Retention Marketing Mastery: From Leaky Buckets to Loyal Fans

In this eye-opening episode of The E-Commerce Podcast, host Matt Edmundson dives deep into retention marketing with Thomas Lalas, the self-proclaimed "subscription whisperer" who helps million-dollar e-commerce brands keep customers coming back for more. They explore why focusing solely on customer acquisition is like "adding more water to a leaky bucket" and reveal practical strategies for transforming one-time buyers into loyal subscribers.

I wonder if you've noticed how the subscription economy has evolved? Thomas shares his journey from startup founder to retention specialist, explaining that his own business collapsed because they prioritized acquisition over retention. Now he's on a mission to help other brands avoid the same costly mistake.

Are you missing opportunities in those crucial post-purchase moments? This conversation might just change how you think about customer loyalty and the true value of your existing customer base.

Key Takeaways:

Thomas challenges the common approach to e-commerce, suggesting that brands focus too heavily on acquisition while neglecting retention. He introduces several innovative concepts:

1. Move beyond "subscribe and save" - Create offers that add genuine lifestyle value and support your customers' identity, not just discounts.
2. Space out your freebies - Rather than front-loading all incentives, gamify the experience by spacing rewards across multiple orders.
3. The post-purchase period is part of the product - The first two weeks after purchase should be considered part of your core offering, not an afterthought.
4. Turn anxiety into excitement - Use the period between purchase and delivery to build anticipation and educate customers.
5. Meet customers where they are - If you acquire customers from Facebook, build a Facebook group; if they're younger and mobile-first, consider an app.
6. Education drives upsells - Create bite-sized masterclasses that educate customers and naturally lead to relevant upsells (Thomas reports a 33% conversion rate).
7. Personalize based on signals - Use surveys and customer behavior to tailor offers to specific needs and concerns.
8. Send more emails, not fewer - Most brands don't send enough post-purchase communication.

I wonder how these strategies might transform your relationship with customers? Could turning product education into an event with "graduation" and rewards change how your audience perceives your brand?

For more information about retention marketing strategies and to connect with Thomas Lalas, visit our website at ecommercepodcast.net.

Welcome to the E-Commerce Podcast with me, your host Matt Edmundson Now this is a show all

about delivering E-Commerce, well helping you deliver E-Commerce, wow.

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And to help us do just that today, I am chatting with Thomas Lalas about retention

marketing of all things.

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We're gonna get into that.

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Yes, we are gonna pick his expert brains.

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But before we do, let me invite you to stop on by the website, ecommercepodcast.net, sign

up for the newsletter.

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And all the show notes and links go to your website, no, they don't, go to your inbox

automatically for free.

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And you can get that just by signing up, which I appreciate on its own is just really

boring, right?

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It's the standard podcast newsletter, isn't it?

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Well, let me tell you, we are jazzing it up.

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There's going to be some extra content, some extra stuff in there.

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We're trying to make that newsletter a lot more, you know.

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A lot less lazy is probably the better way to put it and be a bit more creative with it.

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So do make sure you sign up for that at ecommercepodcast.net.

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Now let's talk about Thomas, a former military policeman, which if you're like me, makes

me instantly think of Jack Reacher.

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He's turned subscription whisperer, which I think is a great title and helps million

dollar e-commerce brands keep their customers coming back for more.

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When he is not slashing churn rates,

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and maximizing retention for eight to nine figure brands.

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This ex academic and startup founder is tackling his most challenging role yet.

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Being a dad.

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yes, Thomas, welcome to the show, man.

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Great to have you.

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How are we doing?

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Pleasure being here.

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I'm really excited.

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mean, you are such an amazing host.

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I can't wait for this conversation.

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So let's get going.

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gets you everywhere on this show Thomas.

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I'm not gonna lie That straight out of the I'm not being rude but it's it's in the how to

be a great podcast guest book 101 Just say really nice things about the host right at the

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start and they'll like you

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or just be a great host and people will just naturally give you compliments.

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And again, well done.

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It's working.

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Let's just change the topic of this show and call it feeding Matt's ego.

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That's what we should.

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man, love it, love it, love it.

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It's great to to you.

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Where about, I mean, I'm in the UK, it's seven o'clock in the evening here.

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I've got a belly full of delicious food.

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Whereabouts in the world are you?

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Right now I'm in Greece.

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I used to be in the UK, so it's nine o'clock my time.

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And after that, baby is going to call for, you know, to go to bed and I'll be there as a

good daddy.

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yeah, that's the last thing of the day, you know, interesting conversation with a fellow

Liverpoolian.

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Hi.

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Yes, I'm a Liverpool fan and I used to live in Manchester, but I supported Liverpool.

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I didn't tell anyone.

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I was in Manchester last night and I won't mention the Liverpool game because we don't

want to talk about it.

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But I was in Manchester last night with my long-standing friend.

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We've been friends for 30 years and he happened to be visiting Manchester.

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So Liverpool is not that far if you don't know British geography from Manchester, it's

like 40 minutes on the train.

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So I caught the train into Manchester.

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He and I had some food, just catching up.

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It really great.

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And we found this pub called

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What was it called?

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Something like the stinky cow or the stinky pig or something like that, or the craft.

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I don't know.

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It something to do with pigs, I think.

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And it was great because it had these booths and it was like a sports pub.

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And in each booth that would seat six people at the end of it was a TV.

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So you got your own TV.

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So you didn't have that thing where people couldn't see the TV.

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So we sat and we had a, we had a beer and we watched the game and we left, so

disappointed.

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Uh, but yes, it's just, was fascinating watching a Liverpool game in Manchester.

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The first time I'd done that.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and they actually showed the game which was also quite impressive

so You know these these things also always awesome So tell us how did you get it?

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Forgive me if you're watching the video ladies gentlemen I'm I've got my cup of tea in my

hand which I'm drinking my butter mint tea How did you get into?

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Retention marketing.

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What was the story there?

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It's always because of need.

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Usually people share their origin story and it goes something along like, I have this

problem and I want to solve it, so now I'm solving it for other people.

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For me, it's more like a story of pain where I'm an ex-startup founder, among others, and

I've done the academic circle, lecturing, and I'm an ex-military.

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But when I was in the startup world,

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I realized that we were growing, but acquisition was what was driving that growth, but not

retention.

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And eventually the startup collapsed and I realized that we should have maintained the

customers that we got.

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And because of that, when I transitioned from being the offer owner, the startup owner,

and become a service provider, I realized that this is a great place to get started.

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Email, SMS, retention, subscriptions, et cetera.

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Something I was already familiar with.

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I've made a ton of mistakes on.

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I tried to fix it and eventually in the last seven years in the Ecom world, I've kind of

powered through the ranks of the retention industry.

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and some people consider me, you know, they call me a wizard, an artist or like the best.

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So I'll take anything they, they share me with, but I feel pretty comfortable in this

world.

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And I love digging into data and discovering patterns and innovating, connecting different

services and different

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solutions in unexpected ways in order to get an edge over the competition.

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That's really good.

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I remember, it would have been 2012, 2013, somewhere in there.

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So a little while ago, we were running an econ business that sold beauty products at the

time, right?

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And a friend of mine drew this sort of little triangle on a piece of paper.

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And in one corner, he put price.

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In another corner, he put quality.

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And in the other corner, he put service, right?

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So you got price quality and service.

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And he said to me, Matt, you can only have two.

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You can't have all three.

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In other words, you can't have a company that is really driving down, you know, give him

really good prices, low prices to a quality product and deliver great customer service.

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But you know, the math don't work.

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And so

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When we were doing the beauty company at the time, we were a quality product at a low

price.

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So our customer service was not great.

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Um, and so you had to go and get a lot of new customers, right?

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New customer acquisition was a big deal.

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Um, and I remember 20, 23rd, uh, 2012, I deliberately, after looking at that little

triangle, Thomas, I, I said, no, we need to shift.

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We need to move from a sort of a low price, high quality product model to a.

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a quality product, still keep the quality product, but deliver quality service, which

means our prices had to go up to be able to pay for the, you know, the increase in

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customer service that we were about to do.

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So you know what, we did this.

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And I wish I could sit here and say that the day that I did that, my business boomed,

because it didn't at all.

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Our sales fell for the first few months.

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Where I noticed it was the following year was we grew by over 20 % and we grew so quickly

because we started to get a lot of returning customers.

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And it took a little while for the returning customers to get used to the, or for

customers to get used to this higher quality of customer service that we were trying to

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give and experience and so on and so forth.

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And then we got the returning customers back.

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So I am a big, big fan of...

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this idea of retention marketing in terms of, I know new customer acquisition is

important.

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It's not the topic of today's podcast, but I'm a massive fan of retention marketing.

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I'm a massive fan of getting customers coming back time and time again to buy, because it

really helped us out, you know.

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Absolutely.

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And something that I hear over and over again from brand operators is that they want

somebody to fix their retention leaky bucket.

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Yeah.

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That's how they call it, know, leaky retention, leaky bucket.

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And the point is that you spend all this money, all this effort to acquire a customer.

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So you have a CAC of, you know, I don't know, 80, 90, $150, depending on what you're

selling.

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And in order for most businesses to make their money back and break even, they need to

have each customer to buy multiple times.

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Yeah.

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So that's why subscription is very important and retention is very important because it

unlocks the, the true LTV of the brand.

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Right.

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And, and when the competition is so fierce, you need to be able to afford higher CAC to

get customers that other brands can't afford to pay.

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So that's why it's very important to focus on retention.

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and I'm, and I'm seeing not, not many brands really pay attention to what's happening,

post customer acquisition.

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They feel that.

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Their job is done once they get the customer because you know what with media buying the

feedback is instant.

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It's daily.

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It's momentary.

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You you know exactly how they had performed but with retention you have to wait for a

month to see if the person is going to buy again.

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So it's going to you don't have real time retention.

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You need to wait for you know 28 30 plus days and that is a low really slow feedback loop.

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So that's why I would like

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for brands to focus on retention and think of the first two weeks post-purchase as a part

of the product, not as an afterthought.

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It needs to complement the product, the experience, the ads, the website, and to educate

the first-time buyer so they can actually stop having objections, regrets.

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to be educated about the product, how it works, and to make it a part of the lifestyle.

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yeah, retention is not an afterthought.

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It should be a part of the product itself.

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Well, absolutely.

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And I think it should be a big part of your marketing spend as well.

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I don't think it's just something that you go, we'll just send emails and it's fine.

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I think you have to actually allocate budget because you know, the leaky bucket analogy,

there's a great phrase which I've used a lot recently is you don't fix a leak in bucket by

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adding more water, right?

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And you just don't.

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And so it never sort of fixes it.

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And I guess the other...

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true ism about e-commerce is those with the deepest pockets win the most customers, right?

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So you, if you can, if you've got great customer retention, it means you can go higher on

the cat, which means your new customer acquisition, the whole engine gets fed.

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Yeah, you can reinvest the money back into growth if that's your goal.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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But you're right about retention marketing.

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But what you do retention wise, it's not like I can do it now and A B test it today.

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You have to, depending on your product and your product's lifecycle, you've got to play a

bit more of a long game, haven't you?

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So what have you, let's get into some tactics.

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Because I think, I mean, we can all agree with the principle.

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And if you can't agree that retention market is important after the conversation we've

just had, I'm not sure how much.

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how much more this podcast is gonna help you today.

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But it's one of those things where I think the majority of people go, yes, it's good.

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I get the leaking bucket analogy and I need to stop the leak.

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I appreciate that.

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What are some of the things that we should be thinking about, Thomas, here in 2025 that

maybe we're not?

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Are we still missing?

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the fundamentals or are other things that we should be looking at because we've got those

down.

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When it comes to retention, yes, we are absolutely missing the plot on the fundamentals.

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It is a disaster, more often than not.

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It's quite easy to go and check on Shopify what your retention looks like.

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now we have two different categories.

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have brands that have on one time purchases and subscriptions and brands that go

subscription only.

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For me, I specialize in subscription only.

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And I think that's the smartest thing to do to create a powerful subscription offer and to

prove to your customers that they need your product again and again, and remove any, any

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objections from their head.

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And the goal would be for them not to cancel while when you have one time products, the

goal is always to sell.

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as fast as possible and there are so many opportunities for you to pitch again in a

different way that makes sense.

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There's not enough time to educate.

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You need to think about the next order which you have to drive.

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So that's why a lot of subscription first models.

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But it all starts with the offer.

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A bad product, a bad offer with bad economics cannot be fixed with a retention system

because it's just the math is broken.

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It needs to be a product that makes sense and it's something that unlocks acquisition,

something that people really want, but also something that people will keep wanting.

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And usually there is a starter kit, there is a great offer, the upcoming offers also

matter.

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Because if let's say,

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there is an offer that includes a starter kit with a main product, a couple of freebies,

free stuff, and then the second order is just the product by itself and sometimes it's

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even more expensive than the first purchase.

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By contrast, you're not going to like the second order, or you might be tempted to get all

the freebies that were offered to you upfront and then cancel right away because you've

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just gained the system.

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But this is a customer where you've lost money as a brand.

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This makes sense for you to acquire this customer in the first place.

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You want the customers that will keep buying, break at least, break even, and then keep

buying.

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This is the profit is.

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So the offer is the number one thing that brands need to really start restructuring.

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I see a lot of plain offers done and all subscription optimized.

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Just slapping the button of subscribe and save is not a subscription offer.

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This is the laziest thing you can do.

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And honestly, if you try to acquire customers purely on lower prices, you're going to be

outspent by the competition.

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They're going to have a better offer, better retention.

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They're going to outspend you.

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You're done.

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So this is where we start.

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It's all about the offer to begin with.

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This is great.

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And this is very timely because actually we've been having conversations about one of our

sites which has a one time purchase on it, but it also has subscription options on there.

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it's interesting, isn't it, this whole idea.

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By the way, let me give a shout out if you are in the subscription business.

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SubSummit, are you going this year?

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Not really, I mean, being a father, I can't really go places.

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Yeah.

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But I want to.

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Yeah, well, it's a great show.

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And I know Paul Chambers is coming on and I know we've had Chris George on and he had very

similar philosophy to what you said Thomas and actually actual fact he almost talked me

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into just doing my supplement company on a subscription only model.

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Do I mean it's like, why would you want to do it any other way?

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Matt and is like, and I

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happened?

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He said he almost he almost turned you into a subscription based business what happened?

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Well, almost turned me into a subscription only based model.

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The way the supplement businesses were, we didn't look in at our purchases.

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Well, to be fair, let me just qualify.

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I would probably think about it more now because such a high percentage of our orders are

now subscription, right?

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So we've converted.

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a lot of our faithful customers into subscription customers.

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So I'm very keen to talk to you about offers and what works there.

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I'm also really keen to hear what you've got to say Thomas about because this again is

another conversation we've been having with our subscription customers with one time

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purchase clients, right?

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And I love my conversation I had recently with the guy, the founder from the razor

company, always completely gone, it'll come back to me.

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He deliberately didn't do subscription, which I thought was fascinating.

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That's definitely worth listening to.

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But the, we found with one-time purchases, it's really straightforward for me to do an

upsell, right?

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And increase the average order value.

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Where we've had a bit of an issue is trying to figure out how do we increase the average

order value on a subscription-based model?

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Do you see what I mean?

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So in other words, with supplements, you kind of go, right, well, I'll take my Omega-3,

I'll take my multivit, and I'll take my vitamin D.

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And that's it, I'll put the whole thing on autopilot.

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So I subscribe to a deodorant company, for example, and every two months they send me out

some deodorant, but that's it, it's a repeat purchase.

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And I think, I don't know how that deodorant company can get, can help me increase my

order value over time.

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other than putting its prices up.

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How does it get me to buy more stuff?

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So two things I want to dig into, how to increase average order value, but let's start

with the offer side of things.

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So you're talking about your first thing you've got to work on is the offer.

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And it can't just be subscribe and save because that's lazy, which I just think is

brilliant.

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I'm totally quoting you on that.

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What else, what sort of things should we be thinking about?

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What have you found work really well?

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Yeah, and there is a very interesting founder course coming out where I'm a guest.

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and it's been taught by the co-founder of Motif Digital, the agency I used to work for,

Jordan Menard.

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Shout out to Jordan, amazing guy.

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So he breaks down this entire subject in a course for the platform founder, if you want to

check it out.

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I'm a guest for like a module.

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But basically the whole point is to create something that...

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adds value to the lifestyle of the person.

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We don't buy a product just for the product itself.

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It supports a lifestyle.

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It supports our identity.

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So things that you can add that support the lifestyle of the person and who you want to

be.

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Number two, things that you can use with a product.

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Very straightforward example.

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You buy coffee, you need a cup.

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You need a frother or whisk.

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Right?

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So this is something that you will need.

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You were going to buy this anyway, or you had it at home.

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but now you have a branded version of it.

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And things that are branded, you show it to your friends.

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And this is marketing.

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You can take a picture of it.

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You know what you can't take a picture of?

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Things that are digital.

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It needs to be physical.

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So anything that can be added in a way where postage doesn't get inflated, you know the

price of posting doesn't get inflated, that can fit into a box as a starter kit, and you

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turn it into a beautiful starter kit, that's a great offer to

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get with.

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But I've seen the mistake a lot of brands make is they add too much value in the starter

kit.

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And by comparison, the second third order don't look so appealing anymore.

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What I alluded to earlier, they cancel because they want to get all the freebies.

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So what we've seen working really well is spacing out the freebies month over month.

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So they have something else to be excited about.

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And basically they gamify the experience.

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block the new freebies.

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It's a game.

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And if you add all sorts of fun activities, post-purchase, the whole thing becomes a game.

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It's who can be healthier.

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It's who can be more loyal, who can not break the streak.

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So you turn this whole thing into a fun lifestyle project, becoming a better self.

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And it all starts with the offer.

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But again, finally, the offer needs to be something that makes sense economically.

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So I'm not going to

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play CFO here, I'm not the person that runs the numbers for the offer.

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I'm a person that is participating in the process of designing the offer.

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But I don't know how to explain what makes most sense financially.

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What I know is once the offer is out, I know how to track the payback period and I know

how to maximize LTV after that.

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And the goal, just like Netflix is trying to push the retention point as close as

possible.

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the first episode meaning retention point is once the person is hooked now and will watch

the rest of the series no matter what they want to get you hooked as early as possible

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same thing for the payback period you want to push that payback period as close as

possible to the first purchase if you can be profitable the first purchase amazing but

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most brands are not so the goal is to make sure and this is a great site for for the AOV

question is to push AOV to push the stickiness of

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product and to get them to commit for longer.

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So yeah, let's back to you now, because if we start talking about AOV, I will never stop.

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And it's going to be a monologue.

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Well, I know we'll get into that in just a second, but I like what you say here because

what I'm understanding here, Thomas, and it makes total sense when you think about it is

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actually take your no brainer offer and space it out.

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So it's a no brainer offer for the first order, the second order, the third order, the

fourth order, and so on and forth.

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And bring those, just elongate that offer so it makes sense just to keep coming back.

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And obviously it's got to work for your economics.

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and you know, work that out.

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But I like it because like you say, most subscribed businesses are all about that first

offer to try and get you to sign up.

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And not so great at then keeping you, you know, giving you reasons to stay really is like,

I don't know.

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And so you do tend to leave, but I do get the point.

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I'm thinking, for example, about this deodorant company, actually they

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they gave you an offer at the start, but they've not really done anything since.

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And I've left it just cause it's on autopilot.

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Would I recommend them as a company?

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You start getting into really interesting existential questions all of a sudden because

of, well, actually in theory, they've still got my business.

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I've not stopped it yet, but I don't feel any brand loyalty to them, if that makes sense.

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I don't feel like they've done anything to...

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to stop me from churning if I find a better product or someone else woos me over here.

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And I think whilst at the moment it's convenient, it's not actually retaining my mind and

my soul other than it's just retaining my wallet because it's super convenient for right

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now.

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Yeah, you're saying that you're not a fan.

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You are just a buyer on auto.

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Yeah, I mean, I obviously like their product.

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I keep using it.

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And in some respects, I like what the company stands for.

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What I've not become is a lot, well, maybe I've not become a loyal fan.

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I've not shared anything out on social media.

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I've not gone and said, hey, you should buy this because it's awesome.

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They've not really done anything to sort of keep me as a customer.

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They don't really email me.

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It's sporadic as to whether they email me to let me know my orders coming out.

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It's just, it's just a bit rubbish really.

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But this is the reality.

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This is what most brands do.

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Mm.

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It's that's why they asked me to come in and build something, system, a proper system that

actually collects data, but actually pushes for an app.

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So all cross-sell that actually builds loyalty, uh, that educates the customer that gives

them a real reason to, to choose to stay subscribed and then to keep talking about the

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brand and bringing more people in.

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This is what retention systems do.

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Most brands don't email.

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don't email enough and they don't build that brand loyalty.

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And again, right now they could have your business and they do because as you said there's

no competition.

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But the moment somebody else comes on board and that has a better product they're done.

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So this business might be dying without them knowing.

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Yeah.

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just because it just hasn't happened yet.

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But wishing or hoping for a competitor not to arrive is not a strategy.

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It's not something the investors would really support.

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So yeah, you gotta be proactive, man.

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You really have, especially in the subscription space, because again, one of the things

that I've learned from certainly people like Chris George is that actually whatever it is

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now, we've got an average of, I can't remember the number, so let's just pick a random

number.

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We've got a typical average of say 20 subscriptions.

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We subscribe to Netflix, to Disney, to Sky Sports, and whatever it is, right?

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So we've got all these different subscriptions.

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We've now got to the point where we don't want any more subscriptions.

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So to take on a new one, we have to cancel an old one.

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It's kind of a mindset that we've fallen in.

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And so the ones that we cancel tend to be the ones that where we just don't have, like you

said, we've not had a reason to stay subscribed.

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There's no sort of real brand loyalty.

361

It's just like, well, I'm now prepared to go through the inconvenience of canceling the

subscription because I no longer want you and I want this one over here more.

362

And it doesn't...

363

And it's not even like Netflix competing with Disney.

364

It's like Netflix competing with my deodorant company all of a sudden, because I've just

maxed out on all my subscriptions, which makes competition, I think, a little bit more

365

interesting.

366

so I'm intrigued by this.

367

And I'm intrigued by these sort of changes in this model and why what you're saying is

becoming more and more important.

368

What you're saying between the lines, what I'm reading is that the product itself plays as

an important role as the brand around the product.

369

Here's an example.

370

You have a dildo, right?

371

But...

372

Will you stop using it?

373

Will you stop using a deodorant overall?

374

Probably not.

375

Coffee.

376

People that drink coffee will never stop drinking coffee.

377

People that take sleeping pills, they will never stop taking sleeping pills or they will

find something that helps them sleep.

378

All we do is basically try to fulfill our existing needs with a better product.

379

So if somebody comes along with a better product, better brand, more fun experience and

does what you

380

want to get better and healthier, you will get it.

381

You might pay the premium, but you're switching from your existing need, a solution to

your existing need, to a better solution.

382

Brands cannot manufacture needs out of thin air.

383

They tap into existing needs.

384

So if something is a luxury in hard times, you might cancel it just because it's an extra.

385

Right?

386

So the product

387

the industry you're in plays an important role in retention, know, as much as the quality

of your offer and everything we're talking about.

388

So sometimes you might have the perfect retention system, the perfect offer, perfect

product, ecological, know, cheap, convenient.

389

But if it's a luxury, somebody might cancel this first when the times get hard.

390

Yeah, yeah, it's so true.

391

So true.

392

So Thomas, let's talk about AOV.

393

Actually, before we do, normally I save this to the end, but it's in my head right now.

394

If you're regular to the show, you'll know, usually not every show, because quite often

I'll forget, but I've remembered today, I asked my guests for a question.

395

And this is quite an interesting point of the show to ask for said question.

396

So Thomas, you said to me at the start of the recording, you're like, I've got my

question, I know what it is.

397

Do you want to know what it is?

398

I'm like, no, tell me in the show.

399

So now is your time to give me your question.

400

Hello ladies and gentlemen, so Matt wants me to ask a question.

401

So Matt, you have recorded hundreds of...

402

of interviews.

403

You have spoken with hundreds of interesting people that are experts and they're amazing

at what they do and they have audiences and they work with amazing brands.

404

You are not a content creator to me, you are a network provider.

405

So how do you think about all this asset that you've built, the network, the side product

of your show?

406

How do you think about it and what are your plans?

407

This is a great question.

408

Very good question.

409

In fact, I was talking to, I don't know, do you know Peter Murphy Lewis?

410

Do you know him?

411

Strategic Pete?

412

He's been on the show before actually.

413

And, I don't know, well, he does play musical instruments.

414

He's also on the TV a lot.

415

And he's, anyway, he's a marketing guy.

416

Anyway, I was talking to him about this very question.

417

So today, this afternoon in fact, it was morning for him, afternoon for me.

418

And so I will answer that question.

419

It will be on my social media channels.

420

Come find me.

421

Let us find me on LinkedIn at Matt Edmundson, or you can find me on Instagram at Matt

Edmundson.

422

I really need to get better at the old Instagram thing, but I'm pretty active on the old

LinkedIn.

423

So come find me there and you'll find the answer to that question.

424

Thomas, thank you for that question.

425

I thought it was a great question.

426

So let's get back into it.

427

AOV.

428

How do I, if I'm a business which is managing my attention through subscriptions.

429

which I appreciate is one specific route to do retention.

430

And obviously a very sensible one.

431

mean, my experience is this has been great for retention marketing is introducing the

subscription.

432

What?

433

How do I increase average order value?

434

Because this for me is a big thing, right?

435

Subscription has its advantages.

436

One of its key downsides, it seems to me, is the ability to easily increase average order

value with upsells and cross-sells and things like that when someone's going through

437

checkout.

438

What are your thoughts on this?

439

Because I have my pen, I have my paper, and I'm very keen to hear.

440

Is it okay to also shout out a few companies that can make this easier?

441

I'm not getting plagued by them, I'm a big fan.

442

To me, it's actually quite easy to get these upsells and cross-sells and increase AOV.

443

So I'm kind of surprised about like the number of businesses that struggle with this,

because to me, it should be more straightforward.

444

One thing that a lot of brands do, and I support this, is during checkout or before

checkout, you actually push for more of the product they're about to purchase.

445

So the good old upsell, you take 30 servings, now get 60.

446

the servings and here's the deal.

447

Or you cross-sell something that fits well with the product.

448

You know on the back end which product goes well with which one from your portfolio and

you create rules where you recommend this product when something is in the cart.

449

So you just need to look into the analytics.

450

Now by now we're talking about once they've started their subscription, the way that I

approach this is in two phases.

451

Phase number one, they haven't received the product yet.

452

see the first order and they're anxious.

453

Is it a good purchase?

454

They're skeptical.

455

Is it the right brand?

456

Is this good value for money?

457

So this is the time to get them to alleviate this pain and to get them to talk about

themselves and reveal their needs because this is going to be the way we personalize their

458

experience later.

459

So I'm always asking right away, right after purchase, send them an email asking for

questions, for a few answers in a survey.

460

And I use these answers

461

personalize their experience later.

462

So armed with these questions, once the product is there, I make sure they share their

enthusiasm in a Facebook group or in an ad, which makes the ad even more profitable

463

because it has sub-social proof.

464

And now these people, they're excited.

465

You've done the right thing up to the delivery point, and now they're excited.

466

But it's not the right time to upsell them because they haven't used the product.

467

They need to feel confident about the product.

468

first.

469

The way that I achieve this with my brands is I do what I have invented this method which

is called bite-sized premium master classes.

470

A lot of brands do the simple trick like send an email with a lot of information or send

an email with a blog post.

471

And they believe that the education of the product is done.

472

People don't consume blog posts.

473

They don't read long emails.

474

They need bite sized information.

475

So I take this existing information and turn it into master classes, usually on Typeform,

shout out to Typeform, where they see a few words in each slide with visuals and they

476

click next and they

477

get spoon-fed, know, small bits and pieces of the education we want them to get.

478

And they start realizing that the product can be a part of their lifestyle, how it helps

them achieve the long-term goals, the time span for them to feel the full effects of the

479

product, etc.

480

At the end of each masterclass, that's where the magic happens.

481

I upsell them.

482

more of their existing product if it makes sense or if I know what their initial purchase

is and collect the right information post purchase, I offer them something that

483

complements the product.

484

And usually people that don't participate in these master classes, they will get a default

option based on what I know historically from my customers and their journey.

485

But what I've seen, Matt, is that 30, 33 % of people that complete at least one master

class, they take the upsell or cross sell, which is huge.

486

So I've basically turned knowledge and education into a

487

event that has day one, day two, day three, and then there is a graduation.

488

And the graduation includes a bundle of badges, downloadables, the next freebie, and a

discount.

489

And people choose what they want, and eventually they get multiple reminders and a fun

system that doesn't feel pushy.

490

And again, a lot of them get the absolute cross-salt.

491

So in fact, that's why once I started implementing this system in businesses, you see that

the

492

upsell, the take of the upsell product increases in revenue more and more.

493

So it stocks up and these people have far superior retention.

494

So this is one of the things that I do.

495

The second opportunity after they complete the master class and a week after the product,

I check in with them again, send them to a good old type form and I asked them about their

496

three main objections.

497

I want to see how well they're doing.

498

I asked them if they feel an early impact in their well-being.

499

or whatever the product is trying to achieve.

500

And I also ask them a question that will qualify them for a cross-sell.

501

For example, let's say I offer a product that boosts your brain.

502

It makes you more productive, more focused.

503

But I also offer products that helps you sleep better, products for your gut, et cetera.

504

I will ask a question that will help understand if the right next pitch is the sleep.

505

or the gut product or whatnot.

506

But I will not ask, hey, would you like this product?

507

I will ask them a question that reveals the problem if they have another problem.

508

And then we follow up with a sequence that pushes what they already told us.

509

So now it's a seamless promotion that is true to who they are and what they struggle with.

510

Yep.

511

Finally, before the first reveal, I will basically do the raise your hand kind of sequence

where I will show what the offer is.

512

It's going to be usually a bundle of multiple products.

513

It's going to be more expensive or it's going to be the product they bought, six months

worth of stock or a year worth of stock.

514

And initially we'll send it to every customer.

515

Later, as I get data, I will send it only to people that have been tagged as likely to

stay on board and not

516

churn, right?

517

If you're likely to churn, it doesn't make sense for you to buy a bigger bundle.

518

Instead, you're to get an offer like a down sell so you don't churn.

519

But initially, I will send this to everyone.

520

So a bundle that upsells you and locks you in for a longer period of time, or a bundle

with more products so you can get the holistic experience.

521

And these people, like the customers, eat them up.

522

They love these products and these offers because they make sense in terms of where they

are.

523

And we personalize the journey based on the signal.

524

they gave us.

525

And as you can imagine, this cannot happen unless you send a lot of email, but the right

type of email, so you can collect all these signals.

526

So taking a step back, brands don't send enough email.

527

They don't communicate with the customers enough.

528

That is a big takeaway.

529

And if you're sending three or four emails post purchase,

530

You're doing it all wrong.

531

Sorry to say, but you are leaving so much on the table.

532

Retention can go much, much higher and cross cells and up cells and LTV.

533

Yeah, that's supreme.

534

Because actually, a lot of what you've talked about there, Thomas works in subscription,

but actually, it would also work in a one time purchase deal.

535

I love what you said right at the start, excuse me, where, and I've not heard many people

talk about it for a long time, it used to be this real buzz topic, but it sort of seems to

536

have died a little bit.

537

And that's the the

538

the period between a customer clicking by now and the customer receiving their product.

539

There's always a period of time.

540

And in the UK, that might be one or two days.

541

It might be three or four, depending on when it was ordered and when it was sold, when it

was delivered.

542

In the States, it may be more, do you know what mean?

543

It depending on the size of your country.

544

So you do have this thing where there is this anticipation.

545

So in my hand, shout out to Tom's Studio.

546

I really like Tom's Studio's pens.

547

I have a...

548

fountain pen in my hand where I write my notes with.

549

I just really like their pens, right?

550

And I ordered this pen a couple days ago, because I wanted one for my office.

551

And it arrived next day, but it was delivered to my neighbor.

552

And I thought, isn't it's just a bit, I really like their stuff and their packaging and

their ethos.

553

you know, I do, I am a bit of loyal fan of Tom Studios, but I'm just a little bit

554

Little bit disappointed Tom Studios if you're listening.

555

There's been no email and and just To what Thomas has said you could have sent me an email

going Your fountain pens on the way Matt this this and sent me two emails the same day

556

that up You know one email the day I purchased an email the day after going This is how to

write with a fountain pen because it does require something a little bit different This is

557

how you clean and maintain your fountain pen watch this video.

558

Give me some nice quirky graphics

559

By the way, if you draw something or write some poetry with it, take a photo and tag us

with it on social media, do you know what mean?

560

Those kind of things, they just haven't happened.

561

And I get it because it's a small company, I guess there's like a handful of people trying

to do everything and you can only do so much.

562

But this idea of sending three or four post purchase emails.

563

especially in that time where I'm waiting for the product and you can turn my fear.

564

I loved how you talked about how you turn their fear or their anxiety into excitement.

565

That was what I wrote in my notes, turn their anxiety into excitement.

566

I love that.

567

And I think it's just a shame we're not doing that.

568

you join me at the moment and any more than we actually are.

569

And I think even just doing that, you're going to have some massive wins.

570

Yeah, and I really want to share this analogy.

571

A lot of brands will say, yeah, but you know, people don't read emails.

572

And you know, all these the old spiel about email is dead for the last 20 years.

573

But email will go to space.

574

But we're still going to use the spoon because it's a proven tool.

575

It's been there for for eons.

576

And the same thing for email.

577

We might still send email to people when we go to space because it's the most reliable

tool.

578

We will never stop using email.

579

So if brands are afraid of sending email, like would you be afraid of like eating with a

spoon?

580

It's a proven tool.

581

Just use it.

582

yeah, very much so.

583

one more thing that a lot of brands are actually missing out on and actually two things.

584

Number one, meet the customer where they are.

585

And number two, tap into their network.

586

You know, has to do with the question that I asked you about the network.

587

Number one, meet the customer where they are.

588

What makes most sense is...

589

If you bring customers from Facebook, from Meta, build a Facebook group and put these

people in there.

590

You will generate a lot of UGC, a lot of social proof.

591

They will do the selling for you because if there are a hundred thousand people on the

Facebook group that love the product, you might think these people know something that I

592

don't.

593

You know, I didn't get the effects of the product fast, but these people did.

594

So I'm going to stick around.

595

So you got a, a never growing cell machine.

596

the Facebook group, you know, so meet these people where they are.

597

But also if you're talking to a younger audience and they found you on a mobile phone,

then create an app.

598

Use a company like Fuego to create an app and basically mirror the website and add

additional features exclusive for the app.

599

Now these people shop and they do things around your brand in their natural environment.

600

But then also make sure that people bring friends.

601

We use a referral

602

because it's very easy and it just does the thing.

603

allow people to talk about your product.

604

Like you talked to me on this podcast and to a lot of people about your pen, right?

605

If the pen company had sent like a referral email, you probably would have taken on like,

know, whatever the deal is and talked about it and then profit from it as well.

606

We don't do these things for the profit.

607

We do it to recommend good products to

608

friends and family, right?

609

So tapping into this, it's just additional marketing that costs you nothing.

610

You already paid to acquire this customer.

611

So why not meet people where they are, create this community that is basically free

marketing for you and tap into the network.

612

These are basic things for me that a lot of brands just haven't tapped into.

613

So just shout out to these amazing companies.

614

And, you know, these are like some quick trips, quick tips that

615

for retention that I want to share.

616

Yeah, no, it's cool.

617

And I'm glad you mentioned referral candy.

618

Raoul has been on the podcast before.

619

Sorry, well, I kicked my bin.

620

Raoul's been on the podcast before and do go check out that episode.

621

Shout out to what those guys are doing there, referral candy, which is great.

622

I'm intrigued.

623

The one thing you said, which slightly surprised me, was the fact you used type form to do

these sort of mini master classes.

624

for 10 years now.

625

Yeah, yeah, and as soon as you said it, I could see it in my head and I thought that's

really clever.

626

I would not have thought to have done that with Typeform.

627

But you know, Typeform's got good APIs and you can integrate it with all kinds of things

now, can't you, and collect that customer data.

628

And I like how you're using Typeform to pre-qualify.

629

So for example, know, on a scale of one to 10, how well are you sleeping?

630

could be one of the questions that we ask, because we have a sleep supplement, for

example.

631

And you kind of go, these guys are not sleeping that well.

632

So I can put them on a sequence which talks about how you can use nutrition to sleep

better, right?

633

So it's a really, it makes a lot of sense to me what you said.

634

And I can see why you like it as much as you do, Thomas.

635

And thank you.

636

Thank you for sharing that and bringing that value.

637

I've genuinely enjoyed it.

638

If people want to find out more about you, maybe connect with you, ask them, maybe they've

got some more questions.

639

Maybe they even want to talk to you about hiring you and getting your help.

640

Or the course that you mentioned, you mentioned a friend's course, but I don't remember

you mentioning what it's called or where to find it.

641

Now's your time.

642

Share all that information.

643

Sure.

644

the best way for people to find out about me and talk with me is through LinkedIn, Thomas

Lalas.

645

I have created a consultancy firm called The Art of Ecomm I'm still building websites, as

we speak, etc.

646

So I wouldn't recommend people to go to my website, it looks ugly.

647

And the course, yeah, under construction.

648

Optimizing.

649

my sites are still under construction.

650

Yeah, and the course that I talked about, the platform is called Foundr.

651

It's the word founder, but without the E.

652

It used to be a magazine, now it's an online platform with courses, consultancy, and a lot

of cool stuff.

653

So it's dropping sometime in March this year.

654

It's all about offers and subscriptions and it's really in depth.

655

Yeah.

656

Sounds absolutely fantastic.

657

And I know the founder goes, yeah, yes, great, fantastic.

658

So we will of course link to all of that in the show notes as well, including Thomas's

LinkedIn, which is we were commenting, whose post were we commenting?

659

But we both commented on Jimmy Kim's post.

660

You should follow him on LinkedIn.

661

He talks a lot about email and.

662

I just really like his LinkedIn post.

663

He just basically tells you off every time doesn't it?

664

It's just really funny and and we were both commenting on that and Yeah, you like we

should talk about this on the podcast So I Thomas is active on LinkedIn come come find him

665

and say how's it and we will of course link to all of that in the show notes, but Thomas

Thanks, man.

666

Genuinely appreciate that and thanks for coming and delivering some great value

667

Loved it, man.

668

It's you're a natural.

669

Again, back to the compliments.

670

You're a natural.

671

You make everything flow so easy.

672

Yeah, well done.

673

Good to see you.

674

I enjoyed that chat.

675

bless you.

676

We should do this.

677

Well done.

678

Let's see applause.

679

That's enough applause.

680

So brilliant.

681

Like I said, we will of course link to all of the information for Thomas in the show

notes, which you can see on the website, ecommercepodcast.net.

682

If you subscribe to our magical newsletter, they'll be in there as well.

683

And of course, I'm not going to try and pull the wool over your eyes.

684

You're listening to this on a podcast app more than likely.

685

or you're watching it on YouTube, the links will also be in the show notes.

686

Just download them or click them in the show notes.

687

Don't download them, just click them.

688

They're there as well.

689

Go and say, how's it going?

690

Introduce yourself to Thomas.

691

I'm sure he'd love to talk to you.

692

But what a great conversation.

693

Now do be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcasts from,

because we've got some more great conversations lined up.

694

And of course, I don't want you to miss any of them.

695

Why would I?

696

And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first.

697

You are awesome.

698

Yes, you are created awesome.

699

It's just a burden.

700

You have to bear Thomas has got to bear it.

701

I've got to bear it.

702

You have got to bear it as well.

703

Now the e-commerce podcast is produced by Podjunction You can find our entire archive of

episodes on your favorite podcast app.

704

The theme music was written by Josh Edmundson and I just one more plug for the website.

705

Get a e-commerce podcast.

706

We never edit these things out.

707

It's just the way we do it.

708

They're just go to ecommercepodcast.net.

709

It's real.

710

It's authentic.

711

That's right.

712

It's just me messing up for the thousandth time.

713

And if you're still listening at this stage, thank you.

714

It's great to be with you.

715

Do like, say like and subscribe to the show, but pretty much that's it from me.

716

That's it from Thomas.

717

Thank you so much for joining us.

718

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

719

I will see you next time.

720

Bye for now.