Today's conversation is about the modern need for integrating catechism into the discipleship process, particularly in light of the cultural pressures that seek to dilute the essence of the Christian faith. Travis Michael Fleming is joined by Trevin Wax and Thomas West to discuss their new book, The Gospel Way Catechism, as a fresh approach to an ancient practice, aiming to provide believers with a new and relevant framework for understanding their identity in Christ.

They emphasize the necessity of countering the dominant narratives of contemporary society with the transformative truths of the gospel. Through their discussion, they advocate for a holistic approach to catechism that not only imparts knowledge but also fosters a deeper relationship with God. This conversation is a call to action for church leaders and laypersons alike to embrace catechism as a means of spiritual formation, encouraging a return to the core principles of Christianity that can guide and sustain believers in an increasingly complex world.

Takeaways:

• The Gospel Way Catechism serves as an accessible tool for discipleship, aiming to ground believers in fundamental Christian doctrines amidst contemporary cultural challenges.
• Catechism, often perceived as antiquated, is in fact a vital means of instruction, promoting understanding of the gospel story over prevailing cultural narratives.
• The authors emphasize the importance of counter catechesis, which critically engages and challenges cultural ideologies that conflict with biblical teachings.
• A significant objective of the Gospel Way Catechism is to encourage Christians to live out their faith distinctly, embodying a lifestyle that reflects the transformative power of the gospel.
• The catechism is structured to address contemporary anthropological questions, providing clarity on identity, purpose, and the Christian worldview in a secular age.
• The authors posit that effective catechism develops both knowledge and a culture within the church that resists secular influences and promotes gospel-centered living.

Sign up for our Blueprint cohort.

Get The Gospel Way Catechism

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

Get Travis's book Blueprint: Kingdom Living in the Modern World.

Join Travis's Substack, Deep Roots Society.

Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Today's episode is generously brought to you by the Lindenmeyer family. May the Lord bless your household, guide your steps, and reveal his presence in every part of your lives.

Catechism is. It's an ancient tool of discipleship that needs to be dusted off and reused.

And it's, I know for some people it's a scary kind of word, but at the end of the day, it comes from a word that just means instruction. And it actually, even though it sounds like it's, oh, that must be for the super Christians, it's actually meant to be super accessible.

I mean, that's the whole point of a catechism, is it's a question and answer, simple question, simple answer that you're supposed to be able to commit to memory.

So the reason that we wanted to dust off this tool and we wanted to do something for our contemporary age is we have tons of respect for Christians throughout the centuries who have found this to be a helpful way of showing what the basics of Christianity are as opposed to whatever's going on culturally in the world.

Welcome to Apollos Watered. In the Ministry Deep Dive podcast, we tackle the big questions few are willing to ask about ministry, culture, and the challenges you face every day.

Ministry is hard and the road ahead isn't always clear. But with God, nothing is impossible.

We come alongside pastors and ministry leaders like you, exploring obstacles and covering opportunities, sharing practical ways to thrive. Our vision is simple to see thriving ministry leaders and churches noticeably transforming their world. So let's dive deep together.

Refresh your soul, renew your vision, and get ready, because it's watering time. Welcome back to Ministry Deep Dive, the podcast that takes you below the surface to explore the heart of ministry, theology, and life with God.

I'm your host, Travis Michael Fleming. Today, we're diving into a conversation that is not just timely, it's urgent.

We're talking about discipleship, we're talking about gospel formation, and we're talking about equipping leaders in a culture that's constantly challenging the way we think about our faith. This conversation matters because ministry doesn't happen in a vacuum. Every day. People are being shaped by their culture.

Their school, media, and even their churches.

And the question is, who is guiding their faith and to what end?

Today, we'll explore how gospel centered teaching can equip pastors, ministry leaders, and everyday believers to engage the world wisely, faithfully, and biblically. And before we dive in, I want to let you know that we have our blueprint Cohort starting up November 1st.

You can sign up through the show notes, this is a great opportunity to grow in your leadership, discipleship, and ministry skills alongside others who are serious about following Christ in all areas of life. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Trevin Wax and Thomas west about their book, the Gospel Way Catechism. Happy listening.

You know, catechism might seem like an old word, but it's one of the church's most ancient practices, passing down the faith. For centuries, Christians used catechisms to ground new believers in the Gospel, shape their imaginations, and form their lives in the way of Jesus.

And now, in our cultural moment, we are rediscovering this ancient practice today because our people are being catechized. That's not a question. We know that they are. The question is by who and by what?

Because every message in our world today is shaping what we believe, what we love, and how we live. And that's why the Gospel Way Catechism is so significant.

It's a fresh, faithful resource designed to help Christians of all ages be formed by the gospel story rather than the world story. And I'm joined today by its authors, Thomas west and Trevin Wax.

Trevin Wax, if you remember, is vice president of Research and Resource development at the North American Mission Board, widely known for his writing on discipleship and cultural engagement. And Thomas west, pastor of Nashville First Baptist Church, where he's leading one of the South's historic congregations and gospel centered renewal.

Together, they've brought ancient wisdom in today's world. And I'm excited to talk to them about why catechism matters now more than ever. Gentlemen, welcome.

Thanks for having us on.

Yeah, really glad to be here. Thank you.

Okay, so we're going to start off with the Fast5. Get to know you a little bit. It's been a while. So how about this one? Number one, first question, who would win a one on one basketball game?

Trevin? Thomas?

Oh, Thomas. Have you seen our sizes?

How tall are you, Tom?

Okay. How tall are you, Trevin?

Yeah, probably five seven on a good day.

You know, I had Brian Fikkert on once. Have you ever met Brian Fikkert?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's huge. He's 6 10. He's 6 10. He's massive. I want to call him Eclipse because every time he stands in front of me, I can't see the sun.

All right, number two, you're introducing someone to your city. So here we go. Nashville, Hot chicken or Southern barbecue?

I mean, Thomas, you're downtown on Broadway. What's your answer to that? I have my answer.

It's hot chicken every time. And it's Prince's, not Hattie B's. Prince's is the original as well.

That's right. It's Prince's, not Hattie B's.

You know, I've never had this hot chicken. Never.

We'll get you over here. Let's get into it.

You need to try that. And don't. Just because someone else in some other city calls their hot ch. Sandwich Nashville Hot Chicken.

Do you believe for a moment it's actually Nashville Hot Chicken? Let me just say that.

Tell the man was. That's right.

Okay.

All right, question three. What's the one app you wish Christians would delete from their phones?

No. TikTok. Yeah, that's an easy one for me.

Yeah, that's assuming Christians are on TikTok.

Oh, no, they are. They are. I'm playing.

I'm playing, I'm playing. Guys, I don't know. I'm going to give you a different answer with. With all due respect, I. I think.

I think Facebook ought to log you out at a certain age. I'll just. I'll just leave that there. I think there's an age cap.

I think you get a notice five years out, three years out, two years out, and then it's just gone.

Can there be. Can there be a. An age requirement at some point on Facebook where lurking. Only. No more commenting. Like, can we. Yeah, there we go.

There we go. Your sleuthing privileges are granted.

Yeah.

But no longer will we hear your voice anyways.

Oh, that was.

Are we off to a good start? Is this the way it's supposed to go?

This is. This is. This is how we roll here. This is how we roll. This is how we roll. Okay, how about this one? Here we go. Next question. Question 4.

If your catechism had a movie trailer voiceover, who would you want to narrate it?

Oh, man, it's Morgan Freeman. It's Morgan Freeman because we use his voice like we. We quote Invictus in the very first section. And there would be an irony to that.

That would be beautiful.

I would. I would want James Earl Jones.

Keep going, Trevin.

No, I would want Liam Neeson because I want. I want the voice of Aslan. Right.

Or you've got. What is that other movie he did? I'll know you and I'll find you. Okay.

It wasn't just one movie. That's like. How many has he done? Like four?

Oh, gosh. Who knows? Who knows, who knows? All right, here we go. Number five. Finish the sentence. The biggest lie our culture catechizes us with today is what.

You are the center and point of all things.

Oh, yeah, yeah. About you, Thomas.

Freedom is possible and it's just not. We're all living in service to someone or something, but freedom from all constraints simply is not an available option. It's a mirage.

Those are both good. Good. Unexpected, but good. I like that. Well, let's jump in. Let's talk about the gospel way. Catechism.

I mean, you both wrote a catechism at a time when that word feels both ancient and unfamiliar. But we know that it's being rediscovered in so many different circles. Why catechism and why now?

You know, I think was it the. The last time we talked, Travis? I think I did a book called the Thrill of Orthodoxy. So the first question that you.

Similar in the sense of orthodoxy, same kind of word catechism is it's an ancient tool of discipleship that needs to be dusted off and reused. And it's. I know for some people it's a scary kind of word, but at the end of the day, it comes from a word that just means instruction.

And it actually, even though it sounds like it's, oh, that must be for the super Christians, it's actually meant to be super accessible.

I mean, that's the whole point of a catechism, is it's a question and answer, simple question, simple answer that you're supposed to be able to commit to memory. So the, the reason that we wanted to dust off this tool and we wanted to. To.

To do something for our contemporary age is we have tons of respect for Christians throughout the centuries who have found this to be a. A helpful way of showing what the basics of Christianity are as opposed to whatever's going on culturally in the world.

And if you look closely, every catechism is doing that at some level. And so that's what we wanted to do for our day and age.

Say, what are the cultural narratives, the worldviews, the things that, that we as Christians need to be aware of? And how does our faith, what we say, we believe, how does it actually counter some of those things and make us stand out?

That's great. Just to go a little more with it. Yeah, yeah.

Just to.

Just to go a little more with it. You know, in catechisms were. Were written, I'd say, for two reasons.

One, to try to distill down what are the core essentials to what we believe as Christians, but in our specific tribe and our specific stance and understanding what are these core, Core ideas? The other reason was to distinguish what the faith is over and against other alternatives.

So around the time of the Reformation, we see Luther and Calvin.

Drawing out catechisms is a way to establish everyday Christians in the faith, a simple discipleship tool, but it's given to us to help us understand this is where we are as Protestants over and against where others are as Catholics. And it always had a counter element to it. So catechesis is always counter catechesis.

And what we're doing in this specific catechism is we're building on the great catechisms that have gone before us, not looking to clear up theological heresy or theological confusion, but cultural heresy and cultural confusion.

I find that to be very comforting, especially that you're trying to do it in an accessible way. I remember when my daughter was little.

She's married now and finishing grad school, but I remember when she was little, it was kindergarten, and I don't know why, but there wasn't a. There weren't a lot of catechisms necessarily around, like, accessible, like we have now.

So I was trying to teach her some of the Westminster standards, and she was in kindergarten, which I don't know what. You know, you can just imagine the problems that come with that.

But I put it into a song, and she still remembers it to this day, you know, like the light of nature in man and the works of God plainly declares that there is a God, but his word and spirit only do effectually reveal him unto us our salvation. So we were doing that with Westminster back in the day.

And honestly, you know, she didn't know what she was saying, obviously, but this is trying to make it much more accessible because you're right, people are today are being catechized. The question is, is by who and by. And what are they being catechized by? But today I want to talk about, just for a second.

I mean, we talked about, you know, what are the apps we want people to remove? So we've got YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, newsfeed, news feeds.

So how does this book, though, this book right here, Gospel with Catechism, help shape our people for good?

Yeah, the. I think if I'm going to answer that, the simplest way I know how is that it comes back to the title in that it's.

When we talk about the Gospel way, we're not simply talking about things we believe to be true. We're talking about a way of life that separates us from the world, that makes us shine like stars in a crooked and Perverted generation.

As you know, Paul wrote to the Philippians. We, you know, the early Christians were called the Way for a reason.

It's because what they confessed about Jesus, who is the Way, the truth and the life was not simply a mere ascent. So even though we're talking about memorizing questions and answers, and that is fundamental to a catechism, I mean, that's the point of it.

Like you did with your daughter, which I will just say, very impressive way of taking difficult old language and putting it to a tune of some sort. That's really.

He made that thing, brother.

Yeah. I'm like, man, we. Yeah, we need to, like, work on our, like, musical version of this catechism.

Yeah, I'm calling.

You know, do you guys know that. Have you heard of Streetlights at all? Ministry Streetlights.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. So those guys that you should get them to do the catechism because they could put a little music underneath it for you, you know, bring it down.

I'd be totally good with that. Like, look, I'm. For whatever it takes to get it into your head at the end of the day that.

That does a great. They do a great job with that because we had them on the show, so it was like, this is cool. Like, my kids, like, you know, like, hey, get the.

Like, even I want to listen to the New Testament like that, you know, or even the Old Testament. It's like, it's got a little hip hop. It's a little weird sometimes. You're like, you know, you hear this kind of. This beat underneath it.

As they talk about dashing the infants on the rock. You're like, okay, that's a little weird, but you get it.

You know what I mean?

You got these Old Testament passages.

Psalm 137, right?

Yeah.

It's like. It's there.

It's there.

I mean, the Psalms, every month, you're gonna. You're gonna deal with it, you know.

Might as well keep it. But people know it.

Yeah, they know it. They know it.

Yeah. That's the coolest thing. Well, okay, so walk us through the structure of the book.

Because I. I started off, and I gotta tell you, I was a little skeptical. I was a little skeptical. So I'm like, okay, because we've got different catechisms that are coming out here. And I was like, all right.

We kind of start off, you know, just generic. I don't wanna say generic, but general theology. And you work your way in, but you guys kind of build the crescendo.

You're Bringing itself to the new creation. I thought that was really great.

You don't see that as often just because many of us are still dealing with old ministry methodologies and perspectives and paradigms and we're discovering something that was ancient and bringing it back, which I really liked. But why did you structure the book the way that you did?

Well, we started with God because the whole point of this catechism is to be counter. And everything in our world, like I said, is saying we're at the center of everything, right?

You are the one who determines your destiny, your identity, all of that. So we start with God first and foremost.

So that even the structure of the catechism is God centered and is kind of countering this idea that that man is the measure of all things. And we unpack that a bit to show, you know, and trying to not just do, oh, generally speaking, who is God? But also showing, hey, who is God?

Over against what cultural conceptions of God are like.

If we talk about God the Son, if we talk about Jesus, what's the difference between what the Bible says about Jesus versus what you hear in culture about Jesus? So, so that's kind of the first section. Then we go into purpose and identity.

And I'll let Thomas speak to this a little bit because we were very, we knew when we were mapping out these questions and answers, we're going to be, we're going to be asking some questions that are not in the traditional catechisms just because of the, the, the nature of the, the age we live in.

So I mean, Thomas, you want to speak a little bit to the purpose and identity section because we probably, we probably spent the most time there in terms of prep.

Most, most time for sure. Part two gets into creation and identity.

As Trevin has said before, all of the, all the real challenges facing the church in Western culture today, they're anthropological. The theological questions that need to be answered, the challenges that we need to pin back, they're all anthropological. Who am I?

What make, like, what makes me special? What is a human? What is sexuality? These are core questions that we're asking today. So it's interesting, right?

Calvin and Luther, really sharp in their own time. They just didn't have to answer those questions because they weren't questions being asked.

We recognize the real challenges against the church today are anthropological in nature. So we asked questions in rapid fire succession. Why did God create the world? What is the unseen world? Why did God create us? Who are we?

What is sexuality? What is our responsibility? What is work? What is rest? What is freedom?

And then we get into sin and we follow up the biblical story arc from there, taking it all the way. But it was amazing.

I felt like we had four, maybe five questions just trying to unpack Genesis chapter one, 26 and 28, the cultural mandate, trying to unfold that for Christians, because these are the questions that are being asked. You spoke of your daughter there, a 9 year old and a 12 year old, you know, around the breakfast table in the morning and the dinner table at night.

These are the questions that we're begging for answers for. And we just need to bring forward a simple introductory discipleship tool accessible to all people. Here it is in question and answer form.

And you did that. You really did.

I had Christian Smith on not too long ago and we were talking about why religion went obsolete in his book, which has got all these, you know, a web of factors where we at. And it was seeing just the anthropology behind it.

I remember Dan Strange talking about that where he's like, you know, the question of the first millennium was what's the nature of Jesus? Second millennium, what's the nature of salvation? And then third question, what does it mean to be human? Third millennium?

And I think that's such a huge thing. And we use this story here at Apollo's Water where we talk about the Suez Canal and the Panama Canal and how both of them were modern marvels.

But they took the guy from Suez, that Ferdinand de Lesseps to do it because he was the hero 100 miles through the desert and they put him into do Panama. And it was a glorious failure. It took him eight years, loss of 22,000 lives, 290 million francs.

And it's not that like he still had the same goal to get the message through, but the cultural or the physical topography was different.

And what we're saying to people, kind of like what you're saying is our cultural topography, the message is the same crisis is the Savior, he is the, he's the one who died for our sins. He brings us redemption, he brings us salvation. But the cultural topography is shifted.

And if we're not aware of that cultural topography and the questions that people are asking and without giving them biblical answers, then they're going to continue to flounder. And you're trying to provide that as I like, I like what you a simple, graspable, introductory way, which I find I was surprised.

I was like, wow, they've made this really accessible. I mean even you start off the book with Newbiggin my guy. So I was like, this is my guy.

You know, it's Thomas's guy, too. I try to claim him, but Thomas is like, no, he's mine.

Big, big fan.

So the question then is. Is okay, like, I got my bust of C.S. lewis over here. I'm working on New Begin.

So whoever gets the first bust of Newbiggin gets to claim him as his guy. That's how it's played. That's how we play. It's how we ro. Don't tell me you have that.

No, no, no. It's not a bus.

We don't have the bus of New Beginning.

It's not a bus, but it's something I gave to Thomas that was given to me when I did some teaching over in the uk.

Two things. Here we go.

New Begin archive and I understand for the podcast New Begin, when he was consecrated as Bishop of Madurai, and Daddy, New Begin there, as my college students used to call him. And Trevin got me this when we finished up. Trevin, you want to give the history on this one?

Yeah, I did some teaching. I lived at the kiln C.S. lewis's house for a couple of weeks as a scholar in residence, and I did some teaching at Wycliffe hall in Oxford.

And I went to Leeds in the UK to do a conference on a weekend about CS Lewis. And one of the attendees there had. Leslie Newbiggin had spoken at the same conference years and years ago.

And one of the attendees there would do these drawings of people that had spoken at the conference, and he did one of Neubigan. And so I had it here for the longest time. I didn't know what to do with it. And then eventually I was like, I'm going to give it to Thomas.

So, yeah, Thomas did his dissertation on Newbiggin, so I feel like he's got one leg up on me. Even though I've read a lot of Newbiggin, Thomas is the one who's really, really dove into his works.

So what did you do, Thomas? What did you do your dissertation on.

Leslie Newbiggin's theological method? So from the.

From the angle of systematic theology, I think Newbegin had a consistent and persistent drive throughout his life to add a theological ambition to bring about a missionary encounter and just try to uncover that a little bit, like, what is a theological ambition and what would that look like today?

And tried to show that up by getting into Newbegin's doctrine of revelation, which includes his doctrine of Scripture, and tried to try to show that up a little bit.

What's funny is what you guys are doing what you're talking about. With Newbegin, we created a theological paradigm we call mystical holism. In some respects, it's missional Neo Calvinism with cultural mandate.

Like we do the four. We have gospel. Gospel. I gotta think gospel, kingdom, story, church culture.

Those are the four foundations drawing on Mike Goheen and Craig Bartholomew's work. So there's a lot. Mike Gohen is one of our advisors, part of our team. So of course, he was with Newbegin a lot of the time.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

It's. You know, this is a. This is the thing. I'm just gonna complain for a second. I'm gonna vent because you got CS Lewis, which is amazing guy. Right.

And then you got Leslie Newbiggin, another incredible guy. Both of them have really crappy first names. I mean, Clive and Leslie. Like, I'm gonna name my kid Clive.

Yeah.

I don't want to name. Like, I would name my kid. Like, I named my dog Spurgeon because I like Spurgeon so much.

I love that.

But you know, you know, CS Lewis went by Jack.

Yeah, I know, but it's not the same.

Yeah, no, I guess you're right.

But I mean, like Tolkien, at least they called him Tallers. Toller Tallers.

Tallers. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know. And I think it's not as. Not as known on Newbegin, you know, full name for four of them. James Edward Leslie New Beginning. And our guy dropped.

Dropped the James and the Edward to get to Leslie. I mean, that's. That's some commitment and dedication right there.

My guys, too. What's up with that?

To J E. Leslie Newbegin. There you go, man.

There you go, man. The Brits with these long names. I. It's just some. It is what it is. I.

You see, I would want to see.

We're.

I have no idea where the rails are. We have departed so far from where you probably wanted this podcast.

But I should have warned you, Thomas. This always happens when I'm on a podcast with Travis.

Why don't we do this one first and a few different times. This is. I would love to see. I would love to see the UFC cage match between Trevin Wax and Leslie Newbegin.

Because my guy was go heed says the guy was like five, four and a little, like, scrappy. He was Boulder guy, Rock mountain climber. They say they said so can wet. He might have weighed 156 pounds. I mean, that would be sick.

Sign me up for that. That would be. That would be a session right there.

I have a feeling.

Are we doing it right?

We were in a cage match and we were going to be, like, actually battling something out. We'd wind up over on the side and then nerding out in conversation for you.

You know, y' all be planning out the strategy for the next.

It wouldn't last long because you just got too much to talk about, you know?

Yeah, y'.

All.

Y' all be out here. Oh, we get Lazan together again in Nashville. Like, guys, come on, show us some action.

Oh, I love that. I mean, how often, though, think about that. Like the chat.

I mean, that guy's had such a huge influence on so many people and where we're at in our cultural moment.

This is why, I mean, you're in some respect, you're taking nubing and making him accessible, as well as some of the other insights that we've seen from so many different scholars and bringing them together to help our people, because our people have been woefully under Christian catechized. If I could say that, would you agree with that?

Yeah, I think. I think sometimes you get.

I think a lot of times churches and pastors will give good biblical truth, but it doesn't have the edge that shows how it stands out from what they hear in the world. And so it's possible to believe the right things.

And yet when you're making your life decisions and you're kind of going on your way to, you know, riff off the gospel way thing again, you're really not necessarily doing it the gospel way because you're. You're still. At the same time, a lot of people can hold together. Oh, they hear what their. Their. Their pastor teaches or what they've learned in.

In Sunday school. And also they think the purpose of life is to be true to themselves, and they kind of hold those two things together.

And we're saying what we need is good biblical teaching that explicitly shows how the Bible is distinct, better, richer, truer than what you hear in the world. Than what. Than the kind of philosophy. So good, man.

So we were going through the solos, and people started kind of, you know, for lack of better term, they were just kind of bashing on Catholicism even though they weren't interacting with Catholics.

Some of the guys on the preaching team, we had several different campuses, and I remember going, you know, that's not the issue that I face is that's not. That's not the backdrop I'm dealing with. I have to be my authentic self, my best life. That. That's the.

The cultural topography in which this doctrine needs to be able to. To speak to. And. And I. I'm.

I'm so hesitant sometimes when I see people have this spectrum where they have like a fossil theology where they equate the substance with the form. And then over here, you've got like a. A jellyfish theology that.

That really capitulates to the culture, where you get the LGBTQ and just the liberal agenda that's infiltrated in.

So it's like, how do you then stay true and do the truth of what the word of God says, the substance and the necessity of the new birth and proclaiming the truth of it and expanding their understanding of what the scripture actually says.

And that's what I find is the difficult part, because they're so catechized and for many of them, hate to say this, in some of our churches, it's the product of just bad theology over time. And I think. I think it's just what people have inherited in some respect.

But I think that there's this shift where I'm seeing a corrective, like, let's expand this diet a bit to get you the Word to know how to address these issues.

Do you think that that's true with what you're also trying to do, saying, how do we address these issues in a biblically faithful, culturally relevant way?

Yeah, I just. I would just say as church leaders, and I'll. Thomas can speak for this. As currently serving as a pastor, I just.

I just really don't want to waste a lot of time opposing the threats and errors that my people aren't facing. Like, I. Oh, great. I think that's the. I really want. If the gospel has.

If it's like a sword, it's got to have that edge to it that is going to lead to a very distinctive way of life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's it just to bring in one of the very important influences behind the project. It's Tim Keller, and it's some of the comments and remarks towards the end of his life, which, as Trevin and I were reflecting on the other day, J.I.

packer did the same towards the end of his life, spending some important time saying we really need to recover catechesis and counter catechesis. So in the articles, the Renewal of America, I think it was article two, he gets into the projects for renewal.

He has that section on counter catechesis discipleship I'll just read this.

You're talking. You're talking about Keller. Keller. You said Packer.

Packer also, in the last 10 years of his life, wrote on why we need to recover, why we need to recover catechism. But yeah, so, so, so, so, so.

So listen to Keller, right? Christian education in general needs to be massively redone.

I mean, what a sentence.

We must not merely explain Christian doctrine to children, youth, and adults, but use Christian doctrine to subvert the baseline cultural narratives to which believers are exposed in powerful ways every day.

We should distribute this material widely to all, disrupting existing channels, flooding society, as it were, with the material, as well as directly incorporating it into. Into local churches. I think that's Keller in New Begin Voice. As fine as. As we. As we hear it and as fine as we see it. We need to.

So, so we're thinking through this, like in local churches. How do we not simply say, man, this is justification by faith.

But we take the cultural narratives and the cultural hooks that our people are enmeshed in through TikTok, through, through. Through Facebook, through social media, all throughout the week, wherever they, whatever scroll they read their news on.

And how do we start saying, you have heard it said, but the gospel says to you.

You bring up something that I find there's an increasing or growing conversation around that I'm very grateful for, because I feel like the voices have been too few for a long time. But I was talking to some pastors, and they were kind of talking about what you said, Trevin.

They're talking about questions that no one's asking any longer. But what I find. I had a pastor. Just to illustrate what I'm trying to get to.

I had a pastor friend of mine, he's an author, and he came to me after he had tried to do an outreach at his church, passed out commitment cards, 200 to 200 people. He got one response and sent him into a spiraling depression. And his wife just came to him and she goes, why are you so surprised?

You're asking people to do another thing? And he came to me, and he's like, travis, how do you get people to do something when they're so busy? I said, I think you got the question wrong.

He said, what do you mean? I said, because I think the question is, why are they so busy in the first place?

And it's this cultural narrative that people, I have to do this, I have to do that, I have to do this.

And in some respects, the church has left that untouched because they've been answering the questions over here, and this is where people are living their life over here. And we have to be able to say, are those things that you're pursuing, they can be good things.

But as, as Smith argues in his book, a lot of these things have been crowding out the faith. And we have to be able to bring that back and challenge some of these narratives of where people are living by.

And I mean that in the best case scenario, I'm talking about the people in the churches. Like, we know that there are narratives, people are going out, and it's completely anti biblical.

I'm talking about the people that are oftentimes in the pews that are kind of baptizing idolatrous impulses under Christian convictions. So how do we help recapture and help our leaders to identify some of these idolatrous impulses and these narratives that you're talking about?

Or does this catechism actually help identify that?

I hope so. That's been the goal.

I mean, we try to hit on a lot of those idolatrous impulses all throughout in the answers that we give, so that there's a little bit of a, not this, but that element in the answers.

But so I do think that the catechism would be helpful for a church leader who just wants to brush up on the basics of Christianity with that countercultural edge for themselves. But I would just add the. The goal, though, is not simply to oppose the idolatrous impulse.

Whenever we talk about the edge in our preaching, teaching, catechizing, you know, whatever it might be we want it to be.

Tim Keller used to talk about, like, it should feel like a prison break, like, that you're actually that even though you are opposing the idolatrous edge or you're subverting the cultural narrative, you've got to be doing so in a way that is fulfilling the deeper longing that leads someone to fall for the cultural narrative in the first place, so that your news comes across as freeing rather than as, just like you said, another thing that you're being asked to do or something like that. If you ask the question, why is this person so busy?

If you connect those two questions together, what you might find out is that people feel enslaved to whatever idolatry symbols are leaving, are leading to the kind of life they're living.

So the best way to do countercultural discipleship or counter catechesis is not simply to say, oh, the world is so terrible, and here's what the Bible says. It's to say, the world's got you chained, man. The Bible will set you free. Like, that's ultimately where we want to go.

Scrape, scrape.

What do you think, Thomas? You want to add to that?

Yeah, Dan Strange, you've mentioned him earlier. I think a lot of, A lot of his project drawn up from JH Bob Inc. Is helpful. I mean, the church needs to.

I think we need to recover a methodology, not just how to present the gospel in a neutral environment, but how to present the gospel alongside the different world stories that people are living in. So I think part of what this resource that we're hoping it helps people get is how to connect with a story. Right.

And we give lots of different examples in the 500 word commentary section, how to connect with different cultural stories and cultural narratives, how to confront it, gently confront it, how to even critique it with a. With a. Seek with a. With an intent of conversion. So how do you connect? How do you confront. How do you critique with an intent to convert?

That's certainly where we're going.

Oh, you got four Cs.

That's totally Baptist churches, baby.

Look, we are Baptist churches.

I'm like, oh, yeah, that'll preach.

This is alliteration.

That's where you baptize Dan Strange's thought in. In a Baptistry.

Right there.

That's all you get. Yes.

You know, Dan Strange is a Baptist. Yeah.

But, you know, he ain't got.

I'm worried, claiming he's a. He's a Keller center fellow with me. And when I found out he was a Baptist, my Baptist heart was warmed.

Yeah, he was very encouraging in our time in London as well. Love that guy.

Oh, that's so funny. Well, we call that the affirming challenge principle. That's where we draw from bobbing to J.H. bavink. And Dan's the, the magnetic points.

I know different people have named him different things, but we, you know, the gospel affirms something in every culture that it has in order to gain credibility and affirm language and certain categories. But then it must prophetically challenge to get the biblical bite, to show the reality of it as the culture shifts. So I totally.

I'm there as you're talking about the book, though. Let's, let's get back to the book for a second. We talk about a lot of stuff on here, but the Gospel Way Catechism. Okay, so who is this for, though?

You said, you said you want to help, you know, kind of refresh for church leaders or. But is this for pastors to say, hey, you know, buy a thousand copies or 200 or 50, whatever the size of the church is.

A thousand's great. A thousand's great. Let's go with that.

We're gonna do that. I knew it for that. I was like, oh, why did I say that?

No, it's a look. It is. We wrote it to be as accessible as possible for a couple of audiences.

First, we've got a kids version coming out next year that is simplified so that we're very excited about because that is very clearly intended for family discipleship.

The kids version that comes out next year, but this version, anything from students to college students to adults, we wanted to say let's be as accessible as possible. So if there's a new believer in your church and you want them to understand the basics of Christianity, walk them through maybe for a year.

There's 50 questions and answers. You could do one a week. You want them to understand the basics of Christianity as opposed to the cultural narratives they're coming out of.

We wanted it to be accessible for that person, and at the same time, we wanted it to be great as a refresher for, you know, someone who may have walked with the Lord for many years, but.

But needs a tune up of sorts because they don't know how much the world's philosophies are actually in, you know, affecting the way they think and live. And so someone who's, you know, been in a small group for, you know, 20, 30 years, going through this book with a.

With a group and having good discussion about it may illuminate some areas of their own life where it's like, man, I've been more.

I've bought into some of these things, you know, some of these cultural messages and haven't even really recognized how much Christianity actually has a different way just to kind of push back against some of those syncretistic elements that kind of can. Can creep in, love that.

So Keller even used the notion of when a mature believer is catechizing a younger person in the faith, what the catechism does, it actually develops antibodies in the mature believer. Lest any of these contagions try to come in and attach, the antibodies are being developed in the one who's doing the instruction.

We think it works great in groups, the children's piece in particular.

We imagine that living on the breakfast table or on the living room side table there where it can be opened up a question and answer a little bit of commentary, some discussion questions. We're really trying to serve moms and dads to say, we know it's a lot. We're All a bit overstimulated by the end of the day. Pick this up.

A safe, trustworthy resource to get going. I would just add one dimension to kind of the Everybody edition that we wrote.

If someone is seeking but maybe a bit skeptical about Christianity, someone might be, like, consciously a little more wrapped in the world, and some of the things that are more central and at home for everyday Christians might be struggling to get with it and attach there.

We think there's something about this where it has a slightly evangelistic and apologetic element to it, to where if you wanted to dip your toe in and try to really start testing out the foundations of Christianity, I think there's something here. Keller would say we need, like, a new proliferation of catechisms. Some of them even need to have an evangelistic thrust to them.

I think it's a great way to explore Christianity because even when we wrote it, I was living in London, church planting, Trevin over here, writing, when we were thinking very broadly.

And it has a lot of the challenges and the questions of London, that great secular city, baked into it, as we even wrote this for that particular congregation. That became a bit of a new email newsletter. I kind of kind of went for it right there a little bit.

But it's written, like, for the real everyday Christians, particularly some that are pretty wrapped in the ways of the world and trying to find that narrow path, but needing something that's going to be honest about the different questions they're carrying.

With that. How would you recommend a pastor or leader just taking, like, encouraging their churches to go through it, to purchase it.

Oh, wait, before I ask that question. Totally. Hold on, I got another question. Trevin, I'm going to ask you this because you're a fellow with the Keller Center.

How is this different than the New City catechism?

Oh, that's a good question. Yeah.

Well, I hope so.

Well, that's a good question. I mean, I'll.

Does anyone know? That's a sucky question.

I mean, you only ask good questions, Charles.

Only good questions. Only good questions.

Oh, you can just keep saying those good things.

Although the. I'm still offended by the basketball one you opened up with.

I'm just gonna say, hey, look, man, I think you could take New Begin. I'll just say it.

I could take New Begin. But the question was, could I take you? And the answer is no.

Yeah.

What are you doing, man? You know, your whole, you know, everyone tells you all your life, you can be whatever you be you want to be. Like, no, no, not, not. No, no.

Sorry, what?

New City Catechism. New City Catechism. I feel like I just got to bring everybody back. Just come on back.

So I love the New City Catechism for the way that it updates and puts in contemporary language some of the best of the classic catechisms. I mean, you've got influence there from Westminster, Heidelberg, Luther, Calvin, whatnot.

The thing that the Gospel Way Catechism does that's different than that is that our focus isn't simply updating, although we do build on and we do provide some influence.

Our focus isn't on updating the classic catechisms as much as it's ensuring that there is the counter cultural element, the counter catechesis part of that.

So you can take New City Catechism, obviously, you know, influenced by, spoken highly of by Keller and whatnot, but then you can take the Gospel Way Catechism, which Tim knew we were working on and was cheering us on toward the end of his life. And they're. They're great together. I don't think it's one of those things where it's like, well, if I've only done the one, I don't need the other.

It's, it's. It's. We look at our work as building upon, supplementing, helping bring that countercultural edge to it. There's a place for the classics.

Like, I don't. We have one friend is a Keller center fellow with me that. Another pastor who was like, he. He read ours and he was like, well, it's not Heidelberg.

And I was like, yeah, thank you.

We know.

Hello, Captain Obvious.

We know. We know. You know, we weren't trying to, you know, the first.

The first answer to the Heidelberg Catechism is that, you know, what is my only comfort in life and death is that I belong. That I am not my own, but belong body and soul to Jesus Christ.

I'm not quoting Noble right now. You're not quitting Noble. You said he was.

I mean, it's amazing. No, we're not recreating the Heidelberg Catechism. Yeah, granted.

All right, not trying to replace that, but we do have a resource, I think, that is going to highlight the counter side of counter catechesis for our day and age. And that's what we hope is going to really bring into the. Bring to the forefront some of those elements that will lead to great conversations.

Thomas, what do you think?

He's all. He's all over it. I'm sorry. I just caught a glimpse of Lewis there behind you again.

Trevin's Gonna have to share some of the origin story here and how this came together. We might even be getting down to time. Trevin, you got it. You got to give him some of the background for where we wrote it, how it came together.

I mean, fan of CS Lewis just might, minimally.

The nerds are gonna love this. The nerds will love this. So I mentioned before that I had stayed for a time at the kilns, which was Lewis's home for 30 years or so at. In.

In just outside of Oxford, so was staying as a scholar in residence there.

At the same time Thomas was planting in London, and he took the train down one day, and we basically spent the whole day in the common room there of the kilns, which is, you know, where Lewis answered a lot of letters, wrote some of his. His best known works. We just basically pacing, writing, typing, jotting notes down. Like, what. How would we map out the 50 questions and answers?

What are the doctrines that are essential to cover?

And at the same time, what are the counter elements that need to be brought to the surface that would actually influence the putting together of these questions?

So we really, after working at the kilns, you know, in that place, and honestly, I feel like that's one of the cool things about this catechism, is that it.

We really are trying to pay respect to great apologists and great theologians and writers and people that have been all about Christian discipleship who come from the past. We want this to be birthed that same kind of heart.

And so that's what I'm hoping, you know, comes out in the catechism itself, that it's got that instinct, that cultural apologetics instinct that we hope will be evident.

I. I'm a little jealous. Envious. Envious that you guys got to do that. Like, that's like, part of me now is like, oh, it's anointed of God. It really is where you did it.

What we've been building to this whole time. Glad we got there.

Have you. Have you been to the kilns, Travis? It's a little shabbier than you might expect, but it's magical in its own way.

No, but I've hung out at Jerry Root's house, and that's pretty close.

That's probably. Yeah, you're not wrong.

Jerry Root's place is pretty similar. I mean, hanging out with those guys is like being with the inklings. I'm looking around the room sometimes. I was like, what am I doing here? This is.

I mean, you are right right now. This is ultimate nerdom right here. Yes, we're talking about this stuff, but I find that they are really relevant in what you guys are trying to.

Do is.

Really make this accessible and answering the questions that people have. And that's something that I really appreciate because, I mean, God is doing a work. We're hearing rumors of it.

I'm still waiting for the stats to bear out on that. Looking at Burge talking to Smith, they're like, the stats aren't bearing out what some people are testifying to and. But God is always on the throne.

I remember talking with Malcolm Guide about that. And he's like, well, Jesus got down to, you know, 11 apostles. I think we'll be just fine. He goes, we'll just be fine.

And that's another kind of, you know, nerding out kind of thing for those that know him. It's like Jerry Garcia meets Bilbo Baggins. I don't know how else to put it.

For sure. Oh, for sure.

Just an amazing guy, though. Just amazing guy. So what. Let me ask you another question. But before we head off here, this is more of a personal question.

You guys put some definitions of the gospel in the back.

Yeah.

And I find that very helpful. I was curious because I know there's a lot of. A lot of questions on that right now. How do we define it? Is it the announcement? Is it the.

We're getting into substitution?

I like how Patrick Shriner was mentioning it where he was talking about prophet, priest and king and hitting the individual and the communal and the cosmic. And. And we're all trying to just nail this down because people are really wanting to know about this.

Why did you feel the need to include that in there? Were those the very reasons why. So that people cannot just take it for granted, but we can really try to. To bring it out.

Well, we wanted the gospel to infuse the whole catechism. That's why it's called what it's called. But we didn't ever. We didn't. We don't have a question in there on what is the gospel?

With a very short definition, really.

Oh, this thing is trash.

Yeah.

Just kidding. Just kidding.

I mean, but, I mean, the reason we don't is because we. The gospel is informing and influencing the entire storyline of scripture that we see there.

And so the reason we included some of those that, you know, and it was when we were putting the book together, I mean, Thomas remembers, we wanted to make sure we got the, you know, some of the classic formulations of the Christian faith. Back there.

But the having the gospel in those different definitions in the back, it was just a way of reminding us there's no way of fully plumbing the depths of the good news of Jesus. There are all different ways you can come at it. There are different angles you can take.

I'm more of the, you know, yeah, I'm going to have some, some definite, you know, lines where it's like, okay, this has to be mentioned, and other areas where it's like, well, that's an implication. It's good to keep it close, you know, things like that.

I think that those are great conversations to have, but at the end of the day, we just wanted it to be. We wanted those definitions at the end to remind us, hey, this is good news. And no matter exactly how you explain or define the good news, the.

The most important thing is to believe this and then share it.

Well, then let me ask you this final question. What's, you know, we. Our ministry is called Apollos Watered. So we like to water people with the faith. Right?

And oftentimes we conclude our conversations with like, what's one water bottle that you would give to those that are listening today, these pastors and leaders in all kinds of churches here and abroad, what would you give them for their. Their water bottle?

Your concluding thought as missionary encounter, where it does affirm what is good, but it does contradict and it calls into question what is idolatrous. So much of his project was helping tease out how the gospel became absorbed into the secular West. And it cannot be absorbed by its very nature.

It must always confront whatever cultural realities it comes upon with the lordship of Jesus Christ. And that means in every generation, the church must continue to ask in fresh ways, where does the gospel line up with our cultural longings?

Where does it prophetically challenge them? And if, if pastors, if church members were to spend. Spend a year in the catechism, slowly working it through week by week, we're.

We're hopeful and prayerfully confident that it will develop some of those missionary instincts in a fresh way in the hearts and minds of those pastors and teachers and everyday Christians so we can live out a Christianity that really does have that missionary encounter.

I, I love that. And I would just, I would just add one of my favorite notions, quotes from New Begin is that the church is the hermeneutic of the gospel.

And at the end of the day, as pastors, as church leaders, we want. We want the church to display the gospel well and to. We can't be countercultural if we don't have a culture of our own to counter the culture with.

And so the development of that kind of gospel culture is one that is its head, it's the heart, it's the hands, but it's, It's. It's all together as holistic beings.

And this is one way we hope in the conversations, in the heartstrings, in the missionary instinct that pushes us towards service, that we can help equip churches to better stand out in the world that God's called us to. I love that.

That's actually why, like I was telling you guys earlier, we created Missio Holism, which is very similar. That's the point of it. The church being the hermeneutic of the gospel and has those key areas, and, and catechism is one of those embodied rhythms.

I mean, we have a lot that's to it, but it's the same thing. We're all trying to get the same thing. We want to see Jesus glorified. We want to see people come to know him. We want to see.

That's what we want to see. Lives transformed and people coming to the. To the saving knowledge of it.

And so we're all kind of grasping at it in our own way, saying, lord, this lead and use us where we're at so we might glorify his name. So thank you, gentlemen, for coming on the show. Really appreciate the conversation.

Although now I want hot chicken, and I really do want to pay to see you guys play basketball. I. That. That just. Actually, I just want to see Trevin play basketball.

This is a lot of fun, man. This was. It's a great podcast. It's just been a lot of fun. Yeah, the. The joy, the. The levity, the.

The happiness in the Lord that just infuses the conversation with you. Really great being on with you.

Thank you very much so much for having us.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Ministry Deep Dive. Today's discussion reminds us that ministry is not just about sharing information.

It's not just about getting it out, having them do the right things, but really imbibing it, helping it to become part of who they are, which means shaping lives in a world that constantly is seeking to conform it to its own image and wants to redefine it according to its own ideas of truth, identity, and purpose. The gospel doesn't just inform, it transforms. And the gospel way catechism reminds us of that.

And if today's conversation has encouraged you to think about how to engage your culture more, disciple your family or lead your church in a Gospel centered way, I would encourage you to take the next step. Sign up for the blueprint cohort starting November 1st.

The link is in the show notes and next time I'll be sitting down with none other than Michael Goheen to talk about the core of the Christian faith. We'll explore what lies at the heart of Christianity and why it matters for every believer today. You will not want to miss this conversation.

Until then, keep seeking, keep questioning and keep diving deep.

Thanks for joining us.

On today's episode of the ministry Deep Dive, a podcast of Apollo was Watered the center for Discipleship and Cultural Apologetics. We hope it helps you thrive in your ministry and in today's culture. Let's keep the conversation going.

Check out our ministry@apolloswater.org and be sure to sign up for one of our ministry cohorts. Connect with others in the battle. We need one another. And remember, keep diving deep and as always, stay watered.

Everybody.