Frances Harder joins Joshua Maddux on this weeks episode of In The Bunker to talk about Working With Different Cultures In Business.

Our episode highlights:

• US trade and commerce has really good resources.
• SBA has good resources as well.
• It’s all about networking! Networking will open doors!

Personal Links:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-harder-4a604813/
• IG: https://www.instagram.com/harder.frances/
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/francesharder
• Author: https://www.amazon.com/Frances-J.-Harder/e/B002KPG6QU

Business Links:

• Website: https://fashionforprofit.com
• IG: https://www.instagram.com/fashionforprofit/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/fashionforprofit/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/fashion-for-profit/

Bio: Fashion For Profit – Consulting - Frances Harder Founder/CEO

Frances Harder authored and published a series of books dealing with starting a fashion business. Fashion for Profit (10th edition), Costing for Profit, Brand Building for Profit and Forms for Profit are industry focused texts used both by new companies and for further education programs. www.fashionforprofit.com.

Consultant to the United Nations assisting small businesses: Peru- Alpaca products, (women owned businesses), Nepal - Cashmere products and recently assisting apparel manufacturer in Egypt enter the U.S. market (2nd contract).

She consults and speaks internationally on product development, branding, merchandising, sustainability, costing, production and entering the US market.

Serves as an industry expert in legal disputes.

Organizes and presents seminars at Sourcing at Magic trade shows-(20 years)

Presents on a variety of topics and moderates at many international trade shows both within the US and Internationally.

Adjunct professor at Cal Poly Pomona and serves on the Dean’s advisory board.

In 1999 she foundered the FBI (Fashion Business Incorporated), an educational 501c3 organization, which provided vital business development, resources, and certified job training programs to both the US. Closed in 2017 to relaunch under Fashion for Profit Consulting platform as a for profit entity in 2018.

She studied Art and Fashion in the UK. Some of her professional accomplishments include having her name under license in Japan, designing for the Royal House of Brunei and designed two lines for Priscilla Presley that where sold on Home Shopping Club. Her last teaching position was for 9 years as a full time Associate Professor at Otis College of Art and Design (9 years), Fashion Institute of Design & Merchandising (8 years).

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Welcome back to.

Every business owner has faced challenges, and we love to share those stories.

Today.

We have Francis harder in the bunker with us.

Francis has been faced with the challenge of working with

different cultures in business.

If you've ever worked across cultures or with another business

in another country, you've probably experienced cultural differences.

These are always exciting, but can be challenging.

In business, she's over 30 plus years experience in

fashion and fashion consulting.

There's so much to unpack here and I'm super excited to jump in.

Let's welcome, Francis.

Thank you, Joshua.

As we jump in, let's get your sort of background.

Who are you?

How'd you get here?

What do you do in.

Well,

They probably take too long to really tell you the whole thing.

But basically I'm from the UK where I studied fashion design at an art college

and went into designing and also was lucky enough to be invited back to teach

at the university I graduated from.

So I've always had.

Juul teaching and designing and using my design eyes as well.

And realize that design is not enough unless you don't, unless

you understand the business side.

So I geared myself when I was teaching to Starting a class on the

business side of the fashion industry, how to start your own business.

And that led me to write my book and it also led me to start my fashion business

incorporated at the FBI and 1999.

And we were in business and we would help new startup companies as a nonprofit.

And that was another exciting experience for me running a nonprofit.

Meeting people who were willing to give a lot.

And we had an amazing 20 years and met some incredible people

and opened up doors for me.

And honestly, one of the biggest, probably the biggest pluses that

I pass on to many students and younger people is you got to network.

Networking is key.

To moving on to the next door that opens.

And so the more networking you can do the better.

So when I started the FBI, I was invited to speak at different trade shows

from that the people in the audiences like magic international is huge.

It's the biggest trade show for apparel.

And so in the audience, you don't know who's going to be there, but there were

people who invited me to go to Germany to find out what the Germans are doing

for sustainability, invited to France to see what the French were doing.

To do with protecting their brands, invited to Australia, to tore Australia,

talking about how to start the, your own business and enter the America market.

I was invited by China a few times and been over there to first of

all, as a tour from Shanghai, beat Beijing and other places to

understand the industries over there.

And then I'd been invited back a few times.

And then of course, United nations.

They contacted me and I'm working.

My first one was in parole working with the.

Making oh, they were doing their own products and it was really an interesting,

I really enjoyed that in Peru.

The people were fantastic.

And after Peru I went to into Nepal, helping them with their

cashmere products and the latest one is two contracts with Egypt.

And one of the things also that's come out of this is I've been recognized

as an expert in the industry.

So I do quite a lot of expert witness work and we've had some

very interesting cases with that.

So it's quite a challenge and quite interesting, as I always say, I used

to do a lot of sports Joshua, and even now when I'm driving home, Did we

win this one or did we lose this one?

Sometimes, it's just sometimes you lose and you have to move

on and if you win, that's good.

And maybe you go on to the next game.

Try to take it philosophically rather than getting too upset.

That's really good.

On the win lose aspect.

The one thing for me is even if a business deal doesn't work out or

whatever it is, there's still elements.

Even if you lose that, there's still elements that you can take home as

nuggets that you can learn from.

So although you may have not got that project or whatever, that loss looked

like there's still elements to learn from.

And I encourage the business owners all the time to, to still look at what

can you learn from that situation?

So a little bit of world travel just a tiny but some incredible stuff.

Working with different countries, different, all different types

of companies that are looking to enter the U S market.

And I imagine that, that has never been faced with any type of challenge.

Whether that's language bear here or.

Just time zone differences, there's so many elements there and I know, before we

hit record, I know one of the things that you and I were discussing was cultural

differences and cultural expectations a little bit what, what does that look like?

Obviously.

We want to be respectful of cultures and, different cultures work differently.

I know America is very big on focusing on work and your work is

what defines you where other countries you're defined by your family and

your hobbies more your work just happens to be how you make a living.

And I think that's something that culturally different

countries, value differently.

So not necessarily something that we're looking to disrespect in culture

specifically, but talk about the differences and the expectations there.

Yes.

It's not.

Yeah, it's observations that you learn really, and it's not a negative, it's

just that dealing with these different cultures is a learning experience.

It has been for me.

And I think it probably would be the same for you.

And when people have like dealing with say the Egyptians and you talk

to somebody who's in the industry and you'll pass on your experience

and they'll say exactly why.

Experience iPad.

They have also had the same experience and we, you and I were talking about before.

Experience, maybe working with the Chinese has been exactly what your

experience was like ditto of mine.

And so it's very interesting to work with different cultures.

And I lived in Germany for six years, so I got to, and I ended up marrying one.

So I learnt the German culture.

You think that the Europeans would be similar, but they're not.

So living in Germany yeah.

I loved it dearly.

And but there were definite cultural differences.

So what working with the cultural differences is interesting challenging.

And you hope that.

What are they like particularly now working with the United nations with

Egypt, I was hired as a consultant to assist them to understand how

to enter the American market.

What do they need to do?

How do they prepare it?

Everything from the websites or that, that is, this is who you are at.

With a website.

So what is the first person going to do when they're looking at your company,

they're going to go to your website.

So when you're dealing with say Egypt, it's very male dominated.

And so you open up the website, you've got a big, strong building up there, right?

What can you scroll down?

That's a row of men in suits and a tie.

And so you say, what are they selling here?

They're selling women's clothing.

Isn't that interesting?

You know how we said to them, you need to change this website.

People need to know, identify immediately what it is you're doing, and you

need to change that out regularly.

So they want to go back, these are the things and same thing

in Nepal that was rather a male.

Working with the Kashmir producers and they have a big issue because

the west changed pashmina is the highest quality cashmere you can get.

And so it got he got messed up by the Americans or the west.

And suddenly I don't years ago, you're probably too young, but it was like 20

years ago, there were selling pashmina is on the corner and they were really Rae on,

for $10 and it's destroyed their brand.

So they ha we had to rebrand pashmina Kashmir.

And one of the scientists came up with planting DNA.

Fibers of the goat.

And so that when it was spun and then knitted or woven into something that DNA

was there all the way through the washing.

So it was an amazing way of this is pure pashmina cashmere,

essentially more or less like a serial number

on a car VIN number on a card.

Yeah, that was pretty neat.

And then with the Peru the Peruvians, they were losing a lot of sustainability.

I was very impressed with that.

I'm not sure if you've been there, we went to Lima and then Arab speaker, fantastic.

The people were absolutely beautiful.

I want to go back and then went up too late to, to khaki, which is like

14,000 square feet, 20, sorry, 14,000 feet high and giving a lecture.

To a group of women, men who were doing their alpaca.

And so they were sitting there with translators on I'm giving us a lecture and

I'm just looking around, I'm going to me.

It was like I'm on 40,000 feet high and from bloody

Manchester, how did I get here?

So that was an out of body experience, but a great experience, all the same.

That's crazy.

I know.

We were discussing the aspect of sort of the American lifestyle, the American work

ethic and looking at, other countries.

I know my brother spent some time in Jordan on a trip there and on the

drive from the airport to where they were staying his friend's girlfriend

or fiance or whoever was He said he felt like he was in terrible.

He's like I've first time I've ever met this person.

And she's oh, so like, you know, your family, blah, blah, blah,

like wanted nothing to do with, oh, what do you do for a job?

Didn't care about that.

But like all these different details, they'd go sit in a coffee shop.

And some guy walks up and sits down at their table and they just start

chatting and an hour and a half goes by and the guy gets up and leaves.

And my brother's oh do you guys know him from here, do you know from

there, do you know him from work?

And they're like, no, we've never met the guy before and it's they

have this in-depth hour and a half long conversation, but that's how the

culture in Jordan and other countries, that's how the culture is where.

In the U S were, I think part of it is we're short, we're guarded a little bit.

And there's also this status symbol a little bit as well, and

it's hard for businesses who may.

I don't understand that don't experience that to transition, to understanding

what the American culture is when they're entering the market here in the U S I know

I had a professor who in college, he said that he had traveled and he taught at a

few other schools and around the world.

And he said there was one college he showed up to and his class started.

2:00 PM.

So he showed up there at 1 45 to, set up and two o'clock comes around 2 15,

2 30, and the first student walks in the door and he's you are a half-hour.

And they're like, oh yeah, no you have two classes a day here.

You have a morning class and an afternoon class.

And typically the afternoon class starts anywhere from a half hour to an hour.

After what it says on the schedule, where was this?

It was an, I cannot remember what country it was.

But it was another country.

And he was just like, what on earth?

And they're like, that's just how the culture is.

And it's anything is taken with a grain of salt when it comes to timing.

Time is a rough suggestion of it starts at two.

Which is just it's crazy.

We used to lock the door when I was teaching her OTAs.

If you were late 10 minutes, we'd lock the door or we feed them as well.

If you were late, you had three lanes.

Three tardies is equals actually a fail you years ago when I was teaching that

you had three lates, you got failed.

Very strict on time in America.

I agree.

And I think England is the same or Europe as well.

And I look at that from an employer's perspective.

Employers in the U S if you had an employee show, Anywhere from 15 minutes

to an hour, late on a regular basis.

And so someone who maybe is coming from a different culture, like

understanding that is a huge element, understanding how important it is

to be on time to be, a part of that.

Yeah.

I think one of the, another example is say working with Italy, right?

Love, Italy, love the food, love the people love going there.

But they never ship on time.

So we always say, if you're buying from Italy, allow yourself a window of

time because they're always shipping.

And so which in this industry it's really frustrating.

And I remember talking to an Italian friend of mine, I was saying, the

Americans, as I said to you earlier on, what you do in the American

businesses, you do what you say, you're going to do one sentence.

That's all it is.

And if you don't, you need to be transparent and let people,

some of obviously things happen.

So maybe the silt from Italy couldn't get through to you in

time because they had an issue.

You got to let them know.

And I was talking to the Solando and he said, yeah, but when will, we always

ship late and it's okay, we do know you should late, but then they're

losing huge amounts of business by just constantly not performing on time.

Because as in America, if you're going to ship in this

window, you have to get it in.

Then otherwise you're going to cancel orders.

One, especially with the.

The element and the rise of just in time delivery.

I look at how many right now is a great example.

We're where the end of 2020 and our port in Los Angeles has 50 plus ships

sitting, waiting we're backed up and stores are late on deliveries.

And so just in time delivery is a great concept when every piece of the

puzzle works flawlessly, but heaven forbid you get a backup of a port.

You get, whether that causes issues, you get a shipping delay

for whatever reason that is.

And sometimes that doesn't need to be some catastrophic 30 day delay.

Sometimes that can be 72 hours that, 72 hour delay can be a huge difference in

whether a product is going to get sold.

At the right time or not, you drop a Christmas decor on December 30th.

Now it's on the clearance.

Yeah, I

know with I lived near the port and I saw it yesterday.

There were 1880 container boats outside, out waiting to get in and

the traffic just getting in and out, it was just, and there were trucks

from Maine trucks, from Tennessee trucks when you see them on the road,

trying to get on the road and get out.

And this is a, this is an interesting topic because.

What everybody in our industry and probably other industries too, is the

we're looking for domestic manufacturing.

We're trying to bring it back, not only for the sustainable access,

because it's going to be sustainable.

You're saving all that fuel.

But you're also, as you say, on demand, we're looking for on demand fast or

whether you go near shoring, which is Mexico and south of the border, where.

Chuck the goods in.

So there is a huge change, but unfortunately, and this is something that

the U S needs to address which Biden is where the infrastructure money is that

we've not invested in our infrastructure.

So you got your one time, the fashion industry in LA was the largest industry.

Within with the clothing industry within America, very vibrant, huge,

you've got old buildings downtown, Joshua, you can't even get a truck

down the alley in the back old elevators, wouldn't floss, a Creek.

You could see the floors below.

We have to, if we want to bring domestic manufacturing back in all fields, we

have to invest in, in our own infrastru.

Think about you can't even get a train to, from here to Vegas, you could

get fast trains from London to Paris, why can't we get more efficient?

I know we're criticizing our foreign partners, but in, in a way, a lot of our

issues need to be addressed domestically.

We need to start investing in our own infrastructure.

One.

It's funny to me, how we talk about.

Oh, XYZ culture is a little bit more laxed and they're a little bit more flexible

on timeframes, but that's the culture that figured out public transportation.

They figured out, infrastructure, they figured out all this stuff.

And then we're over here saying deadlines, but we can't figure it out.

I live.

In an area where every time the wind blows the wrong direction, more than 30

miles an hour, they shut my power off.

I got a notice last night from Edison saying, happy Thanksgiving, we might

shut your power off type thing.

It's crazy.

And

so this is the over, these are the Overland power lines.

Nobody in Europe has Overland power lines.

They're all under.

Yeah we haven't got to that.

So where you're, threatened by fires constantly.

Yeah,

it's crazy.

Yeah, it is.

And it's one of those elements where we'll figure it out eventually, we'll get there.

And I think the element that you're talking about the shore or about, bringing

manufacturing back to the U S I think that's very interesting and I think.

I also look at it from there's a company that's developing what

they're calling micro farms.

And so they're using shipping containers.

They're using a 40 foot shipping container and they're putting grow lights in it and

they can grow a rugala and lettuce and spinach and radishes and all this stuff.

Radishes need eight inches to grow.

That's it.

And then they can have a grow light.

If you put them out in the middle of a farm, All they're

using is eight inches of space.

But if you stack them vertically inside of a shipping container, a 40

foot shipping container, it can be the equivalent of a one acre farm.

And so how can they, yup.

So they put grow lights and stuff in 'em and stuff.

Basically the same with the, marijuana farms that are using indoors.

And so there's restaurants now that have realized that it's actually

not asleep cheaper, but more.

Economical from an aspect of not having to go figure out where they're getting

the widest from today, they can actually drop a 40 foot shipping container in

their parking lot and then grow all their own, produce out their back door.

And so they need you.

So literally they'll the salad that's sitting on your plate at dinner was picked

two hours ago, which is so much fresher.

It's not having to travel.

Daisy trucks raid all that mess.

And there's elements like that with, not only consumable products in, in food

industry, but there's also, fashion.

There's so much elements with that.

If you're not trucking it halfway across the world, like you said, it's

a lot less fuel and stuff that's using.

I know there's a lot of ground that we've covered with today's conversation.

And what would be your advice to someone who is facing a similar

challenge of really working with different cultures and business?

I'd say, do a little research and also do test orders

with people and see how it works.

But there again, if you're trying to come to some agreement with an offshore

company I, of course the Americans are very, we're all, we have pieces of people

with contracts and you have to sign this.

And I was working actually years ago.

What was it?

I had a Japanese company contact me when I was teaching to ask if I do a line

of clothing for their Japanese brand.

So I was designing under my name for them.

Living here, I thought we need a contract.

So I get my contract together and I gave it to the Japanese contacts I was working

with and he read through it and looked at it and nodded, and he just shook my hand.

He never signed.

But honestly, Joshua, I never had a problem.

They paid me every month on a retainer, never any issue.

And but when the yen went down the toilet, things crumbled a little bit,

but working with them was just such smooth sailing, no issues at all now.

Which, Talking about working with say China.

They I've been talking to university over there for the last two years.

They want to use my book and me to teach it in modules

and I've come up with a plan.

I've shown the plan.

I was wherever he goes, oh, you got to protect your business.

And so your IP.

So I spent nearly $10,000 on registering it in China and getting it.

Legal, so nobody can knock it off.

And this conversations will come, every three months I get another

email and I've just come to the point where I just can't do anymore.

This, I've lost interest because it seems to be I'm spinning

wheels and it's not going anyway.

So whether anything will come of it, I don't know.

But Joshua you've had some experiences too, right.

Yeah, we have, we had our talking, you and I were talking about

before, there was a company who approached us for a fairly high end product in

China and it was a similar element.

It was handfuls of conversations.

And I think sometimes, and this isn't necessarily even a culture thing.

I think there's some times where businesses come up with amazing

ideas and they can see that.

The end outcome.

They can see that this product makes them $20 million a year, but they realize

that getting from point a to point Z is going to take a lot of work and they are

almost looking for someone to come in and take on a little bit more of that.

And that's fine if they're providing.

Maybe a revenue share but sometimes just relying on a contractor to, to come in and

just take over everything is a little hard

since she didn't have any money coming in

from it.

No.

Yeah, exactly.

And the other thing you mentioned with contracts, across different countries,

contracts, But the biggest thing you want to think about is what is

the cost to enforce said, contract.

If you have a contract with a company overseas in another country, you

need an attorney who understands that country's laws and who can navigate

the legal system, both here and there.

And.

If your contract value is less than what it's going to cost to have your attorney

fly there and spend a week or so then you there's no real, almost, not even

a reason to have a contract other than just a here's the understanding sort

of a letter of understanding more just.

And make sure everybody's on the same page of this is the expectations.

And that's really where I would say, one of you want to think of.

Yeah.

One, one thing I have found though, that is within American system

is the U S trade and commerce.

They have some really great services to help any American company who's

thinking of going internationally.

I, I.

Part of the international group from the U S trade and commerce,

and now I'm connected to them.

I know that they have some really good anybody thinking about going abroad either

to manufacture or to sell, definitely get in touch with the U S trade and commerce.

They have some really good help.

And they, of course they know who to contact in these particular countries

who can help you in each country.

The American embassy is there and they can certainly give you some least

some advice as to how to handle it.

Yeah.

There's a lot of different resources out there.

Whether it's something like us trade and commerce or, the

SBA has some great resources.

Know, there's maybe it's there may be a paid resource through

the SBA, but they may be able to point you in the right direction.

And in reality, paying someone who has gone through this a hundred

times before, for an hour of their time, just Hey, what are the big

hiccups and issues that I can expect?

Elements like you just talked about with, oh, if you deal with.

This culture or this country, they typically are always late on shipping.

And so great.

If we're expecting it to be here on February 1st, then maybe we

should make sure we tell them two weeks earlier, extending and

just pad the time accordingly.

And always build in those little, extra margins as needed.

And I know so many businesses saw that there's a company that I've been

following that makes up, makes a product.

And they had finally gotten all their manufacturing stuff lined up right

before COVID hit and then COVID hit.

And now they've gone back to the manufacturer and the manufacturers

said, there's no way we can make your product for what we quoted you before.

It's going to be.

30% more.

And so they have all these pre-orders for product that now

they're going to be losing money on.

And so they're like, we either need to cancel the pre-orders or sorry,

guys, we gotta charge you extra.

And so they're like, that's your option and it's hard, there's

always unexpected elements.

And, as business owners, the biggest thing that you can do is connect with

other business owners and strategize, seek counseling, or seek someone who

maybe has been there before or been a step ahead of you and learn from.

That's what you've said about with the SBA.

I know when I was teaching when we had the fashion business incorporated, we

had lots of classes and we did a lot of shelf short-term certified training.

And we had consultants who were also consultants for the SBA.

So as you say, you can get a lot of free information from SBA and you can hire a

consultant who, you know, not for a lot, who's from the industry to help you.

So even if.

Assisting you with your business plan and things like that, so that you can get a

lot of good help from them, kudos to them.

There really are good.

Yeah.

There's a lot of good stuff there.

Awesome.

Is there any sort of nuggets of advice to leave us with as we wrap up our time,

I only bought, I always say to students is

It's all about networking.

Really, my journey has been about how I got here, going

to Germany, how I got here.

And what I've done here is been about just different doors opening.

And get out there, work hard and doors will open for you.

If you're starting your own business, particularly in the apparel

industry, it's a good time to start.

It's surprising.

And it early enough, because as you talked about on demand,

you can do smaller quantities.

The big companies are looking for thousands of orders, thousands of units.

The other sad issue is I know a factory downtown who can't find

SOAs and it's the same, knowing if find workers in the restaurant.

So he can't find chef SOAs and.

talking quite a lot of talk about retraining, certifying even if it's

refugees coming in, give them short-term training and get them to sell a bit, SOAs

and then give them an upward mobility.

I don't think you need to go to a two year four year college.

You can learn on the job a little bit like apprenticeship.

So there's a lot of good changes and I think it's it's a good

time to start a business.

I like the aspect of, networking role, open doors.

I totally agree.

Networking is always a great way to connect with businesses and business

owners and other people in your industry.

Yeah, and being creative while hiring that's a whole nother topic in itself.

But creativity right now is a huge thing.

Creativity business is always a huge thing.

I appreciate you coming on and your time today we will have in the show

notes we'll have your LinkedIn, your Twitter, your Amazon author page

your website, fashion for profit.com and then the business information,

Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, all that stuff along with your bio that's like.

Eight or nine links in total.

But where is the number one spot?

If someone wants to reach out and connect with you, what's the number

one spot for them to do that?

LinkedIn's pretty good.

I have a good connection on LinkedIn.

So if anybody wants to connect with me, they can go to LinkedIn.

That's probably the best or through my website either way.

Awesome.

Thank you, Joshua for giving me the opportunity.

Appreciate you having you on the show today.

Thank you.

Okay.

See you again.

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