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Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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064: Creating connection and conversation amongst seasoned military spouses with Jennifer Pasquale

Jennifer “Jen” Pasquale is a former corporate trainer and business consultant turned busy-at-home mom to her two kiddos, and a first-time dog mom! After 16 years of military life, Jen is passionate about creating connection and conversation among military spouses entering that final season of military spouse life and are finding it a bit harder than expected.

Connect with Jen on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-pasquale-14460832/ Facebook/Instagram @prideandgrit, Twitter @prideandg or visit her website https://www.prideandgrit.com/

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Jen Amos 0:00

Welcome to holding down the fort, a podcast show dedicated to curating knowledge, resources and relevant stories for today's military spouses so they can continue to make confident and informed decisions for themselves and their families. Because let's face it, we know who's really holding down the fort. I'm Jen a Moe's, a gold star, daughter, veteran spouse and your host for holding down the fort by us that wealth. Let's get started.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of holding down the fort. I am your co host, Jenn Amos, and with me today I also have my other co host, Jenny Lynch troupe. Gentlemen, welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:47

Hi, welcome. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Oh, always. And

Jen Amos 0:51

I wanted to share this both with you. By the time this recording comes out. This will have already been announced. So I just wanted to share for the first time in this recording that our show actually was nominated for an award months ago or weeks ago now by the Rosi network to be the potential media professional of the year. And I want to share that we won. So you both are now part of an award winning podcast. So check this out. Here's the size or the cPanel. Yeah, I'll take a picture and send it to you Jennylyn. But yeah, so you guys are part of an award winning podcast now. So congratulations. And I just want to thank you, gentlemen, for having been part of the journey so far. And I think that with this award, it'll attract more people to listen to the show and just amplify our stories. So thank you for being a part of the journey. And but yeah, I just thought I'd share that. And just thought I'd ask you, Jenny Lynn, how has this journey? You know, being on the show has been like for you so far.

Speaker 1 1:54

Oh, man, this is like the best eyes. So enjoy having conversations with you and other people who are military affiliated. Quick, funny story. I just read upstairs between my last meeting in this. And my kids were like, What are you about to do? And I said, record a podcast. They're like, you're on a podcast? And I said, Yeah, like two or three times a week. I mean, this is not not a new conversation at our house. And so they were both like, really? And I said, Yeah, you know, if you go to iTunes, like you can look it up. And they're like, Huh, that's so weird. Like, where do you what are you doing? And so I got to explain, like I was doing and they were both my kids are nine and almost 11. And they were both just in awe of the fact that like, I'm on a podcast because that's like something other people do. And so it still feels like that. For me. It seems like something other people do. And I'm just so honored to like, be a part of this. So

Jen Amos 2:47

yeah, Mama's famous. That's probably what they're thinking now. Yeah, and now you can brag to them that you are part you're hosting a award winning podcast, I totally will rub it in. Awesome. Well, you know, with that said, genuine part of the reason why we do this show, as you mentioned, is to be able to feature some incredible individuals in our community. So I want to go ahead and bring on our guest today. We have Jennifer paths Squall, also known as Jen. So we have three gems in this conversation right now. So Jen is a former corporate trainer and business consultant turned busy at home mom with her two kiddos. She also is a first time dog mom. After 16 years in military life, Jen is passionate about creating connection and conversation among military spouses entering that final season of military spouse life and finding it a bit harder than expected. Jen, welcome to the show.

Unknown Speaker 3:44

Thank you. I'm happy to be here with both of you.

Jen Amos 3:46

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about just that final part that you mentioned the final season of a military spouse life, because very often, and I know you had mentioned this in your notes, and even I think for myself, when we think about military families, we probably think about, I would even think in genuine situation where you know, she's probably like halfway through the service, and she has a family to take care of, but not often do you think about the spouse that's about to be in the final season, and in this case transitioning out? So tell us a little bit about that season for you if that's the situation you are in now or not. And why is it so important for you to talk about? You know, that's the big timeframe?

Speaker 2 4:26

Yeah, I think like for us, so I've been like I said, you know, 16 years in military life, and we're not necessarily in a transitioning phase. And I think that's part of what becomes interesting and challenging is that, like for us for a long time, it was the 20 year mark, right? That was the mark on the wall. And that's like, you know, I joke about like the invisible calendar or that somewhere circled saying this is when we get to hang all this up. And then what I think is somewhat I wouldn't say common, but it definitely happens where you get to 16 and 17. And you go well, I don't know if it's really a hard stop at 20 or is it a 21? Or is it a 22? Or is it 30? Like, you know, what does that look like? And so it's like this constantly shifting goal, if you will, that becomes really fluid. Because it's really, you know, once you get past 20, I think there is this, this sort of ownership and the decision that comes in, that's really helpful, you kind of feel a little bit more in control of your sort of destiny if you choose to stay. But I think for a lot of people, it's still kind of a weird time, because there isn't always that magic moment where you're going to know for certain that in two years from this point, we are absolutely going to hang up our hat, you know, maybe it's that clean for some people, but certainly for myself and my peers, it doesn't kind of look that way. So the transition piece is a little more challenging, because you almost don't know when to start, because you don't really know exactly where the endpoint is.

Jen Amos 5:48

Yeah, so it sort of sounds like you're in this limbo state. And it's like, you have an option to stay or you could go, but you're like, you don't have a certain decision on it yet. So you're just like, what do you do in the meantime?

Speaker 2 6:02

Speaker 1 7:06

I think what you said is spot on, like, as a military spouse, I know, I've found myself having to figure out what my turn look like at every duty station every two to three years figuring out what season I was in, and what season my husband was in, and we very much are. So he's been in 14 years, we've been married for almost 12 of them. And, you know, I kind of have that same mindset, like, we get halfway, we get all the way to 20, then I'll do what I want. And, you know, I'm very fortunate in that I actually have a job now that I really love and doing this podcast is also something I really love, and something I never thought I would get to do. But it's because of my husband's military service that I've been able to connect with the current job I have now and this podcast, you know, that's kind of opened up a different like, well, you know, maybe we could stay in 25 or 30. I don't know, like, I don't know what's going to open up, you know, at our next duty station, or how I'll get to reinvent. And so for me, being a military spouse has been like a constant form of reinvention. I've pretty much done it all, from stay at home to work outside the home to work inside the home to work inside the home, because there's pandemic to, you know, all the things. Yeah, that's one of

Speaker 2 8:23

the really cool oh, sorry, I was just gonna say, I think it's one of the really cool things that happens is that, you know, what military life does provide is that opportunity that you can really reinvent. And you can really try things that you might not have normally sort of dipped your toe in because it works for that particular season. And sometimes you find it something you really, really enjoy. And you would have, you know, potentially not figured that out, had you not been forced to do that reinvention step. And it's one that's exhausting. But there are often a lot of really cool things that come from that process.

Jen Amos 8:55

Yeah, that reminds me of a military child. Well, now she's a young adult, who really lived the full 20 plus years, I believe, of being a military child, and how she shared like, it was so awesome that every new duty station, I was able to reinvent myself, but then by the time we settled somewhere, and I was trying to understand who I really was, I realized that I left so many parts of myself in different parts of the world, and I don't really know who I am entirely. So as fun as it is to reinvent yourself, just like what you said, Jen, it could also be really exhausting to do that. And then also, if you settled somewhere, it's like, okay, who am I now? You know, and, and I think that's a struggle that a lot of our military families can completely understand.

Speaker 2 9:38

And one of the things I've kind of heard from my peers as well, is that to your point, right, if you've done that so many times, and at some point, it can get exhausting, and you can sort of get to that point where you go, Okay, now professionally, who am I? What is my professional identity? What is my personal identity? Do I feel really grounded in either of those? And I find a lot of folks sort of more by stage, if you will, in that, you know, 18 to 22 going, Okay, wait a minute, I don't know what my turn looks like. And I don't even know how to take the step to figure that out, because I've done it so many times. And I've tried so many things, that I'm sort of, I'm kind of exhausted at that. And so I've had that conversation with a lot of my peers, where they're like, you know, I really, I want to figure out what that looks like, I just don't quite know how to start that, again, for what feels like could be the kind of final time before it now becomes what I do outside of military life.

I think there's a lot to be said for, you know, as military spouse, we're also kind of trained to be like, perpetual volunteers. I know that part of what I do in every duty station is volunteer for whatever spouse organization or command organization there is. And that has created a different dynamic for trying to figure out who I am because it's Can I hang up the volunteer hat for a little bit to do something that I love professionally? Or is there a way to balance those orders, volunteering lead to something? And then I think that's a really, I've had several conversations with lots of my seasoned spouse friends about, you know, what does it look like to come out of that perpetual volunteer role that we're also very good at, to do something that we really love, and we paid for it?

It's interesting, you mentioned volunteer, because I did a survey recently of about 200 CRF season military spouses. And one of the things that absolutely jumped off the page when I saw the results, was I was asking about the level of support, you know, how supportive Do you feel like these topics are either in conversation, and our ability to be open about the conversation or in just resources around how to do that thing. And volunteer burnout was through the roof? Like, there isn't really support to help us navigate what that looks like? And what's the right time? And how do you sort of gracefully exit that and yet, take all those skills with you. So that then you can leverage them into, you know, a position that helps you build that next stage of life?

Yeah, definitely. So, John, I just want to take a moment. And thank you for your transparency and a time right now, where you don't know if you're ready to take that, you know, final leap into actually making it your turn to choose your career. But the fact that you're here with us today to talk about, like, what I consider a very sensitive time is greatly appreciated.

Yeah, I mean, I think part of what needs to happen is the conversation, right? I think there is this tendency and and I see it even more in in sort of my peers, this tendency to not necessarily be honest about where you are sort of, you know, mentally around these topics and a lot of other topics. But it's sort of this idea that, Oh, I've been doing military life for so long, like, I should know how to do this, I should have it figured out. And the reality is, it doesn't matter how long you've been sort of in this seat, we're all learning every day, and we're all finding challenges we've never met before. And so having the conversations, I think is so important, because, you know, I'm going to learn from someone who's just navigated this, and I'm going to be able to use that, you know, to help me do it better. And I hope to be able to do that, you know, as well for someone else. So I appreciate you kind of giving us time to have the conversation around sort of what is unique to that season community, and how are they being supported? Because there's a lot for new spouses. And it's awesome. There's a lot for deployments. Equally fantastic, right. But I feel like this group kind of gets lost, because there is that idea that you've done this for so long. You know how to find the resources, you know, how to find the support, you know how to do it. And some of us, you know, we might have known but everybody, not everybody, right? But I think most people hit seasons where you just kind of need need help. And you need some folks to kind of show you a path and talk you through a path instead of trying to do that in a vacuum, which I think is awesome. Often how we end up doing it, which is just not very effective.

Yeah. Jenny Lynn, I see you nodding.

Oh, no. She said it got a hot button topic. For me. I have a large soapbox that goes with all the spousal support things that I spend many hours discussing with my own spouse friends now. She's absolutely right. Like there needs to be support through every step. And I think what's really hard I have several friends that have either transitioned out or are currently transitioning, and the hard part for them as you go from this community. I mean, we live in a large military area, every other house here is military family. And you go from that to moving back to wherever you move to and all of a sudden, that instant community that inherent understanding of what you're doing, isn't there and you know, you've done 20 Like, by the time my husband is 20 years, we'll both be 44 and can retire. And I mean, that's at the point where most people They're like hitting their stride in a civilian career, and he's gonna go wait a second, I've got to do something totally different. And there's not a whole lot of navigation for that, especially on the spouse side, when your role has been volunteer support personnel, you know, do a little here, do a little there, do a little bit of this over here. And all of a sudden, you're like, somewhere for more than two to three years. And you've got to figure out what life looks like, there isn't a ton of support for that, or understanding except from the very small population of us who do this.

Yeah, and I think there's been a lot of progress around the transition for the service member. And to some extent, you know, spouses can tap into those transitioning services. To the extent you know, they know that they can, and they choose to, but it's still I don't know, and I haven't been through it. So I can't really judge you know how relevant it is. But I still think there's conversations among your peers, that is different than kind of going through this program, if you will put together by an organization who, you know, they haven't exactly lived the way that you have, right, like the way that your peer has. And so that's part of where I think that support needs to come from is more of that peer to peer, having the conversations creating the space for the honesty about what's working and what's not. And knowing that you have people you can lean into, and you're, you know, when you're hitting a challenge.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit more about the peer to peer, Jen, because in our conversation, you have hinted that you talk amongst a lot about with your peers about the season in your life. And so, you know, although we don't have the perfect resources for you today, I think a resource is having to Jen to open up this conversation with people in in this season of your military life right now, to at least know that they're not alone. And I also think that part of it is creating awareness, or at least identifying that, like you are the kind of person that should have this dialogue with someone. So you know, offline, we were talking a little bit in our notes about the senior spouse versus the seasoned spouse. And so for people that are hearing that for the first time, can you share with us, you know, what the difference is, in your opinion? And who do you think should best reach out to you, if they want to talk to you about this season of their life right now?

Well, in terms of the senior versus season, I think, for me, and I think some people have different definitions. But for me, I've always viewed the senior spouse umbrella as the spouse of a service member who's serving in some kind of leadership capacity. So sometimes that means you are also serving in a leadership capacity through you know, volunteerism, and participation with unit functions, and so forth. Sometimes it doesn't. And that's all, you know, a personal choice. But that's a very different, it's a very different set of challenges and stresses and, and things that kind of come under that umbrella. And then I see the season spouse as kind of overarching and being a much wider category of people that to me, it's really just people who've kind of been around a little while I've seen a few things. I've been through a few things, not people who have it figured out that people who do have some tools and some experience that they could share with others, if you know if asked to do that, and most often are, I think willing to, you know, under the right circumstances. So that's how I see those two is a little bit different. And then you're sad. What was your second question? Sorry?

Oh, basically, I think you sort of answered it, because I was asking, like, you know, for people that are in this season of their life, like toward the final season, you could say, of being in the military life, when they're sort of going to tradition, but not sure if they're going to transition, they have that kind of limbo years, I was basically asking, like, how do we define that spouse, and in this case, we're defining that as the season spouse who's been around and seen things, and I believe that if there's a spouse listening to this that identifies with that, then I think they have, you know, more of a reason to even just reach out to you, even if we don't have the perfect resources to at least know that they are not alone. And they can normalize this conversation, starting with you and your peers.

And that's really honestly, part of really what I'm trying to do is to help help elevate the conversation help identify where the gaps are, both in conversation and in resourcing. Because it's not that the resources don't exist, like what I've learned is it isn't that they're not there. So I have zero interest in like creating the new resource, it's really about just helping hone them in a way that connects the people who really need them. Because what I found is if you're not sort of in the military spouse, entrepreneurial space, like that's where I get just overwhelmed and impressed all day, at the number of resources that exist, but then you turn to your peers and you realize they've never heard of ones that for me, are like old hat because I've heard them, you know, 1000 times. And so it's really just bringing those resources to the people who need them. But in order to do that, you've got to have the conversation to start so that you can start to identify what the gaps are. So That's part of what I'm trying to do is just help encourage the conversation so we can help make it easier. Really?

Yeah. And I think toward the end of your military life, just like what we're having right now, it's a very sensitive conversation. We're just like what you said, you know, a typical family at that time are probably telling themselves, well, I should have figured this out by now, I shouldn't be experiencing this, therefore, you know, I should have known what resources are available. So maybe there's that bit of maybe shame in oneself to even open up about this. But in our conversation today, I hope that our listeners know that you're not alone. And it's not easy. I remember, I was reflecting on this the other day, and it's like, you know, even though you're experienced and something, it doesn't mean that the present feeling is more bearable. Like it's still really difficult to go through what you're going through. And so I think that's what I'm also just trying to encourage people and why we have the show is to remind you that you know, where you are in life right now is so valid, and you should speak up about it, because we have a whole community of people who are probably going through the same thing as you're going through. And at the very least, if not resources, at least, that sense of community to make you feel like you're not alone.

Well, and I think for me, the conversation is even bigger than just the transition piece. Like I think the transition piece is a huge part. But I think as you look at the seasoned spouse community, the challenges that are being weathered are, you know, they run the gamut, right? It's the same challenges we had at 20 years old, they just have a different sort of nuance to them now, as we're raising teenagers and young adults, and we're trying to send them off to college. And, you know, we're figuring out where to retire and when to retire. And we're making sure our finances match what we're going to need when that happens, you know, there's

just a whole different set of conversations, I think, and it's not just the transition. It's also just, I think that weight of the cumulative effect of military life, right, it just starts to have this cumulative effect that, like, for me, wasn't really felt until I got in those upper teen years, then I started to feel the weight of that, you know, when I was at eight years in and 10 years, and I, you know, I could do anything, and I was strong all the time, right? Like I wasn't, but I thought I was. But I think the cumulative effect is I think the really important conversation that I feel like doesn't quite happen enough. And I wish that would happen a little bit more so that we could, you know, be able to help with all of these different issues that that are present for those seasoned spouses. And listen to you talk about resources. I think the other thing that is sometimes hard is that it also depends on where you are. I know that here in San Diego, like, I am fortunate to be in an area where there's actually a military family collaborative, where almost every nonprofit organization that supports military families gets together once a month to share our resources with each other. And then those of us like myself who do outreach or other things, then get other people's resources out within our own personal communities, as well as our professional communities. But that's not everywhere. And I have heard through the grapevine that San Diego has a great model that as I move around in our military career, I hope to help replicate other places because I have seen the benefit of it here. But it's not available everywhere. And it is sometimes hard to find those resources, because truthfully, there are so many, but they're also very nuanced, and how they affect people, like I know, specifically to the transition conversation. You know, here in San Diego, we do have a transition course for spouses that coincides with the transition course first, you know, the service member, but like one is if you're within a year of retirement, and the next one is if you've already retired, but you've only been retired for six months. And then so like everything has its own nuance of like how it fits you. And I think that when you're in that transition, you don't necessarily know which one's going to fit. And that's where like the conversations really come in or having like these collaboratives, where in a certain geographic area, it's easy to figure out actually what's available for you. Because also, it's not going to be one size fits all, you may have a family transitioning out where the spouse has worked the entire military career, you may have somebody that gave up a career to stay home and, you know, do a lot of volunteer things. And so those transition courses don't necessarily hit the mark for everybody either, which is where the peer to peer thing really comes in. I will say as a spouse kind of like midway through, you know, I think that your talk of peer to peer is the one thing that's needed from day one throughout. I mean, I have I'm in a position I'm in as a spouse now because of the mentorship. I received day one and continued to receive it every duty station and also I had to go to things to get it like nobody just came to me and offered me their years of wisdom. I had to show up to do things too. So I think there's a lot to be said for being a part of the community.

All right, well, on that note, you know, I think today's discussion is really about creating awareness of what it means to be a seasoned spouse and understand the struggles and the uncertainty around this time, especially if you're not sure if you're going to go to transition anytime soon. And so in the meantime, Jen, I know that there are some lessons that you wanted to share for our military spouses active duty, whether they're young or they're midway like Jenny Lynn, what are some additional maybe advice, as if you're speaking peer to peer, you know, to the spouses? What are some advice you want to share with our listeners today?

Well, and I think, to your point, like some of the things that come to mind as being, I think I'd heard this somewhere else, like the things I would tell my younger self as a military spouse, I think those apply, no matter where you're at, right? Whether you're a year two, or you're 16, or you're 18, like you can still learn new things and still kind of go outside your comfort zone. But I think for me, the biggest thing, I think, to what Jenny Lynn was just talking about is your own personal investment, whether that's investment in the community, investment in your friendships, investment in the unit, like whatever that looks like for you. But I think it is this idea that to do this, well, it's really difficult to do it well and do it passively at the same time. And so those, I think that's just an important thing for folks to always kind of think about for themselves. And then one of the big ones for me that I feel like really helped open this conversation around sort of this season two of being a seasoned spouse, is kind of that necessity for honesty. And what I feel like often happens is, it's not necessarily being dishonest, it's just not sharing, it's just not being willing to be authentic and willing to be vulnerable, because you're afraid of someone how someone will judge you for that. I mean, if you're not doing well, and you're in a valley, I think sometimes we keep those to ourselves, particularly I think, among kind of my peer group, there's this tendency to keep that valley to yourself. Because to your point like it, there's almost like this shame or this guilt that I should be strong enough to not be in this valley, I've done this, before I know how to do this, why am I here, I'm going to just kind of pretend I'm not. And I'm not going to tell people that that's where I'm at. But there's so much value and so much community that can come from being honest, and giving someone the ability to say, ah, that's exactly where I'm at. Let's figure out how to get through this piece together. So that is something I wish I had done sooner, because I really didn't learn how to lean on people and how to lean in to those relationships until, you know, I would say in the last few years, honestly. And I think the resource piece is a big one, you know, but I think that I think the resources come, if the conversations are there, and the connection and the investment is there, then I think the resources kind of work themselves out. Because if you talk to enough people, and you engage with enough people about what you need, somebody's gonna know what's available, and they're going to be able to help you through that. So I think the resource piece is super important. But you don't have to do it in a vacuum. And frankly, that's the hard way, right? Like trying to search Google on resources for your season is the hardest way to accomplish it. Right. But that's sometimes how we do it. And there's better ways. There's definitely better ways. And I think connection is how we get there.

Yeah, beautifully said, a gentleman's been nodding the entire time. So I thought I'd check in with you again.

Oh, no, I mean, Jen, you know, community and vulnerability are like two of the TED post I live life on. So she hit on everything. I mean, everything that I believe about being a military spouse, and being within the military community are those things like you have to be in community to be in community and to learn from the people who've done this, and the people who are going through it. I mean, I know in my own military spouse journey, I have found, you know, what Jen said to be true, the more that I opened up about the valleys that I was in, the more space it gave other people to open up, which led to more community, which led to more resources and the ability to help one another through versus, you know, Googling something at four o'clock in the morning, because it's kept you on hold.

Right? Yeah, absolutely. You know, that's one thing that I enjoy about doing the show is, you know, of course, there are plenty of resources out there. But it's my hope that if people feel like they can know like, and trust us being on the show, they're more likely to take the resources that we're recommending, and it's easier to to take on a resource if it was recommended by someone you know, like and trust, as opposed to what you both are saying, kind of doing that own your own scavenger hunt of finding these things and Googling these things. It's like if you could have someone who's already used that resource and can even, you know, guide you through it, it makes it that much easier. And ultimately, at the end of the day, what we're really trying to say is that, like you can't do this alone. What you're going through is so normal. It's also normal to not open up about it. So do Don't do that don't be normal in that sense, you know, be open and vulnerable and honest in a way where it doesn't just serve you. But it serves other people who are maybe not so comfortable or ready to open up about that yet or don't even realize that they had to open up about that. So I just appreciate us having this very open and candid conversation today about just, you know, different seasons of the military life. And of course, in this case, specifically about the season spouse who has been in for a long time and feels like they should have known certain things by now. But it doesn't change the fact that they're still reliving when they first started out, or they're still kind of reminded, like, hey, like, I'm still repeating the same thing. It's because I am, it doesn't mean that I'm experiencing it, like the feelings and the fear, or even the stress around it is still very much the same. All right. Well, with that said, I just want to check in with you also, Jen, I want to see if there's any final thoughts or parting advice that you want to share with our spouses and military families that are listening to your story today?

I feel like we've covered it well, but I think the biggest thing is just, you know, kind of taking that step taking that leap, if you will, you know, as I've heard other people mentioned, you know, like, do things, do it afraid, because it's worth it, if you sort of take that step, and figure out how to engage and don't feel like you're alone. Because the reality is, you're not alone, unless it's really sort of by choice, right? Like, if you're engaging with your community, and you're finding people, there's no shortage of people who will want to help and want to connect and want to lift you up. But you have to be willing to kind of raise your hand. And that was the part I struggled with. And so, you know, raise your hand, because you may be surprised by what happens and keep raising it. Because not every experience is going to be the same. And so I think sometimes what we'll do is we might test that vulnerability, and maybe it doesn't go so well. And so then we stopped testing it. And we have to keep testing it. And keep raising our hand and saying that, you know, we want to have a conversation about whatever it is. And I think that's how we all get stronger.

Yeah, Jen, you're so inspiring, especially in this time, this vulnerable time right now of being a seasoned spouse, thank you for your transparency, and your openness and your heart and your willingness to extend to other people like, hey, there are peers just like you. And we're here to have that conversation with you and make sure that you don't feel alone, and you will get through this. So thank you again, for joining us.

Absolutely. Thank you.

This will be provided in the show notes. But why don't you share with our listeners, how they can get ahold of you if they want to reach out?

Absolutely. So I run a site called pride and grit. And you can find me under that handle both on Facebook and Instagram. So I'd love you know, I'd love to hear from folks, if something about this resonates with you. I'd love to know what that is. If something doesn't, I'd love to know what that is, too. Because I think the conversation is the important part, right? We don't have to see it the same, we just have to have the conversation. So that's pride and grit. And that's where you can find me. And that's really a site that I created really for this purpose, right to be able to create a space for seasoned spouses to tell their story to tell how they're weathering the hard seasons that they've been through, and to try to give some inspiration to other people. So that's my goal.

Beautiful. Well, thank you again, so much for joining us, it's been an absolute pleasure having you,

thank you very much.

I was just gonna throw in a plug for pride, grit. I used your site several months ago, before I knew that we were doing this podcast for a civilian friend. And this is a plug for all of our civilians that listen to this, because you want to know about military life, who wanted to know how to support her military spouse, friends through deployment, and you have that resource on your website. And I sent it to her and she was like, Oh, my gosh, this is wonderful. Thank you so much. So just a plug for pride and grit and the resources you have on that page. They are very useful and well thought out. So thank you for having them up.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Awesome. Wow. That's amazing. I'm so glad that you had a chance to talk to Jen directly and let her know. So that's wonderful. All right. Well, with that said to our listeners, we want to thank you again so much for listening to us. We hope that this episode brought you at least one more piece of knowledge, resource or relevant story so that you can continue to make confident and informed decisions for you and your family. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.