Shownotes
John McClane of Rock Island Armory joins hosts Kaylee and John to talk about how a budget-friendly firearms company from the Philippines built a recoil system he believes other manufacturers will copy once the patent runs out. John shares his path into the industry, from a closet gun owner who hid his first rifle under the bed for a year and a half, to a C-class USPSA shooter, to multiple Grand Master cards on Team Armscore. A chance EMT call between Vegas and Pahrump introduced him to the owner's family at Armscore and Rock Island, which led to a developmental shooting program, a sponsorship, and eventually his role as national training manager.
The conversation centers on the company's product philosophy and its newest guns. John explains the late CEO Martin Tuason's stance on keeping firearms reliable and affordable, and why Rock Island refuses to raise prices just to look more expensive. He walks through the patented RVS recoil system in the 5.0, a pistol that took seven years to develop and that he says shoots like it has a compensator with a standard slide and barrel. He also covers the new Pack Out folding firearm in 14-inch and 18-inch barrel versions, the RIA USA factory in Cedar City, and the .22 TCM round and its 9R redesign that now fits Glock and CZ magazines. The TCM line is held back only by SAAMI spec, which the company is working to finalize.
The episode closes with the From the Soapbox segment on a knowledge gap among post-COVID first-time gun owners. John argues the information is out there and the real problem is whether people seek it and whether the person behind the gun counter has the patience to help. He makes the case that one bad interaction can turn a new shooter off for good, and that the community gets stronger when experienced owners remember what it felt like to know nothing. He also explains Arms Corps U, his YouTube broadcast built to answer customer questions and drive demand for Rock Island products by name through distributors.
Questions this episode answers
How did John McClane go from a self-described closet gun owner to a sponsored Team Armscore competitor?
He hid his first rifle under his bed for a year and a half, then shot USPSA as a C-class competitor. A chance EMT call near Pahrump connected him to the Armscore and Rock Island owner's family, leading to a developmental program, a sponsorship, and his role as national training manager.
What is the RVS recoil system in the 5.0, and why does John think it could become an industry standard?
The RVS is a patented recoil system in Rock Island Armory's 5.0 pistol, which took seven years to develop and, McClane says, shoots like it has a compensator while using a standard slide and barrel. He believes that once the patent runs out, other manufacturers will copy the system and make it the new standard.
Why does Rock Island Armory keep its prices low instead of raising them to seem more premium?
McClane points to late CEO Martin Tuason's philosophy of keeping firearms reliable and affordable. The company refuses to raise prices just to look more expensive, because a higher price could put a gun out of reach for a buyer who would otherwise afford it.
What is the difference between Rock Island and Rock Island Armory USA?
Rock Island Armory traces to a budget-friendly firearms company from the Philippines, while Rock Island Armory USA is the brand's domestic factory operation in Cedar City.
How does the Pack Out folding firearm work, and what are the two barrel versions?
The Pack Out is a new folding firearm from Rock Island Armory, offered in a 14-inch barrel version and an 18-inch barrel version.
What is the .22 TCM round, and why is SAAMI spec holding it back?
The .22 TCM is a Rock Island Armory cartridge whose 9R redesign now fits Glock and CZ magazines. Its broader rollout is held back only by SAAMI spec, which the company is still working to finalize.
Is there a knowledge gap with post-COVID first-time gun owners, and whose responsibility is it to close it?
McClane argues the information is already out there, so the real questions are whether new owners seek it out and whether the person behind the gun counter has the patience to help. He says one bad interaction can turn a new shooter off for good.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome and the retired fancy pants
- 01:16 — John's backstory and getting into the industry
- 02:43 — From C class to Team Armscore sponsorship
- 04:48 — Remembering CEO Martin Tuason
- 07:42 — Reliable and affordable: the pricing philosophy
- 10:57 — RIA USA, Cedar City, and the Pack Out
- 13:34 — The patented RVS recoil system in the 5.0
- 15:10 — From custom build to production gun
- 20:19 — Will fear of pushback hold back innovation?
- 22:00 — The .22 TCM round and the 9R redesign
- 28:18 — Soapbox: the post-COVID knowledge gap
- 32:15 — Patience behind the gun counter
- 38:02 — Arms Corps U and asking for products by name
- 41:26 — Where to find John and Rock Island
About the guest
John McClane is the national training manager at Rock Island Armory / Armscore, a role created for him after years as a sponsored competitor. He started shooting USPSA at the local level as a C-class shooter and has since earned multiple Grand Master cards, competing on Team Armscore and placing on the podium at Three Gun Nation and the Single Stack Nationals. He first met the owner's family of Armscore and Rock Island while working as an EMT for American Medical Response, responding to a car accident between Vegas and Pahrump. He shot the 5.0 at the world shoot in South Africa. He also runs Arms Corps U, a YouTube broadcast, and FPS Holsters, a holster company he started in his garage.
Key quotes
"So it all started when my parents told me that guns were bad." — John McClane
"I bought my first rifle, and I hid it under my bed for a year and a half without my parents knowing." — John McClane
"If I up the price by $100, someone might not be able to afford my gun anymore." — John McClane
"I'm honestly a firm believer that once our patent runs out on that RVs recoil system, I would not be surprised if you started seeing that recoil system becoming the new standard for a lot of companies." — John McClane
"That's actually just the start of your problems because in order to develop that gun and create the first version of it took you three years." — John McClane
"So I think the information's out there. The question is whether or not the person wants to seek it out." — John McClane
"You can make a lifetime customer out of a bad experience if you handle it correctly." — John McClane
"We can make this community so much stronger if we just stopped self destructing ourselves." — John McClane
Transcripts
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kaylee.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today we're joined by John McClane, the man, the myth, the legend, the person who used to wear awesome pants from Rock island rmu.
Speaker B:Sean, how are you today?
Speaker C:I'm doing well, yes.
Speaker C:Used to be.
Speaker C:It's because I've decided to retire my fancy pants this year.
Speaker C:So, you know, if you want to see me, eyes are up here.
Speaker B:But that was the whole thing.
Speaker B:We love the fancy pants.
Speaker B:We're all sad.
Speaker B:We're holding a funeral at Goals will bury the pants on the range just in honor of you.
Speaker B:And we'll do a whole like, changing of the guard ceremony.
Speaker B:Perfect.
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Speaker B:Go to Ammo Squared right now to start your ammo savings account.
Speaker B:So, John, let's, let's kind of dive into your backstory.
Speaker B:You know, how did you get into the industry?
Speaker B:How did you get with Rock Island?
Speaker B:You're a competitive shooter as well, you know, how did you get into all of this?
Speaker C:So it all started when my parents told me that guns were bad.
Speaker C:That created the closet gun owner inside me when I was a kid, right?
Speaker C:Like, I wanted to play with every possible water gun and BB gun and cap gun and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:So I turned 18, I bought my first rifle, and I hid it under my bed for a year and a half without my parents knowing.
Speaker C:Then when I came out and told them I was a gun owner, they were kind of like, what?
Speaker C:Like, wow, you brought a gun into the house and didn't tell us?
Speaker C:And, you know, but I was like, yeah, but, you know, nothing's happened.
Speaker C:So it kind of opened their eyes a little bit to the fact that if you're responsible, nothing bad will happen.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Turned 21 and a buddy of mine, his dad shot USPSA at the local level.
Speaker C:He took me and his son out to watch him shoot once, and I was like, that looks like fun.
Speaker C:So I bought a handgun, went and shot a match.
Speaker C:I've been broke ever since.
Speaker C:I mean, I literally started with the Glock 22 and after my first match I went, sold it online and bought a Glock 35.
Speaker C:Because I was like, no, competition is something I'm gonna do.
Speaker C:So I wanted the longer version and stuff.
Speaker C:So I shot competitively just at a local level for, I don't know, five or six years or so.
Speaker C:At this point, I'm working for American Medical Response as an emt and I actually responded to a car accident between Vegas and Pahrump.
Speaker C:And I just happened to meet the owner's family of Arms Core and Rock island on that call.
Speaker C:So we set up some meetings.
Speaker C:I went, and at that point I was just a C class shooter.
Speaker C:So if you, if you follow uspsa, they kind of break it down in a tier of what your level is.
Speaker C:So C is like.
Speaker C:So it goes, it goes D, C, B, a master Grandmaster.
Speaker C:And I was a C level shooter.
Speaker C:And if you know anything about Team Arms Corps, they are the elite of the elite.
Speaker C:We've got Eric Grell, who's a nine time, I think, I think he's nine time now world champion.
Speaker C:We got JJ Racazu, who's also a multiple world national champion, Athena Lee, multiple national world champion, and then me, a C class shooter.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But I've always learned that when you got to be able to sell yourself and then be able to back up what you say.
Speaker C:So when I had that meeting, they basically asked us, are you, you know, are you as good as jj?
Speaker C:Which my response was, no, but it's because I can't train and practice the way I want to.
Speaker C:Like, I do think I could get to a top level if I had the resources available.
Speaker C:So they kind of started me on like a developmental program of giving me a thousand rounds of ammunition a month.
Speaker C:And I started going and practicing, training, shooting matches.
Speaker C:I'd send them results, I would show them videos of me training.
Speaker C:And after about six months, Martin Twassen, who's the CEO at the time, before he passed away last year, he saw the videos and he was like, he looks like he knows how to run a gun, so let's just sponsor him.
Speaker C:And so that became my full time sponsorship with Arms from Rock Island.
Speaker C:So since then, multiple grand mastercards in uspsa.
Speaker C:I've been on the podium a couple times at major matches between three Gun Nation and Single Stack Nationals are my two that I like to brag about.
Speaker C:And yeah, I Mean, about.
Speaker C:About seven or eight years of that.
Speaker C:And they decided, hey, let's stop just giving him guns and ammo for free.
Speaker C:Let's make him work for us.
Speaker C:So Martin created a position for me within the company as a national training manager, where I get to go around to all the distributors and box stores and the big, you know, range day shooting events that are being held around the country.
Speaker C:And I get to educate the salespeople or the customers about our products and why you should consider them as a purchase.
Speaker C:So I've been doing that now for coming on eight years within the company, and, I mean, I absolutely love it.
Speaker C:I've been paid way less to do way crappier jobs before.
Speaker C:I mean, I'm just as happy as a clam where I'm at.
Speaker B:Before we go any further, you mentioned Martin and our condolences to the Rock Island Armory family.
Speaker B:Martin was a great man.
Speaker B:I had the honor and privilege of knowing him, and he.
Speaker B:Your story about how he brought you in, he used to.
Speaker B:He did that for everybody.
Speaker B:And I just want to put that out there for people who don't know Martin and his story.
Speaker B:He was a really great man.
Speaker C:So, yeah, we miss him pretty fiercely over at the company.
Speaker C:Not just as a CEO, but, I mean, he was, you know, because of the way I was introduced to him and the family, it's funny that I never looked at him as my boss.
Speaker C:I always looked at him as one of my friends and mentors.
Speaker C:So I don't know how many people can, like, look at their CEO and be like, you're being dumb right now.
Speaker C:Knock it off.
Speaker C:But that was the kind of relationship I had with Martin where we could.
Speaker C:We could have an honest conversation because it wasn't me being afraid of my CEO, it was us working to make the company better, make the product better, you know, stuff like that.
Speaker C:So just being honest with him was a big burden off of my shoulders as far as, like, not having to feel like I had to step around eggshells with him and stuff.
Speaker C:But that was the kind of dude Martin was, too.
Speaker C:Like, he didn't.
Speaker C:If something.
Speaker C:If you weren't happy about something, he didn't want you to lie to him about it, because he can't.
Speaker C:He can't fix the problem if he doesn't know there's a problem there.
Speaker C:So he wasn't afraid to attack things.
Speaker C:And, you know, we were talking about it last night.
Speaker C:The other thing with Martin that was so amazing was probably one of his favorite things to say ever was, I'll Take care of it if you ever needed anything or, you know, having an issue with something.
Speaker C:And he knew the solution, he'd be like, I got you, man.
Speaker C:We'll, I'll get it squared away.
Speaker C:And, and he would.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So we miss him fiercely over at the company.
Speaker C:But Lisa, his sister, has stepped up as CEO and she's just crushing it.
Speaker C:I mean, she was, she was handed a very, very hard situation to deal with.
Speaker C:Not just on a professional level, but, you know, having to deal with the personal on top of the professional, but she's crushing it.
Speaker C:So, you know, we're, we're lucky to have her.
Speaker C:We're very excited to see what, what she's going to bring with the company and stuff.
Speaker C:But yeah, I mean, as far as Martin goes, man, we miss you.
Speaker C:We love you.
Speaker C:If you're still watching over us.
Speaker C:Love you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, speaking of the company going forward, you guys got not to.
Speaker B:It was a great moment and again, I don't want to cry because he was a good guy.
Speaker B:We're all getting a little teary eyed.
Speaker B:But speaking of the company going forward, all the cool stuff, you've got the new pack out coming out.
Speaker B:You've got the new the 5.0 that is re being introduced and all the cool upgrades that you guys have done to that.
Speaker B:You know, what has that process been not only with that gun with the 5.0, but also with the reception of this new pack out you guys are doing.
Speaker C:So, you know, Rock Island Armory, especially with Martin.
Speaker C:Martin was very, very strong.
Speaker C:He was a very strong advocate about making firearms that were reliable but also affordable.
Speaker C:I actually had discussions with him about, you know, sometimes when people get to the gun counters, there's this weird switch that flips and that switches.
Speaker C:You get what you pay for.
Speaker C:I'm not saying that's not true.
Speaker C:Sometimes you do get what you pay for.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But there's also other times where you can find a better bargain, more bang for your buck kind of aspect.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And when you look at Rock Islands in the gun case, a lot of times you'll notice the price tag is significantly lower for the same type of gun that someone else might make.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I remember we were, we were having a discussion about how sometimes that price difference was so big that people would shy away from buying a Rock island because they thought the price was so low.
Speaker C:Like it must be cheap.
Speaker C:It's, it can't be a good gun.
Speaker C:It's made in the Philippines.
Speaker C:It's subpar, you know, whatever.
Speaker C:And when I asked them about like, well, why don't we just, like, let's up the price a little bit more so that we're, you know, maybe Instead of being $150 cheaper, we're only $50 cheaper now.
Speaker C:That price difference isn't so big.
Speaker C:And the customers might see the difference.
Speaker C:You know, they won't see that difference in value as much.
Speaker C:And his answer was, if I up the price by $100, someone might not be able to afford my gun anymore.
Speaker C:And sometimes they'll just get to the gun store and that's.
Speaker C:They've got a budget, they can't go over it, and my gun might be the only option for them.
Speaker C:And we know it's a good gun.
Speaker C:We know it's reliable.
Speaker C:And, you know, when you look at Rock Island Armory as a company and with the fan base, people that buy Rock Islands tend to stick with them.
Speaker C:You know, I always talk about how when you're shopping for a car, what do we do?
Speaker C:We go to dealership one, dealership two, dealership three, dealership four.
Speaker C:And we're looking for the same make, model, year, features, and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:But no one goes.
Speaker C:And they go, all right, well, I'm going to buy it from Dealership 4 because it was $4,000 more.
Speaker C:And you get what you pay for.
Speaker C:Everyone goes to the same car, but the better price and the better deal.
Speaker C:Then even in the gun store, when they're looking at ammo for training, for example, no one's looking at it being like, I need to find the most expensive full metal jacket ammo because it's going to be the best.
Speaker C:Everyone wants to get more bang for their buck.
Speaker C:But then they get to the gun counter and that flip, that switch flips, and they think, I get what I pay for.
Speaker C:Well, if that was the case, then Glock would have gone out of business a long time ago.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C: , understand we specialize in: Speaker C:It's been made the same way for decades.
Speaker C:We haven't changed anything about it.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna tell you that it's the greatest gun in the world because there's a reason why it's priced the way it is.
Speaker C:Maybe some of the fitments aren't quite as tight or whatever, but, like, when you're talking about the accuracy issues, you're talking about, like if you put it in the grip of a robot that would never move the gun and has the perfect trigger pull, yes, you might see a grouping difference.
Speaker C:But for us humans, it's accurate enough and it's reliable, you can get the job done right.
Speaker C:So that's the, the company as a whole where it started.
Speaker C:Now since then we have expanded to Rock Island Armor usa which is a factory here in the US In Cedar City.
Speaker C:And what we're trying to do with that brand is kind of, you know, Rock island is our Chevy line.
Speaker C:That's the blue collar working line.
Speaker C:That's the gun that most people are going to be looking at.
Speaker C:But maybe you're looking for a Cadillac that's going to be Rock island army usa.
Speaker C:The amount of time and fitment and all that stuff, as far as the gunsmithing assembly, it's going to be a little bit higher quality, it's going to be a little bit better fit, maybe match grade barrels and stuff like that.
Speaker C:So the problem we find that we're running into a lot of people just see Rock island and they don't see the RA USA part and they just go, well I'm not going to pay that price for a Rock island.
Speaker C:That's too expensive.
Speaker C:But in reality you're, you're getting the luxury version of our, of our product such as with the 5.0.
Speaker C:Like that gun is still.
Speaker C:Even though we, we produce a lot of the parts as much as we can on the machine, there's still quite a bit of fitment that needs to be taking place to get that gun to run.
Speaker C:But when you shoot it, you understand it and then you have stuff like the pack out.
Speaker C:So now we've got this, this short version which is a F grip on the back, no stock.
Speaker C:It's an 18 inch barrel.
Speaker C:No, I'm sorry, 14 inch barrel.
Speaker C:So you can, you can fold in half, throw it in your backpack, take it, take it with you up on hikes and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:You have the ability to protect yourself from the wildlife or maybe even some of the creatures on two legs if you're out there.
Speaker C:And then you've got the, the long version which is the 18 inch barrel.
Speaker C:And then it has a stock that folds off to the side so again it's still packable into a, into a large backpack or something like that.
Speaker C:But you can take, maybe you want go on a turkey hunt with it, but you've got to hike quite a ways to get to them on public land.
Speaker C:Like now instead of having to carry the gun with you, you can just throw it in your pack and let's go.
Speaker C:And then once you get to your spot, unfold it and get to work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So There's a little bit of innovation that goes into that.
Speaker C:Parts are machined over in the U.S. again, the fitment, the, you know, everything about it's just a little bit more precise and yet the price point is still like 600 to 650 for MSRP for a gun like that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So it's just, it's been really exciting to see this company be able to, to grow out and expand.
Speaker C:I mean a Filipino company expanded into the US is kind of the opposite of what most people do.
Speaker C:You know, most companies start in the US and then they start outsourcing jobs overseas.
Speaker C:And Martin was bringing jobs in the US So it's been fun to see.
Speaker C:But you know, I guess that, I mean I've shot the 5.0 in the world shoot in South Africa a couple months ago, ran great.
Speaker C:The recoil impulse is insane with that RVs recoil system that we designed and patented.
Speaker C:I'm looking forward to the new guns that we're, we're currently working on that uses that recoil system.
Speaker C:And I think the customers will once, once you get your hands on it and you shoot it, you'll be like, I get it now.
Speaker C:That's, that's where that price tag come in came in was from all of the recent.
Speaker C:I mean that gun took seven years for us to develop.
Speaker C:So you know, we are still a business but don't think we're making money, you know, hand over fist.
Speaker C:Like we're just, we know it's a marathon in us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Shoot the five.
Speaker B:Oh, trust me, it's, it's good.
Speaker C:Have you shot it?
Speaker A:I have not.
Speaker C:You haven't.
Speaker C: dust cover, all steel frame,: Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I mean it's, it's, everything about it is working for you as far as recoil, impulse.
Speaker C:I'll have them shoot that gun and then immediately pick up a 5.
Speaker C:0.
Speaker C:It's the same ammunition, it's a polymer, polymer grip, aluminum frame and then steel upper.
Speaker C:But when you shoot it right next to one another, there's something about the 5.0 where you're like, oh my God, I'm back on target already.
Speaker C:You know.
Speaker C:So the technology is different, but the shooting experience is significantly better as far as the recoil, impulse, muzzle rise and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:So like I would love to get one in your hands.
Speaker C:So you could literally Do a side by side comparison.
Speaker C:And actually, I mean, if you're going to be there for the Cedar City event, you'll get an opportunity to do that for sure.
Speaker C:But just, yeah, the 5.0 is a fantastic.
Speaker C:It's a phenomenal shooting gun and I'm looking forward to more people seeing the potential in it.
Speaker A:So I want to kind of go back a little bit to the point that you were talking about with innovation and the amount of time and effort that you guys have put into bringing a product like the 502 market, kind of walk people through.
Speaker A:Because I think for a lot of people on the consumer side, they think that people just wave a magic wand and innovation happens.
Speaker A:So take us behind the scenes a bit.
Speaker A:And about, you know, from concept to product testing, how, how does that process work?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's, it's interesting, right, because when you're, when you're creating a product, everything starts off as a custom job.
Speaker C:So you've got someone that has all the machines to cut parts and cut them at angles and mill and drill and all that kind of stuff, right?
Speaker C:So you kind of create this concept of a gun and when you finally are like, all right, here it is, it's done.
Speaker C:That's actually just the start of your problems because in order to develop that gun and create the first version of it took you three years.
Speaker C:Well, if you want to produce it, you can't do it every time.
Speaker C:One unit, three years.
Speaker C:So now you got to look at it and go, where?
Speaker C:How do I produce this in a way that I can crank 40, 50, 60 units a day out, but yet not drop in the quality?
Speaker C:Right, because you're still going to have fitment and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:So it was very interesting to look at a gun that was so highly specialized over because again, seven years worth of development to then go, all right, now we have all the pieces.
Speaker C:Now let's develop the machines, let's create the CAD programming, let's get the CNC machines working.
Speaker C:Let's have.
Speaker C:So like you're talking about just for the slide alone, you'll make a version, try to put a gun together and go, oh, the slide's not right.
Speaker C:What do we do?
Speaker C:We cut the rails too short, we cut them too long, we're too fat, too thick.
Speaker C:Now you've got to machine another slide with those changes.
Speaker C:And then that's again, you're like, all right, well now that fits.
Speaker C:But the firing pin channel is too short or too, too wide or blah.
Speaker C:And you have to.
Speaker C:So you're talking about.
Speaker C:It's not just like a, okay, here's the gun, 3D, scan it and let's go.
Speaker C:Like, there's still a lot that has to go from it being a custom gun to a production gun, essentially.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that's where when we first launched the 5.0, we only had the version where it was either a red dot or it was an iron sight.
Speaker C:And that was because we just hadn't developed the programming and technology to create both cuts in a slide.
Speaker C:And then we didn't have the wherewithal as far as like the.
Speaker C:Or the information available to know if you had the cuts for the iron sights and the red dot.
Speaker C:What would adding the weight of a red dot to the slide do to the functionality of the firearm?
Speaker C:Like, we didn't have enough data, but we really wanted to launch the gun and put it out on the market.
Speaker C:So again, those little things happen.
Speaker C:And even to the point where, you know, springs, for example, like we're building a gun, we built it from the ground up.
Speaker C:Our recoil spring doesn't fit any other gun.
Speaker C:So, like, if we want to do an adjustable weight for the recoil spring, now we've got to go back to a supplier and say, hey, those recoil springs that you built for the 5.0, we need, you know, 10,000 units of it at 13 pounds and then 10,000 units of 14, and then 10,000 units at 11 pounds.
Speaker C:Because people like to reload their own ammunition.
Speaker C:They want the gun to function, the recoil, impulse and stuff like that.
Speaker C:I mean, there's so much that goes into it.
Speaker C:So, yeah, like you said, it's not just as simple as being like, here's the gun, copy paste and let's go.
Speaker C:Like, there's so much more that goes into it.
Speaker C:So, I mean, you even look at someone like Glock, and I know a lot of people use them for, you know, every sort of benchmark that you can on the firearms market.
Speaker C:But like, anytime they change their frame or their grip, what most people don't realize is to get a mold is like anywhere from 10 to $20,000 just to get one mold so that you can inject the polymer into it and create your frame.
Speaker C:Well, I'm sure Glock has more than one mold.
Speaker C:So you're talking about a multi million dollar investment to get enough molds to be able to crank the units out in the numbers that they do.
Speaker C:And then they have to recoup their.
Speaker C:The cost of all that buildup over time.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, it's not gonna be again it's not, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
Speaker C:You're not going to make your money after selling your first 10 guns.
Speaker C:You make your money back after you've sold 10,000 and now you've broken even.
Speaker C:Now you can start making money, right?
Speaker C:So, yeah, I mean, if more consumers knew, like, understood, you know, what goes into that?
Speaker C:I mean, that's kind of like looking at fuel.
Speaker C:I think some people think like, oh, well, why are fuel costs going up?
Speaker C:Because the fuel has to get to you.
Speaker C:So the truckers have to drive it.
Speaker C:They've got to fuel their truck up to get the fuel to where you're going.
Speaker C:And if the fuel prices are going up, they're having to pay more, which means the company that's shipping the fuel has to charge more for it.
Speaker C:You know, stuff like that.
Speaker C:Like, it's, it's, it's tough, it's interesting.
Speaker C:But hey, if you don't love the hustle, then just go work a 9 to 5 and be thankful for the paycheck.
Speaker C:Let someone else deal with it.
Speaker B:The 5.0 is so different, right?
Speaker B:Was there any fear of seeing guns in the past that people have looked outside of the box and people have just been like, no, this is too far outside of the box, or was it just like, no, we're going to bring this new product in.
Speaker B:Does the fear of people not liking it push back innovation?
Speaker C:So I think as far as the market goes for our community and the mindset of a lot of people, I absolutely think that sometimes innovation will scare some people off because of the fact that they know they're going to get pushback.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:For us though, having shot the gun and experiencing it, for us, it was more like, you know what, the product is too good.
Speaker C:Even if people want to talk crap about it to start off with, over time enough people will start shooting it and realize, yes, there is something superior about this.
Speaker C:I'm honestly a firm believer that once our patent runs out on that RVs recoil system, I would not be surprised if you started seeing that recoil system becoming the new standard for a lot of companies going to that as far as future production of firearms.
Speaker C:Like, I mean, again, everyone's going to take what I say with a grain of salt because I work for the company.
Speaker C:But that recoil impulse is so much significantly better than, I mean, the gun shoots like it has a compensator on the front end as far as the muzzle flip and the recoil impulse, but it's just a standard slide and barrel kind of thing.
Speaker C:Like again, shoot it, find one and shoot it and you'll understand like it's same thing with our TCM round.
Speaker C:You know, that's still around that a lot of people don't know about.
Speaker B:I was just gonna ask you about the TCM round.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean we're trying to relaunch it with a little bit more hype behind it this time We've got a few more guns that we're going to launch with it.
Speaker C:Like our SDK line which is our aluminum framed striker fired pistol.
Speaker C: Glock with a aluminum frame,: Speaker C:Drop in work, you know, with it red dot ready and all that stuff.
Speaker C:We're getting ready to launch a version of that gun with our TCM9R.
Speaker C:And again that, that's around that.
Speaker C:You know, the only thing that's holding that round back from our perspective is other ammunition companies and other firearm companies aren't producing products that support the round.
Speaker C:But what's holding that back?
Speaker C:It's not that they don't want to, it's just that it's not Sammy Spec'd, which we're in the process of getting done.
Speaker C:So I think again, that's gonna be one of those things where once we get, once we get the.22 TCM Sammy spec'd.
Speaker C:I mean I've already talked to people at Smith and Wesson, Ruger, Springfield Armory.
Speaker C:Like I've shown them the round, I've let them shoot it and they've all loved it.
Speaker C:I think once we get to the point where, hey, it's Sammy Spec, here's, here's the specs, here's the pressures, you know, all that kind of stuff that they can, you know, now their legal teams can go, okay, yes, now we can make the gun.
Speaker C:I mean, I think you're going to see a lot of guns that are shooting that round and that, that round is a phenomenal shooting experience.
Speaker B:Oh, it's one of my favorite to shoot.
Speaker B:I bought, I bought the Tac Ultra because.
Speaker B:Yeah, the double stack Knight Tailor, that's attack ultra.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:In 22 TCM.
Speaker B:I went through all the ammo I had really quickly because it's, it's such a, it's loud.
Speaker B:I'm gonna just put it.
Speaker B:It's a loud round.
Speaker B:It sounds scary.
Speaker B:Yeah, like my wife didn't want to shoot it because she's like, that's loud and scary because it's just fireballs.
Speaker B:But once you get somebody behind the gun, it doesn't move, it shoots flat.
Speaker B:It's low recoil, just quick follow up shots.
Speaker B:All it is is just loud, scary, boom.
Speaker B:But it's one of my favorite rounds to shoot especially fast because it's just, I can't say enough about the tool.
Speaker B:That's why I was going to ask you about it because that, it's another round that I would love to see more, more companies have out, more people actually get to shoot.
Speaker B:I think it, when it comes to rounds that are new, we saw this with like the 30 super carry and a couple of the other rounds that people are just like, oh, it's, it's not Sammy spec like you said.
Speaker B:Or oh, I don't know if it's gonna have the support down the road.
Speaker B:Why would I buy, buy this round now before everybody else gets to do it.
Speaker B:Because the prices may go up a little bit or down.
Speaker B:But buy it now.
Speaker B:I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna say that because I love it.
Speaker C:Well, and it's, it's a very fun concept too because a lot of the times the only thing that it requires is a change in the barrel and spring.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C: now, when we sell them in our: Speaker C:So you pull the gun apart, swap the barrel spring out, put it back together and you run the same mags for the same frame.
Speaker C:Everything is the same except for the barrel and spring.
Speaker C: originally designed around a: Speaker C: And nine millimeter mags and: Speaker C:So the overall length of the original 20 TCM is the same as a 38 super.
Speaker C:And years ago we came out with a Glock conversion kit because again we realized all you had to do is swap out the barrel in the spring and you can shoot this through any 9 millimeter.
Speaker C:But what we found was that glock magazines are true 9 millimeter overall length.
Speaker C:So our original bullet wouldn't physically fit into the mag.
Speaker C:So that's where we have the.22 TCM9R or Stance 9 revolution is that the redesign of the bullet was to make the bullet true overall 9 millimeter length.
Speaker C:So now it fits in the Glock mags, fits into CZ mags or whatever.
Speaker C:So yeah, a Lot of these companies, I think once we get it Sami spec'd and that becomes an available option.
Speaker C:Like, I don't even think some of these companies, they probably don't even need to sell or manufacture a gun that's tcm.
Speaker C:They might just need to manufacture the barrel and get springs.
Speaker C:And then every customer that's ever bought one of their 9 millimeters, they can literally just be like, hey, would you like a barrel and spring to be able to drop into that gun?
Speaker C:And you run the same magazine through your same gun, but you get to shoot a different caliber of it.
Speaker C:Like, I mean, I, I think it's, we're gonna take over the world.
Speaker B:So if somebody asks, because I'm gonna ask this, if you have an original TCM, can you shoot the 9R in it?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, the biggest reason was for the overall length of the magazine issue.
Speaker C:But if you have an original TCM and you can only find 9R ammunition, you can still shoot that ammo through the gun, no issues.
Speaker C:The only gun that is really proprietary to needing the original TCM bullet is going to be our bolt action gun.
Speaker C:And that's because the actual feeding action from the bolt requires the bullet design from the original TCM.
Speaker C:So the only gun you can't necessarily, you can shoot 9R through a bolt action, but it might not feed as smooth if it's not using the original bullet.
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Speaker A:Well, it is time for our segment from the Soapbox, my favorite one where we tackle the spicier topics of things that are going on in the 2A space.
Speaker A:So I'll kick it off with my question on.
Speaker A:Do you feel like there is a knowledge gap that is happening with gun owners that are kind of in this post Covid era where they purchase guns that they might not know a ton about or are just super cautious to swap a barrel in spring or to do any work outside of cleaning their gun?
Speaker A:Do you see like a educational barrier happening right now?
Speaker C:I. I don't think so.
Speaker C:I think the people that, you know, there's, there's tons of information out there.
Speaker C:I mean, Christ, I, I've learned how to carve a Turkey thanks to YouTube on Thanksgiving Day, right?
Speaker C:Like, I've, I've gotten into hunting.
Speaker C:I learned how to process a deer by watching the deer processing videos as I'm cutting into the leg and stuff, right?
Speaker C:So I think the information's out there.
Speaker C:The question is whether or not the person wants to seek it out.
Speaker C:And then, and it's the hardest thing, especially for us men to do, right, Is if there's something you don't understand, then just ask for help, right?
Speaker C:And I think that's, that's one of the things I would love to see that changes in our industry is the, the people behind the gun counters to have a little bit more patience because we do have a surplus of people now that went out and bought their first gun because of the, the riots and the protests and, you know, fear and safety of their theirselves and their family.
Speaker C:So they went and bought a gun.
Speaker C:But, man, sometimes I've seen interactions with people behind the counter where, like, you walk in the store and they expect you to know all the questions already.
Speaker C:Like, don't come in and ask me, like, what's the difference between a 9 millimeter and 40?
Speaker C:Like, I ain't got time to explain to you the difference between the two, right?
Speaker C:Like, I, I hate seeing those kind of interactions because that's how you can turn a new gun owner in, off really quickly to being like, oh my God, like, never mind, I'm never asking another question again kind of thing.
Speaker C:And that's where, you know, some injuries, mistakes and accidents can happen.
Speaker C:But I mean, I think that the knowledge is out there.
Speaker C:It's just a matter of wanting to seek it.
Speaker C:And then when you, when you do find it, if there's anything you don't understand, reach out to someone and ask the question, right?
Speaker C:But I think if, if people are willing to, to have that conversation and have that kind of mindset of, of the more like be proactive instead of reactive, I think you would probably see that not become or not seem like Such a, such a big issue.
Speaker C:But you know, like I said, it's just a matter of, of sometimes getting in the right person.
Speaker C:And I'm not saying everyone's going to be always in a chipper mood all the time.
Speaker C:We don't know what's going on in our personal lives.
Speaker C:Guy behind the counter might be going through a divorce and that's why he's so pissed off and he just decides to take it out on a customer.
Speaker C:You know, stuff like that.
Speaker C:But yeah, I mean, as far as the gap there, I mean, I think the gap is there, but I think it's also self inflicted.
Speaker C:The person either chooses to, to get more involved or they just say, you know what, what I know is what I know and I don't need to know anymore.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Same thing with shooting skills.
Speaker C:Some people just buy the gun, they go and buy 50 rounds, go shoot it and go, okay, I'm good enough.
Speaker C:And they put it in their gun safe and they never plan on taking that again.
Speaker C:Other people, like me, I would go out and shoot, I'd miss the target a couple times and be like, why did I miss?
Speaker C:And that would just bug me.
Speaker C:And I started to dive into how do I get better at shooting?
Speaker C:How do you grip the gun better, how do you trigger?
Speaker C:You know, pull the trigger better, how do you align the sights better?
Speaker C:Like I, I was hungry for the knowledge and I went and seeked it.
Speaker C:So it's also a personality thing, I think, you know, some people are very, very much proactive versus being like, no, I'm good, I, I got what I need.
Speaker B:So you mentioned the guys behind the gun counter, and you're right, there's sometimes there's great guys and sometimes we have this gap where they're kind of grumpy and angry all the time, you know, is, do you think this, this gap depending on stores, this based on, do you think it's the management?
Speaker B:Do you think it's lack of training?
Speaker B:Is it something that the community could come together?
Speaker B:Could, could manufacturers come in and help more with this training on it, you know, educating the customers, things like that?
Speaker B: come into a store and want a: Speaker B:And they're like, well, that Rock Island's $400, that price gap.
Speaker B:Is there like an education thing that the industry could be doing to help bridge those gaps and help Out.
Speaker C:I mean, I think there could be.
Speaker C:I would love to see.
Speaker C:You know, it's so the firearms world, when I first got into it is very overwhelming.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like if you look at any knowing nothing about guns, the first thing you do is go to a gun website and you start doing research.
Speaker C:What do you see?
Speaker C:You see all these make and models and names and terminology that gun people know.
Speaker C:But I don't know anything about guns, so I don't know what officer model or commander model is.
Speaker C:Like, what do those mean?
Speaker C:So now I gotta google that.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:And then you see, oh, here's a nine millimeter.
Speaker C:Okay, cool.
Speaker C:What's the 380?
Speaker C:Well, how big is a 380?
Speaker C:Well, it's a nine millimeter.
Speaker C:Wait, what do you mean?
Speaker C:Well, it's a shorter 9 millimeter.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Okay, but why do they call 380?
Speaker C:Why don't they call like 9 millimeter short or something like that?
Speaker C:It's like, well, and then you got like the 9 millimeter.
Speaker C:The 9 millimeter Makarov.
Speaker C:So that's 9 millimeter.
Speaker C:Well, it is, but it's not like you can't run it in your nine millimeter because it, the chamber's different.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That's just covering nine.
Speaker C:Then you get into the rifle world and oh my gosh, let's not even get started.
Speaker C:What's 223 versus 308 versus 6.5 cream or versus 7 millimeter?
Speaker C:What's an 8 millimeter?
Speaker C:What's this?
Speaker C:You know, like all these different calibers, it can be so overwhelming.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So I think really what it comes down to as far as, you know, education of the, the masses, it's more about pollute or saturate the knowledge space with the most common products and the explanation of them.
Speaker C:Then again, let the person decide whether or not they want to expand their knowledge into more calibers, more makes, more models, more terminology and stuff like that.
Speaker C:But you know, that initial interaction can either turn someone on or off.
Speaker C:Like I said, if the first question they ask they get their head bit off by someone that's in a bad mood and doesn't want to explain to you why a 9 millimeter is maybe superior than a 380 in a self defense situation or something like that, man, they'll never ask another question again because they're that fear of being like, oh my God, he made me feel so stupid.
Speaker C:Like, is that what this community is about is degrading me because I don't know anything?
Speaker C:As a new gunner, do I have to be an expert before I can come in and ask a question and sound knowledgeable or anything, something like that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:So, I mean, I think, and, and again, between YouTube and our, our phones being on our beck and call any moment, you can Google anything.
Speaker C:You can AI like, there's a lot of information you can get out there.
Speaker C:But, you know, finding someone that's also very knowledgeable and willing to help out I think is going to be the biggest thing.
Speaker C:And that's why I love my job so much.
Speaker C:Like national training manager.
Speaker C:For me, that's literally what I do.
Speaker C:So I go to these shooting events and I talk to people and I can't tell you how many times I've had people walk up and be like, I've never shot a pistol before.
Speaker C:Great, that's, that's perfect.
Speaker C:That means you're a clean slate.
Speaker C:I've got no bad habits that I need to worry about you doing.
Speaker C:So let, let's get you in a good shooting stance.
Speaker C:Let's get a good grip.
Speaker C:Let me teach you the, the, the benefit.
Speaker C:You know, the basics correctly and stuff.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And yeah, sometimes I've had moments where I'm just like, that was a close call.
Speaker C:That was a little, I was a little sketchy.
Speaker C:Maybe I should have started him with a.22 or something like that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But, you know, just still trying to keep that positive attitude and that, keep that a positive shooting experience for the person.
Speaker C:Because if they, if that's the first interaction they have.
Speaker C:And the same thing with our products.
Speaker C:You know, brand loyalty is a huge thing.
Speaker C:I'm notorious for it.
Speaker C:When I find a brand that I like and, and more than not only do is it a brand that I like, but a company that I can respect and I feel respected by, you'll have, I'll, I'll buy your stuff regardless of what it is, because I know that I'm not just getting a good product, but I'm also gonna have a good experience if I get a bad product.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:You can, you can make a lifetime customer out of a bad experience if you handle it correctly.
Speaker C:You can also make a lifetime villain if you have the incorrect response to a bad customer complaint or issue.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I mean, I think it could be, it could be done.
Speaker C:But again, it's also going to be dependent upon the person whether or not they want to seek the information and then not be afraid to ask the questions.
Speaker C:And they get an interaction with the right person.
Speaker C:So for those of you that work in gun stores and gun counters, come on man, like remember when you didn't know anything about guns?
Speaker C:Just remember that feeling of like overwhelming information that you have nothing about and just put yourself in their shoes for a moment, take a breath and be polite.
Speaker C:Like we, we can make this community so much stronger if we just stopped self destructing ourselves.
Speaker A:As liberty loving Americans, we know how important it is to put your money where your values are.
Speaker A:And that is why we are proud to partner with Right to Bear.
Speaker A:Right to Bear is a cornerstone in the community for self defense protection and we are proud to be offering an exclusive discount.
Speaker B:Use Code GOA at checkout to save 15% off the lifetime of your membership.
Speaker B:Again, that's Code Goa to save 15% off on the lifetime of your membership.
Speaker B:Speaking of education, I see that you guys are starting an education component with Rock Island Arms Corps with the.
Speaker B:Was it the university?
Speaker B:How is that going for you guys and why did you decide to do that?
Speaker C:So yeah, Arms Corps U is a YouTube broadcast that I do.
Speaker C:I try to do it once, if not twice a month.
Speaker C:I haven't been doing any recently just with all the things within the company that were taking place.
Speaker C:But basically that turns into a moment where I go live.
Speaker C:Anyone can log on and watch and I have the chat active.
Speaker C:So if you ask me a question, I'll answer it right then and there if I can.
Speaker C:If I can't, I give you my contact info and I just have you send me an email so that I have a reminder to ask that question.
Speaker C:I get you an answer for it.
Speaker C:But and it's not even necessarily only about Arms Corner and Rock island army products.
Speaker C:If you ask me a question about another gun or another caliber or something like that, I'll explain what's going on.
Speaker C:It's more of a platform and an opportunity for me to have these conversations with people and educate them.
Speaker C:Now, the basic concept behind it came from, for us as a company, we sell mostly the majority of our business is through box stores and distribution.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:So we have to wait for the distributors to place orders for us to ship them to them.
Speaker C:Then they send them off to their gun stores and then the gun stores then sell it to the customers.
Speaker C:And the primary goal behind Arms Core U was to constantly be answering questions about Rock Island Armory products so that the consumers have the knowledge, hear what they need to hear about the product and then go into the gun store and then tell them, I just watched a video on the STK200 and I'd love to buy one.
Speaker C:Now you've got the customer asking for the make and model by name, which then the gun store has to go to the distributor and say, I need to order an SDK 200.
Speaker C:And then the distributor comes back to us and say, we've got orders for SDK200 as we need to fill in.
Speaker C:Because when you go the other way around, you know, the distributors, they're not just selling Rock Islands, they're selling Glocks, they're selling Sigs, they're selling Smith and Wesson's, they're, you know, everyone.
Speaker C:And sometimes you get spiffs going on.
Speaker C:Sales guys are like, hey, whoever sells the most Smith and Wesson's get, gets a gun or gets, you know, some sort of price package.
Speaker C:Well then every time a customer calls, a dealer calls them and says, hey, I need to place an order.
Speaker C:What do you have in stock?
Speaker C:What are they pushing?
Speaker C:They're going to push whatever it is that's going to get them a little prize or something, right?
Speaker C:So I, I started Arms Core U with the idea of if I could just get more customers asking for our product by name, then it doesn't matter when they call the distributor, then the conversation is going to say, hey, I need to place an order first.
Speaker C:I need a Rock Island STK200, I need a 5.0 and I need a Tac Ultra.
Speaker C:What else do you have in stock?
Speaker C:So now our product's being asked by name, being ordered by demand, and then the company can fill in the gaps from there.
Speaker C:So that was kind of the process and the thought process behind arm's4u.
Speaker C:But again, it's, it's, it's a platform where I just, I get to sit there, I get to interact with either fans of Rock Islands.
Speaker C:Maybe someone's having a problem with Rock Islands.
Speaker C:I've, I've had those people on the chat too that just start reaming me a new one.
Speaker C:And it is what it is.
Speaker C:But yeah, it's just, it was, I just looked at it as a way to try and talk to the, the customers and consumers face to face, to be able to say like, you know, hey, just so you know, we made a change to this gun and here's the change.
Speaker C:If you're seeing this kind of an issue, let us know and we can send you the new parts or upgrades or whatever and stuff like that.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Well, John, we really appreciate you taking the time to join us.
Speaker B:I love the conversation we had.
Speaker B:Go ahead and shout out where people can find you and Rock island and Arms Core and everything that you guys are doing.
Speaker C:Yeah, so like on as far as Instagram grows our accounts at Rock Island Armory, we do have a YouTube channel.
Speaker C:Just search, search up arms core precision.
Speaker C:You'll be able to find it there and that's where you'll be able to see those live broadcasts.
Speaker C:You can go to armscore.com if you get signed up for our mailing list.
Speaker C:Then anytime I go live, I send out an email blast to every person to say, hey, we're getting ready to go live in, you know, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
Speaker C:Here's the timeframe, here's the link.
Speaker C:Just click here when you're ready kind of thing and you can tune in from there.
Speaker C:Personally for me, if you want to follow me on Instagram, that's @McLean John.
Speaker C:And then my YouTube channel is @fpsholsters, which is a little holster company that I started in my garage and just sit there and grind away making, making holsters for people and stuff like that.
Speaker C:But that's where you'll see a lot of my YouTube channel content.
Speaker C:Obviously pretty heavy with the Rock island stuff, but I actually do prize gun reviews from when I go to matches and I win a gun.
Speaker C:Now I get to say what I want about the gun because it wasn't sent to me by the company and they're like, hey, say nothing but nice things.
Speaker C:I could be like, God, this thing's a piece of garbage.
Speaker C:Or here's the issues that I have with it because I want it, right?
Speaker C:Like, what are they gonna do, not send me another gun?
Speaker C:Okay, I'll just take one off a prize table and I win it again.
Speaker C:So yeah, so that's where you can find me on the social medias and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:But yeah, check us out.
Speaker C:Rock Island Armory, Armscore.com, tons of information there.
Speaker C:You can check out all our products from RA USA on that page as well, like the Packout shotgun and the 5o.
Speaker C:And thanks for having me.
Speaker C:I appreciate the conversation.
Speaker C:It's always fun to to talk about guns and ammo.
Speaker C:Like I said, I've been paid way less to do way crappier jobs than to sit here and talk about guns.
Speaker B:Well guys, if you can't find them on socials, you may find them crawling through duck work somewhere.
Speaker B:Little die hard reference there.
Speaker B:I had to.
Speaker B:It's your name,.
Speaker A:Guys.
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