Her Empowered Divorce Episode 105

COERCIVE CONTROL AND ITS IMPACT ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN.EP 105 

HOST: Beverly Price, Divorce & Empowerment Coach 

GUEST: Dr. Christine Marie Cocchiola, Coercive Control Advocate, Educator, Researcher, and head of Survivor Coercive Control Consulting, LLC 

SUMMARY: 

Coercive control is a form of domestic abuse that exerts power and control over victims, leaving lasting scars, especially on women and children who are the most vulnerable. This insidious pattern of behavior involves manipulation, isolation, intimidation, and surveillance, where abusers seek to dominate every aspect of their victims' lives. For women, this can lead to a profound erosion of self-esteem and independence, trapping them in a cycle of fear and dependency. Children who experience or witness coercive control within their homes can suffer from emotional trauma, which can affect their well-being and development. In this episode of Her Empowered Divorce, your Host, Beverly Price, talks to  Dr. Christine Marie Cocchiola, Coercive Control Advocate, Educator, Researcher, survivor, founder, and CEO of Coercive Control Consulting, LLC. Together, they discuss what Coercive Control is, how it manifests in real life, and its impact on women and children.

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• What is Coercive Control? Coercive Control is harm inflicted on all humanity; it’s all about exalting power over a person, and the most vulnerable are women and children. 
• Coercive Control in a relationship encompasses many things, including psychological abuse, legal abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, use of the children, and separation abuse. 
• Are there characteristics of an abuser that we could look out for? Yes, definitely! Alarming love, excess check-in talks and texts, using your vulnerabilities, lack of true authentic relationships, and not liking your friends. 
• Whether you stay or leave an abusive partner, there is no shame in it, but when you stay, you should always keep “a clarity list” with you to remind you of the pattern of behaviors so that whenever you are in doubt, you don’t diminish your pain. 

NOTABLE QUOTES:

• Just like all of us fall into line very quickly when we think someone has power over us, people in intimate relationships also fall into line and follow what they are expected to do. (Marie) 
• The number one indicator of being in a relationship that is ‘Coercive controlling’ is when someone uses your vulnerability against you. (Marie) 
• All domestic abuse is Coercive Control; however, when someone exerts power and control physically, this is the most violent and deadly form because when you leave, the person can see it as abandonment, and they have to get revenge. (Marie)
• Victims and survivors are the strongest people there are. (Marie)
• If someone is trying to exert power and control over you, they are not healthy, and if they are doing that to you, they are most certainly doing it to your children. (Marie)
• We all need to heal, and we need a trauma-informed therapist to support us, but if they are not informed about Coercive control, they can diminish victims' experience, which is problematic, especially for children. (Marie)

ABOUT OUR GUEST: 

Dr. Christine Marie Cocchiola, DSW, LCSW, a college professor teaching social work for the last 20 years, has been a social justice advocate since the age of 19, volunteering for a local domestic violence/sexual assault agency. She is a Founding Member of the International Coercive Control Conference and a Board Member of the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, actively supporting codifying coercive control via written policy briefs. 

Dr. Cocchiola understands the impact that coercive control has on children through her own clinical expertise as a trauma-trained therapist, a researcher, and a protective mother. She has created programming to educate protective parents, including The Protective Parenting Program, which offers support for parents who have children who have been coercively controlled. Additionally, she offers training for attorneys, court professionals, and other allies seeking to support these vulnerable populations.

FOLLOW OUR GUEST: 

Dr. Christine Marie Cocchiola

Website: http://wwwiknowyourheart.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-christine-marie-cocchiola-443a58204/

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Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/dr.cocchiola.coercivecontrol/?_rdc=1&_rdr

YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@DrCocchiola

Email: christine@drcocchiola.com

ABOUT YOUR HOST:

Beverly Price is the empowering divorce coach who guides women on their journey before, during, and after divorce to eliminate pain, overwhelm, sadness, and anger and create more knowledge, skill, and peace that she experienced herself. In her 30 years of divorce coaching experience she has help thousands of women move through divorce, fully prepared with skills that enhance the results of their divorce process.

Remember, divorce doesn’t have to be a death sentence. With the right support and guidance, you can move through the process with knowledge, skills, and confidence. If you’d like to schedule a complimentary private consultation, reach out to Beverly at: 

https://Beverly-Price.as.me/ConsultationCall

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🌟 Special Highlight: 

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Hi, beautiful. I'm so glad you're here today. We've got another installment of our domestic violence series. And there's nothing more important than understanding domestic abuse than power and control as the motivator to the abuser. And because of that, my guest today is an expert, Dr. Christine Marie Cocchiola, coercive control advocate, educator, researcher.

and survivor of coercive control. She's also head of survivor coercive control consulting. Obviously, what she's gonna talk to us today about is coercive control. I hope she educates us, tells us what it is and what the impacts are, and I'm sure she's gonna do that. Christine is a college professor teaching social work for the last 20 years.

She understands the impact that coercive control has on children through her own clinical experience as a trauma-trained therapist, a researcher, and a protective mother. She's created program to educate parents, including the Protective Parenting Program. She's going to talk to us today, not only about the effects of coercive control on women, but also their children.

Christine, thank you so much for being my guest today. I can't wait to hear what you have to say.

Oh, thank you for having me here, Beverly, and thank you so much for forming the coalition that we have, which is quite remarkable during this domestic abuse awareness month. So again, thank you so much. I appreciate being here. Yeah, if you want, I'll dive right in. So I had a nice conversation this past week. Yes, I just had a nice conversation this past week with Dr. Evan Stark.

Go right for it. Tell us, educate us.

He propelled the term course of control. It was certainly created in the 1950s. The word coercion certainly was by bitermen during the Korean War. This idea that people could be created or persuaded to actually believe a false narrative. And so we saw this with prisoners of war where we can break people down and get them to eventually fall in line with an abuser.

Wow.

And that happens in the home all of the time. That's what we know about coercion and control. So Susan Schechter came up with the term in the 1970s, coercive control. Dr. Evan Stark had some of our first, basically our first domestic abuse shelter right in New Haven, Connecticut, where women would come to him and they would say the worst part wasn't the physical violence. It was the power over that someone was using to intimidate them, manipulate them, isolate them.

and harm them and their children in various ways. So it's very nuanced.

I never really thought about the comparison to prisoners of war with domestic abuse scores of control. That might help people get another understanding of it. I think that's incredibly insightful.

Yes.

Sure. So Dr. Evan Stark calls it a liberty crime. He says we're in the business of emancipation because when people are living in these situations they are trapped. It's an entrapment and the idea is to keep diminishing someone's autonomy so much so that they actually can't see clearly what's happening to them. And that's what coercive controllers do. So I like to think of coercive

for all harms on humanity. I know this sounds vast, but if we look at it from a social work perspective, this macro view of the world, and we think about who are people who have in some ways harmed people of color? What is racism? What is ableism? What is sexism? It's all about exerting power over a person or a group of people. And it comes from people.

who want to exert this power over others. And so really, it's a harm inflicted on all of humanity. And certainly our most vulnerable are women and children, and certainly people of color, and people who are living in marginalized societies. And so I think it's important for people to understand that A, this is the similar, I mean, if we look at Biderman's coercion chart, it's very similar to the way that occurs in intimate terrorism in the home.

But also beyond that is that this is like groups of people who are exerting power over others. Think about no matter how you feel, but think about the recent turning over of Roe v. Wade. Like why are there people in positions of power that were able to shift an entire like belief system in certain states that actually marginalizes who? Woman. I mean, that's who it marginalizes. So.

Mm hmm. Right.

So it's really about looking at this through a much wider lens and understanding that just like all of us fall into line very quickly when we think someone has power over us, that people in intimate relationships do fall into line. They do follow what they are expected to do. And the reason why is not because they're dumb or because they're.

lacking in self-worth. I mean those things could certainly be a part of it or because they're codependents certainly that could be a part of it but it's because they've been stripped intentionally of their agency, their ability to really see clearly what's happening to them.

Maybe another example that people could relate to in contrast is a very controlling boss at work. Could do the same thing to you. And then if you take it a step further, that person in your life that you expect as your intimate partner to be the one that is your safe harbor, is the person you can depend on, turns out to be exactly the opposite.

Correct, I think that's a really great example of how this happens outside of our homes too. It could happen with a roommate, a friend, it could be a parent, it can be a partner, it can be a boss, right? And so it happens in a variety of circumstances, but of course, where is the most shame? The most shame is in the house, when this is happening in your family system. And in that, I think what you point out is that these are people who...

Right.

Right.

I always say like for me, the number one indicator of being in a relationship that's coercibly controlling is when someone has used a vulnerability against you. The moment that someone has used, yeah, the moment that someone has used something that really was a moment of tenderness and vulnerability that you shared with them. So maybe you shared with them that you were harmed in some way as a child and then they keep bringing that up every time they're upset with you.

Can you give me some examples?

There's a pattern of using that vulnerability against you. Well, maybe you wouldn't cry so much if this didn't happen to you in your childhood. Or maybe what happened to you in your childhood was really your fault. Maybe you did that. This is what abusers do is they use the thing that we, the most vulnerable thing that we have, whether it's that we're sensitive or that we love country music or that maybe we wish we were a better cook.

Oh, I see.

Hehehe

or it doesn't, so it's so nuanced, right? It's not like, if you told a girlfriend that your partner made fun of your cooking, they might say, oh, my partner does that sometimes too. But what your girlfriend doesn't realize is if there's a pattern of this diminishing you, whether it's your music, your cooking, how you clean the house, or that you clean too much, or that...

Mm-hmm.

you know, that you don't put the dish, you always leave the refrigerator door open by accident. Whatever it is, it can be slight, but the idea is to create a diminishment in you.

If they say to you, you can't leave because nobody will ever want you, or you can't leave because you couldn't make it on your own, are those forms of coercive statements?

Absolutely, so I would say that coercive control again encompasses so many things but if we were to look at psychological abuse as one of the under the umbrella of coercive control and Then there's legal abuse financial abuse sexual abuse and use of the children They all and post separation abuse is right along in there post separation abuse is just a further Infliction of coercive control and it's often intensified. We know that in 90% of the cases

the post-separation, the course of control intensifies. So psychological abuse though is that diminishing, right? That gaslighting, that manipulation, that push and pull on the brain. We know the brain actually like wants to believe that you're safe in this relationship. So the person might tell you that, you know, they love you so much, you're their soulmate, but then when they think you're leaving, they might say you'll never amount to anything.

Right.

or everyone will see you for who you really are, or your children will never talk to you, you will lose everything. But then in that, and I can tell this from personal experience, then there is this, we'll go to therapy. And you know that if you leave me, you'll devastate me, that I don't know how I'll go on without you. And so there is that push and pull, push and pull. And victims and survivors very often

have a rate very high in the big five personality test as being highly agreeable and conscientious. And in that, they are trying so hard to fix something that's broken beyond repair. And so they might go back. This is why we know victims and survivors go back up to seven attempts. They have seven attempts before they actually leave for good. Because there is this intermittent reinforcement. And anybody who says, that's BS, we know in the brain.

Right.

It's actually reality. It is like literally the receptors in the brain want to believe there is some good shred of this relationship to hold on to.

Is there, is a part of this being in love with the idea of who someone could be rather than they are?

I think that's a really good way to put it. Absolutely. So when we meet the person, do they show up? They don't have signs that say I'm an abuser. Right? I mean, they have signs that they're so madly in love with us, that they are wonderful human beings. They are the best. I say they get Academy Awards all the time. They are really good actors. They're performative. And so we don't see the really, for lack of a better word, the dark side of them.

Right

Mm-hmm.

until we've actually violated them in some way. And then when they realize, ooh, this person's on to me, I'm gonna have to tighten the grip a little more, then certainly. So are we in love with who they were or who we thought they were? Maybe, sure. We also are not the type of, we're loyal to a fault.

Yes, I can see that. I can see that. What

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we stay to try to keep trying, right? We can fix this. Let me try to fix this. I'm going to fix this.

Are there any characteristics of an abuser that people could be on the lookout for?

Sure, so I would say that, and I actually have a 20 minute free video on my website, Coercive Control Consulting or Iknowyourheart.com because only protective mothers know their children, their children's hearts or protective parents know their children's hearts well. But it's where is your line, love is not control and it's 20 minutes and it actually just kind of exposes what these are. It's like...

It's love bombing. We use that word a lot, but really it's someone who's madly in love with us right away, head over heels. And someone who really talks about ways that they care about us that seem like it's love, but it's actually control. So do you really have to go out with your girlfriend again this weekend? You went out two weeks ago with her, and I miss you. I miss you, right? Versus.

Yeah.

Oh, you know, I'll see you when you get home. Or it's the person who's constantly texting and checking in on you, checking where you are, or just saying, hey, I miss you, and so much that it feels like it might be love, but it's really the attempt of the person to try to control us, right? It's, again, using vulnerabilities. And I think it's really important for listeners to think about, does this person that's in your life have...

checking where you are.

have true, authentic, long-term relationships with people in their life. Because most of these people cannot retain long-term relationships with healthy individuals, I should say. So they might have a relationship with maybe their mother, who is unhealthy, or their brother, who they have an unhealthy dynamic with. But these are people who are so afraid.

Right.

of others figuring out who they are, that they don't retain long-term relationships with certain people in their life. And that's a pretty big red flag. And I would say if this person doesn't like your friends or is telling you that, you know, oh, why are you going to school? This is another, or why do you have to take that new job? You know, why do you need to do that? It's like not actually, where's your independence?

Mmm.

Where's your ability to be who you are as a human being first and another person supporting that versus diminishing that.

This seems like it's so much more insidious than physical abuse and so much harder to pick up on.

I would agree. I think that what we, well, I would say this. So all abuse, all domestic abuse is coercive control. That's how I see it. Every single, there is no separation of it. However, when someone is exerting power and control over us, it doesn't have to be physical, but when it is physical, that's when it's the most violent and deadly. These are the people who, when you leave, they can't handle it.

Mm-hmm.

It's abandonment to their, the pathology of who they are. It feels like abandonment and rejection. And in that they have to get, they have to get revenge. Excuse me. They have to get revenge.

Mm-hmm.

I heard that one of the typical methods when there is murder and domestic abuse, that there is revenge, you just mentioned revenge. And I'm thinking of one case where a father killed his children to get back at the woman and left her alive. Is that another portion of this control?

Sure. So, femicide for sure and filicide, the murder of children. We have this happening way too often. I think the last time I checked the stats, it's like 963 children have been murdered since 2008 by a divorcing or separating father. By divorcing or separating parents, 70% of the time it's a father. And I think it's about 12% of the time it's a mother, but I also ask, like I always ask the question,

what would make a mother do that and is that because she's actually been trapped, it's not revenge, it's that she feels hopeless versus when a father does it, it is specifically to give a clear message about who has power and control. So to answer your question, children are very unfortunately frequently used and harmed in this process and often, all too often, excuse me, murdered.

What advice would you give someone that wants to leave an abuser?

So I think, and you mentioned this the other day in an interview we did with Susan, like have an escape plan, right? But I think what I also talked about is that there's no shame in staying. We understand why people stay. It can seem more frightening. And frankly, a lot of people find out it is very scary when you leave. But having your support network.

Mm-hmm.

knowing that you're not alone. And I would say to listeners, whether you stay or go, we always should have a, I did an interview with Dr. Romany and she calls it the icky list. I call it the retraumatization list or the clarity list, which is keep a list nearby you to remind yourself of the pattern of behavior so that you can really, like whenever you're in doubt, when that person is showering you with extra attention,

with the love that you wish that you received all of the time, that you can look back at that clarity list and say, yeah, but this happened last month or last week. And that what happened is really egregious, really like look at it. If this was your sister being treated this way or your girlfriend, would you ever diminish the pain?

Yeah.

Well, I think women have this habit in general of talking much more positively to others than we talk to ourselves. And I think this feeds right into that, that we would give advice to another to leave when we in fact are staying. And I see that a lot in how women talk to each other and treat each other.

Do you see that as well?

Sure. So there's a caretaking, right? Yeah. And so there's a caretaking of others well before ourselves. And we live in a society where women are doing what we call the double day, right? They're working full time. They're taking care of the house. And certainly, you know, their partners are participating more than they ever did, you know, even 20 years ago or 10 years ago. But there's a lot of...

a lot of responsibility on moms. And then in leaving, knowing that you might, your finances are going to change and shift considerably, right? In leaving knowing that you might have to move or in leaving knowing that your children might be indoctrinated against you in a false narrative. All of that is sometimes easier to stay. It's so painful to leave. It takes quite a lot of

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, there's no shame in staying because we understand why victims stay.

I think a lot of times people think that victims are weak. What are your thoughts on that?

I think victims and survivors are the strongest people there are. Think about, I'm going to go back to Biderman's coercion chart. So he's in communist, under communist regime in the Korean War. And he's got prisoners of war who will not, did not do anything against the enemy, but now finally are so worn down that they're admitting to doing things they never did. And so that is a terrorism.

Yes.

that is with intermittent reinforcement, some good, you know, maybe you get a piece of bread and you haven't eaten in four days. That's a stark example of how that can happen. But what if you haven't received any attention in four days, somebody stonewalled you for four days, and then they finally give you attention? What is your response? Your response is to gladly, finally take that attention. And so that's what the

Yeah.

the abuser is hoping for and that's what their goal is, is to keep you really dependent upon them so that there's nothing else you need in your world. You can't focus on anything else when you're focusing on survival. And I don't mean to be dramatic. Some people who are in these situations are locked, never, excuse me, are locked maybe in the home and they can't leave or they don't have a car or they don't have any access to finances.

Sorry.

Some people are the workhorses and they're doing all the work and the other person is able to use money as freely as they want to. Some people, they are verbally assaulted constantly. Patricia Evans' book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, is a wonderful example of how that can happen and pan out. Some people are only name called sometimes. That doesn't matter. What matters is, is there a pattern of one person trying to exert power and control over you?

If somebody is doing that, they're not healthy. And if they're doing it to you, they are most certainly doing it to your children. Most certainly.

Absolutely. How does narcissism play into this?

Sure, so I think, so I'm not a big fan of the DSM-5 and I'm a clinician and the reason being is that I always think about who created the DSM-5 and unfortunately the creators of the DSM-5 were psychiatrists who were mostly men, mostly white, and who were trying to create diagnoses for what they would call deviant behavior. Now deviant doesn't mean bad, it just means against society's norms.

So that's why, I mean, we know that homosexuality at one point was in the DSM four, I believe. I don't really agree with it. However, when we think about narcissism, the way that it's detailed in the DSM and borderline, the way that it's detailed in the DSM five, there are a lot of traits that line up with these people who have these harmful behaviors. And so I prefer to call them coercive controllers.

Mm-hmm.

because first of all, not all narcissists are coercive controllers. There's a lot of people who have these, like some traits, but they're not like a 10. Coercive controllers are constantly trying to exert power over others. They are like a 10 out of a 10. And so, when I call them coercive controllers, I'm actually identifying their behavior. They are coercively controlling others. And so,

Right.

Are you know, do they meet the criteria as narcissistic personality disorder? Sure. Do they have some tendencies that align well with borderline personality disorder? Sure. But how often have we pathologized and given victims pseudo psychiatric labels? A lot. And that is so harmful to victims that that's why I just bear.

Right.

in another direction most of the time. I do call them narcissists sometimes, but I call them narcissistic abusers, and that's the difference. Not all narcissists are abusers. I call them narcissistic abusers.

Yes.

Absolutely. A lot of times I hear people saying about victims, how did they get that way? But how is an abuser created?

Sure. So, you know, I think there's a lot of research out there. I come from a very clinical perspective as a clinician, and I would say that we all are born either, like not either, but certainly more ego compromised or more ego resilient. It's just a result of DNA, genetics, intergenerational trauma. And when we're born into our family system, our family system is going to foster.

either more ego resiliency, more healthy living, or is going to foster more ego compromise. We have to assume that abusers are ego compromised. They have significant shame that they try to hide. And in that hiding, they project it onto others, whoever their scapegoat is, their primary scapegoat and their children, and whoever else decides to go against.

whatever they say, right? So they're highly disagreeable, but they'll call themselves agreeable. So in that, that's a child who didn't really grow up in a home where they received unconditional love, where they were allowed to be authentic, where they were truly allowed to be who they wanted to be in this world. And no matter how many mistakes they made, they were continually loved.

that's an abuser, that's a child who didn't grow up with that. And so not every child who grows up in that becomes an abuser, absolutely not. A lot of children grow up in those situations and they're extremely resilient and they overwhelmingly do amazing. And some of these children become fauners. They end up in abusive relationships. So it's not black and white, but I would say that if I am born more ego compromised,

Right.

Yes.

And I grew up in a family system where I don't receive unconditional love and I can't be myself. I'm going to try to hide that. And in that, there's a lot of shame. And in that shame, there's a need to exert power over others in order to feel like my shame will not be disclosed because I was so shamed as a child that having that shame exposed it just creates so much discomfort for me. I can't allow it to happen.

Wow. Well, as kind of a last, we're wrapping up here, as a last thought, what can a woman and her children do once they leave an abuser to heal?

So I think like you, I'm sure you, you know, I know you talk about this Beverly, it's like we all need to heal, right? We all need a trauma informed therapist to support us. But I also think, and I'm actually gonna be creating a listserv and I'm doing a clinical training just for therapists who wanna become coercive control informed. Because I think one of the issues that I certainly have run in as a therapist and as a protective parent and also as a survivor.

Mm-hmm.

is that if people out in the field do not really understand this, they will maybe inadvertently diminish a victim's experiences. And so that's very problematic to me, in particular for children, when they finally go to get support and somebody says, oh, I'm sorry.

Yes.

You know, your dad loves you so much though, you know, don't you want to go visit him? And the child has this feeling that they don't want to and that is being diminished for them. So I would say it's so important that people find a therapist who understands coercive control, who understands it as the foundation of all domestic abuse. I actually have a guide on my website. People can download it. It's the questions to ask a therapist before you hire them.

Right.

What do they really know and understand about coercive control? And if they don't, fine. But are you willing to learn? Because speaking for myself, I was gaslit by three marriage therapists, and my children were gaslit by therapists. And I am a therapist. The point is that you would think, oh, Christine, she does this work. She'll know enough. No. The point is that that's how, well, I think that's how deer in headlight.

Oh, perfect.

Oh, that's awful.

victims and survivors are, right? They're desperate for their children to see a therapist. And so I actually have a protective parenting program and the reason why I created it is because I, when children go to therapy, they go for 50 minutes a week. Who's the best person to help our children? A protective parent who actually understands what her children are going through. She's the best, she can be in the home.

Yes.

Right.

She can be trauma informed and coercive control informed and support her children better than anyone I believe. I truly believe in protective parents and their ability to support their children better than anyone.

That sounds so logical. So Christine, you know so much and you have so much information and you've already mentioned a couple pieces of information on your website. How can our listeners find you to learn more?

Sure, so I do reels several times a week on Instagram at drcochiola underscore coercive control. But I'm also, my website is www.inowherheart.com. And I'm in a variety of other places. I'm on YouTube. I think it's Dr. Christine Cochiola. I don't quite recall. And I have a series on there. And it's...

It's going to, I'm renaming it to connect the dots, but it's basically a series for young people who are finally recognizing, wait a minute, my dad or my mom, what is going on here? And it's an opportunity for young people, two minute videos to really understand what they've experienced in their home, to affirm for them that they are not inaccurate on their intuition.

Christine, thank you so much for being my guest today. You know so much and have helped so many women and children and your contribution to the series is invaluable. I really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you for all you do Beverly. I mean really this is takes a village. We're all working together here. Yes

It does. It does. And to my audience, thank you for being with Christine and I on this episode of Her Empowered Divorce. All of her information will be available in the show notes and this and all our episodes can be found at herempoweredivorce.com on the podcast page or wherever you listen to podcast and you can also watch the video version on YouTube at herempoweredivorce.com

Please share this story with your friends so that we can reach out and help as many victims as possible. And join me in the next episode where we'll dive deeper into all of the issues surrounding domestic violence. So thank you again. Until next time, stay empowered.