Children's author, award-winning graphic designer, and speaker Elke Thompson talks about confronting death through her own difficult experiences - and how she has become an expert about speaking to children about the big things in life.

Elke's website is here.

[00:00:00] Lee Walls: Welcome to this first ever episode of Brave Conversations. I'm speaking to the fabulous Elka Thompson. We are chatting about confronting death through her own difficult experiences. [00:00:20]

[00:00:20] Elke Thompson: To be confronted with your own mortality. I was given another chance, obviously, because I'm still here and I know many people don't get that chance.

[00:00:28] Lee Walls: Elka has become an expert in brave conversations of her own, particularly when it comes to speaking to children about the big things in life.

[00:00:39] Elke Thompson: [00:00:40] I'm very passionate about helping adults understand that it's really important to have honest conversations with children, especially when it gets very, very difficult.

[00:00:51] Elke Thompson: So, Elka, we met, is it 12 years ago now? It must be, uh, 12 years in July, I think.

[00:00:58] Lee Walls: Yeah, we met [00:01:00] 12 years ago when I went a wee bit off my head and had a body cast exhibition. Do you want to tell the listeners about that experience?

[00:01:13] Elke Thompson: To be fair, I don't really know anymore how we found each other, but I had been diagnosed with an aggressive breast [00:01:20] cancer and I was quite sort of open about it on Facebook, which was received in a bit of a mixed way, but I found lots of people who were just Providing such an amazing support and, you know, you being one of them because you offered to come to my house and do a body cast of pre and [00:01:40] post surgery and turn it into an exhibition.

[00:01:43] Elke Thompson: And I thought it was just such a wonderful, empowering experience. Um, not just because. of the experience itself, but because of people reaching out and wanting to make a difference and wanting to bring it into the open and start these difficult [00:02:00] conversations. So yeah, so I think the first time I met you, I took most of my clothes off, so that was fun.

[00:02:10] Lee Walls: It's, it's funny cause I've been talking recently that one of my My superpowers is getting people to get their kit off. [00:02:20] No. So we met, you had aggressive breast cancer. You were going for surgery. We did the exhibition and like you said, that was, that was actually a really joyful. moment in time. I know that lots of people were [00:02:40] really struggling, but I feel like we were able to bring a community together and that you were all able to support each other and have these big, bold conversations with each other and also to be able to lean on each other and get a bit of support, which was incredible from, [00:03:00] from, I found a lump that happened to be a lump that didn't need any treatment, but it spurred me on to, to create this exhibition.

[00:03:12] Lee Walls: And then we created a community of support. So yeah, so that was the exhibition. And then [00:03:20] from there, do you want to tell us about what happened next for you?

[00:03:24] Elke Thompson: Oh my God, what happened next? Um, I don't even know. Um, so I mean, cancer treatment was really, really difficult. I'd already been widowed when I was 34 and I had very young kids.

[00:03:35] Elke Thompson: Um, and I was 37 when I got a cancer diagnosis. So it, [00:03:40] it, it just felt a bit like a, blurred, to be honest, it was sort of grief on top of grief on top of grief. And so to then go through that diagnosis and to go through chemo and surgery and radiotherapy and 10 years of hormone treatment, um, it kind of, I don't know, it changed my priorities [00:04:00] from having to fix everything for everybody to looking a bit more.

[00:04:06] Elke Thompson: at myself. And I still struggle with that a little bit because to me, I struggle with the, well, with the differentiation between self care and being selfish. So [00:04:20] I think I was not, I was going to say, I think I was raised in such a way, but I think it's, it's, it's not been a conscious thing. I think my mum just, showed me by living what she thought she had to do, you know, which was very much, you know, be there for everybody and put herself [00:04:40] last.

[00:04:40] Elke Thompson: Um, so I kind of learned by watching and through this experience, it kind of, it became painfully obvious that You know, maybe there wasn't tomorrow. Maybe there wasn't, you know, I'll do it when the kids are a bit older or I'll do it then. It sounds weird, maybe, but it's such a beautiful experience to [00:05:00] be confronted with your own mortality in a way.

[00:05:04] Elke Thompson: I mean, I was given another chance, obviously, because I'm still here and I know many people don't get that chance. But in a way that tells you. there literally might not be a tomorrow. And when you've been through an experience like that, and through the sudden death of my husband, you really [00:05:20] understand how quickly life can change.

[00:05:22] Elke Thompson: And for me, the, the very long journey that I'm still in began off just sort of trying to follow my own path, obviously, while being mindful of others. And, you know, I still have. kids, but they're older now. My youngest is 16 and there's also five [00:05:40] stepdaughters. Um, so there's seven kids to be aware of. Um, but it's very much important to remember who you are and what you're showing your kids.

[00:05:49] Elke Thompson: Um, and I didn't want to repeat the mistake in my eyes. It's a mistake, the mistake my mom made, because do I want to show my kids that it's okay to forget all about yourself and it's [00:06:00] not. And yeah, I think it's very much about. What you show your kids in everything and how you grieve and how you deal with your emotions because they very much learn from watching what you're doing, not by reading or being told what they should be doing, that they just sit there and [00:06:20] they watch.

[00:06:20] Elke Thompson: And I think that's been a really big lesson. I don't know if that answered the question, but that's kind of what's been happening since my diagnosis.

[00:06:28] Lee Walls: That's a really interesting point about women and how we don't put ourselves first. It's like, I have loads of conversations with women who are supporting [00:06:40] actors in their own lives and everyone comes before they do.

[00:06:44] Lee Walls: And I think, You know, we've talked about this, but it's so important that you create time and space for yourself and are able to be your own person and live your own life whilst taking care of all the [00:07:00] people all the time. So, um, yeah, and there is a fine line, I think, between self care and selfish, and it's getting that right balance, isn't it?

[00:07:11] Elke Thompson: Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, so I'm working on it.

[00:07:14] Lee Walls: Yeah, I think we're all a work in progress, aren't we? So at the time that [00:07:20] we met, I think you were in the process of writing your first book.

[00:07:25] Elke Thompson: Yeah, my, my, as I just mentioned, um, I was widowed very young and my husband, who was also 34, he, He'd been away with our then three year old son, um, Alex, um, because they wanted to have some sort of [00:07:40] male bonding time.

[00:07:41] Elke Thompson: And I was at home with our daughter, Olivia, and, um, he basically just had a heart attack and, you know, he never came home. So I had to explain to my three year old and my 11 months old why daddy could never come back. And there was a time. where I thought, [00:08:00] right, my son's asking so many questions. I literally don't know what to say.

[00:08:03] Elke Thompson: So I'll go and get a book. Um, and there just wasn't one. And I couldn't understand why there wasn't a book explaining death to very young children, because, you know, there was, there was books on going to the dentist, there was books on divorce, and they're all really, really important, but so is death. [00:08:20] You know, it happens to all of us and it, maybe it's not daddy, maybe it's not mum, but you know, there'll be grandparents, there'll be pets.

[00:08:28] Elke Thompson: And at the time it just wasn't there. So I very quickly started writing the book and I thought I'll approach a publisher out there, got to go, Oh, thank goodness for this. We've been waiting on this work. [00:08:40] Oh, God. Yeah. Here it is. Book about death for children. Unfortunately, it wasn't like that. Because, you know, everybody gets a bit frightened when it comes to talking about death in general, nevermind talking about death to children, because, you know, we think it's going to [00:09:00] frighten them.

[00:09:00] Elke Thompson: And what I found Was that not knowing what is happening and imagining things in their head is actually more frightening than the truth. Um, so I decided very quickly, I'd just write this book, uh, yeah, which I did, but the publisher wouldn't want it. So I had to find a way to make it happen. And being a [00:09:20] graphic designer for me, you know, typesetting a book and printing wasn't a big deal.

[00:09:25] Elke Thompson: That's what I did day to day. So I commissioned an illustrator, um, to do the illustrations and I was really very happy with it. Um, but then, um, I got my cancer diagnosis. I was living with my boyfriend at the [00:09:40] time, who's now my second husband. Um, but I was so ill on chemo that he, in the end, after taking all the holidays he possibly could, paid and unpaid, he quit his job to look after these seven kids.

[00:09:51] Elke Thompson: Um, so the money that I put aside to publish this book, to self publish this book, went into day to day living. [00:10:00] So at the point where you met me, I was like, I have this amazing book about death for children, um, but I can't publish it. So I decided to crowdfund. Um, and this is going to get me really emotional because I needed so much money.

[00:10:16] Elke Thompson: I needed something like 12, 000 pounds. Um, [00:10:20] and I thought, um, This is crazy, like no one's going to give money to make this book happen and how wrong I was, because again, there was so much support. Um, I put up this crowdfunding page and the money was there within days, but it wasn't just the [00:10:40] money. It was people started sending me presents.

[00:10:42] Elke Thompson: They started sending me head scarves and they started sending me jewelry and big earrings. And, you know, I always remember there was. A few children actually, and they drew me pictures. I'd never met these kids. They drew me pictures and they said, um, I really hope you get well again, Ilka, because [00:11:00] I want to see this book about this little boy whose daddy died just like mine had.

[00:11:05] Elke Thompson: And that gives me so much strength. And I think it's so important to understand we really genuinely help. our kids by being honest and by showing them how to, how to grieve, [00:11:20] um, and, and how to deal with conflict. You know, it's the same thing. Just show them how to deal with emotions. If you tell them it's okay to cry and then you run upstairs and shut the door and hide yourself under your pillow because you're sad, they know, and then they have all these mixed messages.

[00:11:39] Elke Thompson: So [00:11:40] that book happened, um, and the response was amazing. I remember, I remember getting all these books delivered to my house and I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. And I opened them and I was like, Oh no, what have I done? And, uh, but I had to send them out because that was part of my crowdfunding deal.

[00:11:57] Elke Thompson: And the feedback was just [00:12:00] incredible. You know, people sent me pictures of the kids literally being asleep on the book and they said they must've had a bad dream and they got up again and, and used that as a cuddly toy, um, so to speak. So then I wrote another one which explains what happens after death because those were all the questions that kind of came six months later, you know, what happened to daddy's body?

[00:12:19] Elke Thompson: Um, and that's [00:12:20] exactly what that book is called. Um, so it seemed to make sense to write one about breast cancer as well, which I did. which is called, Is it still okay to have cuddles? Um, and this book, this is, this book's very much us, our story and all the books that I've written are based [00:12:40] on the actual questions that my children asked at the time.

[00:12:43] Elke Thompson: And. You know, so many people told me, oh, they won't, they won't remember because they're so young and they won't understand. But there was my three year old son asking me things like, how many more sleeps until Christmas? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. 167. And then he looks at me and he goes, and how many more sleeps [00:13:00] until I have to die, mommy?

[00:13:02] Elke Thompson: And I was like, you do understand. You just need a little bit of help. I wrote this book about breast cancer. I also wrote a book about breast cancer where mommy dies because to me it was very important to show both outcomes. However, [00:13:20] I have been completely unable to either source funding or interest or anything of people wanting to even look at this book.

[00:13:30] Elke Thompson: And, you know, it's taken me a long time to understand that that is even more of a taboo subject. You know, if someone dies. [00:13:40] That has happened. That's in the past and you have to deal with it. You have to explain it. But if someone is actively dying, you don't want to talk about it. You can't chat about that.

[00:13:48] Lee Walls: Yeah.

[00:13:49] Elke Thompson: No, but, you know, and, and I understand it's not, it's not all about, you know, being sad and grieving, but it's very much about [00:14:00] living, but how do we integrate those two things? And

[00:14:06] Elke Thompson: I just really wish we'd talk about it because I interviewed a lot of families where that has happened and what I found was, That I thought they would have made, you know, memories, they would have made, I don't know, photo books [00:14:20] and, and written letters and all these things that you hear about on social media.

[00:14:23] Elke Thompson: Yeah. And what I found was that about 90, at least 90 percent of those families didn't because when there was time and they were well enough, they didn't want to think about it. They pushed it away.

[00:14:36] Lee Walls: And

[00:14:36] Elke Thompson: then all of a sudden the deterioration was so quickly and so [00:14:40] dramatically that the time wasn't there.

[00:14:43] Elke Thompson: So, you know, my, my book, Encourages people to make these memories without, without actually using the word memories because that was a word that really jarred with me after my diagnosis, you know, that, cause that to me just said, you are already [00:15:00] dead. Yeah, it's about living life, isn't it Elka? It is. And, you know, a lot of people live.

[00:15:07] Elke Thompson: with cancer. Um, and I had this conversation with my oncologist and he says, you know, it's, it's, I mean, it's not curable, incurable cancer is obviously not curable, but a lot of people live very well [00:15:20] with it. And there's this perception, which I found myself, you tell someone, Oh, hi, I've got cancer. And they kind of go, Oh, right.

[00:15:25] Elke Thompson: Okay. Bye then. Don't do that. That's just rude. You know, I struggled with this already. Um, yeah. So yeah, I think we need a lot more open conversations and a lot more brave conversations and. You know, I'm so [00:15:40] grateful to be on here to share my story and I'm even more grateful for you to keep pushing to have these Brave Conversations because it's so important and it makes such a big difference.

[00:15:51] Lee Walls: Yeah, Elka. I think listening to you reflecting on the books and how they come about, it's like, well, for starters, you are the [00:16:00] master of the Brave Conversation and, and you probably started it, but it is so critical that we talk about the big things and that we have the opportunity to be 100 percent ourselves and we don't have to hide away that, like, you're a widow, that you had cancer.

[00:16:19] Lee Walls: [00:16:20] And I remember when we had the exhibition, speaking to lots of people about their experience of that. And they talked about the sympathy face, you know, people would be like, oh, and then, you know, There wasn't, there was no joy left in the world and it was like, [00:16:40] I remember somebody saying it was like the air was being sucked out the room all the time.

[00:16:44] Lee Walls: And actually we can have, we can have brave conversations about death that don't have to be negative and terrifying and they're just real. They're talking about the real things and of course your book about breast cancer, everybody [00:17:00] wants to know if we're allowed to still have cuddles.

[00:17:04] Elke Thompson: Yeah. And, you know, I think that to me was such a big deal because my granddad, um, had lung cancer when I was 13 and.

[00:17:13] Elke Thompson: I remember my mom saying, Oh, let's go and visit him in hospital. And even though I was 13, nobody had told me that [00:17:20] cancer wasn't contagious. And I didn't know. And I was absolutely terrified in case I caught cancer. And you know, it sounds a bit silly, but, um, We can assume that we know what goes on in children's heads and to create a room where it's safe to ask a question, where it's [00:17:40] safe, you know, to say how you feel and to not be laughed at or to be taken seriously, that's such an important gift to our children.

[00:17:51] Elke Thompson: Um, and I wish people would understand and also, you know, if you don't know an answer or you're not quite ready to say the answer, it's okay to say, [00:18:00] I don't know right now, but I'll get back to you. And for now, you know, do you want a hug? Because hugs to me just actually make everything a lot better, even the things you can't fix.

[00:18:11] Lee Walls: Yeah, absolutely. I think as well, um, All of your books that you've published are great conversation aids for [00:18:20] sitting and reading that with, because I remember when, when I got my copy of the book because I was part of the crowdfunding, I remember sitting in the garden with Erica on a really sunny day, reading it, we're both in floods of tears, but we were able to have a big, brave conversation [00:18:40] about death and we are all going to die.

[00:18:42] Lee Walls: It's inevitable that that's going to happen to us. But you can also say, you know, fingers crossed that's not going to be for a very long time, but it just opens the door to have bold conversations with your children and allow them to ask all the questions [00:19:00] that I don't want to ask my mummy about this because this might upset her.

[00:19:04] Lee Walls: And if you're sitting down and you're reading that book, what a gift that is.

[00:19:08] Elke Thompson: No, that, that means a lot. And, you know, it's feedback I've, I've had a lot. I remember this cause these have been translated into German as well. Um, but I remember a little boy, 10 year old boy emailing me from [00:19:20] Germany saying, Oh, my counselor showed me this book cause my dad just died.

[00:19:24] Elke Thompson: And he said, I actually, I ran home and I told my mom about it and we ordered it straight away. And then when it came, we sat on the sofa and we read it together and I didn't feel so alone anymore. And I think that's another really important thing, you know, in these [00:19:40] situation, I think we can quite often feel or similar situations, we can quite often feel like we're the only people in the world this has happened to.

[00:19:47] Elke Thompson: And if more people stood up and said, this happened to me and it's not just about death. It's not just about cancer. It's about. all these big conversations to you. That happened to me. Let's talk about it. It's okay. You know, you're not, you know, [00:20:00] alone, you're, you're not wrong. You know, you're not disgusting, whatever it is, this is happening to people.

[00:20:07] Elke Thompson: And if we all just stood there and said, yeah, I hear you. I feel you. I understand. And talked about it, we'd all feel more supported and I think we'd all feel more whole [00:20:20] and, and held. And that's a beautiful thing. Um, that reminds me of something else. Cause I remember being on a, on the young widows forum, which wasn't my thing at all.

[00:20:30] Elke Thompson: You know, this whole internet thing, I'm kind of like a book touchy feely kind of girl. Um, I, I couldn't, I didn't know anybody else who'd been widowed so young. So I found these people and there were [00:20:40] people who were still in the forum. So four years later, and I remember thinking, Oh my God, you're still alive.

[00:20:47] Elke Thompson: Four years later. I can't even think beyond the next hour, nevermind tomorrow. And that gave me so much strength. And you know, I try and be there for people and say, look, my husband died. [00:21:00] 15 years ago. Wow. He did actually, he died 15 years ago and so many beautiful things have happened. And you know, all my books end in, it's okay to be sad, but it's okay to be happy too.

[00:21:12] Elke Thompson: And that's so important to me to say. You don't need to feel guilty for still being alive. You don't need to feel guilty for [00:21:20] loving and laughing and feeling joy. Um, there's nothing to fix. You're not wrong. You know, people don't think you're happy because all these horrible things happen to you. You know, you're just happy because you're alive.

[00:21:32] Elke Thompson: And that's such a gift. And I think that's kind of, to go full circle. I think that's kind of where I'm now sort of [00:21:40] stepping out of this whole death conversations and cancer conversations. Just saying, look, there's so much beauty, not even on the other side, because there isn't another side. There's just so much beauty still everywhere.

[00:21:53] Elke Thompson: You know, and this, this hole in your heart, this will always be there. Um, but it will, but just make the world [00:22:00] around it bigger. And you've got to write To be happy with bits of sadness in it, and that's fine, but it doesn't have to take over.

[00:22:11] Lee Walls: So that, that's Such an interesting point that, like, we have conversations fairly regularly in our house about death [00:22:20] and, um, our dead loved ones, because I think by talking about people you keep them alive, but we talk about the passage of time and how it heals, and actually it doesn't, you just learn to live with it, and and like you said, you grow around that hole, and I think that's A really fabulous way to describe that, but [00:22:40] actually the point that you're making about we're allowed to live, we're allowed to love, we're allowed to be happy.

[00:22:47] Lee Walls: These are really, really important messages for everyone to keep hold of, but particularly for children.

[00:22:53] Elke Thompson: Yeah, I think that's true. What does brave mean to you? [00:23:00] Being authentic and showing up and speaking your truth. Being honest with yourself and being honest with everybody else. And I've had a lot of feedback from people saying, Oh, you know, you're so strong and I've always kind of dismissed it.

[00:23:17] Elke Thompson: I was like, no, I, you know, I fall down [00:23:20] just like the rest of us. I have days where I can barely lift my head, but I think bravest to stand up, not despite of it all, but maybe because of it all, or maybe just stand up, just stand up and try again. I think that's brave to just say, do you know what? This has all happened, but [00:23:40] this minute.

[00:23:41] Elke Thompson: This moment, I'm still here. I've still got a chance to be happy. I've still got a chance to make a difference. You know, let's do it.

[00:23:50] Lee Walls: Fabulous.

[00:23:55] Lee Walls: To finish off Elcalf, what's the best advice that you can give to our listeners? [00:24:00] Wow.

[00:24:04] Elke Thompson: It would be, it's okay to be sad, but it's okay to be happy too. Don't dwell on all the bad things for too long. Um, just open your eyes to all the beautiful things and what really helped me. Back in my darkest days was to make a list of all the [00:24:20] things that I like doing.

[00:24:22] Elke Thompson: And I had a, I won't call it a bucket list because I called it a to do list, and I wrote down all the things that I wanted to do. And there were little things like have a bath, because even that seemed impossible at times, but there were also big things like walk a marathon and go to Iceland [00:24:40] and, you know.

[00:24:41] Elke Thompson: walk along the Great Wall of China and to just have that on the fridge. A few years later, I realized I'd actually done quite a lot of them. The Great Wall of China is still on my list, but other than that, I've ticked off quite a few and that's a beautiful thing.

[00:24:58] Lee Walls: Elka, how do we [00:25:00] find you and your books?

[00:25:03] Elke Thompson: I've got a website. It's elkathompson. com, so E L K E Thompson with a P dot com and there's actually links to my Insta. I'm on Facebook, but everything you'll find on my website and you'll find me from there. So

[00:25:17] Lee Walls: thank you so much.[00:25:20]

[00:25:22] Lee Walls: Elka's talked today a lot about her books and all of that information is available in the show notes. I hope you've been as inspired by my guest as I have been and you're able to have some big, bold, brave [00:25:40] conversations of your own. If you loved the episode, please leave a 5 star review, share with a friend and tell them what you liked about it, and subscribe so you never miss an episode.

[00:25:52] Lee Walls: Until next time, take care.[00:26:00]