Artwork for podcast Changing Academic Life
Susanne Bødker on career, culture and choices
Episode 5 • 11th October 2023 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
00:00:00 01:07:21

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Professor Susanne Bødker is a professor of Human Computer Interaction at Aarhus University in Denmark. She reflects on 40 years at Aarhus University (AU) touching on issues including mobility, changes over time, hiring practices, creating collegial culture, being active in university politics, transitioning to retirement, being a single parent, among many others. You’ll hear a strongly held set of values around participation and human connections. Susanne is one of the most respected and impactful HCI researchers yet you’ll also hear her humility. Thank you Susanne for a career well served and that will hopefully continue in some ways as you explore your new opportunities.

Apologies for missing music - trying to get that sorted!

Overview

0:05 Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

[00:00:29] Episode introduction

[00:02:21] Susanne introduces herself and her PhD times

[00:14:36] Reflecting on 40 years in Aarhus

[00:21:31] The collegial social culture at Aarhus

[00:25:29] Hiring people for fit

[00:30:18] The value of mobility

[00:38:06] The big changes over time

[00:40:49] Being involved in university politics

[00:47:39] Transitioning to retirement

[00:54:39] How she sees her legacy

[01:00:05] Being a single parent

[01:04:52] Wrapping up

01:07:21 End

Related links:

Susanne Bødker, Google Scholar profile 

Her published thesis: Susanne Bødker, Through the Interface: A Human Activity Approach to User Interface Design, Routledge, 1990

Austrian Academy of Sciences Lecture, 21 Sept 2023, “How do we understand tools, and why is that important for contemporary human-computer interaction?"

Morten Kyng, Kristen Nygaard, Kim Halskov, Joan Greenbaum 

Winograd, Terry and Flores, Fernando, Understanding Computers and Cognition: A New Foundation for Design, Intellect Books, 1986. 

Dreyfus, Stuart E. and Dreyfus, Hubert L. (1986). Mind over Machine. New York, NY: Free Press.

Utopia project & Participatory IT (PIT) Centre 

Keywords:

Academia, Career paths, Research culture, Retirement, Values

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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

:

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

:

This is a really special conversation

with the amazing Susanne Bødker.

6

:

Susanne is a professor of

human computer interaction at

7

:

Aarhus university in Denmark.

8

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I was really glad to be able to get

some face-to-face time with her.

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When she recently visited Vienna.

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:

To give an invited lecture for

the Austrian academy of sciences.

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:

On the 21st of September 23.

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:

And I wanted to release

this conversation now.

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To mark her transition to post

university life at the end of September.

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In this conversation, she reflects

on her 40 years at Aarhus touching

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:

on a range of issues, including

her own career path and choices.

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:

The value of mobility

changes she's seen over time.

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Hiring practices, creating collegial

culture, being active in university

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:

politics, transitioning to

retirement, being a single parent.

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:

Among many other issues.

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:

What I think though, that

you'll hear across all of these.

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:

is a really strongly held

and enacted set of values.

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Around participation.

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Around giving voice to people.

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And around holding human

connections as important.

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And that's whether she's talking about

work colleagues or family or friends,

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And Susanne is one of the most

respected and impactful human

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computer interaction researchers.

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Yet.

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You'll also hear her humility.

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I think that's pretty special.

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So thank you, Susanne

for a career well-served.

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And that will hopefully continue in

some ways, as you explore your new

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opportunities in this new phase.

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And to you, the listener

enjoy this conversation.

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Susanne, thank you very

much for joining me.

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And do you want to just

introduce yourself?

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Susanne: I can do that.

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I am Susanne Bødker.

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I worked in the computer

science department at Aarhus

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University for 40 years.

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And, um, I'm doing research

in human computer interaction.

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And I think...

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I basically done that since

before there was anything much

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called human computer interaction.

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So in that sense I've been part

of that journey over the years

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and that's what I've done.

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I've been teaching, I've been doing

research and also As it happens,

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quite a lot of sort of university

politics and stuff like that.

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I guess I tend to involve myself

in things when I get the chance.

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Geri: which fits in a way with your

participatory theme that really runs as a

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red thread through all of your research.

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Susanne: Yes, indeed.

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So I think it's, it is in a

way a two way thing, right?

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If you want other people to engage.

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then you probably should or,

yeah, should also engage in the

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world around you, basically.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Did you do your undergraduate

degree at Aarhus as well?

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Susanne: I did.

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Yes.

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Yeah, I, so I studied at Aarhus

University, uh, from:

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actually, to, uh, 81, 82.

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And then I was away, for a good year.

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And then, so then I've been working

there , since:

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Uh, I mean, it was in the days when you

actually also had a job when you were

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doing your PhD, of course, which is a lot

different, I think, from most places and

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also from the way it is in Aarhus now.

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Yeah, so I've been teaching

and doing those kind of things

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all the time, basically.

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Geri: So was it computer science then?

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Yes.

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So it wasn't just

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Susanne: [mathematics]?

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It was, uh, I formally have a degree in

mathematics because the, uh, computer

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science degree was only a specialization

of mathematics back in the days.

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And I think I, I honestly started, uh,

started studying because I thought I

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wanted to do high school mathematics.

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And then I found out really soon

after that, that, you know, actually

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I wasn't very good at mathematics.

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And, and, uh, so, so the other

thing was then the choices you

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would have for sort of secondary

topics in those days was physics and

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statistics and, and computer science.

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And so I ended up doing this thing

that could be statistics or computer

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science just because I didn't

want to do physics, basically.

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[That's interesting].

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Yeah.

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So, so I realized that, that, you

know, it was an interesting field.

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It was an upcoming field.

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It was also, because it was so new,

it was kind of, a good place to be.

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The, you know, a lot of, uh.

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social activities also with the

teachers and the students and so on.

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So in that sense, I decided that

mathematics was not my thing, but

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the, how can you say, because of the

construction of what you could and

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couldn't do, I mean, I'd almost finished

my minor in mathematics before I realized.

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So I carried on with

that, even though I...

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I was considering some other topics.

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Actually, I was thinking maybe archaeology

at the time, but, but I never got to

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it because then, you know, I spent the

credits needed to be a mathematician

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or at least a minor in mathematics

and that was, that was basically it.

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Yeah.

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Geri: So you must have been really

radical then to be doing from

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the very beginning all of the....

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perspectives that you've taken in your

research around the focus on people

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and the interface and drawing on things

like activity theory from Russian

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psychology traditions and that must

was that very different or within the

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Danish tradition was it not so different

because I'm just thinking back to

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that sort of day in computer science

when it was much more Mathematical and

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Susanne: [engineering focused].

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It was, but I would say we did

in Aarhus at the time have people

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who did those kind of things.

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And, so Morten Kyng for instance.

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But also Christian Nygaard who was

visiting on and off coming down from

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Oslo and Working with these, uh,

different kinds of projects, both with

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the labor unions, but also just thinking

differently about what programming

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would be, how you would involve

people in, in some of those things.

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And, and I think, so I don't think

it was like, it didn't feel very

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radical in that, in that sense.

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I think I, I got into this whole business

of activity theory, basically because...

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We were, we were doing a study group with

a psychologists at AU around an early

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version of the Winograd and Flores book.

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So this must have been

:

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So at that time Psychology in Aarhus had

a very big group of theoretical thinkers

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who were inspired by by activity theory.

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And I mean, some of them are still

active and still working in that field.

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So I I don't know.

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I'm not sure.

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I mean, again, of course, I spent

quite a lot of time understanding

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it and working with it in my PhD.

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But I didn't.

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I mean, it wasn't like

looking it up somewhere.

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It came kind of natural out of

this discussions we had about the

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Winograd and Flores and, and the

Dreyfus and Dreyfus book later on.

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[You could]

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Geri: make the connections and see how

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Susanne: [it was applicable].

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Yeah, and I still remember there

was a master thesis student in

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psychology , who had done some of

this , taking activity into account.

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And.

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He was talking about it.

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It's not an interface.

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It's an interspace.

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I remember that he said.

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And I think, you know, things like that.

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He didn't take it very far

in the first place at all.

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He also took a very long time

to finish his master's thesis.

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But it was those kind of things that kind

of made me think that it could be possible

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to find other theoretical foundations

than the GOMS model and stuff like that.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Isn't it fascinating how, I don't

know, like , the opportunities that

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we have or the ways our thinking is

shaped, the ways our opportunities

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are shaped just by things like Morton

Kyng being there, having psychologists

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there that you had access to who opened

up this particular way of thinking.

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[Yeah].

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Susanne: No, I think that it's true.

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I mean, there's a lot of sort

of circumstances in this.

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[There is, isn't there]?

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So, so in a sense, it's not, I

mean, of course I, I mean, I did

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it, it's not like that, right?

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But, but I don't sort of think

of it as something that was

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very out of the ordinary or

very extreme in any sort of way.

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I think I did other things PhD

that maybe was a little bit like...

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Extraordinary.

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So I decided to write a book, right?

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I decided that this couldn't be

sort of done as a series of papers,

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of articles, basically because

it would take too much effort.

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To to sort of establish the

framework for each of the papers.

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I mean, not that I didn't write papers

during my PhD, but but I think that was

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pretty much the reason why I thought a

monography was kind of the thing to do,

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even though that was a bit extraordinary.

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I think it was also not easy, and,

and it took a lot more effort than I

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would recommend any of my PhD students

to do today, but I think there are also

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many other ways in which the situation

was different in those days, right?

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So there wasn't quite the time

pressure, at least that we have on the

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PhD students and all of us nowadays.

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Geri: Yeah.

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But what you said about the reason why

you chose the monograph as the model.

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[Yeah].

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Is what I think makes it really good

for a PhD thesis because, I don't know,

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I clearly am biased against cumulative

theses because I think that they miss the

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opportunity to do that deeper thinking

and reflection and sort of really laying

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out that positioning and the theoretical

grounding of the work or really drawing

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out the implications or the threads across

lots of work that might be distributed

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Susanne: [across papers].

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Yeah, no, I agree.

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I think it definitely has merits, right?

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So I don't have regrets that I

did it, but I think I had this.

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I mean, of course, it also ended up

being a book that got published and

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so on, which wasn't the intent in

the first place, but, and it took

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a lot of work to, to finish that.

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And I think I promised myself

I would never do a book again.

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[And how many have you done since]?

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Not that many, but I

have done other books.

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[And then you go, what was I thinking]?

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Geri: [Yeah, yeah, yeah].

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And that's, but it has been

a very influential book.

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[Yes, oh yeah].

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Like really,

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Susanne: [really influential].

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And I still meet people

who read it, right?

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[Yeah].

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Yeah, so that, that's,

that's obviously quite nice.

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[That must be rewarding].

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Yeah, yeah, I think it is, I think it is.

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Yeah.

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I mean a lot of what we do is also still

building on that foundation, right?

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And, and so.

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In that sense, it was also, I mean,

I found myself as, as, uh, well,

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you know, and we talked about.

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So I had for the past five years this ERC

grant about common interactive objects.

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And I mean, I found myself when I was

writing that proposal, basically going

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back to a lot of these things and

thinking, well, you know, it wasn't.

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It's really bad what we

suggested, sort of, way back when.

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So actually writing the proposal and

doing it, you know, sometimes it's

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felt as if there's not so much new

in it, but I think it, there is.

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I mean, I obviously think we moved it

to places that it wasn't before and

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there's much more coherence and so on.

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But I think many of the

ideas were actually...

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Like having a long trail back, back

from my thesis work and, and to

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some of the work after and so on.

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So I find that quite interesting.

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Geri: Yeah, yeah.

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So only in the writing of the proposal

that you actually reflected on the

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fact that it was the same or had you

always been more conscious of that

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being the grounding work from your

thesis that was a strong red thread.

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Susanne: No, I don't think I realized

like all the time and thought about that

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This was it was obviously was not like

an agenda that I pushed that I would stay

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with it or anything like that It was more

that you know, when you started thinking

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about various elements of what you wanted

to be there You realize that you know,

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hey, I've written about some of this

in the past In the thesis or after, you

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know, after the thesis in various forms.

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So I think that it's just interesting.

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[It is really]

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Geri: interesting.

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It's a lovely book ending.

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[Yeah] of the career, which

we'll come to in a tick.

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[Yeah].

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I'm curious about the 40 years at Aarhus

and How that came about, you know How you

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reflect back on staying in the one place?

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[Yeah], what values or?

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What trade offs did you

make to choose that?

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Susanne: Yeah in a way, you know, I

think it's a really good question and

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quite obviously I have considered moving,

I mean, several times along the way.

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I think a lot of the reason why

I ended up staying was in a way

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more personal issues, right?

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I'm not saying I wouldn't have been

happy elsewhere and so on, but there

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were various hiccups along the way and

at the end, I, I mean, I, I, I like it

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where I am and I kind of like, uh, the

way, you know, my social life and all of

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those things and, you know, I, I've got,

I got offered various jobs along the way.

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I, I don't know.

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I, I think you always have

all these concerns, right?

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I remember thinking about moving to

the UK with a teenage son who first

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thought that, that, well, you know, he

could become a Manchester United fan.

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But, but, you know, at the

end, it wasn't the thing.

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And, and I also.

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I do remember thinking earlier about

commuting to a different university

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in Denmark, or moving, which I didn't

really want to do at the time, and

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um, yeah, so, it's not, again I don't

see, I mean that, that hasn't been

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like a big plan for me that I would

stay and know who's on at this time.

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I don't think it's something that

I've thought about a lot, like the

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past, maybe 20 years, but obviously

along the way it has been a thing.

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And I mean, I did, I've always

enjoyed doing these sort of shorter

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sabbaticals, or stays abroad, and

so I've been to various places.

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I mean, I also was away

for a year after my...

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Master's thesis graduation before

I started working in university.

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So I did spend quite a lot of time

in California at Xerox PARC and

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But I thought [that would have]

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Geri: been good days at Xerox Parc

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Susanne: It was.

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I'm not sure I Understood how good

days it was, you know, I mean I kind

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of think afterwards of course it was

you know, the chance of a lifetime and

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then I enjoyed it there, but I think

I'm not sure, you know, you don't quite

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know what you're getting yourself into.

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[Yeah] . But I, I mean, I've spent

time also in Stockholm and in Paris.

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So, so I've always enjoyed, like,

going places and spending a bit more

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time than just a short visit um, and I

think that that has also kept me going

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that, that, you know, I had the chance

of doing those things along the way.

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Geri: [Yeah].

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So you still had the opportunity

to, to network, build those

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relationships and travel.

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[Yeah].

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But it sounds like also that family

and community were also important

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priorities and staying has enabled

them to take precedence in

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Susanne: [some way].

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Yeah, yeah.

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There's no doubt that this, that's true.

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And I made choices based on that.

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I mean, Aarhus University has

also been, a good, good employer

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for me in various ways, right?

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I did have a career.

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They did offer me, also career moves.

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Not, I mean, Probably nobody has, like,

just gotten, like, to be a full professor,

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exactly at the moment when they think

they're ready for it and, and so on.

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But I think, you know, with a bit

of, uh, sort of work and pushing

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and, and, and so on, it, uh, I did.

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And, and, I mean, , it's been

a good place to be like that.

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Actually, I think it's

a very good, partner.

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Overall, we have a lot of fun together.

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There's always been a good

social life in the department.

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and for many years we've been,

yeah, you know, very sort of aligned

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in what we want to do and so on.

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And a lot of respect for all sorts of

computer science to, to come back to

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maybe also what, you know, your questions.

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So.

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I mean, I don't think it was easy in

the early years to establish the kind

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of HCI and the kind of computer science

that we wanted to do in the department.

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But I think that's sort of a thing

of the past and it was also, you

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know, partly a thing of the people

who were there at the time and, you

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know, it's just, it's different now.

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There's a strong recognition that we

do our part and, you know, we're as

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strong researchers as anybody else.

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And, I mean, things like getting

an ESC advance grant is obviously,

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you know, it helps, right?

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I mean, the department as such

is very strong in that field.

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And, I mean, we, we had.

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Over a short period of time, uh, three ERC

advanced grants and, you know, that's, I

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think that's not actually very common.

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[Yeah].

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Yeah.

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And, uh, I mean, I think

INRIA has more, right?

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But otherwise, if you look at computer

science departments, it's not that common.

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So I think in that sense,

we're, we're, we're sort of.

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We're good because we know we're doing

well and it's a lot easier when you know

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Geri: [that].

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Yes, yes, you have some of that external

validation of, of it being okay.

325

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Many people I talk to are challenged

with the thing of, their research

326

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area not being as respected in more

mainstream computer science departments.

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And it sounds like your

department has done a really

328

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good job and from early days.

329

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So you talked about things like.

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the good social atmosphere, you know,

social, socialization and the respect

331

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for one another and, and also aligned.

332

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Can you say some more about that?

333

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Like how does that all play out

practically that you were able to

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build this from the beginning and more

importantly, I think sustain it and

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:

build it because you must've had lots

of people come and go over the time.

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So there must be some core, something

core about the culture there.

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Susanne: Yeah.

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I think.

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First of all, that the people who are

sort of the early generation of the

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:

computer science department that I'm

really too young to belong with in

341

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a way, they were quite social and

quite good with each other ,like that.

342

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And so they, They, you know, they were

just very good at making sure that there

343

:

was a social life in the department and...

344

:

[Was]

345

:

Geri: that like Friday afternoon drinks?

346

:

Yeah.

347

:

Or going out bowling or like...

348

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[Yeah],

349

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Susanne: and summer parties,

Christmas parties and stuff like that.

350

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And, we still do that.

351

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We also do things like going

on retreats together all...

352

:

All of the senior staff in the department

and I think obviously it has a, I mean,

353

:

it's often about things and changing

the, I don't know, the curriculum,

354

:

what have you, it has to be an agenda.

355

:

But I think the social part

is also recognized by all

356

:

as an important part of,

357

:

Geri: [of going and doing these things].

358

:

So the relationship building.

359

:

So would you do those

retreats once a year?

360

:

Susanne: Yes.

361

:

Mostly.

362

:

I mean, COVID has, of course, as with

many things, changed that a little bit,

363

:

but, but yeah, and, uh, and we normally

go places where we also, um, for many

364

:

years, we had a head of department who

was very much into, uh, running and

365

:

orienteering and stuff, and I think,

you know, it's always been part of it

366

:

to, like, go on walks or do other kinds

of activities and not just sitting in

367

:

a meeting room and do formal business.

368

:

Uh, so I think that, you know,

there are many, many ways that

369

:

this has been been handed over

and, and, uh, yeah, I don't know.

370

:

I mean, [do you have]

371

:

Geri: a common room that

everyone goes to for morning tea?

372

:

[We're not very, we're]

373

:

Susanne: not very good

with that, to be honest.

374

:

Yeah.

375

:

[So it]

376

:

Geri: is more the sort of

special events and [yeah.

377

:

Yeah].

378

:

Susanne: Okay.

379

:

We have a.

380

:

monthly staff meeting, uh, but,

but I don't, I mean, I wouldn't

381

:

say that that's a particularly

well sort of functioning thing.

382

:

It's difficult to just even

find a room that's suitable

383

:

for, for those kind of things.

384

:

So anyway, so I think that it's

not unproblematic to say.

385

:

Geri: Are there any other things that the

department has done over the years that

386

:

you think has really contributed to this?

387

:

It sounds like a very

collegial sort of culture,

388

:

Susanne: [respectful].

389

:

I think it's, I don't know that the social

thing is kind of one thing, but I think

390

:

we have realized over the years that

people are generally good researchers

391

:

and performing well and, and so on.

392

:

And I think, you know,

even though you may.

393

:

not always like the idea that, that, you

know, there's benchmarking and there's

394

:

this and that, you know, I think there's,

it's part of the respect that people

395

:

have for each other that, that, you know,

that your colleagues are all doing well.

396

:

And, and I mean, it also means that we're

very sort of picky about who we hire.

397

:

And I think sometimes

that is a challenge also.

398

:

I mean, it's, you know, it's sometimes

It's the case that there are people

399

:

that, you know, you really love to

hire in various ways that we end

400

:

up not hiring because they haven't

the merits that, that we need.

401

:

And it's an interesting sort of,

402

:

Geri: the academic merits.

403

:

[Yeah].

404

:

So that, so you're looking at

both the personal qualities

405

:

and that sort of fit and the

406

:

Susanne: [academic sort of].

407

:

Yes, we do.

408

:

Yes, we do.

409

:

Yeah.

410

:

And it also means that we spend

quite a lot of time when we're

411

:

hiring people to be honest, you

know, it requires a lot of energy.

412

:

[I was just going to]

413

:

Geri: ask you how you do that because

I think hiring is really challenging

414

:

and especially these days as more and

more institutions are moving into some

415

:

of the models where we're not relying

on quantitative measures so much but

416

:

allowing people to tell more qualitative,

contextualized stories of their research

417

:

and how do we assess people both from

a work point of view and from a fit?

418

:

[Yeah].

419

:

Susanne: I know, I think.

420

:

I don't have an easy answer to that.

421

:

Quite some years ago, we decided

that we are always bringing, I mean,

422

:

the people we're shortlisting are

sort of who we think are relevant.

423

:

Obviously, we do get a lot of applicants

that we don't consider like that.

424

:

But we bring them over and they

get to spend time with us and we

425

:

do interviews and they give talks.

426

:

We, you know, they get a chance

to go meet all the research groups

427

:

and not just the group that we

think they should belong with.

428

:

And so we actually spent quite

a lot of energy on people

429

:

we get for job interviews.

430

:

So I think we do get a fairly good

impression also of You know, how

431

:

interested they are in the department,

how keen they are to join, basically.

432

:

And, um, and, and of course, on top

of that, we're concerned with, you

433

:

know, The academic merits and can they

attract funding and what have you that

434

:

we also need to concern ourselves with.

435

:

But I think it works, but the

thing is It's a lot of effort for

436

:

whoever gets to be on the hiring

committee for these particular rounds.

437

:

And, it can be a bit challenging

at times, I would say.

438

:

Also because, You know, my general feeling

is that every time we make four offers

439

:

to people, we're probably getting one.

440

:

And, of course, it's a sign

that the people we try to hire

441

:

are very competitive also.

442

:

Yeah, but also about the things.

443

:

So it's a lot of work,

but I think it pays off.

444

:

I think we had a few experiences

like maybe, I don't know, 10

445

:

years ago of hiring people that

we thought really didn't fit,

446

:

and we don't want that, basically.

447

:

Geri: So the effort is worth

it for getting better fits.

448

:

Yeah.

449

:

Yeah, and the fit matters.

450

:

Susanne: It does, it does.

451

:

Geri: I'm not expecting

you to have an answer.

452

:

I often wonder about, um, the performative

aspects of these job interviews and you

453

:

know, that when you are going around

and meeting lots of people and you

454

:

know, standing up and giving a talk

and fronting the interview and I'm

455

:

thinking of panels I've been on and

that some people are very, very good

456

:

at presenting themselves and doing

that, whether they're sort of more

457

:

extroverts, or if you believe in those

sorts of spectrums or whatever, but,

458

:

um, and then there are other people who

find these sort of social interactions

459

:

a little bit more challenging and

need more time to build relationships.

460

:

And I wonder whether we miss out on some

good people and some good fits because

461

:

of the necessary pressures of the time.

462

:

[Yep].

463

:

Susanne: I think that it's very likely.

464

:

I think.

465

:

Somehow I would say maybe it's

very Danish in a way to not be

466

:

terribly impressed by these.

467

:

I mean, there's a certain also,

for instance, a very American style

468

:

of how you're selling yourself.

469

:

And I don't know.

470

:

I mean, I think we, I'm not saying

we're not hiring people like that,

471

:

but I think some, some of it is

also seeing in a way behind that.

472

:

And, um...

473

:

And I also, I mean, we also do give

people a chance to meet with research

474

:

groups and the research committee

and so on in smaller groups and,

475

:

and over a couple of days, right?

476

:

So they do.

477

:

I don't know.

478

:

I, I don't think we've often like

had people who are really just not,

479

:

not performing socially like that.

480

:

[Yeah.

481

:

Yeah.

482

:

Yeah].

483

:

Geri: And a couple of days.

484

:

It does give you time just

to sort of settle into it,

485

:

Susanne: [versus an intense hour].

486

:

And often a lot of these people

do know somebody in the department

487

:

already and they get sort of

taken out for dinner and stuff.

488

:

And I think it's all part of making

people feel comfortable also.

489

:

Geri: Thinking about people applying

for jobs and that, and you've

490

:

been at Aarhus for 40 years.

491

:

How do you talk to your students now

about issues of mobility and whatever?

492

:

And also looking, when you're

looking at people who are applying

493

:

for jobs, you know, like how did

those sorts of factors play in?

494

:

[Yeah]

495

:

Susanne: I think it's

an interesting question.

496

:

Because somehow the way things

are, for instance, with funding,

497

:

at least in Denmark, I think it's

probably true other places as

498

:

well, mobility is important, right?

499

:

You do need to show that you've

been able to work in different

500

:

places and do different things.

501

:

And I think that is on and off a

challenge for our local talent.

502

:

And, and again, it gets a

little bit back to this sort

503

:

of work life situation, right?

504

:

So, so I think there's a certain

way in which you have to play

505

:

the game of, of doing this.

506

:

So you have to go abroad

as a postdoc or something.

507

:

But I do find it slightly

ironic at times that.

508

:

It's kind of easier to hire somebody

who comes from elsewhere than

509

:

one of your own students, right?

510

:

And I think that's, it's sad.

511

:

And it's definitely something

we also, we're thinking about.

512

:

And, again, we try to not have, sort

of, Too formalistic and too strict ways

513

:

of thinking about this, but I do think

it is kind of Hurting the people who

514

:

we take in as PhD students and who we

have staying for a while and so so You

515

:

basically need to have the conversation

with people about You know going away

516

:

for a while and then maybe coming back

and so on and yeah, so I think it needs

517

:

to be articulated and talked about.

518

:

Geri: They're interesting tensions

and trade offs because, you said

519

:

about we often think that someone from

outside is more attractive, you know,

520

:

than someone that we know better.

521

:

and that's just a common thing.

522

:

One of our biases,

unconscious biases, I think.

523

:

[Yeah].

524

:

So there's that side of it.

525

:

And can we be less...

526

:

Biased in that way.

527

:

[Yeah], be more open.

528

:

What if we imagine this

person as coming from outside?

529

:

How would we think?

530

:

[Yeah].

531

:

And also just for people themselves.

532

:

I really think it's important that

people have the right to choose to

533

:

stay living somewhere because that's

where their family is or that's

534

:

where they have other commitments.

535

:

So that's where a partner

has commitments and not.

536

:

To be penalized in our processes.

537

:

Susanne: Yeah, yeah.

538

:

No, I think that's absolutely correct.

539

:

I think, at the same time

though, I do think you learn

540

:

from being in different places.

541

:

Like, I don't think, I mean,

professionally, academically, it's not a

542

:

good idea to just stay in the same place.

543

:

Right.

544

:

It's not only because the research

councils and others think that it's a

545

:

good idea to to move, but I think There's

something about shifting perspective and

546

:

and also I think maturing and growing up

as a as a person as a researcher Where

547

:

you're helped when you're going places.

548

:

Geri: [Right].

549

:

And you're just seeing

different ways of doing

550

:

Susanne: [things].

551

:

Yes, exactly.

552

:

and ways of doing things both in

terms of, you know, how do you, how

553

:

do you work in the research group?

554

:

How do you manage?

555

:

How do you, like in Aarhus,

we, for instance, have We

556

:

generally have bigger groups.

557

:

We don't have this German system of

one professor and one group, right?

558

:

But, but I think it obviously

has, I mean, we like it.

559

:

That's why we have it.

560

:

But surely you can also learn from

being in a different kind of context.

561

:

For instance, one of the.

562

:

Things you can learn or think about

is different ways of organizing the

563

:

research groups, different ways of

thinking about how you want to grow

564

:

your research group, but different.

565

:

I mean, and you and I had these

CHI early career symposia.

566

:

And I think, for instance, you know,

thinking about whether you want to

567

:

be the first and one and only HCI

person in a, uh, Computer Science

568

:

Department somewhere in Texas, not

to pick on that particularly, right?

569

:

Or you want to go and join a place where

there's already a bigger group of people.

570

:

I think it's one of these things that

you can reflect on, but that you may

571

:

need to see a few different options to

really find out what's going on, right?

572

:

And so in that sense I think it

is a good idea that people [Yes].

573

:

Go places.

574

:

Then, I think it's also important,

as you were saying, to be

575

:

flexible about what that means.

576

:

Geri: And you're a good example of

delivering on that going to different

577

:

places in a different model than someone

else who might have actually had employed

578

:

Susanne: [positions in different places].

579

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

580

:

But I think in a way, you could also

say, you know, I'm too old to, the,

581

:

a lot of the measures that people

are measured with today didn't

582

:

really apply when I was young.

583

:

I think I often feel

that this is the case.

584

:

Maybe I would never have, you know, have

made it or, or, you know, maybe, maybe

585

:

my life would have been different is in.

586

:

If some of these measures were in

place when I was young, I don't know.

587

:

I mean, it's of course pure speculation,

but I do think we also lose some

588

:

people just with this thing that we

push them out and we send them off.

589

:

But of course it also has to do with.

590

:

The whole financial situation of

the university is, for instance,

591

:

the fact that we are very relying

,on external funding, right?

592

:

We can't, we being at least the

computer science department, it

593

:

almost can't, you know, have people.

594

:

We can have a few, but we generally

cannot have people who are not

595

:

getting funding and who are

not doing those kind of things.

596

:

Because.

597

:

We are also measured and counted

in so many ways, like both by the

598

:

university and also by, you know,

the government society at large.

599

:

That we can't just acknowledge

these things, right?

600

:

I think we can make exceptions, but I

think the other thing is obviously how

601

:

you, how you talk about that internally

in the department if you choose to hire.

602

:

Somebody who is not, in a way, at sort

of the usual level in one way or another.

603

:

Which, I think, can be difficult.

604

:

Uh, even though maybe you can make any

number of reasons why you've done this.

605

:

Yeah.

606

:

Yeah.

607

:

Geri: Yeah, the complex

environments, universities.

608

:

So many different competing constraints.

609

:

[Yes].

610

:

And just the basic fact

of limited resources.

611

:

Susanne: Yes.

612

:

Geri: When you look back, you know, you

talked about the metrics that weren't

613

:

in place then, that are more what people

measure by now, what are some of the big

614

:

changes that you think you've seen and

how do you reflect on them as in, are

615

:

they heading in a good direction or not?

616

:

Susanne: Yeah, I do think that this

whole business of, I mean, you can say

617

:

Google Scholar, but it's not, of course,

it's not just Google Scholar, it's

618

:

also Web of Science and all of those

things that are, you know, it kind of

619

:

changed the way we can all look at it.

620

:

[Yeah] colleagues or competitors or

whatever they are, right, and see

621

:

what they've done, how they, they're

performing and so on and find out also

622

:

maybe in a way what are the levels

that you're talking about, right?

623

:

[Mm].

624

:

And, uh.

625

:

[Yeah, because they didn't exist].

626

:

I think in a way, you know, it can be.

627

:

Okay.

628

:

And as I was saying, I think for my

department, maybe it was also in a way

629

:

a, a kind of a relief to see that people

were actually performing quite well.

630

:

Then I, you know, it's rather obvious

that even within computer science or

631

:

within anything, I think even within

HCI, there's a lot of difference.

632

:

You know, these measures

are not absolute, right?

633

:

so even things like

people's h- index, differ.

634

:

It's quite a lot across, for instance,

the field of computer science, right?

635

:

There are areas where you got very many

citations, very, you know, many authors

636

:

in some cases, but also just many papers.

637

:

And then there are others

where this is not the case.

638

:

So you can't understand this without

looking more specifically, comparing

639

:

more specifically with other people.

640

:

But I think that it has created a change,

uh, that that this is a possibility to

641

:

for everybody to look at and be aware of.

642

:

And I think it's, you know,

it's for good and for bad.

643

:

It's, it's good enough because it kind

of articulates some of the ways in

644

:

which you are measured, no matter,

no matter what, in a way, right?

645

:

But quite obviously, if you're not

looking also on the quality of what

646

:

people doing, and What other stuff

they're also doing, right, then, then

647

:

it's not worth a whole lot, really.

648

:

Yeah.

649

:

Geri: Yeah.

650

:

I know that, that is a really interesting

challenge, the plus and minus.

651

:

You also said that you, , at the beginning

you talked about being involved in

652

:

teaching and research and that, and also

you mentioned university politics, and

653

:

that you always tend to get involved.

654

:

What, what sort of roles were you

involved in in politics and how have

655

:

you been able to shape your university

656

:

Susanne: [through that]?

657

:

I was, yes.

658

:

First of all, I think what I've done most

sort of explicitly that is university

659

:

politics is that I was on the Aarhus

university board of directors for eight

660

:

years, which is the sort of links that

you can be as a representing the academic

661

:

staff I think with that as with, you know,

even if you become a member of your, the

662

:

board of your child's daycare, whatever,

you know, it gives a certain insight

663

:

when you get to see the budgeting,

the, the deliberations and so on.

664

:

So I think I, I find

it interesting because.

665

:

Because it is a way of understanding

a lot better, all these constraints

666

:

and what's happening and so on.

667

:

So I enjoyed it a lot, and other than

that, you know, I've been, I can, I

668

:

can almost not remember, but I had

many years on the sort of, uh, teaching

669

:

committees of the department and so on.

670

:

But it's, it's really in the past.

671

:

I haven't done that for maybe the

past 20 years and I liked it.

672

:

But then again, I think I did like at

least four reforms of our curriculum

673

:

and it takes a lot of work every time.

674

:

So, so I'm also happy that I,

I'm not doing that anymore.

675

:

[Giving other people the

opportunity to do it].

676

:

Yes, you can, you can say that.

677

:

and I mean, I've been involved with

the sort of department, management may

678

:

not be the right word, right, but, but

sort of leadership over the years with,

679

:

uh, we have, uh, for many years been

organized with this research committee,

680

:

which is basically, eight to ten.

681

:

professors of the department.

682

:

I've done that over many years and

sometimes we've also like had to do

683

:

formal management because for reasons

all of a sudden say we didn't have

684

:

a head of department for a while,

stuff like that, but mostly it's

685

:

been more in a sort of advisory role.

686

:

Geri: And so I mean, clearly with the

teaching, there's a focus to the action

687

:

and the reforms of the curriculum

with the board or the research

688

:

committee and leadership there within

the department are there ways that

689

:

you've been able to have real impact?

690

:

Do you think, and what particularly

have you brought to it?

691

:

Susanne: Yeah, I think there's both,

both at the local and also at the

692

:

university level, quite Obviously,

some strategic discussions that are

693

:

happening that are more important

at certain times than others.

694

:

And, and I mean, when I started on the

AU board, it was right after there had

695

:

been a major sort of university reform

in Denmark, where a lot of these smaller

696

:

universities, University units had

been fusioned into the big university.

697

:

So we did spend a lot of energy finding

out how you would really integrate

698

:

those outlier places in the university

and make them real university units.

699

:

It was not something that only

happened in, on the board, but

700

:

we did spend time on it.

701

:

What else?

702

:

Yeah, so so I think yeah, there has been

these sort of strategic discussions that

703

:

Geri: We've made of the time

depending on what's happening

704

:

[Yeah] Do you see ways in which?

705

:

I don't know some of the same core values

that have underpinned your research or

706

:

some of the methodological approaches

that In your research have informed your

707

:

participation at these levels [Yeah],

708

:

Susanne: I, I mean, I do, I, I

found it important that I represent

709

:

the academic staff, right?

710

:

So I, I spent time discussing with

people and who those people were.

711

:

You know, I've always said I talk

to people who want to talk to me.

712

:

so I think that's kind

of one element of it.

713

:

And, uh, but, but I've also tried

to, you know, get to talk to the

714

:

people, say in the departments where

there were major changes happening

715

:

that we would have to relate to.

716

:

Now obviously a board is kind of an

arm's length kind of thing with the

717

:

management of the university, right?

718

:

So the board doesn't do management,

it's somebody else who does that.

719

:

so If I think about what I was trying

to do, it's been to articulate to the

720

:

board what were the sort of the challenges

on the floor in various ways, right?

721

:

So I don't think this is...

722

:

[A]

723

:

Geri: user centered perspective of the

724

:

Susanne: [university].

725

:

Yeah, yeah.

726

:

So, you know, what are

people really doing?

727

:

What's concerning people?

728

:

in their everyday life, whether

it's something with the teaching

729

:

and the resources or something.

730

:

I, I think that that has been important

to bring up because, you know, say the

731

:

head of the board, you know, he or she,

often talks mainly to management, right?

732

:

So this whole sort of voice from

the floor, I, I mean, if you are a,

733

:

If you are elected to represent the

academic staff, for instance, right,

734

:

your peers, then I think it's important

to, to, uh, in a way, find that voice

735

:

and have that voice on the board.

736

:

Uh, it doesn't necessarily mean

that you all the time have to

737

:

agree with, uh, whatever is said

in those various places, right?

738

:

But, to voice those concerns, I

think, has been important to me.

739

:

Geri: That's interesting, because

one of your early projects that you

740

:

worked on was Utopia, which was, you

know, really about the voice from

741

:

the floor of people in workplaces.

742

:

[Yeah, yeah].

743

:

So that's an interesting...

744

:

Susanne: Yes, no, no, I'm sure there is a

kind of a clear line there in a way, yeah.

745

:

Geri: so, you and I both share, an

upcoming transition at the end of next

746

:

week, in fact, where we both shift

into different sorts of roles and

747

:

our formal professorship role ends.

748

:

Does yours formally

749

:

Susanne: [end]?

750

:

No, it doesn't end.

751

:

It doesn't end.

752

:

But I will...

753

:

Reduce my time to like

25 percent of my time.

754

:

Yeah.

755

:

Yeah

756

:

Geri: I have no choice because we

have mandatory so called retirement

757

:

and How did you decide now is a good

time to just make that transition?

758

:

Susanne: Yes, I'm not

sure it is a good thing.

759

:

No, I think, well, well, I think this

is sort of a thing when, you know, I

760

:

remember thinking when I got the ERC

grant and it would be a five year thing

761

:

and there were these things like you

had to promise to do, like, I need to

762

:

make sure that all the data is deleted

a year after the project ends and so on.

763

:

You know, I was kind of thinking,

well, you know, that's actually.

764

:

probably about the time

when it's time to retire.

765

:

So, you know, for the last, I don't know,

five, seven years, I've kind of been

766

:

saying that, that there will probably be

a time once this project is over and the

767

:

final things have been managed where

I will retire or in some form or other.

768

:

Um, so I think.

769

:

There's that.

770

:

I mean, I, I want to say I, I find it.

771

:

I mean, I like working and so on, but I

think I'm buying myself flexibility and,

772

:

and it has kind of become more and more

a thing for me that most of my friends

773

:

and so on have retired so they can go

do things in the middle of the day.

774

:

We used to, I mean, we have this joke.

775

:

I have a group of old friends

Women I studied with and we called

776

:

it the girl dinners, right?

777

:

And we always called it that.

778

:

And now they were not girls anymore,

but we are, it's obviously also

779

:

not dinners because nowadays people

are struggling to drive when it's

780

:

dark and all sorts of things.

781

:

So now it's a lunch instead.

782

:

So, uh, so anyway, so I think, you

know, there's a lot of, practical

783

:

flexibility that I'm hoping.

784

:

To get out of this chance to spend more

time with my grandchildren and so on.

785

:

Not that I haven't done that I actually

have been but So I think things like that,

786

:

but when it comes to this business of

doing 25 percent I'm really not sure if

787

:

this is the right solution, honestly And

there's some things I want to continue

788

:

doing for another while Um, but I think

It also remains to be seen, like within

789

:

the next two or three years, how much I

want to continue working or whether it

790

:

makes sense at all or, uh, but right now

I still have a little bit of this sort

791

:

of, group management that, that my head

of department wants me to continue doing.

792

:

We are in a transition period.

793

:

We've hired a new

professor who is going to.

794

:

step up and do some of those things,

but I think it's also part of giving

795

:

him a chance to find out exactly what he

wants to do and how we, you know, how we

796

:

will organize the whole HCI area in the

department because we are also a little

797

:

bit diversifying and so we've hired.

798

:

quite a few and probably want to hire

more people in sort of information

799

:

visualization and more over towards

computer graphics and so on.

800

:

And you know, are they going to

be part of the HCI group or is

801

:

it going to be something else?

802

:

Or is there a different way

we can divide the groups?

803

:

I think is something that we need to

discuss and I'd be happy to, you know,

804

:

Play my part in that, but I'm not going

to be the group leader like in 10 years

805

:

from now, for sure, it's not the plan.

806

:

So I think it's a bit

sort of a practical thing.

807

:

I mean, I've also thought that,

it's nice to continue doing a bit

808

:

of writing and doing a few things.

809

:

So, I don't feel that, that, you know.

810

:

This is over and I'm

not looking back on it.

811

:

[It's not hard door close].

812

:

No, no, no.

813

:

And, uh, but I've had this, it's

interesting because I had a very busy June

814

:

and we had some exams and so on, but I

haven't been very busy since coming back

815

:

from, from the summer holidays and in a

way I think it's kind of a, I enjoy that.

816

:

So it's kind of a sign that this is

It's in a way the right, right moment

817

:

to, uh, to step down and I mean, I like

say waking up here in Vienna and not

818

:

having to think that I need to answer

like 30, 40 emails before like getting

819

:

out of my hotel room and, you know,

things like that, I think, but it, but

820

:

it's obviously also , a change, right?

821

:

[Yes.

822

:

Yeah, it is a change].

823

:

Once you've been so,

you've been used to being.

824

:

In a way so disciplined about a

lot of things you do in your life

825

:

just to make This whole process

happening in your everyday life.

826

:

I think it is it is different, right?

827

:

But I am looking forward to sitting in

you know, reading more books or whatever

828

:

[Going to the girls lunch] Yes, the

girls lunch, exactly, the lunch Yes

829

:

Geri: So that was interesting, just

hearing the threads of community

830

:

and family again in the things

that you're looking forward to,

831

:

the opportunities that it opens up.

832

:

And I don't know, good on you for that

sort of transition as well, because

833

:

there's an identity shift, isn't there?

834

:

Like when we, because it's such a

demanding career role, career role in

835

:

a way, especially as a professor or

leading a group and that, and there's.

836

:

Yeah, there are interesting

sort of identity transitions.

837

:

Susanne: Yes, yeah.

838

:

I definitely think, you know, I made

the choice over the years to be there

839

:

in the office quite much, right?

840

:

So I'm normally in the office.

841

:

And I was actually saying to, uh, to

Klimt, my colleague, one day when we

842

:

were just sitting and chatting over

lunch in the summer when there weren't

843

:

that many people around, you know.

844

:

I think I also just have to get

used to, you know, not feeling

845

:

guilty when everybody's at work

and I'm just home and it's not a

846

:

workday, you know, I don't know.

847

:

So, so I think there's, there are a few

things to, to be worked on with that.

848

:

Geri: Well, we can share experiences.

849

:

It is that transition and just being

curious about how it plays out.

850

:

[Yeah.

851

:

Yeah].

852

:

When you look back, coming to the end

of September, what are you proud of?

853

:

Like what, how do you, how do you see

854

:

Susanne: [your legacy]?

855

:

Yeah, that is a good question.

856

:

And then yeah, I'm, I don't know.

857

:

It's not something that, for

me takes up a lot of headspace.

858

:

I don't think a lot about it.

859

:

I think it's also just like maybe.

860

:

My personality is the way I am.

861

:

I had a long talk with the, I went to

my 50s school anniversary the other day.

862

:

And then, you know, there was this guy

and he said, you know, I'm very much

863

:

one sort of living in the moment and

looking at the future and not having

864

:

regrets and thoughts about the past.

865

:

And I think that's also

very much true for me.

866

:

I don't, I take sort of the chances

where they are, when they are there.

867

:

I've never had like a strategy

or thought that I knew I would...

868

:

[This grand, clear path].

869

:

So, I think, in that sense, I'm

also not very concerned about

870

:

my own legacy, but I think...

871

:

I mean, it is interesting, quite

obviously, it is interesting,

872

:

You know, in a time when obviously there

weren't that many women in computing

873

:

and all of that sense, all of that

stuff that I kind of made it to be sort

874

:

of an international recognized, what

have you, a person in this community.

875

:

And, I, you know.

876

:

I'm not sure, in a way, how that

happened, and I'm also not terribly

877

:

concerned about it, but I think, you

know, growing up it was not something

878

:

that, that, you know, I had any idea

this was even a possibility, right?

879

:

So it's not like that at all, but,

but obviously I'm proud of that, you

880

:

know, and, and, uh, I'm also, I, I

mean, I quite honestly also very much

881

:

appreciate the fact that in, We do at

Aarhus University, of course, we do have

882

:

a much, a wider HCI group than just

the people in computer science, right?

883

:

And I do have, in a way, the

mentor role for quite many people.

884

:

And, uh, I've always also, you

know, had this idea that we should

885

:

do things together and share and so

on and, and not sort of, push too

886

:

much towards these individual egos.

887

:

And so I am in a way of quite

proud that they think it's still

888

:

useful to come and talk to me

about all sorts of things, right?

889

:

It may sound a little bit banal, but I

think, you know, I treasure it when they

890

:

come and ask about these things, right?

891

:

And I also like that I have the

time to talk to people and that,

892

:

you know, my door is open and so on.

893

:

So I think even, even that as much as

sort of the international claim to fame

894

:

is actually something that matters.

895

:

Geri: Lovely.

896

:

I can just sort of see these themes

and threads and really richly held

897

:

values that just flow through.

898

:

Susanne: Yeah.

899

:

Yeah.

900

:

[So much].

901

:

Geri: Because again, like you talked

about together and sharing, just.

902

:

I

903

:

Susanne: [those sorts].

904

:

And I mean, I think, part of why we have

a strong HCI group, I mean, generally

905

:

at AU is because we've collaborated

and always had these various kinds of

906

:

activities together in various forms.

907

:

And then of course it has shifted over the

years what we found most interesting and

908

:

what has been most central and who, you

know, people have come and gone and so on.

909

:

But I think it's actually that there

is something to kind of feeling

910

:

at home in that wider group.

911

:

And, and we said so, so for a

while Kim Halskov and I had funding

912

:

from AU to, to do this thing.

913

:

So we had this participatory IT center and

we, we spent quite a bit of the money that

914

:

the funding we had from the university for

doing both internal and external seminars.

915

:

And I think a lot of people from

that time really appreciated

916

:

the fact that you could go.

917

:

Most often it was just a one day

thing with maybe a dinner at the end,

918

:

but, go share with the other people

in your busy everyday life, have a

919

:

day where you had a chance to talk

about research and your research,

920

:

but also that of others and so on.

921

:

And, and we try to continue that even

though we haven't had funding for it

922

:

for, I don't know, five years maybe.

923

:

And, and I know they want to.

924

:

They, they want to continue it.

925

:

Right.

926

:

I've handed it over and Kim has

too, to some younger colleagues.

927

:

Right.

928

:

But, but I think it's still sort of

the whole idea that we do that we

929

:

meet, say, once a year and we, or

twice a year, but one of them, often

930

:

with some external visitors and some

talk that it is very much appreciated.

931

:

Mm-hmm.

932

:

and, uh, And people show, and they

come and join even though they are

933

:

busy people in their various forms.

934

:

Geri: Yeah, yeah, that's lovely.

935

:

Yeah.

936

:

I'm curious about the fact that you

said last night when we were talking

937

:

about being a single parent a lot of

the time while you were working as well.

938

:

Yeah.

939

:

How did you make that work?

940

:

Susanne: How did I make that work?

941

:

It's, I think it's, I

don't know if I, I mean.

942

:

Yes, it's, it's a good question.

943

:

I guess in a way you can say you

don't have much of a choice, right?

944

:

So you, you make it work.

945

:

Um, I,

946

:

I, I wonder at times, what my son would,

would say about, you know, how, how he's

947

:

been brought along to different things.

948

:

Uh, but I think, um, Well, first of all,

I I won't say I mean, I actually thought

949

:

about when I came back to the hotel.

950

:

You know, I've had role models, right?

951

:

There were people like Joan Greenbaum,

who was a great colleague of mine, who

952

:

was sort of traveling the world with her

two youngest sons for quite some years.

953

:

So I think without having it very

deliberately as a sort of I kind

954

:

of think I saw that, you know, you

could be you could do it right.

955

:

And in times I also think that, how can

you say it, but that I've been fortunate

956

:

enough that I actually had the budget,

the financial situation that I could

957

:

bring my son along to various things.

958

:

So we traveled a lot when he was

younger and he has a, He likes hotels.

959

:

I wonder whether it's something that

came out of that or it's more like,

960

:

you know, he likes hotels, so it

wasn't too bad for him to travel.

961

:

Uh, we also, uh, where, where

we lived basically all the time,

962

:

we had some very good neighbors.

963

:

So it's also been the case I think,

that when my son was younger, that,

964

:

and he didn't mind much whether

I was actually there or not,

965

:

as long as he was sort of home.

966

:

But home could mean, like any of

his friends in the neighborhood.

967

:

So, he'd been, you know, put to bed in

many different houses, and playing and

968

:

having dinner with people and so on.

969

:

And, I think, It worked, right?

970

:

But it, of course, also meant, for

instance, that this business of

971

:

choosing to commute a couple of

hundred kilometers every day to for a

972

:

different job was not really attractive.

973

:

And thinking about moving to a news place

would also be more of a thing, right?

974

:

It wouldn't just involve me.

975

:

And I think, So it brought a

whole sort of social setup.

976

:

Um, I mean, we were also in, in

particular in sort of the younger

977

:

years before Jonas started school.

978

:

He was also spending a lot of time

with his father when I was traveling.

979

:

So that was also fine since.

980

:

That involved some travel as well.

981

:

He couldn't really do it when he

started school, so we had to find

982

:

other other ways of doing that.

983

:

So I think that, you know, the

whole support system, my parents

984

:

were there in the early years.

985

:

Um, they'd obviously helped a lot.

986

:

But I had support also.

987

:

I mean, my brother and

his family, we have.

988

:

Children the same age, and that's

also quite helpful at times, but I

989

:

don't know, but I sometimes think,

you know, I can see how difficult it

990

:

is for my, so my granddaughter, for

instance, in a way, maybe there's

991

:

something here with covid babies, right?

992

:

She's not very used to being sort of

handed over to other people, and I

993

:

don't think I had many thoughts about

that when Jonas was that age, and I

994

:

I'm not sure I want to think too much

about why that was, but I think it

995

:

was also a necessity for me, right?

996

:

Yeah.

997

:

He needed to be able to go sleep.

998

:

, like with my parents or

with my brother with it.

999

:

I mean, it was not, it

wasn't that sort of question.

:

01:04:22,239 --> 01:04:22,538

[Necessity].

:

01:04:22,538 --> 01:04:25,479

Geri: And the relationships that you had

with those people from the sounds of it,

:

01:04:25,479 --> 01:04:28,359

Susanne: if it had been totally

impossible for him, it probably

:

01:04:28,359 --> 01:04:29,409

also wouldn't have happened.

:

01:04:29,469 --> 01:04:29,709

Right?

:

01:04:29,714 --> 01:04:29,799

[Yeah].

:

01:04:30,279 --> 01:04:31,229

And, you don't know.

:

01:04:31,229 --> 01:04:34,379

It's difficult to say that,

that, I mean, he was a good.

:

01:04:35,464 --> 01:04:39,924

He was a good kid like that, that

he also, yeah, he liked himself.

:

01:04:40,374 --> 01:04:43,584

He sort of also took it very much.

:

01:04:43,604 --> 01:04:48,754

But I wonder at times, you know,

what he was really thinking about.

:

01:04:49,413 --> 01:04:49,663

Yeah.

:

01:04:52,354 --> 01:04:56,734

Geri: Um, I'm just thinking we

should probably just wrap up.

:

01:04:56,754 --> 01:04:56,964

Yeah.

:

01:04:57,534 --> 01:05:02,379

And Is there anything that

we haven't talked about that

:

01:05:02,629 --> 01:05:04,649

you would like to bring up?

:

01:05:06,509 --> 01:05:09,769

Susanne: Probably a lot of

things we haven't talked about.

:

01:05:10,538 --> 01:05:10,769

[There are lots of things we haven't].

:

01:05:10,769 --> 01:05:12,109

Nah, I think this is fine.

:

01:05:12,119 --> 01:05:14,399

If you've got more questions,

you know, feel free.

:

01:05:16,329 --> 01:05:21,919

Geri: I just do want to say thank you for

being a pioneer because, you know, back

:

01:05:21,919 --> 01:05:28,599

in the, 70s, 80s, that was really radical.

:

01:05:28,739 --> 01:05:32,679

Being a woman in computer science

and in particular what you've done

:

01:05:32,689 --> 01:05:34,889

for the HCI community over the years.

:

01:05:34,939 --> 01:05:37,989

And the work is just so influential.

:

01:05:38,139 --> 01:05:43,139

And, I know that we, not putting too

much store on metrics, but if we did

:

01:05:43,139 --> 01:05:44,609

look at your Google scholar profile.

:

01:05:45,204 --> 01:05:51,884

the indications of impact on people's

research is huge in the various

:

01:05:52,384 --> 01:05:55,744

publications and the concepts and

commitments that you've brought to

:

01:05:55,744 --> 01:06:01,094

the field around participation and

thinking about mediation and tools and

:

01:06:01,514 --> 01:06:05,734

ecologies of artifacts and all sorts

of different, different concepts.

:

01:06:05,784 --> 01:06:12,604

So, thank you for all of that work and

for just being such a good colleague and

:

01:06:13,144 --> 01:06:18,913

team member and wishing you all the best

in this transition and exploring the next

:

01:06:18,913 --> 01:06:19,384

Susanne: [phase]

:

01:06:19,564 --> 01:06:20,214

.

Likewise.

:

01:06:21,084 --> 01:06:21,114

[yes.

:

01:06:21,154 --> 01:06:22,254

And we can share stories].

:

01:06:22,264 --> 01:06:23,054

Yes, we can.

:

01:06:23,054 --> 01:06:25,284

Yeah.

:

01:06:25,284 --> 01:06:25,614

Yeah.

:

01:06:25,824 --> 01:06:26,904

[Thank you very much].

:

01:06:27,014 --> 01:06:27,524

Thank you.

:

01:06:32,711 --> 01:06:36,221

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript, and related

:

01:06:36,221 --> 01:06:39,361

links for this podcast on www.

:

01:06:39,421 --> 01:06:39,601

changingacademiclife.

:

01:06:41,301 --> 01:06:41,691

com.

:

01:06:42,351 --> 01:06:46,351

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

:

01:06:46,651 --> 01:06:48,391

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

:

01:06:48,391 --> 01:06:52,321

And you can follow Change

Acad Life on Twitter.

:

01:06:52,951 --> 01:06:56,021

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

:

01:06:56,021 --> 01:06:58,001

we can do academia differently.

:

01:06:58,441 --> 01:07:02,521

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

:

01:07:03,011 --> 01:07:07,091

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

:

01:07:07,111 --> 01:07:09,351

with your colleagues together.

:

01:07:09,411 --> 01:07:10,771

We can make change happen.

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