EP 408 - What happens when British charm collides with German order in the workplace?

In part 3 of our Business Without Baggage series, we speak to professor and senior partner at GTK Germany - Manfred Klein - who breaks down the surprising differences - and hidden similarities - between the UK and Germany’s business cultures.

From awkward handshakes and endless small talk to rigid agendas and direct feedback, discover why British and German colleagues often clash in meetings, negotiations and everyday work.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

Why German efficiency and precision frustrates British colleagues

How British politeness and vagueness confuses German teams

The truth about work - life boundaries in Germany vs the UK

Why Germans trust process while Brits trust personality

How cultural differences can make or break international business deals

If you’re doing business with Germany, managing international teams, or just curious about cross-cultural communication, this conversation is packed with real-world insights and a few laughs.

*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*

Spotify Video Chapters:

00:00 Business Without Baggage part 3 - Germany

00:43 Meet Manfred - A Legal Heavyweight

01:16 The Importance of Formality and Punctuality

02:20 Setting and Following an Agenda

04:53 Work-Life Boundaries in Germany

17:05 Direct Communication and Feedback

29:14 The Role of Hierarchy and Family Businesses

39:25 Social Security and Employee Expectations

40:54 Understanding German Employee Benefits

41:25 Work-Life Balance in Germany

42:05 Challenges in the German Health and Pension Systems

42:54 Maternity and Parental Leave Policies

44:01 Declining Birth Rates and Social Security

46:26 Immigration and Cultural Integration

48:05 German Cultural Traits and Business Etiquette

49:15 Economic Challenges and Quantitative Easing

50:25 Direct Communication and Efficiency in Germany

57:00 Business Collaboration Between Germany and UK

59:16 Ease of Doing Business in Germany

01:09:00 Common Mistakes When Doing Business in Germany

01:11:03 Visa and Property Ownership in Germany

01:13:50 Andy Wears German Carnival Outfit

01:15:19 Business or Bullshit quiz!

01:18:04 Wrap Up

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If you'd like to be on the show, get in contact - mail@businesswithoutbullshit.me

Ever wondered why Germans take handshakes so seriously?

And why showing up without an agenda could kill your deal before it starts?

In this episode, we sit down with Professor Manfred Klein, our good friend, lawyer, tax advisor, ex judge and all round heavyweight to decode the do's and the don'ts of doing business in Germany.

From punctuality to punchlines, it's business without bullshit meets business without small talk.

Welcome to a very special episode with a very special title, Business Without Baggage.

A series where we dive into the often challenging world of global business and culture.

We'll be talking to our friends from around the world about what it's really like to do business with the countries that they live in.

And today's guest is none other than our very good friend, Manfred Klein.

Manfred is senior partner at gtk, a heavyweight accounting and legal firm headquartered in Cologne with offices across Germany.

Manfred is not just a lawyer and tax advisor, he's a professor, a former fiscal judge and one of the sharpest minds in cross border tax law.

He's advised on everything from M A and IPOs to private equity deals and international restructuring, often with one foot in the courtroom and the other in the boardroom.

Brilliant.

Manfred, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Obviously you are German for your sins, as we may say in this country.

So you know, just, just entering into that sort of conversation in terms of doing business in Germany and you know, what, what is it like?

We obviously in Britain have quite a lot of preconceptions and I think, I think the Germans and the Brits have a lot in common actually as well.

But you know, what do you, what do you think is really important to Germany or in Germany in terms of business culture?

You know, in terms of Brits, punctuality is important, although as you know, I was 10 minutes late.

But what do you think is important.

When you, when you start a meeting?

It's a quite a formal address you have.

It's for a greeting.

You expect a firm handshake.

So if you are missing the handshake, your, the German counterpart would be missing something.

Okay, so start with a clear walk in the room, eyeball to eyeball.

Strong, firm handshake.

Right?

Okay.

What happens if you do sloppy handshake?

No good, no good, no good.

Sloppy handshake, sloppy mind.

And then.

Well, we are quite agenda driven so we expect something.

We come to a meeting well prepared and want the outcome to be detailed and comprehensive.

So we won't start with the brainstorming or anything like that.

We would maybe start With a bit of small talk.

But that is only a prelude, it's not a performance, as maybe in the uk.

So we really try to get straight to the point.

That's interesting.

Who sets the agenda for a meeting?

Do you?

Both.

You.

Has to be an agenda.

You can't just sort of wander into a meeting.

So you agree on an agenda beforehand?

Beforehand, yes.

Always.

Always.

So you say, I'm going to meet you Tuesday, 3 o'.

Clock.

Yeah.

And then it would be, if you want to meet a German, you should say, and should we clarify the agenda?

What, and spend 5, 10 minutes clarifying the talking points?

Otherwise it would be a waste of time.

Yeah, arguably.

I mean, arguably.

We just love wasting time and we wonder why our productivity so low.

So, firm handshake, a formal address.

And that really means that you're saying to someone, you're calling them by their full name, you know, Would I say professor to you?

You're a professor, aren't you?

Professor Klein.

Fantastic to meet you.

Firm handshake.

Is that important to use sort of, you know, the prefixes, the mister, the professor and the Doctor.

Yeah, you would start with that.

So I start with surnames too?

With surnames.

So there Mr. Klein and Mr. Ori, or Mrs.

If there is a doctor.

It's a doctor.

Mr.

Doctor.

So it's her doctor.

So don't miss the Mr.

When there is a doctor.

Oh, you do both.

Yes, you do both.

And you always use the higher title.

So I'm often addressed as Professor.

Yes.

But since I'm not in an academic world, when we have a meeting, many would use Doctor, but they would use it until I say, you can have the short version.

And then they.

I would say Mr. Klein, but we would still be on Z terms, so we wouldn't use Zoo, Z, her, Klein, Zee, ha, Ori.

What does Z mean?

Z means Sie is the formal address.

U is the first name basis.

Du you what you always would use because you don't have the sie and the du.

No, so.

And we would use the formal Z address.

Well, that's great advice already, mate.

So sort of bowling in the room and being terribly casual.

That's a bit stressful for a German.

That's a bit like, you know, slop, as you say, slop.

Sloppy handshake, sloppy mind sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah, that is how I termed it.

But, well, we, we like to have these.

Well, we, we separate.

We have these work life boundaries, you know, we like a clear separation between private and business.

We do not want to be disturbed in the evenings, on the weekends, you know, because business is business, life is life.

So we have only, you know, we have 80 years times 50 weeks.

So we have 4,000 weekends, that's it.

So how many?

We have 4,000 weekends.

That's it.

Life is short and we respect that.

We respect these life boundaries and that comes also with do and sie.

So when we are doing business and we are not friends, we are normally on Z terms.

God, it's terrifying.

Whenever anyone breaks life down, people do those sort of things.

They have it on their wall, don't they, when they sort of tick it off, you know?

Cause it sounds.

But that's 4,000 if you live to 80.

And let's face it, you don't remember any of the weekends up until you're 18.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like you're at school or gosh, you know what a thought.

Shouldn't have mentioned that now.

No, no, I think it's really important.

So you must agree, the agenda now, we don't have, we never have the time to do that.

We just email people and go, hey, can we chat on Tuesday?

I guess there's a little, what are we chatting about?

But people here will just sort of agree, like, okay, we'll decide when we meet what we're going to discuss sort of thing.

So you've got to build in that step to say, I would like to talk to you and you know, be respectful about these things.

And then it was interesting when you said outcomes, detailed and comprehensive.

So.

So it needs an agenda so you know exactly what it is you're trying to resolve.

You like getting into the detail of some of how that might work.

Now, I've obviously had many meetings with German people and I've experienced that, you know, my British bread is thinking, right, time to move on, because we'll get lost in the detail here.

But they will go and want to go into a bit more detail about it.

And it takes longer as a result.

I'm like, well, we can't unless we can agree here.

But it's almost what the German mindset is.

I would rather get three things clarified in detail, agreed and signed off than seven things roughly discussed.

Is that almost exactly.

And that is why we prefer an agenda, because then we can prepare and once you are prepared, you can have a detailed outcome, you know, so maybe we used that earlier with meetings, like brainstorming meetings.

We wouldn't have it that much.

Do you have a meeting that you sometimes would say, well, it is a brainstorming meeting.

Yeah.

I mean, if the two of us would be speaking face to face, that could be a brainstorming meeting.

But formal meeting with several participants would not be a brainstorming meeting.

Oh, that's interesting.

The difference between formal and informal there is how many people are in the meeting.

If it's just one to one, it can be more informal.

Well, it's about wasting time.

Right.

If you think you can do it in a structured way without preparing, you do it.

If you think there are so many participants that it would be just a waste of time just talking about something without a concrete outcome, then you would rather not set up a meeting, but prepare beforehand, have an agenda, and then do it as a.

Do you think this has been like this way for 100 or however many years?

I mean, Germany's, you know, whatever.

150.

Depends what you count as Germany, but.

Or is it.

Because when you say it, it's funny because it almost sounds like, you know, after the, you know, the terrible position Germany was left in after the Second World War, it obviously had to rebuild itself and it would have been pretty ruthless.

The reality of that, as in the.

We don't have time to.

Around here.

Yeah.

This isn't like, oh, we're having a lovely time and we.

This is serious now.

We've got a.

And therefore you.

I can imagine a scientific approach taking over in terms of people would not be turning up to meetings all relaxed break brainstorming.

It would be like, what are we doing?

How are we getting there?

We have to rebuild this country.

And.

And you did just like Korea did incredibly successfully overtake almost every other nation in the world.

And you, I mean, do you have any sense whether this is something deeply inherent in what it is to be German that goes further back or whether or not maybe this business culture was formed or affected quite a lot by having to rebuild a country, you know, after the single war.

Do you have a view on that?

Interesting perspective.

I haven't thought about that, but it truly has fostered that attitude.

I would say it has a logic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting about work, life, boundaries.

I mean, the Brits are actually the same about that.

Certainly.

Certainly the weekend we're probably a little more.

A little less ruthless about our weeks because we're so inefficient on our meetings.

You know, we're still chatting at 7pm thinking, oh, we better go to dinner and get drunk now and work this out.

Okay, that's great.

So I think that's really clear.

Is anything else to anything Else you would, you would say about having a meeting with someone in terms of, you know, because that's, I guess, that we've been talking about sort of the formality of it, you know, when, when do you get to relax?

Then you get to relax and laugh.

You know, when would I. I've had a meeting with a German.

We did the agenda.

I tried to follow their system as much as possible.

You know, I'm trying, you know, let's imagine the scenario, the scenario.

Someone's coming to do business in Germany.

I want to do business in Germany, which by the way, a lot of people do.

You have the largest market in Europe.

You know, it experience that many, many, many companies from across the world will look at Europe and they'll wish to do the UK and Germany as often their primary two targets, you know, initially.

Well, you know, if they're English speaking, they will certainly go to the uk where they don't have to change all their language, and then Germany to the size of the market.

So I've come in, I've, I've had some formal meetings where, if your private time is so precious, do you offer to go for a pint in the pub?

Is it.

Where does that come in?

We get more relaxed during lunch, having common lunch and in the evenings, of course, but we clearly separate.

So it's free time, it's work time.

So.

Yes, but in general, small talk is not that much of an art in your country as in the uk.

So it's small talk for you.

Sometimes it's something like a performance.

Right.

For us, it's a prelude to ease into the agenda, to have a smooth transition into the agenda.

So we, we are more hesitant about that and about disclosing private things.

We might have less topics as well, I would say.

We don't talk about the weather, not that much as you do.

We would talk about sports, we would talk about culture, not politics.

That much history is a no go.

Yeah.

Interesting.

And you know what?

Those are big topics.

I mean, I struggle with small talk.

You know, small talk, technically, it's talking about bugger all.

I find it really difficult.

But you're certainly right.

There's.

There is a dance, a little bit of a beginning of a meeting where we use a lot of humor and there's just, there's just this rubbishy, vague chat with.

Rubbish is unfair.

But it is just sort of very.

It doesn't really mean anything.

You're absolutely right.

It's a sort of performance.

It's just a, it's, it's it's reading body language, it's giving everyone a chance, you know, and it does.

I think some countries do it much longer.

I mean in some cultures you've got to talk for hours and hours about nothing until they do any business.

The Brits want to get on with business too.

We're actually quite similar, but there's just a bit more, there's 10 minutes at the start of a bit more.

I think a bit more socialization and sort of, you know, letting people, letting people sort of show a little bit of their character.

I mean, I don't know about you as Germans, but we're bloody nervous socially.

You know, we, we actually are quite nervous in these meetings.

So it's a sort of nervous thing almost.

Okay, well let's move on.

And so the commercial culture and the habits, like, you know, we take a example, you know, how long does it take to get an invoice, to get paid?

What do you feel about those aspects?

Well, I think as Germans we are quite reliable payers, have a reliable payment behavior.

I would say it Normally takes like 14 days, maybe less.

The big companies sometimes take more.

They take like 60 plus days, but that is not usual.

So if you're dealing with German Mittelstand, it's normally like two weeks.

Yeah, two weeks.

And would that be the terms on the invoice?

You could set payments a term on the invoice.

Two weeks.

Okay.

And again, that sort of sense of order that, you know, if you're not paying, it's a, it's a little bit of a black mark about.

Interesting.

Yeah, yeah.

So you won't get the next job, the next business and, and there is a pre court trial for that which is quite effective.

What if you haven't paid your invoice in what, 60 days or 90 days or.

Yeah, I would say it takes like four weeks and then you either have your money or you're before court.

Wow.

And how late do they have to be until you would do that?

When it's due?

I mean when you say, oh right, if it's you, then it's due and.

If they don't pay then you would move to the right, you've got four weeks now to pay or we'll have a little quick pre trial about whether or not you're paying.

Wow, that's amazing.

I mean it's, I mean that's amazing.

Is it expensive to do that?

No, it's not because it's so difficult as a small company to get paid, you know.

But why can the big companies take 60 days.

Yeah, they have the market power, right.

They negotiated.

If you want to, if you want to do the business with me, you will be paid in 90 days.

That's what they do.

Bastards.

I think that should be illegal globally.

That is fascinating.

Yeah.

Wow.

I'm just reeling from that at the moment in my head.

So, yeah, so you haven't paid in two weeks.

Pass them to the thing what you send us sort of, there's a sort of notification procedure to say you haven't paid, you've now got four weeks to pay or we will go to this.

And the pre trial means a judge is there or how does it, what happens?

It works more or less automatically.

There is a civil servant behind the scenes checking that, but there is no judge involved in the first place.

So if someone says, oh well, you know, I thought it was a bit expensive and I wasn't happy with your advice.

That sort of usual.

Only if you defeat defend yourself, then the judge will be involved.

So four weeks and then they have this little pre trial.

So you what, submit some papers to say this is what we did, this is the invoice, they haven't paid it, they can defend it and if they.

Defend the judge will kick in.

But then they always defend it.

No, they don't always defend it because.

Here you have the statutory demand, which is not, you know, if no one's ever heard of it.

You could look up statutory demand if anyone hasn't paid your invoices and if you have here you need a clear, clear acceptance of debt and that can be a casual email saying oh no, sorry, got the invoice, just can't pay right now.

They have accepted the debt, they just can't pay right now.

You can take that as a statutory demand proof, you fill in some paperwork and then they have similar time, 28 days or something I think it is.

And they either have to pay the invoice or submit their defense.

But if you've got something that says they accepted the invoice, then they might be struggle with it and then they're either then put into an insolvency procedure to say you're not able to pay your debts or they can sort of defend it.

Statutory demands can be effective, but only if you've got that piece of evidence that there's no debate.

And what's easy to do amongst our own services, professional services, is just to throw a lot of smoke around.

I wasn't happy with the advice.

They didn't do what I asked them to do.

They did things I didn't want them to do just throw all that crap around.

It makes the statutory demand more difficult because it was sort of pointless.

You do this statutory demand, but that's amongst our industry, some industries, you've had the goods.

It's much harder to argue.

We're in professional services.

What else about commercial culture would you say?

Well, direct communication, I would say.

So we like honest feedback.

We are quite direct.

It's sometimes misjudged as being impolite, but actually we have little tolerance for ambiguities because we want to get straight to the point.

We want to learn, we want to correct errors.

And error correction only works if you really iterate and you must know on what basis to iterate.

There is this sort of sustainability orientation in our business culture.

So we want to build trust, but we want to build trust through process and competence.

So not that much personality.

Maybe that is also the reason why small talk is not that important.

We sort of trust the system, not the person.

I mean, of course the persons have to be trustworthy as well, but they.

Show trustworthy through their actions.

Exactly.

You know, their competence, their actions.

Right.

Talk is cheap.

And of course we have to make sure that there are not too many cheaters, liars in the the system.

But as long as the system works, we trust it.

And that is how you, when you want to do business in Germany, you have to sort of master the system.

You have to know, have to find out how we tick, how the clock ticks.

And as long as you do that, you will be successful in business.

We, for example, have these long planning cycles.

We need long planning cycles in order to build confidence.

I mean, it's the agenda thing we talked about.

We, we do not like to settle for second best.

So we wanna avoid premature commitment.

We of course also wanna avoid mistakes.

There is this German angst, I think it's even an English term, this anxiety things.

So this sense of deceleration in other cultures, you just run into it and you might get yourself a bleeding nose or whatever.

We don't like that.

Is it a phrase or something?

Is it or.

You said it, you don't.

He got himself a bleeding nose.

Oh, yeah.

He got himself a bleeding nose.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, I see that exact analogy.

Okay.

Yeah, we don't like it.

I mean, we try to avoid that because something that is bleeding might eventually die.

So you want to stop the bleeding.

You'd rather take more time.

Only fools rush in, take more time, get it right.

But that's because you said you're Competitive, you want to be first, you want to win.

Yeah.

Okay, so to you, what do they call it, being first out the gate?

The leader advantage.

That's not as important as doing it well.

Doing it well.

So I think our system is not made for speed.

It might be a disadvantage these days or in the future and we might have to adapt.

But our system is not yet for speed.

It's for quality, it's for perfectionism.

It's so funny how it flows.

Your system represents the culture, just like our stars.

And so there's a sort of, there are actually some huge similarities between the Brits and the Germans that we can talk, talk about.

But you know, a difference is, yeah, we're rebellious, we don't like rules.

You guys like order, you like the rules, you want to do it properly, take your time, execute it, execute it.

Well, it's not all about speed, as you say.

It's a sort of, it's interesting.

You don't mind feedback too.

Does that mean you're better?

Just like at work, you're better at separating work from private time.

You're also better at separating feedback, business feedback from personal feedback.

It doesn't affect you so much.

You know, British people mix these things up.

They get very sensitive about.

You criticize something about work and they take it incredibly personally.

You know, you're saying I'm a bad person, which links also interesting when you said, I think you nailed it about British people do business on each other's personality.

The trust is between the person.

You know, it's all about that relationship.

Have we got this sort of bond where we can have a beer together, we trust each other.

We're not gonna let each other down.

We're gonna shake hands.

It's not based.

Actions are important underneath it, but we allow a lot of mess ups and failure.

If I believe that the person is trying to do the right thing so that all sort of flocks together.

Because we're looking at the personality, you're looking at the actions.

We're mixing up business and personal, they become the same thing.

Because we look at the personality, you separate them and you separate them in your home and your business life.

And then you need feedback for error correction.

Even the phrase you use is so fascinating because you know, British person would never talk about, I would like feedback for error correction.

You know, it sounds, you know, like the stereotypes we might do of Germans being sounding almost robotic.

It's like, oh, it's not, you know, a bit more emotional than that.

But actually you're absolutely right.

This is business, this is industry.

This is trying to do things, this is trying to get stuff done.

I need feedback to my business machine in order to correct the errors of it.

And that has got nothing to do with me.

You know, that is really interesting.

It's very deeply embedded.

We want to get it 100% right.

And in order to get it 100% right, you have to iterate, right?

And iterate not just means repeating, but doing it better the next time.

So when we take a thousand shots on the goal, each shot should be better and not the same.

And that is why we need honest feedback.

And that is why direct communication is appreciated, I would say.

I'm sure I've told you this story, Manfred.

I've probably even told it on this podcast.

But it always made me laugh.

It's one of the most amusing sort of, for me, German, British interactions.

My dear mother in lovely hotel we stay up in Freiburg.

You know, she was down in the basement talking to the reception and I was walking down the stairs and could just sort of hear her conversation.

And she was going, excuse me, I don't want to disturb, but sorry, could I have a moment?

And they were like, oh, no problem, madam.

So no, sorry, not if you're busy.

And they were like, like, sorry, madam.

And then she was like, look, I really don't want to get cause any problems, but I was wondering maybe I.

Maybe you don't, that's fine, but do you have a kettle?

But not now, not if you're busy.

I'm sorry, madam, I. I do not.

And I was sort of listening to this conversation come down.

You.

You.

I do not understand, madam.

You do not want my help?

No, you look very big.

I'm sorry I've disturbed you.

Forget about it, it's fine.

And then they were like.

And then she's like, but you know, at some point, if you get a chance, and I really don't cause you any trouble, but it wouldn't be bad if I could get a kettle.

And they were like.

And by the time I got to the bottom of the stairs, I was.

They were just like, I'm sorry, Ma, understand what you want me to do.

And I said, my mum wants a kettle and she wants it right now.

Oh, thanks very much.

No, but my mom is like, no, no, Bear, they call me Bear.

No, no, Bear.

No, no, no, I don't.

No, I'm sorry.

I'm really sorry.

And I was just like, mum, they don't understand what the you on about?

Just ask for a kettle.

Just Tell them.

And it was just this wonderful interaction that the more the German pushed for clarity, the more the British person backed away and apologized and made it more confused.

And you.

I was walking down those stairs.

I still think about it all the time.

I'm like, God, we are unclear.

I mean, we are so unclear.

I mean, what was she on about?

You know, I do.

I don't.

It's a hotel.

It's reception.

Disturb the woman, you know, that's what she's there for.

That's literally what she's being paid for anyway, you know, such a wonderful interaction that can sort of, you know, so easily go wrong.

And I think we struggle to be direct, and I think we have to push ourselves to just say, remember to yourself, separate the business and the personal.

Be direct and clear with your German counterpart.

He will appreciate it.

The German counterpart's gonna be trying to adjust back.

They're gonna know what we're like, you know, that we're faffy.

But the problem is that our form of communication is very unclear and requires a lot of skill of language and experience of how people talk here, to read between the lines.

So actually, yours is simple.

I want a kettle.

I need it now, now, very clear.

Know what I'm doing now?

No problem.

Let me get it for you.

But ours is so wrapped up in stuff.

I don't.

I. I think it is more on the Brits, I'm trying to say, to adjust themselves, to be clear.

British people expect other cultures to understand this really subtle in between the line crap.

I mean, it's not possible.

I mean, you must struggle with it sometimes.

Do you.

When you say, let's do that later or let's talk about that later, that actually means I don't want it.

I don't want to talk about it.

Yeah, we would take it literally.

Let's schedule it.

Because you said, we'll do it later, talk about it later.

I would wait until it comes.

So, you know, that's quite a cultural.

Gap, I would say the other one I heard was brilliant.

It's all those sort of things that we will say to someone if they've got.

You know, they say, oh, I'm having a party.

You know, we say, yeah, I might pop by.

Which means I'm not coming.

You know, it's like.

It's like.

It's like, I might pop by.

I'm being polite.

I know when you feel let down, I love the idea of coming by, but no, I'm not.

You know, there's so much of it.

Anyway, we Are we are odd people?

Yeah.

I mean, but why?

Why it exists?

We're very worried about upsetting and loss of face.

And I think there is this mix of, I think, business and personal.

One thing, you know, I always think in America when they say, it's not business, it ain't personal.

This is business, or whatever that line is in every film.

I just think it doesn apply in Britain.

I just don't think that's how we think about it.

I think to us it is the same.

We have to be, you know, therefore, because it is personal, we have to create lots of ways of not being too direct and not embarrassing someone, not making them feel bad and all these sorts of things.

We don't separate it like you do.

We just, for whatever reason, that's how our system works.

You know, maybe you enjoy it more.

I mean, you mix it more, right?

The private, the business, the fun part.

Look at those jokes.

Yeah, look at the jokes.

There is no point at a meeting where a joke isn't okay.

One of my favorite things that happens in Britain is we'll be having a meeting and then suddenly someone will accidentally make a sexual innuendo.

Like, you know, yeah, well, she had to stick it in the back.

And that's it.

The rest of the meeting, we're just like chuckling about this concept that they said this thing.

We've ruined the meeting.

We're coming up with every possible way to get that sentence back in the meeting.

Oh, I remember what happened, Pack.

Someone was talking about someone's salary package in one of our meetings not long ago and said, well, he's got a pretty big package.

That was it.

The whole of the fucking meeting just kept coming back to this joke.

And you're right, it relaxes us.

We really enjoy that.

Sort of like, let's not take life too seriously.

Life seems very serious.

We could learn from that.

I mean, the most common regret.

I do a lot of succession.

So successful entrepreneurs who want to hand over or whatever, most common regrets is they say, I would have done everything the same, but I would have enjoyed it more, had more fun.

I should have enjoyed the journey more.

You know, I was always looking at the outcome, but I should have looked at the journey.

We have this saying, so the journey is the reward, or whatever.

And one guy once told me, there is even no reward.

The journey is all there is.

The journey is 99%, and I should have enjoyed it more.

And you do that and we miss it out sometimes.

It's a really interesting point that you are so successful As a nation.

So incredible building, you know, these incredible motor vehicles and you know, I mean don't buy a British car, we've got a bit better because other, other countries help us run our car industry.

But we were famous for making these beautiful cars that broke down all the time, you know, I mean, but you're right, there's a risk that for Germans it's a really, you know, really deep thing.

You're saying that you take life a too seriously, you know, but you are pretty successful for it, you know what I mean?

It's, you know, it's.

It enables you to do some incredible stuff.

Anyway, what an interesting comment.

And is it hierarchical in Germany?

Is it, is it flat?

It still is hierarchical, I would say at least in the German Mittelstand.

Mittelstand, it's small and medium sized enterprises amounting to I would say 90% of the enterprises in Germany and probably 50% or so of the turnover.

And the Mittelstand, the German word is a sort of well being in the middle, you know, that is what it should say actually.

There are hidden champions, there are world champions among the Mittelstand enterprises and they are quite traditional and the decision making would be top down with be risk averse.

Again there are slow changes underway, I would say, especially in R and D in startups.

But the structural change in our country is sort of evolutionary but not revolutionary.

So it's really slow and selective.

We have this.

I don't know if you know that saying.

Laptop und lehrhosen.

Do you know words?

Well, I know what both are.

Lederhose.

I've got a pair in my cupboard.

I was made to wear one years ago.

I've got proper, the leader hose and the short ones.

The shorts.

The shorts with the thing over the shoulder.

Bloody comfortable are they?

Yeah, I can tell you having worn one for a weekend.

There's a long story behind that.

But anyway, would like to see a.

Picture a laptop and lederhosen.

Yeah.

And.

And I had them as a child.

I hated them.

You couldn't, couldn't go down a slide with the leader horse.

Oh yeah, it's sort of quite.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the leather and it, it and that is a picture for being traditional and changing the same time but as I said, evolutionary slowly.

So it's a Bavarian slogan but gives you a picture of what structural change is about in Germany.

And the structure was hierarchical.

Used to be hierarchical and I would say still is hierarchical.

It's again slow to change.

We only change if innovation demands it.

I Would say family businesses, very common or not so common?

Very common.

I mean all Mittelstand firms, most Mittelstand firms are family owned family businesses.

We do not have this private equity or venture capital market industry market as you have it in the UK or in the US we do not have that many IPOs.

So it's all family owned.

Yeah, we don't have many here anymore, unfortunately.

But that's a topic for another day.

And you obviously you're a federal country.

I mean, you know, I remember chatting about this not long ago, sort of understanding that, you know, the UK is just, you know, got this dominant city of London which is so much larger than the other cities.

But Germany is a country of many cities.

It is, it is a federal city, a federal country.

You do not have to be in the capital city, you do not have to in Berlin, although it's good for startups and affordable tech talent as well.

But there are other regions, there are more or less like five other cities, south, north, west, east and in the middle, so south there is Munich, the laptop and lederhosen.

So there is a lot of fintech, there is a lot of physics startups, tech in general, highly qualified personnel, but very expensive.

Quality of living is quite high.

You have the, you have Italy, you have the Oktoberfest.

Then in the north there is Hamburg, logistics, maritime.

In the east there is Berlin, but also Leipzig, Trist, deep tech, chips, AI.

And in the west, where I'm coming from, it's Cologne with a lot of media, advertising, sociable people and Carnival.

Yeah, that's interesting.

And the culture, does it tend to be collaborative or individualistic?

Is it all about the leader and the sort of.

The poor Elon always gets referenced, doesn't he?

But you know, the Richard Branson and the sort of, you know, it's all about sort of the leader or it's very collaborative.

It is collaborative, I would say it's not individualistic.

As I said, we stick to structure, we stick to trust and so we form a sort of structured collaboration.

I mean it's a collaboration in terms of its role specific, it's task oriented, it's based on competence.

Rather than the maybe US model where it's rather informal, overly informal.

We would say it's also not the Nordic model where you have consensus just for its own sake.

It's about defining roles, defining boundaries.

It's goal driven and it's grounded on expertise and contributions from different experts.

So you need the right people, of course.

But it has to come in a structured way.

It Was interesting comparisons you made there.

The Americans seem very informal, I mean, certainly in how they dress and maybe talk.

But I find Americans actually very structured actually in terms of how they run their business.

Only because the businesses are often big, you know.

Well, by the time I meet them, they are looking internationally.

What do you see as the sort of differences and you, and meanwhile, you said the Nordics are consensus for consensus sake.

Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's a bit exaggerated.

Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

But the point I want to make is we do collaborate, but not for the sake of collaborating.

You feel that about your Nordic cousins, do you?

This sort of once you get into Sweden or whatever, that everyone's got to agree about minutiae, Is it.

Is that what we're sort of saying?

It's a feel.

I mean, I'm not too much.

No, no, I know, but it's always interesting.

These are all generalization.

So I mean, I'm sure no one will hold us up that we're saying this is, you know, I'm sure in Germany we could find a company that's run crazy, you know, with crazy people or whatever, you know, and no agendas.

Outrageous.

It's, it's just about, you know, you want, you want to attract people you want to work with, you want to attract virtuous people, you want to attract ethical people and you want to work with that kind of people.

You, you don't want to find yourself in sort of a shark pond or whatever.

So that is how you try to structure, to define the collaboration.

So it's also about these.

We have this Nordic values of working together in the right way and having consensus and stuff.

All these.

You want to have ethical and virtuous people around you, of course, but it's again more about the fact based thing, the German Sachlichkeit, you know, that is what we focus on, I would say the other things, I mean, we also like informal settings when we got to know each other, you know, when we are slowly getting to the.

From the formal SIE basis to the do basis, which is more common these days anyway.

We enjoy that as well.

But the starting point is a different one.

The starting point of collaboration is a share of duties rather than being informal with each other, having consensus or agreeing.

That is not the starting point.

Starting place, therefore, is that you, you have to understand what's trying to be achieved.

How'd you achieved it, what is the.

What is the plan?

Who is going to do what once all the pieces in place like a football Match or whatever.

Then, then the game begins and there can be more informality because we know what we're doing, you know, I mean, clearly it works given your incredible record, the World cup, much to the, you know, Britain's upset, although I hear Germany don't really care whether what Britain are doing in the World cup.

But we're always desperately concerned what Germany are doing, you know, you know, you've mentioned something a couple of times which is interesting is sustainability or ethics.

You know, this obviously forms part of, you know, the way you separate out personal and business, I guess because you, you, you separate out, if I may say, the humanity, the sort of human element and looked at it in a more, you know, more machine like way in terms of what needs to be done.

It feels like it's important for you to always put back on the agenda ethics or sustainability or you know, doing it for the right reasons, not just to make money.

Is that fair or.

Well, you want to create a win win situation and for that of course you need the right people.

I mean, if I go on a hunt with you, I want to trust you, that you show up on time, that you do your job, that I am safe and that you do not in the end take off all the food off the table first.

So no, it's also about personality.

It's just the emphas or the starting point is the sustained, structured, efficient way of doing it in business and private life and the virtues you should also have as a human being kick in a bit later maybe then in your society, in your surroundings.

Yeah, interesting.

In other words, the right way to do it should be the right way to do it for all, all aims, you know, doing it right for the people in the planet and everything.

And now a quick word from our sponsor.

Business without is brought to you by Ori Clark.

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Before we press on, just a quick reminder to come say hi on whatever social platform you like.

We're pretty much on all of them.

Just search for wblondon and the expectations from your employees, you know, do they have high expectations in terms of how much an employer needs to look after them, you know, what sort of benefits they need, you know, maternity, how does that work look?

Growing expectations, I would say.

We have this Social Security system, I would term it cradle to grave coverage, but it's not a coverage in terms of safe havens, but it's a social contract.

So it's quite expensive.

We pay for it, the employees pay for it and they expect something out of that.

They expect health insurance, they expect pension insurance and they expect that it works.

So the payroll costs are 40 plus percent on top of their salaries.

So 20% employers share to be paid into the Social Security system and 20% employees share to be paid into the Social Security system.

Both the employer and employee pay 20% into the system for pensions and healthcare.

And have free health care and unemployment and long term care.

Plus tax.

Plus tax.

What are the tax rates?

How high the tax rates are between 0 and 51.

52% when you're a high income earner.

So they expect something because they are paying a lot.

They expect something from the system, a health coverage and a pension coverage.

They expect from the employer.

Holiday days, 30 days as a standard.

I saw this.

So the stats.

So the legal requirement is 20 same as UK.

UK's edged up to 25 plus we have eight public holidays.

You expect 30 days plus 10 to 13 public holidays.

So you're at 40 to 43 days which is substantially higher than the UK.

Yeah, it's massive.

The working hours went down from 40 to 35.

Now it's slightly going up again.

So it depends between 30, 35 and.

40 hours and, and being, being, you know, that's something my dad has always taught me and how we know each other but is that, you know, in Germany they turn up on time, they work hard, they stop for lunch, they work hard but they're gone at five or six.

You stop, you don't sit there doing overtime till eight, nine o'.

Clock.

You know, the baby boomers did these days, the youngsters don't do it anymore.

I think they have a more healthier way of, of living and, and work life balance, it's a big wor.

Are struggling, we are struggling a bit with the health system, the pension system.

It seems that the contributions are not high enough to have a sustainable system.

This is common in so many countries.

In so many countries, what's the budget on someone's health?

The truth is if healthcare is free at the point of care, people want infinite healthcare.

They want so much of it.

Again, the employees, employees expect something more from the employer, some extra insurance say for health, for pension.

So to top this, the lack of legal insurance to top it up a bit.

So it's even more a burden, expectation burden at least on the employers these days.

And I noticed you wrote here, which I don't quite understand.

Maternity leave six weeks before and eight weeks after.

That's it.

Six weeks before, eight weeks after giving birth.

And then there is an extra parental leave, which is three years per child.

But what.

Yes, I get three years off.

You get three years off, but unpaid.

The first year is paid.

You get subsidies.

Depending on what you are earning.

The first year, you get 1,800amonth.

But that's it.

That's massive, though.

So I get a year, 1,800amonth plus euros.

The employer gets reimbursed for that.

It's again, it's a Social Security thing.

And I.

But I, I, as the mother of father either.

Yeah, you can share whatever.

But there's three years between you.

Yeah.

So I could take a. I could take three years off from my work to have a baby.

Do people do that?

You can have two babies, you have six years, People do it.

Yeah.

And they just disappear for six years.

Having three babies, I mean, it makes a lot of sense because I can see the logic, because once your child hits three, you've got, through the nappies and the breastfeeding you, the really difficult stage.

You know, I mean, we have that fertility problem, right?

I mean, people choose to not have children, and that is our Social Security, health and pension problem.

So we try to set a framework for.

To encourage people having children.

I mean, I remember a friend, that was 20 years ago, they had the first child and he worked for one of these big firms in Germany undergoing restructuring, and he finally had to leave.

And they decided, decided against a second child because of that, because of that uncertainty.

And at the same time, I remember having a neighbor, a guy in the neighborhood, he was a civil servant, so he felt secure.

He had two children, he felt ill for a year, he didn't go to work for a year and used the year to have a third child because he felt safe.

So I wouldn't say the one or the other was wrong or right, but it's a matter of the framework you have to set to encourage people to have children.

And that is what we try to do.

Maybe it's a bit too much, I don't know.

But we need more youngsters in the system.

It's become more generous then over the last.

Because the crisis in fertility, the crisis in people choosing not to have children and everything, that's a modern problem, really.

That started sort of.

I don't know when it started, 70s, 80s, but it's becoming more.

Yeah.

There's no developed country that doesn't have a declining birth rate.

But it's curious too.

It's not just people are choosing people's fertility is going down and down.

There are some explanations like people are able to have children that didn't weren't able before through IVF and everything.

And that's a wonderful thing.

But it means that people who are genetically less, less likely to be fertile, less likely to have the right attributes to be good at producing children are able now to produce children, producing more people who can't, who struggle to have children.

There's a sort of.

But that doesn't, still doesn't explain it.

I don't think anyone really understands it.

They don't, they don't know whether it's microplastics and they don't know what it is.

But for whatever reason there is that crisis.

And as you're saying, it becomes particularly astute if you haven't got the young people to pay the tax, to pay for the pensions.

Because it's sort of a Ponzi scheme, isn't it?

It is.

You need the money in the bottom to pay the people coming out the top.

And if the population is not growing problem, you know, what can you do?

I mean you can have immigration, but that often is difficult.

I mean it creates, might create a low trust society, might be responsible for the rise of protection.

We have them all over Europe.

We have it in Germany as well.

I think, well, I think Thatcher's probably a much more divided figure, but I think, you know, I just thought she was an incredible leader, to be honest.

I think, I think, I think, you know, you've just got to respect, respect what she did and stuff, you know, and I remember when she announced giving a million visas to Syria, wasn't it when she said right, we're going to allow a million people in.

I mean that was mind blowing and good on her and stuff.

And, and in England meanwhile, we were arguing about whether we're going to have 10,000.

I mean I was looking up these stats about we get so wound up in immigration here we take half the immigrants, half the refugees the rest of Europe is dealing with because we're an island, because we, you know, and we have the ability to do it.

But did it cause it's caused difficult strains, has it, this sort of level of immigration?

Because you've done some huge immigration you've taken in.

Yes, it still does and it's still for the, responsible for the rise of the right wing parties, of the protectionist parties.

And not sure if it is about numbers, if we should reduce the numbers, but in the first place we should bring rules in place that Protect the high trust benefits we have.

Not sure how to do it but there is this clash of cultures and we somehow have to prepare for that to preserve the trust in society we have.

Otherwise we will have the rise of these protectionist parties.

And that is I think no good.

For Europe quite defined German culture as we talk through it.

I mean it's order, you know, and it's quite particularly organized and you know, you think of what's like this, it's Japan, you know, and you can compare Japan and Germany, there's some, some, you know, deep overlaps.

There's some actually overlaps Japan and Britain because of the island nature but you know, there's not many countries in the world and oh, lo and behold, look, you know, you're two of the countries best at making really complicated machines.

Well, you know, funny that, you know, you're really good at sort of really focusing on those really big complicated problems but you know, you're incredibly ordered society.

I, I feel ours perhaps is a little more loose so it's a sort of bit easier to sort of fit in with the whole British thing because it's a bit more casual.

But I'm probably being naive about that.

But I, I, I can see for you, you know, for you to be able to explain to people how important, you know, you, you, how can I put it?

It's like it's, there's no good trying to have order if you've got a load of people causing chaos because it sort of breaks the system down, doesn't it?

It's like we all follow the rules or no one follows the rul.

Britain, we don't like following the rules anyway, so we're already breaking all the rules, you know.

So okay, you have the same problems as us all for pensions and obviously, and look, I mean this with great respect, you know, everybody wants more but you know, the systems can't really pay for the healthcare and pensions to really look after their peoples.

There's a bit of, a, bit of a crisis there, particularly with the wonderful printing of money.

But what, it's a slow moving disaster.

Maybe it's a slow moving disaster.

Maybe it will be self correcting over, over time.

Well, our good friend of the show Andrew Craig has taught me this.

But you know, I really understand that quantitative easing is having an enormous impact on us all and all these countries are doing it and that's the sort of, that's, that is almost the bigger problem than anything.

You know, we become poorer because we keep printing money to pay our, our bonds that we've issued to get the money to fund our company in a country.

And it's this, it's, you know, it's an, it's an issue, everyone.

You would expect it not to be in Germany.

I mean, I remember chatting to you five, six years ago over some.

Something and saying, God, you pay a lot of Social Security.

What's the health care like?

And you said, it's excellent.

And then only recently when I saw you said, no, it's actually, we're not doing so well.

It's struggling the healthcare system, you know.

Anyway, problems of our time.

What language or cultural cues that people from outside Germany miss or confuse.

Most often direct feedback meant as respect for truth and time is misread as rudeness.

Sometimes the rule following society is misread as rigidity.

Yeah, it's meant as reliability.

You know what to expect.

Yeah, okay.

And there is, of course, our reserved social style often meant misread as disinterest.

But it's not disinterest, it's liar.

It's sort of boundary setting, privacy protection protection, something like that.

Privacy protection over your personal life is your personal life.

You're here to do business today, not get on the table how you're going through a divorce or you've got this problem or that problem, that's your business, you know.

Yesterday I had to.

I had a telephone conversation.

It was a very short one.

I needed a flat for one of my kids in one of the big cities where it's hard to get flats.

And I got a hint from a colleague there to call someone up.

I called him up, the connection was disconnected and I called him again and said, well, I'm in Italy and I wanted to ease in, like, oh, Italy, how is the weather?

And blah, blah, blah.

And he said, what's up?

Just said, what's up?

I said, well.

And he knew what I was calling for.

I said, well, I need a flat for my daughter.

Okay, give me your background, give me your personal details.

I gave a minute of background and.

And then he said, okay, I will send out the contract tomorrow.

When you get it, you have the flat.

If you don't get anything, someone else has got it.

Full stop.

Full stop.

You said goodbye.

Yeah, but this morning I got the contract.

So it wasn't about.

He disliked me.

It was just about efficiency.

Efficiency and privacy.

And I don't know him.

So he didn't want to talk with me about the weather in Italy.

I have to respect that.

Well, as someone who apparently suffers from adhd, I like the directness.

And I have a problem in the UK that people find me too direct that I just want to skip to the problem, you know, and I actually find small talk.

So actually there's an interesting thing in here because for all those entrepreneurs out there who 95% of them seem to have ADHD, as far as I can work out, you probably work quite well with Germany and you can do business with them and you can ring them up and you don't have to have all that small talk bollocks.

You can just ring them up and say, I want this, I want it.

Then, you know, do you say, do you use the please and the thank yous and the, you know, is that important?

Not really.

We do and we are taught to say bitter on danke, of course, but it's not, I don't know, not in our genes is, is wrong.

But when I, when I, when I do an email, I first do the subject matter and then I think, okay, I should do a first introductory sentence, you know, because it's not really what we are focused at.

But of course we are taught to say thank you.

And there's a wonderful thing, I mean, there's many conversations going on about AI, but it has struck me that the one good thing about AI is it's going to make us all get on with each other better internationally.

Because I don't know if you're doing this, but I'm doing this a lot, you know, particularly if it was someone I didn't know in Germany.

I write my email as I would to a British person.

I just give it to AI and say, rewrite, rewrite this and write it in a way that the Germans would appreciate.

And, and you can even say to put it in German and show me what it would read, what's the translation in English, you know, and you're like, great, I'll send that.

And then the Germans, like, this is excellent, it's very good.

And then if they follow the same process, and even if they don't, I could reverse engineer and get their email and go, blimey, feed that in and give me the British version.

I'm so sorry to disturb you, blah, blah, blah.

But there's an up.

There's a real upside here in trade because I think the cultural gaps that we're talking about, about, you know, in person, they're going to be more important.

But I think in the written form, we're going to be able to bridge a lot of these gaps that have been huge problems for us.

You know, great Actually I don't think the Germans and the Britons are too bad.

I actually think in business we, because ultimately we, we're quite business focused.

We're very practical.

You guys are very practical.

We both actually contribute to popular opinion.

Germans have an enormous sense of opinion.

In fact scientifically proven to have, have the biggest range and sense of humor by Richard Wiseman.

Did an amazing study on lots of cultures looking about how many things they find funny.

It was certainly true that people do revere the British and the Irish for their love and sense of humor.

We have a very developed sort of culture of that.

But it was the Germans who found the most things funny.

The Germans everything was hilarious.

They were like nine out of 10 jokes, they were like oh that's a belter.

But anyway, really fascinating input but you know, do not think the Germans have a sense of humor scientifically proven the biggest sense of humor of any country in the world.

And I, I can attest to that from the dear time I've had, you know, hanging out with my German colleagues.

But I think actually we, we, we get on very well with that.

I think the order, I think it's just the order bits we struggle with.

We just want to slightly fight by the.

It's.

How did my dear, my father in law British do everything?

By trial and error.

We're just, our approach is always trial and error.

Get it going, see what happens.

Let's have a look.

Not plan, think about it, do it properly.

You know there's that great example when we invented the, the, the turbo.

So we invented the, the turbo on the car.

Actually I looked this up and I'm not actually sure the British invented it but we went to the, we were the one.

We're actually nailing it.

But then the bloody thing broke because we hadn't engineered it enough and the Germans went oh, this is very good.

So they had a look at the turbo next year they turn up with a Mercedes with a turbo that worked for the whole, whole race and beat us all.

And I just think that sort of summarizes Britain come up with a crazy idea, get it going, brilliant.

Slam a turbo on it.

Brilliant.

Down the pub, few jars.

This is great.

But haven't trial and error.

Maybe we have to adapt to that.

I mean these days it's probably easier to bring something to the market that is 70% perfect and then just perfectionize.

It by trial and error than trying to have it 100% correct.

Because then you're just too slow these days.

I think the Germans and the Brits need to need each other and we should collaborate more.

I think we're perfect partners to say we'll invent.

You invent too very well.

But, you know, throw if a bit like when the.

The Brits and the French get together and they managed to build Concorde because they're so like.

So like trying to outdo each other.

I think the Germans and the Brits have a very natural collaboration of sort of the stuff we find easier.

The stuff you find easier.

That, you know, maybe that's the way.

Maybe there's something in what we're talking about here.

Maybe if you want to.

To build a really successful business, get a business that has a British culture of innovation and getting things going, and then a German sensibility of absolutely nailing the execution behind it.

You know, I think there's something in that.

Well, I, you know, through all of this journey of Brexit and everything, you know, I still remember sitting in the little Japanese in Slough, us chatting.

But, you know, I think, I think the funny effect of Brexit is certainly on a professional level, and I think on some other levels, it's made us.

Had to come closer together.

Interestingly, I think I. I think the distance that Brexit unfortunately creates means that we can't be complacent about it.

We can't take it for granted that we're all just in one thing and we're working together, and that's fine.

We actually have to really make an effort to understand each other again and to find ways to collaborate together because there's this friction, but because there's also this value in us collaborating.

And Starmer and Merz, they had their meeting and they did it.

There's this friendship agreement again.

Oh, great.

Because of all the countries that are annoyed with us, I think France is pretty annoyed with us.

But Germans are really upset about Brexit.

I understand.

They were.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember you saying, can we still be friends?

And I said, yes, okay.

But since July, we have it again.

And German students will start coming over again.

And there are some other.

You think that will help then?

That political thing of, oh, we're friends again, you know?

You think?

Definitely.

I mean, we build it up from the youth, right?

From the youngsters.

Yeah, I guess it's a bit like when they make an apology for something that happened 50 years ago.

And I sometimes think Say it's a bit late.

It's just an apology.

I mean, if I apologize to my girlfriend or wife 10 years after I cocked up, she'd just be like kidding me.

But.

So come on then, ease of doing business in Germany.

We would probably think it's quite difficult to do business in journey.

But you tell us, what's the best thing about, you know, doing business with the Germans?

They're doing what they say they, they have an obsessive attention for detail which might help in doing business.

They are fact based.

The German.

Oh, is that what that word is?

That means based on facts.

Fact based.

Yeah, you could also translate it objectivity.

I don't know.

Long term orientation.

Sustainability.

As I said, we take pride in quality, not else.

So we are not that proud as a people people for historic reasons, but we take pride in quality.

What an interesting comment.

Yeah, there's, there's too much pride in this country.

It's a real terribly arrogant.

We, we try to pretend to be humble.

We're terribly arrogant.

But of course your, your history is less due to a place that you don't feel proud about yourself.

But therefore you can find pride in, in quality and doing things right and being reliable and being a good partner.

That's fascinating.

Yeah.

It's not the purpose of person, it's the thing.

And I think this pride in quality also leads to another aspect for many of my fellow countrymen, my colleagues.

I think of course we are all sort of money driven, but money is more byproduct.

So if the outcome is okay for us, the money isn't that important.

I think that is also a good thing.

You're not that financially driven then?

I would not say so.

I mean, it's.

It depends of course, but in general I would say we want to do a good job, we want to do good work.

And of course money has to be there because money solves your money problems.

But we are not money driven in that sense.

Normal step by its nature is not ego driven.

You know, there's an aspect of which power, status, money.

This is all ego stuff, you know, and actually your collaboratory, you collaborate, collaborate.

It's about doing something really well.

You, you have this aspect which again then makes sense that you think about sustainability.

I believe Germany is, you know, the most environmentally conscious and sustainable country, if not in the world, certainly one of them.

And that would again fit into this.

Not about ego and status.

It's about sort of doing something well for the right reasons, in an ordered way.

These are really nice qualities.

Manfred These are really, you know, amazing things, you know, trying to sell us.

In a good way.

I think there's.

The reliability of Germany is, you know, something.

Take the wonderful example of Mercedes.

I mean, all around the world for such a long time, people have been able to drive vehicles that are just bulletproof, so reliable, you know, why did my dad drive Mercedes all the time?

I remember telling me the story about that.

You know, he had British car and British car and then his car broke down again and.

And he had to borrow a car or something and he borrowed a Mercedes and he was just like, this thing doesn't break down, this thing.

And for him, as someone who's a very.

I want to get stuff done.

He was like, well, that's it, that's the solution.

Great.

All the things, I mean, all the things.

Biggest hurdle to overcome, you know, of.

Doing business well, again, the risk aversion in Germany, it's there.

The bureaucracy that comes with the risk aversion.

I, I mean, everything we want to do in certain predefined steps and that brings a great deal of bureaucracy and I would say a sort of a delayed trust formation because we do not trust in the people, we trust in the system, as I said.

So as long as you do not fit in the system, we do not trust you.

Maybe that are the biggest hurdles.

Wow, that's an interesting comment given what we were commenting on.

Sort of people coming from other cultures.

Cultures and stuff and trying to integrate them into the system.

And how is it to trade, to sell in Germany?

Well, you have bureaucracy.

You first have to register.

You know that better than me for a VAT number for an eori.

And then you should observe the market.

The Germans about are sort of choosy about their desires, I would say.

So you, you cannot.

We have that saying.

You can.

Some people can sell a fridge to an Eskimo, but you can't enjoy Germany.

And lederhosen made in China wouldn't work either.

I remember one time I brought this coffee machine from the Netherlands.

I was so fascinated by that coffee machine.

It didn't exist at that time in Germany.

Four weeks later, the German market was flooded with that kind of coffee machines.

I had to carry it in the train and it was quite an effort.

And I learned if you want to test a product for Germany, test it in the Dutch market.

So it's faster, moving, it's smaller and it's quite similar.

It's quite similar in terms of the.

Taste of desire, you know.

So when trade with Germany from outside, maybe first Test it in Holland.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I forget how closely the Dutch and the Germans are.

In a way there's a lot of.

Actually when you say that there is a lot of that in the Dutch, isn't there sort of order and stuff?

There's as well.

Getting bank accounts is that easy, difficult.

It's a lengthy process, but doable and.

You know, setting up companies, you know, these sorts of things.

You need a notary.

It's a bit formally burdensome, but it's a.

It's a well defined, well structured way to do it.

It takes time.

The bank account takes you a month, the company takes you maybe a month.

And there's the GmbH, the bigger company with what, €30,000 capital?

Yes, €25,000.

The GmbH.

And then we have the U G mini GmbH.

Mini GmbH.

Comparable to A limited.

So it's less capital, but I mean it's the same set of steps to set it up.

What would you advise to a company?

Would you generally say get a proper GmbH?

I would generally say get a GmbH.

Because with the UG it's again the trust issue.

With the UG you are saying to the market that you either do not have the €25,000 or do not want to spend the €25,000 on the business, which is easily being interpreted as you don't trust your own business.

Is it almost designed for small company, for small sole traders, like I'm a work at home, whatever.

Yeah.

When you do need capital at all, I mean, when you are just rendering services or you know, running a travel agency, whatever, where you, where you do not need capital there you can use a ug but it is trusted less.

And we touched a little bit on this, you know, do you need to be in the capital city, the regions of the city?

You said there's the north, the south, the west, the east and the middle, effectively.

So in the east we've got Berlin, which is very techy and funky and cool.

Yeah.

In the south you mentioned we've got Munich, which is a sort of financial center.

Yeah.

You're over in the west, which is that sort of almost the biggest area, isn't it?

It, it is with the Ruapot area, a very dense area.

A lot of people in reach.

If you set up in.

In Cologne, in Dusseldorf, you have 5 million people within reach.

I mean, in global terms you would consider it one city.

Because all these cities are so close, Essen, Dortmund to each other.

There's no gap, basically.

There is no gap, basically.

No, you get more subsidies.

There than in other areas of Germany.

So it's, it's advisable to go there because you have many people in reach, you have a lot of state subsidies.

The thing is, people do not want to live there.

So young talent you rather find in Berlin, you find in Munich, in Hamburg, in Frankfurt.

I forgot Frankfurt, by the way, when we talked about it before.

Frankfurt in the middle is the banking and finance.

Banking and finance.

So Munich sort of money but Frankfurt's the banking.

And then in the north you've got sort of house.

Hamburg.

Yeah, it's logistics and, and I always forget.

And then you've got Denmark.

You've got Denmark.

You know, you sort of take up, you sort of this little slice, you know, above you effectively.

Yeah, yeah.

How interesting.

I mean you, you, you assume you have a good relationship with all these countries, but it's interesting that the Netherlands is an interesting test market for you.

So in a way, if you wanted to get a product into Germany, follow the same theory, go to the Netherlands, get your product.

You know, again there's a, there's a closer, you know, Britons and the Dutch that's almost relationship just geographically and sort of smaller market.

And it's a bit speedier, it's a bit more, it's a bit, it's got some of the British stuff.

I think about being a bit more, sort of less, slightly less rule based or slightly less formal.

So maybe it would make a lot of sense.

You get your product into, into Holland, if it's working, move it out into Germany and you'd be fine.

Yeah, I would say the Dutch are not quite German and not quite British.

They are somehow in between.

Yeah, yeah.

For what I understand, I agree.

And the government grants, taxes, other incentives that people should know about.

There are government grants, but that is quite diversified region by region.

You get more in the east, you get more in the Ruapot area.

You can cover 30 to 70% of startup costs in the first year's wage costs if you are lucky, if you are in the right region.

But those are mostly regions where you do not find sufficient efficient talent, especially not when you come from abroad.

Is there any very common mistakes you would say to someone about coming to Germany to do business for the first time?

Underestimating cash usage.

It's one of them.

Germans love the cash, the €500.

No, still do.

Still do.

What's that about?

Why?

Staying in control.

Staying in control.

Spending less.

But Anna, anonymity, personal life, you don't want people to know what you're up to.

Maybe because you don't talk much about money in Germany anyway.

So that is no small talk topic.

In Germany, what I've discovered, it turns out, and I had a hunch like this.

I think America is the only place that can talk about money.

I mean, I was, you know, not surprised, but sort of expecting.

But you know, Spain, Italy, France, nobody likes talking about money.

It's rude across Europe basically to start talking about money.

It's only our American customers who come in and say, what's your salary?

To us, that's just like so big message to the economy.

Americans out there don't talk about money in Europe.

We don't like it.

It's not, it's rude.

It's not, it's not, It's.

I think I.

We don't like the idea almost that it's what it's all about.

It's almost like we want to pretend that's not true.

Yeah, the cash thing, misunderstanding, the directness, we had that before.

That is also a common mistake.

Being late.

You shouldn't be late.

Sorry.

Well, can happen.

Not registering your residence after 14 days, you should do that.

Otherwise you got to register your resident.

And you have to have a health insurance, travel, you have to tell the.

Taxman that you're there.

You have to tell the municipality that you are there.

I mean, if you come as a tourist, travel insurance is enough.

But if you want to live in Germany, you need a proper health insurance.

You would need a visa.

But for the European people, obviously they could turn up to live, then they need to let people know within 14 days.

If they don't, there's a fine or something.

Is there?

Yeah, well, there is no fine, fine.

But you run in all sorts of troubles if you are not registered.

Okay, get registered people.

Yeah.

And the visa situation, can you get visas?

You can.

It's a bureaucratic thing, but a structured process.

There are visas for entrepreneurs, for business founders.

There is a blue card for the eu, startup visas, freelance visas, self employment visas, all sorts of visas.

Important thing if you want to get one, have a proper business plan and have a proper health insurance again.

Okay, okay.

You need proper health insurance.

You mean literally state insurance?

So you can pick one of these state insurance companies and being insured with them.

So be part of the social system, pay into the distributing.

Yes.

And then apply for a visa.

Oh, how interesting.

So you've got to kind of register with the state that you want to live in, start paying Social Security and then, and then have a business plan and then you can start talking to them about having a visa, it's almost in reverse.

You know, is it easy to buy property in Germany?

Do people, do people own property?

And, you know, it's easy to buy a home or.

I'm always surprised that people do not own property a lot.

When I see statistics, it's like 50%.

We won one of the lowest countries in the OECD.

But people love their houses and love to have property.

Property, it is expensive.

You need 20 to 40% equity in order to finance real estate.

And if you do it for business, it may restrict your operational scaling because you might grow out of it.

So I would always recommend for business, rent premises out.

For personal property, it's a lifestyle decision.

I mean, it's a matter of your planning horizon.

How long do you want to stay?

If you want to stay for less than 10 years, I wouldn't buy anyway.

If your business is property, of course, you might want to have property if you want to start some wealth creation.

Of course, property might be one part of that.

But in general, I would say, as a foreigner coming starting up in Germany, I would first rent out.

And the rents are comparatively affordable in Germany, I would say.

Well, I can vouch for Cologne as being, you know, this being a beautiful part of the world.

I mean, really, really beautiful part of the world.

Yeah, I mean, there's many nice things to say.

I think people really underestimate what a nice place Germany is, to be honest, you know, and, and I would recommend anyone, you know, to go on holiday there or check it out.

Brilliant.

I mean, Manfred, you've been absolutely fantastic.

I think we might be.

Is there anything else you had to add?

We were going to just have a little, a little game and I don't know if you bought any object you feel that represents German.

Ah, almost forgot.

It's a local thing.

It's a Cologne thing that I brought for you.

Ooh.

I, I oh, you've done well, then.

Told you about carnival, right?

Yes.

So this is a red nose you are supposed to put on.

Ah, thank you.

And this is.

This is for carnival.

That is for carnival.

And that is a sort of a.

How do you call it?

A fool's hat.

Fool's hat.

Okay.

I deserve one of those.

I'm sure that's why I brought it.

I was supposed to say the opposite now, Right?

Yeah, yeah.

And a medal you get.

And a medal you get.

And what, you then go into the street like this?

Yeah.

Look at that.

That's brilliant, that is.

I'm going to treasure this.

In fact, I imagine my wife probably thinks that I should wear this all the time.

She'll be like, well, I think that pretty much sums you up.

Oh, I love the medal.

So the medals, just to feel like important, like bullshit important sort of thing, you know.

We made a bullshit fool out of you.

Now that is beautiful.

It's actually really.

Of course it is.

It's actually really nice.

What's the S for?

That is for Senate.

It represents sort of of a carnival, boss.

Okay, well, I feel in this gown I will do the questions.

So we're going to just play a little game, mate.

So we're just going to take a paddle.

So this paddle on one side says business and one says, okay, I'm going to name some things and you need to tell me whether you think they are business or.

Yeah, okay, we can discuss.

Take it from a German perspective, I'm sure.

Have I lost all credibility with this?

Look, did I have any credibility to start with?

I'm not sure I did, to be fair.

Okay, we begin equal paternity.

Leave the.

I think we said you had this, the, the idea that men and women should get equal business.

Is that the way it is at the moment?

That's the way it is.

You should choose your share.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's German.

Makes sense.

Let's be ordered personal pronouns.

This is, this sort of thing.

I don't know if it kicked.

Did it kick off in Germany?

I'm he, I'm, she, I'm they, you know, so you put in brackets, you know, before or after your name, that I'm Andy Uri and I prefer.

What is it?

He, he, him or something, you know.

Yeah, I know, I know you know.

What I'm talking about.

Did it, did it happen in Germany?

Did people.

I would say business.

Two years ago I would have said bullshit.

But I've meanwhile, I've met so many who changed that I would say, yeah, it was necessary in a way.

Yeah.

Okay.

Personality type?

Type tests.

You aware of these?

Where you take a test, it tells me about your personality.

So there's things called Miles Briggs.

Don't know them, never heard of them.

Brilliant.

Get rid of that.

I know the red, green, yellow, blue thing, but that is old fashioned, right?

Yeah, yeah.

What do you think of that?

Any thoughts?

I think it's old fashioned.

I think it's old fashioned.

Brilliant.

What do you think about right wing?

Right wing.

Oh, really?

And what do you think about left wing?

Same thing.