Many of the common challenges that the families I work with are facing can be traced back in some way or another to a boundaries issues. When you work with your family the informality or lack of boundaries can be empowering, it can be what sets you apart as a family business. However, it can also be what creates the tensions that if left unchecked can lead to full blown conflict and the potential demise of the family business. 

I am really pleased to be joined by Melissa on this episode to discuss the importance of boundaries and provide some practical examples and steps as to how you can start to introduce more formal boundaries within your own family business.

Melissa Mitchell-Blitch - Family Business Consultant and Author of In the Company of Family: How to Thrive When Business Is Personal.

A former CPA, her career started at a Big 5 accounting firm. As part of the Family Wealth Planning group, she saw the challenges of family business and family wealth. The cons often overshadowed the enjoyment of working with family. She was convinced there had to be a better way, but could not find anyone who could help navigate the intersection of family, business, and wealth. Determined, she left her career in finance and earned a Master's in Psychology.

In the almost two decades since, Melissa has learned how families can thrive, even when business is personal.

In the Company of Family: How to Thrive When Business Is Personal.

When you work with family, business is personal. That can be a dream or a nightmare. What makes the difference? Knowing how to navigate well your differences and the multiple roles you share.When you are family, coworkers, co-owners, differences abound — opinions, values, preferences. How can you keep differences from being divisive? Through real-life case studies, In the Company of Family reveals the principles of boundaries, which will help you thrive even though business is personal. 

You can buy a copy of the book here for those in the US and here for everywhere else. 

IFB Conference

Although we live in times of incredibly rapid change and uncertainty, one thing remains true: there’s power in people coming together. So, join me and the IFB on 10 June 2021 to explore a broad range of topics linked to the theme of 'Destination: Future'

You can buy tickets here.

Work With Russ

If what I have spoken about in the show resonates and you want to discuss how I can help you and your family business drop me an email: russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com

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Hello, how are you?

I hope you're doing well.

Um, just a couple of things before we get into this week's show.

Firstly, I just want to say thank you again to those who are, Supporting

the show via the, buy me a coffee link and leaving your reviews on iTunes.

Very much appreciated for those who may not have heard.

You can now support the show.

So if you are liking what I'm doing, you want to buy me a

coffee in inverted commerce.

You can do so now via a link.

It is balmy a coffee.com forward slash fam biz podcast.

Um, very much appreciate those that have done so already.

So thank you very much.

secondly, I just want to make you aware of an event that is coming up.

In June, it is the IFB national conference.

The title of the conference is called destination future.

And the topics that they are going to be covering is looking at how

to navigate the uncertain world.

We now live in to ensure the business stays strong for generations to come.

how your family business can remain agile whilst carrying forward its legacy.

And why sustainability as a family business is imperative.

the event is on the 10th of June.

It is a virtual event.

And it is open to members and non-members alike.

So if you interested in going along, um, I will be there.

I'm really looking forward to it.

you can find out more on the IFB website, which is I F b.org.uk.

I'll also put a link in this week's show notes.

So you can click on the link.

If you head over to fanbase podcast.com forward slash boundaries, there'll

be the show notes for today's show.

Plus the link to the IB conference.

Uh, hope to see you there.

Now, this week's show is a conversation with Melissa Mitchell Blitch, who is

a family business advisor like myself.

Um, she had authored a book that looks at the importance of boundaries, and

I think it's a really interesting and really relevant conversation for

us to be having a lot of times the people that get in touch with me who

are looking for, um, help or support.

is because there is a blurring of the boundaries between family and

business, and it can be really tough to know how and when to stop putting

more formal boundaries in place.

And this was a really interesting conversation with Melissa.

Um, I hope you enjoy it because.

I think we covered some really relevant aspects of day-to-day life

in family business, and the ways in which you as a family can help

to make lives easier for yourself.

If you are having some of the difficulties that we talk about in today's show,

um, As ever, if anything that I do talk about resonates, please do get

in touch because I am here to help.

Um, I'm really grateful to those that have already been getting in

touch over recent weeks and months.

and I'm glad to be able to help wherever I can.

So please do so.

And without further ado, I will pass over to me introducing this week's show.

Welcome to this week's episode of the family business podcast.

I am delighted to be joined this week by my guest, who is Melissa Mitchell.

Blitch.

She is a family business consultant and author.

And I will introduce Melissa and let her give you a bit of background

about who she is, what she does, but firstly Melissa, welcome to the show.

Very glad to be here, Russ.

. And as I say, it'd be great for our

or history, how you came to be doing what you're doing today.

Before we get into what we're going to be talking about which

is the importance of boundaries.

I'm glad to, well, Russ like many folks who serve families

in business, it was not a linear path for the work that I do today.

For me.

I started out as a CPA and estate planning.

I worked with one of the big five accounting firms in the U S and really

planned for that to be my career.

I love that with estate planning, it's complex.

There's a lot of creativity because there's not one right answer.

And the families that we work with had had significant financial success.

Most of them as a result of a family business.

And that's where I got a glimpse into the lives of what

it's like to work with family.

And I saw the real challenges with those overlaps of lives, with

the financial success, with the opportunities that it brought.

And it's, I just wished for our clients that there was a better

way to do businesses and family.

But this was the late nineties and we did not have Google.

And I went looking for it.

I didn't quite know what, but someone who might be able to help families with

the complexities of wealth and business.

And I couldn't find anyone for a number of years and eventually

just felt like, all right.

This is a real need.

It's not going away.

I am increasingly passionate about it.

Maybe there may or may not be anyone else.

They worked in this space out there, but I feel called to this work.

So I left my career in finance in 2003.

Focus full-time on getting a master's in psychology, spent

some time as a counselor, getting experienced with individuals and

couples and families and groups.

And then in 2010, launched the practice doing the service that I

hoped in the late nineties, someone would do helping families with the

complexities of the intersection of family relationships, well business and

all the complexity that that brings.

And so that is my work.

Today, and I'm excited to share, you know, through more last two decades

in general, but then specifically the last decade, working with families

and business, excited to share with you and your audience today, some of

the strategies that I've found to be the most transformational, and I don't

use that word lightly for families to be able to navigate those differences

more effectively, have healthier relationships as a family and, you

know, working together in the business.

Navigate conflict better.

Keep differences from being divisive.

There are some simple, practical, not always easy to implement, but simple

strategies we can share with your audience today to help them learn how

to thrive as a family and a business.

Brilliant.

And I'm really excited to get into some of those before we do.

I think you picked up on, on two really important things in, in your

introduction is firstly that there is help out there for families that are

having challenges around the specifics of being in business with your family.

And secondly, how young, the sort of world of understanding of family business

actually is in comparison to how long family businesses have been around.

There's obviously been family businesses for many, many centuries, but it's only

really over the last few decades that we've started to see this emergence of

the sort of understanding of the issues and challenges that are being faced.

And more people who are able to help and support families with those.

Challenges that come inevitably will come from being in business with your family.

Absolutely.

I was very relieved along the way to discover that there have been

advisers in this space for decades and to have the opportunity to learn

from them and be mentor to them, preparing to do this work myself.

But I'll say it's not uncommon for me to meet families and business.

And for them to be like, I didn't know, there was someone to help with

the relational side, the complexity of doing family business with family

70 folks don't even realize still.

That they're really specialized help for them.

Absolutely.

So getting into some of the sort of concepts that you spoken about in that

introduction that the topic of today's show is the importance of boundaries.

Before we sort of dig into some of the detail on that.

I think it'd be really good to just outline an

understanding of what we mean by.

Boundaries, because there are various different meanings across whatever

topic you might be talking about.

So land boundary is this line on a, on a map, for example, when we're

talking about family businesses, what do we mean by the term boundaries?

Well, Russ, I am glad that we are starting here because there are a lot

of misconceptions about boundaries.

I will tell you that as I've worked with folks and they've gotten to understand

what boundaries are and are not folks become fans and raving fans of boundaries,

but that's not usually where people start, because there are a lot of

misconceptions they think about, you know?

Yeah.

Actually I'll start with your example.

We are well familiar with, you know, boundaries outside of us

and not in our relationships.

You mentioned, you know, boundary of a land.

We like that.

We like to know where our property line ends our responsibility.

In the example of the stripes of paint on the road that tell, you

know, millions and millions of cars, this is your lane stay there.

It's a very simple.

But highly effective boundary.

We love the boundaries work for us in all areas of our life.

But somehow when it gets translated through relationships, there, it

gets distorted where it seems like boundaries are about being selfish,

being harsh, you know, restricting others and those sorts of misconceptions.

And they are misconceptions because at the heart of boundaries of boundary to me, The

working definition that I like to share as a boundary is anything whose purpose.

This to let in the good and keep out the bad.

And so if you consider that in your relationships and in, in relationships,

we are individuals in relationship.

And we think about what we'd like to have things working

for us that let in the good.

At the individual level and at the relationship level and keep out the

bad, I think most folks would say yes, but there's that hurdle, first of

getting past the misconceptions that some how boundaries and relationships

are adversarial or restrictive over walls that once folks open

up, they're like, Oh yeah, I see.

Yeah.

And I think as well, I love the example you gave of the line on the road.

And if we just delve into that a little bit in terms of.

Taking that analogy forward.

Prior to that.

This is a really obvious statement prior to there being lines on the road.

They weren't lines on the road.

And what was happening is that people were having accidents because they

didn't know where to sit on the road, but where to be on the road.

And so those boundaries were introduced in order to help avoid.

Those accidents don't it doesn't guarantee that they won't happen at all, but it

does help to avoid those accidents.

But using that example as well of the wall being a boundary, it wouldn't be

appropriate to put a wall in the middle of a road because that makes it as

dangerous as not having a line there.

That's all.

So I guess if we're using that analogy, an appropriate boundary,

I guess, is what we're advocating and not saying you have to put this

extreme wall up where line we'll do.

Is that a fair assumption?

Absolutely.

And I love that illustration.

I like to use a lot of metaphors because when we can see something

in the natural, it can sometimes help us to understand those more

invisible boundaries like with people.

And so.

The term that came to mind when you're using that description

is the minimally viable option.

So whatever, you know, whatever tool is as, as effective.

But a fish hunt as well.

If we put, you know, in some places actually in the, on the

interstate, in the us, we'll have, you know, concrete barriers.

So you put more resources, more time and energy and concrete and steel into

those, putting some, you know, concrete barriers between those lanes because.

The risk is greater because the speed and the volume is greater than on your

typical, you know, town or country road.

And so you're tapping into some wisdom of boundaries.

It depends on what you're wanting to protect.

How valuable is that?

And then what is the risk against it?

And that's how we decide, you know, what boundary makes sense.

Perfect.

And perhaps if you've had some examples to share what other sort of signs

that families might spot to say, okay, maybe we need to start talking about

the introduction of these boundaries or those types of discussions.

Are there a sort of a list of problems or challenges that they might be

facing that are telltale signs for you?

For me when there is unresolved conflict and when differences that truly aren't a

matter of right or wrong become divisive.

Those are always, you know, cues to me to listen out for and to ask about

challenges with, with boundaries because differences are normal.

And so conflict is natural.

The result is not to eliminate conflict there.

The, or the goal is not to eliminate conflict.

The goal is to learn how to learn when there is conflict, there are conflicting

values or preferences or priorities to learn how to navigate that well,

to reach sometimes what I described as a mutually agreeable solution.

Because sometimes in relationships in order to have a relationship

and especially to have a healthy relationship, we need to prioritize

way above me, but it's not always ended every time, but being able to

have some principles to guide us and willingness, you know, knowing to.

That is sometimes it's important to, to be flexible and to compromise.

But again, the term that I like more is that mutually agreeable solution

to know that differences are normal.

Conflict is natural, but how can we keep differences from being

divisive and actually resolve conflict, move through it.

And that's one of the things that the principles of

boundaries can help families.

We're an out of date.

And I guess this again is a very obvious statement, but the fact that

there are differing roles and multiple roles within a family business, perhaps

lends itself to the fact there's likely to be more potential for conflict.

So not knowing whether you're speaking to each other as family members,

as co-owners or coworkers within, within a business or any mix and

match of those sorts of combinations.

Can naturally lead to an increasing tensions, right?

Oh, absolutely.

So roles, right.

Responsibilities and relationships.

I call them the four RS are all a function of have boundaries.

And within, I was going to say within family business, but actually if we

start just in life, we know that we have different roles that we operate in.

For example, you know, how I may interact with you as a, you know, in

a friend role would be different than how I may interact with somebody.

Let's say I'm in a courtroom, I'm still me, but I behave in

certain roles with the front way.

And even if you know, you and I are hanging out as pals at a dinner

party, our interaction together will be different than if you and

I are at a friend's a funeral, you know, a friend or a colleague.

And so there are natural things in everyone's life, different roles,

different activities, where we modify our behavior and how we interpret

the behavior of other people.

So with family businesses, you know, there's an additional way they're doing

business as a family that they have, they have that role together, but not everyone

has that because it's the same person.

It can be hard.

And, and there's such a history of maybe such a comfort there in the relationship.

It can be hard to remember, Oh, I am in.

Work mode.

So how want to interact with my aunt Sally?

Who's my boss, Sally.

I need to be sure that I stay in, you know, employee, you

know, role I share in the book.

An example of a father and the son that working together, of

course, in a family business.

And the father corrected the son in front of some of the

coworkers, the employees, right.

He never would have done that with another manager, but he did that with his son

just because, you know, my guess, you know, just kind of, I mean, I'm his dad.

I can make that correction.

And while the son was Berry.

Eager to understand what he had done wrong, you know, and willing to take

personal responsibility for that.

It really hurt him that his, his boss, his father had done this in front

of others, treated him differently, like poorly, less well in front of

others and was really hard about it.

Not because of the correction.

Because of how it was handled, it was handled differently than him

than the father would have treated any other manager in the company.

We can forget it.

It makes it harder.

When we work with family to remember what role we are and that there are

different ways of behaving and treating each other and interpreting the behaviors

of others based upon the role that you're in, there's black and white.

And of course, a lot of gray and in a family business.

There's a whole lot of gray.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And picking up on that example, where in your work with families, where do you

start in helping them to overcome it?

Because obviously that's created a, a tension that that's made

the son feel a certain way.

The father at the time may not actually have known that he was

going to make his son feel that way.

It was just something that came.

Naturally to him that you felt was okay to say that in front of the management team,

but how do you then start to tackle that?

Because it could be very easy to go to dad and go, we know you upset

him and DECA go well, and then kind of forget about it and move on.

How do you kind of get the emphasis behind the need for creating the

sort of minimum viable boundary to help move things forward?

Well, I'll say it depends.

And it depends, you know, on who my relationship with with is

with who my, who is my client.

Most often I work with the, with the family unit, with a family business.

And so I'm working with multiple generations, but sometimes I

do and next gen coaching even sent senior gen coaching.

So it depends on who I'm working with and obviously the best case scenario.

Easiest, you know, is when the whole, whole family has law has developed

the common language that come with the principles of boundaries, because

then they have that shared objective language that they can use to understand

what's going on between them and pick, communicate that between them.

In this example with, with the sun, what I did with one of the things that I did

with him was to help him prepare, to give the feedback to his, his father,

because he's like, you know, surely my dad's going to recognize, you know, that

he, he, he was out of line in what he did and he gave the dad a couple of days

to come back and apologize, but while he was waiting and when that didn't

happen, it just, the anger started to build in him because he was so.

You were so hurt that it happened and so hurt the, his father

didn't even realize in hindsight.

Oh my goodness.

And so I shared with him a tool of making this boundary visible.

Now he would assume and rightly so that his father would recognize the need.

She correct anyone at that manager level in private.

But somehow, you know, that boundary gotten fuzzy.

Maybe we can get data benefit of a doubt.

And so one of the principles set boundaries is making

those boundaries visible.

Not assuming that others will know, you know, how we want to be treated.

And so I'll work with him to make that boundary visible, to

let the father know how it had impacted him and what he wanted.

The father could do differently, not just apologize, but you

know how to give him correction.

And one of the ways that sometimes conversations break down and

conflict resolution breaks down, is that asking for what you want?

Sometimes we assume if I tell you what, you know, my interpretation of what

happened and how it, you know, impacted me, sometimes we leave it there and assume

you're going to know what I want you to do, and you're going to agree to do it.

You're going to do it.

Yeah.

And so part of the process working with, with Paul, who's the name

I use in the book, not the real name is to share his desire.

To be explicit of here's what I want to, here's what I'd appreciate

if you did, and to get feedback from his father to say yes, no.

Or maybe, or, you know, but to have that explicit conversation about

how they were going to repair this boundary violation and what boundaries

they were going to mutually agree to for themselves going forward.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And again, you utilizing that example and just kind of running through how

the conversation may have gone with the father, if the son goes in and

goes, yeah, And then leaves it there.

What the dad could interpret from that is you can't give me

feedback on how my performance is.

That's not that that's something that I'm not accepting, or you

can't do it in that forum or link.

Okay.

Then which forum can I do it?

There's those gray areas again.

Whereas I think what you're saying is that I didn't appreciate

you doing that in front of.

The management team or my coworkers, I would much prefer if we were able to

have those conversations in private, in this kind of format, in a work

environment, et cetera, et cetera.

Is, is that a fair assumption on what the steps that could

be taken to help resolve that?

It is.

And hopefully it would go well like that, but to be honest, it doesn't always work

that way in on the word can't, you know, really in coaching Paul, I wouldn't, you

know, if he said, I want to go to my dad and say, you can't treat me that way,

I would call to his attention to that.

Obviously he can, because he did.

They said that word can't we don't, we can't genuinely, we're not able

to set boundaries for other people.

We can't control their behavior.

The father could continue to treat Paul that way, anyone else, that

way, and even worse because he is responsible for his own behavior.

But what we want to do again for the sake of the relationship is to ask

everyone, to give them a chance to say yes, no, or maybe this instead.

And then to remember, because we, we teach people how to treat us.

And so we can ask for what we want and we get to choose for

what we, what we put up with.

So if Paul had asked his father to treat him a different way, and the

father said, you work in this family business, you know, you're going to

have to take it or leave it, you know, all made aside to take it or leave it.

That would be his, his choice.

But that recognition of I, my boundaries are for me.

Or I can only set my boundaries and we can work together as in a

relationship to, to agree to and develop the boundaries between us.

But I can't set boundaries for you.

I can't determine control your behavior.

I can ask you to behave a certain way, but you have the responsibility

and the choice to choose how you.

Behave.

And then I choose there are natural consequences to that.

I choose then how I respond.

And again, picking up on the language point is such a, an important point.

Is that the language that we use can.

Either inflame or diffuse situation and going in with a, perhaps a more

aggressive approach runs the risk.

I mean, every family is different, but it runs a risk that, that

doesn't help resolve the situation.

In fact, it inflames it more.

And again, one of the things that you spoke about in in the role

of boundaries is how to keep.

Differences from being divisive.

And that example is a very specific example of you know, Paul feeling that

he, he shouldn't be spoken to like that way in that environment, but there

will be other more nuanced differences that if left unchecked can lead to

divisive opinions much further down the line again, are there examples

where the use of boundaries helps to.

Position those differences in a different way or help families to address those

without it getting to the point where there's a big bus stop at the end of it.

Well, it's interesting that one of the principles of boundaries that people get

the most excited about is responsibility.

Because it's to do with recognizing what we are responsible for, you know,

in, and oftentimes what families and businesses struggle with is being

honest about their, their boundaries.

Being honest with their yes and their no, because they don't want

to hurt the feelings of others.

Well, that's a good thing.

It's a good thing to not want to hurt the feelings of others.

However this in the natural, you know, comings and goings of life,

we'll all be hurt and sometimes hurt such as getting disappointing,

you know, performance feedback, getting a no you're not ready yet.

That hurt can be the impetus that leads us to, you know, Grow and learn so that,

that, no, not yet can turn to, to a, yes.

So hurt is a natural part of life.

It can be a helpful part of life.

It can be a necessary part of growth.

And so recognizing that I am responsible for me, my thoughts,

my feelings and behaviors.

I'm responsible to our relationship, you know, to hopefully treat you with

respect, then the way that, how I'd want you to be, I would want you to

treat me and to honor the fact that you have a right to be a separate

individual with your own priorities and values and different preferences.

To me, if we can recognize I'm responsible for me, I'm responsible

to our relationship, but I'm not responsible for the thoughts,

feelings, and behaviors of others.

It can be a really empowering.

Not in a selfish way, but it clarity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause again, you using an example of that, Paul, maybe feeling a certain way about.

What's happened with his father and then he might start having a conversation

in his head where he goes, well, this is what I'm going to say, but then dad

would say that, and then it turned into this now, but actually I'm not going

to bother saying anything right now because I know what's going to happen.

I know what the outcome's going to be.

And I'm not up for a fight.

I'm not, I'm not, I haven't got the strength to have

that argument at the moment.

But, but all, you know, up until that point is what it is.

You want to say beyond that it's beyond your control and that responsibility of

understanding that you're only responsible for how you bring that to the conversation

rather than the reaction and everything else, I think is such a valuable point.

If we, you know, the best predictor of the future is the past.

And so you can understand, we can understand how Paul May have that,

that thought and that hesitancy, and just say, I'm just going to, you

know, I'm just going to let it go.

And we do, we pick our battles, but that's a wise thing to do.

However, what I often see with families is, is how that can lead downhill.

We're, you know, we're not, we don't make a boundary visible.

We don't, you know, let someone know how something impacted us.

We don't ask for what we want and those things, those little

choices, just add up over time.

And our relationship ends up drifting to a place of lower health,

lower enjoyment that it could be.

Probably if we started to have an open, honest conversation about what's going

on between us and what's working and what's not, and absolutely Paul could,

he could hit it out of the park and be very, you know, speak the truth in love

with his father and give him that if I can ask what as for what he wants and

he could nail it and the father could still say, You know, give a response

that Paul doesn't want just because we don't get the outcome we want doesn't

mean that we've made the wrong choice.

And just because we don't get the short-term immediate outcome that

we want, it doesn't mean if we.

Keep doing the same sorts of things that something may not change over

time, or, you know, that even in that situation, that the dad may come back

to the day later and say, you know what I've thought about what you said

and now, so doing the right thing is always the right thing and doing it

both from the motive and the delivery.

So often when someone hurts us, we can.

We can hurt be hurtful in our words and our helm back to them and

essentially do to them what we're complaining to them about doing to us.

And so it was helpful for Paul and I to have a conversation and, you

know, some time to prepare him for the conversation and to let that intensity

start to come down some so that he could then go back to his father exercising.

The three F's fair firm and friendly.

As opposed to, from an angry and oftentimes, so bare firm and

friendly is another principle of boundaries that the folks really

take to the alliteration helps.

But each of us, you know, has a natural tendency to either do friendly well or

well, Yeah, but they're all important.

And each, you know, in situations, one may be more important than the other,

but Paul got to a place where he could be fair, you know, give his father

objective feedback to let him know what happened in Nashville, what he wanted.

He could be firm.

You know, I really call the stand up.

We can call people out or we can call people up that I know that you would

not have treated anyone else this way, call him up, betrayed his son,

you know, in that higher standard.

And then, you know, friendly as well again, because he was not

reacting from a place of hurt.

He had prepared his words.

He had broken his heart.

He had prepared his motive to go in there wanting to seek a mutually

agreeable solution with his, his father.

And a lot of the time when I'm dealing with families in similar situations, it

can be the first time that somebody in the let's call it on the next generation,

that the so the son in this example, or the children It's the first time they've

really stood up to their parents, their father in that scenario and having

that framework and the principles in place is, I mean, it doesn't do the job

for you, but it helps you with those.

Guide rails to say, if I follow these steps, I know why I'm doing it.

I don't understand why I'm doing it.

I'm doing it in a way that I think is fair.

That is firm, but he's friendly then it, I guess it's a little boost up towards that.

Big moment of actually standing up to somebody who you've not,

not done that to perhaps before.

One of the things that I love about the principles of

boundaries is they are principles.

They're guiding guide, like you're saying they're guard, guide and guard.

They give folks a mindset, a framework to think about the

decisions, the opportunities.

The responsibilities and the rights that they have to help them, you know,

decide how they're going to respond as, so I love that the principles of

boundaries are not a one size fits all, you know, formulate approach because it

really can then equip families because they're gonna, you know, there's some.

Challenges that we can absolutely anticipate, but then, you know,

there'll be nuances or, you know, variables that, that are unique.

And so I love that the principals give families, guidance, thinks

through weigh the options, make the decisions for themselves and then

take responsibility for what they do.

Yeah.

Cause you can imagine it as a script.

Could you as an alternative to that, isn't it a script and you've got.

DIA, and then a gap for the name of the person that you're talking to.

And then these are the words, and that is, this is how I feel

and the challenge with that.

And I'm not advocating that approach in any way, shape or form.

But if it was a script, if anything, deviates from that at all in that actual

conversation, then you're completely unprepared because all you've done

is prepared this script and this one, linear, this is how you do it approach.

So I think the, the guidelines approach and the principles approach

to it means that there is open to interpretation and nuance and applying

it to your own situation rather than a rather extreme example of.

Here's a script of how to, how to challenge your father, because I can't

imagine that going well in any situation.

Well, and it, it actually, it may even go well on the

outside, but not on the inside.

And so while I am a huge fan.

Of communication skills, because if we can't communicate well, we, you know,

we can't have healthy relationships.

I don't dump into, you know, like I statements or even active listening

oftentimes with families, because that may look like you're, you

know, from the outside you're quote unquote doing the right thing.

But on the inside of, I mean, I can use I-statements and on the

inside of me, I can be just as judgemental and harsh against you.

As ever, but just when I start talking to you about it, put a nice statement on

it, you know, I can appear to be actively listening and, and of course, you know,

genuinely, actively listening is, is an action, not just an appearance, but

I can appear to be actively listening.

And on the inside of me, I'm just fuming and preparing the

next thing that I'm going to say.

So I actually enjoy being a little bit of a contrarian to wait for communications.

Gills and tell folks have an understanding of, of boundaries for that purpose.

Because when we understand the principles of boundaries and we put

them to work for us, things like using, I-statements speaking for

myself, I can only speak for myself.

Things like actively listening, genuinely wanting to understand

your perspective because yeah.

You have a right to, even if it's different than mine, even if it's

contrary to mine and let's listen together and work together for that mutually

agreeable solution, good communication practices flow more naturally.

Once we have healthy boundary principles working for us.

Yeah.

Completely agree.

And we've covered a few of the principles of, of boundaries.

Are there others that kind of leap out at you in terms of.

The commonality of how, how they can be used for the families that you work with.

Well, just in thinking through the answer.

So we had talked about consequences.

We've talked about good and bad out fair firm and friendly,

hurt versus harm responsibility.

We've talked about making boundaries visible just to highlight how in

our natural conversation we've illustrated at least those different

friendly principles of boundaries.

There's actually a fourth F flexible.

Like stability is an important aspect of boundaries in the book.

And when I work with clients, I actually set up, right.

Because it's easier to learn how to be flexible when we have clarity as to what

the boundaries are, you know, because.

Consistency is also important and differentiating between a flux and

an inconsistency is really important.

So it's important to be flexible.

And I have a collection of rubber bands of different colors with, and sizes that love

to use again, a lot of how the physical and teach us lessons with folks and,

and I'll stretch, you know, rubber band.

To illustrate, you know, it's, it's meant to have that as a

part of its function where, you know, healthy boundaries do flex.

They're not rigid because if it was rigid, it might be, it might break or

things against, you know, it might break, but like a rubber band it's meant to

flex, but then come back to its natural.

That mentioned if we stretch and stretch and stretch and stretch the rubber band

or our boundaries, and eventually they will lose their elasticity, their ability

to come back and protect, you know, keep letting the good and keep out the bad.

They'll lose their ability to function too, in the way that

they're meant to, to function.

And so flexibility is an exception.

Not the role.

There's really an art to learning how to do it well, and to communicate

that this is a flex, so it's differentiated from inconsistency because

inconsistency can be very confusing.

Yeah, very much so.

And I think, again, really very key point on the flexibility side is if you just

keep stretching it it can lose it to less density or staff and that doesn't do

anybody any good on, on that side of it.

One of the again, more common areas in family business, where

there is the potential for.

Tension or challenge is when it comes to working with siblings.

And again, let's take a typical example of eldest child being the one that takes

on the senior role in the business.

When the senior generation move on and the younger generation, perhaps feeling

they're more appropriately skilled or more appropriate for that job.

Than their older sibling, how can boundaries be used in those

scenarios to help those siblings deal with that challenge?

Let's say there's a couple different parts to that, you know, and, and warm part

is for the family business to decide, you know, how it's going to promote.

It's like, you know, is it going to promote based on per Forter, you know, or

is it going to promote based upon merit?

And it can be helpful to make that boundary visible if it's going

to be promoting based upon merit.

So that is, you know, here's the expectations for, you know, advancement

and progression and promotion.

It's good to make those boundaries there's expectations visible.

So everyone knows it and it can be easier to make those decisions.

Yeah.

When they're objective when there aren't names attached to the decisions.

So that's the proactive in a choice of families and business can, can make.

But then, you know, between it, it gets into that, the differences.

So growing up there's siblings, it may be, you know, the older sibling got

more rights and more privileges and more opportunities, you know, like at

any given point in time, because of the age and the maturity, however, in

the business role, you know, business typically promotes not based upon, you

know, Calendar age, but based upon skill.

And so having again, that mindset that the business, even the family business has

a right and maybe even responsibility to promote based upon ability and skill is.

So while it may hurt, To not be chosen.

It may be disappointing to be passed over, to be told no, or not yet to know again,

for the viability of the business, even the family business, there's a right.

And even a responsibility for the business can stay in business and benefit the

family to operate as, as a business.

And not again, there's dynamics that they may, may be accustomed to when they're

interacting with each other as a family.

And in an ideal world, and I know we don't live in an ideal world, but in an ideal

world families and family businesses would be undertaking these types of exercises

before the tensions or challenges come up.

Now we know from our own experiences that that isn't always the case.

It does happen, but it's not always the case.

Is there a, a trigger point in your mind where you feel

actually now's the time for it?

Not to go beyond.

This stage because it could lead to a much more divisive and

conflict ridden relationship.

And again, I know it's nuanced.

I know each, each family is different, but are there triggers that can be spotted?

That is just a way of raising it a, say a family meeting or a board meeting

to say, actually, I think we need to start looking at this side of things.

I want to say the best time is now because we don't live in an ideal world.

If we did, you know, being proactive to put in those protective boundaries,

to make them visible, obviously, you know, would be best practice.

However, you know, life has lived forward and understood backwards.

And so the best time to start doing things that could help us to thrive as a

family and a business is, is right now.

And I'll often hear families say, you know, we're a family,

we can work through anything.

You know, they'll resist the work, putting the energy, the time, the money into doing

the work in advance, because we think we'll figure it out when we get there.

It'll be okay.

You know, even if they don't think it's just going to be, you know, all glorious

and we'll, we'll immediately agree.

They believe they'll be able to work through it.

And maybe they can.

The my feedback to them is to remind them of the purpose of boundaries,

the, and the good and keep out the bad protects things of value.

So you believe you can work through anything because you value family

relationships because you value family relationships that make sense to put

safeguards in there to protect them.

Why go through the wear and tear again on them that you don't have to.

And so invest time, energy, money.

Thought decision-making into agreements in advance so that you're protecting.

Those family relationships that you love and preventing some of the wear and tear

that you might experience anyway, and that you very well may be able to work through.

However, might it be nice to minimize that wear and tear on the family by just making

some objective decisions beforehand?

There will be.

There can be, you know, again, situational variables that makes

sense too, to consider being flexible.

Yes, but again, it's easier to make decisions when names

are not attached to it.

So having some broad, even some broad guidelines can be so helpful, both

for the decision-makers quote unquote and the folks who are going to be,

you know, Quote unquote, the subject of, of those decisions separately.

Everyone knows, you know, what is as expected.

Yeah.

And I think that, again goes back to the analogy we use right at

the beginning about the lines on the road as a starting point.

And then as the freeway grows and you need to the higher levels of

protection and more concrete and steel you can adapt that as you, as you go

on Just just one more question and played devil's advocate slightly here.

Is what do you, or do you come across resistance from people who will

say boundaries are just going to a break on our ability as a family

to deliver what we want to deliver?

The fact we love being in business with our families, that we don't

have these rules and guidelines and things around us, because it means we

can make, I dunno, quicker decisions or better decisions as a result.

There can often be in my experience, a resistance to some

more formalized stuff, because it.

It's seen as a break on behavior rather than as an enabler.

Do you come across that?

I do.

And it taps into actually what we were just talking about.

Might it make sense to have some guidelines, to protect those relationships

and allow you to keep cruising?

You know, when these, when these, when this next decision comes up, it could

also be a factor of what we talked about early in the show, have some

misconceptions about what boundaries are.

They're not aggressive.

They're not about putting restrictions on people.

They're about letting in the.

Good and keeping out the bad.

So oftentimes it's, it's any number of things that leads to that sort of,

of mindset, but people have a right.

They have a right to say, no, I don't want to be more intentional

about the boundaries that we have.

We all have boundaries.

That's the other side of the coin is we may not be, you know, a lot of us

don't go through our day with that word in our mind, are these gut principles

guiding us through the day, but we have.

Boundaries.

And so we have a right to be unintentional about them and we will experience

natural consequences of those.

Some, we may like some, we may not like, but you know, that's, again, it

goes back to the responsibility and honoring are I honor and accept your

right to say no, I'm not interested.

Yeah.

That's okay.

That's your rights.

Yeah.

But there will be, you know, there are consequences to every choice that we make.

And I know you and I both in value, you know, we want family, but families and

businesses to thrive as a family and a business and we value proactivity.

But we also respect the family.

We cover our right to say, we want this.

We don't want that.

And, and make their choices.

Yeah,

fantastic.

Brilliant.

I have loved this conversation.

I think it's a fascinating topic and for the benefit of our audience, where

can people find out more about you about the book and how can they get in touch?

Absolutely.

So my website is Melissa Mitchell Blige.

The name of the book is in the company of family.

How to thrive with businesses personal and it's available

worldwide through amazon.com.

Fantastic.

And we will provide links in the show notes.

So if people are listing and have access to the show notes, you can just click

on the links there and find those.

Melissa, thank you very much for your time, your insights

and sharing your experiences.

As I say, great conversation, and I'm sure will be hugely valuable to our audience.

So thank you.

Russ, I have appreciated the opportunity to get the word out about these

practical principles of boundaries and the difference that they could

make for families and business.