In this week’s episode I am joined by Karen Swan to talk about her brilliant new novel, Three Summers which is out today in paperback (link below). This episode was a pure joy to record, we actually spoke for nearly two hours as we got chatting before we hit record and I think we could have easily nattered for another hour too.

In this episode, Karen talks about finding the perfect setting for Three Summers, I think we need a Best Book Forward retreat there, how she balances writing emotionally tense scenes and of course the five books that shaped Karen’s life which were.

Karen’s Book Choices:

• My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante
• The Summer Book by Tove Jansson
• Life After Life by Kate Atkinson
• Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen
• Birdsong by Sebastian Faulks

Books by Karen Swan

• Three Summers

If you loved listening to this episode, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review Best Book Forward on your favourite podcast app, and don’t forget to tell your book-loving friends. It really helps new listeners discover our cozy reading community and helps us grow

See you next Tuesday for our next teaser episode which will be followed with the main episode on Thursday.

🎧 Listen & Subscribe Now: : Best Book Forward Podcast

📲 Connect with Us:

• Follow Helen on Instagram: @bestbookforward
• Discover more book recommendations on our Website: https://bestbookforward.org

Welcome back to Best Book Forward, the podcast where I talk to authors about the five books that have shaped their lives.

You can think of it as a little like a bookish version of Desert Island Discs.

Before we get started, I have a little favour to ask.

If you haven't yet subscribed to the show, I would be so grateful if you could hit the follow button wherever you're listening as it makes a huge difference to the show.

Right, so this week we are off to Puglia with international best selling author Karen Swan who joins me to talk about her brilliant new novel Three Summers, which is out today in paperback and it is a brilliant read.

You're going to love this book.

It is an absolutely intoxicating read, one that will keep you glued to the last page and the last sentence.

It is just fabulous.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book and I know you will too.

Karen joins me today to talk about her inspirations, how she never shies away from difficult topics and how she manages to balance tension and romance so perfectly.

And of course we'll also hear about the five books that have shaped her life as well.

So I don't think we should waste any time.

I think we should dive straight in and give Karen a warm welcome to the show.

Karen, welcome.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Oh, thank you for having me.

I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy to have you here.

And we've just been having.

I just said we're going to have to stop nattering because we could have had a whole episode from our chat before we started recording.

I know, we don't need questions, we'll just.

Book chat.

Love it.

So we're here today to talk about your new novel Three Summers, which is coming out today.

When this episode comes out in paperback and we're just saying this is the hardback cover, but it's not going to look like this.

I'm really excited to see what the new one will look like.

I'm sure it's gorgeous.

So do you want to start then by giving anyone who hasn't picked it up yet an idea of what the story is all about?

Yes.

So it's called Three Summers because the action of the book spools out over three summers.

And it's sort of centered around three childhood friends.

They, they've grown up together since they were very little, but they are sort of divided by circumstance.

So it's a very small fishing port called Tricasiporto and it's absolutely tiny and it's, it's.

I mean you can drive through it in under a minute.

But it's got the most beautiful golden beach and these stunning sort of Neapolitan ice cream coloured big villas around the front.

It's this big U shaped bay and you've got these villas around the front and then all these tiny little fisherman's houses in the streets behind and then the olive groves behind that.

And one of the villas was owned by this family.

And it got me thinking about these noble families that would come from the local area, but actually also from further afield and would come to the port for their summer months to get away from the heat of the city.

You don't want to be in Florence and Rome and Venice in the mid, in the mid summer heat.

So they would come down to Puglia for the summer week, for the summer months.

And I like the idea of this young family, the Franchetti's, this noble family, spending every summer with the local kids.

And they grow up and they don't really have a sense of their difference between.

They're just kids, they're playing on the beach, they're running along the streets, they're free.

But they're 17, 18, 19, 20.

And we start the first summer with sort of picking up on something that had happened on the last night of the summer before between Cosmo and this young local girl, Rafaela.

Rafael has a local boyfriend, but she's so excited about Cosmo and his sister Romola Franchetti coming back to the port.

And there's a very clear tension from them, from between them, from the start.

And we.

We sort of carry through from Tricase Porto to the.

Effectively the second half of the book, which is in the third summer, and we move further up the coast to a place called Otranto.

And it was just really exciting to sort of move with these characters through different places, different stages of their lives and different fortunes.

So.

So yeah, that is brilliant.

It's.

And it's such a great read.

Do you know, when you were just describing it then I was like, should we just all go for like a little sort of just like.

I think we should all go and read it there.

It would be amazing.

It's.

So I went to a lot of places.

I went to basically every port town in Puglia and inland as well, but I specifically wanted a port.

And, and, and I didn't know what I was looking for, but I was just looking all the way up and down the coast and then I got to Tresse and it was tiny, but it was.

So not only were the villas these beautiful colors, pale pink, pale yellow, pale green, white, but then there's like this pink villa right on the beach.

And the water, I kid you not, is turquoise.

Like, it's like.

It's the most dazzling color of all.

And you come down the coastal road and it's suddenly there in front.

All you can see is just beautiful color and everything.

And it just feels like stepping back in time because it feels so untouched.

I mean, it's.

It's beautiful.

You know, when you watch film, like Audrey Hepburn films From like the 19, you've got that really intense color feel, that, that chromatic feel, like everything's very saturated.

That's what it feels like, being in the porch.

And it's so funny with things like that because you think you can't capture it, can you?

If you try and take a picture on your phone, you can never.

I mean, I guess it's like trying to take a son's.

That you can never sort of do it.

But you do it so well in the book.

I mean, I just.

I could see it so perfect and I know it's not set there, but in times like the film the Talented Mr. Ripley.

Yes.

And that sort of was coming into my mind and sort of helping me sort of like with my imagery as well.

Yes, I actually did watch that film as partly to sort of.

I. I quite Often do that.

When I'm about to start a book, I. I fight, especially if it's set back in time to a greater or lesser extent.

And I thought, well, there's just a different cadence and a different use of language and just a different energy as well.

And I thought, well, and I. I hadn't seen talented Mr. Ripley for about 10, 12 years, and I sort of had in my head what it was, but I thought, no, actually, I want to really listen to the soundtrack, look at the colours, just look at the fashions, you know, I mean, I'd done a lot of research as well, but I.

It was just a nice visual aid.

Memoir, really.

So we're going completely off track here, which I love.

But when you're doing that, then you're sitting down writing.

I mean, obviously, do you actually go to Italy or are you sitting at home writing?

No, I go.

So I had gone in September and then I started writing in about November.

Back home.

Yeah, yeah.

And do you put, like a board up?

Do you have, like a sort of mood board to look at?

Or do you just.

It stays in your memory.

It's sort of in my mind.

I do go back to.

I take so many photos, it's not even funny.

Like, my husband is so cross about how I keep having to increase my icloud storage because I never have enough because I take so many pictures.

But I. I take loads of pictures and then I look at them a lot when I come home and then I stop and I let it all percolate and I just sort of.

I see what settles and what is sort of sticking its head above the parapet, so to speak, in terms of what my memory is holding onto.

And.

And then, of course, if I.

If I need detail for a scene, then I can go back into the images and I can look to see what were those gates like or where exactly was that.

And I.

You know, because I've basically acted like Google Earth, then I can just go into my own notes and reference them.

But it's.

Yeah, it's quite a distinct thing.

I always go to the places I write about.

Okay, that's so interesting.

So you were saying then when you were there, you saw these houses and that sort of started to give you the idea for these families.

So in terms of the inspiration.

So you had, like, the place, you had the idea of the families with the actual story for the love story, then this sort of love triangle coming of age, where did that idea start coming from?

That literally was informed by the location.

So quite often people Say to me, you know, you've written 30 odd books.

How.

How do you get all the ideas?

And I'm like, it's never the ideas that are difficult.

It's about how you construct a book.

And sometimes you want to start with location, sometimes you start with plots, sometimes you start with character.

Sometimes someone comes to you fully formed and you're like, oh, where do I place you?

In this instance, it was location.

I knew I wanted the book.

And I just thought, actually, you know, I felt like I had windburn and tangles in my hair.

I'd spent four summers writing these books, so I thought I actually want to go somewhere incredibly glamorous, hot, aspirational.

So I knew I wanted Italy.

And.

And I got to Puglia and as I say, I'd gone up and down the coast.

I. I didn't know what I was looking for, but I also knew I would know it when I found it.

And I did.

I got to Tricase and I thought, this.

I love this.

It's just speaking to me.

And I looked at those villas and I thought, okay, we have a class divide here.

And how exciting it must have been for the villagers every summer to have these.

Well, on the one hand, exciting to have the glamour of the rich families coming back in, spending all their money, living large in these beautiful residences.

It has to have been exciting.

But on the other side, you've also got tension.

There's going to be jealousy, there's going to be resentment.

So as soon as I'd sort of latched onto this, I.

This idea of, you know, dynamics being set up in the port by the architecture of the police, that sort of started to inform character and plot.

And so I started to sort of build up, I think the very.

Well, the very first scene I wrote was chapter one.

When we open on a load of women in a beautiful atelier with a bolt of satin, you know, and they're all touching it and it's so exciting because even the lace was cotton in Puglia back then.

And so to have this incredible man made shimmery fabric that had come from a film set in Rome, you sort of immediately got this glamour and escapism and.

And I just.

I remember right, it was lovely because it gave me this cast of characters immediately.

And I sort of.

That came from St. Kilda that idea of building up the community.

And I. I knew I wanted that.

So from the off, it took me about a week to write that scene, which is incredibly slow, but I was having to sort of tiptoe my way through and find the characters as I.

As I went through that.

And what I got to by the end of that chapter was actually all my main characters.

We have Rafaella and her best friend Gina.

We have.

We have Cosimo and Raffaella return to the port and in the distance we see the Janelli brothers, Fon and Dante.

And I didn't know when I wrote that scene what was going to happen with any of them.

I knew there was a love triangle, but I didn't know what was going to happen with any of them.

I didn't know where I was going with it.

I was really writing blind.

And also I didn't know at that point that I was going to write the book through as a love triangle, but through the perspective of each of the players in that love triangle, which actually means that two thirds of the narrative of the narrative is male gaze, because they both male characters are looking.

It's about their feelings and actions towards Rafaella.

And I didn't know that when I started writing it, but as I started to sort of put down the chapters, I wanted us to sort of see it in the round.

And again, this was something that came from doing the St Kilda series where I had written effectively a murder mystery in the round.

And I really liked having a 360 view of a story.

And this was just a more cohesive way of doing that within one book rather than over four.

So it was.

I was writing blind, I was tiptoeing my way through it, but, you know, I started with location and then I found character and plot through that.

And you get to a certain point where probably at about 40% through, you start, you know enough now of where you are heading with it and you've got the energy from the characters and they're all beginning to sort of weave together.

And I just started to.

You can then let them run.

Like, it sort of gets its own momentum and.

And you've just got to try and steer the reins a little bit and make sure we're all going to get to the same finish line.

But, you know, it's.

It's a.

It's a great fun thing.

I love that it feels like it's as much of a journey for you as it is for us as a reader.

I picked it up and I was like, you know, had that opening scene, not knowing who was coming, what their journey was.

That's really interesting, isn't it, that, you know, that was what you experienced.

I find if I do know, I write terribly when I. Oh, my God, my book would be three chapters long.

Because all I want to do, all I want to do is get to.

I just want to tell everyone.

I want to get it out of my head and I just sort of.

I can't set.

Like, it's just like a.

It's like an imp on my shoulder.

It's just like, come on, just tell them, just tell them.

Whereas.

So I really do genuinely believe that my brain protects me from myself because so often I don't know what I'm going to write, which drives my editor and agent mad because I've got to sort of give them the synopsis before I begin.

And I'm there going, well, it's, you know, I don't.

What I do know, I don't want to tell them because I don't want to give them any spoilers.

But also, I don't really know much and it's incredibly frustrating for everyone.

But I do find that I get to the end and somehow everything works out.

And I think I say to my husband, I just don't understand it.

It's all.

I just didn't know that was going to happen, but it's all worked out.

And he says, you say this every time.

I'm like, I just don't know how it works that way because it's.

I must, at some level, I must have known, but I just didn't know.

I knew.

And it's crazy to me.

Literally, I've written 40 books and I still don't understand how I do it.

That sounds to me like it's the magic of you.

Like, whatever it is, I think it.

Is sort of the, the creative brain.

I. I think that for most authors, they may be less chaotic than me, and I think that certainly thriller writers, they do have to plot much more, much more than I do.

But I also quite like that going on a journey because it's that thing of you're getting to know someone.

And I do like my books to be very emotional.

I want huge emotional resonance for the reader.

I want them to gasp, I want them to cry, I want them to laugh, to get goosebumps.

Like, I want that connection.

And so I really have to know those characters.

They have to be fully formed and three dimensional.

And that means you really do have to sit with them.

If I was just to get Troopy with it and just to get all right, it's enemies to lovers, and I'm just gonna chuck that down.

Well, I could do that, but that's not actually going to satisfy me.

If I'm writing two books a year, I have to really care and about what I'm writing and invest in it.

Otherwise I'm just going to get really bored.

So I. I have to have that emotional connection.

And it is incredibly difficult in the beginning when, you know, you do feel like you're stuck in a lift with a bunch of strangers and you're like, oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

You've got to get through that pain bar.

You know, you do the small talk, and then you've sort of got to push through the pain barrier and really start getting closer.

And.

And that's how it is with the book.

You know, you have to just sit there, stare at the wall, contemplate the meaning of life, and wonder why you didn't choose an easier job.

And.

But somehow you do.

You do.

They reveal themselves in the smallest of mannerisms or little quirks and, you know, and you just suddenly get a handle on them and you're like, I know you.

And once you know one, you can then see how they would react to the other character who you also know.

And then you've got really lovely tension and energy between them because they.

They're real.

Now at this point, I mean, I sound like a nutcase, but I genuinely.

By the end, all my characters are real.

And you could just stop me on the street and I will completely have a conversation with you about them as though, you know, they live in my house.

I love that.

And I have this theory, like, when I listen to authors talking like this, I think when you care so much and you're sort of thinking about it, that's what makes it effortless for us as readers, because you've come to the right sort of story and characters that's so believable because you believe it.

Like, I think for readers to so be on board and sort of get characters into their heart, we have to sort of believe.

So if you're putting that in, it comes off the page.

I think.

I do think that.

And I think that as.

As painful as it is, you have to allow that process to happen.

And, you know, I do get a lot of people just saying, I don't want to leave these characters.

You know, will you do a sequel?

I'm like, no, because you really can't really do sequels with.

Certainly with any sort of romantic story.

Because if you've spent a book building up creating this dynamic between two characters, by the time you get to the end, if you've got the resolution that you want in order to then carry forward with those characters in any pleasing way with, you know, a book has got to create.

Have dramatic tension.

And to do that, you sort of have to be quite destructive with their lives in some ways.

Ways.

And I just feel you then end up in soap opera territory.

So I. I do tend to think that it is best to just run with them, enjoy the journey, and then leave them sort of gently set them down and say thank you for that and, you know, on to the next.

Because I just.

I. I get why people want more, but I don't think ultimately they'll thank you for it.

Yeah, I'm really funny with sequels, I think.

Like, sometimes I think I love the idea, but when somebody says coming, I'm.

Like, oh, I know, I know.

Shall we not.

So let's talk about some of these characters, then.

Let's talk about the women to start with.

So Raphaela in particular, I just said to you, I love her.

I loved her character.

I've really enjoyed her journey.

I mean, she has some really difficult moments.

But.

So in terms of.

You're saying you don't know how things are going to happen.

So what did Rafaela do when she landed in your mind then?

Did she lead the way or was.

You know, she was really a feeling.

It took me a while to sort of get her physicality.

In fact, I don't think I did have much physicality for her in the first draft.

I just sort of wanted to.

She was just like a vibe.

But she.

She's actually.

She's quite unusual for me as a character because she's incredibly passive, actually.

She's a very gentle spirit.

And I do normally write female characters who are a little bit more.

Don't say difficult, but a little bit more flawed and challenging in some way, which.

But I like doing that.

I don't see that as a bad thing.

I like characters to.

To not be perfect, to not be victims.

Like, I like the nuance.

But she sort of came along and I just felt she was just this quite ethereal character.

And.

And then she became almost doe.

Like.

Like she's incredibly gentle and a lot is sort of projected onto her.

And she was interesting in.

She was interesting to me because she knows what she feels, but it's impossible, really, for her to act on it.

And she is trying.

She's sort of, I suppose, wrestling with Duty.

But we.

She's got two very different prospects in her life and I. I found it interesting to have someone who's as gentle and passive as she is, faced with such challenging circumstances and trials.

And I obviously don't want to give any spoilers away, but, you know, she.

It was.

I liked sort of putting her through that story and having her come out strong and sort of bolder from it, whilst not losing herself while still remaining fundamentally who she is.

I didn't want her to be broken down by it, but I wanted her to sort of step into her power, so to speak.

And so she was a really interesting character for me.

I'm glad you loved her, because I did.

And it is that thing.

It's her sort of.

That's.

So, you know, when you say stepping into her power, that's exactly what it is.

You know, she.

She remains likable throughout.

So even when she, you know, finds herself in certain situations, she doesn't lose herself, she doesn't sort of act out, survive or whatever.

So, no, I thought she was fabulous.

All the women, actually, and they're sort of.

We were talking about this before, sort of matriarchal society of Puglia as well.

But I loved the sort of sisterhood.

Yes, her and Gina as well.

So did you have a particular female character that you felt more drawn to or you enjoyed writing more?

Gina, I found super easy to write because she's a ball of fire and she's full of energy and of course, she's a great foil to Rafaela.

So she.

She's a great counterpoint and she was able to do and say the things that Rafaela couldn't.

But she also propels the plot forward in lots of ways.

And so I really.

I didn't expect her to become as big a character as she became.

And that was one of the joys of sort of going on the journey.

It was like, oh, you're still with us.

This is fabulous.

We've moved.

But here you are, you know, and.

And it was lovely to have that and to really tie the girls so tightly together.

I. I do very often like writing the best friend characters because they can often do what the main protagonist can't.

Like they've got a bit more freedom.

And so, yeah, Gina.

All my Gina scenes I just wrote at pace because I was like, I know you, girl.

I know you.

I know what's happening here.

And I loved that she was so ballsy and unafraid and unapologetic and.

And very, you know, flawed and nuanced.

But we love her.

Like, we just love that girl.

She's fearless and.

And they're just a good egg.

Yeah.

And so loyal.

Yeah, she's wonderful.

Okay, so let's talk about the men.

Because while we have some great women, we have some great men, we have some not so great men.

Everything in balance.

But I loved the tension between them as well.

And as you say, writing from the.

The three points of view, I thought the men were done brilliantly.

I just loved the way you wrote them.

So I'd be really interested to know, how do you put yourself into a man's head or shoes to write those scenes and be so sort of believable in their voice?

I'm so chuffed you like them because it's hard.

And I'm sort of of the Jane Austen wisdom of write, write what you know.

And that always meant to me, don't write from a male perspective, because I don't know what's happening in.

In a man's mind.

But I do have two sons, so I. I have now, I feel, lived through, certainly the adolescent male mind.

And.

And so it was funny because, like I say, I hadn't set out writing a book thinking I was going to write two thirds of it from the male perspective, but I was.

I was just so interested in all their lives and all their different circumstances.

And I realized quite quickly that I wasn't really going to be accurately able to show them through the narrative, through Rafaela's perspective.

She would only see what she saw of their lives rather than us seeing their lives and.

And how they then project and come round to Rafaela and I.

So with Cosmo, for example, he's in the Grand Villa.

His sister Romula, he's very close to his younger sister Romola, who is, of course, Gina and Rafaela's sort of, again, childhood best friend.

And they very much made up a four when they were little.

And they were sort of all very gilded and a really tight little clique.

And that was quite interesting having Cosimo so slightly on the outside of the three girls.

He's with them, but he's.

He's sort of.

Not the older brother.

Their older brother.

Oh, what's his name?

Feddy.

Fede.

Thank you.

It was several years ago I wrote Love Fedy, but he holds himself apart.

He's very studious.

He is that bit older.

So he wasn't their playmate in the same way.

And so I loved that.

That's my dog.

That was my dog yowling.

I thought it was like a Child or a cat?

No, I'm not torturing children.

It's my puppies.

So I loved that Cosmo was the fourth leg of this quartet with the three girls.

But then also.

So there's that tension also with his changing feelings for Raffaella and what had happened the summer before the book opens, but then also his rivalry with the local boys, who actually are starting to take not.

I don't say ownership, but they're beginning to step up now and they're beginning to claim the women, so to speak.

You know, they're courting the girls all year round.

They're not there for.

Not just the six weeks of summer.

And so Cosmo sort of comes back and finds that actually, although he is still incred, you know, handsome, noble, rich, charismatic, charming, worldly, all the great things, actually, day in, day out, he's not there.

And Fawn has sort of stepped into the breach and can offer nothing, but he's there, you know, and.

And so you get this really good tension between the men where nothing is said outright for a long time, but you feel it growing.

And we see it growing because we see each of their perspectives.

They know what's happening.

Rafaela Lesso, she's less aware of that.

And I really felt like when I was writing both of them, the thing I kept in my head was just pare it down, just don't get too wordy, don't get too in your head, keep things quite brusque and to the point, because certainly my observation of my husband and my boys, the three males closest to me in my life, is they do speak in a different way.

They are much more straightforward and direct.

And, you know, and so I was.

I was very conscious of that when I was writing them.

I just thought, I want them.

I want them to feel male.

I don't want them.

I don't want them to feel like they've been written by a female writer.

And maybe they do.

But I've done my best to try and make them feel independently male and true to them, true in themselves.

But it was a challenge.

It was a hard thing to do.

And I, in my edit, in the edit stage, I spent a lot of time polishing up and going back over those scenes and really trying to make those feel true and really not just have the focus on their attentions on Rafaela, but actually between themselves, because they're all trying to find themselves as men and step into their masculinity and their adult malehood.

And so that was what I. I felt I wanted to Capture for them.

I mean, I think you did it brilliantly.

The thing I love with the two as well is they're so distinct, they're different voices and, you know, that's what made it so believable for me.

But also something about sort of seeing it from their gaze also made me then feel slightly more protective of Rafaela as well.

You're sort of seeing things that she's not and you kind of want to whisper in her ear a little bit.

Well, that's the thing.

Sometimes you feel like it's.

You're over hearing locker talks, so to speak, especially between the brothers.

You know, they're going to say things in private that they would never say within earshot, certainly not to her.

So you do.

Yeah, it does build.

But with.

For all of them.

I think that having time, private time with all of them really helps build them up so that they're not just romantic heroes or romantic heroines.

We see them with their families.

We see the things that are going on in their lives and the things that, you know, are failing and their frustrations and their hopes and their.

Their dreams and their, you know, you know, we.

We see them in the round and.

Yeah, I. I really did enjoy, you know, that aspect of writing them.

It's brilliant.

It's so clever and it just makes such a brilliant, brilliant read.

So we were talking before we came on and saying that there are some parts of Three Summers where there are some difficulties, difficult scenes.

There's some acts of violence, there's some heartbreak, there's some really emotional scenes.

Obviously you want sort of keep an air of escapism and the romance.

How do you know how far to push those sort of scenes for the balance?

Is it quite difficult?

Sort of.

It's so hard.

And I do think, especially now, there's an awareness of what you're putting on the page, what you're exposing the readers to.

You sort of have a duty of care not to.

Not to be reckless with what you do, not to be gratuitous, not to be frivolous with it.

So it has to absolutely be there for good reason, whatever it is.

You can't put it in for sensationalism, for thrills.

It has to have its place.

It has to be crucial to the plot.

And when it is there, are you being true to it?

And.

And if it is very dark, I do tend to think actually there's more power in stepping back than stepping in.

Like, you don't need to be right up close to the action.

Sometimes it's better to do it at a bit of distance or to let the read, to sort of take the reader up to it and then let them fill in the gaps.

Because we can all do that.

You know, readers are incredibly sophisticated.

Look at the amount of media and material we're all exposed to on a daily basis.

Everyone knows everything, every plot.

So readers are fully able to do that.

And you don't need to do the blow by blow.

You know, I'm not writing thrillers or crime stories.

It's so it's about.

You want to invoke the feeling, the terror, the, the fear, but you don't need to do that in a way that's.

Or the sadness, the horror, but you don't need to do that in a way that is gratuitous, you know, and, and so I do write those scenes really slowly.

I'm always sort of tiptoeing through them thinking how lightly can I write?

I always want to have the lightest possible touch in those scenes rather than going and swinging a club.

You know, the scene that sort of ends the first summer, which is, I hope incredibly shocking.

I mean it's meant to come as it is a surprise.

It.

I don't think anyone could anticipate it.

That was really, really hard to write.

But we write it again.

The joy of writing in the round through the three characters is that we see it from each of the characters perspectives.

And so that allows us to build up what happened and to give the reader the feeling that they need without being heavy handed about it.

I mean it was, it was a shock but I think it was done so well in that, you know, it's so important to the story and it just sort of really connected me to like, where are we going now?

How on earth is everything going to sort of resolve?

So it's pretty, but I feel like that's the same if it's.

Something sort of does feel like it's been put in sort of.

And there's no real need for it.

I just can't.

Yeah, I can't.

I don't, you know, I think there's enough darkness in the world.

So it's like I don't mind it in my books as long as it's in the right sort of.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I do, I do think the reader, certainly in my genre there's sort of a, a trust that goes between the reader and the writer that they trust that.

Yes.

I mean I, I don't write, I don't write fluffy books but.

And quite often I do go into quite dark themes.

But I do always think, do you know what?

This is rooted in reality?

This has been someone's story.

And you never know, it could be someone who is reading your book.

So you.

I always sort of think if someone had actually gone through what I'm writing about, you know, you hold them in your mind as you're doing it, so that you, you know, you can't shy away from putting things in if it's warranted for the story, but you've got to do it in a way that is not sensationalist and that is respectful to the reader.

And you sort of hold them through it and you don't just leave them there with all these terrible things and, you know, it's there for a reason and we move on and away and we feel better.

So.

Yeah, so I'm loving that, hearing how much you care for the reader through these scenes.

But, you know, when you're talking about your characters as well and how real they are for you, is it quite difficult sometimes when you, you know, the scenes coming, to have your characters put into a situation that's really quite terrible.

Does it take its toll on you as well to write?

It's.

Yes.

It's not nice because you absolutely have to put your head there.

You literally have to walk in their.

In their shoes.

So you have.

In order for me to convey how they're feeling, I have to feel it.

So I really have to sink into.

You have to sink into quite a deep, lucid state of what do I see, what do I feel?

What is happening?

You know, it's.

It's.

All the senses are engaged.

You have to be invoking that for the reader.

And.

And it's difficult also if people then afterwards think you've done it lightly or it's been a bit pithy.

So I'll give an.

I won't do any spoilers for this book, but for the St Kilda series, in the first book of that, there's a really sad scene where the islanders are being evacuated off the island and they have to drown the dogs.

And I got a lot of heat back on that from some readers because they were like, how could you do that?

To have a dog, you had to have a dog license and you had to have money to pay for a dog license.

And the islanders came from a barter economy where they had no cash and there was nothing that grew on this island.

There were no trees, no crops grew.

The only things the islanders even could eat.

Were the bird, the seabirds in nesting in the cliffs and their eggs.

There was no way for these dogs to survive if they left them on the island and they couldn't afford to bring them to the mainland.

And so it was the humane thing for the islanders to do what they did.

And it was rooted in fact and truth.

But.

And I wrote it.

I have three dogs.

There is no bigger dog lover than me.

And it was incredibly difficult to write the scene that I wrote.

And in fact, I did do a lot of editing on that scene so that what ended up in the book was not fully what I had written.

I just found it, didn't want it to go out like that.

But it's difficult because, you know, if people think you've just done it for kicks or you've just done it to, to make, to make a noise, it's like, no.

Yeah.

It's so funny, isn't it?

With like.

I mean, I've talked about this with authors before.

It's like nothing can trigger a reader more, I think, than if it's an animal.

Don't kick the puppy.

Yeah.

I mean, honestly, you could do what you want to the humans, but don't kick the puppy.

I know, it's true.

It's true.

Oh, as mine's sleeping behind me, So obviously there is the darkness there.

But it is a beautiful full read as well.

And I just, I.

When we just.

I wanted to go back to the settings, we obviously talked about Puglia, but we didn't talk about the time and that the sort of 50s as well.

Italy is just beautiful.

But I think Italy in the late 50s is just.

If I could time travel, that's where I'd want to go back.

So just wondered, how did you sort of, sort of settle on that year?

What was.

So I got really lucky actually, because I hadn't.

When I went there, I hadn't really got an era in mind.

I was just looking, I was, you know, looking around, getting the vibe of the place.

But of course, Italy in the 50, you know, we know the great.

You know, one of my favorite, in fact, my favorite film is Roman Holiday and.

Oh, I love it, I love it.

I can always watch that film and you know, the glamour, the fashions, the music, just all of it.

But Italy, and particularly the south of Italy in the post war period.

Because of course, obviously at the beginning of the Second World War, Italy under Mussolini was with Hitler.

And then of course they changed at the end over to the Allies, but so they had been very badly affected.

There was A lot of fighting throughout Italy, obviously the Allied invasion from Sicily and moved up through Puglia into Italy from there.

So there had been a lot of devastation.

And Italy took a long time to rebuild after the Second World War.

So that was 45 when the war ended.

Well, we're picking up in 57.

That isn't that long in term.

And so what had happened was that a lot of the younger generation in the south had moved up to the north.

That was where all the, the factories were being built, the industrialization was happening.

And so that was where sort of the money was all going.

And there was not really any investment in, in the south.

Which of course is why the Mafia stronghold began to establish there, you know, because it was, it was quite a different community, the north versus the south of, of Italy.

So it was a very, you know, Italy had been underinvested and particularly in the south.

And what had happened was the Sinicita film studios had opened up in Rome and also luxury.

And what was happening was Hollywood was coming to Rome and they were doing so much filming in Italy.

And at the same time we, we had designers like Emilio Pucci who were sort of the Florentine and the Roman ateliers were beginning to put on catwalk shows.

So suddenly fashion was becoming more of a thing to the man on the street.

They were putting on shows that were then being reported in the magazines.

And I used to be a fashion editor back in the day.

So of course this was sort of my world, my era.

And consumer magazines were becoming a thing where fashions were being shown.

And the paparazzi, because all of Hollywood stars were in Rome filming, you now had the birth of the paparazzi, taking photographs of all these amazing stars falling out of the very glamorous nightclubs.

And they were all having affairs up and down, you know, these coastal roads and their beautiful sports cars.

So.

And you had the Mille Miglia, you know, that these fantastic, glamorous, you know, the 24 hour road race up and down the length of Italy and they're all in their Ferraris.

So there was a lot of glamour and everything sort of converged all at the same time in film, in fashion, in popular culture, with music and with magazines.

And I just felt.

And of course in the wider world, we had the birth of the teenager Elvis Presley in America, rock and roll, you know, slightly before the Beatles, but, you know, that was all coming.

We're wearing jeans and denim, you know, everything was becoming geared towards youth.

And so in Italy, it was this particular pinpoint In Time, where you've got this amazing Mediterranean culture, they've got their Piaggio scooters and gelato, you know, gelato ice creams.

You've got amazing films coming out, fashions.

It all just sort of felt incredibly condensed for this part of this time in Italy.

And.

And I did read a very good book, which was sort of bringing all those strands together, and I read it cover to cover, and by the end, I was like, okay, we're doing the 50s.

It's such a great era.

And it's.

Yeah.

Anyway, the whole book is wonderful.

It's such a brilliant read.

It's out in paperback today, and, yeah, I hope we've convinced you to go and grab a copy.

So, Karen, we're going to talk about the five books that you've picked, then.

So how did you find picking your five books?

Was it easy for you?

Hard.

So hard.

I mean, you know, I'm ancient, so I've read many books at this point.

It's like.

What do you mean you want five?

Oh, my God.

So it was tough.

It was tough.

It was tough.

I'm sorry, it doesn't make me very popular, but it's a really interesting list, actually, so.

And I've actually had one on my shelf for ages to read, so I'm really interested to see whether you can convince me to pick.

Oh, okay.

Don't tell me which one it is, tell me after.

Okay, I will do.

So, do you want to tell us about your first book choice, then?

So the first one, and this is in no particular order, but the first one I would say, is Elena Ferrante's My Brilliant Friend.

I am going to cheat a little bit and actually say the Neapolitan series as a whole, because it is four books, but it.

But I've said that because it is following these two best friends throughout the.

The whole of their lives.

So they.

They all belong together.

And so really it is one book, but just told over four volumes.

That's how I think of it.

That's.

So that's why I'm getting away with that one.

But it.

I read it and I. I was blown away.

I was just blown away.

Now, obviously, I read these books long before I wrote my book, and it.

It didn't obviously inform me a little bit, but, my God, Elena Ferrante is the queen.

I. I could but hope, you know, to you know, to write what she's doing.

But she.

So it had sort of given me a really good grounding in the.

Certainly the poverty that existed in initially at that point.

But what I.

What I loved, loved so much about that series and about that book was she's writing about two women who become friends as girls.

And it's not in any way a fairy tale.

Like, it is a really grueling, hard read just from the hard knocks of life.

And it's not.

There isn't anything particularly sensationalist in it.

You will read much tougher books elsewhere, but it's so rooted in humanity.

Like, it's so about these two young girls navigating life.

And I.

What I love that she did was that they are each other's biggest supporters, but they're also fierce enemies at times.

Like, there is so much tension and friction between them, and she doesn't shy away from that.

And what you come away with is these two women who ultimately, this is the most important relationship in both their lives.

It's more important than their relationships with their families, with their parents, their siblings, their future husbands, their own children.

And it is so beautifully balanced.

And it just pivots all the time.

And sometimes with my brilliant friend, you'll be thinking, well, which one is the brilliant friend?

Because they're both brilliant in their own very different ways.

And it's just.

I. I never use this word, but it is genuinely a work of genius.

I love it.

If you haven't read that one, you have to.

This is the one that has been on my shelves, Karen.

And do you know, I. I'm, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, see, this sounds like my perfect cup of tea.

It sounds exactly like my type of read.

Do you know what's put me off about it?

And it's so silly in the beginning.

Sorry.

For people who are listening, I'm just showing the list of characters.

It's a lot.

It's a lot.

That always really puts me up.

And there's a lot because I'm like, my brain's not.

I know, right?

That really puts me off.

And it's like so many characters.

Is it quite easy to.

It is.

It is.

First of all, it's so rooted in the community.

You're with them all the time, so you just get to know them really quickly.

I would just say start slow.

Try and commit.

In that first scene with the doll, just try and commit.

Because she really builds up a world in this very, very, very small pocket of Naples.

And it's sort of hard for us as non Italians like it.

Why would I?

But also, they.

They speak in dialect what we think of as Italian.

That's not what they're speaking.

They're speaking in dialect.

That was.

It's almost like reading Jane Austen.

Like, you have to get used to sort of the form of the book, but it's.

It's.

It is just a real living and breathing thing.

It has a pulse and, you know, when you have read it.

I also never say this.

I never, ever think that adaptations can ever match the books.

And this doesn't.

Certainly doesn't beat the books.

But there is a TV adaptation of it.

Oh, my God.

Watch it.

It is fabulous, and it is such a joy because it allows you to go back into the world.

And they cast it so well.

So, okay, you.

For me, you have to do this.

You actually have to do this, and then email me and say, I've read it.

Okay.

All right.

I need you to read it.

Okay.

This series, so dangerous.

Should I start now?

Yes.

You wouldn't mind?

Okay, I will add it to my list and I will try and read.

Yes, to read it.

I think it's about seven I've added from this series.

You will be.

When you read it.

I very much hope.

I expect you to really just then be so happy that there's more in the.

In the series, because you won't want to let them go.

You'll be like, okay, what do you mean?

We're stopping?

No, we're not.

Okay, I will do that then.

Okay, so let's talk about your second book choice.

What was book number two for?

The second book is tiny.

Like, you could literally read it in two hours.

It's called the Summer Book by Tove Janssen.

She wrote the.

So that's even before my era.

So I sort of vaguely knew the Moomins, but not really.

Certainly really didn't know much about her.

But I picked it up one day.

It's tiny, and I love it.

And I sort of love it for the same reasons that I love Elena Ferranti.

But it's.

It's just a bit different in that it's set in the Finnish archipelago.

Everyone thinks it's Swedish, but it's actually Finnish.

But it doesn't matter because it's the same body of water and it's all the action takes place on this tiny rock that you can walk around in a matter of minutes.

And there's nothing on this, I don't think there's running water.

There's certainly not electricity.

Like it is a scratch existence on a rock basically in the Baltic Sea.

And it's about a grandmother and a young girl who's about 10.

The father is on the island.

He's sort of off the page.

He's there, but we don't see him.

He's just working.

The girl has recently lost her mother.

We don't know why, we don't know what's happened, but she's.

She's there, she's grieving and she's there with her grandmother.

And it is the most glorious story about feminine.

No, I don't know.

It's not femininity.

I don't know if this is a word.

Female hood.

It like.

Do you know what I mean?

It's about a woman at the end of her life and a woman and a young girl at the beginning of her life and about how they meet in the middle.

And again, I love it because it's raw.

They argue, they fight, they are completely unreasonable, but they love each other more than anyone else in the world.

And the way she creates action on a rock in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do but play with moss and stones.

And yet somehow it is this completely compelling, compelling little novella.

It is beautiful and it's laugh out loud funny and I just love it because again, it's just about women.

Girls being girls, women being women, females being females, you know, and it's, it's just wonderful.

It's.

I think we all should read it.

I'm gonna have to buy that one.

That sounds brilliant.

I have read your next one though.

Okay, well, that's one I'm gonna definitely add.

Okay, so you hear about book number three.

So book number three is I think, life after life and I love that.

The reason I hero worship Kate Atkinson, she, along with Elena Franti, is one of my all time greats.

But I really love that book because of what she does with the form of it, the way she takes a story and then we go through and it's that sort of sliding doors moment.

And she is giving, I suppose it appeals to the novelist in me in terms of she is giving her characters that we have lived a life with, we have gone through that narrative arc and then she begins again and gives them alternatives.

And as a writer, when you have committed to a course of action with Characters, like, you can only then see it one way.

Like in the way that for us, you know, your life is your life to date.

It can't be anything else to.

Now, my life is the same.

It can't be anything other than what it is.

And she's done that with her characters, but then she does it again in a different way and it's like, oh, my God, it's brilliant.

And.

And of course, because you're so invested in those characters at that point, because you've lived the life with them, when you then see their different fates, it's difficult to sit with that as a reader.

So it sort of worked from me for both as a reader and as a writer, because it's like mind bending, because it's like, you're breaking my heart, but also, my God, my brain trying to think, how did she do that?

So.

So that's why I just, you know, love that book.

It's a great book.

And we read it for my book club.

Was it last year, maybe?

And it's so funny because when I. I saw it on your list, it's like it re.

Downloaded in my brain.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, that's the one where this.

And I was like, that's so clever.

And it is.

It's really, really clever.

Is there a TV ad or a movie of this?

I believe there is.

I haven't seen it.

I'm always nervous.

I think it came out quite recently, actually.

I feel like it did.

It just popped into my head, actually.

Then I was like, oh, I'd be interested to see how.

I don't know how they would translate that on just.

I mean, I'm sure.

Very clever.

This is sort of why I have to see it, I think, because I want to see how they do it.

But what she.

She's like William Boyd in that.

She's very good in giving you a character's life story.

You sit with them, you walk through with them, and it feels so completely real and it's so beautiful.

And like, you.

You, like, you come, you get to the end and you're like, I'm a different person because I've genuinely lived that person's life.

I've stood in their shoes and she does that.

But then to do it again and then again and then again.

I mean, what a clever woman.

Yeah.

I'm really excited about her new book.

Is it October or.

Sounds brilliant.

Because I'm with her publishers, I'm like, so do we have an advanced copy.

That I can go.

I mean, yeah, I'm like, I don't know why I don't want to wait.

As soon, as soon as you can let anyone see it, please let me see it.

This year is crazy, isn't it?

It's like Kate Atkinson and Patch.

Yes, yes, I know.

I can't wait.

Okay, so sorry, I lost my train.

But where are we with book number four then?

Book number four?

I think I said Pride and Prejudice, difficult with Jane Austen because I'm a complete Jane Austen fan, but I think it pro.

I, I'm sort of torn between that and Emma, because I love Emma.

Mr. Woodhouse, laugh out loud.

I love him so much.

But for me, okay, there are two reasons why I chose it.

One is that when I read this book, I was, I did an English degree at uni and I was applying for Oxford for English and I was reading all the classics to get ready for my Oxford exam.

And so I was reading all the Jane Austen's and I fell in love with her and I, I loved her in a way that I didn't love.

For example, the Bronte sisters.

I didn't love Dickon.

You know, I was just like, austen's my girl.

And I read her books and I, I didn't get into Oxford.

I passed the exam and then I had the interviews and I had a little bit of a sort of anxiety thing happened where I got tunnel hearing.

It was a bit weird in my final thing, so I didn't get in.

And I was heartbroken, absolutely heartbroken.

And I went to Exeter University instead and I met a girl there who I became friends with.

I didn't become friends with her at uni, but I met her straight up.

I knew her at uni, sort of, we had friends of friends.

And then I met her in London straight after we graduated.

And through her I met her brother who I then married.

And as a result, I've always been very much of the view that what is meant for you will not go past you.

And I wanted to go to Oxford so badly.

I was devastated when I didn't get in and.

But if I hadn't gone to Exeter, I wouldn't have met Els, who was now my sister in law.

And I wouldn't met my husband, I wouldn't be living in Sussex with my three glorious kids and the ginger army, my dogs.

And so partly for me, Jane Austen is tied up in all that.

That, that time when I was reading the classics and, and I was sort of at that point in my life and I sort of learned this big Life lesson, you know, of let things be what they will be.

Don't over interfere, like, allow things just to unfold.

So.

So that sort of inspired a big life ethos for me and it.

It.

That book represents that.

But also, I love Austin in and of herself because I love what she did with, certainly with Lizzie Bennet.

She gave us a woman who didn't, at a.

Who at a time, didn't have any power, but she made her powerful.

And again, you'll see a recurring theme in all my literature, but also the characters I try to write.

I. I like women to be enfranchised.

I want them to step into their power.

I don't like victimhood and I don't.

I don't want conquering heroes coming in and saving the day.

I want our women to be serving themselves.

Thanks very much.

And so I really felt like she was writing ahead of her time.

I mean, you know, she was writing at a point when women could not work.

She couldn't, you know, she.

She could not vote.

Like, she couldn't leave the house without, you know, an Es, you know, a male escort of a, you know, a companion.

And I just feel that she was able to sort of put across feminine power, soft power.

And I.

And I.

And it still stands true today, you know, and she's witty and she's wry and she's just so quietly intelligent and she's elegant with it.

And I just think that's just a wonderful example so in and of herself, you know, I. I love Austen, but I also love, love her for.

For what she represents in my life.

On a personal level, I love that.

I absolutely do.

It's such a hard lesson when you're young, isn't it?

Like, you know, when something doesn't go the way, you know, you've got your dreams.

Oh, devastating.

It really is.

But when you look back now, you have that sort of wisdom of like, yes, it's a horrible knock, but it's just knocking you onto the path you're meant to be on.

It is like, it's just so hard when you're young to see that it is.

My granny always said, what's meant for you won't go past you.

My other granny said, it's a long road with no turns.

And recently my daughter's on her gap year at the moment.

She's about to start at uni in September, and she was really disappointed with her college allocation and she.

And she was like, oh, no, I don't want to.

And I said, darling, let it be.

Like, it's.

You're there for a reason.

It's all going to be fine.

And that's the sort of thing where it plays out, where I'm like, let's not.

Not get overly involved in this.

You're at a great uni.

You know, there's no point getting fixated on.

It must be this.

It comes down to the.

The year group you've got.

And I said, this is where you are.

Let's go with that, you know, so.

And I love that with Jane Austen because I often say, wouldn't it be amazing if she could sort of just sort of time travel and see if, like, I mean, she wouldn't be able to get her head around how we are still, you know, constantly remaking her books into adaptations, still being talked about, their favorites.

I mean, it just would be so incredible for her to realize, you know.

Yes, she didn't have that sort of acknowledgement then or that sort of power in her own sort of right as a woman, but now you are just everywhere.

Still would be amazing, wouldn't it?

You just.

You wish she could have known how important she would be.

Just generations of women and still more to come.

I mean.

Yeah, an amazing thing.

It really is.

It's incredible.

Okay, so we're gonna move on to your last book choice, then.

Yes.

Birdsong Sebastian, folks.

And I do, you know, I mean, it was a while ago that I read this book, but it's.

It was one.

And it's.

It's so meaty because, of course, it's written in a time of war.

And I sort of always loved the contrast between literally scenes in the trenches and what these men are living through.

But then also this love story that's happening as well.

And I. I just loved the balancing of that book.

It was heart all the way through.

It was so beautifully written.

And it's actually a book that I think about almost on a daily basis.

Just in that.

That final scene where the last guns fall silent and there's this pause and then the bird song starts up.

And every time I walk, I live in the Ashdown Forest and Sussex.

I've got three dogs, and I'm walking every day in the forest, and I'm always hearing the birds and.

And I'm very conscious of it.

And I.

So often that pops into my head, what, you know, this idea of the natural world reviving once humanity has done its worst and just the hope that is in that.

And, you know, we're living in bleak times at the moment, politically, geopolitically, you know what.

What a mess.

But for me, going out into the forest every day, walking with my dogs, listening to the birds, just gives you hope.

And it sort of calms my mind and my nervous system, you know, and it sets me up for the day, gets me going creatively, just sort of moves me into that creative space.

And I just think it's an incredibly beautiful, important book.

So not an easy read, but a very worthwhile one.

This is where my poor little perimenopausal brain.

I wish when I started reading, I had, like, a journal that I kept because, I mean, obviously I'll use, like, storygraph and things like that.

Now I read the synopsis, and I was.

I'm sure I've read this, but I can't remember parts of it.

So I'm like, have I actually read it?

But it's before I sort of started logging, so I think I need.

I'm sure I'd remember if I had.

But then I say that some books, I'm like.

When I start reading them, I'm like, no, I have read it, yes.

So I need to sort of go back and have a look at it.

Parts of it feel like being in a painting.

You know, it's.

It's.

And then others, like, you're.

You're.

You've literally got your face in the mud.

Like, it's just a book of such extreme contrast, but so incredibly lyrical.

And of course, course, he is a sublime writer.

And he.

You know, I just read these lines and I think, Karen, absorb this.

Learn and absorb.

Because, you know, what a great thing, what a great experience to be able to sit down and live through that and to feel all that.

And I think it's really important that we do.

You know, it's really, you know, again, the times that we're living in, so much is happening where people are ignorant of what's happened in the past.

They don't know.

They're not learning about history in that way in schools, and they're not reading books that are allowing them to also live that experience.

And it really matters.

You know, it's just important.

So I think now more than ever, it's a book people should be reading.

I think that with, like, curriculum and things as well.

And, like, you know, I think we really need to sort of think about what we're putting in front of children, sort of.

You know, there are books that probably been overlooked that are so important.

I just say at the moment that's, like, it's really important that we're talking about And I think fiction is such a great place to sort of learn and understand other opinions and sort of where things have gone wrong in the past as well.

So.

Okay.

So I know you said you found it really hard to pick the five, but if I said to you you could only read one of them again.

I know the angst.

The angst I have felt over this.

I think it's so mean.

It's like Sophie's Choice.

I think it would have to be.

Oh, God, I'm still wavering.

I would never do it to you.

Like, I would never say something.

You could only have one book.

I'm not that mean.

I think I'd have to say the Elena Franti Neapolitan series.

Just because there's so much of it.

I've got more to sit with.

But.

But the really close second is the summer book.

Because I just.

It's just beautiful.

And.

Yeah.

God, it's hard.

I'm sorry.

I wouldn't do that.

I'd send you wherever it is that you have only one book.

I'd send you with them all.

We could.

Buddy, read this one together.

Yes, exactly.

Oh, Karen, it has been so wonderful to chat.

You have absolutely loved it.

Thank you so much.

I've loved it.

It's been wonderful.

Thank you.

I absolutely loved that.

I know I say it every week, but honestly, I do think I have the best job in the whole world, getting to talk to incredible authors about amazing books.

I really hope that you've enjoyed that episode as much as I have.

All of the books that we've talked about today, including Three Summers, which is out today in paperback, are linked in the show notes with links to five, so they'll be nice and easy for you to find.

I'll be back on Tuesday with a little Tuesday teaser to let let you know who's coming up on Thursday.

And I really hope that you'll join me for those conversations, too.

In the meantime, thank you so much for listening, and I will see you on Tuesday.