Are you an artist first and a business owner second? You’re not alone—and the wedding industry’s current downturn is hitting creative professionals hard. In this episode, Pat Miller joins forces with wedding photography experts Mandy Wright and Esteban Gill to reveal how true artists can stay afloat—and even thrive—when bookings slow and trends rapidly shift.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(03:31) - Travel weddings and the reality behind the glamour

(08:16) - Why wedding bookings have slowed down

(23:08) - Why nostalgic, imperfect wedding images are back

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

LinkedIn | Website

Connect with Mandy Wright ⬇

Website | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Esteban Gil ⬇

Website | Facebook | Instagram

Mentioned in this episode:

Imaging USA

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast calling all wedding photographers. This episode is for you. Mandy Wright and Esteban Gil are on the show with us today, and we're going to talk about something that will probably hit home for you. Business is eh. I don't know how to spell eh, but would you agree that it's kind of eh right now? Like maybe it's a little bit declined? It's definitely not a rocket ship. At least that's what they're telling me and what other photographers have been sharing on the show. So how are wedding photographers surviving? But there's one extra layer. We're talking with Mandy and Esteban. They are artists who do business. Not business people who do art. So how can an artist survive in today's wedding industry? They look at the world maybe a little bit differently, and they're still doing great business. But how are they coming at it with an artist's eye and sensibility? If you're doing weddings, especially if you consider yourself an artist that does business and not the other way around, this episode is for you. Grab your notebook. We'll talk with Mandy and Esteban next. Mandy and Esteban, welcome to The Professional Photographer podcast. How are you today?

We're doing great. How are you doing?

I'm excited to have this conversation today because we're going to go a little bit into the deep thought land about being an artist in a world of business, and I'm dying to hear your perspective. But I want to start with a proper description and introduction. So, Esteban, if someone hasn't met you yet, tell us all about who you are and what you do.

Oh, man. So my name is Esteban Gil. I am a fashion and wedding photographer based in Guilford, Connecticut. I've been doing this for, man, I think 13 years now, fashion being the latest venture that I've gone on. Educator, I've been doing that for about half the time that I've been a photographer, and just absolutely love the photography community and just being an artist. Love doing all that.

And Mandy, what would you tag on to that? How would you introduce yourself to somebody?

So, Mandy Wright, I'm Canadian. I'm spending about half my time now in Guilford, Connecticut, but I'm still also in Winnipeg, Canada. I started about 12 years ago or so, very similar to him, but education has just been probably in the last four or five years. And besides weddings, I'm doing travel wedding photography. So that's sort of where my passion lies.

And she's way older than me, so.

Yeah, sure.

Travel, wedding photography. That sounds like a dream gig. Have you gone any place exotic or cool? I'm sure you have.

Yeah, many, many places. I think the most far out would be India.

Wow. That's about as exotic and cool as it gets.

But Europe is probably my favorite place to go, but I spend most of my time, like, in the Caribbean.

Okay, well, I wish I could spend most of my time in the Caribbean rather than it's like–

Great, it's just very nonchalantly saying, well, most of my year is spent at a beach, you know, doing weddings, working. But that's another podcast because we could definitely dive into the intricacies of being a travel photographer. Yeah.

The scam of being a travel wedding photographer.

It's less glamorous than it seems.

Well, okay, I'm sure it is, but it does sound pretty darn glamorous.

It does, yeah.

All right, well, let's talk about being an artist. Esteban, you described yourself as an artist in a world of business, and you look at it that way. Artist first, businessman second. So what does that mean to you?

I guess just growing up in a household. My father was a very stereotypical struggling artist who's a painter, and he always dreamed of selling his art and making a living out of it. He never quite was able to do that. So I was raised in a household that was very much about being creative and. And just putting art before the studio stuff. I was never a really good student. I mean, I was a good student, but I wasn't, like, somebody that really excelled at the studios part of growing up. And to me, I really bring that into my business where I always talk to people. I always tell them that if the forefront of your business isn't the art that you're creating, then it's just not really what I lie with. That's not something that I really–I mean, over the years, I've just always been somebody that has really, really put my art in front of everything else. And it could bite me in the butt a little bit because I don't enjoy the back end of things. So I do have to have really good support system in order to really maintain that business acumen. But to me, my art comes first. The stuff that I'm creating. I love going to shoots and just being creative, and it's just really what keeps me going. I don't find joy in spreadsheets and CRMs and all that stuff. So I do have other people doing that. But to me, the joy that comes from my business is the actual creation of the stuff that I'm creating.

Is there an intentionality and a convenience to that? That I love being an artist, but also some of the business stuff I really don't want to deal with. So it's a little bit of both, maybe just a little bit?

Yeah, no, it totally is a little bit of both. I think that there's a convenience factor for two. But I do think that there's definitely something where it is both. But being able to be in a position where I do have–I'm able to automate a lot of stuff, whether it's AI or having people do things for me is very nice. It's very fortunate to be in that position. But, yeah, I think it's nice to just kind of lean more towards the art of my business.

And it's some design. If you design your business that way, you can spend more time in the artist half. If it's a yin and a yang, you know, you get to spend more time over there being a creative, which is really great.

Yeah.

The topic today is An Artist's Guide to Surviving the Wedding Industry. So, Mandy, let's go to you. How is business? What are you hearing right now in the wedding industry? What are you two experiencing?

Well, we're experiencing, and we're hearing kind of the same thing from our peers, that it's slower than what it has been in the last few years. Although I will say that it looks like next year, in 2027, will be picking up a bit. But I think a lot of us have been feeling the struggle this past season with not as many bookings and having to kind of adapt a little bit to that.

And you're not guessing. It's not just you two putting your finger up in the air, hoping that you know what's going on. Let's put in a blatant plug for the group. Tell us about your group.

Yeah, so group's been around for almost like seven or eight years. It's called Steel and Flint Society. There's 12,000 of us. They're a very active group, very friendly group. And it's on Facebook. We have contests and we have Lives in there. So there's a ton of different things. And we also kind of get a good gauge of how the industry's doing because people are posting in there and saying, hey, how are everyone's bookings doing or having issues with bookings? So we don't just see it from our own perspective. I think we have the ability to be able to see it as a broader sense where we have that view from 12,000 photographers that are kind of all within the same message, where it's like, all right, well, it seems like things are down, like when are things going to pick up? So yeah, it's nice to have that community.

And it's an international group too, so not really just regional specific. So I think we're getting a good look at how things are doing kind of across North America and even reaching into Europe and Asia a little bit.

Yep.

So you have this group of people and your own experience telling you things are slower than we would all like. Mandy why? What's the reason for that?

I mean, I think we all kind of have our own conclusions for this. I think a little of it might be from like a downfall from COVID still. We saw like a spike right after things opened back up again. The year or two of people not being allowed to have celebrations made an influx in probably year '22 and '23. I think maybe we're just seeing a leveling out of that a little bit. I think a lot happened in the last few years, and now we're seeing it settle a bit. And to us that looks like slower season because it's not as busy as it was.

And I think you also have with COVID it was, even though we're still years past COVID, I do think that there was also an influx of people that were getting into the industry. So there's a sort of a like over saturation of newer photographers coming in. And then just a I think there's a post, I mean you kind of go into like a pre-COVID and post-COVID world when you talk about anything. So the industry looks vastly different than it did in 2019 and 2018. I think that the approach to the industry, I think a lot of the–I mean, even just like something that comes down to like marketing is vastly different than what it was before. Things have changed drastically, and I think it's just a matter of like really adapting to what a new world kind of looks like, specifically in the wedding photography industry.

I'm a business guy, so I could get out a whiteboard and come up with strategies for the rest of this episode talking about business guy business stuff. But I want to ask you, Esteban, about being an artist in this slowdown. How can artists who are passionate about their work keep the doors open even when things are slowing down? What would you recommend?

So when I talk about being an artist over a business owner, I guess the misconception is that I'm only an artist and not necessarily a business owner. I think that the mentality should be that if your passion is to be an artist, then you should definitely put that in the forefront of your business. I think that your art should be what sells you first, but it doesn't mean that you should put your business and your business practices to the back end and not really focus on them. So, I mean, your marketing should still be very prominent. Your social media presence should still very much be very prominent too. So just making sure that in order for you to be an artist, you still need to put things together into your business that allow you to be that artist. I think that, again, we're 12, 13 years into this business, and we're very fortunate to be in the position that we can be that artist first, but it took a long time. So one of the biggest things when it comes to talking to educators and having these conversations is that most people are just seeing what we are now, and they're not necessarily seeing the steps that it took to get here. And when we talk about the downfalls and the things that we tried, and obviously things like COVID that really pushed us to pivot a lot, that's where you really need to focus on making sure that you have a structure to your business and that you actually, maybe you have to sit down. You have to say, all right, well, how much time of my week am I spending on marketing? How much time a week am I spending on social media? And then just really put that into practice to make sure that you're focusing over time. And then the goal is always to kind of end up being just an artist.

Telling the world about your creative eye, does that come to promoting yourself? You're the differentiator, your view of the world and the way that you capture what you see is the essence of the business, is that a different type of promotion than someone that may not lean in or lead with that?

I think so. I think that I'm very much when I'm marketing myself, when I'm talking about my work, I think there's–I don't want to put down anybody that is very much a business owner first, but I think that there's a little bit more passion when you talk about the stuff that you create. I love talking about storytelling. I love talking about the way that I compose my images in order to tell a story in a single frame. Those are all things that when I'm creating them, I want to share them with the world. And when I do share them, I feel like there is a little bit more passion to it because of the way that I feel about being a storyteller and the way I feel about being an artist. And it also, it doesn't show, I feel like there's a lot of people that are business owners first that show a lot of redundancy with the process. So it's very much like, it seems like, very structured. It seems very like, oh, I'm posting these same type of images every single time. And when I'm very passionate about the stuff that I create, I like to talk about it. I like to write about it. And I feel like that comes through with my clientele, and they see the passion behind it. So, yeah, I think there's definitely a difference in that.

Yeah, I would say it seems more like a recipe or something with the way that, like, even if you were to look at our Instagram or social media accounts, like, I think we kind of, I don't want to say we're all over the map but–

We're definitely a mess.

But we're trying new things. We're posting all different mixes of stuff. Like, we're. We're really trying to create for the client, the specific client that we're catering to that wedding. And you'll see other photographers who are running just as successful businesses, but with a different approach, who may have a way more cohesive look. Every wedding gallery or every post looks kind of the same. And that works, I think, too, for them. Like, some clients might feel safer knowing, like, okay, like, this is my wedding is going to look like this. This is what I'm going to get from it, where I think that we're a little more experimental in our approach.

Which will lead to, like, with talking about, like, our classes.

Yeah.

At Imaging because I do think that we're very experimental. We're always trying to do something new, and we're excited to talk about it. So we'll go into a fashion shoot or a wedding, and we'll be like, well, let's go try this crazy idea. And if it works, then it works. If it doesn't, then we just move on to the next thing. And that's kind of how we lead the way that we present ourselves online. I feel like it caters to a very specific set of people. And it kind of helps us out because we kind of vibe with, with our clients a little bit differently rather than just somebody. I mean, I always use the term like you want people to hire you because of your work, not because your prices. And usually those people that are hiring you because of your work, they're not really questioning pricing or they're not questioning a lot of other things. They're not telling you to, oh, well, this person's charging me this much. Can you just match this pricing or can I take the albums out? Can I do all these other things? They just want you to create the stuff that you put out, and it doesn't really matter how much you charge for it.

So let's stay on that for a second. Esteban, back to you. Let's talk about how you're using social media. There was a time when putting up an Instagram page or a Facebook page and here comes the business, and it's not really where we're at right now. Are you relying as much on social media as being the lead dog of sharing your story, or can you elaborate a little bit on these experiments and some of the other things that you're doing to raise awareness and potentially get business?

Yeah, I mean, I think I still very much use social media to get new business. I think it's, we're artists. I mean, people literally hire us because of what we're creating visually. So we really have to look at the main platforms where we're sharing that visual aspect of what we do. And to me, that's our website, which is our portfolio, and then our social media. And the social media to me, and to Mandy as well, is not just the visual aspect of we're creating, but the overall essence of who we are as artists. So whether it's our personal life or not or what else it may be.

Sure. Mandy, how about you? Let's talk about staying open. When we are following our passion and we're creating great work, we still want to use that creativity and to create products that people want to buy. And maybe sometimes there's some tension between those two things. What are you observing in your business and in your Facebook group's businesses?

Yeah, I think there's been, I mean, when you've been in the industry for a long time, you can be kind of set in your ways and less open-minded to new things. And I think as the world evolves and photography evolves, the style and stuff like that does too. And people are asking for things that we have once thought was cringy. And I mean, some of the stuff that's coming back now actually used to be kind of cool, maybe in the 80s and 90s, and it's kind of making a reoccurrence. But when we're kind of set in our ways, we can resist that. And I think one way to stay relevant and in business is to be open to experimenting with these styles. And it doesn't necessarily mean just copying or doing the stuff that we're seeing on TikTok and Instagram, but I think that you can take the techniques and the things that people are finding appealing and turn it into your own and make it fit your brand and, and your work. So just staying open to that and learning and pushing yourself, so that you're staying relevant.

It's really tough to, especially when it comes when I talk about being an artist, I feel like a lot of the time people associate that with like, stay true to yourself, like you're an artist. But at the same time, that's where that other side of our business comes in, where it's like, I can still be an artist, but I'm also a business person, meaning that I also need to cater to what my clients' needs are. And that might mesh in with maybe trends in the industry trends and just social media. So it might mean that I'm going to create this very beautiful storytelling set of images. But at the same time, maybe the bride might want direct flash, or maybe the bride might want those cheesy photos of like the big shoe, like with the groom looking up like that were done in like, I don't know, 2010 or something. So if somebody were to come up to me and we get asked this all the time, especially during conferences, I'll be like, well, how do you deal with these, with these trends? And we literally had the same response, and we're like, just do it, do it and post it. That's where the business owner comes in. People are paying you to create these images. If somebody comes up to you and says, hey, can you create this really cheesy image? They might not order that way, but you might have to just swallow your pride, create it because they're your clients and they're paying you for this stuff, and then just go out and create the stuff that you feel passionate about. So I think it's really about a balance of being able to cater to both sides of the equation.

So where Are these cringy, now borderline cool trends coming from? Are you paying attention to TikTok? Is it coming from Pinterest? All places, Netflix movies about the 80s? Mandy, where is this coming from?

For sure, social media is number one. I mean, it's Instagram, TikTok, and Pinterest too, flooded with inspo. And we're being sent these, like, posts and stuff all the time when we're hired for things that they want to, like, create. But I do think there's another side of it that is definitely coming from movies as well. There's lots of inspiration from cinema.

There's a lot of nostalgia going around. I feel like there's so much technology around us that we want to go back to a time where we were like, no, I want to go back to my videos looking like they were taken on a potato, basically.

Yeah.

And that's what people want. And maybe just like the film look like, going back to photo–like, we photograph a ton of film. Even during weddings, we'll do film. And the nostalgia factor is very much a thing. And if you're not embracing that, then you're really leaving out a lot of business because there are couples out there that will reach out to us and say, what about film? How much does it cost if you were to go in and shoot film for the entire wedding? And that's, I think, where it's coming from. I think it's just social media and people just feeling nostalgic about the 90s and the 80s. And I think that kind of leads to spilling into the wedding photography industry. And a lot of influencers too. I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the bigger names in the industry are definitely taking part into how the trends shift.

Like Taylor Swift, like her engagement photos. A lot of photographers had a lot of negative things to say about it, but there for sure is going to be a rise in that just because of who she is and what she put out there. People are going to request photos that look like that.

Exactly. If her photographer took the photos on a Nokia phone from 1998, you would probably see a good portion of the industry looking into that Nokia. You would see the trend of the Nokia phone go up in the Google trends. And there's that aspect of things where somebody with that much influence comes in, and it's going to shape the way that the industry is pivoting.

And I think generally speaking, a lot of the trends that we're seeing are images that are unpolished, they're relaxed, they're easy, and that's where the direct flash comes in instead of like off camera flash. A lot simpler technique. And I think that is the opposite of what lots of us have been taught for our entire career. So it feels very against everything that we've learned. It's like we want pose, we want everything perfect, we want the light. Like we want to control everything. And that's the opposite of what's trending right now. So it just feels wrong to shoot that way. And it seems easy. Some of these techniques and the way people are shooting takes, I mean, arguably less skill than some other techniques. So to us, it kind of feels like it's too easy, if that makes sense.

I'm really curious about the meaning, Mandy. We right now have in our pocket something that can shoot crystal clear images. We can get our cameras out, crystal clear images, generate them instantly, edit them to the moon. And here comes this trend of nostalgia. And the surface level way to express it is make it look like it was shot on lower quality gear with not as great lighting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But why are they wanting this? I mean, yes, nostalgia, but there's got to be something else going on. Why do you think people are hungry for this kind of candid feel that's coming from the equivalent view of a point and shoot?

Well, I mean, the first thing I would argue is that more emotion when there's less control of the situation. So I think people are drawn to the authenticity that's coming across in these images versus stuff that we've been producing for a long time.

Yeah, I mean, we just had this conversation a couple of days ago where it's like we spent the last 12, 13 years perfecting our craft, perfecting the way that we light, perfecting the way that we do things. And now we're having to find ourselves just being a little bit more laid back about the way that we approach things and not necessarily focusing so much on the technical aspect of what we do, but the storytelling aspect of what we do. And maybe that shows that it's not really about the high-end gear that we're using, but it's more about the emotive and the emotion of it. I think that's where the link between the nostalgia and that style of photography comes in, where you're just focusing more on the emotion of the image rather than the technical aspect of things. And I think it's kind of cool. And I think there's a lot of photographers that are not embracing that. I think we talked about this the other day, too. We were sitting there like, well, we were the new kids once because a lot of photographers in the past were like, I spent the last 25 years photographing in a certain way, and I'm just going to do this, and I don't care what everybody else is doing. And we were the new ones coming in, and we were like, well, we're photographing in this way. And now we find ourselves in that position where it's like, all right, well, we can either be that person that's kind of set in their ways, or we can pivot and actually adjust our approach to cater to the industry and what it needs and also stay true to ourselves as artists.

Yeah, it's a fascinating conversation. We could have a whole separate podcast about that because I have, like, a thousand more questions about it. But let's stay on topic here about being an artist doing business. Esteban, when do you know if you're crossing the line? I don't want to say selling out, but when do you feel like, ooh, I'm up against the border of how far I want to go here to make a client happy? How do you know that you're getting there? And what do you do when you're there?

Oh, man, that's a good question. How do I know where I'm crossing the line? I think that I don't really think that, artistically speaking, or if there's anything that they might need that really falls outside of anything that might be against my belief system as a person. I really don't think that there's really going to be much of a line. I guess it would just have to be like, how much do I want to swallow my pride when creating an image or doing anything? But I don't think, I think when it comes to creating a photo, if somebody comes in and says, well, I guess the one thing that I can think of is if you have a conversation with a potential couple or a client or bride or groom, and I think there also needs to be just kind of feel in the mouth to see if they're a right fit for what your kind of artistry falls under. If they feel like they were probably, I mean, you could be demanding, but then you could be too demanding if you're getting, like, if you're trying to have somebody send you a list of things that are basically asking for a very specific set of images and that's fine. But if it feels like you're not going to be yourself during the wedding, then that might be a situation. I've never really run into it too much. I don't know if you have, but yeah, I think I would probably have to take a lot in order to feel that way.

Mandy, so things are slowing down. Give us some tips and tricks, some ideas so we can keep bus business coming into the studio because we want to make sure that we stay open and get through this lull and back to just wedding bliss with more leads than we can handle.

So, I think for me, staying active on social media is important. And even if time is slow in the business side, I'm staying active by posting social things that kind of align with my business and, and what I bring. So, as I said, destination travel photographer, I'm posting lots of our personal travel, workshop travel. I'm making sure that I'm keeping content and imagery up there, even if it's not exactly weddings, but just to keep me relevant and on the top of the feed so people are seeing me, and on top of mind. I think getting out there too, networking with other photographers, getting out in your community, just showing face and staying active that way, you know, it can be very easy. This can be very isolating career sometimes, and it can be easy just to hide away in our office and complain that business isn't coming to us. But I think it's really important to get out there and to stay active everywhere in every capacity. Yeah. Anything for you?

Yeah, no, I would agree. I think that I always have this quote and I say your success is direct correlation of how much effort you're putting into it, especially when it comes to business. So if you find yourself not making enough money, I feel like a lot of the time, especially as going back to the whole artist thing, we tend to want to blame everybody other than ourselves, right? So we're like, well, what's happening in the industry? Why am I not making money? Who in my area is doing better than me? And a lot of the time, it really just comes down to, well, what am I not doing? Am I really putting things into practice that are going to help my business? And I feel like it's very easy to blame everybody other than yourself when you're not doing well because they're out of your control, right? So you're not–if you blame somebody else, that means that you can't do anything about it. So it kind of puts your brain almost at ease in a really weird way. But in reality, it's like, change your mindset to, hey, if I'm not making enough money, then there's something that I'm not doing correctly. So go back to the drawing board. What did you do 12 years ago, 13 years ago, to get the business? Are you spending enough time on your marketing? Are you spending enough time on social media? Are you getting in front of people like Mandy said, not just in your community, but just nationally? Like, are you actually getting, like, when you go to these conferences, if you go to Imaging USA next year, are you sitting in your hotel the entire time, or are you out tapping shoulders, talking to people, getting knowledge, coming up to your favorite photographer and just saying–one of our favorite things during conference season is literally just like, there's been a couple times where we've, like, walked from meeting to meeting, and we've been so late to meeting sometimes because people have stopped us in the hallway to ask us questions. And that's our favorite part of conference season because it's actually getting to know the people and getting to have these conversations, very meaningful conversations. So are you going to these conferences to sit around and just go into a class? Or are you actually putting yourself out there and being able to go out and ask questions and network with people? So just so many things that you can do. And then obviously you have, like, I'm sure you have a million people telling you the same thing, like, are you selling albums, you selling prints? Like, these are all things that you've probably heard from photographers all over. But they're very basic things that could actually help you get through a lot of different difficult times.

There's another basic we need to hit on. And I hear this all the time with the small business owners I talk to. They just don't get back to leads quickly enough. People will send them an inquiry. I'll get back to them next week. Next week? How are you two running that side? The lead comes in, and boom, you get right back to them. I'm curious, is that automated? Do you have help that does it? How do you go about doing that?

She's staring at me because I'm the guy that takes a week to get back.

It is you.

Remember the whole artist thing? Yeah, but np, but being with her, obviously, it has helped me a ton. And just being able to, just the very, like the most basic thing that you could do to a lead is just get back to them within like, I mean 24 hours. I wouldn't say like don't get back to them at 2 o' clock in the morning because that sets a precedent of you sending emails back at 2 o' clock in the morning. But yeah, you can touch on this because you're an expert at this.

Well, I'm not an expert but I just get back to people in a reasonable time. But yeah, I think just staying on top of it, so and making sure that the communication doesn't die off because that's also something I hear a lot of is like as soon as we booked, then the communication went down a hill. So just keeping up with it, and I think 24 hours, it's fine, 12 hours, like I try, and if I get an inquiry I'm trying to respond that day and if I don't get to it that day for sure it is by the next day. When I have been busy and, and put things off, I've had leads come back and say, oh, sorry, we booked someone else. And I'm like, I know it's because I, you know, I took three or four days, and they were eager to get this done. This was probably something on their checklist. So yeah, I think it pays to be on top of these things.

Especially nowadays with the world being–

Everything so instant.

Yeah, everyone wants things yesterday, and then a post-COVID world means that there were–I mean there's a lot of people that started a photography business during COVID. So when you have somebody looking for a wedding photographer, you're not the only person they're reaching out to. They're probably looking around and seeing maybe 10 photographers, reaching out to all 10. And it's the first one that–because they're all probably going to look around the same like style and same type of photography, then whoever gets back to them is probably going to get that reply back, and if they're really consistent about replying, then they're probably going to get the booking. So yeah, that's also been something that's bit me on the butt a few times.

And years ago we used to, like there's a lot of in-person consults, and if not that, then definitely phone or Zoom. But I think again, post-COVID world, like that's essentially gone. Like I don't talk to the clients. It's a couple of emails, and they've decided if they're going to book me or not. So the email is incredibly Important and more than it was five years ago.

Yeah, we're almost out of time. We're going to talk about Imaging in just a second. But I do want to ask you, Esteban, about the temptation to lower pricing when things are slowing down. How do you fight that? Because some people see that as the antidote to book more gigs by, well, if I just lower my price, they'll say yes, easier. And is that something that you wrestle with? And if so, how do you fight it?

Yeah, I wrestle with that all the time. If I see anything that if there's a portion of the year where I feel like I'm not getting enough bookings, the thought definitely comes across. And one of the things that I talk to people about is, I know it goes against what you'll probably hear from most people, is that it really comes down to your needs of your business and not necessarily what an industry is dictating you should do for your business. So if it means that I need to lower my prices in order to put food on the table, then obviously the answer is right there. I don't think that it should be the first thing that you do when you feel that business is going down. I think going back to the drawing board and saying, all right, well, what am I missing here? What can I change with my marketing? What can I change with the way that I structure my business in order to get more business? But I don't think there's anything wrong with really being a human being and really looking at the idea that maybe not lowering your prices, maybe offering a discount, or maybe if you book within a certain amount of time, if you reach out to me and you book within a week, then maybe you get something. It might not be a discount, but maybe something additional. Maybe you get extra hours of coverage. There's different ways to give that discount by offering other things within your business. But, yeah, it's something I think I always think of, especially when now that we're going into the winter, business is going to be a little bit slower. So now I'm trying to think of what next year is going to be looking like, and I'm trying to figure out how many bookings I have for next year and in comparison to the last couple of years. So that's when you need to make your decision of whether, all right, well, maybe I'll start offering these things or I'll start offering a little bit extra. So definitely not ignoring it, because I think that's that's the worst thing you could do.

When we talked about our own struggles in booking and whether we were priced too high or out of the market this past season, we had kind of looked at the books together, and I had suggested that like, so we're running separate businesses. And I was like, whoa, like our retainers are the complete opposite here. Like what we're asking our clients for initially at booking is wildly different. Maybe possibly because of the high price of the entire package. We need to start thinking about a smaller retainer and less of like a 50% down payment just to make it a little easier for the client to book and to retain us for the day. So that's something we adjusted, and I think makes a huge difference to have just that smaller feed do up front.

Yeah. Because if we go back to that client that's reaching out to 10 different people, all the 10 different people, they're probably going to be around the same skill set. Their work is probably going to be similar because they already know what they want. So if you have 10 people that whose work looks similar and one of them says, well, let's say it's a $12,000 package and you need to give me $6,000. And then another one says, well, it's a $12000 package, but in order to book me, it's a $1500-2000 package. That entry point is a lot easier because you don't know people are planning for a wedding maybe 12 to 18 months in advance and they're saying, well, I don't know, my parents are going to give us X amount of money 12 months from now. But now we can actually book this photographer for the $1500 or $2000. So that's something I changed in the last year, and it's helped me tremendously because it's easier for people to get that contract and pay it. I use a $1500 retainer, and then the balance is due whenever and being able to offer different payment structures. So yeah, no, I think that's been super helpful for my business, especially after we had that conversation.

If you like this episode, you think, man, I want to learn more from these two. You're in luck because we get to do that at Imaging USA in Nashville. So Esteban, tell us about your pre-con class.

So the pre-con class we are.

Pull it up so we don't mess them up.

It's a creative wedding photography, so tools of visual impact. So we go through, again being able to be that artist and being able to create very different specific set of images throughout the wedding day. So we go through doing [brownizers], we go through dynamic lighting, blur storytelling, how we incorporate composition with storytelling. So basically, the way that we create these really cool images throughout the day. And we're going to go and do a deep dive into every single one of those images now.

Okay, so you're doing a second class too. Tell us about that one.

Yes. So our second class is switching lenses, and it's how the two of us work together on the wedding day. Sorry, I don't have the title correct there, but it's just about how we work together as a dynamic team, how we both bring different strengths to the table and how we do have completely different styles and approaches for a lot of the day, but how we manage to blend those two together and tell the complete story.

Yeah. And how she yells at me the entire day about my ADHD kicking in and she's like, Esteban, what are you doing in the corner over there? Stop taking photos of the corner and come take photos of the couple. But it is definitely much about, like, how we approach the day. And I think we've really put together a really cool dynamic on our approach to the wedding day. And it's really nice to be able to share that with people because we do, again, we have very different approaches, but it all works out in the end, so it's really cool to see.

And what a cool mix of classes. One class that's about imagery and about how you capture things, and the other one is how you work together as a team and actually do the business on a wedding day. It's going to example of everything that you bring to the table. Mandy and Esteban, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer podcast. Now, before you go, let me know what Mandy and Esteban said that made you go, yes, I agree, or yes, they're wrong. Don't care. Leave us a comment because we want to hear what you're getting out of the show. That's kind of how we know if things are going well. Also, we'd love it if you would like and subscribe. The algorithm gods really appreciate that. Also, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're truly missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com again. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community and the host of the show. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.