Think your B2B world is doomed to be dry and boring? Kathryn Frankson sits down with Jay Schwedelson to prove the opposite, pulling stories from massive fintech stages, tiny city libraries, and even her own tea obsession to show how human your marketing could be. From last touch attribution myths to three year event strategies that actually leave room for creativity, this conversation is basically a permission slip to stop hiding behind spreadsheets and start telling real stories. If you have ever been told to just “stick to the numbers,” you are going to feel very seen.

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Connect with Kathryn on LinkedIn and explore Money20/20 to see how she brings human first storytelling into massive global fintech events.

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Best Moments:

(01:20) Kathryn shares how years as a quota carrying B2B sales rep shaped her obsession with human centered marketing and real storytelling.

(03:40) Why she loves so called boring B2B industries and hires people with zero events background to keep perspectives fresh and curious.

(07:30) The New Berlin library trust fall video, a renamed Minnesota town, and a car dealership spoof show how wildly creative “unsexy” sectors can be.

(10:05) Kathryn breaks down how Money20/20 uses three year strategy, data, and clear guardrails so creativity and storytelling are baked into the plan, not random one offs.

(12:05) A takedown of last touch attribution and the gap between how humans actually discover brands and how most marketing teams try to measure it.

(15:05) Kathryn sells Jay on switching from coffee to tea with a mini masterclass on polyphenols, calmer energy, and her “I like my marketing hot, but my tea hotter” tagline.

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Check out Jay’s YOUTUBE Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@schwedelson

Check out Jay’s TIKTOK: https://www.tiktok.com/@schwedelson

Check Out Jay's INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/jayschwedelson/

Jay Schwedelson: Ever. And she's like a good human being who gets it. And I'm fired up. We're gonna be talking about B2B storytelling. Katherine, welcome to the show.

Kathryn Frankson: Hi, Jay, awesome to be here. Thanks for the killer intro.

Jay Schwedelson: I'm super stoked that you're here. We're gonna break into all things. 'cause a lot of people out there that are listening, they think they have a boring B2B job, but we're gonna flip the script and tell 'em, well, no, you can make it amazing. But before we do that, how did you become amazing? What is your deal?

Jay Schwedelson: How'd you become Katherine?

Kathryn Frankson: How did I become Catherine? I love it. I also love that anything where we realize that we don't have to subscribe to just these boring tropes that, um, our minds suck us into. So, I, well, it's interesting that we're talking about storytelling and creativity. 'cause I think the thing that's most pertinent to this conversation is that professionally, um, I got my start in sales.

Kathryn Frankson: So I was true blue sales. Now we would probably have the terms like B-D-R-S-D-R up to enterprise, but sales, sales, sales. And um, I did that for a number of years and I became really sort of interested in marketing by proxy of that. I found that I was like having to talk a lot about how they were tracking and the why and ideation at the time I was also planning my wedding.

Kathryn Frankson: So you're looking for gobs of stuff at once and it makes you realize how you, you shop and purchase. And so that's what spurred me to make the change into marketing. And at the time I was like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be amazing. This is gonna be the heyday. I'm gonna take off this boring like sales blazer.

Kathryn Frankson: I'm gonna be all creative and go into marketing and I. I had made the jump and not once was I in a meeting where I heard anyone say story or creativity or human or love or passion, and I was sh kind of shocked and that's what made me realize that there is. And actually that's what I was really passionate about and that was what I wanted to do for my style of marketing.

Kathryn Frankson: And so that's been the road that I've traveled.

Jay Schwedelson: Okay, so what blows my mind about that? I love that. And you're so right. I've been to all those meetings. Nowhere ever says any of those words, but when you're like passionate about those words, I would've thought you'd be like, okay, I'm gonna go work for this, you know, consumer. Brand that everybody knows and loves and whatever.

Jay Schwedelson: But no, you went down the super duper exciting world of B2B publishing and business to business events in like regulated industries like financial services and stuff. Like when you're like, I want creativity, I want love, I want storytelling. How, what led you to B2B land?

Kathryn Frankson: Oh my God. I love B2B land. I love it because. I think there's been a sense that those stories don't exist there or there isn't the opportunity to be creative in those spaces. And I knew, I will say, 'cause I was in B2B sales, so I knew firsthand when you are in sales, as you have been, as many, many people bet, and you're new to an industry, which I think there is absolutely a huge advantage to.

Kathryn Frankson: Just being brand new to something like I actually love hiring people who have no events background or marketing background. 'cause you're like, oh my gosh, that what we're gonna get out of someone who has a fresh way of thinking, as long as they're curious and smart and, and ambitious is really exciting.

Kathryn Frankson: But what I knew from being in B2B sales, when you're talking to real people and you're going one to one, is that. It is, it's, it's fascinating. It's really interesting. There's humans behind all of this, and you're trying to, to build and create partnerships or whatever version of sales. I did ad sales. I did 10 by 10 expo booth sales.

Kathryn Frankson: I did, you know, more complex sponsorship sales, but it was always a person, and you won the business by. Being real, being human, telling a story. If you, if you data dumped, you're gonna lose someone or you're gonna confuse them. You can't spam 'em with emails, right? They'd be like, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Kathryn Frankson: Um, and so I, I felt every bit as energized and I felt like there was just this void of that storytelling that wasn't happening behind. If you think of even money. Um, oh my God. It money's at the root of everything, right? It's at the root of businesses, of hopes of dreams, of people, of startups, of why is it regulated, how the type of money is changing.

Kathryn Frankson: So I think some of it is just deciding to be really passionate and curious and just not cutting off that belief that. Any sector, any vertical, any industry, anything. 'cause that's part of it. It's like we've propped all this stuff up in, in these words, B2C, B2B sectors industry. It's like at the root of everything.

Kathryn Frankson: Doesn't matter if it's medicine or finance or insurance. There's people behind all of it doing really, really interesting stuff. And marketing I found was just so obsessed with. The numbers. I mean, it was just, you went straight into this land of measuring everything and obsessively talking about that instead of, and some of that's applicable and great and smart and interesting and can be an unlock, but really at the expense of even opening yourself up to the same principles that you would in dealing with someone one-to-one.

Kathryn Frankson: Everything became these just large numbers on a spreadsheet. I'm like, there's people behind all of this and we have to tap into it. So I've always been really. Energized by it, I think because I had that human connection to begin with, and so I never lost that tether.

Jay Schwedelson: Uh, uh, first of all, I feel very inspired. Uh, I do, and I think a lot of people out there, someone's like, oh, I'm in this boring B2B a plumbing supply company, but now I'm thinking about the fact I'm reaching out to humans and I'm gonna connect with them on a human level. So let me ask you this, in your organization, right?

Jay Schwedelson: What's our story for next year? And everyone come with your best stories. Like, like how does it, what is the process to kind of invite kind of the storytelling into your, your, what you're doing?

Kathryn Frankson: I'm gonna, I, let's talk about that. Can I say one more thing about what you said when you said, oh, I'm inspired and different. I, so what was it? Was it two, two days ago that a video went viral from the New Berlin, Wisconsin Library? I dunno if you've seen that. It's got like 46 million views. It is a librarian, um, doing, they, they decided they wanted to do something to let people know that they've got great free resources at the New Berlin, Wisconsin Library.

Kathryn Frankson: And so they pretended to do a trust fall, uh, where one of the librarians didn't catch the, did you see that one? Didn't catch it. And it's just so funny and perfectly executed and. What a funny way to tell that story. That could have been a very boring graphic. Right. I live in Hopkins, Minnesota and the city of Hopkins, Minnesota, USA, decided to do on a whim for Paige Becker's basketball star, who's from from Hopkins for her first WNBA game.

Kathryn Frankson: Decided to rename the city of Hopkins, Paige, Becker's, Minnesota for the day. National attention gets on ESPN. That is a, a city marketing team that decided on that, right? There's the dealership in, it's somewhere in New York, I think, and they decided to do a spoof on the office and did the dealership as a way so.

Kathryn Frankson: So we do have what I think is really interesting about. Creativity and storytelling is, I think you need two things to do it really, really well. I think you do need the right culture, right? I mean, you can't talk to any frustrated marketer anywhere and go like, God, I've got these ideas, but I can't. Or there's the constraints.

Kathryn Frankson: So you do. Really neat. Now, I think you can create that. I think it can be a subculture. I think you can still find microcosms of that, but I think the best way to unlock that is to decide that you think creativity is important and real and valuable, and that you should talk about it and mention it, and that it, it, it holds weight to the work that you're doing.

Kathryn Frankson: Right? So I think that's really important. And then I do think you need a process. In guardrails or, or it's, it's gonna spin out or it's gonna be one bright shining moment and amidst a, a sea of day-to-day tasks that then you just can't replicate. So we do, we have a pretty ed process about. Wash up strategy, how that layers into right.

Kathryn Frankson: Creative, creative design, sales, marketing, operations, content. Um, so you take, you take the data, you take the thematics, you decide how that rolls up to your three year strategy. So again, I say all this because it's, you can live in storytelling and, and creative land, and you have. Commercial delivery that you still have to, to make good on.

Kathryn Frankson: And so it all ladders up to what a three-year strategy is, right? Knowing what those pillars are. Because that's where, and again, I say this in the context of I think sometimes you can live too far in one land or the other. And you can also get a really robust metrics financial heavy three-year plan and go, oh, bye.

Kathryn Frankson: If you're open to it and it's done right, what you're gonna find in there are. New opportunities, right? Oh, we need to crack into this sector. Oh, our NPS is highest here. Hmm. Interesting. Why are we churning here? We did some smart stuff. I thought, why aren't we churning here? Okay, this, this did work. Okay, let's do a Swo alright com competitor.

Kathryn Frankson: This is, this is different. This is the same. So there, that piece doesn't have to be boring. It can be very fruitful and that can lay. This foundation and kind of give you those guardrails for saying, this is where we need to go. These are the timelines that we have to hit. Um, we, let's have a culture where we believe that being customer first and telling human stories is, is really important, and that that's gonna be the red thread through everything.

Kathryn Frankson: And then let's start to put that into it. A tactical execution plan so that we can actually put this stuff into the world over and over again and yeah, so it, it tends to be pretty, not formulaic, but structured.

Jay Schwedelson: So along those lines, you talk about the librarian with the 40 million views and all those things, and clearly you're. Very numbers oriented. Right? And you're looking at metrics, looking at all the things. But how do you, how do you balance that? Right? So if you're talking about storytelling, 'cause I come from the camp that I think some attribution is garbage.

Jay Schwedelson: I do. Right? Uh, and yet you, you're measuring everything. And yet you're storytelling. And sometimes isn't it hard to sometimes do attribution with storytelling? Does everything have to line up to that? It's converting and it's worth it. And there's an ROI.

Kathryn Frankson: Uh, here's my view. I don't think you can, if you are, if you are living in last touch attribution. If that is your methodology for measuring what works and is your north star for deciding where you invest, what channels you, you move towards or away from, you're, you're gonna miss a trick or two to say the least.

Kathryn Frankson: I mean, I, I would, I think it'd be really interesting if everyone just talked, took all of their last touch attribution metrics and if we had to unveil 'em, if everyone had to post it on LinkedIn at the same time. How much variance do you think there's gonna be in that?

Jay Schwedelson: No, it's gonna be your search It.

Kathryn Frankson: correct. Direct track. Imagine that.

Kathryn Frankson: Imagine that. So you that, so you have to, this is where people get frustrated though, right? Because some aren't able to. Move beyond that or it's, well, let's AB test and let's show what's working and, and once we have those metrics, we'll make a business case for it and we'll present that and then we'll be able to do this other creative work.

Kathryn Frankson: And that's, there's a difference between, and this is again, I found this making the move into marketing, that there was the real world of how we are as. Humans, not even consumers, doesn't have to be B2B, B2C. How we as humans are finding new things, getting excited about stuff, embedded in culture. You know, you can't stand in an Uber line at any airport and not look around and just see every walk of person staring at their, at their phone.

Kathryn Frankson: Right. And, and consuming on, on social. But you, there was the, the real world that we exist in, and then there was like. The four walls inside of an organization and how marketing was operating. I was like, but we know, but we know people care about this, but then why are we trying to measure it in this way?

Kathryn Frankson: So it's a losing battle if that's, if that is what all of the decision making is gonna be based on.

Jay Schwedelson: I love that. It's so true. I think marketing surround sound and lasso attribution should not even exist in anybody's like metrics or whatever. Uh, alright, I'm flipping the script here. I wanna go a totally different direction 'cause I need you to sell me on something. You are a huge tea fan. You like tea, you like to drink tea.

Jay Schwedelson: Is that true?

Kathryn Frankson: Jay, I tell you just when I thought my day could not get any better, no one's ever asked me jump, scare. No one asks me about tea. Um,

Jay Schwedelson: Wait, here's what I want you to sell me on. I like coffee a lot.

Kathryn Frankson: Yep. Everyone likes coffee.

Jay Schwedelson: right? Sell me on why I should be the, the Catherine Franks said I need to switch from coffee to tea. Here we go.

Kathryn Frankson: Oh my gosh, tea is so wonderful and incredible. But here's something that I think is very tactical. Let's start by not winning hearts and minds. Let's start by being really, really on the nose with it. So one of the things that I think is amazing about tea. And the reason that I made the switch is that it is because of the infrastructure of the tea and the polyphenols.

Kathryn Frankson: It's absorbed into your musculature as opposed to your central nervous system. So you don't get jittery, you don't get the jolt. You can enjoy it, you can drink it all day without having the crash. You could like sustain your day and live your best life. Um, and it's, it's ama It's just absolutely amazing.

Kathryn Frankson: I have gone to the tea fields of Sri Lanka. I will let you know and yeah. I'm indeed, I'm indeed. Went to an eco lodge and yeah, woke up to the pluckers. The origins of it is amazing. I love that every different type of tea, whether it's green or black or oolong or white, has a a real regional and global perspective to it.

Kathryn Frankson: And I think it's, yeah, I think it's just really special and amazing. And I could go on, but I won't.

Jay Schwedelson: Is it horrendous if I just said that you spilled the tea on tea? Is that the dumbest

Kathryn Frankson: No, it's amazing. There's nothing that could ever, like any, absolutely. Any nuance of it. Spill the tea, uh, tea time with Jay

Jay Schwedelson: Oh.

Kathryn Frankson: Catherine. Yeah,

Jay Schwedelson: a great idea. Oh, we're gonna do, I think, at some upcoming event, I'm gonna ask you to do like a a, a tea tasting. Like we'll have to do something where you're trying all sorts of teas and telling everybody about what is going on. This is a, this is tremendous.

Kathryn Frankson: would love, do you know what my uh, Bravo tagline

Jay Schwedelson: No, I want that. I wanna know.

Kathryn Frankson: I like my marketing hot, but my tea hotter.

Jay Schwedelson: Ooh, that's good.

Kathryn Frankson: bravo tagline.

Jay Schwedelson: You are awesome, Catherine. Thanks for being here.

Kathryn Frankson: Thank you so much. You're the best.