using that, but also how you train your athletes to ask better questions.

Asking better questions can be broken into two categories, and you have to be clear on what it is you're trying to obtain. Are you trying to obtain things that you can take action on or. Or things that you can use for deeper and more meaningful understanding. If I'm.

If I'm asking you, how did you feel about your forehand today? Like, you hit some great shots today, Fabio. How'd you feel about your forehand today then? I'm asking. I'm asking you for an emotional response. Right.

Which feels good. Should feel good.

It could. Or it could feel. It could feel. Maybe you just are Ambivalent about it. Right? You're just, eh, it was okay. I thought it was okay. Then I have to.

I have to step in and ask myself, why is he just saying it's okay? I complimented his four hands today. Right. Right out of the gate. There's no mystery there.

You already know how I feel about your forehands, but are you afraid to acknowledge that for whatever reason, because you're insecure about tooting your own horn a little bit? Are you worried that I'm setting you up? You know, what's going on behind the scenes?

So when you respond like that, my next question is, well, you just say you're okay. Like, they were okay. What do you mean? Like, what would be great, Fabio, what would make you say, I hit some amazing forehands today, John.

What would that have to look like for you to say that? And now you have to. You have to process and answer that question. And you might come back and say, no, you know what? I am really happy about how I.

Okay, we just had a breakthrough. Did we not? Now you know that it's okay. Not.

Not just that it's okay, but I want you to acknowledge your wins, because we already know they're going to be a lot of losses. A lot of losses. Right.

The way that training is set up, you're going to lose a lot because I have to take you out of and keep you out of your comfort zone in order for you to improve. So they're going to be a lot of losses. But how do you celebrate your wins? Because that's the light at the end of the tunnel.

That's the refueling station. Right? The pit stop so you can get back on the racetrack.

If you don't celebrate your wins and you can't even acknowledge them, this is going to come to a screeching halt very fast.

So that's a really expanded but brief example of how asking better questions comes into play now on the player's side, because that was, from the coach's perspective, on the player's side. If your forehand's going in the net, why is it going in the net? Well, it could be any number of reasons, right?

So a better question would be, am I hitting my reference points? And then you hit another forehand, and you'll have an answer to that question. So now you've solved it. It's two balls. First one went in the net.

Second one was you. You. You asked the question after the first one, and the second one gave you an answer. So now that's two mistakes. Instead of.

10. Game over.

Right.

Just because you asked a good question, a quality question, a question that would lead you to the acquisition of data that you could then use to solve a problem or overcome a challenge.

Yeah, because as a player, you know, you're in difficult situations all the time on court. You're, you know, trying to figure out a plan. You're missing. Some days it's windy, you're missing. You do ask yourself a lot of questions, don't you?

You're trying to figure out what's wrong. And I can think. See, now, by asking better questions, you can figure stuff out a lot. You should be able to figure stuff out a lot quicker.

Exactly.

Which gets you back on track.

The human mind doesn't like a vacuum. Have you heard that expression before?

No. No.

So the human mind doesn't like a vacuum. It'll have to fill it with something. So in. In this context, we're not talking about a tangible vacuum.

We're talking about a space where there's a need for an answer or an input, but there isn't one there. So the brain has to find something to put there because it won't keep that space empty. It doesn't like placeholders.

Okay, so if I'm asking a question, that's a prompt I'm programming myself to now. Scan and find what needs to go in that spot. Now, there's no mystery. The space is filled and I can move on. Now, that may not be the right answer.

I may be close, but it may not be the right answer. But I. But now I'm in the ballpark, Right? When that doesn't happen, fear, indecision, anxiety sets in.

If the space is there, as long as the space is there, any one of those three things is present. I guarantee you, you think about every situation you've been in where you.

You delved into the unknown and you either had fear, anxiety, or indecision.

Yeah, it's all snow, but then it's a snowball and avalanche, and you're in trouble then.

And if one of those things pops up, it's very difficult to be successful in that moment with any one of those things present. If you're indecisive, your swing speed is going to slow down.

Yeah. You're no longer present.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. You're distracted. You're taken away from what you need to be focused on.

Yeah. The good quote. I'm not sure who it's by. Is it Agassi or. The best thing tennis players can have is a short is a memory.

Problem like, you know, short memory, where they can just. I know it's slightly different what we're talking about, but just forget about things.

And you may not be answering the question, but you're forgetting about things and moving on.

Exactly. At least you're not carrying the past forward.

Yeah, yeah, yes. And that's interesting. And John, I'm going to end with this question.

If you've been around tennis a while, you've seen the ups and downs, you know, you've covered a lot of areas. What is. Well, is there anything you'd change in tennis if you were to CEO tennis today?

Yes, I would change the necessity for players to be forced to basically play almost all year long in order to maintain and achieve ranking levels. That would, that would probably be the first thing because that will have a.

That's an umbrella that covers mental health by majority, it covers physical health by majority.

I think it covers the quality by majority because I think if you had players that were a bit more well rested, bit more mentally fresh, they come into events in a much better space and are able to produce a higher level of quality for the duration of the event. And when you have these players cycling in and out now overall as a sport, you've elevated the quality of the sport.

I think Anna Samova has a perfect example of that. Coming into Wimbledon.

If you look at what she played prior to the, the volume of tennis that she played prior to, she was relatively fresh physically, yes, but also psychologically and emotionally. So she came in ready to compete and we saw a great run by her, an outstanding level of play and quality performance.

And I think we could see that a lot more.

The crazy thing is if you look at the top players and you look at how much, how they choose their schedule, we see that, we've seen that for a long time now. So this is not a new concept. The only difference is they're going to semifinals, finals, every tournament they play.

So their points and ranking is such that it affords them the ability to miss a week here, to take time off here without dropping too far in the ranking points and suffering any significant negative consequences.

Is it a bit of chicken and egg for maybe not the top, top players, but like a bit lower than rank, let's say like 5 to 30 or 40, where they could take more time off, they can take. There's nothing stopping them taking more time off really, is there?

I know they may get fined if certain minimum tournaments to play, they've maybe sponsored obligations, but ultimately they could take a bit more time off to work on the little things they have to work on, do training blocks or take holidays and which would make them fresher to play. Is there a fear there, do you think with some players that, you know, I got to be playing every week, the forehand goes if I don't play every week.

Do you think that's a bit of it as well? I think as a, as an amateur player, I find that if I don't play every week, I lose my groove. So these guys and girls, the best.

Do you see it, do you hear it? That, you know, I have to play every week because my forehand's going to go back and is going to go or whatever. So fear.

Is fear something that stops them from playing every week?

I think that's a major component, Fabio, to be honest, I think fear is a major component to that, to that driving.

There's also, you know, the fear of not just that their form is going to go off, but that somebody else is going to move up or get better or pass them. Right. And I think that there's a healthy balance to that.

But generally if you're operating from a place of fear, then you're not operating in a, in a really productive or optimal fashion, regardless of what we're talking about.

Yeah, because look, I've spoken to enough where it's pro. Look, we're process driven, trust the process. And is there not a bit in the process that says I think you need to take a month off here?

I think that's the only bit they don't trust where if they're told, look, you need time off here because we, as you said, Ansimova had some time off, Sinner had some time off. He's so fresh. At Wimbledon, Alcaraz looked a bit tired. At Wimbledon, players get injured, they come back from injury, they're fresh.

And so, yeah, look, I agree with you on the resting and you're right, ATP Tour, WTA Tour could be doing something more to help out the lower ranked players to force them to take some time off.

I think Sinner had a perfect example leading into Rome. He had a nice little vacation there leading into Rome. He could get up, you know, what was it, a 8 week, 12 week training block?

I don't remember how much time he had off, but who gets that?

They don't get it like they got at Covid. They got it at Covid.

I'm not sure if she was off for a while, but yeah.

Anyway, she missed the Asia swing.

Yeah. So, yeah, you know, she's, I won't say now she's reaped the repercussions of it because, yeah, I think she was the fastest server in Wimbledon.

Female.

I think she was hitting the biggest serves, which, you know, like our serve as a target before and now all of a sudden she's become an assassin with the serve, which is, which is kind of crazy, right? Yeah.

Right.

Been a pleasure. I've learned a lot today and great to, great to get a different view on coaching, so thank you very much.

Yeah, I love it, man. I'm happy to do it. Thanks for having me.

Sam.