We're back on the Big Island for the IRONMAN World Championships!

Today, Feisty CEO Sara Gross and co-host Carrie Barrett dig into Woven, IRONMAN’s new multi-year initiative to get more women to the start line — and keep them there.

We hear from Ironman’s Managing Director of North America and Senior Vice President of World Championship Events, Diana Bertsch, and Woven expert ambassador Dr. Erin Ayala, about what it actually is, the short and long term goals of this initiative, and why a little healthy skepticism is very much warranted.

A few takeaways:

• Women make up just 27% of the field in Kona this year. So yeah…there’s room to grow.
• Woven says it’s playing the long game: test, learn, fix what doesn’t work, and scale what does.
• This has to be about more than tampons in porta-potties. Think childcare, cost, flexibility, race-day support, access, and real inclusion.
• Ironman can’t fix the patriarchy. But it can stop adding to the barriers.

Look, we’re spicy optimists over here. We want Woven to work. But - we’re also going to keep asking the hard questions. That's how Feisty started, after all.

Thanks to our sponsors:

Hettas.com use code: stayfeisty for 20% off at https://hettas.com/

Orca.com: Use the code FEISTY15 for 15% off at https://orca.avln.me/c/HzUkzIfxsmYo

Wahoo: Use the code FEISTY2026 to get a free Headwind Smart Fan (value $300) with the purchase of a Wahoo KICKR RUN at https://shorturl.at/WVhdr

Train with Feisty this Winter! https://livefeisty.com/training/feisty-winter-training/

Foreign.

Feisty triathletes.

Aloha from the big island of Hawaii. We are here in Kailua, Kona. Yay for the Ironman World Championships.

And I am Sarah Gross, and I am here with my lovely co host, Carrie Barrett.

Who is that?

Who is that? Carrie has been around our feisty verse for over six years.

Yeah.

I first came to Feisty Media, Sarah, when I heard you on another podcast way back in 2019, and you happened to mention that you were hiring writers and editors, and I was. I jumped at the chance because I do both of those. And yet I started editing Hit Play, Not Pause, our sister podcast right away.

I wrote a few blogs, and I have been in the Feisty media ecosystem. I think I've touched every project that we've ever done.

Oh, wow.

Since 2019.

Yes.

And.

And Carrie, we talked before the show, but I'm actually just remembering we were hiring an intern.

Oh, my gosh.

I remember interviewing you and saying. Saying to Ella after. She's way overqualified, and so. But I. I actually was. Wanted to kind of keep you around.

So we're like, well, let's just bring her on as an occasional writer and see what happens.

And.

And now you're basically managing all of our production, managing all of our podcasts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I was a big feisty fan.

I was a. I truly was one of those people that would see the ads in Triathlete magazine for the outspoken summit and always dreamed of being able to go and just never could make it. As a coach and as an athlete, I really wanted to be a part of that outspoken slash feisty movement. And now I am, and have been for over six years.

It's funny to me because even today when we're down, you know, we were. We set up our booth down at Kona Canoe X. Kona Canoe Club Now Voyagers. And we.

Whenever I'm here in Kona, I meet, quote, unquote, feisty fans, and every single time, I still have that same response,.

Like, oh, people follow us.

Like, it's. It's still.

Still a kind of surprise. Or. I'm still delighted by that. You know, I don't think. Oh, of course there's people who follow us.

Oh, yeah. No, you got stopped multiple times on the street, and we both did because of the shirts that we're wearing.

The Here for the women's race shirts. Yeah.

Which people are buying. Buy the suitcase loads.

Thank goodness.

Because neither one of us want to take any of them back with us.

Yes.

Our goal is to get rid of all the here for the women's race shirts. So. So if you are in Kona, come see us. We're there Monday to Friday from 8 to 11am yes, yes, yes.

But just let it be known too that I am a triathlon fan as well. I have been racing triathlons for almost 25 years.

Yeah, I wanted to give you the cred. You're seven time Iron man, right? Yes, yes. And also Carrie is a radio DJ and a standup comic. So. So she is well placed to be my co host here in Kona.

Yes.

But you were also saying today earlier that what I find is amazing and I think what kind of stopped you in your tracks too was that you realize that you have covered media for the Ironman World Championships, almost double the amount of years that you raced here as a pro. So you've raced here six times as a pro.

Yes, and sometimes I'm still surprised by that number because I don't even know that I fully remember all of those years. But the. So I've been coming here since 2020. No, 2020. Oh my goodness, 2003. No, 2004 was the first year I came here as a pro and raised.

But then, yeah, I, I've actually done media here at the world champs 11 times, which is wild to me. Like I couldn't, I knew I had come here 20 times but I couldn't figure out what all the years were and turns out most of them were media.

So before, before I started feisty, I worked a little with Steph from what's up? For any listeners who remember Steph and the amazing job she did with that, I did some writing.

I remember interviewing Lucy Charles the year she raced as an age grouper. And Steph said to me, oh, there's this. It was probably like we were doing today looking through the stories that Iron man sends out.

You know, when we had this almost Olympian, this open water swimmer, you know, who was young, up and coming and she was not a pro, as I said, she was racing age group and she was of course lovely.

Yes.

So I feel like I get, oh, I'm giving myself kudos for being one of the first people who interviewed Lucy Charles.

That is amazing.

And that just shows you, I think the, just the color of this sport and the history and the fact that feisty media is a part of that history and gets to help write the stories of athletes that are racing today and tomorrow and 10 years from now. And it's something that I promise you I do not take for granted when you Asked me to come to be your co host this week. Not once.

Well, okay, maybe a little. I was like, yay, I get to go to Kona. It's a vacation.

But for the most part we are working our tails off, which started today when we were at our booth at voyagers.

Yes.

From 8 to 11 and we had some amazing people stop by to buy.

The merch and we had Renee Norona come by the, by the booth. And she is a 20 year old Indian woman who is doing an Ironman in every continent for six continents.

And so actually she's doubling up on North America because she did Iron Man Canada and she had qualified for Kona so she had to come here. Of course.

Yes.

And then in just a few weeks time, she's going to be going to South America to complete her quest of becoming the youngest person to race an Ironman on the six continents that actually have an Ironman. Antarctica as of yet does not have an Iron Man. Who knows what's going to happen?

But she was lovely and we will have her on the podcast in a couple of days. So, so grateful for her. We had people from England come by. We had South Africa come by. We had of course plenty of Americans come by.

So it's always great to see that.

Yeah.

I mean the global impact of this race is pretty spectacular.

Yes.

And Carrie, you talked about history a little bit and I was actually, you know, I'm very excited to have Karen Smyers who's being inducted into the Ironman hall of Fame on Wednesday night.

She is coming on our live podcast recording also at voyager's restaurant at 9am on Wednesday with Dee Grease Bower who was, who raced, who raced around the same time that I did and who Karen mentored. I know that they're really great friends. But anyway, the podcast recording is called party like it's 1995.

So we're going to definitely be taking a walk down memory lane.

Oh yeah. And that. And, and we want to thank Rudy Project for that, for putting on this brunch, this celebration.

And again, it is at Voyagers on Ali' I Drive on Wednesday at 9am The Legends, both Dede Grease Bauer and Karis Meyers are just absolute smashing legends of the sport. So you want to come down if you are in Kona and that podcast.

Will also show up on this feed that you're listening to. So on Thursday morning. So you can still listen at home. Yes, yes.

So today we just landed. Well, I just, I just got to town yesterday.

We've been here for Two weeks in one day. Yeah.

You know, like, it hurts it a lot.

It hurts.

But I wanted to kind of give the lay of the land because today is Monday as we're recording this, and, and I think right now people have been asking about the vibes because this is the first year since 2019 that the men and women have raced together here on the Big Island. So. So we had Covid and then we've done the splits.

Then one year in 2022, we had the two day event which no one on the Ironman staff actually wants to revisit ever again, rightfully so I feel.

Like there's some trauma there. Yeah.

And this is the first year. And I will say that just in chatting with people who came by the booth and just chatting, people are happy. I think people are happy that the.

Race is back here and that the.

Men and women are racing together. But along with that, I want to drop a few stats that Ironman sends amazing stats.

Give us the stats, Carrie.

All right, so just, just to kind of level set with everything here. This year, there are 2,548 athletes that are racing here, and that includes the pros. And of those 2,548 athletes, 689 of them are female.

That is roughly 27% of the field.

So.

Well, and a quarter of the field for comparison. It was in 2019, the last time we had the race together. There were 28% women.

Yeah.

So.

And for a while there, honestly for our listeners will probably be aware, during the qualifying period, period, it seemed like it might be 20% because of the way they did that performance based qualifying. And so I'm not exactly sure how they managed to get to that 27%. But I mean, kudos to them because it did look, it was looking quite dire.

Not that 27 is good. You know, I will always stand by. You know, we should have the 50 men, 50 women.

If you're in, if you're the best in the world, you deserve to be here, regardless of whether women's performances have a steeper drop.

Yeah.

You know, and we talk about that. And later with Aaron Ayala. We talk about that as well.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, maybe some of that for those percentage points came from the fact that there are 300 legacy athletes racing here on the Big Island.

That's, that's a fair amount. So if Ironman is your lifestyle and your goal is to do the legacy program and do 12 races, that's. That's great.

That's your way in.

That's your way. 300 People racing this weekend are.

And I.

That means I need to still do five more of these things at some point in my life.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

You've cracked halfway, Carrie.

I'm getting. I'm getting there. And I.

So.

And then in the professional field, this was news to me, actually. You're like, duh. But there are 110 pros.

It might be less now because I think some people are always drop race week, but 54 of those are female pros and 56 are men. And I was shocked by that because honestly, I didn't realize that, like, they kept at the program spots. So that is like, that is your something.

We have some.

Thank you. We have some kind of win there.

Yeah, for sure. The 50 women Dakota actually held in this time of change. And we're going to be spending this entire episode on changes.

Oh, yeah. 54 Women in Kona.

Great.

Yes. Excellent. Just a couple more stats that I found that were interesting. The youngest athlete here is 18 female.

The oldest female is 79, and we hope to have her on the show.

Later on this week, trying to hunt her down.

We are. We are in progress. 46 Years old is the average age of 40 people that are here. And the largest female age group are 30 to 35 and 45 to 49.

Interesting.

I would love to dissect that a little bit.

When they're 35 to 39, they're raising kids.

Yes.

Is that what's happening, do we think?

Yeah. And 40 to 44.

Yeah.

That is prime child rearing age, which is something to look deeper at, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Something to look at. So those are some of the stats for. For what we're about to witness this week. We will report back more on Vibes as people start showing a little more.

Time with the vibes. Honestly, I didn't really get a read yet, so I'm, I'm. I'll get back to you.

Yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, speaking of women in the most popular age groups, Iron man launched its women's initiative, Woven last week. And so this week, well, today we have two guests and on the podcast to talk about it, which we're. We've been trying to figure out what it is. Yeah.

And then you know what it. Where it's going. And yes, we do know that we have questions for sure.

Yes, we have a lot of questions and some of them get answered in this episode today. And you know, at its. At the outset, Woven is a. A free online community for female triathletes to join and there will be education resources.

There will be activations at different races for you to participate in and meet other people that are a part of the Woven community. It is a big undertaking with Ironman, and so we tried to parse out some of it, and I think we did a good job today.

I think so, too. I'm very excited for these interviews.

So, first of all, we talked to Diana Burch, who is the managing director of North American and World championship event events. And we also talked to Dr. Aaron Ayala, who is our feisty host of the Women's Performance podcast. But she is also an expert ambassador with Woven.

So we talk to her later. Before we talk to Diana, I just want to thank our sponsors.

Yes. Wahoo Hedes and Orca. Thank you so much for actually providing the opportunity for us to forget you to be here for the 11th time.

Oh, my goodness. Yes, exactly. So, yeah, I talk to Diana every year, and I caught up with her earlier.

Diana, we have our annual interview. I'm so happy to be back here with you.

We're so happy to have you here. And I do. I kind of love this. This reconnect every year.

Exactly. Me too. But for our audience. I know, you know, you've been with Iron man for a long time.

Can you just take us through how you started and how you ended up.

In the role you're in now?

Oh, that's all.

Sorry.

Long story.

I know.

Long story, but I'll try to make it brief if I can, but I actually was here on vacation in 1990, and I stood on the seawall over there on race morning because I had heard the buzz about this event that was happening, and I had the opportunity to watch the swim start and immediately was like, I have to do that one day. Came back in 91 and in 92, moved here and started volunteering.

And then in 1995, I had the opportunity to cross the finish line on Ali' I Drive, which is a moment that I will never forget. From there, I received a job offer in 97 to work for the company. Worked for a few years, then went into the resort business here.

And then in 2003, Lou Friedland, who was the CEO at that time, said, hey, can you come back? We're going into the 25th anniversary. We want you to lead the way. And I was like, wow, that's like a dream job.

And so I came back and been doing it ever since.

Amazing.

Okay, I think you will like this based on what you just said, but on Wednesday, we're having Karen Smyers on our live podcast, and we're calling the podcast party like it's 1995. Sounds like that's a special year for you, too.

I love that.

And I have to tell you, there's some spectacular moments when you do the race, and one of them was when I had the opportunity to pass Karen Smyers and Paula Newby Frazier on the bike tours.

What?

Yeah, they were on the run and I was on the bike. So I clearly remember the year that Karen won. And she is. She's spectacular. Cannot wait to see her get inducted.

Yes, absolutely. She's being inducted into the Ironman hall of Fame, right?

That's correct. So Wednesday night she'll be inducted and just really happy to have her here.

She arrives this evening and so you'll see her throughout the event, celebrating.

And tell us what I'm curious about this. What is your race week like? Like, do you get nervous? Is it. Is it similar to the athletes or as, you know, as the woman in charge, what is it like?

So I'm really fortunate to have the position. I do. And I have worked for the company for a long time and worked hard and been able to be in this position now for some time. But it's not just me.

I'm just the fortunate one in this role. I have an incredible team of people that I. That I work with. And at the top are our regional director, Morgan Crescent.

We have two co assistant race directors for this race this year, Lena Reisenfeld and Mihea Akao, and they have teams that are surrounding them. And then on top of that, you have 5,000 volunteers that really come together and make it happen. But the week is crazy.

To answer your question, yes, I'm nervous. I don't think that there's a time, once it gets this busy, that I'm not and. Because you care. And I think that that's a lot of what you'll see.

The entire team, everybody cares so much about what they do in this brand and our sport, and so nerves are natural.

Absolutely.

Okay, so last week, Ironman announced Woven, its new women's initiative.

Okay.

First of all, we've, you know, around town, we sit at our booth in the morning, this morning, and. And people are asking us, what is it? And we've been struggling to kind of define what it is. So in your words, what is Woven?

Well, I think that the biggest thing. And you talk about being woven, it's women coming together.

And it's an opportunity for us as women to all come together, support each other, be there in this community to help grow the sport. And I don't think, you know, one of the things that it shouldn't be looked at as this is Ironman's. It should be looked at as this is all of ours.

And it's a place for people to listen, for people to come together in community. And so that's one of the things that we would really like to see is like, women come together, support it. It's amazing.

And you know this, Sarah, what we can do when we come together as one.

Yeah, absolutely. And so what's been the initial response to the launch?

It's been overwhelmingly positive because I think people do want to share their story. People have questions and that's essential for us and that's essential for us to grow.

And so I'd really encourage people go to the website, check things out, ask questions. We have over 30ambassadors that represent women from all over the place and all types and that's where we can really connect.

I think that if I see you, Sarah, you are so confident and you're this amazing woman in our sport, but you never know how somebody feels inside. We all have our challenges.

We all need somebody to talk to and this is that platform to talk to other women about whatever it is that you need to talk about.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, one of the things we do at Feisty too, also, like, it often revolves around community.

Like Carrie and I were just talking on the way down here when we do a course or we do run training programs and people can sign up and they do it together in community and that's really important.

And there's also like the actual tangible pieces of what it is, you know, like, so for us, we find when we're telling people what something is, if we say it's community, they're like, meh,.

What are those pieces that would for.

Someone, like connect the dots? Like, where would they find Woven would be a tangible thing. Where can they go? You know, what will they find on the website? Does that make sense?

Like, what are like the nitty gritty pieces?

And I think that that is going to start rolling out more and more. You can go through the ironman.com website. There is also, and I don't want to make a mistake and get the website wrong, so you'll have to share it.

But it's wovenndurance.com and so people can go to that website and they'll be rolling out more activities this week. And so I think it's a as far as what the schedule is. So there will be ambassadors in communities that will have activities.

They will formalize groups.

So let's say there seems to be a trend with this type of a question or people are looking for an answer to this, Then they'll also form committees to work on coming together of how do we pull together and how do we respond to that. But in the community, as you talk about, this is our community, there will be activities that people will launch, clubs that get together.

And whether it's a fun run or a shakeout run, but also just time to sit and talk story and have coffee.

Yeah, amazing. Okay, so as you know, as someone who's overseeing world championship events, what would be your hope for the outcomes for an initiative like Woven?

Like, looking five, ten years down the road, what do you want to see here in Kona? Or at 70.3 worlds, what do you want to see change?

Well, for me, I think it starts with our Ironman 70.3 and our Ironman races. But we obviously want to grow the sport.

We want women to be welcomed, to be inspired, to get excited about this sport, and we want to be there to support what those needs are. I think, you know, like last year here in Kona, we had a lactation station. And we're always working to try to find ways that make it more welcoming.

And Woven will take that and share those initiatives through other races, not just Ironman races, but it's an initiative we can use at races around the world, anywhere. And so we'll continue to do that. But the whole purpose is let's grow. We all want that.

And so, yeah, I mean, the reality, Sarah, one day we'll be 50, 50. But we've got to get women to get into the sport, to get into. Into Ironman 70.3, to get into the Ironman races.

It doesn't just start with the world championships. It has to start. We have to get people in. So right now, if you look across our brand, Ironman and Ironman 70.3, we're about 25% women.

So how do we as a team come together and build that?

Yeah, yeah.

And then, okay, we have seen.

I have to ask you this because we have seen some, like, healthy skepticism. You know, we had a couple times with Ironman, we've had false starts. So we had the women for try initiative kind of not continuing.

That doesn't mean it didn't do great things in the meantime. For sure. Like, just because something ends doesn't make it not good.

But what, you know, what is, how would you respond to that kind of Skepticism, like, what would you. How would Woven be different now?

So I agree with you women for try was great for its time. So let's take what we've learned, let's expand on it, let's listen to what people have to say, and let's grow.

I genuinely like, for me, when I look at, like, some of the team members that were behind this initiative, and, you know, PETA Bell, she's done an amazing job, but she leads with passion and heart, and this matters so much to her. This isn't a project. This isn't just part of her job.

This is a part of who she is and what she believes in as a past triathlete and an athlete in general. And so having somebody that's that passionate about it inspires me.

And my hope is, as they roll out Woven and the launch of Woven, we can all get inspired by that. And instead of having a little bit of healthy skepticism, be optimistic and on board, and let's go for it.

I'm here for the optimism for sure.

So I think what a lot of.

People don't know is that is the amount of research that went behind the scenes for years up until now, you know, so, like, I remember, you know, being shown all of the research even two years ago that you were doing well, that, you know, Ironman was doing to figure out what is it that women really need.

So there is a.

It feels like there's a strong foundation there.

There's a strong foundation in a genuine care. You know, you're. You know, we're really fortunate at Ironman. We have a strong team of leaders, of women leaders, and.

And they're very engaged in this. And that's, to me, like, it's so refreshing.

And I know that people don't always hear that or see that, but when you see somebody like PETA, who's a senior leader in our company, leading the charge, it's inspiring. And yes, she has done a tremendous amount of research. Does it mean we're going to get it all right out the gate?

No, but we're going to learn from it and we're going to grow and we're going to stay at it.

Cool. And so I know every world championship year has a theme. What's the theme for this year?

You and I are usually standing by the theme somewhere when we do this, but the theme is Ho', Olokahi, so it's unity. And part of what that came about as we thought about what the theme was gonna be, is we're coming back together for the first time.

In seven years, men and women will be racing together in Kona.

Oh, yeah.

Cause Covid, too.

Yes. So 2019 was our last 2020. We canceled 2021. We suspended and then moved to Utah. 22 Was. It's hard to say, two days of racing in Kona.

22 Was a lot.

22 Is a lot. And then 23, 24, 25. We've been in Nice and Kona, and coming back in 2026 to be together is a really exciting time. Going back to our root.

Going back to our roots, Sarah.

Yeah, yeah, I see that. And then last question. Oh, yes. You always, you know, represent kind of the local people here in Kona.

What would you like our audience to know being here, especially the people who are here for race week?

We are privileged to host the race here in Hawaii and on the Big Island. It's a blessing. It's not a right. And I think the biggest ask is respect Hawaii.

Respect.

Respect that this is people's homes. Follow the rules, do the road, and you know what? Live aloha and take the pono pledge.

Thank you so much, Diana. It's been nice talking to you again.

Thank you, Sarah. Always good to see you.

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You know, Sarah, I don't know Diana like you know her, but I.

In talking and watching the two of you converse, I can just see, like, the bond that the two of you have, because it's like the both of you have just been through it. You've been in the sport for decades, and it. I really love seeing that.

The fact that there is a female who is at the helm of so many of these big events at Ironman.

Yes. Well. And I think, and I don't. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, but I think with, you know, when you.

When you're talking about change making or we're talking about wanting to see more women in leadership, more women racing Ironman, and we have those shared goals, like, I think Diana and I both understand that those are shared goals.

And when you look at how change making happens, you have women who, like myself, who like or like yourself, who work from the outside, you know, so who, like, advocate pushback, ask questions, you know, start their own podcast and say.

Whatever they want to say.

And then you have the women who work on the inside who are. Who take leadership positions and are oftentimes the only, you know, the only woman in the room, or they at least start there.

I think things have changed over the years for Diana. So there's a lot of. She is surrounded by a lot of great women. She talked about PETA when we were, when we chatted.

But, yeah, I think that there's a mutual respect there. Yes. Yeah, that's developed over the years for sure.

And as you both said in the interview, we are all optimists with Woven. We want nothing but the best for this program. And yet you still have some questions.

Of course. I think part of my optimism is definitely like, you have to ask the hard questions.

Right?

Like you can't. Optimism is not real unless you ask all the. Unless you're. Here's all the hard questions. I want these to be answered right.

Which often, oftentimes the answers are like, they come over time. It's not just Diana's not going to be able to tell me all the answers.

Our next guest, Aaron, is not going to be able to tell me how exactly it's going to go.

Right.

But we need to have those questions in mind because that's how you make something better. So I feel like that idea of trying to make things better is where that skepticism and the questioning comes in. Does that make sense?

Oh, it makes absolute sense.

Because the way they're unveiling Woven, as we'll hear in our next interview with Erin, is like, this isn't just something that is fully baked right now. It is a multi year program that has several arms attached to it.

And part of their strategy is to, their short term strategy is to try some of these initiatives, see what works, see what doesn't, and then change from there. And which is what gives me hope because they're not necessarily forcing a program on somebody.

Right.

They are allowing, we hope, the participants and the women who join Woven to help steer the direction that it eventually goes.

Yeah. That's what we heard both from Diana and from our next guest, Dr. Erin Ayala, who. Who describes herself as a spicy optimist,.

Which is great because that is how she handles this conversation.

Exactly. And she's a licensed psychologist and certified mental performance consultant.

And if you do not listen to the Women's performance Podcasts, one of our feisty podcasts, you definitely should. Erin is the host. She takes a deep dive into the science of performance, the mental side of performance. She sometimes interviews athletes as well.

And it's a wonderful podcast if you haven't listened to it.

So.

But yeah, she's a. She is one of the Woven expert ambassadors.

Right.

She's one of the 36 global ambassadors of this program.

And.

Almost immediately after they launched Woven and on Instagram, by the way, it is Woven Endurance. If you want to go to the website, it's ironman.com if you just search Woven or Google Woven, it will come up where you can join for free.

And almost immediately there were comments when.

Right.

On the post.

Yes. And so interesting because on the post on Iron Man. Iron Man's post.

Yes.

Yeah. And then Aaron, who we're going to hear from, also made a post which I wanted to read a little bit from. Because I think it was very on point.

Yes, right. She said the skepticism is earned. Right.

So in 2020, she talked about how Black Lives Matter posts were removed from Iron Man's Women for Tri group because they were too political. While all the. While the All Lives Matter posts stayed up and women left and they eventually. Ironman eventually shut down that group.

In 2023, Ironman announced an unnecessary trans athlete policy that was unsupported by Data plus an open division with no world championship slots. And then in Kona, they did a slot. They changed the way the slot.

We've talked.

We talked about this a lot. Last year when we were in Kona, they did a slot fix, quote unquote, that shrunk women's slots to match a start line that is still mostly men.

So that's why when women are skeptical about what's happening, it's the skepticism is earned. I loved how she said that.

And because we're not really sure what it looks like in practice yet, they're just unveiling it. And so some of the comments and why we named the episode this, it's like, is it just tampons in the porta potties?

Right.

Is it just having lipstick stations at the races or battle braiding for your hair? Like. Like, do I have to wear a woven bracelet? Like, what is.

Yeah, Like, I think that's where a lot of these women who have been in this sport for decades and who have seen the ups and the downs and the women for tri failure and some of these other initiatives that. That are like, yeah, I'm not buying it.

Right.

Like, if you. And also if you launch something and call the thing you're launching community, what really is that? Yeah, right.

Like, there's a.

There's a lack of clarity in just exactly what that is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we shall see. I also like how Aaron wrote on her post about how, like, a woman basically earns less and carries more of the household load.

We know that it's a cultural challenge and she can love triathlon and still find no room for it in her week. And that a race company cannot solve that. So. And the way I would put that is like, Iron man can't solve the patriarchy, you know, which is also true.

And. And we do talk to Aaron later about some of those connections. Like, what can. What actually can Iron man solve for?

Yes. So let's have a listen to this very spicy but very optimistic conversation with Dr. Aaron Ayala on Woven Aloha.

Aaron Aloha from Minnesota.

Minnesota.

Wishing I was there with you.

I wish you were here too.

Because nobody here seems to be able.

To explain exactly what woven is. And I feel like you might be able to give us a little insight.

On like I, you know, the one.

What is the one liner that is.

This is what woven is.

This is a free global community for women in triathlon that is taking a, we'll say, multi pronged effort and strategy to increase the number of women at the start and finish line at all Ironman events over time.

Over time. Is there a timeline? Is this a three to five year project for them?

Yeah. So this is where like there's. And we'll unpack a lot of this, you know, in this conversation they have a three tier strategy or kind of three phases.

And so the first phase is 2026 to 2028 and this is the phase where they're going to be testing and learning and evolving.

So.

And there are six target races which I can talk more about. It's called the Starting Line project.

They have six 70.3s across the world that they're targeting that are known to have a higher percentage of women and the infrastructure needed to support kind of this trial of different, like improved facilities, for example, improved race day experience. And I'll talk a little bit more about that. So that's 2026 to 2028.

And then 2028 to 2033 is scaling what works and implementing that across the Ironman ecosystem. And then 2033 is innovation and working more toward being on the edge and leading the sport of triathlon rather than trying to play catch up really.

I don't know if anyone is leading it right now, but trying to create the sport that we really want for women.

And I have a question for both of you actually Aaron and Sarah, because.

Sarah, you were on a committee as.

They were formulating what this was going to be. So you were on an advisory committee. Why desire, man? Why did they identify this as a huge need? It's a big project that is multi year.

But like so why do they even think it was a problem?

Yeah, in my experience, even though, you.

Know, at certain times we have questioned.

Like really whether Iron man cares at all about the, about the women, that that's actually not true. They do actually care very much about this. Like when you talk to people internally you realize, oh yeah, like did something that they care about.

And the fact that that women are only 17% of like the long distance Ironman races is a challenge and a problem for Them. And also I think from a business point of view, also there's an untapped market there. Right. Like, it's on from every angle.

A good thing to focus on it.

Okay. Okay.

And then when we were looking at 70.3, it's, you know, over the past four years, it's been 22 to 24% of the field is in the women's field. So also at the 70.3, which, you know, it's not surprising that the number decreases when you go from half to full.

And then they did a really nice job, which we can talk about this is identifying the biggest barriers and what creates that percentage. Though I'm sure most of the listeners are already answering that question.

Yeah. The two that come to mind are just time and resources.

Yep.

Child, childcare, taking off work.

Yeah.

Being the primary caregiver in your household.

So.

Yeah, I can certainly see that. Yeah.

And I think we've found. They've found before. They found as well in the research that, like, women are more likely to be a one and done type of Ironman athletes.

So it's like that kind of Mount Everest goal for them that they check the box and then move on to something else, which also is just a choice.

Right.

Like, in some ways it's like, okay, now you. Now you want to do sprint distances. Great.

You know.

Yes.

Because they are forgetting that it does cost a thousand dollars to register for an Ironman, which doesn't include any of the other costs associated with travel and lodging and training and nutrition and everything else. Certainly.

Yeah. And I think that's one thing that's interesting is. I mean, they're actually talking about how.

I mean, the amount of research that they did behind, I think is. Has been overlooked. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. I mean, you know, it's the nature of the timing and Kona excitement.

But they've got a really nice. For anyone who wants to dig deeper, a strategy, action kind of plan that you can find on the Woven website. And they talk about the.

Essentially the woman's journey through triathlon and Ironman. And it's really important. Like, they're trying to address all of those things.

And the final part of the journey is returning so that it's not that one and done.

Right.

And then the very beginning is just like visualizing the pathway and that representation matters and seeing it as actually like a thing that women do because two thirds of Ironman finishers get into it, myself included, from friends or family.

And so then it's kind of if we build this community, then it can feed itself, assuming the race day experience is a good one and women have the resources needed to thrive and to succeed.

So they announced this just a couple of days ago and unveiled it. And there is a lot of talk on the streets of what is it? What are we supposed to be doing, how do I sign up? Et cetera, et cetera.

And I know that you, Erin, posted about the announcement and very quickly you took a look at some of the comments that people were leaving on the Instagram announcement and probably other outlets as well, and it wasn't all, yay, women, rah, rah, look at us go. It was very critical. So what were you seeing in the comments from women that gave you pause and look at this through a more critical lens?

Yeah, there's a lot of context, I think, and it's really interesting because I entered the triathlon world in 2013 and was really active in triathlon until 2016.

And then over the past decade has been, I've been much more focused on cycling and a lot has happened in the past decade in triathlon with these conversations. And that's what lit up the threads.

And so a lot of the comments were talking about their experiences, essentially watching Ironman stumble before in trying to kind of remedy this situation, only to be disappointed or underwhelmed. And so there was this really kind of strong theme of I'll believe it when I see it.

And then there was another big undercurrent as well, of like, okay, well we need like entry fee, like scholarships. We need to actually address the money.

We need to address, like, we need have a better deferral policy, for example, to accommodate, you know, illness, pregnancy, miscarriage or pregnancy loss, family crises, domestic violence, like, you name it. Like, we need to think about the actual nitty gritty circumstances.

And so when you juxtapose those needs against the social media launch, I think a lot of women felt like it was another kind of performative here we go again.

Without realizing how much research has really been done underneath the hood to try to figure out how can we actually address this at a systematic level.

Yeah, like when you say Ironman stumbled like this, it's not just one stumble. It's kind of like again and again.

You know, so when we in like.

2015, 2016, When we were asking for.

Equal slots for the women in Kona, you know, they created women for try.

To try to encourage more women to.

Come, then they canceled women for try. Then they, you mentioned it in your.

Post, shut down the Women for try.

Facebook page because of some Black Lives Matter, you know, comments when really, like, really shutting down black women's voices and saying that that was political at the time. And then, you know, and then it was, oh, women get their own race. Okay. So we had our own world championship race for four years, right?

Well, three and a half, kind of.

Because there were still some age group.

Men in 2022, you know, and then it's like, oh, now we're not doing that anymore for you. Now we're cutting down the number of slots women get. Oh, now you are back to under.

30% Of the race.

So it. There is this like kind of their receipts, your span of like, stop start.

Yes.

So it's no wonder that people are.

A little bit like, okay, here we go again.

But I do also agree with you that.

That there is like, that deeper research. Like, I was very impressed by how.

Thorough it was how many women they had surveyed from different sports, not just from triathlon, but, like, from, like, communities that were tangential to triathlon. So they might have been tri curious or done one or not committed, you know, and so.

And I do feel like some of the results coming out of that and the things that they. It was a very multilayered kind of approach underneath, you know, like, everything from.

Like, tampons and bathrooms and.

And breastfeeding stations to like, oh, we need the community piece. We need, you know, we need access to coaches. We need to hold open slots for women to sign up for races. Like, I do feel like they run the rate.

They ran the gamut pretty much.

Except the slots for world championships.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think one of the things that gave me pause were people that were just saying, I'm already a part of a community. I'm already part of my local tri team. Those who are already engaged in the sport, is it for them? Is it not for them? And if it's.

If it is for them, how can they benefit?

Yeah, good question. I think it's really tough because. And one of the things I think to kind of step back and look at the bigger picture here, the comments from the.

I'll just call them the skeptics are so valuable. And there was a research study that was done a number of years ago by. It's kind of a workplace engagement organization company called Culture Amp.

And they essentially found that the most valuable employees, or kind of the MVPs, were the ones who are most open about their dissatisfaction before leaving. So they call them their regrettable exits or regrettable losses.

And I think we can take that and apply it to the situation where the very engaged women are going to be skeptical and they're going to be voicing their opinions and we have to listen because they're going to be those regrettable exits. Because if this doesn't, like, if they don't see the changes or the improvements that come from this over time.

Right.

It's not going to be done in one season, then I think they're going to be ready to move on to their next thing or just kind of like, whatever. Like, I've got my own community. I've figured out how this works for me. Like, I don't need this corporation to support me and my community.

So how can they benefit? Race day experience should improve.

And they've done a lot in terms of essentially think of it as like activations at the event and just having a stronger sense of actual community and a place for women to go and then having more specific events and panels and resources for women. And we're already seeing these changes on the website, more blogs and content specific to women and the female athlete experience.

They're planning webinars already with the seven guest expert or expert ambassadors and getting more of this information out to all women. And it's going to be more technical or more advanced for some and then also beginner friendly.

So they're also targeting kind of these different parts of the client journey to support women who are just at the beginning and considering it and being like, well, I'm not really that much of an athlete. That's not for me.

Who don't yet have the community and targeting the women who have done, you know, 26 full Ironman events and who have been doing this for years and you know, who, who know this and they can still learn. So that's the goal.

Yeah.

And you're an expert ambassador, right?

Correct.

What made you want to be involved and what does that mean really?

What does expert ambassador mean?

Yeah, so really as like expert ambassador, it's a matter of like, you know, being an ambassador and supporting the work that they're doing and contributing really actively to the communities. Right. So it could be, you know, active on social media, supporting other women in the kind of Ironman ecosystem through social media.

Strava, they also have a free Strava community. And so it's contributing to that and you know, just essentially being a part of the movement in the conversation.

And then as an expert ambassador, I'm also going to be doing webinars.

I'm creating blog content and articles and then I'm also going to be at some of the Starting line project events where we'll have some events like panels to support the race day experience. So for example, for like Waco, realize this swim was canceled, but they had like a open water swim anxiety kind of lesson activation.

Um, so I think you're going to see more on site experiences from the ambassadors, whether expert or athlete ambassadors.

That sounds great because one of the things that I heard just rumbling on the street was we don't need a Lipstick station.

Right.

And we need actual information and support. And so it does sound like the expert panel that they brought in is on point with that. And is that why you decided to join in with this?

Because you see the real benefit of what this could do for the sport?

Yeah, I was torn because I was like, I don't need one more thing to do, like why am I.

And then I thought more about it and I thought about my personal value system and it's like, why wouldn't I take advantage of this opportunity to have a seat at the table?

And I would much rather contribute from the inside and push from the inside, then criticize from the outside and point fingers when I know that I've got a genuine skill set and I can actively contribute. I've got, you know, published research on this. The research that I've published aligns with what they found in their research.

So we're on the same page there. And then, you know, the reach of Ironman is huge.

And so like, if I want to be a part of the change that I need to be able to claim a seat at the table. And so part of it is just kind of my personal mission and value system. I was like, I'm really passionate about this work. Let's give it a shot.

And I do believe that they're asking the right questions and ruling this out in a way where they're looking at, for example, they know that like we can't create a five year plan without incorporating the fact that we're going to make mistakes along the way and we're going to learn from them and then reiterate based and recalibrate based off of the experiences. So okay, maybe we try a Lipstick Station. Not saying they will, but. And then like, oh, that didn't work.

We're not going to do that for the rest of the races. Let's try something else. Right? Okay. Maybe it's not tampons. Maybe we also need pads. Or maybe we have to think about other things.

Right.

Or maybe it's not childcare.

And so one example I'll provide with the, the some of the comments and things I've been hearing, they're talking about setting aside and prioritizing race registrations for women. I think it's great. And I've heard women say, and I totally get this, we don't need early race registration, we need late.

Because what happens when I get sick or injured or life gets messy and I'm the one running the household and then I can't travel or I don't have the time because I'm taking care of my parents or this or that.

So it's like they don't want to make a commitment nine months from now because they don't know where their family is going to be or what they're they're going to have to show up for in nine months. So I think those are the types of changes that I would love to see them make.

That's great. That's great. So what, what does an athlete have to do right now to join? And we should let it be known that this is a free community.

Yep.

There is no buy in.

And I was just looking online.

If you go to Ironman or if you just search Ironman Woven, it will take you to the splash page where you can register and learn more about it. And also what is their Instagram handle I believe is Woven Endurance.

Yep.

Correct.

Yeah.

And that's where people can go and sign up. And I do want to direct people to your post or, and or your substack where you really dug into the nuances of it. Yeah.

Acknowledging that Carrie was trying to wrap up. I'm gonna die. I'm gonna take a left turn here because I think I feel like something.

We missed in this conversation and that.

A conversation I really want to have was some of that stuff that you wrote in the post. And like, I feel like you did a great job of balancing this support for the new initiative.

The ways that you're getting involved, like you said, you're taking your seat at the table, you know, doing all the right things. But also you had some level of like healthy criticism and some great thoughts there.

From your point of view, what is missing in what they have launched so far?

Yeah, I think so.

There's like the very meta component of like a woman who earns less and carries more of the household load and has literally fewer hours to herself in the workweek. Like Ironman can't fix that.

Like she could love the sport and she could want to do it, but like we can't Ironman unfortunately can't fix the patriarchy and can't fix gender disparities or any of these other barriers that are very, very, very systemic. So that needs to be a part of the conversation. Yeah, Can I.

Sorry, go ahead.

Yeah.

I just, I really want it.

When you made that point and I.

Read it in your post, I, I.

Really want to connect that part to the world championship slots. Right. Because basically the slots right now are given out on a performance basis. And if you have less time to.

Train, less, you know, less money, you're.

Doing more of the childcare, you're busier, you may be more stressed and you're training for a world championship, you or you're training to try to get to a world championship, your performance, relatively speaking, might not be as good as your male counterparts, but you still deserve to be there. If you are, you know, if you're the fifth best and the fifth best guy gets to go, you should get to go.

And so I feel like while you're absolutely right, like Ironman cannot fix the patriarchy, Ironman can decide how it wants.

To engage with that. Yes.

Right. And by, by making those slots completely performance based, you're not taking into account all the things that we've been talking about.

Right.

And I think what, so then what we can ask, and this is what, this is where I start to get more skeptical, which I'll be very open about, is we need Ironman to stop adding to those barriers or reinforcing or like further contributing to them and then lowering the ones that they can actually lower.

Right.

And so like we think about whether it's, you know, childcare, scholarships, you know, just accessibility of information is going to be huge. So it's, this is about so much more than tampons. Right. It's.

I think another thing that is a huge part of the conversation that touches me very closely is the trans athlete conversation and non binary athletes.

And so it's going to be figuring out what does that mean when we talk about the woman's experience, are we also including non binary folks who are assigned female at birth? And, and there's a lot of nuance there.

And this is where it got really sticky on social media because there are so many different like factors to include.

And one of the biggest things is people were, you know, debating about like the registration form to sign up for Woven, like it didn't have a spot for non binary. I think it said like is essentially like other.

But one of the biggest things is we cannot imply that we're going to create this really inclusive community if there isn't an infrastructure to support it and if there aren't like safety guidelines and discrimination and harassment policies that are actually adhered to and followed. Like, there's a lot of work that has to happen behind the scenes.

So one, they have to decide who's a part of this campaign, who do we want involved, and then appropriately, like, let them know that we want them there.

And if we do, we have to be ready to fully support them, including when it means traveling internationally, for example, or parts of the country that may be safer than others. Like, so there's. That's where I started to get more skeptical of, like, we need to think about.

This isn't just like the language of saying this is welcome to all women and non binary athletes. Like, we need to dig deeper and think about what that means and how we're going to support them.

So to wrap up the conversation, let it be. This is a free community. We want women to join this community.

So is the best way to go.

To Ironman or try to find them on Strava or find them on their Instagram? Where is the best place to direct women to learn more about Woven?

Yeah, best place will be going to their website where they can sign up. Um, and then when you sign up, then you'll get more information about how to join this drava community.

You'll also get more information about upcoming, like webinars, activations, different events. Um, they're already having activations for the races through 2026.

They've got different things going with some of the ambassadors who already plan to be there. Right. So definitely the email list is going to be the best way and then social media for the vibes. For the vibes.

For the vibes.

Excellent. Well, Erin, thank you so much for joining us and I look forward to talking you again to you again at some point very soon.

Likely.

Thank you. Thank you.

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So basically Carrie, I feel like with woven it's a wait and see situation.

Yeah.

Well while standing by optimistically obviously. Yes.

And you know you were in early conversations about it and, and I think what as you talked about this with both Diana and Erin is that what gets lost to the public is this isn't a haphazard launch of a program. There are now several years of research that they did based on surveys to 10,000 athletes.

And so that I'm giving a lot of credit to Ironman for is to really asking hard questions.

Yeah, that's, that's one thing that unfortunately doesn't come through when you launch something and call it community.

Yeah.

And say join a free group because what really is that.

But actually yeah, it goes back at least two years when I was part of an advisory group I suppose that looked at where they showed me all the data and asked for feedback, you know, and they had done a ton of research and I think they really do have a much better and More deeper, multi pronged understanding of some of the challenges and what it will take to actually get more women into the sport.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, again, let's wait and see. But we'd love to know what you think about woven.

If you have been following at all, highly suggest you follow them at Woven Endurance on Instagram. And if you are interested in joining the free community, just go to ironman.com forward/woven.

And once you sign up, as I did the other day, you are now sort of in the drip of education and. And already I'm receiving a lot of email. Not a lot. I think I've received one or two emails of like, what to do next?

Because they have a Strava community. And yeah, we, we shall see. I mean, as, as somebody who has loved this sport for 25 years, I'm.

Not going anywhere, right?

I'm just.

You're already woven in.

I'm woven and I'm also. Yeah, so I'm like, I'm just like, do I need to join another community?

I don't know.

We shall see. We shall see. But day one is day one. Day.

Yeah.

The sun just set as we were.

Recording and day one, Yes, a good one.

If, if you hear any background noise, we like to think it is the ocean that we're staring at right now. And the swimming pool that's down there with people splashing around. It might just be the outside air conditioner of our condo.

It might be.

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