Key Takeaways

How do cross cultural couples navigate time apart? How does growing up with different family and society expectations impact a couple’s relationship? As Pesa and Whitney Shayo share their cross cultural marriage story and how they learned to understand each other, much of what they share can be extremely valuable for couples who spend time apart.

1. Learn emotional connection

This is one of the biggest takeaways of our conversation. Pesa shares that he grew up in an environment that did not emphasise emotional connection. As he was working multiple jobs to provide for his family, he thought he was being a great husband and provider. His wife, meanwhile, needed emotional closeness and it led to her suggesting separation.

“It hit me, and that's when I really paused and I started listening because I was able to understand that as much as I'm working and doing the right thing, I'm about to lose my family. And I was able to start listening. And that's when I started this journey of being able to understand that there's another version of life, which is you need to also be there emotionally.”

1. “What you think is right might not be what somebody else thinks is right even if you have the best of intentions.”

Also a very important point that Pesa and Whitney highlight. This needs to be the starting point of every interaction and a mindset: what I think is right and what my spouse/partner thinks is right may not be the same

1. If you are in an argument, do something to ‘take it down a notch’

“For the husband listening to this, one of the hings that has really helped me when it comes to repair is being more agreeable. If you feel like you are being attacked, sometimes you can say ‘I see your point, I really see your point, so I'll start working on that right now’. This avoids the back and forth and the escalation of the argument

1. Seek a United Front

Whether answering a demand from the in-laes, or taking a parenting decision, “we always look at it from the lens of united front. When we talk about united front, we basically mean that we are not saying we are not arguing, or we are not saying that we don't disagree. We are saying that we will have that private time to have this conversation first.”

The United Front Audit focuses on five areas. It reveals where your marriage unity is strong, where it is cracking and what to do next based on your situation.

• Loyalty alignment
• Shared Game Plan
• Boundary Strength
• Conflict Patterns
• United Front

The Shayos are authors, speakers, and co-founders of Live Your Best Marriage. Drawing from over 22 years of cross-cultural marriage, they provide faith-rooted resources and a "United Front Blueprint" to help couples navigate cultural differences, in-law pressure, and communication hurdles.

Explore the United Front Audit and download tools for couples at Live Your Best Marriage (liveyourbestmarriage.com).

Contact Rhoda: [email protected]

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Buy the book: Holding the Fort Abroad

Your partner's job opportunity in another country seemed like an exciting idea, but lengthy work assignments mean you're holding down the family fort - alone.

OR Your partner is working and living in another country, and you feel like you are shouldering all the home responsibilities alone.

You may be wondering:

• How can we be a family when we're miles apart?
• Can I cope, alone, when troubles arise?

I believe there are answers to the above questions, and the answers start with you. In this context, it's more important than ever to invest in yourself, to care for yourself, to set your own goals and to watch yourself grow. Equally important is to nurture your relationship with your partner and learn to parent together.

Welcome to Holding the Fort Abroad, the podcast for families where one parent works away from home and for those who support them. My name is Rhoda Bangerter, and I help you build connection across the miles. Today we have Pesa and Whitney Shayo. They're authors, speakers, and co-founders of Live Your Best Marriage. They've been married over 22 years in a cross-cultural marriage, and they provide faith-rooted resources and a United Front blueprint to help couples navigate cultural differences, in-law pressure, and communication hurdles. And you are the first couple on my podcast, so welcome. I'm very happy to have you here.

Thank you for having us.

So I would love to hear your story and also what you will share about cross-cultural couples and As I said, when we were introducing each other earlier, I've been fascinated with cross-cultural couples and at a distance.

Yes.

I think that a lot has been written about cross-cultural teams and cross-cultural communication and potentially also a little bit about families and couples, but not necessarily with a distance. So there's 2 elements I'd like to— 2 lenses I'd like this show to see through. The first one is the distance. So anything we say today and all our conversation will be useful for people at a distance, but also obviously under the same roof.

Yes.

And secondly, is faith-based, right? You are Christian authors and you openly speak about how your faith, um, consolidates and helps your marriage and, and encourages it. So what would you say to listeners about maybe those 2 lenses from your experience and, and what you'd like to share today.

Okay, do you want to go?

Okay, uh, well, I can share a little bit about, um, our story. Uh, I grew up in small-town Kansas, and Pesa grew up in Kenya, and he actually attended college in the town where I'm from. And when he graduated, we both began working at the same place, and we hit it off really well. And as we were dating, we really didn't have a lot of issues come up as far as, you know, communication or anything like that. But then after we got married, that is when we started to notice— we started to hit a few roadblocks. at that point. We started realizing how different our backgrounds really were and just how different our expectations were, um, even down to the smallest details like what we wanted to have for dinner. Um, we had very different taste in food, um, and then that was also when we started to notice our differences in communication.

Yes.

You know, we would, we would actually misunderstand each other Quite a bit, or we would misinterpret what the other one said. You know, we would assume that, you know, we were being insulted, and then a lot of irritation and conflict actually came from that.

Yes. You know, where I was raised, we— there's this idea that you need to be direct in everything you're saying because there's a lot of people in one household, and just to get your point across, you need to be more direct. Now Whitney, on the other side, she comes from a place where they are more likely to what I would call beat around the bush, so not be very clear.

Yeah.

With what she's saying. And that, at first it was fine. I thought it was very interesting. It was, uh, like, like this just builds up the curiosity trying to find out what's going on. But eventually when we got married, now that something that was very interesting and exciting now becomes very annoying because I had that assumption that if you want to tell me something, just tell me.

Yes.

Oh, that became a big fight, right?

Right. I think I was definitely more quiet and more easily offended Um, and, you know, and Pesa would wonder, okay, well, I'm just talking, you know, what's the problem? What's wrong with that?

Yes.

And so, yeah, there were 2 very, very different styles, that's for sure.

Were you living in the US when you, you got— are you— you're in the US now?

Yes.

Yes.

Right. And then you were in the US at the beginning of your marriage. What, what do you think changed from dating to marriage?

Well, I think definitely, um, during our dating stage, we were just so like infatuated with one another, and we were just— the time that we spent together during that phase was all about having fun.

Right.

But then after we got married and actually started living together, that's when real life started. I mean, we started dealing with, you know, just the logistics of getting through the day. Cooking, laundry, just being under one roof with someone. I mean, there's just a lot of planning. There's just a lot of life that happens at that point. And so that's when we started to kind of butt heads a little bit.

And when you add this extra layer of somebody is from a different culture, you don't really think about it until now. The things that you assumed were real or they were supposed to happen, they are not what she, she thinks of. Like, for example, when it comes to holidays, I came from a place where holidays were not only a big deal but were a big family affair. So not only cousins, brothers, like a lot of people show up for one holiday. She believes in just the nuclear family.

Okay.

That doesn't sound a problem until I have invited all these friends and she's feeling very drowned out.

Yes.

And what is so great to me, to her is the worst experience ever. And I'm so oblivious, not even knowing that this is the worst thing to her because she's not clear. She's not telling me, but at the same time, I'm not emotionally connected to the point that I can understand where what is going on in my own marriage because I wasn't— the idea of being emotionally connected was not even a thing for me. It's just, yeah.

Yes, interesting. I think that's a very interesting point because I think sometimes the direct indirect, sometimes people may know that one, but the emotional connection That's one. Would you say some cultures make more importance to that or learn it more? What would you say that it's about?

I think some cultures pay a lot of attention to the emotional connection and also the feelings. How do you feel? How did that make you feel? And if you are coming from a culture where you are not trained on the concept, this feeling aspect, and you are mostly about survival, mostly about survival and mostly about either providing or getting things, but it's mostly physical. When the concept of, yes, you have all the physical things you want, but you still did not give me the emotional connection can be very unnerving because I don't even know there was something else that I needed to provide, which is having that connection emotionally.

So did at one point, did you have a conversation about that? How did you identify all these different elements? Was it like every time something would pop up, maybe multiple times you would figure it out, or did it take you a long time to realize, oh wait, we're actually different on this issue?

Um, I think it actually took us a long time to figure out some of these things. Um, and the example that he gave of wanting to have a lot of friends and a lot of extended family around, um, that was an issue because if, if I did express that I was somewhat overwhelmed, you know, having all these people around, I think he sort of took offense to it. And really, I think there were times when he believed that I did not want all these people around. And, you know, so it was, I think we just, we took offense to a lot of these different views on things that we had.

And just to add on that, for me, what really hit home was, When around the time when our third daughter was born, at that time I was really feeling that I'm such a great husband and I was working 6 nights. So basically 2 to 11 and then 11 to 7. So basically 6 nights every week to provide for my family. And because I had so many of my friends who are doing the same thing, I felt very proud that I'm sure that my family is well taken care of. The word is here financially. My wife can stay at home with the kids and she doesn't need anything. Not knowing, so at that time she's had a baby. She's having a little bit of postpartum depression, which I did not know.

She's saying, you know what, I'm ready to leave. I can't live like this. You are never home. I'm ready to leave. Bring me the papers. I'll sign them. And I thank God that at that time something happened with me because I was able to pause. Most of the time when she brought up these issues, I would just think she was very ungrateful and she was not seeing how much I was sacrificing for the family.

And like, I just knew I was doing the right thing and she was being ungrateful because how would you not see how much I'm sacrificing for this family? But, and also my friends were doing the same thing, so we were just egging, like, just edging each other on, like, we need to work more, we need to work more. As long as we are young, we need to make as much money as we can and make sure that our family is set for life, not knowing that there was something that I was ignoring. So anyway, she's— my wife is like, okay, I'm ready to sign, give me the papers, I'll sign. And It hit me, and that's when I really paused and I started listening because I was able to understand that as much as I'm working and doing the right thing, I'm about to lose my family. And I was able to start listening. And that's when I started this journey of being able to understand that there's another version of life, which is you need to also be there emotionally. But at the same time, what you think is right might not be what somebody else thinks is right, even if you have the best of intentions. And I had a lot of great intentions.

She didn't feel it. She didn't feel like I was doing the right thing at that time.

That is so important what you're saying. And I think this is where couples who are at a distance because of work, this is relevant. Because whoever's gone working, they're thinking, I'm sacrificing time with my family. You were gone all this, you know, all the evenings you were gone, probably many, many, many hours. You say, I'm sacrificing this time. And then the other person doesn't feel like they're— you know, it's what you were saying about you think you're doing it right, they think you— you know, they have a different version of what's right. And so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's so relevant to any couple really, and I think many, many couples who live at a distance, this can maybe come even faster because you, you don't— you're not under the same roof. So taking what you were saying about taking that time to pause and to listen and to say, okay, I need to connect emotionally, and at a distance you probably need to multiply that even more to make that emotional connection.

So how do you make an emotional connection when you haven't learned how to do that?

So for me, I thank God that we started going to our local church. That really helped because the small groups really helped.

And the small group for couples.

Yeah, small groups for couples.

Right.

Really helped. So also start doing date nights. We've been doing, I think, 11 or 12 years now.

Oh, it's going on 15.

15. Okay. So 15 years now. And so the date nights become— this is something that we have realized, that you have to schedule some of these things into your calendar. So connection time, which is our date night, and now we even call it date day. We just came from one before we jumped on this call. date nights or date days are very important if you have them on the calendar, because what you are doing, you are showing that you have connection as part of some— as something very important for you.

if you just wait for life to pause and then you have that date day or date night, I don't think it will ever happen. It never— because there were some days we would even go And we would be arguing all the time in the car as we are going there, but we still believe it was so important to show up. And thank God we did, because it started building this new skill that being connected and showing up for date nights and date days were very important. Yes.

Right. And yeah, so that emotional connection, I think we learned it simply by trying to do it. By actually trying to make it happen. Because as he said, a lot of those early date nights, we would fight through the whole thing. But we were trying though. We were trying to make it happen.

And to understand each other. Is that how you would explain emotional connection?

Absolutely. And so I think what really helped us was just by going ahead and Setting that quality time on our calendar. I think that's really what did it.

Yes. And, and just at that time, I really didn't appreciate how important that was, that we left the home. We told the kids when we are dropping off the kids, they knew we are going for date night. And then even if we were arguing and we are not feeling like up to it, we still left. And we would maybe go to Barnes Noble because there's a lot of people there, and we— that will help us just change our mind because we'll sit there, we are walking around Barnes Noble, that takes our anger down. And then gets us ready now to go to the restaurant. And there are some times I would even tell younger couples right now that just because you, you don't feel like it, uh, figure out a way to look at the big picture. You still don't want to have this argument or this divorce.

So find a way to still go because eventually once you get this new skill of having quality time with your spouse, you will have learned something very important because after a while, what you thought was an important fight, it's not that important.

Yeah. So repair is a buzzword right now, right? You're supposed to repair. People say that couples who stay together are those who repair. So Do you, did you repair differently or basically, or bids for repair? Isn't that bids for repair?

Yes.

That's what it's called.

Yeah. There was a lot of repair going on, especially at that time.

And we, and we still do them up to today.

Still do.

Yes.

Yeah.

So some, like, give an example.

Um, so for example, um, just as he had mentioned, if, if we were arguing out on the date, one of us, usually him, I think he was more mature, he would, you know, make that repair attempt and say, okay, hey, let's— why don't we just enjoy the next couple hours? You know, tell you what, why don't we just have fun?

And then we'll—

maybe we can revisit this issue later. Maybe we can just talk about this later. And I think that really helped.

Yeah.

I honestly do. Yeah, because we were able to have a good time.

Yeah, and sometimes even just for the husbands listening to this, you might just maybe make a joke, apologize.

Oh yes, I'm recording. Oh man, I thought I'd forgotten to press record. Carry on.

Okay, so for the husband listening to this, I think one of the Things that has really helped me when it comes to repair is being more agreeable. So like, there's, there's a way a couple argues all the time, and if you can distract, like, you can move away from that by just being more agreeable. If you feel like you are being attacked, sometimes you can say, you know, I see your point, I really see your point, so I'll start working on that right now, or I'll start doing something just in a way to deflect that huge argument that you're about to have. And you can even— sometimes your wife might be like, oh, you know what, I don't think it's that important because now he really agrees with what I'm saying. But if it's the constant, the constant back and forth, nobody will win because one is right, the other one is right, and nobody is breaking the— what is it? The impasse?

Is it a stalemate?

The stalemate. Nobody's breaking the stalemate. Yeah, somebody has to break it.

Yes, I must say, I don't know if you and my husband have talked, but he's definitely begun doing that. And it's definitely also helping our repair attempts.

Yeah.

But you see this again, if we're looking at it through the lens of distance, it's totally feasible. If someone is having a fight on the phone and arguing about something, you can totally say, listen, why don't we just talk about, have a bit of fun? Why don't we just kind of talk about what we want to do when I next come? And when we can revisit this? Or you can say exactly what you were saying, like, okay, well, I get your point. I get— and those are all super feasible as well, um, on, on, on a phone if, if, uh, if something comes up. And because often on a phone what happens is you put the phone down, right? And then you're no longer in that conversation. So I think also important to, to flag that. But those are really, um, useful, um, sentences to have as well.

Sometimes, just not to cut you off, sometimes, um, what I do, like we might be, uh, having a disagreement and it's on the phone and I'm maybe somewhere else. And I can just, as we are talking, I can just look at the pictures we have on the phone. And if maybe one we are doing a selfie, I can send it like as a text message. And then as we are talking, she will get the text and she doesn't know who's sending. And then she'll see, oh my God, it's me. I just sent the picture, which is in a way just to, to take her back to that moment where we were taking that picture. So emotionally, she's— we're in an argument. Emotionally, she's sent back to a place where we were happy and we took that selfie.

That's great. Take it down a notch.

Great tip. Great tip. Okay. Slight, slight turn in the conversation. What about 2 topics that come up? I think in every marriage is in-laws, extended family, and money. So I'm assuming— I mean, in-laws, extended family, there can be criticism or support or, you know, and different family cultures have different expectations of how you're supposed to listen to extended family. So what— I'm curious to hear what you want to share about that. And then money, again, Uh, I mean, where we were at a distance, um, well, he's done Monday to Friday, he's done multiple weeks at a time, he's done— we've done months at a time.

And, um, money, we've basically— I took over paying the bills, right? So I was— and, and it's now that we're back together that we're having— so he was making the money, I was spending it and managing it. And then I even bought a house and he didn't even see it. But now we're back together, I'm like, oh, we have to wait, wait, do I need to double-check with him? Because before, I, I, there was so many things I didn't double-check because he's, he's not available, so I would just be used to handling it.

Yeah.

So I don't know, I, those are two, but you know, same thing, they're the ones that maybe come up a lot for, for couples in general, but also cross-cultural couples.

So for when it comes to—

Big topics.

So everything, we always look at it from the lens of united front, which— and when we talk about united front, we basically mean that we are not saying we are not arguing, or we are not saying that we don't disagree. We are saying that we will have that private time to have this conversation first. And then when the in-laws hear the story, or the children, which is very important because sometimes the children will be shopping parents. If they know you are divided, they will be shopping and saying, I want to talk to mom because I know mom will say yes. Or if mom says no, I'll go to dad. So, but if they know that they'll always get the same answer from either mom or dad, they don't do that shopping. So we believe like even when it comes to in-laws, have the conversation first before we make a decision. So if it's her mom, my in-laws, if there's something that they want her to do, we will talk first.

Like for example, like when they are coming to visit.

Yeah, like so right now We live in a different state, so if a relative wants to come and visit, it's best if Tessa and I talk about it first.

Yes, to talk first. And I come from a place where helping family is very, very important. And we mean like, if they call for money, they call for— like, if you call for anything, it feels like if you don't say yes immediately, you are basically a bad kid, like a bad child, which is fine. But if you have a spouse coming from a place where the family budget is sacred and we make decisions together, now it becomes a problem. So we have found out the best ways, like especially for me, if I get those phone calls, I need to buy time and I say, okay, Let me either— I need to say I need to talk to my wife, or I say, you know, I'll pray about it, or I'll look, I'll check things around and I'll get back to you, so that I can go and have the conversation with Whitney, talk about it. And then now she knows what— most of the time she'll say yes, but at least she's given the benefit, the courtesy of knowing where the money is going instead of like looking at the bank statement. You're like, okay, what? What is it? So yeah, so having that connection first and having this conversation before, um, you go out and talk about it. And sometimes, uh, with, uh, these days with WhatsApp groups and, um, this communication, there's a lot of side conversations that can be had with family and extended family, especially when it comes to family decisions.

So I can belong in a family WhatsApp group, and in there conversations can be about maybe my wife, jokes can be made. But if I'm very clear from the get-go that I don't appreciate things like this, they will know that never to have those jokes around me. So I'm supporting her Even if she's not there.

Yeah, but yes, very important.

Very important because some people are afraid to disappoint their family, their family of origin. They'll say, you know what, blood is thicker than water. I need— I cannot really tell them that, you know, that's my uncle. If my wife leaves me, I need to go back to them because they still haven't really transferred that loyalty from that family of origin to the new family that they are building right now. And that lack of transfer becomes such a big problem. Or somebody saying, you know what, that's my mom. I cannot disappoint my mom. Yes, I know she's making fun of my wife, but you know, that's my mom.

You can never say no to her. Yes, you can. You can say, this is my— I respect you, mom, but still, this is my wife now. You cannot talk to her this way.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, that's a very good point. Yes.

Yeah.

Do you want to add anything, Whitney?

Um, yes. Also, we actually do have a personal story we can share about, um, the different expectations that, uh, my in-laws had when we were having our first baby. We could not agree on what to name the baby because in, uh, Pessa's family, they have a tradition of naming the kid after, you know, the grandma or the auntie or, or the uncle or whoever it is, whoever's turn it is. Um, and I had the expectation of choosing the baby's name myself.

Mm-hmm.

And so that was a major, major issue that, that we had. Um, and thank goodness we were able to compromise. um, Pessa said, okay, well, why don't you pick the baby's first name and then we'll go ahead and do a Swahili name, uh, for their middle name? And then so that's what we've done for all 4 of our girls. Um, but it— but when that was happening, you know, it was, it was a big deal. It was very, um, difficult for us to navigate through that because I think they weren't expecting somebody to just say, hey, I want to name my kid, you know, they thought it was going to go according to plan and so those are just some of the things that we've gone through.

And these are important things for couples, say they're dating now, to talk through, right, but then you have a big fight and then you're like, so then we're not meant to be together? No, you can still be together, it just would be useful to talk about it.

Yes, right, you can talk about it. And she's being very gracious. At that time in the hospital, it was such a big fight because we also had that time crunch. The nurses also wanted the name. So it's not just Baby X anymore. So they wanted the name. So we needed to come up with a name very quickly. And it just felt like everything had to happen so quickly.

So there was that urgency. My side of the family knew 100% what the name should be, and they were insisting. My wife also knew what the name should be. So I'm trying to juggle 2 groups of people. We were able to make it happen, but I can say in those situations, you cannot just give up. there's always a way to make it happen. And that actually shows how emotionally or just how mature you are in that situation because you're trying to balance 2 different sides and both of them seem to believe they are right.

Yes, we had that with our wedding preparations. We had completely different expectations. Our families had different expectations of their roles at the wedding. And so like, like we're having these major fights before getting married about which, you know, how to— but that could happen, you know, it's just 2 different family expectations, right? Sometimes.

Yes.

Um, so can you share a little bit more about the United Front, uh, audit that you have on your website so that couples who are maybe just starting to be together or those that have been together a long time and that, uh, maybe finding that they're fighting and they can't quit, they're always fighting about the things, but they can't quite figure out what it is, how they can use that. Maybe if you could say a little bit in the context of faith as well, for anybody here who's a believer, a Christian who follows the Christian faith, how it can be helpful. And then maybe, maybe say a few words for couples who are at distance, because— and how it could still be used by them. If you could just elaborate a little bit more on it. And what— and you— what you do.

Okay, uh, well, when they take the United Front audit, um, the first thing is it helps them review the areas where their marriage might appear to be the most vulnerable, things that they need the most help with at this time. And we think that really the results should not be used to blame one another for one spouse to blame the other. Really, they should use these things to identify, you know, where the pressure is coming from and if there's a pattern that might be working against their marriage. And they can choose maybe one issue to start with that they want to address and just basically have an honest conversation about it and just create maybe one agreement.

Mm-hmm.

In the beginning that they can start practicing right away. Maybe it might be a compromise, it might be whatever the thing is. If there's one thing that they can start doing right away, it can actually be a huge win for both of them.

So do they take it separately or do they take it together?

So they take it separately, and the score that you get, we just don't want it to be like, oh, you know, I got the score, but it's basically what we are trying to do is to help them know like, okay, these are the things that you need to work on so that you can become a stronger team. So a stronger team, because it's better to know that every time, every time your in-laws talk, anytime your in-laws talk about your spouse, this is how you act. and that's not really helping with your connection than for it to continue for years and years and years. And then you are still getting the resentment and you're still getting the fights at home, but you don't even know it's there. And also you don't know what to do to fix that issue.

Okay, so there's 5 dimensions, right?

Yes, yes.

There's 5 areas, and then you get your score and your spouse gets a score. Yes. And then you each work on your— and you can choose which area you can then both work on.

Yes. So everybody, you take it alone because not everybody, not each couple is ready to do it together. Sometimes there's always one person who's ahead of the— ahead. They're like, they're having more pain and they want to solve their pain. So they are the ones who start the process. So we are not saying like, okay, you are the one who started the process, you are better or worse. It's just like you're going through more pain and you need to fix that. It's like somebody having a headache and they need to take a pain pill.

Yes, they are the ones who are starting the process, but they can get more information from that. And now if their spouse wants to do it, that's great. But what they get, they can start changing themselves. Because sometimes you might wait and you are not becoming the light in your house. You are just— you're waiting for your spouse to change, and what's happening is you guys are still going through all these problems. But sometimes they need to see how life can be when somebody is doing— is handling the in-laws or handling the money issues differently. And then they are also, you know what, my wife has changed. You know what, I'm gonna try this thing what she's been talking about, instead of saying, you know, we have to do it together right now, and if we don't, we will stay the same.

Sometimes you just have to show the example.

Okay, okay. So is it only for Christians, or can anybody do it?

No, it's not. Anybody can do it. Yeah, anybody can do it.

Okay, and then the resources that you provide are faith-based?

Yeah, yeah, the resources are faith-based, faith-based. So, and that's where we are getting our, like, our philosophy, our background is the faith-based. But that does not mean you cannot— anybody cannot use the resource. We are not making sure that everybody has to be a Christian before they proceed. No, but you can. It's just like the Golden Rule. It's biblical-based But it can help anybody, right?

Okay.

Yes. Or loving your neighbor or things like that. Yes, you can get them from the Bible, but it's a good idea to love your neighbor.

Exactly. So it's a good idea to work on these 5 elements of your marriage. Yes. Okay. Is there anything that you wanted to add or anything we've missed out in this conversation? I'll put all your links in the show notes, but What would you say to a young couple starting out cross-culturally?

Yes, I would just tell them that to schedule, especially if they are far away from each other, please schedule these phone calls, these connection moments. Schedule them. Don't wait until you feel like you are ready to quote unquote call and let everybody know that every evening at 6 o'clock, Dad is calling, or every evening. Like, that way everybody like is getting ready for that moment. You might not feel like it because it's different in different time zones. You're about to go to bed, some people are getting up in a different time zone. But if they know before going to school, Dad will be calling every day, that can get this rhythm in their in both homes when you're abroad and the other one is here to make it that, you know what, we still have that connection. And then during the day, uh, I'm a big advocate of sending messages, texts, images, I love yous, um, voice notes, and just to con— to bring that connection.

Yes, because now in different parts of the world, unless you are an expat who's in a secret covert operation, most of them will still have a way to connect using WhatsApp and all that. So it's easy, much easier.

Yeah, and a cross-cultural marriage can work, right? You're the proof, we're the proof.

Yes, it can work. And, um, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I agree. I think, um, if couples can schedule quality time, if they can schedule those phone calls or video calls and it becomes part of their routine, then, um, I, I think that they'll have a much, much stronger connection.

Yeah, and, and also knowing that just because I'm the one carrying the heavy load of providing financially and I'm outside the country, she's also carrying the heavy load of keeping the family at home, like all the schedules, the kids, all the things at home. There are 2 different loads, but they are equally— they are basically 2 heavy loads. So don't put like one is more sacrifice than the other, because it feels so bad when somebody's diminished with all the craziness they are dealing with at home, somebody else to diminish what they are doing because they are the ones who went outside the country to work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yes, thank you so much. I will be pointing people your way. I'm curious, I might do the audit myself actually, see where we are 20 years in. But thank you so much for sharing from your life and your experience.

Thank you very much, Rona.

Thank you for having us.

Yes.