Small, scrappy indies on the West Coast. Big 5 tastemakers in New York. Corinne Kalasky's worked with both, and snuck stint at a midlevel Nashville publisher in there too. We talk imaginary friends, Poland, prophetic grandmas, violin prodigies, and Instapot marketing victories. Also, I recruit her to co-host the podcast. NBD.

Um, as soon as he did that, the dog started

whining. Oh, he knows, yeah, he knows it's starting, that's

okay, Connor, we love you. Happy Adoption Day. Thank you for your

input, and please refrain from being too upset. We're just

right over here, baby. Okay, so I have Corinne kolasky here, who

is my wonderful coworker at beyond. We're sorry, you can do

whatever you want. Oh, okay, okay, yeah, she brought the

beer, yeah. What is this? Tell us what it

is. Oh, it is a river bend. It's called Life's a peach

and then you die. It's their peach milkshake. IPA. It's very

real good.

Yep. So that's the best way to get into my

heart is to bring the beer, and you were there already.

So oh yeah, I feel the same way about you. Oh my god.

Okay, so we're here to we're talking about

publishing, and I am a, I am a little baby publishing person,

and Corinne has been doing it for a while in multiple cities,

yes, and for big publishing companies, which is very

exciting for someone over in Portland to hear about, because

most of the stuff we have here is pretty small potatoes, but

interesting, yes, but innovative, and also not, I

don't know, incorporated with diet, yeah, gigantic, owned by

CBS. Yeah, exactly, yeah, but yeah. So why don't you start

with telling us why you got into publishing in the first place

and where it all began.

Yes, well, it all began in Scranton, Pennsylvania on the

fifth day of September 1979 so I would say growing up, I was a

shy child, which I think is why I gravitated towards books.

What? Yeah, it's crazy. No, never heard that story before. I

know, but I spent many an afternoon during the summer in

the library reading my books. And I think it probably started

when I was a kid, and it kind of just grew from there. And I

think, like, when you're a kid who grows up with, like, not a

ton of friends, and you're kind of shy and you're lonely, like

you develop this kind of like sentiment, not even sentimental.

I think it was like a real attachment to like books,

because they're your friends. When you don't have other

friends, that sounds really

pathetic. That whole whatever, the 150 people

that human beings, I don't remember the Dunbar number. I

think it's okay, yeah, yeah. So it's like, you can only have 150

people in your sphere, and now they're saying that, like, TV

characters and social media people and book characters,

probably, in this case, it's, it's real.

Oh, okay, yeah. Then yeah, that makes me feel

slightly better. But I think, yeah. So I just think, like, I,

you know, ever since then, I was like, in love with books, and I

was just like, the older I got, I was like, I kind of decided

that I wanted to go into publishing. So I did well, I

should say so. I went to college in Seattle, and I was a

political science major, because at the time, I was very

conservative. So I grew up with very conservative Catholic

parents and I became a political science major because I wanted

to turn progress back many, many

years. Oh, you wanted to convince everyone,

yeah, your way was better,

right? Exactly, yeah. So I did that. And then as the

years ticked by, I was like, you know, I'm not really interested

in politics anymore. So because this is all bullshit, I don't

really believe the stuff I was raised on anyway. So then I

graduated with a totally useless political science degree that I

did not use at all, and I just kind of like got had a bunch of

like, administrative jobs, basically, like, around Seattle,

and I started, like, reading up on publishing, and I got an

internship with a literary agent there, and I got to do, like,

reader reports, and I got to read these manuscripts, and it

was super fun, and I was really excited about it. And I was

like, oh, like, this is what I think I want to do, like, with

my life.

So were you one of the did you start out

thinking you were going to be an editor?

Yes, definitely. And I assume everyone kind of does,

yeah, that's right. It's like, you want to be a tastemaker,

yeah, yes, because, like, that's what everybody wants to do. So

anyway, so I interned for him, and it was just like a boutique

agency. So it was just like him basically running the show. But

I feel like I learned a lot, and it was really fun. And, I mean,

it was like an inch, so I was saying, Get paid or anything.

But I did it, like on the side, and then I researched, like the

Columbia publishing course, and then why you publishing course?

And I was kind of like, you know, what, if I really want,

I'm serious about this, I should move to New York and take one of

these courses. So I applied for both of them, and I got into

both of them, and I chose Columbia. Yeah. So. I went to,

yeah. So I moved to New York with like, two suitcases and

nothing else. And I didn't, I mean, that's it in an apartment,

pretty much true. That's true. So, yeah. So I flew there, and

with my two suitcases, actually, I had four, because my mom

brought two of them too. So I had four suitcases total. And

so, yeah, so the Columbia program was like, six weeks

long. So we lived in the dorms at Columbia, which was like,

fine for most of the people in the course, because they were

all, they just, like, finished college. So they were all, like,

21 so they were used to it. They were used to it, yeah, and so I,

but I was 25 so I'd been, like, living on my own for like, a

while. So that was a little bit of a regression back to dorm

life. I can't imagine, yeah, which was not great, but

whatever it was six weeks it was fine. And I feel like New York

was like, you know, I was 25 it was, like, very exciting. I was

like, Oh my God. Like, I've wanted to be here all my life,

and I'm finally here. And I felt like, Mary Tyler Moore, like,

throwing my hat up. I did not throw my hat up, but I

definitely, like, felt

that like running up the stairs in

Philadelphia.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So anyway, so I did the course,

which was very, I think it was like a good entree into the

world of publishing. I don't feel like it's necessary to get

a job, like an entry level job there at all. I don't think it

is. But I think me coming from the west coast, like having gone

to a state school. I mean, everybody I was in that course

with went to like, a really, like private elite, like Sarah

Lawrence, or something like that. So I was sort of like, and

I think a lot of it was, like connections and all that kind of

stuff. And this was valuable in the sense that I, like,

networked and whatever, and you met, like, people who were, like

the best in the industry, like the, you know, sales people,

like sales directors at Random House, and like, hours they were

all giving talks. Yeah, exactly. So they would come, they would

bring authors into, like, Sarah Vowell came in and, like, did a

talk, yeah. So there was, like, a lot of really heavy hitters,

like in the publishing world, and authors and stuff who would

come to the panels, and you would talk to them, and like,

you know, like hobnob with them. And you felt, like, very

important, which is important when you're 25 Yeah. So I love

it, yeah, yeah.

So you went through the six weeks and then

you did, you get a job right away. I did,

which was, and seemed the whole like the appeal to me

of the Columbia course, apart from the fact that I thought it

had a lot of cache, because it's Columbia, so like, to me, like

being a state college girl, I was like, oh my god, Columbia.

So, yeah. So, I mean, basically they advertise their job

placement rate being like 99% I remember looking at that and

thinking, Okay, well, sorry, elegant, yeah, but if this

doesn't work out, maybe I could just do this program real quick

and meet some people. But, yeah, also house and husband and dog.

Yeah, makes it like, I need to get a job right here. But, yeah,

I remember reading that and being very impressed, yes. So

you got a job. I got a job right away. Weeks after, yeah, like, I

completed the course. So it was for like, a really small book,

PR agency. So when it was like, I mean, it was very small, which

meant that, like, you know, it's like a sort of trial by fire

kind of thing, and I have no idea what I was doing. Oh, like,

they only gave you a certain amount of time and

said, If you suck, you have to leave.

Or, like, no, just sort of like, there was no, no one

there to show me how to do the job. It was just kind of like,

Oh, here's, here's what we think you do. So why don't you just do

this? So it's kind of scary, but it was fine. So I did that just

for like, a few months, and then I was kind of like, you know, I

feel like I moved here to be, like, to work for a big

publisher. So I should, like, maybe apply for jobs with big

publishers. So I did, and I very happily got a job working for

Harper Collins, yeah. So I started in there. I was, like, a

publicity assistant in their publicity department, obviously

the Collins imprint, which is sadly no more, but it was like a

nonfiction imprint. So and I worked on a bunch of different

books. I remember, I was just thinking about this the other

day. I worked on this book called disapproving rabbits,

which was like a blog. I think that they turned into a book,

like, just when people had started, was that like that?

Yeah. That was like 2000 7006,

that whole Julie Julia period, yeah,

whatever.

Exactly, yeah. So I did that. But then I also worked on

books. Like, there was this book called How the states got their

shapes. I remember that, which is now a television show on the

Discovery Channel. Oh, hey, hell yeah. So you must be very proud.

I was very proud of that I got like, a review in The Wall

Street Journal, which was, like, for a publicity assistant was,

like, a big Wait, so you were the one

responsible for actually getting that review? And, yes, yeah,

hell yeah, yeah, which was super awesome. And it's

like, it was tough, because I feel like, you know, a lot of

the books that they give junior level people are like, not, they

don't have many expectations for it. Well, I should say the

company doesn't have expectations for it. The author

has high expectations for every single book. Yeah, yeah. So that

you

go publishing company, I don't care what

happened.

It's true, so I think, but I think that job really

prepared me, too, for, like, dealing with authors and like

learning how to sort of navigate. You know, there.

Expectations and anxiety and anxiety, I don't know, yeah,

yeah. So migos thrown in there, yep, yep. But I think it was a

good, sort of, like, I mean, beginning sort of into that

world, and I had, like, a really good, great boss who was at

Simon and Schuster now, actually, oh hey, yeah, oh yeah,

yeah, yeah. So he's like, he heads up, like, atria right now,

he's like, the director of publicity there. That's right, I

know it's so every time you send out an audience, it goes to him,

Look how far I've come.

So but it was, I mean, I was there for two and a half years,

and I would say it was a really good experience. I was like, I

feel like I got everything out of it that I wanted to get out

of it. I was just, I think by the end of two and a half years,

it was more like I was just kind of sick of New York and being in

New York, then I was sick of, like, the company. Because I

think if I'd stayed there, I would have, like, moved up the

ranks. And, you know, like everybody does, pretty much,

unless you're, like, really bad at your job. But I don't think I

was anyway, but yeah, so after a couple I was there for two and a

half years, and then I kind of did a total 180 and made a

complete lifestyle change and moved to Nashville, Tennessee.

So what was the thing? What was the moment

where you were like, I'm leaving New York and going to Nashville.

Um, I think, I mean, I don't recall, like, one specific

event that sort of made me want to move there. I just think it

was like, and I think people who, like, live there kind of

get it like, it's just like, such a grind every day, like

being crammed in with a million other people on the train, like,

at least twice a day, if you're commuting, right, you know,

having to do your friggin laundry, like at a laundromat,

you know, and like, everything's just so expensive, like, even

getting the airport, like, stupid shit. You wouldn't even,

like, think of everything is a hassle there. So I think I just

got fed up with that. And I was like, I just want a better

lifestyle. Like, I just want things to stop being so hard,

basically. So things were, like, a cheaper apartment, yeah, all

that kind of stuff, basically, yeah. And I was just, so I was

just kind of over New York. I think I was like, I had my

experience, like, it was great, but I'm kind of done with this

so and then I had one of my best friends who remains my, one of

my best friends. So I met her when I worked at Harper. She

worked in the echo imprint there. So they do, like, a lot

of, like, literary fiction stuff. Like, she worked with, oh

my god, I'm gonna try to remember, like, Patti Smith and

like Patti Smith and like Lionel Shriver, who wrote the Kevin

book, whatever. Sombrero. Yeah. So she worked with a lot of,

like, the really fancy literary authors anyway, but um, so she'd

moved to Nashville, like, the year before, and she was just

like, I think you'd really like it here. Like, everybody's

really nice, the food's really good. It's like a slower pace of

life, you know? And I was like, that sounds great. So I went and

visited like, three times, and I was finally like, you know what?

Fuck it. I'm just gonna move. So I, like, went and rented a car

at LaGuardia, and I packed all my shit in the car, and I drove

down to Nashville, yeah, and I just stayed with my friend for,

like, till I found a job.

What is the Nashville equivalent of Mary

Tyler Moore?

Oh, that's a good question. Is it

like Hayden pataneer, sure, yeah, let's say

her Yeah. Juliet Barnes, yeah. I love that show

anyway. But so I lived with my friend till I found a job. Well,

actually, I had like, a couple temp jobs, and then I started

working for an evangelical Christian publisher, which in

Nashville, that's like, kind of the name of the game. They're,

they're, like, the big dog in town. So, I mean, it was

definitely, like, it's a very reputable, well known publisher.

So I think that was one of the first things

that you told me about, and I was curious,

yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it was an interesting

place to work. Like, I think, having come from New York First

of all, but also having been raised Catholic, I sort of

assumed that it was kind of the same thing as Catholicism. Like

I was just sort of like, oh, we both believe in God and Jesus

and like, it's gonna be fine. It'll be the same. And it was

just a very different it was not like that at all. It was not, I

don't know. I don't know. I felt very just like, really, I don't

know what's the right word, just alienating, yeah, kind of like,

just ostracized, sort of, you know, and it was just because I

did, clearly did not believe the same things that these people

did. And I think a lot of it was like a lot of people who worked

there had grown up in Tennessee and stayed there their whole

lives. And so they were, like, you know, from whatever. And I

think, you know, like I was kind of the slag girl from New York

City coming down to, you know, whatever, wow.

So are they, like, a mid level publishing

company, or are they an imprint?

No, they're a mid level, I would say, okay, yeah,

so well, because then they got acquired by Harper a few years

so now they're Harper Collins, Christian, that's what I Yeah,

yeah, so, but that happened after I left. It was like four

or five years ago, so anyway, so yeah, it was, I would not say

that. It was a great experience working there. I think a lot of

it was because I was not Christian, and it was just like.

You're just going to be more comfortable working there if you

believe the things that they everybody there, everybody there

believes and like, that just makes sense. And I will say,

like, my boss, who, like, I adore, and who I still talk to,

told me, like, straight out, like, you're going to have an

easier time working here if you're a Christian. So she

warned me. I mean, it wasn't like I was walking in. I mean,

it's not like you can just change that. Yeah, exactly

right, right, right. And, like, authentically, yes, totally,

yeah, yeah. So anyway, so I was, yes, I was there for, I think,

about a year, a year and a half. And I will also say I just did

not like living in Nashville, I think, like, it was a culture

shock, moving there from New York, and it was tough for me,

the like, religion, the whole Christianity, every single where

it place you look, was really hard for me too. Was that hot? I

heard it was hot. Yes, it's very hot. Also, that was another

thing I feel not like about

it. I mean, we live, we live in Oregon, so, no,

that was very, I mean, right now it's, it's pretty what is it?

It's like 85 degrees and we're dying, yeah,

pretty much. But it's, yeah, it is. Gig does get very

hot there. It's true. So anyway, but it was just like, there are

really lovely things about the South, but it was just not a

good fit for me culturally.

So can I ask a question about kind of how the

company culture was, other than the Christianity aspect was it?

Was it like a situation where it was a fast paced office

environment, or were people, because here in Oregon, at our

job, we're pretty relaxed, yeah, yeah, our boss made banana

splits today. Yeah, that was dope. But I don't know I was

working there similar. Or was it a little more like, yeah, cross

between New York and that?

Yeah, I would say. So I think, I don't think it was as

buttoned up as New York, but I think it was definitely more

corporate. I would say, like, there were a lot more, like,

there was a lot more structure, I think, than where we are now.

How many books per year did they do? Oh, God, approximate,

approximately, maybe, like, 60. It was a lot. It was a lot. And

they had a bunch of imprints too. So there was, you know,

there was a lot there. But they also had, like, a big line of

Bibles too, and they published like, different ones every year.

Like, how do you market a Bible? That's an excellent question. I

did not do marketing there, so I don't know. Wait, what were you

doing? I did foreign rights, yes, which I'm also happy to

talk about. Please talk about, okay, because

I I'm also, from what I'm seeing, there are certain books

that we're not bringing to the Frankfurt Book Fair because

they're specifically American total issues, yeah? And so I

would imagine a lot of the more evangelical Christian, yeah,

books would be not necessarily relevant to a European audience.

Yeah, maybe Australian,

yeah. I would say the Korean market, like, ate them

up. They're all Presbyterian, yeah, yeah. So there were a lot

I was surprised. Like, I feel like it was a really educational

position in the way that I sort of learned, like, which

different markets were receptive to different titles, and why?

Yeah. So it was really, I would say, out of all the jobs that

I've had, like, I did struggle with some of the content there,

just because of my personal beliefs. Yeah, sure. But I think

that it was a really interesting job. Like, it was, you know, you

got to travel. I mean, I got to go to the Frankfurt Book Fair,

which was very cool. I didn't get to go to, I know, I know, I

know. And I got, I didn't get to go to London, because my boss

went to London. But, like, that would have been, but there was,

you know, a lot of opportunity for, like, you know, going to

Poland to meet our Polish, like, you know, agent or whatever, get

back to your roots. Yeah, exactly right. You went to

Poland? No, I didn't, but my boss, like, told me she's like,

you know, maybe someday we'll go to Poland. I was like, great,

and that never happened. But, um, have you been to Poland,

like, ever? No, I might go next. It's great. That's what I

definitely got, really great.

Yeah, I went to Krakow. It was like when I

was studying abroad, yeah, all of the UC people would get

together and go on little trips, and we went on day trips, but we

took one trip to Poland, and it was like a weekend. We went to

Krakow. And the coolest thing we did, I think I told you about

this. We went to the salt mines. Yeah, there's all these like

sculptures that they make out of, like salted Earth. And you

take, like an elevator down, and then there's literally an

enormous Ballroom with a chandelier made out of salt

crystals. It's so cool. That is very cool. Also pierogies.

Oh yes, my favorite. My favorite. But I would love to go

there, foreign rights. Yes, foreign rights. So yeah, it was

probably, I would say, out of all the jobs I've had, that was

the most interesting one. Like, if I had to do it all over and

go back and be like 25 I would probably like be like a literary

scout or something, because then you're so you're just like,

like, you go to stuff things, yeah, look for, yeah, right. And

look for stuff that, like people would be, you know, into that

you think you're gonna sell well, and whatever. So anyway,

but yeah, so it was just, it was a really interesting job, and I

really enjoyed it. And my boss was really wonderful, and she

was just. Very, I don't know she was, like, very nurturing, but

she was also very much like, you work independently and you do

your own thing, and like, if you need help, let me know. But

otherwise, like, you're on your own, you know, whatever she was,

yeah, she was great. So anyway, yeah, so I was there for a year

and a half, and then I don't know how personal you want me to

get

here. I mean, as personally, no.

So, okay, so my mom died in January of 2010 and I

was still working there. And it was while I was home here for

the or home in, yeah, like, basically in Portland for the

holidays. And so I was already pretty miserable in Nashville,

and I was just like, you know, this is another layer of,

probably not a place where you you would want

to deal with your grief, with grief. Yeah, exactly. It was in

that situation when you feel alienated, yeah, totally.

So it just wasn't like, I had, I stayed there a few more

months, and I was like, you know, this just isn't like, not

what I want to do. And I Yeah, so, and it's kind of one of

those things too. I think we're one of those, like, tragic life

events happens and like, you just want to be with your family

because you don't know what else to do, right? So I decided to

move back to Portland, which is where my dad and my brother

were. So I moved back here, and I was here looking for a job for

a few years, and that was, like 2000 10s. It was still kind of

after the recession and stuff. So I think it was still the job

market was still really great, right, right? And I think even

then, like, in 2010 like, I don't remember there being as

many publishing jobs as there are now, like at

all. I guess when I moved here, or before I

moved here, I had this idea that Portland was this very vibrant

literary community, yeah? And I think in a lot of ways it is,

but also that there's that glut, yeah, right? And also they, I

don't know, not necessarily as amenable to a big New York

publishing. Yeah. Point of View, yeah, you're right. I would

imagine, yeah, is, did you interview for publishing? I

didn't

know. I honestly, I didn't even consider Portland,

because I went to school, and so I went to college in Seattle,

and I had a bunch of friends up there, and I was like, Well, I

want to move to Seattle, except that there's no publishing. I

was gonna say, which does not count in my mind. So, you know,

sorry, but they

gotta get, we gotta get somebody from Amazon.

Yeah, we should do. We should, yeah, I know. We'll just, we

should get, like a disgruntled Amazon person, and then like an

Amazon person who's like an apologist, yes. Oh, and then we

should have them talk to each other. Yeah, if anyone's

listening to this, it's that category, please, please contact

because I want that to happen so bad.

So why? Yeah, yeah, anyway. But so anyway. So I

ended up finding a job in or going to a job in San Francisco,

because there is, like, a pretty big publishing industry down

there. So yeah, so I ended up moving there, and I worked for

the super, really small craft book publisher there, so and I

did marketing for them, and a lot of that was like going to

trade shows. So I learned a lot about trade show organization

and event management, and, like, all that kind of stuff, which

was, I have to say, very exhausting. I don't know that

I'd want to, like, have that be a big part of my job again,

because it's just a lot of details, and you always forget

something, and there's always a crisis, and, you know, whatever,

so, but anyway, but I think I learned. I feel like I've

learned a lot in that job, and I definitely did a lot and worked

really hard for them. So I was only there for, like, for a year

or two, and then I worked for this, like luxury PR agency,

which she did, which did some books also. So I worked on,

like, a book from UC press when I was there that was about,

like, climate change. So I did like PR for them, basically, for

them. And then yeah. So I was, let's see, and then I moved on

to work at counterpoint, right, which is in Berkeley, which is a

really wonderful publisher. They publish a lot of really quality

literature. So anyway, but it was like, it's a very small, and

it probably is still super small, but it was a really,

overall, I would say it was a very positive experience. I

think everybody who worked there was also, I don't know, I feel

like, by and large, people don't get into publishing because they

want to make money. It's because I love books. So it's like,

usually people who, you know, work at those, especially the

small presses, are just like, I just really love reading. And I,

you know, wanted, like, devour everything I can get my hands

on, right? And that is one thing, just to go on a tangent

really quickly about like, I feel like people in publishing,

and this is like, remained true for my entire career, no matter

where I've worked, pretty much like, I feel like people in

publishing are especially just like, funny and smart and kind

of weird and just like, they're just, you know, curious people,

yeah, and I think that, like, really, I don't know, like, I

think that kind of, like, sets us apart from other industries,

you know, like, I'm sure there are, like, wonderful people in

every industry, but I don't know that because I have been in

publishing, but I assume that there are, but, yeah, but I

just, I don't found that like for just to be like, people that

I've worked with. And no matter, pretty much any publishing

house, I've just been, like, really interesting, smart, funny

people who I, like, have stayed for like, I'm still really,

like, good friends with people. Like, I just went to the wedding

of one of my friends that I met at Harper, like, 10 years ago or

whatever. So it's like, you know, New York that was, yeah,

yeah, yeah. So, um, anyway, but yeah. So it's like, you know,

that lends itself to long term friendships, yeah?

Well, yeah. I mean, especially if that's the

sort of thing you value in your life, yeah, not just, I mean,

why would you move to why would you move to the Bay Area? Yeah,

and want to make money, right? Go into public

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen. It really

just does not happen. So anyway, so anyway. So then I was at

counterpoint for a few years, and I very sadly, got laid off

because of the realities of the publishing industry. And, you

know, the lack of money, etc, etc.

Well, they seem to have kind of a different

vibe there than a lot of other publishing companies. Don't they

just move through things really quickly. You said there was

something about looking for Amazon keywords, or,

yeah, well, that was a Callisto, which was, so, yeah.

So, like, no counterparts,

very, like, old school, kind of what you

would I was thinking of the wrong place, yeah, I remember

talking about that, yeah. Other thing, the other thing, I was

very curious. So, in your inner it was in your interview that

you talked about That's right, I did, yeah. Now I remember, yeah.

I was just like, what's it like to work in New York?

We don't get a lot of that out in Hillsboro anyway. So you got

laid off?

Oh, yeah. So I got laid off, and then I started working

for this publishing startup called Callisto media, yeah, so

they're still going strong, and they actually have an office in

New York now, so, but when I was there, I did my I was like,

Marketing Manager for them, and it was a lot of like stuff. I

was pretty used to, like working with the authors, you know, like

setting up events, like, kind of, like connecting, I don't

know, like authors with venues, all that kind of stuff. And also

did, they didn't have a publicist at the time, so I was

doing kind of some, PR, Oh, wow. Okay, I was just a very little

bit So, but anyway, so I just had a contract job there that

ended after three months. So I was kind of like, Oh, now, what

do I do? Oh, so. But it was, I will say it was, like, an

interesting experience. It was a very like startup e environment,

where it was kind of like, you know, like people like you, I

sort of felt like I was working in a factory. That's what I felt

like to me. It's too bad, but that's kind of their MO was,

like, they just pump out books. I mean, it's like, so this is,

like, the Amazon keyword thing, where it's just, we do research

on, like, oh, which Amazon keywords are, like, the hottest

or trending or whatever, and then, and then they publish

according to those topics.

So this is part of, like, what I'm trying

to explore with this podcast is the sort of alternative ways of

producing books. Yeah, in the new media space, um, so that's

really interesting to me. And I did you just have like, a list

of writers that you would go to, or did you kind of propose it to

people who you knew were experts in the area and could also

write, yeah, ghost writers who would be like, here, tell me

some things about this, and I'll go write it for you. Like, so it

was, I think the way that they usually did things was

that they would go out and find, like, a freelance writer who was

very like, like an expert in their topic. Like, for example,

like one of the books that I worked on when I was there was,

like, about the ketogenic diet. So they would find somebody,

like, we

drink our beer, I know, right?

Like somebody was an expert on that, and, like, had,

but also, like, had a pretty big, like, social media platform

and, like, all that kind of stuff, um, and then they would

get them to write a book. And the crazy thing about that was,

like, the turnaround time for the book was, like, three or

four weeks, so which is, like, in publishing, you know, I mean,

it actually takes like, a year, if not longer, to,

like, well, that's like, one of the big

things that they're saying about publishing is it's too slow, and

it's not keeping up with the rest of what everybody does,

right? So, yeah, yeah. Did you feel like the books, did you?

I'm sure there's always a few lemons or whatever, but yeah,

feel like there was a few good, yeah, books I came out of that

process,

yes, I would definitely say that there were, I mean,

they know what they're doing. They have, you know, all their

data, like ducks in a row, you know. And they, you know,

they're really

successful. And was it all, was it all

nonfiction? Or yes.

I mean, coming from traditional publishing, it was a

really strange place to work, because it felt to me like, kind

of like engineering these books, sort of, and I have this very

sentimental idea about literature and about the art of

writing, and like the author being, you know, in a like,

cabin by the seaside. I don't know that's how I view my

retirement. Yeah, exactly. Exactly right, right? So it's

just very different from that. And it did feel like we were

just like pumping stuff out, like constantly. But I will say,

one of my great successes while I worked there was they

published this book that I believe is probably still number

one under Instant Pot cookbooks on Amazon. That's huge. Was the

Instant Pot cookbook I worked on that

we love our instant Do you we love it? He

makes these, oh gosh, what does he make? He makes, like,

chicken, uh huh, and it just goes with everything. Yeah? It

just falls apart. That's what I've heard, yeah, yeah. He made

another good thing. Oh no, no, he makes soup, because soup is

my favorite thing in the world. Okay, makes you been the Instant

Pot, yeah? And it just goes so fast, yeah?

That's what I've heard. That's what I've heard, so that

I don't know if it still is, but when I was there, it was, like,

far and away, their number one bestseller, like, by like, a

long margin or wide margin, because, like, I ended up

getting in touch with the person who was, like, their, I think it

was like, their communications manager or something, and they

have a Facebook group of like, 60,000 people, and they're all

like, people are obsessed with their instant pot. They're super

rabid about them. So I was just

still, this is a tangent. Yeah, do you know

whether people still love crock pots as much as they used to? I

don't know. Is this converting? Is this subverting the crock pot

paradigm? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I feel like that's,

maybe that's a food podcast question we can go ask. I don't

know any would know, yeah, yeah, asking when we get out of here,

yeah, making us dinner,

yes. But anyway, but yeah, so, so they like

advertised. They basically like, you know, posted their instant,

the Instant Pot cookbook, on their Facebook group, and it was

just like, sales went through the roof.

Oh my gosh, crazy. Because it was like, How

many times did they post it? They just do, like, I think it

was

just a few times. But it was like, people are, first

of all, they're like, super rabid. But also it was like, you

know that, like, official Instant Pot, you know thing. So

it was sort of like, I think people, I mean, of course, like

that gives them an air of authority, yeah, by officials,

like, you mean that the people you endorse, yeah? So it was

just like, it's not some random person being like, this cookbook

is great. Like, it's the people making the product being like,

this is a great cookbook that's very big endorse. It is so

anyway, but, but yeah, and I believe it is still number one

in that category.

I believe you that cheers,

um, but yeah so, and then they got rid of me. But

really, I think a lot of their because their whole shtick is

like shtick, you know what? I mean. It's like data. You can

state, say anything, yeah, okay, so their whole stick, especially

razors.

I But no, their whole thing is like, data, and that's

really all they care about, is like, you know, data, so I don't

know,

please sponsor me.

So anyway, but you

know that that clearly works because, yeah, I

know that with the books that we do, you have to kind of think

about, how do I convince I've been writing tip sheets all

week. How do I convince people that this is something that they

want, and this is like, we've already figured out, yeah,

because of our data, that people want this, and we've acted

accordingly,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I'll give them a lot

of kudos in the sense that, like, I feel like they found a

space that was kind of vacant in the industry, and sort of

inserted themselves into it, and they seem to be doing really

well. I don't know. I'd be curious to know, I guess, like,

how traditional publishers perceive them, right? Because, I

know, but a lot of you know, a lot of people that I worked with

there also came from traditional publishing

backgrounds, right? Was everyone kind of

baffled and walking around wide eyed.

It was a lot of, I mean, it was a very like

startupy environment, and that, like, people worked really long

hours. Did you guys have ping pong table? We did

all pins and no brand

like beer on Fridays. So

talking about how traditional publishers were

working there traditional publishing people, yeah, there,

right, right.

And I think they kind of just got used to it after a

while. I mean, that's what I assumed it was, just like I had

the perception that everybody was working really hard all the

time because the deadlines were really short, and everybody's

working on a bunch of projects at once. And I think the like

the writers, like the freelance writers, were probably super

like, you know, trying to meet those deadlines too. Did they

get paid? Well, they did. They did so they could compensate. It

really well. It's not okay, yeah, it's, I mean, it's

definitely worth their time. I mean, that's better than Fiverr,

yeah, yeah, yeah, so, but it's just yeah. Like, for me, coming

from traditional and also, like, as I said, being sentimental

about books, like, it was just a very weird environment to me,

but that's just me. I mean, there are

people that at a house your soul

Exactly, exactly. But I think, like. Are people that I

worked with there that are still there, who obviously, like,

enjoy it, and are doing well and have been promoted and whatever.

So I think it just depends on, you know, what you what

publishing. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like

sometimes it's just like books are like such a sounds so

cheesy. I'm gonna hate saying this, but like, it's okay, books

are like, such a big part of who I am, and there's such a big

part of my identity. You know that it's hard for me to just

see them as, like, commodities. I think, yeah, you know.

And I think that's something that's really

happening, especially the people I talk to, who are, you know,

writing self published stuff, yeah, is the fact that it's all

controlled by Amazon as well, is it's being kind of race to the

bottom, yeah, you know what they say, like, about most things

involving capitalism, right? Like, okay, everyone starts

doing it, and then you can find anything anywhere you want,

yeah? Basically, everyone's just trying to low ball each other,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you think that was something

that played into this kind of book, or do you think you were,

like, a few steps above that,

um, I don't know. I mean, I think it's kind of

something that played into that. I would say, I think, like, you

know, for a lot of people, it's like, you know, publishing is

just like a living, and it's just a job, and it's, you know,

whatever. And I think they're, I don't know, like, it's just

like, to me, it feels like it's this very, I don't know, like,

personal kind of thing, you know where it's like, and you're

probably the same way, you know where it's just like, I feel

like it really matters to me, like it's just something I

believe in very deeply, and I think is really important.

Can I tell you something? Yeah, kind of weird

that I never told anybody always Hey, Internet, Hey, Mom.

Actually, my mom said this my grandmother. My mom told me that

my grandmother, at one point said to her, like, well, Emily

should be working in publishing. That's what she's supposed to be

doing. And I like, remember my mom reporting that, relaying

that information to me, and me being like, Oh, I mean, yeah,

theoretically, that sounds kind of nice. And then I tried to

work in, like, social service type stuff for a while. And then

I was just like, I really want to start doing more, you know,

editing and design. And then I was like, I want to work in

publishing, yeah, Grandma speaking to me from beyond, more

Catholic Stuff. It's cool.

Wait, so How old was she when she made that

prediction? Oh, well. I mean,

I don't know when she actually said it. Yeah.

Okay. Either 70s. Oh, early 70s. Wait, so before you were, no, I

was, I was, I was alive. Oh, okay. Like, I mean, she was born

on Halloween. Oh, shit, sorry. She's not a real witch. It was a

joke, yeah, just Irish, yeah. But it was like, we got that

whole like, Oh, we're Irish witches. And I feel like that's

a lot of the reason that I have a good time in mind, body spirit

is because it's one of those, oh, we have an intuitive stripe

to our background. So, you know, all the my mom and my grandma

were like, I'm very devout, but also I have senses about things.

So grandma was right, yeah,

she was Yeah. And that's, that's cool, yeah,

that's yeah, I love your grandma. Yeah, she's right.

Wait, she's sorry. Oh, she's passed away. All right, I was

gonna say we should have her on the podcast.

Oh, my God, I love what I'm talking Well, I

mean, we could have a seance, and then she get mad at me for

having a seance, and she'd come and she'd be on the Ouija board,

like, why are you on a Ouija board? You're going to attract

demons. No, no. That would be what would happen. So, wherever

you are, Grandma, thank you, yes,

for your predictions. Yes. I thank you as well.

Now we're interesting publishing, that's

right. Yeah. So you got done at Callisto. You came back

up here, right? I did. I had a job for a few months. I

worked, actually, for this very cool company that was like,

like, kind of like a film collective in San Francisco,

like you've told me about oh, yeah, I did. Oh, you did tell me

maybe.

No So, but yeah, I did. I'm not making this up. I believe you,

but they did a lot of it was like a nonprofit, so they did a

lot of work with, like, I don't know, like, what's like refugee

like centers and stuff like that. So they do a lot of, like,

asylum seekers, kind of, yeah. So they did like a project with

them. They did a lot of like different these were documentary

kind of, yeah, basically. Okay, so, like, when I was there,

like, the biggest thing I did there was, like, there was this

man who was like, God bless him, like, 90 years old. And there

was this film they made about how he, I think, was during,

yeah, it was during World War Two, and it was the Potsdam

Conference. So it was like, Truman Stalin and Churchill,

that's right, so he, yeah, he was there, and he was, like part

of the entertainment. So he was a violinist, so he played a

violin concerto or whatever for them. So they made a documentary

about this guy, basically. And, oh, I should also say that

Mickey Rooney was part of that band, so that was kind of cool.

So he just kind of like, danced around out

in front, yeah, like, pretty bad noises, yeah,

that was more or less, yeah, yeah. So anyway, but

there's a documentary about him, so, and there was, like, it was,

like some sort of, felt like a Jewish Film Festival. While I

was there that was, like, doing this big showing of the movie

and stuff. So I had to organize, you know, like, the event before

that, and the showing and all this kind of stuff and whatever.

But it was really cool. But I got to, like, drive him, the 90

year old guy and his wife, his wife, down to like, I think was

in San Jose or something, and he was very sweet. And, like, he

played, he played like during the while you were driving in

the car. But he played like during, like, after, after the

documentary, he played and it was driving. He's like, 90 years

old, and he's still, like, no. I mean, he practices, like every

day, and he just, yeah, I felt very inadequate after, like,

seeing him, like, being a 90 year old man playing the violin

every day anyway,

but, and I feel like people who play violin

are a special breed of people very devoted to their art.

Yeah, yes, totally agree. Um, so anyway, yeah. So,

like, that was one event, and there were other, like, various

events that I did that I'm of course, blanking on now, but it

was a very cool place to work. And I feel like the people were

who were like, working there were like, super passionate

about what they did. It was like a nonprofit. So again, nobody's

making any money,

right, obviously, right. So, well, I

mean, that's an important story to be,

yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they did a lot

of kind of, like community outreach work and all that kind

of stuff. So, but anyway, so then I worked there for a few

months, and I was kind of like, know what? I can't really afford

to live in the Bay Area anymore. Nobody can. Yeah, it's just,

it's like, prohibited, prohibitively expensive, like

living there anymore. It's just, like, unless you work in tech

and you make like, even, well, I guess, like, people who make six

figure salaries, can't afford to live

there, so guy, yeah, exactly. These are people

who are consultants, right? And stuff like that, yeah, yeah. I

mean, I feel like that's what we're turning into, yeah, I

learned, yeah, totally.

So, yeah, yeah. So I will say like I did really love

so I lived in Oakland, which I loved. I San Francisco. I was

kind of like on because I felt like the character of the city

was probably very different from the way that I had thought that

it was going to be. So I moved there in 2012 when I'm sure,

like the tech bros had already started taking over. So it was a

very like, different from what I was expecting. But Oakland was

still a very kind of like down to earth and normal. And just

like regular people live there, you know, and you have to have a

million dollars to buy a condo or whatever so. But anyway, so I

was there for five years, and then I moved back up here,

because my dad lives here, but also because I really love the

Northwest. And like, I got, you know, like I lived in Seattle, I

went to college in Seattle, and I lived there for a while

afterwards. And it's just like, probably my, one of my favorite

places in the world, in the country, for sure. It's my

favorite place in the country, for sure. So it just feels very

much like home to me. So I was kind of like, well, I go back

there. So anyway, so yeah. And then I interviewed for a couple

different jobs, and I got this job, yeah. And I like it, yeah.

Like, you know, I'd never worked on mind, body, spirit titles

before, so I feel like it was kind of like a little bit of a

learning curve, like, right, like what the audience is into,

like what they respond to, what they buy. But, I mean, I feel

like it's an education every day, but it's interesting. And I

think that, like, you know, most of the authors I work with are

really, like, kind people who really care and, like, want to

help other people, which I think is, like, very commendable. So

yeah, and I get to work with Emily, which is clearly the best

part of my job. I make a long shot. She makes it super fun.

Oh, I forgot to say, which I probably will

say in the bumper. But like, Corinne is the marketing

coordinator. Yes, I am. And we are saying the name of the place

where we work, because all you have to do is Google me. Yes,

know where I

work. So, right, so fine. I was gonna say what might

be sort of interesting to talk about is maybe how we both got,

like, interested in Mind, Body Spirit stuff and, like, why

we're in my biosphere publishing or not?

Well, I mean, I think we're both in mind,

body, spirit publishing because we wanted to live in Portland

and have a job.

Yeah. I mean, that's true,

but I think that might be something for a

future episode. Oh, okay, all right, then we'll save it,

because I feel like we could

talk a lot. We could definitely my way out.

Yeah. Yeah, anyway, Corrine, come back.

Oh, I certainly will. This has been a pleasure, a

pleasure and a half. All right, okay, okay, we're done. Okay,

you.