It’s a Cover Crops 101 special on The AG Show - and we’ve got a couple of proper experts on hand to help.

Clive Wood from Frontier and AHDB’s Bek Hirstman join us to break it all down, getting you up to speed on the basics of cover crops (yes, all those non-harvested plants that can provide benefits to a rotation).

We dig into what they actually do, the different types out there and - crucially - how to choose the right ones without causing yourself headaches further down the line.

We're also asking what’s going on with finished cattle prices - why are they dropping and is there more to come? And we check in on how red meat and dairy are performing on foodservice menus right now.

Plus, who could have been part of the farmers choir that won Britain's Got Talent?

SOME USEFUL BITS (FROM AHDB & BEYOND)

Home - Cover Crops Guide

An introduction to cover crops | AHDB

Frontier Agriculture

Why are finished cattle prices falling and will this continue? Beef market update | AHDB

Red meat in foodservice: The trends shaping today’s menus | AHDB

Dairy in foodservice: The trends shaping today’s menus | AHDB

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So, Hannah, you're married to someone who is almost famous, is that correct?

Yeah. So Andy was in the Hawkstone beer adverts, so he was in like the OG Choir if you like.

But we were busy when the rehearsals and stuff were going on for Britain's Got Talent because, you know, getting married and stuff. So he unfortunately couldn't be involved in the now winning choir. If Britain's Got Talent, you could argue.

He won the bigger prize by marrying you.

Oh, thanks. Yeah, good line. I like to think so.

Hi, I'm Charlotte Forkes-Rees.

And I'm Hannah Clarke. And welcome back to the The Ag Show.

Coming up this week, it's cover crops 101. As we get you up to speed with the basics for all those non harvested plants, we'll be breaking down the.

Key functions, the different crop types, and importantly, how to make the right choices without storing up problems for further down the line.

I think that's the important part of understanding how the mixtures come together. We can create problems with cover crops if we're not careful in terms of how we select the species and how they fit into the rotation.

I'll also be delving into the world of food service, looking at menu trends for red meat and dairy, and I'll.

Be asking why we've seen reductions in Finnish cattle prices. And importantly, will this continue?

A reminder, new episodes of the Ag show drop every Wednesday at midday. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

Don't forget we've also got audio and video versions for every show. Just subscribe to make sure you don't.

Miss an episode and get in touch. We do love to hear from you. Don't comment on any of our social posts or email agshowdb.org.

Right, we're getting properly stuck into cover crops now. Not just what they are, but what they do for our system.

Because whether it's improving soil structure, holding nutrients, or bringing in beneficial insects, there's a lot going on under the surface here. Literally. See what I did there?

And to help us, and hopefully avoid Hannah and I slipping into too many patterns, we are joined a couple of experts. Bec Hersman, AHDB's Agronomy and Environment Manager, as well as Clive Wood from Frontier and who's also on our Cover Crops Guide Steering committee.

Now, if they don't know some of the answers to these, we are definitely in trouble, because they know a lot. So let's start something simple. Bec. What jobs are cover crops doing out in our fields?

They do a variety of jobs, really it sort of almost boils down to what you need them to do. They can solve a variety of problems.

You've got soil structure issues, some with some of the big roots, the big thick tap roots can help break up those compaction issues.

You can get some like legumes that have got nitrogen fixing nodules on the roots that can help bring some of that extra nutrition point into the soil. Most specifically, as you sort of leave them there to break down in the soil afterwards, they can release that back into the soil.

They can attract in like said beneficial insects that can help pollinate your other crops and can be natural predators of the pests of some of the main cash crops.

So that then sounds like it was very simple for me to ask the question, but actually to get an answer and know exactly everything it can do. Not simple at all. But you mentioned in the soil structure, and that is a term that does get thrown around a lot, doesn't it?

What changes are farmers realistically going to see when we are talking about soil structure?

Again, it's not necessarily an immediate fix from all of the issues that could be in there. You know, if you're coming into a field where you've got some big compaction issues, you've not got a great soil structure.

It's really tight and hard to work. It struggles with water, logging and bits like that.

If you bring in some of those crops with the big roots, that will really help create some channels in there and get some air spaces in.

And that's an important point, having plenty of air spaces in your soil as well, because it gives you space for those organisms that live in there to move around and get stuff moving and help them break down the organic matter. But air is important for plant roots as well.

We also hear, I guess, erosion trapping nutrients. What kind of role can cover crops play in reducing sort of the losses and keeping things where they're meant to be?

Well, you know, over the last.

I've been involved in cover crops now for probably about 20 years from the point when we didn't really talk about the soil much and we didn't talk about COVID crops very much.

We had a very difficult season, a very strange winter, very cold, very dry, and then followed by a lot of wet in the spring and we lost a lot of crops and Farmers really started to look at cover crops then. I wouldn't say that was a launch because we've had farmers that have been involved in cover crops for many decades.

And I think what we realized when we put the COVID crops guide together, the team, we probably knew quite a bit about COVID crops, but our clients, our customers, our farmers probably knew a lot less and we'd maybe overestimated what they actually did know. So I think what we've achieved since then is progress.

We certainly have the knowledge now of the plants that are assisting us with roots, with nutrient capture.

And I think the other thing that I've found as I've gone through this journey is that we've worked with quite a lot of supply chain companies that have their own goals, their own set of aims and goals that they're trying to achieve. And some of them might be water companies. Nutrient capture.

They want to keep nutrient in the field, we all do, at the price that nitrogen is at the moment. We all want to retain nutrient, but we also want to make that nutrient valuable for the crop that we're growing.

And the following crops, I think that's where it's certainly evolved.

We obviously said that there are obviously different root types that you'd have in there, which would then make me think we're going to have different types of COVID crops that you'll be using. And obviously each will have that different role.

So what are the different types of or what are the main categories of COVID crops and could you pick out some of the key characteristics that they would bring as to why you would consider using them?

Yeah. So you've got sort of leguminous cover crops, which are the ones that are going to have those nitrogen fixing nodules on their root structures.

The other ones that are attractive for building that, that nutrient in the soil, got brassicas in there. They tend to have quite a thick root and they're quite good at breaking up some of those soil structures.

But they also provide feeding options if you want to sort of like graze livestock on there.

Things like turnips and kales are good for farmers wanting to put sheep on there and give them a nutrient source other than having to pay to import feed onto the farm. You can get wildflowers, you can get grasses, herbs.

I mean I say herbs, I don't mean like tarragon, but they fall into sort of a category that we class them as a herb.

Sometimes a coriander will fit in there, but then you move into stuff like plantains and other bits like that that most people probably would see as perhaps a weed in some scenarios.

Over the years, I think we've understood the learning process of how different cover crops come together. The root structures. You know, in the early days, we didn't really know what a tillage radish was.

We had a number of radish species that could probably root deeper than others.

Then along came the breeders, which specifically bred varieties of radish that could go much deeper, almost to the point where if they weren't used carefully, you could go into the drainage system and cause problems where the spade came in, really, that people could actually dig down and find out what was going on.

But, you know, as things have evolved, you're bringing in mixtures like Phacelia, you know, Phacelia, I think, is probably one of, certainly one of my number one cover crop species.

With the tillage radish, with the deep rooting radish allows us, and some of the cereals that we've used, such as the black oat, the common oat, the UK common oat and rye, you know, we start to bring in those as a mix and they're all specifically going for something in that mix. You know, rye might be a hunter scavenger, A P and K, phosphate and potash, very effective at that.

Using the tillage radish to go very deep, hopefully not too deep. So it actually creates a problem. And using the phaselia to open up the soil and deflocculate the soil, it allows us to.

I've often looked at cover crops and looked at a number of implements, almost like a number of implements parked on the headland. And we're bringing different implements in to achieve different goals.

And I think that's the important part of understanding how the mixtures come together.

And as I said earlier, we can create problems with COVID crops if we're not careful in terms of how we select the species and how they fit into the rotation and how we're going to actually, the benefits and goals that we're looking at from that, and probably more importantly, the farmer's goals and his rotation and some of his clients, some of his supply chain customers are critical to be able to achieve that end goal.

So it sounds like it's not a one size fits all. It's not just go and grab this off the shelf, put it on and that will work for you.

And there obviously are a number of potential watch outs and risks.

So what would you say if someone was going to be, you know, looking tomorrow what they're going to be, you know, putting down what would be the top three things that you would be looking out for as like watch points before they make any of their decisions.

There's brassicas as a, a selection within the COVID crops beauties. But you know, as a whole, oil, seed, rape and other things like that are part of a rotation and they can be.

And clubroot is an associated problem that comes in there and that's sort of a pathogen that lives in the soil.

And instead of letting the plants grow their nice spindly roots, they all sort of end up all gnarly and knobbly and not very effective, which then obviously has an impact on how well your plants can grow.

So if you include brassicas in your cover crop and you've got brassicas in your rotation, you could be at risk of, you know, increasing those problems in the soil there.

Similarly, I know that depending on some of your suppliers within your rotation, there can be issues with some of the species being used, particularly if you're looking at using vining peas. Some species are going to need careful selection because they can build up other problems in pathogens, nematodes, something like that in the soil.

That will then have an impact on the peacock that you might be growing, which then your contractors, like Bird's Eye, are just not going to be interested in at all. You should definitely be careful looking across the whole rotation, not even just necessarily the following crop. As to what might be an impact.

In there, that's key, Beck. It really is. And this is where I think over the years we, maybe we were learning, everybody was learning about this.

I often talk to groups, we're in small groups in our own area of small tendency, 12 farmer groups. And I think I learn as much from them as they probably learned from us.

But we are seeing the resilience in the soil starting to give the results in terms of maintained yield and quality through these difficult periods.

And I think that's where you start to realize that we're starting to get the benefits of this, that they are maintaining yield and quality through these highs and lows.

So what I'm taking from this is cover crops is not as simple as it might lead you to think when you first start talking about it. There are lots of considerations that you've got to put in place.

And also you might not see the benefits of them this season, next season, but in the long term, it's certainly going to help the resilience that you've got on farm. So Bec and Clive are both sticking around and we are going to chat some more about COVID crops later on in the eggshow. It's the Ag show.

And now it's back to one of Hannah and I's favourite parts of the show. And that's discussing some of the bits which we have seen in the news. And this week is a little bit of a special one, isn't it, Hannah?

Yeah. So we've got a few chunkier pieces, I suppose, that we've put out recently.

The first one I put out last week, and it's basically a piece that digs into why we've seen reductions in cattle prices. So big news recently, we've seen reductions in Finnish cattle prices over the last few months. Really?

Prices have been falling since the start of the year. There's several reasons for why this has happened, but a big part of the price shift comes down to demand.

So we've seen that price inflation be transmitted from the farm gate to the shelf that has affected consumers purchasing in the category, and I would say probably the speed of that price transmission has been a key factor here. So we know that consumers are relatively sensitive to dramatic price changes and we have seen inflation really ramp up in the category.

Prices can rise, but a more stable position and it may be less noticeable to consumers. So there's probably more stability there when prices are rising at a slower rate.

But we've seen that really speed up over the last year or so, and we've talked about this at length previously and we've got a lot of pieces online that go into the detail.

But we've seen consumers adjust how they buy beef, so they've either traded down pack sizes or cut back altogether or change the composition of what they're putting in their basket.

Now, at the same time, on the supply side, we obviously put forecasts out on cattle supply and if you look at the data, it would still suggest that that core availability of cattle is still structurally on the tight side because of what we've seen with previous moves in the dairy and suckler herd. But this year we've seen, and last year as well, we've seen really high and heavy carcass weights.

And so that has offset the amount of animals in the supply chain. Kill is still down, but the weight of those animals is heavier. And so that's put more beef on the market.

And that's hit at a time when we've got that lower consumer demand and volumes are low across retail and food service. The other factor that's probably worth mentioning is international trade. So imports are a key part of the beef market.

So we call ourselves a net importer of beef. By that I mean we import more than we export.

Because of the size of our market, we can't produce enough and there's carcass balance and all the rest of it. We need to import, you know, more cuts that we eat because we don't produce enough.

Now if you look at the amount of beef that's coming in, we have seen overall volumes grow, but that is really coming from more competitive suppliers.

And there's a few reasons, I suppose, behind that trade deals, maybe one of them global market dynamics also being another that makes the UK an attractive high value market. So we've seen more product coming in from particularly New Zealand, Australia as well.

They've grown their market share and that's, you know, kind of adding further pressure, particularly in the food service part of the market where so sourcing is probably more ambiguous. We know there is some Australian beef at retail, but that presence is quite small.

So it's probably most mostly hitting in that food service part of the sector.

So interestingly, UK beef exports have been strong, the performance has been good this year, but it's a smaller part of the market anyway and so it's not quite been enough to offset that domestic market. European pricing as well has been under pressure recently, so that's possibly affecting the value of our export. So there's a few factors at play.

We sort of go into the more detail in the article. We'll link to it in the show notes, but hopefully that gives a bit of an explanation as to why we've seen markets move the way they have.

If we think ahead. Now, we don't predict the cattle price, but we can talk about the factors that go behind that underlying cattle supply.

We're forecasting to still be tighter for this year, but the weights will be slow to adjust. And there's a few factors that would affect the weight of cattle coming to market. So we may see more beef on the market in the short term.

But interestingly, if you look at price inflation and Charlotte, you're more learned on this than I am. We've seen that rate of inflation come back ons figures would suggest that consumer price inflation has eased.

So the prices are still kind of rising, but the rate at which they're rising has slowed quite a bit in recent months. So that might mean more stability in pricing may support demand. We're also moving into summer weather. We've had some wicked hot weather recently.

Hopefully that comes to bear in demand figures for barbecues and all the rest of it. We've got sporting events later in the year as well. So hopefully there's a few positive signals for demand going forward.

But obviously we've got cost of living pressures and all the rest of it still playing on consumers minds. So a few things to watch. But on that topic we've talked about food service. Charlotte, you've got a piece on this very area.

Yeah, I mean I love talking about eating out because it makes me think of all the nice meals that I want to have out. But you're completely right, Hannah, in that consumers are feeling really quite sensitive I think is definitely the best word for it.

Because if I think about what I've been going out and doing, it's probably not eating out as much as I'd like to. And I don't know if that's the same for both of you.

Although producer Martin has just come back from holiday so he's done nothing but eat out for at least a week.

But what we do see is that particularly for those consumers that are feeling the pressure when it comes to finances and saying that it is getting that little bit worse, we've got 57% saying that they are going to cut back on eating out. So we are seeing some of this impact coming through. And overall within food service we have got spend down by half a percent year on year.

But what we do see is diners really do want to eat out. They just have to feel that those meals are worth it for them.

Now, red meat, they are seeing a little bit more variation and their share on menus is easing, particularly for beef and lamb. But this is some of that coming through with those cost pressures. So they're under pressure from cheaper proteins, particularly poultry.

And we've all seen a number of particularly fast food restaurants that are cropping up that are chicken focused and some of that is diverting some of that spend perhaps away from the red meat proteins. But red meat really does offer, particularly for operators, a huge amount of value. So your average meal, if you were going to go out and spend.

Any guesses on how much you would spend on a meal? Hannah?

Oh, 15 quid.

Pretty good. Hannah. £15 And 11 pence, that is. I didn't even prompt you on that.

But if we look and see for beef and for lamb, so average beef, can you give a guess on that since you did so well on an average dish?

22.

That closer on for lamb there than beef perhaps, but beef's at 17 pounds and 8 pence and lamb would be 26 pounds. 22. So they offer a huge amount of value for our operators.

But it's just showing that perhaps it needs that little bit more justification when it comes to getting people to go out and make these purchases. Now where we are seeing really clear growth is coming through cheese and through pork on menus. I love cheese, so I'm probably not the.

Well, I'm probably the best person to talk about it because it adds loads of flavor, it adds enjoyment and texture to a meal and it also increases the perceived value of a dish. So really strong there and then pork.

So actually it is one of the red meats that is seeing menu share growth at the moment and it's really being positioned as that value led and the innovative way that you can have red meat on a menu.

So seeing that really strong growth is coming through when the ingredients are used are balancing affordability, taste and perhaps that little bit something different, a little bit of excitement when you're out and eating out of home.

So when it also comes down to consumers looking for something that's perhaps that little bit different to justify the spend in the out of home market, what we see is that the formats as well that are being used for red meat and dairy are changing. We've seen that the red meats, particularly your beef and lamb, are commanding that higher average spend per dish compared to an average meal.

So what consumers are perhaps looking for and operators are responding to is offering dishes that are using perhaps these meals or these proteins in smaller portions.

So think perhaps having a halloumi and beef breakfast box, which I think sounds delicious and something I would not have thought of before, or it's things such as a curry. So have you ever heard of bunny chow before Hannah.

Bunny chow? No, that's a new one for me.

It is a South African curry that comes in like a hollowed out bread bowl, looks incredible, called bunny Chow.

Just finding different ways that you can perhaps utilize these proteins, it might be a little bit less in terms of the volumes that are going into there, but still means that those consumers can be enjoying our red meats in these out of home occasions. We're also seeing that the language that's being used on menus is having to evolve.

So perhaps it's saying that your item is stuffed with cheese or crusted with cheese and that's really appealing to consumers. We're also seeing that flavours are shifting. So lots of, I don't know, hot honey has been quite a trend for a while now, hasn't it?

But we're seeing that particularly when it comes to cheese and dairy, getting that balance of pickles and acidity is coming through really strongly on menus. It's all about that layering, having some contrast and that's looking like something that consumers are really leaning into.

And then something that I think is particularly important to us and our levy payers is coming around provenance.

Now some think that consumers probably if we were talking a couple of years ago, they would just want to be knowing quite, you know, generic claims, so traditional could be a great way to elevate prices on menus. Actually now that is kind of expected.

What they want is to have real specific details on that menu, whether it is the breed of the beef that you are eating, whether it's the name of that specific cheese. And unfortunately burrata is falling on menus a little bit. Considering that's one of my favourites to be having.

We need to have those clearer providence cues coming through on menus and that can really help with boosting how much consumers are prepared to spend on that meal out of home.

And we can't talk about eating at the moment, it feels like without talking about GLP1s, this is something that is going to be impacting on what people are eating out of home. And we're seeing that some operators are moving towards perhaps this health and mindful eating menu.

So whether that's prioritizing and really clearly labeling the protein content on menus, whether that's positioning a specific GLP1 friendly menu, they are trying to cater in the best way possible, possible to these emerging trends that consumers are seeing.

So bottom line, for operators utilize different providence claims, descriptors and any language that's really going to help elevate the dishes that you are trying to sell to that consumer because they are wanting, you know, to be enjoying eating out of home. They just need that little bit more justification for it. And there is very much still a place for red meat and dairy in the out of home market.

And if that has got your taste buds going.

We have got loads more insights on both my red meat and dairy articles on our website as well as Hannah's piece, so we'll make sure those are linked in our show notes. You are listening to the EXO with me, Charlotte, Hannah and producer Martin. Right, let's get back to talking about COVID crops.

We know they can work, but getting them right in practice is where things can fall down.

And there's some interesting work happening now to help farmers make better decisions, including tools and research that take some of the guesswork out.

Waiting patiently for us to come back to this topic is Clive Wood from Frontier, who helps steer HDB's cover crop guide as well as our very own Bec. So, guys, let's talk establishment. How much attention should cover crops get compared to regular cash crops?

They need just as much attention. They're not a second thought. You're trying to grow them for a purpose and to do something.

So they need to be put in as intentionally and looked after as intentionally as you would a cash crop. That being said, it is slightly different because the seeds are often a lot smaller than the regular crops that you might be putting in the ground.

They often don't need to go quite as deep, which, you know, might be why some people find that they've given it a go. It hasn't really worked as well as they'd hoped it might do. You know, it's not emerged properly.

It's looking a bit thin, it's looking a bit patchy, but with a bit of tweak and a bit of experience and a bit of practice, they can definitely get in, get going and get well away. But yeah, they definitely need looking after just the same.

What are the key things that farmers need to consider or importantly to get right at drilling to make a cover crop really shine and flourish, you're going.

To need that seed to soil contact a bit of soil moisture in there. Day, temperature and daylight hours are all important.

So I say the later you try to drill it, you're missing those critical daylight hours to really get things going and get that biomass building.

A couple of people I'm working with in East Yorkshire have started using stripper headers now to harvest the crop, which actually means the residues Much less it's leaving the straw in a microclimate. So the seed has a better way of establishing. There's no one rule for this.

And you know, we've had the most unbelievable establishment results from the most basic of equipment.

Maybe something like a set of disc Harris going across the ground and seed broadcast on and Cambridge rolled in and we've had some tremendous cover crops from that. And that is, you know, that's cheap, that's been very cheap, very effective, very fast and it's achieved results.

And yeah, so there's a lot of work going on by some very skilled farmers throughout the entire UK in terms of how to do this in the most effective way.

Yeah, and I suppose establishment is obviously the kind of the start of the journey. Well, maybe forward planning in your holistic farm system is the start of the journey, but establishment is, is a key step.

But of course, when we come to take the crop off the field, destruction is another process that I guess there is probably a bit of risk there as well. What, what sorts of things should we be considering with, you know, when we terminate?

Well, again, termination, I think it also depends on what your overall aim for your cover crop has been.

If you're looking to try and increase some of that organic matter and maybe allow some of those nutrients to release back into the soil, then you don't want it all to just be taken off and disappeared because it's that return of the crop and the breakdown of the organic matter within the soil that really provide those benefits there.

Obviously if you were looking at attracting in sort of beneficials or you were looking at it as a source of grazing material, then that's a different sort of method of destruction. Those will take off the biomass instead of returning it.

So I think it does really depend on what you were hoping to achieve from putting your cover crop in.

And the timing is also important because again, some of the species that you have included in your mix, if they flower, set seed and then they can return the seed back into the soil, which then can potentially leave them as a problem within the next cash crop.

So the benefits that they've given absolutely is there and it's beneficial, but you need to be watching what's going on and making sure you're not creating those future problems by missing your all important dates to sort of get those back out of the field.

Yeah, I think you summed it up earlier, Beck, about how important the crop should. It is a crop that you're growing and it's quite an important crop as prices of Nitrogen fluctuates up and down.

We've seen this over the last few years, had very highs, we've had acceptable prices, we go through this. But the establishment of this crop, it is a crop.

And when you start to look at bringing in the SFI schemes as well, and some of the requirements of the sfi, you know, you run into a set of rules and regulations that you should be presenting that crop at different stages within those SFI actions. That's very important. You know, we've got to look at the following crop. In the early days of COVID cropping, we had some dreadful mistakes.

Not mistakes that we knew we were making at the time, but you look at some of the COVID crops we were growing at the time were what I would call were the heavy lifters, the water companies. They want a cover crop which keeps nutrient in the field, not running off, down the drain or through the soil system.

But they also seem to come with what's called a very. It's a very high carbon to nitrogen ratio, which means that the release of that nutrient back to the following crop is very slow.

And that's where we would come along in the spring thinking, oh, we've captured 120kg of nitrogen, 40kg of phosphorus, 60kg of potassium. But we're going to have that available to the point it didn't happen because we still had that held up. So that's.

As time went forward, we learned that, well, bring sheep in, possibly cattle. I like the sheep because they're gentle on the field and they do seem to graze everything. But bring the sheep in.

And the heavy lifter carbon to nitrogen ratio comes back to that available on the COVID crops guide. It's quite clearly listed what is grazing compatible.

But, you know, you look at some of the buckwheats and linseeds, they're not particularly safe to livestock. You might get away with it. Nine times out of ten you will, but on the odd occasion, you don't. It can be quite serious.

So we just, you know, this was another learning curve that we brought into the COVID crops guide.

You mentioned the COVID crop guide there, Clive, which is an excellent segue into pointing our listeners and viewers to kind of some of the resources out there that they can use.

Because clearly from our brief discussion on the pod, this is a really intricate, detailed and nuanced subject and it needs a bit of expert advice and opinion in there.

Bec, could you just point us to some of the resources that we've got available for people that are looking to maybe get started or improve what they're doing with COVID cropping.

Yeah, sure. So, as Clive mentioned, there's the COVID Crops Guide, which runs through all sort of different ideas about helping you select your species.

Some handy hints and tips on establishment, some handy hints and tips on termination. So it sort of covers all of those aspects where you can learn all the different intricacies of where you want to do it.

The HDB website also has quite a few different web pages and different research projects that have been ongoing about COVID crops and where you might want to include them, where you might not want to include them, including some research that's currently ongoing about looking into that nutrient relief following cover of crops and how you might sort of determine what your nutrient release is in the crops following that and potentially, you know, what adjustments you might be able to make to your fertilizer regime in the following crops.

Clive, any other final words of wisdom or advice for anyone looking to get into cover cropping or change what they're doing?

Well, we realized a couple of years ago when we brought about 150 farmers together at Harrogate was that we did quite a few different questionnaires through the day and we chatted to different groups. And you know, what shocked me, I think, was the fact that we had a lot of people who didn't know what to choose and how to choose and when to choose.

And that was at the very start of us putting the COVID Crops Guide together.

I'm sure there's a lot more websites and there's some very good people out there in this industry that have got some great experience, but it is a great site to go to, to look at individual species and how they fit into the system. I think what we're finding in this, you know, the supply chain is intricate.

We've probably seen, and I think we've got to see, we're going to see more of it, problems with, shall we say, some of the SFI crops that have been used on farms.

We've got lots of different species that have gone into some of these mixtures and I think, you know, you start to think we're getting a problem here. Why are we getting a problem here? Because probably we've got species that maybe shouldn't have been used in that rotation.

But how can you influence that within a set of seed mixtures that need to be probably a little bit more tailored to individual farms and individual rotations. So I don't want to make this so complicated that it scares people off because it doesn't need to be like that.

But I think I've found that it's quite rare to be able to say, I'm just going to pick a bag of seed off the shelf and that's going to do my job. Because it invariably doesn't do the job.

You need specific planning with the growers and understanding of where they fit into the supply chain and maybe other people that are coming along to rent that land off that particular farmer as well through that five, six, seven, eight year period that we've got to be careful. We've just got to be very careful that we get the planning right.

Definitely. And we'll make sure to link to all those resources in the show. Notes for people interested to go and have a look.

But Bec, Clive, thank you so much for your time on the Ag Show. This has been a fascinating conversation. We can talk about it forever, but I think we should leave it there in the interest of time.

So thank you so much.

I think after all of that, Hannah, I've realized how little I knew about what I had thought was the simple topic of COVID crops. And, yeah, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

I think that is totally right. Yeah. It takes me back to my fleeting soil biology lectures at Harper and I work with animals, I work in red meat crops.

And plant science is just a whole other world. I think we've spent a lot of time under the soil in this episode, but speaking to those guys, it's. Yeah, it's a hugely complicated subject.

So speak to an expert, I think, is the. Is the summary of that. But, yeah, I've certainly learned a lot in the last half an hour.

Yeah, definitely.

And to be fair, if it are any topics out there that people want to brush up on, then please do get in touch with us. We can arrange the experts to come on and have a chat. It's [email protected]

We'll see you next week.

Bye.